Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
Keynote speaker Sussman, who tried to kill Common Lisp! And failed!!!
(Thanks tho big guy for lexical scope!)
But hurryhurryhurry: "On-site registrations will be accepted on a space
available basis." Translation: "Promise to keep your mouth shut and
we'll slip you a fiver to fill a seat."
"space available basis"?! For a Lisp conference?!! Usually things like
this keep me cheerful for a week, we're lookin at a good month here.
Hey, Rubytwit, got any conferences coming up?*
kenny
* Make sure space is available. PWUAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!*
** Die, Lisp! Die!!
*** Ambiguous, sorry. Could be the Cliki yobbos or the ALU "backup?
what's that?" geniuses.
Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
I'm suddenly sad that each day starts so early. Don't they know Lispers
will be partying late into the night?
Zach
Zach Beane wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
>
> I'm suddenly sad that each day starts so early. Don't they know Lispers
> will be partying late into the night?
>
ECLM was brutal. I led A Contingent of Worthies back into the pub after
the boat ride and we closed the joint (yayyyy!!!!) and had to be at the
first talk at 8am (wahhhhhhh!!!!!).
kt
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> Zach Beane wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
>>
>> I'm suddenly sad that each day starts so early. Don't they know Lispers
>> will be partying late into the night?
>>
>
> ECLM was brutal. I led A Contingent of Worthies back into the pub after
> the boat ride and we closed the joint (yayyyy!!!!) and had to be at the
> first talk at 8am (wahhhhhhh!!!!!).
So at the end Lisp has turned up into a simple excuse to drink alcohol
in some dirty pub?
I call that _decadence_.
On Mar 21, 2:38 pm, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribió:
>
> > Zach Beane wrote:
> >> Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>> Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
>
> >> I'm suddenly sad that each day starts so early. Don't they know Lispers
> >> will be partying late into the night?
>
> > ECLM was brutal. I led A Contingent of Worthies back into the pub after
> > the boat ride and we closed the joint (yayyyy!!!!) and had to be at the
> > first talk at 8am (wahhhhhhh!!!!!).
>
> So at the end Lisp has turned up into a simple excuse to drink alcohol
> in some dirty pub?
>
> I call that _decadence_.
I agree. That is *so* 80's :)
Cheers
--
Marco
Javier wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>> Zach Beane wrote:
>>> Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
>>> I'm suddenly sad that each day starts so early. Don't they know Lispers
>>> will be partying late into the night?
>>>
>> ECLM was brutal. I led A Contingent of Worthies back into the pub after
>> the boat ride and we closed the joint (yayyyy!!!!) and had to be at the
>> first talk at 8am (wahhhhhhh!!!!!).
>
> So at the end Lisp has turned up into a simple excuse to drink alcohol
> in some dirty pub?
We need an excuse? Cue Peggy Lee.
>
> I call that _decadence_.
>
Buzz kill.
kt
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>> So at the end Lisp has turned up into a simple excuse to drink alcohol
>> in some dirty pub?
>
> We need an excuse?
This explains everything.
> Cue Peggy Lee.
>
>>
>> I call that _decadence_.
>>
>
> Buzz kill.
>
> kt
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
>
> Keynote speaker Sussman, who tried to kill Common Lisp! And failed!!!
> (Thanks tho big guy for lexical scope!)
>
> But hurryhurryhurry: "On-site registrations will be accepted on a space
> available basis." Translation: "Promise to keep your mouth shut and
> we'll slip you a fiver to fill a seat."
>
> "space available basis"?! For a Lisp conference?!! Usually things like
> this keep me cheerful for a week, we're lookin at a good month here.
>
> Hey, Rubytwit, got any conferences coming up?*
>
> kenny
>
> * Make sure space is available. PWUAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!*
>
> ** Die, Lisp! Die!!
>
> *** Ambiguous, sorry. Could be the Cliki yobbos or the ALU "backup?
> what's that?" geniuses.
(You are making progress, but must introduce the subject more slowly...
if you go into it to fast, you are probably going to be ignored. This
kind of attack must be at least at the 5th level of the thread. You did
better with "Road to Clojure", and was very successful)
About the subject of the thread.... well, you don't need to tell Lisp to
die. It's already dead. All what people is doing here is just hitting
the corpse.
········@gmail.com wrote:
> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's already dead.
>
> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
Pascal
--
ELS'09: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
On 21 Mar, 13:52, Pascal Costanza <····@p-cos.net> wrote:
> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
We all (I think/hope) know the joke regarding the philosopher
Nietzsche (and God).
I intentionally changed it into a question, and I didn't mean to
offend anybody.
Javier: sorry if you feel offended, www is certainly the best place to
be misunderstood in any (im)possible sense...
(BTW, that's exactly the reason why I hate all of electronic
'talking':
Back in History, the Big Intelligences often took the time (and pain,
given the time) to meet *personally* the persons they profoundly
esteemed -- certainly for very good reasons.)
So, I don't really know you, Pascal, and I don't really know you,
Javier, and I don't really know anybody here.
Should be enough not to take anything too personally...
-PM
········@gmail.com writes:
> On 21 Mar, 13:52, Pascal Costanza <····@p-cos.net> wrote:
>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>
> We all (I think/hope) know the joke regarding the philosopher
> Nietzsche (and God).
>
> I intentionally changed it into a question, and I didn't mean to
> offend anybody.
> Javier: sorry if you feel offended, www is certainly the best place to
> be misunderstood in any (im)possible sense...
>
> (BTW, that's exactly the reason why I hate all of electronic
> 'talking':
> Back in History, the Big Intelligences often took the time (and pain,
> given the time) to meet *personally* the persons they profoundly
> esteemed -- certainly for very good reasons.)
That's not the impression I have. There was a lot of epistolic
activity, and even "mail-list" with people copying and distributing
interesting letters. There was more direct contact in capitals, but
interesting people were spread out all over Europe.
Nowadays, we also have conferences, so do we meet personnaly more
nowadays than three or two hundred years ago?
> So, I don't really know you, Pascal, and I don't really know you,
> Javier, and I don't really know anybody here.
> Should be enough not to take anything too personally...
Indeed, this is only ideas flowing.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
········@gmail.com escribi�:
> On 21 Mar, 13:52, Pascal Costanza <····@p-cos.net> wrote:
>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>
> We all (I think/hope) know the joke regarding the philosopher
> Nietzsche (and God).
>
> I intentionally changed it into a question, and I didn't mean to
> offend anybody.
> Javier: sorry if you feel offended, www is certainly the best place to
> be misunderstood in any (im)possible sense...
>
> (BTW, that's exactly the reason why I hate all of electronic
> 'talking':
> Back in History, the Big Intelligences often took the time (and pain,
> given the time) to meet *personally* the persons they profoundly
> esteemed -- certainly for very good reasons.)
>
> So, I don't really know you, Pascal, and I don't really know you,
> Javier, and I don't really know anybody here.
> Should be enough not to take anything too personally...
>
> -PM
>
You're probably right.
To continue on topic:
To be or not to be.... that's not the question about CL anymore. ;)
Javier wrote:
> ········@gmail.com escribi�:
>> On 21 Mar, 13:52, Pascal Costanza <····@p-cos.net> wrote:
>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>> We all (I think/hope) know the joke regarding the philosopher
>> Nietzsche (and God).
>>
>> I intentionally changed it into a question, and I didn't mean to
>> offend anybody.
>> Javier: sorry if you feel offended, www is certainly the best place to
>> be misunderstood in any (im)possible sense...
>>
>> (BTW, that's exactly the reason why I hate all of electronic
>> 'talking':
>> Back in History, the Big Intelligences often took the time (and pain,
>> given the time) to meet *personally* the persons they profoundly
>> esteemed -- certainly for very good reasons.)
>>
>> So, I don't really know you, Pascal, and I don't really know you,
>> Javier, and I don't really know anybody here.
>> Should be enough not to take anything too personally...
>>
>> -PM
>>
>
> You're probably right.
>
> To continue on topic:
>
> To be or not to be.... that's not the question about CL anymore. ;)
You are right. CL -- what did McCarthy call it, a happy local maximum?
-- has been discovered to be The Strange Attractor towards which
languages gaining mass are spiralling while those losing mass have been
thrown off soon to collapse from the loss of energy into black holes.
Is that what you meant?
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> Javier wrote:
>> To be or not to be.... that's not the question about CL anymore. ;)
>
> You are right. CL -- what did McCarthy call it, a happy local maximum?
> -- has been discovered to be The Strange Attractor towards which
> languages gaining mass are spiralling while those losing mass have been
> thrown off soon to collapse from the loss of energy into black holes.
>
> Is that what you meant?
Not really... your analogy is not very good.
Common Lisp is not gaining more mass than the rest of the languages, so
it is more susceptible to be eaten by a black hole.
On Mar 21, 4:31 pm, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribió:
>
> > Javier wrote:
> >> To be or not to be.... that's not the question about CL anymore. ;)
>
> > You are right. CL -- what did McCarthy call it, a happy local maximum?
> > -- has been discovered to be The Strange Attractor towards which
> > languages gaining mass are spiralling while those losing mass have been
> > thrown off soon to collapse from the loss of energy into black holes.
>
> > Is that what you meant?
>
> Not really... your analogy is not very good.
> Common Lisp is not gaining more mass than the rest of the languages, so
> it is more susceptible to be eaten by a black hole.
Judging by the number trolls of we're gaining, I suspect lisp will be
No 1 shortly.
bobi
http://letoverlambda.com
A black book of macros by Doug Hoyte, author who knows how to write
but doesn't know how to advertise his work.
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's already dead.
>>
>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>
> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
I dunno. The second question gives Javier at least 80 more years to
live (fairly generous); and if both questions have the same answer,
then its actually a backhanded blessing...
But in either case its was only marginally funny. And this discussion
killed any remaining hope for humor.
- Daniel
D Herring escribi�:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It's already dead.
>>>
>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>
>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>
> I dunno. The second question gives Javier at least 80 more years to
> live (fairly generous); and if both questions have the same answer, then
> its actually a backhanded blessing...
>
> But in either case its was only marginally funny. And this discussion
> killed any remaining hope for humor.
It's ok, I'm not afraid about death nor oldness, and I think everybody
should laugh at those. If they are inevitable, why worry?
It is funny that pls.mrjm considered that CL is going to be "alive" in
2090. I'm pretty sure that CL is not going to be used in 2090. In 2090,
computers are probably going to be auto-programmed. I don't think human
programmers will have any future past 2050 or so.
Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> D Herring escribi�:
>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>
>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>
>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>
>> I dunno. The second question gives Javier at least 80 more years to
>> live (fairly generous); and if both questions have the same answer, then
>> its actually a backhanded blessing...
>>
>> But in either case its was only marginally funny. And this discussion
>> killed any remaining hope for humor.
>
> It's ok, I'm not afraid about death nor oldness, and I think everybody
> should laugh at those. If they are inevitable, why worry?
>
> It is funny that pls.mrjm considered that CL is going to be "alive" in
> 2090. I'm pretty sure that CL is not going to be used in 2090. In 2090,
> computers are probably going to be auto-programmed. I don't think human
> programmers will have any future past 2050 or so.
The question is still will they be autoprogrammed in lisp or in java?
I bet for lisp.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Pascal J. Bourguignon escribi�:
> Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> D Herring escribi�:
>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>> I dunno. The second question gives Javier at least 80 more years to
>>> live (fairly generous); and if both questions have the same answer, then
>>> its actually a backhanded blessing...
>>>
>>> But in either case its was only marginally funny. And this discussion
>>> killed any remaining hope for humor.
>> It's ok, I'm not afraid about death nor oldness, and I think everybody
>> should laugh at those. If they are inevitable, why worry?
>>
>> It is funny that pls.mrjm considered that CL is going to be "alive" in
>> 2090. I'm pretty sure that CL is not going to be used in 2090. In 2090,
>> computers are probably going to be auto-programmed. I don't think human
>> programmers will have any future past 2050 or so.
>
> The question is still will they be autoprogrammed in lisp or in java?
> I bet for lisp.
>
>
They'll be programmed in pure binary code.
A machine is surely not going to be concerned about dynamic variables,
nor about the need for macros, or things like that. They are surely
going to generate efficent code without the need of human helpers or
abstractions.
Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote in ·················@aioe.org:
> They'll be programmed in pure binary code.
>
> A machine is surely not going to be concerned about dynamic variables,
> nor about the need for macros, or things like that. They are surely
> going to generate efficent code without the need of human helpers or
> abstractions.
What about garbage collection?
Human programmers will still be needed, because there are an infinite
number of possible programs, and the machines need a way to decide which
of those programs to write, to program themselves. The human programmers
will help the machines decide. And that help will be conveyed in a
programming language. Therefore, programming languages and programmers
will be around forever. The most likely language is Common Lisp. Some
people say Common Lisp is old, dead, bloated, etc., but those people are
mostly trolls who have not yet learned Common Lisp and have no idea what
they're talking about.
eric-and-jane-smith escribi�:
> Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote in ·················@aioe.org:
>
>> They'll be programmed in pure binary code.
>>
>> A machine is surely not going to be concerned about dynamic variables,
>> nor about the need for macros, or things like that. They are surely
>> going to generate efficent code without the need of human helpers or
>> abstractions.
>
> What about garbage collection?
>
> Human programmers will still be needed, because there are an infinite
> number of possible programs, and the machines need a way to decide which
> of those programs to write, to program themselves. The human programmers
> will help the machines decide. And that help will be conveyed in a
> programming language. Therefore, programming languages and programmers
> will be around forever. The most likely language is Common Lisp. Some
> people say Common Lisp is old, dead, bloated, etc., but those people are
> mostly trolls who have not yet learned Common Lisp and have no idea what
> they're talking about.
Ok, ok, you win.
Lisp is the best.
It is the future.
Lisp will eclipse all us.
Lisp will win.
We'll lose.
(Now let me laugh for a moment, I just can't write...)
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's already dead.
>>
>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>
> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening. The
Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The Buddhist
finds liberation by embracing death as a natural, inevitable, and even
illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier will certainly be dead
in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
kxo
From: William James
Subject: Re: IlC 2009! Hurry, hurry hurry, hahahahahahahahahhahaah!
Date:
Message-ID: <gq33km02g4s@enews2.newsguy.com>
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> e who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death
It's amazing the number of decades one can survive while
embracing death. Or is it clinging tenaciously to life?
> as a natural,
> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
The Buddhist Master (whose favorite programming language, by the
way, was CommuneLisp) journeyed far to find a village upon which
to bestow Enlightenment. After the people had gathered around
him, he began his discourse.
"My children, I perceive that you are grievously distressed by
your fear of calamity and of death. The good news is that both
death and life are merely Illusions. The only reality is The Way.
All material things are simply figments of your imagination that
distract you and prevent your perception of the Spiritual. The
worst offenders in this respect are gold and silver. You can
begin your liberation by handing over these encumbrances to me."
One particular villager listened with even more rapt attention than
the others and became a True Disciple. As the days passed, he
became more and more oblivious to the illusions of this world, to
thirst and hunger, to the hard bed upon which he slept. He began
to aspire to become a Buddhist Master himself.
All was well under heaven, until on one hot summer's day, a
massive bull elephant invaded the village, toppling huts, goring
hogs, and smashing water pots. Everyone, including the Buddhist
Master, ran for his life.
Hours later, the people returned to survey the damage. The True
Disciple was very troubled in his mind.
"Buddhist Master," he said. "If all earthly things are
Illusion, why did you run from that imaginary elephant?"
The Buddhist Master smiled indulgently and replied, "My son, I
only appeared to run."
--
Common Lisp is a significantly ugly language. --- Dick Gabriel
The good news is, it's not Lisp that sucks, but Common Lisp.
--- Paul Graham
Common LISP is the PL/I of Lisps. --- Jeffrey M. Jacobs
William James escribi�:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>
>> e who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death
>
> It's amazing the number of decades one can survive while
> embracing death. Or is it clinging tenaciously to life?
>
>> as a natural,
>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
>
>
>
> The Buddhist Master (whose favorite programming language, by the
> way, was CommuneLisp) journeyed far to find a village upon which
> to bestow Enlightenment. After the people had gathered around
> him, he began his discourse.
>
> "My children, I perceive that you are grievously distressed by
> your fear of calamity and of death. The good news is that both
> death and life are merely Illusions. The only reality is The Way.
> All material things are simply figments of your imagination that
> distract you and prevent your perception of the Spiritual. The
> worst offenders in this respect are gold and silver. You can
> begin your liberation by handing over these encumbrances to me."
>
> One particular villager listened with even more rapt attention than
> the others and became a True Disciple. As the days passed, he
> became more and more oblivious to the illusions of this world, to
> thirst and hunger, to the hard bed upon which he slept. He began
> to aspire to become a Buddhist Master himself.
>
> All was well under heaven, until on one hot summer's day, a
> massive bull elephant invaded the village, toppling huts, goring
> hogs, and smashing water pots. Everyone, including the Buddhist
> Master, ran for his life.
>
> Hours later, the people returned to survey the damage. The True
> Disciple was very troubled in his mind.
>
> "Buddhist Master," he said. "If all earthly things are
> Illusion, why did you run from that imaginary elephant?"
>
> The Buddhist Master smiled indulgently and replied, "My son, I
> only appeared to run."
Which is right.
If life is a dream, we must suppose that we do things like running
(imaginary) away from (imaginary) elephants.
Think about it carefully. Do we exist because of the external world, or
do we exist because we put names to that apparent world and think about
it? Would the world exist if you don't think about it? Where is the
world when you sleep, or when you are dead? Would that elephant exist if
it was not previously put a name in the mind? Is the elephant an
elephant? who is running?
It is not an easy question. Be careful about your answer.
Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> Which is right.
> If life is a dream, we must suppose that we do things like running
> (imaginary) away from (imaginary) elephants.
Depends on who is doing the dreaming.
> Think about it carefully. Do we exist because of the external world,
> or do we exist because we put names to that apparent world and think about
> it?
Or is this question an example of a false delimma?
> Would the world exist if you don't think about it?
Yes.
> Where is the world when you sleep, or when you are dead? Would that
> elephant exist if it was not previously put a name in the mind? Is the
> elephant an elephant? who is running?
> It is not an easy question. Be careful about your answer.
It's trivially easy. If you accept atheistic first principles, then we
exist because of the external world. If you accept (mono)theistic first
princples then, as St. Paul wrote, ""or in Him we live and move and have
our being". [Acts 17:28]
What does this have to do with Lisp?
Bob Felts escribi�:
>> Would the world exist if you don't think about it?
>
> Yes.
The existence and non-existence are illusions.
But you are blind and don't see it.
You accept that the illusion is real, and that implies the roten logic
of your thoughts, which are contaminated by the false idea of "me".
"World" is a word. Take off the word, and the world cease to exist and
non-exist.
Try to understand.
Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob Felts escribi�:
>
> >> Would the world exist if you don't think about it?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> The existence and non-existence are illusions.
Just to make sure I follow you, the existence and non-existence of what
are illusions?
> But you are blind and don't see it.
And you call Kenny arrogant.
>
> You accept that the illusion is real, and that implies the roten logic
> of your thoughts, which are contaminated by the false idea of "me".
>
Why is the idea of "me" false? After all, "cogito ergo sum".
> "World" is a word. Take off the word, and the world cease to exist and
> non-exist.
>
What does "take off the word" mean? Without words there are no
thoughts; if you can't think about something then it may, or may not, be
the case that "that something" ceases to exist. It ceases to exist _for
you_. That borders on solipsism, but at least the solipsist believes
that the self exists.
Also, the statement "the world cease[s] to exist and non-exist" violates
the law of contradiction; that is you are asserting both "a" and "not a"
at the same time. The moment you do that, all communication breaks
down.
> Try to understand.
If you can do a good job of explaining your ontology and epistemology,
I'll do my best.
Bob Felts escribi�:
> Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob Felts escribi�:
>>
>>>> Would the world exist if you don't think about it?
>>> Yes.
>> The existence and non-existence are illusions.
>
> Just to make sure I follow you, the existence and non-existence of what
> are illusions?
>
>> But you are blind and don't see it.
>
> And you call Kenny arrogant.
>
>> You accept that the illusion is real, and that implies the roten logic
>> of your thoughts, which are contaminated by the false idea of "me".
>>
>
> Why is the idea of "me" false? After all, "cogito ergo sum".
>
>> "World" is a word. Take off the word, and the world cease to exist and
>> non-exist.
>>
>
> What does "take off the word" mean? Without words there are no
> thoughts; if you can't think about something then it may, or may not, be
> the case that "that something" ceases to exist. It ceases to exist _for
> you_. That borders on solipsism, but at least the solipsist believes
> that the self exists.
>
> Also, the statement "the world cease[s] to exist and non-exist" violates
> the law of contradiction; that is you are asserting both "a" and "not a"
> at the same time. The moment you do that, all communication breaks
> down.
>
>> Try to understand.
>
> If you can do a good job of explaining your ontology and epistemology,
> I'll do my best.
Ok, we are off-topic, don't blame me for so, but you asked a question. ;)
There is a real world, is true. But that world cannot be explained using
words. The world that the mind knows is the world that it process. For
example, when you see the computer in front of you, there is not the
real computer what you see, it is the computer which has been processed
by your mind.
Is like taking a photo. Is the content of the picture the real thing?
No. You just imagine that that picture is the photo of something, but
you can't know that thing in fact. Is something in your mind. Right?
Well, the world that you see is exactly that: a succession of thoughts
and processed sensations. Those things are not real.
With so many years thinking that thouse things are real, then you just
say: that exists. But it is not true.
Now try to define computer:
Is a computer the sum of its parts?
What parts? Is the sum of a CPU, a memory, a screen? What happens if you
retire some part, is still a computer? For example, you retire the
screen. It is still a computer. You retire the CPU. It is still a
computer. You retire the memory, it is still a computer.
So what is a computer? The box? If you retire the box but put the CPU
and the main board and electricity, is that the computer? You may say
no, but, then, again, is the computer the box?
If you think carefully you are just going to encounter the solution: the
computer is an illusion. It is just a name.
And how a name is form? A name is always formed by a duality, and the
belief on it. Example of dualities: existence and non-existence, empty
and full, tall and small, computer and no-computer. One cannot exist
without the other.
It is not easy to see it. People take an entire life to profoundly
understand this. They get liberated when so happens.
Buddhism says that the strong belief of that is the first cause of
suffering. First, human form dualities. Then, it strongly start to
believe in them. Then, it desires some dualities and hate others. Then,
suffering comes when desires are not satisfied.
So Buddhism returns your mind to the point of forming dualities, and use
them for being a truly human, but not to the point to strongly believe
in them, so suffering never appears again, and the person is in harmony
with nature.
Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob Felts escribi�:
[...]
> >
> > If you can do a good job of explaining your ontology and epistemology,
> > I'll do my best.
>
>
> Ok, we are off-topic, don't blame me for so, but you asked a question. ;)
>
> There is a real world, is true. But that world cannot be explained using
> words. The world that the mind knows is the world that it process. For
> example, when you see the computer in front of you, there is not the real
> computer what you see, it is the computer which has been processed by your
> mind. Is like taking a photo. Is the content of the picture the real
> thing? No. You just imagine that that picture is the photo of something,
> but you can't know that thing in fact. Is something in your mind. Right?
We know that reality, whatever it is, is apprehended by our sense
impressions. What we dont know is the degree of correspondence between
what we sense and what "really is."
When you say, "that world cannot be explained using words", you are
assuming that there is no correspondence between what we sense and what
really is. How do you know that?
>
> Well, the world that you see is exactly that: a succession of thoughts
> and processed sensations. Those things are not real.
The thoughts and sensations are certainly real. What you're trying to
say is that they don't correspond well to the external world.
>
> With so many years thinking that thouse things are real, then you just
> say: that exists. But it is not true.
>
For you to affirm that it is not true, you have know that it's not true.
What is the basis for your knowledge?
[....]
>
> It is not easy to see it.
It's first year philosophy.
> People take an entire life to profoundly understand this. They get
> liberated when so happens.
What form has this liberation taken for you?
>
> Buddhism says that the strong belief of that is the first cause of
> suffering. First, human form dualities.
Do humans form them, or do they observe an expression of an ideal? It
seems to me you can't have the notion of "is" without the notion of "is
not". Negation cannot be separated from assertion.
> Then, it strongly start to believe in them. Then, it desires some
> dualities and hate others. Then, suffering comes when desires are not
> satisfied.
So is the problem that lack of satisfaction or having the wrong desire?
And who (or what) defines right and wrong for an individual?
> So Buddhism returns your mind to the point of forming dualities, and use
> them for being a truly human,
You just snuck in a concept for which you've given no warrant. What
does it mean to be "truly human"? What is the standard by which
"humanness" is measured?
> but not to the point to strongly believe in them, so suffering never
> appears again,
Yet another warrentless assertion: why is suffering wrong? I could
argue that the elimination of suffering makes for weaker humans.
> and the person is in harmony with nature.
And what does this mean?
Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> But you are blind and don't see it.
>
Sic.
(Anti-matter for a koan maybe)
(let ((blind t))
(flet ((see (x blind) (if blind nil (values x 42))))
(list (see blind blind)
(see (not blind) (not blind))
(see (not blind) blind)
(see blind (not blind)))))
;-> (NIL NIL NIL T)
····@stablecross.com (Bob Felts) writes:
> Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>
>> Which is right.
>> If life is a dream, we must suppose that we do things like running
>> (imaginary) away from (imaginary) elephants.
>
> Depends on who is doing the dreaming.
>
>> Think about it carefully. Do we exist because of the external world,
>> or do we exist because we put names to that apparent world and think about
>> it?
>
> Or is this question an example of a false delimma?
>
>> Would the world exist if you don't think about it?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Where is the world when you sleep, or when you are dead? Would that
>> elephant exist if it was not previously put a name in the mind? Is the
>> elephant an elephant? who is running?
>> It is not an easy question. Be careful about your answer.
>
> It's trivially easy. If you accept atheistic first principles, then we
> exist because of the external world. If you accept (mono)theistic first
> princples then, as St. Paul wrote, ""or in Him we live and move and have
> our being". [Acts 17:28]
>
> What does this have to do with Lisp?
Everything! Because of the turtles!
What is a verb if not a function?
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
From: William James
Subject: Re: IlC 2009! Hurry, hurry hurry, hahahahahahahahahhahaah!
Date:
Message-ID: <gq3kqd01ic5@enews2.newsguy.com>
Javier wrote:
> William James escribi�:
> > Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> >
> >> e who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
> >> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
> >> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death
> >
> > It's amazing the number of decades one can survive while
> > embracing death. Or is it clinging tenaciously to life?
> >
> >> as a natural,
> >> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Buddhist Master (whose favorite programming language, by the
> > way, was CommuneLisp) journeyed far to find a village upon which
> > to bestow Enlightenment. After the people had gathered around
> > him, he began his discourse.
> >
> > "My children, I perceive that you are grievously distressed by
> > your fear of calamity and of death. The good news is that both
> > death and life are merely Illusions. The only reality is The Way.
> > All material things are simply figments of your imagination that
> > distract you and prevent your perception of the Spiritual. The
> > worst offenders in this respect are gold and silver. You can
> > begin your liberation by handing over these encumbrances to me."
> >
> > One particular villager listened with even more rapt attention than
> > the others and became a True Disciple. As the days passed, he
> > became more and more oblivious to the illusions of this world, to
> > thirst and hunger, to the hard bed upon which he slept. He began
> > to aspire to become a Buddhist Master himself.
> >
> > All was well under heaven, until on one hot summer's day, a
> > massive bull elephant invaded the village, toppling huts, goring
> > hogs, and smashing water pots. Everyone, including the Buddhist
> > Master, ran for his life.
> >
> > Hours later, the people returned to survey the damage. The True
> > Disciple was very troubled in his mind.
> >
> > "Buddhist Master," he said. "If all earthly things are
> > Illusion, why did you run from that imaginary elephant?"
> >
> > The Buddhist Master smiled indulgently and replied, "My son, I
> > only appeared to run."
>
> Which is right.
> If life is a dream, we must suppose that we do things like running
> (imaginary) away from (imaginary) elephants.
> Think about it carefully. Do we exist because of the external world,
> or do we exist because we put names to that apparent world and think
> about it? Would the world exist if you don't think about it? Where is
> the world when you sleep, or when you are dead? Would that elephant
> exist if it was not previously put a name in the mind? Is the
> elephant an elephant? who is running?
> It is not an easy question. Be careful about your answer.
After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time
together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the
nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely
ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not
true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity
with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force
against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."
William James wrote:
> Javier wrote:
>
>> William James escribi�:
>>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>
>>>> e who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death
>>> It's amazing the number of decades one can survive while
>>> embracing death. Or is it clinging tenaciously to life?
>>>
>>>> as a natural,
>>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Buddhist Master (whose favorite programming language, by the
>>> way, was CommuneLisp) journeyed far to find a village upon which
>>> to bestow Enlightenment. After the people had gathered around
>>> him, he began his discourse.
>>>
>>> "My children, I perceive that you are grievously distressed by
>>> your fear of calamity and of death. The good news is that both
>>> death and life are merely Illusions. The only reality is The Way.
>>> All material things are simply figments of your imagination that
>>> distract you and prevent your perception of the Spiritual. The
>>> worst offenders in this respect are gold and silver. You can
>>> begin your liberation by handing over these encumbrances to me."
>>>
>>> One particular villager listened with even more rapt attention than
>>> the others and became a True Disciple. As the days passed, he
>>> became more and more oblivious to the illusions of this world, to
>>> thirst and hunger, to the hard bed upon which he slept. He began
>>> to aspire to become a Buddhist Master himself.
>>>
>>> All was well under heaven, until on one hot summer's day, a
>>> massive bull elephant invaded the village, toppling huts, goring
>>> hogs, and smashing water pots. Everyone, including the Buddhist
>>> Master, ran for his life.
>>>
>>> Hours later, the people returned to survey the damage. The True
>>> Disciple was very troubled in his mind.
>>>
>>> "Buddhist Master," he said. "If all earthly things are
>>> Illusion, why did you run from that imaginary elephant?"
>>>
>>> The Buddhist Master smiled indulgently and replied, "My son, I
>>> only appeared to run."
>> Which is right.
>> If life is a dream, we must suppose that we do things like running
>> (imaginary) away from (imaginary) elephants.
>> Think about it carefully. Do we exist because of the external world,
>> or do we exist because we put names to that apparent world and think
>> about it? Would the world exist if you don't think about it? Where is
>> the world when you sleep, or when you are dead? Would that elephant
>> exist if it was not previously put a name in the mind? Is the
>> elephant an elephant? who is running?
>> It is not an easy question. Be careful about your answer.
>
>
> After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time
> together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the
> nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely
> ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not
> true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity
> with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force
> against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."
Typical yobbo, smugly, brilliantly sailing straight past the point.
Reminds me of Bart Simpson, when Lisa tried to help him achieve
enlightenment by asking him What is the sound of one hand clapping?,
responding by holding up one hand and quickly opening and closing it
slapping the fingers against the palm.
kt
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It's already dead.
>>>
>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>
>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>
> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening. The
> Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The Buddhist
> finds liberation by embracing death as a natural, inevitable, and even
> illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier will certainly be dead
> in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
That is the nature of the impermanence.
(And lisp is not going to scape that too.)
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It's already dead.
>>>
>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>
>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>
> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening. The
> Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The Buddhist
> finds liberation by embracing death as a natural, inevitable, and even
> illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier will certainly be dead
> in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light on
this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
Pascal
--
ELS'09: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>
>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>
>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>
>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural, inevitable,
>> and even illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier will
>> certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>
> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light on
> this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>>
>>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>>
>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier
>>> will certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>>
>> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light on
>> this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
>
> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
> ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
> be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
Why should you be ready when it comes? Are you the kind who is
ready early for every appointment? How incredibly boring! Your
last thought should be "Damn! I am out of time and I didn't get
to do <a list of wonderful things>". You are deluding yourself
if you think life is an illusion.
Bakul Shah wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>>>
>>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
>>>> Javier will certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>>>
>>> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light
>>> on this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
>>
>> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
>> ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
>> be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
>
> Why should you be ready when it comes? Are you the kind who is
> ready early for every appointment? How incredibly boring!
Sorry. My friends appreciate it. I can guess what yours think about you.
> Your
> last thought should be "Damn! I am out of time and I didn't get
> to do <a list of wonderful things>". You are deluding yourself
> if you think life is an illusion.
Well we know which color pill /you/ took (and cue the Self-Reference
Police Police).
Try it as a healthy attitude adding a little gravitational away from
taking things too seriously, or as I like to describe Buddhism, as "Stop
and smell the flowers on steroids."
The whole point of living in contemplation of one's death is precisely
to be sure one does not squander it on childish things, such that when
the end comes one has no regrets. ie, You too should shut yer pie hole
and read up a little.
The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
positively indulgent.
I am reminded now of something said by someone involved with the
terminally ill -- they can live a lifetime in a year. Same thing.
Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> I am reminded now of something said by someone involved with the
> terminally ill -- they can live a lifetime in a year. Same thing.
The days are long, but the years are short.
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:51:27 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
Natural and inevitable sure, but no reason to quit early.
> The whole point of living in contemplation of one's death is precisely
> to be sure one does not squander it on childish things, such that when
Sure, spending time wisely is great. But I see no connection to dying
gracefully, unless it's because your ruling master doesn't want to
clean up your mess.
> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
> positively indulgent.
Again nothing there requiring passive death, except as previously
noted that is a great way to keep a slave population under control.
'Why revolt and improve our lives when we are just gonna die anyway?'
'Why write Lisp when this flower is just as interesting?'
All sorts of countries rolled over India, good thing the Aztecs never got them.
--
Lisp pwns, where else can you have a function/object named ^?^
GP lisper wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:51:27 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>>>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>>>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>>>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
>
> Natural and inevitable sure, but no reason to quit early.
>
>> The whole point of living in contemplation of one's death is precisely
>> to be sure one does not squander it on childish things, such that when
>
> Sure, spending time wisely is great. But I see no connection to dying
> gracefully, unless it's because your ruling master doesn't want to
> clean up your mess.
>
>> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
>> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
>> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
>> positively indulgent.
>
> Again nothing there requiring passive death, except as previously
> noted that is a great way to keep a slave population under control.
>
> 'Why revolt and improve our lives when we are just gonna die anyway?'
> 'Why write Lisp when this flower is just as interesting?'
>
>
> All sorts of countries rolled over India, good thing the Aztecs never got them.
>
>
Hmmm, somehow not fearing death got translated to jaywalking in New
Delhi. I mean, I see the grammatical and even semantic connection, but
still...oh, I get it. We usually talk of "no fear of death" when we see
someone teetering on a cable slung across a gorge or something. Looking
for a different association here. That said...hang on, last call in
30min, gotta run.
kt
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> Bakul Shah wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>>>>
>>>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
>>>>> Javier will certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light
>>>> on this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
>>>
>>> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
>>> ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
>>> be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
>>
>> Why should you be ready when it comes? Are you the kind who is
>> ready early for every appointment? How incredibly boring!
>
> Sorry. My friends appreciate it. I can guess what yours think about you.
I was joking but granted, I forgot the smiley! Still, you haven't
answered my first question! Why should you be ready for death?
>> Your
>> last thought should be "Damn! I am out of time and I didn't get
>> to do <a list of wonderful things>". You are deluding yourself
>> if you think life is an illusion.
>
> Well we know which color pill /you/ took (and cue the Self-Reference
> Police Police).
:-)
> Try it as a healthy attitude adding a little gravitational away from
> taking things too seriously, or as I like to describe Buddhism, as "Stop
> and smell the flowers on steroids."
Huh?
> The whole point of living in contemplation of one's death is precisely
> to be sure one does not squander it on childish things, such that when
> the end comes one has no regrets. ie, You too should shut yer pie hole
> and read up a little.
You seem to be assuming I haven't. "childish" & "squander" are your
judgements and doesn't Buddhism warn about judging? And, as you say, if
life is an illusion, what does it matter if one "squanders it on
childish things"? [To call the most precious thing one can have, an
"illusion" is, well, strange!] In any case why does it matter if one has
regrets? To mourn the (impending) loss of something precious is human
nature. Why fear a future fear now? That is like static type checking!
> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
> positively indulgent.
If Tao in the morning floats your boat, good for you! Me, I prefer
chai in the morning. Masala chai, if I am being indulgent. Any
contemplation about it being possibly my very last chai would not
make me enjoy it more; it would simply put a damper on the whole
thing. Not to mention contemplation while cooking is a fire hazard!
Bakul Shah wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Bakul Shah wrote:
>>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>>>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>>>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the
>>>>>> evening. The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny
>>>>>> it. The Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>>>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion.
>>>>>> Javier will certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light
>>>>> on this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
>>>>
>>>> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not
>>>> be ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought
>>>> will be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
>>>
>>> Why should you be ready when it comes? Are you the kind who is
>>> ready early for every appointment? How incredibly boring!
>>
>> Sorry. My friends appreciate it. I can guess what yours think about you.
>
> I was joking but granted, I forgot the smiley! Still, you haven't
> answered my first question! Why should you be ready for death?
To rob it of its sting. To keep one in the present. To achieve peace. To
make your chai more enjoyable.
>
>>> Your
>>> last thought should be "Damn! I am out of time and I didn't get
>>> to do <a list of wonderful things>". You are deluding yourself
>>> if you think life is an illusion.
>>
>> Well we know which color pill /you/ took (and cue the Self-Reference
>> Police Police).
>
> :-)
>
>> Try it as a healthy attitude adding a little gravitational away from
>> taking things too seriously, or as I like to describe Buddhism, as
>> "Stop and smell the flowers on steroids."
>
> Huh?
"Stop and smell the flowers" like Buddhism speaks to the quiet death we
live when we are caught up in childish things like careers, politics,
and Usenet flamewars.
>
>> The whole point of living in contemplation of one's death is precisely
>> to be sure one does not squander it on childish things, such that when
>> the end comes one has no regrets. ie, You too should shut yer pie hole
>> and read up a little.
>
> You seem to be assuming I haven't. "childish" & "squander" are your
> judgements and doesn't Buddhism warn about judging?
yeah, no discrimination, root of all evil. You might be taking it the
wrong way, natural language is good for that. Word games, too, aka
"playing gotcha".
> And, as you say, if
> life is an illusion, what does it matter if one "squanders it on
> childish things"? [To call the most precious thing one can have, an
> "illusion" is, well, strange!]
Hey, how about alleviating suffering when suffering is an illusion! Or
respecting all life when life is an illusion!! Whew! Don't have to worry
about that stupid philosophy any more!
> In any case why does it matter if one has
> regrets?
<cough> Please check the meaning of the word 'regret'.
> To mourn the (impending) loss of something precious is human
> nature.
I think Buddha was saying the ignorance that comes from taking the wrong
pill is /common/ but that our true nature attained thru meditation and
right practice is much cooler and can die content in the evening. (But
you can still dodge that truck, Rob.)
> Why fear a future fear now? That is like static type checking!
Lessee: attempting a classic attack by self reference in the form of
characterizing equanimity as a fear of a fear; a metaphor with compiler
semantics...I hope this thread found the Tao this morning.
>
>> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die
>> content in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful
>> thing and they are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened,
>> so a whole day is positively indulgent.
>
> If Tao in the morning floats your boat, good for you! Me, I prefer
> chai in the morning. Masala chai, if I am being indulgent. Any
> contemplation about it being possibly my very last chai would not
> make me enjoy it more; it would simply put a damper on the whole
> thing.
Yep. Full circle. Time to go. Death is not a damper if you have the
right attitude towards it. Our clinging attachment to life is what gives
death its sting. But every life ends. How unnatural to demonize it.
Contemplating one's death the right way draws one deeper into the
moment, though not in the way you fear in your puzzlement over why we
should care if it is all an illusion.
> Not to mention contemplation while cooking is a fire hazard!
There is a reason monks live in monasteries*. Being in the world
certainly makes Buddha nature hard to sustain.
peace and long life, kt
* ..and I never understood the point of vows of silence until I found
Usenet. k
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
> positively indulgent.
You are wrong. Nothing in Tao is about wonderful things. If you think
so, then so have not understood a word or... probably are reading too much.
The truly Tao cannot be spoken/writen. Start with that, just the first
poem. You're probably not going to understand that words in your entire
life... but you can try.
Remember: cognition/intelligence may be a trap.
> I am reminded now of something said by someone involved with the
> terminally ill -- they can live a lifetime in a year. Same thing.
Foolish.
Javier wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>
>> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
>> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
>> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
>> positively indulgent.
>
> You are wrong. Nothing in Tao is about wonderful things. If you think
> so, then so have not understood a word or... probably are reading too much.
> The truly Tao cannot be spoken/writen. Start with that, just the first
> poem. You're probably not going to understand that words in your entire
> life... but you can try.
> Remember: cognition/intelligence may be a trap.
>
>
>> I am reminded now of something said by someone involved with the
>> terminally ill -- they can live a lifetime in a year. Same thing.
>
> Foolish.
<tee-hee> You just reminded me what a hell-hole of invectitude is the
Buddhism newsgroup. Talk about self-reference. In turn I remember the
story of a perceived affront to an elder monk -- the younger did not
yield the right of way during a walking meditation? something important
-- leading to the monks dividing themselves into two feuding camps and
Buddha finally throwing up his hands and going on walkabout.
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> Javier wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>>
>>> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
>>> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
>>> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
>>> positively indulgent.
>>
>> You are wrong. Nothing in Tao is about wonderful things. If you think
>> so, then so have not understood a word or... probably are reading too
>> much.
>> The truly Tao cannot be spoken/writen. Start with that, just the first
>> poem. You're probably not going to understand that words in your entire
>> life... but you can try.
>> Remember: cognition/intelligence may be a trap.
>>
>>
>>> I am reminded now of something said by someone involved with the
>>> terminally ill -- they can live a lifetime in a year. Same thing.
>>
>> Foolish.
>
> <tee-hee> You just reminded me what a hell-hole of invectitude is the
> Buddhism newsgroup.
Yes, they are crap (even more crap than mine ;) )
> Talk about self-reference. In turn I remember the
> story of a perceived affront to an elder monk -- the younger did not
> yield the right of way during a walking meditation? something important
> -- leading to the monks dividing themselves into two feuding camps and
> Buddha finally throwing up his hands and going on walkabout.
You're probably right, but probably not. Are you ready to behave/judge
like Budha?
Javier wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>> Javier wrote:
>>> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>>>
>>>> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die content
>>>> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and they
>>>> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole day is
>>>> positively indulgent.
>>> You are wrong. Nothing in Tao is about wonderful things. If you think
>>> so, then so have not understood a word or... probably are reading too
>>> much.
>>> The truly Tao cannot be spoken/writen. Start with that, just the first
>>> poem. You're probably not going to understand that words in your entire
>>> life... but you can try.
>>> Remember: cognition/intelligence may be a trap.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am reminded now of something said by someone involved with the
>>>> terminally ill -- they can live a lifetime in a year. Same thing.
>>> Foolish.
>> <tee-hee> You just reminded me what a hell-hole of invectitude is the
>> Buddhism newsgroup.
>
> Yes, they are crap (even more crap than mine ;) )
>
>> Talk about self-reference. In turn I remember the
>> story of a perceived affront to an elder monk -- the younger did not
>> yield the right of way during a walking meditation? something important
>> -- leading to the monks dividing themselves into two feuding camps and
>> Buddha finally throwing up his hands and going on walkabout.
>
> You're probably right, but probably not. Are you ready to behave/judge
> like Budha?
No booze? No broads? Allow me to quote a higher authority:
"Ken, I went to the library and read up on Buddhism, and believe me, you
are no Buddhist."
-- Kenny's Mom
My response, never before revealed: "Knowing a person's religion does
not tell you how they behave. It tells you the path they are on." She
was a Christian, she shut her big yap.
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> Javier wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>>> Javier wrote:
>>>> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>>>>
>>>>> The point of finding the Tao in the morning being enough to die
>>>>> content
>>>>> in the evening is to see that every moment is a wonderful thing and
>>>>> they
>>>>> are all the same and one is enough to the enlightened, so a whole
>>>>> day is
>>>>> positively indulgent.
>>>> You are wrong. Nothing in Tao is about wonderful things. If you think
>>>> so, then so have not understood a word or... probably are reading too
>>>> much.
>>>> The truly Tao cannot be spoken/writen. Start with that, just the first
>>>> poem. You're probably not going to understand that words in your entire
>>>> life... but you can try.
>>>> Remember: cognition/intelligence may be a trap.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I am reminded now of something said by someone involved with the
>>>>> terminally ill -- they can live a lifetime in a year. Same thing.
>>>> Foolish.
>>> <tee-hee> You just reminded me what a hell-hole of invectitude is the
>>> Buddhism newsgroup.
>>
>> Yes, they are crap (even more crap than mine ;) )
>>
>>> Talk about self-reference. In turn I remember the
>>> story of a perceived affront to an elder monk -- the younger did not
>>> yield the right of way during a walking meditation? something important
>>> -- leading to the monks dividing themselves into two feuding camps and
>>> Buddha finally throwing up his hands and going on walkabout.
>>
>> You're probably right, but probably not. Are you ready to behave/judge
>> like Budha?
>
> No booze? No broads? Allow me to quote a higher authority:
>
> "Ken, I went to the library and read up on Buddhism, and believe me, you
> are no Buddhist."
> -- Kenny's Mom
Pascal hates it when I leave off the URL:
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-hell-is-fortune-cookie-file-anyway.html
>
> My response, never before revealed: "Knowing a person's religion does
> not tell you how they behave. It tells you the path they are on." She
> was a Christian, she shut her big yap.
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>> "Ken, I went to the library and read up on Buddhism, and believe me,
>> you are no Buddhist."
>> -- Kenny's Mom
>
> Pascal hates it when I leave off the URL:
> http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-hell-is-fortune-cookie-file-anyway.html
Pascal is right.
You are very predictable. You always choose the most arrogant option.
You just happen to try to hide it behind humor, but in fact you are very
seriously suffering because of your big big ego.
And your mum is right. Listen to her.
You can also follow what you once wrote: "Awareness of defect is the
first step to recovery."
Javier wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>>> "Ken, I went to the library and read up on Buddhism, and believe me,
>>> you are no Buddhist."
>>> -- Kenny's Mom
>> Pascal hates it when I leave off the URL:
>> http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-hell-is-fortune-cookie-file-anyway.html
>
>
> Pascal is right.
> You are very predictable. You always choose the most arrogant option.
> You just happen to try to hide it behind humor, but in fact you are very
> seriously suffering because of your big big ego.
> And your mum is right. Listen to her.
> You can also follow what you once wrote: "Awareness of defect is the
> first step to recovery."
Feel better?
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:19:39 -0700, <············@bitblocks.com> wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>
>> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
>> ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
>> be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
>
> Why should you be ready when it comes?
Indeed, Rage against the dying of the light!
P.S. Buddism was invented to deal with massive overpopulation and a
ruling class with a ironclad grip.
--
Lisp pwns, where else can you have a function/object named ^?^
GP lisper wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:19:39 -0700, <············@bitblocks.com> wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
>>> ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
>>> be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
>> Why should you be ready when it comes?
>
> Indeed, Rage against the dying of the light!
>
>
> P.S. Buddism was invented to deal with massive overpopulation and a
> ruling class with a ironclad grip.
Since you responded to my message, I feel compelled to say I do *not*
wish to be associated with your view of Buddhism in any way.
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>>
>>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>>
>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier
>>> will certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>>
>> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light on
>> this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
>
> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
> ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
> be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
But when your death comes, your sad thought will be: F*ck, so much time
I wasted, and so much friends like Costanza I lose in my life! No no
no...... but:
Goodbye, cruel world,
Im leaving you today.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
Goodbye all you people,
Theres nothing you can say,
To make me change my mind.
Goodbye.
(I'm sure you'll find the song in your Pink Floyd collection)
Javier wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>>>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>>>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural,
>>>> inevitable, and even illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier
>>>> will certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>>> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light on
>>> this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
>> Wordplay as a way of dealing with your fear of death? You will not be
>> ready when it comes, and the sad thing is that your last thought will
>> be, "F*ck! I should have listened to Kenny!!"
>
> But when your death comes, your sad thought will be: F*ck, so much time
> I wasted, and so much friends like Costanza I lose in my life! No no
> no...... but:
>
> Goodbye, cruel world,
> Im leaving you today.
> Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
>
> Goodbye all you people,
> Theres nothing you can say,
> To make me change my mind.
> Goodbye.
>
>
> (I'm sure you'll find the song in your Pink Floyd collection)
You should try shutting your big fat yap (I know, I know) and reading up
a little on... hmmm, maybe the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying? Sogyal
Rinpoche?
hth,kzo
Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> You should try shutting your big fat yap (I know, I know) and reading up
> a little on... hmmm, maybe the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying? Sogyal
> Rinpoche?
You should read the english page of a friend of mine:
http://www.mahabodhi.net/
If you're able to understand spanish:
http://directoaldharma.blogspot.com/
And one of the little pages you are going to read written by a truly
Chan master:
http://www.geocities.com/mahabodhinet/
He is english, but decided to write in (bad) spanish, as he is living
here now, and has mostly spanish students.
Javier wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
>
>> You should try shutting your big fat yap (I know, I know) and reading up
>> a little on... hmmm, maybe the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying? Sogyal
>> Rinpoche?
>
> You should read the english page of a friend of mine:
>
> http://www.mahabodhi.net/
"The Buddha was born for a great reason: to build a special relationship
with all of us who live in this world."
Oops. Their Christianity is showing.
>
> If you're able to understand spanish:
>
> http://directoaldharma.blogspot.com/
No comprende.
>
> And one of the little pages you are going to read written by a truly
> Chan master:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/mahabodhinet/
>
>
> He is english, but decided to write in (bad) spanish, as he is living
> here now, and has mostly spanish students.
�Qu� parte "No comprende" usted no entiende?
Pascal Costanza escribi�:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's already dead.
>>>>
>>>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>>>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>>>
>>> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
>>
>> We who finds the Tao in the morning can die content in the evening.
>> The Western mind is troubled by death because they deny it. The
>> Buddhist finds liberation by embracing death as a natural, inevitable,
>> and even illusory in that life itself is illusion. Javier will
>> certainly be dead in 2090. So will you. Cue Peggy Lee.
>
> Well, I certainly didn't expect you to throw some interesting light on
> this, and you certainly didn't disappoint me.
We'll probably going to encounter the light the same day that we
discover that Lisp, among every other name/form, is an illusion.
The illusion is that both Lisp and no-Lisp are the same duality. The
same with Lispers and anti-lispers. Trolls and fanatical. And, to any
extent, be or not being.
And our nature is to realize it, and live in harmony with the illusions.
We must refuse, or at least observe, our identities if we want to success.
Humor is our weapon.
Pascal Costanza escribi�:
> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's already dead.
>>
>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>
> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
I think he didn't caught what I wanted to say...
Lisp is dead, as it is any thing, or any idea... is Lisp more alive than
a stone?
I think it is even more dead than a stone... at least a stone may exists
in real...
It if funny to see how human bring to live their thoughts, and how the
get trapped by them.
:)
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:52:44 +0100, <··@p-cos.net> wrote:
>
> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 21 Mar, 11:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's already dead.
>>
>> Javier, 2009: is Lisp dead?
>> Lisp, 2090: is Javier dead?
>
> This is not funny. You're talking about a person here.
No, just another annoying troll, hiding behind the anonymous Internet.
I think the author of 'Deamon' wrote it in order to put the 'Death to
Spammers' scene in.
--
Lisp pwns, where else can you have a function/object named ^?^
Javier wrote:
> About the subject of the thread.... well, you don't need to tell Lisp to
> die. It's already dead. All what people is doing here is just hitting
> the corpse.
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny :-)
BTW: It is a bit late for this conference, but maybe would be cool to
create a Lisp logo in plastic, as a souvenir for the conference members.
The alien logo would be nice, or one of the other designs:
http://images.google.de/images?q=lisp+logo
Recently I've tested a 3D printing service which is really great and which
can produce a prototype:
http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=764
For the final logo production it would be cheaper to use such a 3D print to
build a casting mold (but maybe not, depending on the number of conference
members :-)
Next thing I design will be a moving part, like this one, tested in 2D:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c2i8S6deu0
--
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: William James
Subject: Re: IlC 2009! Hurry, hurry hurry, hahahahahahahahahhahaah!
Date:
Message-ID: <gq30to013h5@enews2.newsguy.com>
Javier wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton escribi�:
> > Brought to you by the clowns who lost "The Road to Lisp"!***
> >
> > Keynote speaker Sussman, who tried to kill Common Lisp! And
> > failed!!! (Thanks tho big guy for lexical scope!)
> >
> > But hurryhurryhurry: "On-site registrations will be accepted on a
> > space available basis." Translation: "Promise to keep your mouth
> > shut and we'll slip you a fiver to fill a seat."
> >
> > "space available basis"?! For a Lisp conference?!! Usually things
> > like this keep me cheerful for a week, we're lookin at a good month
> > here.
> >
> > Hey, Rubytwit, got any conferences coming up?*
> >
> > kenny
> >
> > * Make sure space is available. PWUAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!*
> >
> > ** Die, Lisp! Die!!
> >
> > *** Ambiguous, sorry. Could be the Cliki yobbos or the ALU "backup?
> > what's that?" geniuses.
>
>
> (You are making progress, but must introduce the subject more
> slowly... if you go into it to fast, you are probably going to be
> ignored. This kind of attack must be at least at the 5th level of the
> thread. You did better with "Road to Clojure", and was very
> successful)
>
>
> About the subject of the thread.... well, you don't need to tell Lisp
> to die. It's already dead. All what people is doing here is just
> hitting the corpse.
Yes, COBOL-LISP is dead; and good riddance!
There are two ways of constructing a software design: one way
is to make it so simple that there are obviously no
deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated
that there are no obvious deficiencies.
--- Charles Antony Richard Hoare
Which way was used to construct Commune Lisp? The answer is obvious
---even to a kennytwat!
--
Common Lisp is a significantly ugly language. --- Dick Gabriel
The good news is, it's not Lisp that sucks, but Common Lisp.
--- Paul Graham
Common LISP is the PL/I of Lisps. --- Jeffrey M. Jacobs
P� Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:25:44 +0100, skrev William James
<·········@yahoo.com>:
>
> Yes, COBOL-LISP is dead; and good riddance!
>
>
> There are two ways of constructing a software design: one way
> is to make it so simple that there are obviously no
> deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated
> that there are no obvious deficiencies.
> --- Charles Antony Richard Hoare
>
>
> Which way was used to construct Commune Lisp? The answer is obvious
> ---even to a kennytwat!
>
Do you honestly consider the ruby line noise superior? lol
--------------
John Thingstad