Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
using it profoundly.
I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
unsure about this language:
-Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
-Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
-Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
programming languages?
Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
PS: If you think that Lisp is worth learning and using, than I would
appreciate very much if you could suggest me some ideas or projects to
start with.
Again, sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
On Jan 31, 2:52 am, ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> PS: If you think that Lisp is worth learning and using, than I would
> appreciate very much if you could suggest me some ideas or projects to
> start with.
That depends what interests you.
bobi
>
> Again, sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> using it profoundly.
>
> I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> unsure about this language:
>
> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
>
> -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
>
> -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> programming languages?
>
>
> Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
While finding your way into the world of programming, you should also
make yourself familiar with the culture accommodating it. Please read
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Especially the point about "google is your friend".
Cheers,
A
On Jan 31, 3:13 am, Albert Krewinkel <·········@gmx.net> wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
> > Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> > computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> > topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> > difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> > Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> > learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> > about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> > love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> > using it profoundly.
>
> > I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> > unsure about this language:
>
> > -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
>
> > -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
>
> > -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> > acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> > programming languages?
>
> > Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
>
> While finding your way into the world of programming, you should also
> make yourself familiar with the culture accommodating it. Please read
>
> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> Especially the point about "google is your friend".
>
> Cheers,
> A
Thanks for the advice, but I have already read that page and many
others by Paul Graham and Eric Raymond. Also I have searched a lot in
the Web and read a lot of things about Lisp. But i think those essays,
articles or simply texts are written mostly in a manner that idolize
the language. I wanted to know the opinion of other people (not of
them who write essays about Lisp) who are looking Lisp from a
different angle.
(I think it's my first time that I post in a Usenet group and maybe my
post`s questions don`t match with the purpose of this group and are
out of place. If this is so than I beg your sorry if this is wasting
your time and energy.)
On 31 Jan., 14:50, ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 31, 3:13 am, Albert Krewinkel <·········@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ·········@gmail.com writes:
> > > Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> > > computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> > > topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> > > difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> > > Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> > > learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> > > about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> > > love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> > > using it profoundly.
>
> > > I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> > > unsure about this language:
>
> > > -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
>
> > > -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
>
> > > -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> > > acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> > > programming languages?
>
> > > Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
>
> > While finding your way into the world of programming, you should also
> > make yourself familiar with the culture accommodating it. Please read
>
> >http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> > Especially the point about "google is your friend".
>
> > Cheers,
> > A
>
> Thanks for the advice, but I have already read that page and many
> others by Paul Graham and Eric Raymond. Also I have searched a lot in
> the Web and read a lot of things about Lisp. But i think those essays,
> articles or simply texts are written mostly in a manner that idolize
> the language. I wanted to know the opinion of other people (not of
> them who write essays about Lisp) who are looking Lisp from a
> different angle.
>
> (I think it's my first time that I post in a Usenet group and maybe my
> post`s questions don`t match with the purpose of this group and are
> out of place. If this is so than I beg your sorry if this is wasting
> your time and energy.)
For a 'real' software developer the preferred things to read are
1) source code, 2) manuals, 3) books, 4) techincal papers, 5) mailing
lists. Essays
are for recreation.
1) -> common-lisp.net
2) -> CLHS, sbcl manual, LispWorks manual, 'whatever software you are
using' manual
3) -> PCL, PAIP, SICP, ...
4) -> google scholar
5) -> http://dir.gmane.org/index.php?prefix=gmane.lisp
Plus don't forget to write some code. Then rewrite it until it looks
good.
pick some of 1 to 4 and let the essays read someone else.
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 05:50:02 -0800 (PST)
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks for the advice, but I have already read that page and many
> others by Paul Graham and Eric Raymond.
Oh, I hope you know you shouldn't take Eric too serious. He's
(probably) good at writing essays, not so much on programming.
> Also I have searched a lot in the Web and read a lot of things about
> Lisp. But i think those essays, articles or simply texts are written
> mostly in a manner that idolize the language. I wanted to know the
> opinion of other people (not of them who write essays about Lisp) who
> are looking Lisp from a different angle.
Start writing code (toy project, some small semi-useless stuff) and
find it out. Reading opinions only gets you so far that you become a
theoretical expert on the topic but can't solve a single problem.
regards,
Marek
> Start writing code (toy project, some small semi-useless stuff) and
> find it out. Reading opinions only gets you so far that you become a
> theoretical expert on the topic but can't solve a single problem.
>
> regards,
> Marek
Thanks for the advice. Now that I read your post it makes me realize
that I spent much more time looking to find out if Lisp is worth
wasting my time, than exploring and learning it and creating a more
detailed opinion about it. Again thanks very much for listening and
for your advices.
Elton
On Jan 31, 2:46 am, ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> using it profoundly.
>
> I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> unsure about this language:
>
> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
There are lots of interesting programming languages. Lisp
is one of them and is both worth learning and using it.
But it also depends if it fits your mental model
of software and software development. It depends
on what kind of software you want to develop and how.
Lisp favors computing with symbols, flexibility, dynamic objects,
usage of multiple programming paradigms, meta-programming,
and incremental/interactive software development.
> -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
There are good books to read. Some of them have interesting
exercises. SICP (Structure and Interpretation of Computer
Programs) for example is worth reading - it is a computer
science introduction using Scheme.
> -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> programming languages?
Depends what language you look at. Optimized Lisp code is usually
a bit slower than C and a hundred times faster than Ruby.
> Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
······@corporate-world.lisp.de wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2:46 am, ·········@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
>> computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
>> topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
>> difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
>> Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
>> learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
>> about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
>> love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
>> using it profoundly.
>>
>> I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
>> unsure about this language:
>>
>> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
>
> There are lots of interesting programming languages. Lisp
> is one of them and is both worth learning and using it.
> But it also depends if it fits your mental model
> of software and software development. It depends
> on what kind of software you want to develop and how.
what a load of apologistic namby-pamby moral relativistic shiny happy
faces computer language tolerant crap. If you are not sure about Lisp
take your incompetence with you on the way out. the way it works is
this: if the OP's mental model does not meld with Lisp they can get a
lobotomy. Too easy?
hth,kth
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> the way it works is this: if the OP's mental model does not meld with
> Lisp they can get a lobotomy.
+1
Yes, after the lobotomy COBOL-LISP will be perfect for him.
Hey eltoni.91,
Here is a direct crash course, without even downloading a thing:
type
telnet prompt.franz.com
or go to this URL
http://nostoc.stanford.edu:8003/biologin (just enter a name in the box
and press New login or Previous)
Then if any of the services above work, type this:
(+ 2 3)
Then type
(defun mysum (a b) (+ a b))
and then type
(mysum 2 3)
If you like such kind of development - then you can start with
downloading a full implementation (Corman Lisp, Lispworks Personal,
Allegro CL Trial, SBCL, ECL, GCL, CLISP, whatever else there is)
and then depending how you want to develop - EMACS+SLIME, or ABLE, or
CUSP, or just use the command-line...
there are even ready things like LispBox and others
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> using it profoundly.
>
> I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> unsure about this language:
>
> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
>
> -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
>
> -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> programming languages?
>
>
> Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
On Jan 31, 3:46 am, "Dimiter \"malkia\" Stanev" <······@mac.com>
wrote:
> Hey eltoni.91,
>
> Here is a direct crash course, without even downloading a thing:
>
> type
> telnet prompt.franz.com
>
> or go to this URL
> http://nostoc.stanford.edu:8003/biologin(just enter a name in the box
> and press New login or Previous)
>
> Then if any of the services above work, type this:
>
> (+ 2 3)
>
> Then type
>
> (defun mysum (a b) (+ a b))
>
> and then type
>
> (mysum 2 3)
>
> If you like such kind of development - then you can start with
> downloading a full implementation (Corman Lisp, Lispworks Personal,
> Allegro CL Trial, SBCL, ECL, GCL, CLISP, whatever else there is)
>
> and then depending how you want to develop - EMACS+SLIME, or ABLE, or
> CUSP, or just use the command-line...
>
> there are even ready things like LispBox and others
>
Hey malkia thanks for this advice, but I already stated in my first
post that I know a little Lisp and I am familiar with it`s syntax.
I am using now LispBox and LispWorks. My question was: If I want to
make a career in programming, should I base it on Lisp?
·········@gmail.com writes:
> My question was: If I want to
> make a career in programming, should I base it on Lisp?
Asked like this, no.
You won't base a "career" in programming on Lisp.
There's not enough "legacy" applications written in Lisp to let
anybody build a "career" on it.
For a "career" in programming, you could make a choice between:
- COBOL
- C++
- Java
I'd bet for C++ as the most promising career building legacy, but Java
is certainly close. COBOL would be good, but I don't think there are
alot of new legacy application being written in COBOL. So given your
age, try rather C++ or Java.
Now, if you forget a moment the "career" aspect, and are interested in
programming only for the joy of it, go ahead, Lisp is the best there is.
I only wish I could have learned Lisp at seventeen!
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
> - COBOL
> - C++
> - Java
>
> I'd bet for C++ as the most promising career building legacy, but Java
> is certainly close. COBOL would be good, but I don't think there are
> alot of new legacy application being written in COBOL. So given your
> age, try rather C++ or Java.
Or you could aim at becoming an IBM software engineer/consultant and earn a
whole lot of money with COBOL. ;-)
But since this is a niche anyways, Pascal's probably right.
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:24:00 +0100
···@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
> > My question was: If I want to
> > make a career in programming, should I base it on Lisp?
>
> Asked like this, no.
> You won't base a "career" in programming on Lisp.
Asked like this there really aren't that much languages that you can
base a career on. Take, for example JavaScript. While it gets more and
more popular I doubt that there will be any "careers" soon that are
based only on JS, most have to know CSS and HTML at least and most
probably one or more backend programming languages.
So yes, if you want to pick one single language, go for Java. Its
terrible but there is a bigger chance of building a career on it. C# is
less terrible as a language, but the platform where it is used mainly
is worse than in the Java-case.
Personally, I tend to look for jobs that don't involve Java, C++ or,
yeah COBOL, but YMMV.
> COBOL would be good, but I don't think there are alot of new legacy
> application being written in COBOL.
Am I the only one who finds this sentence amusing? :)
regards,
Marek
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> using it profoundly.
>
> I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> unsure about this language:
>
> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
I definitely think so. The scope of Common Lisp can be a little
daunting sometimes (Scheme might be a gentler introduction), but the
journey seems to be worth while so far.
> -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
>
> -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> programming languages?
Yes, if you choose a good implementation, I believe it is. Many
implementations compile to native machine code; Steel Bank Common Lisp
is one such implementation for a variety of Unix-like platforms (Linux,
FreeBSD, etc.).
As for projects to get started with, find something interesting to you
and do it. For me that something was a web app server with a blog
engine.
I'd recommend starting by reading Peter Seibel's Practical Common
Lisp[1] -- it's a great introduction with a number of hands-on projects.
- Michael
1. Available online at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
--
mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type.
Confused by the strange files? I cryptographically sign my messages.
For more information see <http://www.elehack.net/resources/gpg>.
On Jan 30, 8:46 pm, ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
Languages are only tools, and the JOB determines the appropriate
tools. Do you have a project that requires Lisp? If yes, then learn
enough Lisp to do the project. If no, then use whatever tool the
project requires.
> -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
That depends on the degree of usefulness. If you have many jobs that
Lisp lends itself to doing, then yes, become proficient in Lisp. If
no, then become proficient in whatever language(s) you need.
> -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> programming languages?
Is the usefulness of a hammer, or a screwdriver, or a wrench,
acceptable in comparison with other tools? Depends on whether you have
a sack of nails, a sack of screws, or a sack of bolts. What about a
saw, blowtorch, or an axe? Depends on whether you need to cut lumber,
metal, or wood.
> Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
Look at the employment figures for various languages, then read
Graham's 'Averages' essay. Ask yourself, 'If Lisp is so great, why do
so few jobs exist for Lisp programmers?'
CC
cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> Look at the employment figures for various languages, then read
> Graham's 'Averages' essay. Ask yourself, 'If Lisp is so great, why do
> so few jobs exist for Lisp programmers?'
On the other hand, lisp programming jobs are not paid much less or
much more than other programming jobs. That would seem to mean that
there's about the same ratio offer/demand in lisp jobs than in java
jobs. So if you like lisp, you may still find a job (but perhaps not
in your country, be prepared to travel).
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
On Jan 31, 4:21 am, ····@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:
> On the other hand, lisp programming jobs are not paid much less or
> much more than other programming jobs. That would seem to mean that
> there's about the same ratio offer/demand in lisp jobs than in java
> jobs. So if you like lisp, you may still find a job (but perhaps not
> in your country, be prepared to travel).
Over the years, I've responded to a lot of job ads, had a number of
interviews, and had several that involved serious discussions.
I have never, NEVER, seen anything that remotely involved Lisp, and
very few employers have even heard of Lisp. I live in the Southeastern
U.S., not a hotbed of Lisp by any means, so I won't make the mistake
of thinking this is true outside the SEUS.
On the other hand, I've discussed Java many times, and my take on Java
(unfair to Java) is that it's pushed by HR and management types simply
on the basis of hype. IOW, demand is self-aggregating -- the larger
the core group of programmers in any particular technology, the larger
the demand and the more jobs there are, enlarging the number of people
who use the language.
In my area, there's still a very large COBOL base, and if you want to
prepare for employment, you'd be much better off learning COBOL than
Lisp. However, if you want to improve yourself, I'd recommend studying
Lisp rather than COBOL. (Who was it that said to learn COBOL if you
wanted to commit brain suicide?)
CC
cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> Languages are only tools,
No, they're not. It's about time we dismiss this over-simplification. A
programming language is not only a simple tool, it's a complete workshop
full of tools, and it also comes with a mindset. Or several mindsets:
The cool thing about lisp is that it's a very unique language, but still
it allows for serveral different mindsets through its variety of
constructs and expressive power.
And even seen as a tool, it's not only a tool for creating programs,
it's also a tool for creating more tools.
> Do you have a project that requires Lisp? If yes, then learn enough
> Lisp to do the project. If no, then use whatever tool the project
> requires.
This is not good advice: You're talking to a teenager. Presumably, he's
not in a hurry to make money on his programming, but rather explore and
learn.
> Look at the employment figures for various languages, then read
> Graham's 'Averages' essay. Ask yourself, 'If Lisp is so great, why do
> so few jobs exist for Lisp programmers?'
Are there any reliable figures for employment figures for different
languages? But again, this is not the right advice to a teenager. There
*are* very interesting lisp jobs out there (I have one myself, so I'm
not making this up :-)), but if the OP doesn't find one when he
eventually starts searching, it won't hurt to learn lisp anyway.
To the OP: Read Pascal Constanza's advice, very good!
--
(espen)
On Jan 31, 6:01 am, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> wrote:
> cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> > Languages are only tools,
>
> No, they're not. It's about time we dismiss this over-simplification.
This ISN'T an over-simplification -- it's a metaphor. A 'metaphor' is
a comparison to show one /or more/ similarities.
> A
> programming language is not only a simple tool, it's a complete workshop
> full of tools, and it also comes with a mindset. Or several mindsets:
> The cool thing about lisp is that it's a very unique language, but still
> it allows for serveral different mindsets through its variety of
> constructs and expressive power.
Which just proves the truth of what I said. Look up the definition of
'tool.' It includes such complex systems as ships, spacecraft, and
factories.
> And even seen as a tool, it's not only a tool for creating programs,
> it's also a tool for creating more tools.
Do you know what a 'machine tool' is?
> > Do you have a project that requires Lisp? If yes, then learn enough
> > Lisp to do the project. If no, then use whatever tool the project
> > requires.
>
> This is not good advice: You're talking to a teenager. Presumably, he's
> not in a hurry to make money on his programming, but rather explore and
> learn.
This is the 'art for art's sake' argument. Obviously, you need a
certain level of proficiency in a language before you can judge
whether or not it can be used for any particular thing. Making a
judgment of the best tool for a particular project requires
discretion. Using a particular technology for every project you do
because it's the only technology you know is the idiot's approach to
development. If you are a workman you need to know how to use your
tools (please note the plural). A carpenter who only knows how to use
a hammer isn't much good.
> > Look at the employment figures for various languages, then read
> > Graham's 'Averages' essay. Ask yourself, 'If Lisp is so great, why do
> > so few jobs exist for Lisp programmers?'
>
> Are there any reliable figures for employment figures for different
> languages?
Only empirical ones. Read the want ads. Visit employment agencies.
Search Dice, Monster, CareerBuilder, etc. ... just looked at= 693,
Lisp = 23.
> But again, this is not the right advice to a teenager. There
> *are* very interesting lisp jobs out there (I have one myself, so I'm
> not making this up :-)), but if the OP doesn't find one when he
> eventually starts searching, it won't hurt to learn lisp anyway.
Just as a journeyman masters the tools in his toolbox. In my job, we
have some database people who know only databases, and they use
database solutions for every project, whether it's appropriate or not.
Several times in the past year I've had to complete their projects
(using a programming language) because the particular project could
not be done with a database. Should a developer learn databases?
Absolutely! Should he learn ONLY databases? Hell no. (A database is
only a tool as well and if your project requires a database solution
you don't need to write a database in Lisp when you have perfectly
good tools at hand.)
CC
cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> Which just proves the truth of what I said. Look up the definition of
> 'tool.' It includes such complex systems as ships, spacecraft, and
> factories.
The most common usage is for hand-held tools, just like you used it
later in your post... (hammer, scredriver, wrench), and like you
continue to do:
> A carpenter who only knows how to use a hammer isn't much good.
> Only empirical ones. Read the want ads. Visit employment agencies.
> Search Dice, Monster, CareerBuilder, etc. ... just looked at= 693,
> Lisp = 23.
I don't have any data to support this, but I would be surprised if a
large share of the lisp jobs were ever advertised through these
agencies.
> not be done with a database. Should a developer learn databases?
> Absolutely! Should he learn ONLY databases? Hell no. (A database is
> only a tool as well and if your project requires a database solution
> you don't need to write a database in Lisp when you have perfectly
> good tools at hand.)
Of course. (All the lisp system I've been working on for the last 12
years have involved Oracle databases in some way)
--
(espen)
On Jan 31, 6:18 pm, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> wrote:
> cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> > Which just proves the truth of what I said. Look up the definition of
> > 'tool.' It includes such complex systems as ships, spacecraft, and
> > factories.
>
> The most common usage is for hand-held tools, just like you used it
> later in your post... (hammer, scredriver, wrench), and like you
> continue to do:
I 'tool' is a thing used to accomplish some task. I used simple hand
tools because I wanted to make a point that could be stated and
understood simply. Tools are used to perform tasks, whether it's a
hammer for nailing, or a programming language for building an
application. In both cases, the concepts are identical -- you use the
tool to complete some project. There's no magic in this, and the
concept is easily understood. Even by you (probably).
> > Only empirical ones. Read the want ads. Visit employment agencies.
> > Search Dice, Monster, CareerBuilder, etc. ... just looked at= 693,
> > Lisp = 23.
>
> I don't have any data to support this, but I would be surprised if a
> large share of the lisp jobs were ever advertised through these
> agencies.
I just suggested one metric. Pick another one if you don't like mine.
Look at the languages taught in colleges and universities. In some
cases, e.g. MIT, they teach students a functional language, e.g.
Scheme, but most colleges and universities teach C, C++, Java, Pascal,
etc. I know that this doesn't prove anything, that it's only evidence,
but still, evidence has some probative value.
> > not be done with a database. Should a developer learn databases?
> > Absolutely! Should he learn ONLY databases? Hell no. (A database is
> > only a tool as well and if your project requires a database solution
> > you don't need to write a database in Lisp when you have perfectly
> > good tools at hand.)
>
> Of course. (All the lisp system I've been working on for the last 12
> years have involved Oracle databases in some way)
My point is that a workman needs to master the tools of the trade. A
developer needs to master several languages. A student should do the
same. IMO, a student should learn at least one or two widely used
languages, and maybe one or two specialized languages (bash,
JavaScript), and at some point needs to become familiar with some
functional language, whether it be Lisp, Scheme, Erlang, or something
else.
CC
cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> I 'tool' is a thing used to accomplish some task. I used simple hand
> tools because I wanted to make a point that could be stated and
> understood simply.
I understood that, and my point was simply to question the validity of
this (quite common) metaphor. It's valid to some extent, but it may also
be misleading, because programming is more complex than the usage of
simple tools.
> My point is that a workman needs to master the tools of the trade. A
> developer needs to master several languages.
I don't disagree.
> and at some point needs to become familiar with some
> functional language, whether it be Lisp[...]
I think you need to learn lisp (if you think it's a "functional
language" - it's so much more)!
--
(espen)
On Feb 1, 6:16 pm, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> wrote:
> > and at some point needs to become familiar with some
> > functional language, whether it be Lisp[...]
>
> I think you need to learn lisp (if you think it's a "functional
> language" - it's so much more)!
To date, I have developed non-trivial applications in C, Java, Perl,
ColdFusion, and Java. I've also toyed with VB, C#, PowerShell, bash,
Scheme, and a couple of others. Perl is a multi-paradigm language and
can be written both in an OO style and a functional style, just as
Lisp.
Unfortunately, you have to invest a substantial intellectual capital
and time to learn a language well enough to evaluate it fairly. I'm in
the process of learning Lisp (and have taken some hard knocks in
c.l.l. as a result, if you care to search the archives.)
As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
endangered species on the brink of total extinction. Anyway, I am
finding the closed mindset of the Lisp community an obstacle
Thanks for your conversation. I apologize if I was harsh in my
comments.
CC
On Feb 2, 5:22 am, cartercc <········@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 6:16 pm, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> wrote:
>
> > > and at some point needs to become familiar with some
> > > functional language, whether it be Lisp[...]
>
> > I think you need to learn lisp (if you think it's a "functional
> > language" - it's so much more)!
>
> To date, I have developed non-trivial applications in C, Java, Perl,
> ColdFusion, and Java. I've also toyed with VB, C#, PowerShell, bash,
> Scheme, and a couple of others. Perl is a multi-paradigm language and
> can be written both in an OO style and a functional style, just as
> Lisp.
>
> Unfortunately, you have to invest a substantial intellectual capital
> and time to learn a language well enough to evaluate it fairly. I'm in
> the process of learning Lisp (and have taken some hard knocks in
> c.l.l. as a result, if you care to search the archives.)
I can't see how 'knocks' are the result of you 'learning' Lisp.
> As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp.
How are the others responsible for your learning and using Lisp?
> I've been a
> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
> experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
> endangered species on the brink of total extinction. Anyway, I am
> finding the closed mindset of the Lisp community an obstacle
Hmm, ever thought that it is not the problem of others?
It's fine that you post about learning Lisp here, but it would be
really
fine if it were less whining and more code.
> Thanks for your conversation. I apologize if I was harsh in my
> comments.
>
> CC
cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> On Feb 1, 6:16�pm, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> wrote:
>> > and at some point needs to become familiar with some
>> > functional language, whether it be Lisp[...]
>>
>> I think you need to learn lisp (if you think it's a "functional
>> language" - it's so much more)!
>
> To date, I have developed non-trivial applications in C, Java, Perl,
> ColdFusion, and Java. I've also toyed with VB, C#, PowerShell, bash,
> Scheme, and a couple of others. Perl is a multi-paradigm language and
> can be written both in an OO style and a functional style, just as
> Lisp.
>
> Unfortunately, you have to invest a substantial intellectual capital
> and time to learn a language well enough to evaluate it fairly. I'm in
> the process of learning Lisp (and have taken some hard knocks in
> c.l.l. as a result, if you care to search the archives.)
>
> As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
> experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
> endangered species on the brink of total extinction. Anyway, I am
> finding the closed mindset of the Lisp community an obstacle
>
> Thanks for your conversation. I apologize if I was harsh in my
> comments.
- In don't think the "cognoscienti" feel threatened at all, be it for
technical reasons, or recently, for social reasons. After all during
the last ten years, the traffic on cll increased steadily.
- Given the influx of new CL users, you should now be able to find a
clique of "young blood" that should be more friendly, if it was
needed. We count on you to provide soon CL support in the perl
spirit! Perhaps you will be our savior, writting at least this
CLPAN equivalent of CPAN.
- Have you, or are you reading "Practical Common Lisp"?
http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book
Given you're background, it's the advised entry point.
- Don't be misled, some messages are not addressed to the CL newbies,
but to one of the numerous trolls we unfortunately have to deal (or
ignore) here everyday.
In any case, be sure that any newbie coming here with an honest
earnest will to learn CL will always be welcomed warmly. (Of course,
newbies needing to learn the basic use of google might get drier
answers, but this is not comp.search.google, it's comp.lang.lisp).
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Thank you very much for your words of encouragement.
On Feb 2, 3:43 am, ····@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:
> - In don't think the "cognoscienti" feel threatened at all, be it for
> technical reasons, or recently, for social reasons. After all during
> the last ten years, the traffic on cll increased steadily.
I believe I said that 'IT APPEARS', and even as I wrote this I knew I
was painting with a broad brush. Every group has it's own set of
unpleasant souls, but my IMPRESSION is that the ratio on c.l.l. is
higher than my experience in other groups.
> - Given the influx of new CL users, you should now be able to find a
> clique of "young blood" that should be more friendly, if it was
> needed. We count on you to provide soon CL support in the perl
> spirit! Perhaps you will be our savior, writting at least this
> CLPAN equivalent of CPAN.
I'm not nearly good enough to do that, but I've made it a practice to
give at least as much as I get, if not more. And yes, sometimes I can
be harsh to those I perceive as idiots and fools, but I really do try
to be patient.
> - Have you, or are you reading "Practical Common Lisp"?
> http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book
> Given you're background, it's the advised entry point.
I have 'Common LispCraft' by Wilensky, the Seibel book, 'ANSI Lisp' by
Graham, and the Lamkins book. Unfortunately, I also have a full time
job, a full time academic schedule, and a family, so I really am
attempting to learn Lisp in ten minutes a day. Please don't be
critical of this -- I've done the same thing with C and Perl, and I'm
proficient in one and capable in the other.
> - Don't be misled, some messages are not addressed to the CL newbies,
> but to one of the numerous trolls we unfortunately have to deal (or
> ignore) here everyday.
This is no different from other NGs. Personally, I think the best way
to deal with trolls is to be polite and honest, and if that doesn't
work, then don't respond at all.
> In any case, be sure that any newbie coming here with an honest
> earnest will to learn CL will always be welcomed warmly. (Of course,
> newbies needing to learn the basic use of google might get drier
> answers, but this is not comp.search.google, it's comp.lang.lisp).
HUA. In learning a language, you sometimes want to reinvent the wheel
simply for the sake of seeing how the wheel works. However, sometimes
you need just to complete a project, and when Google doesn't work, you
ask people who already know how to do the job.
CC
> HUA. In learning a language, you sometimes want to reinvent the wheel
> simply for the sake of seeing how the wheel works. However, sometimes
> you need just to complete a project, and when Google doesn't work, you
> ask people who already know how to do the job.
>
> CC
That`s the way I feel about programming languages. I just have the
obsession of wanting to program everything from scratch by myself
simply for learning how it works.
cartercc wrote:
>
> As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
> experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
> endangered species on the brink of total extinction. Anyway, I am
> finding the closed mindset of the Lisp community an obstacle
You are right. But still, it only holds for a small
number of people, frequent on this newsgroup and IRC
channel - I'd say, not even majority of the visitors
here. Also, there are many other Lisp communities
consisting of only helpful people. You can check
http://www.lispforum.com as a general Lisp forum with
- as far as I see - more of "usual" atmosphere.
> cartercc wrote:
>
>>
>> As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
>> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
>> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
>> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
>> experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
>> endangered species on the brink of total extinction.
Do you think you are endangered and on the brink of total extinction
because there are so many more cockroaches than you?
hth,kth
Majorinc Kazimir <·····@email.address> writes:
> cartercc wrote:
>
>>
>> As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
>> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
>> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
>> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
>> experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
>> endangered species on the brink of total extinction. Anyway, I am
>> finding the closed mindset of the Lisp community an obstacle
>
>
> You are right. But still, it only holds for a small
> number of people, frequent on this newsgroup and IRC
> channel - I'd say, not even majority of the visitors
> here. Also, there are many other Lisp communities
> consisting of only helpful people. You can check
> http://www.lispforum.com as a general Lisp forum with
> - as far as I see - more of "usual" atmosphere.
Local user groups are also generally a good place to find a supportive
community.
Overall I don't agree that the "congnoscenti" are against people
learning Lisp; they're just less tolerant of people half-heartedly
learning Lisp and complaining that its hard, broken, or useless.
J Kenneth King <·····@agentultra.com> writes:
> Majorinc Kazimir <·····@email.address> writes:
>
>> cartercc wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
>>> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
>>> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
>>> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
>>> experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
>>> endangered species on the brink of total extinction. Anyway, I am
>>> finding the closed mindset of the Lisp community an obstacle
>>
>>
>> You are right. But still, it only holds for a small
>> number of people, frequent on this newsgroup and IRC
>> channel - I'd say, not even majority of the visitors
>> here. Also, there are many other Lisp communities
>> consisting of only helpful people. You can check
>> http://www.lispforum.com as a general Lisp forum with
>> - as far as I see - more of "usual" atmosphere.
>
> Local user groups are also generally a good place to find a supportive
> community.
On the other hand, if we keep sending good newbies to these "fora" and
keep here the trolls, no wonder it becomes unbearable...
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
On 2009-02-02, cartercc <········@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 6:16 pm, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> wrote:
>> > and at some point needs to become familiar with some
>> > functional language, whether it be Lisp[...]
>>
>> I think you need to learn lisp (if you think it's a "functional
>> language" - it's so much more)!
>
> To date, I have developed non-trivial applications in C, Java, Perl,
When you were learning C, did you use the comp.lang.c newsgroup?
> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ... at least in my
See above.
Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com> writes:
> When you were learning C, did you use the comp.lang.c newsgroup?
And even more importantly, complain about how broken the language was to
allow you to have memory leaks and overrun the bounds of your arrays?
What about asking how to redefine the meaning of internal operators so
that assignment used ":=" instead of "=", thus leaving "=" free to
replace "==" as the boolean test operator?
And don't forget about changing the "switch" control structure to use a
different test for comparing the key to the values.
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute
cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
> cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
> newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
> as been the harshest and most unforgiving ...
I think this depends heavily on the attitude of the person posting the
questions. Newbies who post code or snippets with questions about how
to do something or how to improve, simplify, etc. their code tend to get
HUGE amounts of attention, advice and solutions to their problems.
The Lisp community often goes out of its way to find some interesting
solutions to various problems, if the question is posed properly. By
that I mean from an attitude of WANTING TO LEARN and not from an
attitude of wanting to change the language because it's different from
what they are used to. Sometimes the latter type of poster still gets
some good and interesting replies as well.
But what tends to get a really harsh reaction are the set of newbie
posters who start off by complaining about the language and wanting to
start changing lots of features about the language without first
bothering to actually learn the language and get experience.
A number of people who post here have experience using lisp that extends
DECADES beyond what anybody can claim using Java. Many issues have been
carefully thought out, and although Common Lisp does have some warts due
to a goal of maintaining backward compatibility, most of the systems are
designed to work well together. It is often quite easy to shoot holes
in the suggested "improvements" simply because their proponents don't
understand the entire complicated history behind features, and propose
solutions that have hideous flaws that affect other parts of the system
that they haven't even considered. It is the arrogant attitude of such
newcomers that triggers something akin to an allergic (or perhaps
better: immune system) reaction.
So, those who come with a desire to learn the language as it is, and to
master some of its intricacies get plenty of help. Look at all of the
solutions posted, some of them quite clever, to the recent poster who is
having to parse and normalize text records.
> at least in my
> experience. Maybe it's because the Lisp community feels like an
> endangered species on the brink of total extinction. Anyway, I am
> finding the closed mindset of the Lisp community an obstacle
Hmmm. I don't regularly hang out in the other newsgroups or
communities, but my superficial impression is that most of the questions
there are more like "How do I do this?" or "Why isn't this working?"
rather than the all too common theme of posters that "Lisp is broken,
but if you just <insert old discredited idea> then it would be popular."
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute
On Feb 4, 2:47 am, ····@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) wrote:
> cartercc <········@gmail.com> writes:
> > As an outsider looking in on the world of Lisp, it appears that the
> > cognoscenti DON'T WANT (!) people to learn and use Lisp. I've been a
> > newbie in every language I've learned, and by far the Lisp community
> > as been the harshest and most unforgiving ...
>
> I think this depends heavily on the attitude of the person posting the
> questions. Newbies who post code or snippets with questions about how
> to do something or how to improve, simplify, etc. their code tend to get
> HUGE amounts of attention, advice and solutions to their problems.
>
> The Lisp community often goes out of its way to find some interesting
> solutions to various problems, if the question is posed properly. By
> that I mean from an attitude of WANTING TO LEARN and not from an
> attitude of wanting to change the language because it's different from
> what they are used to.
One of my all time favourites is Breaking numbers thread
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/863d89e30d2bb65b/5e98c1f2acc94bc2?hl=en#5e98c1f2acc94bc2
comp.lang.lisp earned the newb a computer and he didn't even said
thanks. But nevermind we got a great solutions and learned many way to
solve the problem.
bobi
On 2009-02-03 20:47:56 -0500, ···@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) said:
> A number of people who post here have experience using lisp that extends
> DECADES beyond what anybody can claim using Java. Many issues have been
> carefully thought out, and although Common Lisp does have some warts due
> to a goal of maintaining backward compatibility, most of the systems are
> designed to work well together. It is often quite easy to shoot holes
> in the suggested "improvements" simply because their proponents don't
> understand the entire complicated history behind features, and propose
> solutions that have hideous flaws that affect other parts of the system
> that they haven't even considered. It is the arrogant attitude of such
> newcomers that triggers something akin to an allergic (or perhaps
> better: immune system) reaction.
I've only highlighted this bit, but imho, your whole post should be
part of the c.l.l FAQ
--
Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> using it profoundly.
>
> I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> unsure about this language:
>
> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
Yes, definitely.
> -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
Yes, definitely.
Start with "Practical Common Lisp" by Peter Seibel or "Paradigms of
Artificial Intelligence Programming" by Peter Norvig. ("Artificial
Intelligence" sounds old-fashioned, but is cool!)
Get yourself the personal edition of LispWorks, or the free edition of
Allegro Common Lisp, and start hacking away.
> -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> programming languages?
Definitely yes. Modern Common Lisp implementations are on par with other
efficient programming languages.
Pascal
--
ELS'09: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
On Jan 31, 2:46 am, ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi everyone. I am 17 year old and I know a little about the basis of
> computers and programming. I know very little C. I understand well
> topics like memory-management, CPU architecture and the factors of the
> difference in speed and memory between High-Level and Low-Level
> Languages (or between two "Same-Level" Languages). I have just started
> learning a little Lisp, and I found it very interesting, especially
> about it's reflectiveness (not saying I feel I am just starting to
> love it). However I haven`t gone into the process of learning and
> using it profoundly.
>
> I just wanted to know your opinion about some things that make me
> unsure about this language:
>
> -Is this language worth using, or at least learning it?
Absolutely, if you are a lisp person. Are you? You will find by
downloading nice free implementation such this http://www.lispworks.com/downloads/index.html
and going to even nicer book such as this http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html
If you don't like lisp after finishing this book, you can start
directly with chapter 3 Eval notation, switch to other language.
>
> -Should I concentrate into learning it deep into its bases?
Sure but learn the basics first.
>
> -Is it's speed and computer resource management comparable or
> acceptable in comparison with other market/industry mainstream
> programming languages?
Performance is not a problem as lisp compilers are matured and
advanced.Speed is far better than more mainstream languages like
Python and Ruby and usually in 20-30% range slower than c/c++. With
some effort even this difference could be removed.
>
> Sorry for my bad english and thanks in advance!
you're wellcomed
bobi