From: Javier
Subject: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmho5i$q0k$3@aioe.org>
As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
activity in cll.
Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
Have a nice day!
On Feb 6, 5:23 pm, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> activity in cll.
>
> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> Have a nice day!
Look at your recent posts:
http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?show=more&enc_user=GOYl2hEAAABLwMzUM-5k2KI3IXQzS5DnkdEasx1kiYTQavV7mdW13Q&group=comp.lang.lisp
There has been not a single post with some useful content of yours in
the last days.
Do you think you can do better?
On Feb 6, 10:52 am, ·······@corporate-world.lisp.de" <······@corporate-
world.lisp.de> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 5:23 pm, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> > there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> > When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> > opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> > When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> > activity in cll.
>
> > Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> > controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> > subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> > Have a nice day!
>
> Look at your recent posts:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?show=more&enc_user=GOYl2hEAAA...
>
> There has been not a single post with some useful content of yours in
> the last days.
Where "useful" means promoting the Commune Lisp religion.
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmhrg8$sse$2@aioe.org>
······@corporate-world.lisp.de escribi�:
> There has been not a single post with some useful content of yours in
> the last days.
It is useful is that awakes you.
> Do you think you can do better?
I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly assisting
newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish. This is something I'm doing for
several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but at least I
do try.
cll is a curiosity. A special place to understand how a geek can convert
himself, along the years repeating the same stupid things, into a fanatical.
Remember, it is completely impossible that there were trolls without
fanaticals. If you don't understand this then you are either a fanatical
or a troll who has yet not reached the point of understanding himself. ;)
For sure, you (all) are a perfect example of what I don't want to end up
being when I have 50.
Have a nice day.
On Feb 6, 6:20 pm, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> ······@corporate-world.lisp.de escribió:
>
> > There has been not a single post with some useful content of yours in
> > the last days.
>
> It is useful is that awakes you.
>
> > Do you think you can do better?
>
> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly assisting
> newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish. This is something I'm doing for
> several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but at least I
> do try.
Somehow you fail to do it here.
>
> cll is a curiosity. A special place to understand how a geek can convert
> himself, along the years repeating the same stupid things, into a fanatical.
> Remember, it is completely impossible that there were trolls without
> fanaticals. If you don't understand this then you are either a fanatical
> or a troll who has yet not reached the point of understanding himself. ;)
>
> For sure, you (all) are a perfect example of what I don't want to end up
> being when I have 50.
I like software development. What I don't want end up is complaining
and whining like you do. Zero contributions, but spreading FUD.
>
> Have a nice day.
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:20:22 +0100, <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly assisting
> newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish.
That must be a joke.
--
Lisp : 'My God, it's full of cars!'
Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> cll is a curiosity. A special place to understand how a geek can convert
> himself, along the years repeating the same stupid things, into a
> fanatical.
...
> For sure, you (all) are a perfect example of what I don't want to end up
> being when I have 50.
Well, then it would seem that the logical conclusion of combining these
thoughts is that you should stay as far away from the cll group as you
possibly can. You don't want to risk becoming a lisp fanatic, right?
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute
On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> ······@corporate-world.lisp.de escribió:
>
>> There has been not a single post with some useful content of yours in
>> the last days.
>
> It is useful is that awakes you.
>
>> Do you think you can do better?
>
> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly assisting
> newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish.
Interesting background.
You will find that some of us are actual software people.
For instance, my current job is kernel hacking at a hardware company. I put
together purely cross-compiled, an embedded Linux distro targetting MIPS and
Intel systems. I have an extensive background in systems-level programming
(mostly in C and C++), on various platforms. I've been into Lisp since around
2000, coming up to nine years now.
So, forum-and-chat Linux-newbie-helping potato, do instruct me in what is best
in programming languages, toolchains and platforms!
> This is something I'm doing for
> several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but at least I
> do try.
Aren't you that guy who came here to troll a while ago then emotionally
self-destructed before our eyes?
You may think are fully recovered now for another round, but you really, really
should think about your health. Trolling is not for everyone.
> For sure, you (all) are a perfect example of what I don't want to end up
> being when I have 50.
But are you prepared to cite some reasons why someone might want to be just
like /you/?
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmi5v3$3je$2@aioe.org>
Kaz Kylheku escribió:
> I've been into Lisp since around
> 2000, coming up to nine years now.
Have you done any relevant thing in CL anyway, or just dedicate all your
lisp efforts in responding to trolls like a fanatic here and there in
lisp forums?
On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku escribió:
>
>> I've been into Lisp since around
>> 2000, coming up to nine years now.
>
> Have you done any relevant thing in CL anyway, or just dedicate all your
> lisp efforts in responding to trolls like a fanatic here and there in
> lisp forums?
I released two open source Lisp programs, and rewrote a subsystem in one
popular Lisp implementation. I've done some non-CL Lisp work too; at my
previous employment I developed a Lisp-like C++ object library which sprouded
an interpreter, that ended up being used for running stress tests on cellular
phone devices.
Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly
> assisting newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish. This is something I'm
> doing for several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but
> at least I do try.
So if you can do it, why don't you do it here?
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmi436$3je$1@aioe.org>
Pascal J. Bourguignon escribi�:
> Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
>> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly
>> assisting newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish. This is something I'm
>> doing for several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but
>> at least I do try.
>
> So if you can do it, why don't you do it here?
>
Because I'm not that good at Lisp, and the times I asked something about
it, someone rude answered very badly.
As such, I just took the same predominant attitude here, and become an
anti-fanatic myself.
Javier wrote:
> Pascal J. Bourguignon escribi�:
>> Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
>>> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly
>>> assisting newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish. This is something I'm
>>> doing for several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but
>>> at least I do try.
>>
>> So if you can do it, why don't you do it here?
>>
>
> Because I'm not that good at Lisp, and the times I asked something about
> it, someone rude answered very badly.
Plz tell me you do not have the same philosophy towards dating.
hth,kth
ps. You probably deserved it, this group loves noobs. k
On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pascal J. Bourguignon escribió:
>> Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
>>> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly
>>> assisting newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish. This is something I'm
>>> doing for several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but
>>> at least I do try.
>>
>> So if you can do it, why don't you do it here?
>>
>
> Because I'm not that good at Lisp, and the times I asked something about
> it, someone rude answered very badly.
> As such, I just took the same predominant attitude here, and become an
> anti-fanatic myself.
And so you're retaliating against an entire newsgroup, which includes people
who weren't rude and didn't answer you badly?
How emotionally healthy of you.
/Were/ people rude and answer you badly in response to help?
I can't find any evidence about this by searching Google's Usenet achives. All
I can find for your present identity is 100% pure trolling, dating back to
October 2008.
Thus, this alleged rude treatment must have happened when you were posting to
Usenet using a different identity, right?
If you have an accusation to make, please document it properly.
Citing specific Message-ID: headers would be helpful.
On 2009-02-06, Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Pascal J. Bourguignon escribió:
>>> Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> I think I'm doing very well in other forums and chats, mainly
>>>> assisting newbies in Linux, mainly in Spanish. This is something I'm
>>>> doing for several years now, not with the intensity I would like, but
>>>> at least I do try.
>>>
>>> So if you can do it, why don't you do it here?
>>>
>>
>> Because I'm not that good at Lisp, and the times I asked something about
>> it, someone rude answered very badly.
>> As such, I just took the same predominant attitude here, and become an
>> anti-fanatic myself.
>
> And so you're retaliating against an entire newsgroup, which includes people
> who weren't rude and didn't answer you badly?
>
> How emotionally healthy of you.
>
> /Were/ people rude and answer you badly in response to help?
I see now where the real turning point took place. Anyone remember a thread
called ``I want to create my own language? Oct 20, 2008. By this time you had
already shown signs of sliding into trollling:
You started the thread with this proclamation:
As the title says, I want to create my own language.
I want it to have a similar syntax to Python (but I don't want it to
be Python, I have some ideas about it which are surely going to make
it incompatible).
I want it to be programmed in Lisp.
I'd like to know what would you do if you were me. For example, where
to start looking for information, what books to read, what errors to
avoid, what design to choose, and whatever yo may think about it.
Also, ideas about how the language might be are also welcome.
Direct replies were from: myself, Nicolas Edel, Willem Broekema, Feng Liu, and
Tamas K. Papp. Most of them were sincere, polite. But Tamas' reponse was
somewhat sarcastic in tone (and deservedly so):
If the only objective is that this language should be a new one created
by you, then your task is easy because you can keep the language simple.
I would suggest that you introduce a single operator called !, that adds
413 to its argument.
Examples:
!0 => 413
!42 => 455
!!!3.141593 => 1242.141593
What an excellent language! The Scheme folks would admire it for its
simplicity. Implementation can be pretty fast because of constant
folding (if you ask nicely, people here will hack together a compiler for
you).
This was your response:
What a bullshit.
We have a word in spanish, impossible to translate into english, which
describes you perfectly: "gilipollas".
Have a nice day.
Totally uncalled for. Tamas was exactly right on. You showed you had no idea
what you wanted, so he gave you one.
You also accused Nicolas Edel of being ``dense''.
Then you showed some Python-like program snippet whose statements were supposed
to denote persistent store semantics like those of Allegro Cache. I explained
that the semantics were independent of syntax; you could play with the
interesting persistent store semantics /without/ Python-like syntax, which
isn't in and of itself interesting.
This is how you repaid me for taking an interest in your posting and responding
in earnest:
You bastard, gilipollas. :-D
I didn't ask you to translate into Lisp that example of what I want
the syntax of my language to be.
I didn't said I was inventing new semantics.
I didn't said that Python syntax is required for persistence.
I said I want to write my own language. If you are not able to
understand it, just shut up.
I bet you to stop publishing stupid responses. Better for your
credibility, if you have one...
I did not reply to this. But Thomas Russ did:
[Russ, Oct 21, 2008]
TR> Javier <·······@gmail.com> writes:
TR> > I bet you to stop publishing stupid responses. Better for your
TR> > credibility, if you have one...
TR>
TR>
TR> I bet you will have to stop being so arrogant and abusive if you want to
TR> continue to receive helpful replies from this newsgroup. You are very
TR> close to tripping my threshold for my kill file.
As you can see, /you/ are the one who started the personal attacks and
rudeness.
Would you consider it rude to ask you to kindly go back and re-read those
threads to repair the holes in your selective memory?
You can easily fix things to the way they were.
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmiehk$dvh$2@aioe.org>
Kaz Kylheku escribió:
> As you can see, /you/ are the one who started the personal attacks and
> rudeness.
No, personal attack was started by Tamas, as you clearly put before. He
obtained the response he deserved, the same as you when decided to join
his offensive attack.
And exactly the same you are doing know.
But this will not change the fact of the original topic: Trolls and
fanaticals, and you are BOTH.
On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku escribió:
>
>> As you can see, /you/ are the one who started the personal attacks and
>> rudeness.
>
> No, personal attack was started by Tamas, as you clearly put before.
What Tamas wrote was far, far from a personal attack. He used sarcasm to
(aptly) criticize your /idea/ (or the lack of it), not /you/.
You're obviously a hyper-sensitive asshole who has no business in ...
... in ... a man's body?
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmihv0$dvh$6@aioe.org>
Kaz Kylheku escribió:
> On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kaz Kylheku escribió:
>>
>>> As you can see, /you/ are the one who started the personal attacks and
>>> rudeness.
>> No, personal attack was started by Tamas, as you clearly put before.
>
> What Tamas wrote was far, far from a personal attack. He used sarcasm to
> (aptly) criticize your /idea/ (or the lack of it), not /you/.
>
> You're obviously a hyper-sensitive asshole who has no business in ...
> ... in ... a man's body?
Oh yeah and I criticized your idea and what do I obtain? An insult.
Are you then an hyper-sensitive asshole who has no business in ...
... in ... a man's body?
No.
You're just a fanatic that don't like to be discovered. You got nervous
when asking about your success using Lisp for the real life. I can
understand you.
Like you, most people here. You're not alone.
I'm retiring for this thread, too. It has no sense anymore.
Have fun.
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Kaz Kylheku escribió:
> >
> >> As you can see, you are the one who started the personal attacks
> and >> rudeness.
> >
> > No, personal attack was started by Tamas, as you clearly put before.
>
> What Tamas wrote was far, far from a personal attack. He used sarcasm
> to (aptly) criticize your idea (or the lack of it), not you.
Nonsense, of course. To mock a man's ideas is to mock the man.
>
> You're obviously a hyper-sensitive asshole who has no business in ...
> ... in ... a man's body?
Commune-Lispers are the truly hyper-sensitive ones. They take the
very apt mockery of their tawdry, ugly, cargo-cult religion very
personally.
Those of you who are not members of the disgusting cult of LISP-worship
should ask yourselves this: in what other newsgroup do people respond
to criticism of their favorite programming language with the epithet
"asshole"? Can it be that Lispers are pathologically sensitive because
they have so much to be sensitive about?
They continually boast that their language is the supreme deity of
programming lingos, and then they fly into a violent rage when it is
demonstrated that any COMMUNE-LISP program can be more concisely and
elegantly written in a modern language like Ruby.
On Feb 7, 2:29 am, "William James" <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
> They continually boast that their language is the supreme deity of
> programming lingos, and then they fly into a violent rage when it is
> demonstrated that any COMMUNE-LISP program can be more concisely and
> elegantly written in a modern language like Ruby.
Try to replicate this in Ruby and report back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4
On Feb 7, 3:08 am, ·······@corporate-world.lisp.de" <······@corporate-
world.lisp.de> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2:29 am, "William James" <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > They continually boast that their language is the supreme deity of
> > programming lingos, and then they fly into a violent rage when it is
> > demonstrated that any COMMUNE-LISP program can be more concisely and
> > elegantly written in a modern language like Ruby.
>
> Try to replicate this in Ruby and report back:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4
Let's see COMMUNE-RUBY:
class Cell
attr_accessor :cell_state
attr_writer :queued_state
attr_reader :neighbors
protected :neighbors
# creates a new Cell with a state of "dead"
def initialize
@neighbors = []
@cell_state = :dead
@queued_state = nil
end
# adds a neighbor to this cell. this
# method takes care of hooking up the bi-directional
# relationship so the 2 cells do not need to be added
# to each other as neighbors, only 1 of them needs
# to be notified of the relationship
def add_neighbor(cell)
unless @neighbors.include? cell
@neighbors << cell
cell.neighbors << self
end
end
# return the number of neighbors that this cell has
def number_of_neighbors
@neighbors.size
end
# returns the number of live neighbors this cell has
def number_of_live_neighbors
live_neighbors = @neighbors.find_all {|cell| cell.cell_state
== :live}
live_neighbors.size
end
# Transitions this cell to its next state of evolution
def transition_state
if @queued_state != nil
@cell_state = @queued_state
@queued_state = nil
end
end
end
require 'cell'
class CellGrid
def initialize (rows, columns)
@cells = Array.new rows
for row in 0...rows
@cells[row] = Array.new columns
for column in 0...columns
cell = Cell.new
@cells[row][column] = cell
if row > 0
cell.add_neighbor @cells[row-1][column]
cell.add_neighbor @cells[row-1][column+1] if column <=
columns - 2
end
if column > 0
cell.add_neighbor @cells[row][column-1]
cell.add_neighbor @cells[row-1][column-1] if row > 0
end
end
end
end
def cell_at (row, column)
@cells[row][column]
end
def row_count
@cells.size
end
def column_count
@cells[0].size
end
def evolve
each_cell do |cell|
# kill the lonely
cell.queued_state = :dead if cell.cell_state == :live &&
cell.number_of_live_neighbors < 2
# kill the overcrowded
cell.queued_state = :dead if cell.cell_state == :live &&
cell.number_of_live_neighbors > 3
# give birth
cell.queued_state = :live if cell.cell_state == :dead &&
cell.number_of_live_neighbors == 3
end
each_cell do |cell|
cell.transition_state
end
end
def kill_all
each_cell do |cell|
cell.cell_state = :dead
cell.queued_state = nil
end
end
def each_cell
@cells.each do |row|
row.each do |cell|
yield cell
end
end
end
end
require 'fox14'
require 'fx_grid_canvas'
require 'cellgrid'
include Fox
class ConwayWindow < FXMainWindow
WIDTH = 769
HEIGHT = 430
GRIDSIZE = 25
def initialize(app)
super(app, "RLife - Conways Game Of Life", nil, nil, DECOR_TITLE |
DECOR_BORDER | DECOR_CLOSE |LAYOUT_FILL_X|LAYOUT_FILL_Y, 0, 0, WIDTH,
HEIGHT)
FXToolTip.new(app)
FXStatusBar.new(self, LAYOUT_SIDE_BOTTOM|LAYOUT_FILL_X)
@cell_grid = CellGrid.new(16, 16)
rightFrame = FXVerticalFrame.new(self,LAYOUT_SIDE_TOP|
LAYOUT_SIDE_RIGHT|LAYOUT_FILL_Y)
desc = <<EOS
Conway's Game Of Life is a cellular automaton originally conceived by
John Conway in the early 1970's.
Use the mouse to interactively define a starting grid by clicking on
cells in the grid to bring them to life. Clicking on a cell toggles
its
live state. Click and drag to bring a bunch of cells to life. Live
cells are represented with green circles.
The rules of evolution are as follows:
- If a live cell has more than 3 live neighbors, it dies from
overcrowding
- If a live cell has fewer than 2 live neighbors, it dies from
loneliness
- If a dead cell has exactly 3 live neighbors, it comes to life
Click the \"Evolve\" button to iterate through generations one at a
time.
Click the "Clear" button to clear the grid.
EOS
FXLabel.new(rightFrame, desc, nil, JUSTIFY_LEFT)
buttonFrame = FXHorizontalFrame.new(rightFrame,
LAYOUT_SIDE_TOP|
LAYOUT_SIDE_RIGHT|LAYOUT_FILL_Y)
nextGenerationButton = FXButton.new(buttonFrame,
"&Evolve\tEvolve The System
\tEvolve The System",
nil, nil, 0,FRAME_RAISED|
FRAME_THICK|LAYOUT_FIX_WIDTH|LAYOUT_FIX_HEIGHT,0, 0,
70, 30)
clearButton = FXButton.new(buttonFrame,
"&Clear\tClear all live cells\tClear
all live cells",
nil, nil, 0,FRAME_RAISED|FRAME_THICK|
LAYOUT_FIX_WIDTH|LAYOUT_FIX_HEIGHT,0, 0,
70, 30)
quitButton = FXButton.new(buttonFrame,
"&Quit\tExit the Program\tExit the
Program",
nil, nil, 0,FRAME_RAISED|FRAME_THICK|
LAYOUT_FIX_WIDTH|LAYOUT_FIX_HEIGHT,0, 0,
70, 30)
canvasFrame = FXVerticalFrame.new(self,
FRAME_RIDGE|LAYOUT_FILL_X|
LAYOUT_FILL_Y|
LAYOUT_TOP|LAYOUT_LEFT,
0, 0, 0, 0, 0,0,0,0)
@canvas = GridCanvas.new(canvasFrame, @cell_grid)
quitButton.connect(SEL_COMMAND) {
getApp().exit(0)
}
nextGenerationButton.connect(SEL_COMMAND) {
@cell_grid.evolve
@canvas.draw_grid
}
clearButton.connect(SEL_COMMAND) {
@cell_grid.kill_all
@canvas.draw_grid
}
end
def create
super
show(PLACEMENT_SCREEN)
end
end
if __FILE__ == $0
# Construct an application
application = FXApp.new("RLife", "rubygroup")
# Construct the main window
ConwayWindow.new(application)
# Create the application
application.create
# Run it
application.run
end
require 'fox14'
require 'fox14/colors'
require 'cellgrid'
include Fox
class GridCanvas < FXCanvas
GRIDSIZE = 25
def initialize(frame, cell_grid)
super(frame, nil, 0, FRAME_RAISED|LAYOUT_FILL_X|LAYOUT_FILL_Y|
LAYOUT_TOP|LAYOUT_LEFT)
@cell_grid = cell_grid
@width = @cell_grid.column_count * GRIDSIZE
@height = @cell_grid.row_count * GRIDSIZE
@grid_background = FXColor::DarkGray
@grid_foreground = FXColor::LightGray
@live_cell_color = FXColor::SpringGreen
@dragging = false
connect(SEL_PAINT) do |sender, sel, event|
draw_grid
end
# the dragging stuff here is almost certainly not the
# "correct" way to git-r-dun... pending enlightenment
connect(SEL_LEFTBUTTONPRESS) do |sender, sel, event|
toggle_cell_at_location(event.click_x, event.click_y)
@dragging = true
end
connect(SEL_LEFTBUTTONRELEASE) do |sender, sel, event|
@dragging = false
end
connect(SEL_MOTION) do |sender, sel, event|
handle_drag(event.win_x, event.win_y) if @dragging
end
end
def draw_grid
FXDCWindow.new(self) do |dc|
self.backColor = @grid_background
dc.foreground = self.backColor
dc.fillRectangle(0, 0, width, height)
dc.foreground = @grid_foreground
0.step(@width, GRIDSIZE) do |column|
dc.drawLine(column, 0, column, @height)
end
0.step(@height, GRIDSIZE) do |row|
dc.drawLine(0, row, @width, row)
end
dc.foreground = @live_cell_color
for row in ····@cell_grid.row_count
for column in ····@cell_grid.column_count
cell = @cell_grid.cell_at(row, column)
if(cell.cell_state == :live)
x = (column * GRIDSIZE) + (GRIDSIZE / 2)
y = (row * GRIDSIZE) + (GRIDSIZE / 2)
dc.fillCircle(x, y, GRIDSIZE / 3)
end
end
end
end
end
def handle_drag(x, y)
cell = cell_at_location(x, y)
if cell && cell.cell_state == :dead
cell.cell_state = :live
draw_grid
end
end
def toggle_cell_at_location(x, y)
cell = cell_at_location(x, y)
if cell
if cell.cell_state == :dead
cell.cell_state = :live
else
cell.cell_state = :dead
end
draw_grid
end
end
def cell_at_location(x, y)
cell = nil
column = x / GRIDSIZE
row = y / GRIDSIZE
cell = @cell_grid.cell_at(row, column) if column <
@cell_grid.column_count && row < @cell_grid.row_count
cell
end
end
---
The core of that is one line in APL.
On Feb 6, 7:29 pm, ·······@corporate-world.lisp.de" <······@corporate-
world.lisp.de> wrote:
>
> The core of that is one line in APL.
>
It could be one line in most any language. Even in C:
#include <APL.h>
int main (int argc, char* argv[]) {
APL("life = {>1 w v.^ 3 4 = +/ +- 1 0 -1 o.O 1 0 -1 p'' <w");
APL("{} {pic = ' * '[w] @ ·@dl + 8 <> life %} *= RR");
return 0;
}
Although a language that supports Unicode for source code could make
it more authentic. Data can still be code - even in C. This is how
many regular expression libraries work. It could work for an array
processing library too.
Thank you for the link. I had never seen APL up close before.
On Feb 7, 5:06 am, Scott <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 7:29 pm, ·······@corporate-world.lisp.de" <······@corporate-
>
> world.lisp.de> wrote:
>
> > The core of that is one line in APL.
>
> It could be one line in most any language. Even in C:
>
> #include <APL.h>
>
> int main (int argc, char* argv[]) {
> APL("life = {>1 w v.^ 3 4 = +/ +- 1 0 -1 o.O 1 0 -1 p'' <w");
> APL("{} {pic = ' * '[w] @ ·@dl + 8 <> life %} *= RR");
> return 0;
> }
Looks great.
The interesting part now is APL.h .
> Although a language that supports Unicode for source code could make
> it more authentic. Data can still be code - even in C. This is how
> many regular expression libraries work. It could work for an array
> processing library too.
>
> Thank you for the link. I had never seen APL up close before.
On 2009-02-07, Scott <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 7:29 pm, ·······@corporate-world.lisp.de" <······@corporate-
> world.lisp.de> wrote:
>>
>> The core of that is one line in APL.
>>
>
> It could be one line in most any language. Even in C:
>
> #include <APL.h>
>
> int main (int argc, char* argv[]) {
> APL("life = {>1 w v.^ 3 4 = +/ +- 1 0 -1 o.O 1 0 -1 p'' <w");
> APL("{} {pic = ' * '[w] @ ·@dl + 8 <> life %} *= RR");
> return 0;
> }
Fistly, I see seven lines there.
Secondly, I would somewhat disagree that embedding another language as a string
literal in C, makes that a C language solution. That's along the lines of
calling 42 a Lisp quine, due to the behavior of the REPL.
Third, the above isn't a complete C program. It uses a header which isn't
shown, and relies on external linkage to an identifier which isn't defined
anywhere.
If you include the materials which make this a complete C program, it's no
longer just seven lines.
If the solution has to carry an APL implementation with it, it's hard to call
it anything but an APL solution.
It might be somewhat more convincing if the APL string literals could contain
an occurence of "argc" which actualy lexically refers to the int argc
parameter. That would show that C can properly embed another language.
> Although a language that supports Unicode for source code could make
> it more authentic. Data can still be code - even in C.
But that data isn't code in C. It's a character string in C.
It's code to an APL interpreter.
On Feb 6, 9:57 pm, Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Firstly, I see seven lines there.
>
Yup, C has more boilerplate than many other languages. Being only 3.5
times more verbose than APL is pretty good I think. (The APL program
had at least two required lines as I saw it...)
>
> Secondly, I would somewhat disagree that embedding another language as a string
> literal in C, makes that a C language solution. That's along the lines of
> calling 42 a Lisp quine, due to the behavior of the REPL.
>
It doesn't occur to most programmers that they can write data driven
algorithms in most any language.
>
> Third, the above isn't a complete C program. It uses a header which isn't
> shown, and relies on external linkage to an identifier which isn't defined
> anywhere.
>
> If you include the materials which make this a complete C program, it's no
> longer just seven lines.
>
> If the solution has to carry an APL implementation with it, it's hard to call
> it anything but an APL solution.
>
I doubt you would fault a Lisp program for using an FFI wrapper around
a good C or Fortran library. And you probably don't include the
implementation of cons (and the garbage collector) when you do a line
count on these other golf programs.
>
> It might be somewhat more convincing if the APL string literals could contain
> an occurence of "argc" which actualy lexically refers to the int argc
> parameter. That would show that C can properly embed another language.
>
Fair enough - typical C implementations don't let you look up names in
your caller's scope at run time. I know I could do that in Python and
Tcl though.
The format function uses strings as a mini-language. I could have
easily made the APL() function take varargs and passed in additional
arguments as needed - including callbacks to C functions.
> > Although a language that supports Unicode for source code could make
> > it more authentic. Data can still be code - even in C.
>
> But that data isn't code in C. It's a character string in C.
> It's code to an APL interpreter.
It is data and it is code. (That is, it would be if it wasn't just
gibberish meant to look like APL.)
Scott wrote:
> I doubt you would fault a Lisp program for using an FFI wrapper around
> a good C or Fortran library. And you probably don't include the
> implementation of cons (and the garbage collector) when you do a line
> count on these other golf programs.
Ok, with this concept you can prove that every program in all computer
languages are exactly 3 lines shorter than the same in C:
#include <languageX>
int main(int argc, char** argv) {
languageXEval(string);
}
is the same as
string
in languageX. I think the point (if there is a point) in comparing
languages is to use the built-in libraries and functions, only, which means
something like stdio.h in C or cons and the garbage collector in Lisp. Now
implement something like the GC and closures in plain C in an easy to use
and easy to read way.
--
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
On 2009-02-07, William James <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Those of you who are not members of the disgusting cult of LISP-worship
> should ask yourselves this: in what other newsgroup do people respond
> to criticism of their favorite programming language with the epithet
> "asshole"?
Can you cite a comp.lang.lisp Message-ID in order to back up this
allegation?
On 6 Feb, 17:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> ... Have a nice day!
I never ask any CL related question here, because:
- I really did my homework by myself (which seems rare nowadays)
- I really *studied* profoundly some of the best Lisp books
- I always learn most when I try to find the solution by myself
And I think that, given a really high-end language like CL, there are
many many (if not most) people *really* interested in CL, that simply
act like me.
Lisp is dead? I started learning Lisp a few years ago, and I see the
user base growing and growing and growing...
-PM
On Feb 6, 6:40 pm, ········@gmail.com wrote:
> On 6 Feb, 17:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ... Have a nice day!
>
> I never ask any CL related question here, because:
>
> - I really did my homework by myself (which seems rare nowadays)
> - I really *studied* profoundly some of the best Lisp books
> - I always learn most when I try to find the solution by myself
>
> And I think that, given a really high-end language like CL, there are
> many many (if not most) people *really* interested in CL, that simply
> act like me.
I know a lot of Lisp users that never post here. Plus there are
quite a few good ones who stopped posting here.
There are different reasons. Some are busy, others shy,
some don't see the value, others don' use Usenet.
There is now a webforum ( http://www.lispforum.com/ ) that
some are using.
>
> Lisp is dead? I started learning Lisp a few years ago, and I see the
> user base growing and growing and growing...
That's my impression, too. Also the quality of the contributions
is increasing. The free implementations are in pretty good shape,
thanks to a lot of contributors. Community activity
(local meetings, lisp symposium, lisp meeting, lisp
conference) is also looking good.
>
> -PM
On 6 Feb, 16:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> activity in cll.
>
> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> Have a nice day!
Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
In bygone days when I taught students, I used to have to deal with
beginner's questions of all kinds. Some were dumb, some were the
result of laziness, some were quite insightful. I learnt to deal with
them all with a modicum of patience and generosity because I conceived
that this was part of what my job was about. Not everybody felt that
way.
There is a kind of teacher who regards students as tiresome nuisances
and their questions as opportunities for sarcastic putdowns. Just
about everybody remembers a teacher like that. These teachers are
simply bad teachers and the students rightly dislike them.
There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of cll
too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the new
blood and its not good for Lisp.
Mark
On 7 Feb., 00:14, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> On 6 Feb, 16:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> > there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> > When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> > opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> > When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> > activity in cll.
>
> > Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> > controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> > subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> > Have a nice day!
>
> Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> In bygone days when I taught students, I used to have to deal with
> beginner's questions of all kinds. Some were dumb, some were the
> result of laziness, some were quite insightful. I learnt to deal with
> them all with a modicum of patience and generosity because I conceived
> that this was part of what my job was about. Not everybody felt that
> way.
>
> There is a kind of teacher who regards students as tiresome nuisances
> and their questions as opportunities for sarcastic putdowns. Just
> about everybody remembers a teacher like that. These teachers are
> simply bad teachers and the students rightly dislike them.
>
> There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of cll
> too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the new
> blood and its not good for Lisp.
>
> Mark
Well, Mark, the people who answer questions here use their time
to do that. You could invest YOUR time to improve the response
to newbies. But you don't. You step in to make a remark like this
and then you are gone.
On 6 Feb, 23:18, ·······@corporate-world.lisp.de" <······@corporate-
world.lisp.de> wrote:
> On 7 Feb., 00:14, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 6 Feb, 16:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> > > there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> > > When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> > > opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> > > When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> > > activity in cll.
>
> > > Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> > > controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> > > subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> > > Have a nice day!
>
> > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> > In bygone days when I taught students, I used to have to deal with
> > beginner's questions of all kinds. Some were dumb, some were the
> > result of laziness, some were quite insightful. I learnt to deal with
> > them all with a modicum of patience and generosity because I conceived
> > that this was part of what my job was about. Not everybody felt that
> > way.
>
> > There is a kind of teacher who regards students as tiresome nuisances
> > and their questions as opportunities for sarcastic putdowns. Just
> > about everybody remembers a teacher like that. These teachers are
> > simply bad teachers and the students rightly dislike them.
>
> > There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of cll
> > too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the new
> > blood and its not good for Lisp.
>
> > Mark
>
> Well, Mark, the people who answer questions here use their time
> to do that. You could invest YOUR time to improve the response
> to newbies. But you don't. You step in to make a remark like this
> and then you are gone.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well I do help people - 33 posts last month, 109 in December, but I
mainly live on Qilang now. If you really find your newbies a PITA you
can send them along .....
Actually, sad thing is, three people being nice doesn't completely
counteract one person being nasty. The world would be much happier if
that were not true. So if someone gets a roasting and a put down,
that is what he will take away from the thread even if others are nice
to him. And he will come back like Javier weeks or months later with
this memory in his heart.
Mark
On 7 Feb., 00:43, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> > > There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of cll
> > > too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the new
> > > blood and its not good for Lisp.
>
> > > Mark
>
> > Well, Mark, the people who answer questions here use their time
> > to do that. You could invest YOUR time to improve the response
> > to newbies. But you don't. You step in to make a remark like this
> > and then you are gone.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Well I do help people - 33 posts last month, 109 in December, but I
> mainly live on Qilang now. If you really find your newbies a PITA you
> can send them along .....
What? Mark, now you are an asshole. Nobody said that newbies are
a PITA. I find your remark very unfriendly.
Mark Tarver wrote:
>
> There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of cll
> too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the new
> blood and its not good for Lisp.
Good post with right measure, Mark. I can sign
every word.
On 2009-02-07, Majorinc Kazimir <·····@email.address> wrote:
> Mark Tarver wrote:
>
>>
>> There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of cll
>> too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the new
>> blood and its not good for Lisp.
>
> Good post with right measure, Mark. I can sign
> every word.
Here is a crayon. Try to keep the X's on the paper.
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2009-02-07, Majorinc Kazimir <·····@email.address> wrote:
> > Mark Tarver wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of
> cll >> too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the
> new >> blood and its not good for Lisp.
> >
> > Good post with right measure, Mark. I can sign
> > every word.
>
> Here is a crayon. Try to keep the X's on the paper.
Is this a fairly accurate word-picture of you?
The shape of it was as a lion, but bigger and taller, the
colour a dull red, and it had prickles lancing out behind,
as of a porcupine; its face a man's face, if aught so
hideous might be conceived of human kind, with staring
eyeballs, low wrinkled brow, elephant ears, some wispy mangy
likeness of a lion's mane, huge bony chaps, brown
blood-stained gubber-tushes grinning betwixt bristly lips.
On 7 Feb, 05:09, "William James" <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> > On 2009-02-07, Majorinc Kazimir <·····@email.address> wrote:
> > > Mark Tarver wrote:
>
> > >> There are some decent people here, but the gestalt personality of
> > cll >> too often leans to the sarcastic and this is not good for the
> > new >> blood and its not good for Lisp.
>
> > > Good post with right measure, Mark. I can sign
> > > every word.
>
> > Here is a crayon. Try to keep the X's on the paper.
>
> Is this a fairly accurate word-picture of you?
>
> The shape of it was as a lion, but bigger and taller, the
> colour a dull red, and it had prickles lancing out behind,
> as of a porcupine; its face a man's face, if aught so
> hideous might be conceived of human kind, with staring
> eyeballs, low wrinkled brow, elephant ears, some wispy mangy
> likeness of a lion's mane, huge bony chaps, brown
> blood-stained gubber-tushes grinning betwixt bristly lips.
Hey... Where'ìs the Ruby version of that? :)
Cheers
--
Marco
Marco Antoniotti <·······@gmail.com> wrote in news:845ac55f-20b1-4e40-a9b5-
············@v13g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> On 7 Feb, 05:09, "William James" <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> � The shape of it was as a lion, but bigger and taller, the
> Hey... Where'�s the Ruby version of that? :)
That was published before Common Lisp was conceived. The real William
James only likes modern stuff, like Ruby. So, obviously, that wasn't the
real William James.
On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
with harshly?
bobi
Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> with harshly?
>
> bobi
An all-time classic:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/88a36fb2c239a44e/4c95766a8bdda347?#4c95766a8bdda347
An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
On Feb 9, 3:33 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> > On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> > Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> > with harshly?
>
> > bobi
>
> An all-time classic:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/...
>
> An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
> compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
> bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
> other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
> dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
Good, now compare that one behaviour with all the helpful posts Pascal
gave to this group. I could thank him myself for at least dozen
replies that were far better and faster that any PAID technical
support that I had in my life.How many lisp newbies you helped in your
life? Or you label yourself a Haskell programmer. Than what the hell
you are doing here? I certainly don't come into your group and talk
how Haskell sucks and you are bunch of losers and that Haskell should
immediately adapt this or that to become like my favourite language.
bobi
On 9 Feb, 14:54, Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 9, 3:33 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> > > On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > > > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > > > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > > > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > > > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > > > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > > > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> > > Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> > > with harshly?
>
> > > bobi
>
> > An all-time classic:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/...
>
> > An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
> > compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
> > bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
> > other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
> > dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
>
> Good, now compare that one behaviour with all the helpful posts Pascal
> gave to this group.
You asked for one example, I think.
> I could thank him myself for at least dozen
> replies that were far better and faster that any PAID technical
> support that I had in my life.How many lisp newbies you helped in your
> life? Or you label yourself a Haskell programmer. Than what the hell
> you are doing here? I certainly don't come into your group and talk
> how Haskell sucks and you are bunch of losers and that Haskell should
> immediately adapt this or that to become like my favourite language.
>
> bobi
Slow down mate. Did I say lisp sucked? Did I claim to have worked out
how to
fix it? (I know, BTW, but I'm not telling.) Did I call you a bunch of
losers? I use lisp and
I'm being flippant about the main attraction of cll being
its bad-tempered and self-defensive inhabitants, but if you don't
recognise
it has this reputation then you must not get out much. I don't think
you should
worry about it though, most see it as part of your charm.
Jim Burton wrote:
> On 9 Feb, 14:54, Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 3:33 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> > > > On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > > > > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > > > > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > > > > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > > > > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > > > > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > > > > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
> >
> > > > Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> > > > with harshly?
> >
> > > > bobi
> >
> > > An all-time classic:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/...
> >
> > > An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
> > > compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
> > > bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
> > > other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
> > > dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
> >
> > Good, now compare that one behaviour with all the helpful posts Pascal
> > gave to this group.
>
> You asked for one example, I think
I asked Mark for one example, not you. When I want to have discussion
with someone I always measure who I'm talking to , beside the argument
one used.
>
> > I could thank him myself for at least dozen
> > replies that were far better and faster that any PAID technical
> > support that I had in my life.How many lisp newbies you helped in your
> > life? Or you label yourself a Haskell programmer. Than what the hell
> > you are doing here? I certainly don't come into your group and talk
> > how Haskell sucks and you are bunch of losers and that Haskell should
> > immediately adapt this or that to become like my favourite language.
> >
> > bobi
>
> Slow down mate. Did I say lisp sucked? Did I claim to have worked out
> how to
> fix it? (I know, BTW, but I'm not telling.) Did I call you a bunch of
> losers? I use lisp and
> I'm being flippant about the main attraction of cll being
> its bad-tempered and self-defensive inhabitants, but if you don't
> recognise
> it has this reputation then you must not get out much. I don't think
> you should
> worry about it though, most see it as part of your charm.
When you mentioned that post, you pointed to a person who helped many
people countless of times and presented him as villain. Mentioning
that post without also considering the other deads of the author is
blatant disrespect toward this group and people that making it helpful
and informative place.This is group is not made of saints but let
those who are without sin cast the first stone. What useful thing did
you Jim Burton shared in this newsgroup to accuse others of
misbehaviour? Looking in your 14 posts, which btw are mostly
crossposting with other groups, doesn't reveal anything even remotely
useful, such as lisp code or recommendation for lisp related material
(books, implementations , libraries). All you seem to do is adding
your personal which wouldn't completely out of place. This is
comp.lang.lisp group mostly aimed at common lisp and other lisps who
doesn't have their separate group. The folks who prefer something else
should be better served at their favourite language newsgroup. It is
very normal that when you go watching baseball that people who watch
baseball enjoy baseball. If you only came there to whine and you would
rather watch something else why the hell you are wasting your time and
money and pissing off the crowd with your remarks that somehing else
is better.
bobi
On 9 Feb, 20:13, Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Jim Burton wrote:
> > On 9 Feb, 14:54, Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Feb 9, 3:33 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > > > > > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > > > > > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > > > > > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > > > > > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > > > > > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > > > > > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> > > > > Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> > > > > with harshly?
>
> > > > > bobi
>
> > > > An all-time classic:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/...
>
> > > > An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
> > > > compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
> > > > bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
> > > > other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
> > > > dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
>
> > > Good, now compare that one behaviour with all the helpful posts Pascal
> > > gave to this group.
>
> > You asked for one example, I think
>
> I asked Mark for one example, not you. When I want to have discussion
> with someone I always measure who I'm talking to , beside the argument
> one used.
>
OK Bobi. Mark needs to provide one example because of his undoubted
lisp credentials. I don't have these credentials, so how many examples
do I need before my observations have equal force? A rough estimate
will do.
>
>
>
>
> > > I could thank him myself for at least dozen
> > > replies that were far better and faster that any PAID technical
> > > support that I had in my life.How many lisp newbies you helped in your
> > > life? Or you label yourself a Haskell programmer. Than what the hell
> > > you are doing here? I certainly don't come into your group and talk
> > > how Haskell sucks and you are bunch of losers and that Haskell should
> > > immediately adapt this or that to become like my favourite language.
>
> > > bobi
>
> > Slow down mate. Did I say lisp sucked? Did I claim to have worked out
> > how to
> > fix it? (I know, BTW, but I'm not telling.) Did I call you a bunch of
> > losers? I use lisp and
> > I'm being flippant about the main attraction of cll being
> > its bad-tempered and self-defensive inhabitants, but if you don't
> > recognise
> > it has this reputation then you must not get out much. I don't think
> > you should
> > worry about it though, most see it as part of your charm.
>
> When you mentioned that post, you pointed to a person who helped many
> people countless of times and presented him as villain. Mentioning
> that post without also considering the other deads of the author is
> blatant disrespect toward this group and people that making it helpful
> and informative place.
Hmm, now you want examples of newbies being treated roughly plus an
assessment of the character and USENET career of the author. (Does it
matter if the person providing the example has a cll reputation <= the
author?) It's getting complicated. I dunno if the OP of the thread
knew about the other deeds of the author either.
Anyway, I thought it was funny personally which was why I posted the
link.
> This is group is not made of saints but let
> those who are without sin cast the first stone. What useful thing did
> you Jim Burton shared in this newsgroup to accuse others of
> misbehaviour? Looking in your 14 posts, which btw are mostly
> crossposting with other groups, doesn't reveal anything even remotely
> useful, such as lisp code or recommendation for lisp related material
> (books, implementations , libraries). All you seem to do is adding
> your personal which wouldn't completely out of place. This is
> comp.lang.lisp group mostly aimed at common lisp and other lisps who
> doesn't have their separate group. The folks who prefer something else
> should be better served at their favourite language newsgroup. It is
> very normal that when you go watching baseball that people who watch
> baseball enjoy baseball. If you only came there to whine and you would
> rather watch something else why the hell you are wasting your time and
> money and pissing off the crowd with your remarks that somehing else
> is better.
What's all this about something else being better and whingeing? It's
hard to work out what you're on about here or how it applies to this
discussion. The main thing that comes across is that "bad-tempered and
self-defensive" vibe that I earlier claimed was so entertaining.
>
> bobi
Jim
On Feb 9, 9:46 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK Bobi. Mark needs to provide one example because of his undoubted
> lisp credentials. I don't have these credentials, so how many examples
> do I need before my observations have equal force? A rough estimate
> will do.
How about rest of this year (2009) being nice cll denizen than
starting from 2010 you could criticize as much as you want?
bobi
Jim, I'm pretty sure large majority of readers
of this group see you point and agree with you,
and those who do not will, hopefully, seen it later.
But, tell me - what was that thing that has to be
fixed in Lisp? If you do not want publicly, you can
post me sentence or two on kazimir#chem.pmf.hr replace
# you know how. Discretion guaranteed.
If not, no problem.
Thanks
On 9 Feb, 21:23, Majorinc Kazimir <·····@email.address> wrote:
> Jim, I'm pretty sure large majority of readers
> of this group see you point and agree with you,
> and those who do not will, hopefully, seen it later.
>
> But, tell me - what was that thing that has to be
> fixed in Lisp?
Hi, I was just joking, referring to the perennial "I've just had a
great idea! Let's get rid of the parentheses!" types and misplaced the
sarcasm tag :-) For me, lisp (CL and emacs lisp for personal projects,
nothing to write home about) is a pleasure to use and I well remember
the thrill I got discovering it as a Java hack -- coming across SICP
changed the way I thought about programming. In my work (research)
these days I'm using Haskell which I love but if I come back here and
one of these johnny-come-latelys has persuaded you to get rid of those
brackets I'm going to be really pissed off ;-)
> If you do not want publicly, you can
> post me sentence or two on kazimir#chem.pmf.hr replace
> # you know how. Discretion guaranteed.
>
> If not, no problem.
>
> Thanks
On Feb 9, 10:23 pm, Majorinc Kazimir <·····@email.address> wrote:
> Jim, I'm pretty sure large majority of readers
> of this group see you point and agree with you,
> and those who do not will, hopefully, seen it later.
>
> But, tell me - what was that thing that has to be
> fixed in Lisp? If you do not want publicly, you can
> post me sentence or two on kazimir#chem.pmf.hr replace
> # you know how. Discretion guaranteed.
>
> If not, no problem.
>
> Thanks
Btw., you may want to contrast the 'decline of lisp usenet' with
something.
Like the rise/fall/stagnation of usenet in general. The rise/fall/
stagnation of usenet's
programming groups. The rise/fall/stagnation of web forums / mailing
lists - whatever.
My interpretation: most programming newgroups have lost traffic during
the last
two years. comp.lang.lisp is among the high-traffic-newsgroups (as
ranked by Google).
You can also write about the fall of the temperature in garages. There
is
a problem with our garage. Somehow the temperature in our garage
is lower than it used to be. Six months ago it was much warmer
in our garage.
Jim Burton wrote:
> On 9 Feb, 14:54, Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 3:33 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
>>>> On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
>>>>> spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
>>>>> actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
>>>>> and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
>>>>> founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
>>>>> posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
>>>>> put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>>>> Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
>>>> with harshly?
>>>> bobi
>>> An all-time classic:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/...
>>> An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
>>> compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
>>> bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
>>> other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
>>> dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
>> Good, now compare that one behaviour with all the helpful posts Pascal
>> gave to this group.
>
> You asked for one example, I think.
Ya got 'im! But on a technicality. And indeed if that outlier is the
exception, the rule is proved. Or proven. I slept thru that class.
kt
Jim Burton wrote:
>
> Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
>
>> On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
>>> spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
>>> actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
>>> and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
>>> founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
>>> posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
>>> put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>> Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
>> with harshly?
>>
>> bobi
>
> An all-time classic:
> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/88a36fb2c239a44e/4c95766a8bdda347?#4c95766a8bdda347
>
> An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
> compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
> bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars.
And by contrast don't the happy smiling faces warm huggy feely "Welcome
to Lisp!" noob embraces just make you hurl? I try to turn the vitriol to
eleven when I see our little torture chamber turning into Mr. Roger's
Neighborhood.
kenny
On Feb 9, 6:33 am, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> > On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> > Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> > with harshly?
>
> > bobi
>
> An all-time classic:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/...
>
> An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
> compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
> bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
> other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
> dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
What strikes me with that thread was not the very bad mistake of one
of the regulars here, but the swiftness of the retribution toward that
poster when he made that stupid attempt at malicious humor. The whole
thread occurred within a day or two, and the meanness of the post was
pointed out quite a few times during that thread. Also, many helpful
comments were made as well related to the OP's original question. I
saw a lot of jousting in that thread, and I contributed some of that
jousting, but the only actual bad tempers (if you can call it that)
was other regulars telling the one how malicious his post was.
Perhaps you see it differently, but I view that thread as not really
demonstrating the meanness of the c.l.l community as a whole, and in
fact can be taken as quite the opposite.
Duane
·····@franz.com wrote:
> On Feb 9, 6:33 am, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
>>> On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
>>>> spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
>>>> actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
>>>> and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
>>>> founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
>>>> posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
>>>> put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>>> Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
>>> with harshly?
>>> bobi
>> An all-time classic:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/...
>>
>> An extreme example, but I would say as an outsider that what makes cll
>> compelling reading (the longest-running soap on air, in fact) is the
>> bad tempered attitude of many of the regulars. Lovely example the
>> other day which started as a humourous in-joke about trolls and
>> dissolved rapidly into group-wide recriminations.
>
> What strikes me with that thread was not the very bad mistake of one
> of the regulars here, but the swiftness of the retribution toward that
> poster when he made that stupid attempt at malicious humor. The whole
> thread occurred within a day or two, and the meanness of the post was
> pointed out quite a few times during that thread. Also, many helpful
> comments were made as well related to the OP's original question. I
> saw a lot of jousting in that thread, and I contributed some of that
> jousting, but the only actual bad tempers (if you can call it that)
> was other regulars telling the one how malicious his post was.
> Perhaps you see it differently, but I view that thread as not really
> demonstrating the meanness of the c.l.l community as a whole, and in
> fact can be taken as quite the opposite.
>
> Duane
>
And IIRC the offender eventually took the unusual step of conceding he
might have gone a hair over the line. You'll never see me doing that, I
admit.
kenny
On 2009-02-10, Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> And IIRC the offender eventually took the unusual step of conceding he
> might have gone a hair over the line. You'll never see me doing that, I
> admit.
You would, if you had hair.
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2009-02-10, Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And IIRC the offender eventually took the unusual step of conceding he
>> might have gone a hair over the line. You'll never see me doing that, I
>> admit.
>
> You would, if you had hair.
ba-dump-bump. will you be here all week?
kt
ps. Oooh, look, Oz was real: the President got a brain! Talks more than
Clinton, but for a while we are grateful for the reminder of the
contrast with Scarecrow. k
??>> Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
??>> with harshly?
JB> An all-time classic:
JB>
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/88a36fb2c239a44e/4c95766a8bdda347?#4c95766a8bdda347
was it harsh? it was funny! BobF just did not appreciate the joke.
also it was probably quite educational -- maybe BobF, as well as other
readers, will understand
that people at newsgroups do not always provide ready to use solutions
(because they are not payed to do this),
and they should spend at least some effort trying to work with code pieces
themselves.
On 8 Feb, 22:53, Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
>
> Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> with harshly?
>
> bobi
I try to forget examples of humans being unpleasant to each other.
Its part of the optimism filter that I need to get through life
otherwise I'd be overwhelmed by the toxic products of living. So I
don't give the bad stuff on cll disk space. More and more of my time
is spent now in meditation.
But since you asked .....
OK, generally if you approach cll with a limited technical question
that a middling CL hacker would ask (e.g. 'how can I convert a closure
to a list structure'), you're not likely to collect much damage. But
these threads are generally of interest only to the OP. The damage
comes with the longer threads that involve ideas.
Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want to
create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend the
suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is gone
and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
Lets contrast this with how a good university professor should handle
somebody like this. Some 3rd year wanders in to your office and says
he wants to create a language using CL. ** You do not hang the guy
out to dry **. Instead you try to tease out of him what exactly he's
interested in. Does he understand compiler-compiler technology etc?
After a while he starts to have more focus. The thing is you don't
kill a student's enthusiasm. You steer them.
(Actually back in my teaching days I'd have been very grateful for
anybody like Javier. Believe me, the average level of ability and
initiative of the UK CS student is far lower that the average newbie
posting to cll.)
Admitedly a prof is paid for the time, but at least you should avoid
shooting the guy down. Killing someone for not having it together
would kill 50% of most Ph.D. students. A lot of them spend a whole
year knocking around half-baked ideas before they get something
solid.
Other examples? Well some chap who posted his ideas on popularising
Lisp and got told he wasn't qualified to speak on the matter (that
sure showed him).
I can remember other examples but would need to check them out which
is about as much fun as digging out an earth closet. So I'll end
here.
Mark
Mark Tarver wrote:
> On 8 Feb, 22:53, Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Feb 7, 12:14 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
> > > spend that much time on them. But cll is not that nice to newbies
> > > actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
> > > and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp (even if this is well
> > > founded and some of them are) then the response is mixed. I read
> > > posts outside cll where people comment on this. And I've seen newbies
> > > put down in this group in ways that are cruel.
> >
> > Mark please give an example when newbie asked question and was dealt
> > with harshly?
> >
> > bobi
>
> I try to forget examples of humans being unpleasant to each other.
> Its part of the optimism filter that I need to get through life
> otherwise I'd be overwhelmed by the toxic products of living. So I
> don't give the bad stuff on cll disk space. More and more of my time
> is spent now in meditation.
>
> But since you asked .....
>
> OK, generally if you approach cll with a limited technical question
> that a middling CL hacker would ask (e.g. 'how can I convert a closure
> to a list structure'), you're not likely to collect much damage. But
> these threads are generally of interest only to the OP. The damage
> comes with the longer threads that involve ideas.
>
> Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want to
> create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend the
> suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is gone
> and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
>
> Lets contrast this with how a good university professor should handle
> somebody like this. Some 3rd year wanders in to your office and says
> he wants to create a language using CL. ** You do not hang the guy
> out to dry **. Instead you try to tease out of him what exactly he's
> interested in. Does he understand compiler-compiler technology etc?
> After a while he starts to have more focus. The thing is you don't
> kill a student's enthusiasm. You steer them.
>
> (Actually back in my teaching days I'd have been very grateful for
> anybody like Javier. Believe me, the average level of ability and
> initiative of the UK CS student is far lower that the average newbie
> posting to cll.)
>
> Admitedly a prof is paid for the time, but at least you should avoid
> shooting the guy down. Killing someone for not having it together
> would kill 50% of most Ph.D. students. A lot of them spend a whole
> year knocking around half-baked ideas before they get something
> solid.
>
> Other examples? Well some chap who posted his ideas on popularising
> Lisp and got told he wasn't qualified to speak on the matter (that
> sure showed him).
>
> I can remember other examples but would need to check them out which
> is about as much fun as digging out an earth closet. So I'll end
> here.
>
> Mark
Well that's why I want separate newsgroup for common-lisp. I would be
very happy if people post their dialects into comp.lang.lisp and leave
cl newsgroup for discussing cl.
bobi
On Feb 9, 10:45 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want to
> create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend the
> suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is gone
> and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
I think most of the cruelty of Commune-Lispers stems from their
lack of self-esteem. They hate themselves and consequently find
it easy to hate others.
To remedy this, I suggest that they work at bolstering their
sense of self-worth and shedding the negative stereotype with
which they have been saddled.
To that end, all of you repeat this mantra:
"I don't look like a plate of spaghetti and meatballs!"
"I don't look like a plate of spaghetti and meatballs!"
"I don't look like a plate of spaghetti and meatballs!"
"I don't look like a plate of spaghetti and meatballs!"
On Feb 10, 9:52 pm, ·········@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Feb 9, 10:45 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want to
> > create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend the
> > suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is gone
> > and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
>
> I think most of the cruelty of Commune-Lispers stems from their
> lack of self-esteem.
That's because we don't program in Perl!
(Note: this is a Gosling's paraphrase!
http://gavinbierman.blogspot.com/2007/10/oopsla-panel-40-years-of-languages.html
:) )
Cheers
--
Marco
Marco Antoniotti <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> On Feb 10, 9:52 pm, ·········@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 10:45 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want to
>> > create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend the
>> > suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is gone
>> > and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
>>
>> I think most of the cruelty of Commune-Lispers stems from their
>> lack of self-esteem.
>
> That's because we don't program in Perl!
>
> (Note: this is a Gosling's paraphrase!
> http://gavinbierman.blogspot.com/2007/10/oopsla-panel-40-years-of-languages.html
> :) )
Here's a slightly more detailed paraphrase:
http://xach.livejournal.com/142524.html
Zach
On Feb 9, 9:45 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want to
> create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend the
> suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is gone
> and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
>
But Javier is still posting here. The guy did not go away. So
objectively
the discussion did not have the affect that you say it did. You have
me
scratching my head.... (I read the thread you are referring to, there
were
lots of helpful suggestions)
Wade
Wade wrote:
> On Feb 9, 9:45�pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > Lets look at Javier for instance. �The guy comes in saying 'I want
> > to create a language using CL'. �Then the wolves close in and rend
> > the suggestion for its lack of focus. �The guy goes away, morale is
> > gone and with it the impulse to study CL. �Now he hates CL.
> >
>
> But Javier is still posting here. The guy did not go away. So
> objectively
> the discussion did not have the affect that you say it did. You have
> me
> scratching my head....
He is not posting Commune Lisp code.
He is not trying to learn Commune Lisp.
He is deprecating Commune Lisp.
On Feb 11, 2:40 am, "William James" <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wade wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 9:45 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want
> > > to create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend
> > > the suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is
> > > gone and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
>
> > But Javier is still posting here. The guy did not go away. So
> > objectively
> > the discussion did not have the affect that you say it did. You have
> > me
> > scratching my head....
>
> He is not posting Commune Lisp code.
> He is not trying to learn Commune Lisp.
> He is deprecating Commune Lisp.
He has never posted any Lisp Code.
He has never tried to learn Lisp.
Yeah, why is he bothering??
You cannot leave if you have never been there.
Wade
On Feb 11, 1:40 am, "William James" <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wade wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 9:45 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want
> > > to create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend
> > > the suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is
> > > gone and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
>
> > But Javier is still posting here. The guy did not go away. So
> > objectively
> > the discussion did not have the affect that you say it did. You have
> > me
> > scratching my head....
>
> He is not posting Commune Lisp code.
> He is not trying to learn Commune Lisp.
> He is deprecating Commune Lisp.
Dude, you really gotta learn to spell.
Duane
On Feb 11, 10:40 am, "William James" <·········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wade wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 9:45 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Lets look at Javier for instance. The guy comes in saying 'I want
> > > to create a language using CL'. Then the wolves close in and rend
> > > the suggestion for its lack of focus. The guy goes away, morale is
> > > gone and with it the impulse to study CL. Now he hates CL.
>
> > But Javier is still posting here. The guy did not go away. So
> > objectively
> > the discussion did not have the affect that you say it did. You have
> > me
> > scratching my head....
>
> He is not posting Commune Lisp code.
> He is not trying to learn Commune Lisp.
> He is deprecating Commune Lisp.
Apart from the fact that your post is not Ruby code... Where does the
"Commune" come from? I just don't get it. It must be an American/
British/Anglo-Saxon (?) thing.
Cheers
--
Marco
From: Raffael Cavallaro
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmvi3n$j3v$1@aioe.org>
On 2009-02-11 13:20:04 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@gmail.com> said:
> Where does the
> "Commune" come from? I just don't get it. It must be an American/
> British/Anglo-Saxon (?) thing.
In middle class anglo culture, any association with socialism or
communism is an insult; "communist" is usually a pejorative, not a
descriptive term.
Similarly, the word "commune" evokes an era (late 1960s, early 1970s)
when some left leaning people attempted to separate themselves from the
consumer cash economy by forming self sufficient agrarian communities
know as "communes."[1] Such people were often self described "hippies."
As a consequence, among much of the middle class in North America, the
term "hippie" is likewise an insult meaning (variously) unkempt,
unemployed, lazy, socialist, left-leaning, etc.
So "commune lisp" is tantamount to saying "people who use lisp are
dirty socialist hippies."
Coming as you do from Italy where the word "comune" means the rough
equivalent of "town" or "municipality" I can see how this might seem
strange to you...
regards,
Ralph
[1] and for those who know some european history the word "commune"
also evokes the Paris Commune of 1871, when left leaning workers siezed
power after the Franco-Prussian war.
--
Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.
On Feb 11, 11:05 pm, Raffael Cavallaro
<················@pas.espam.s.il.vous.plait.mac.com> wrote:
> On 2009-02-11 13:20:04 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@gmail.com> said:
>
> > Where does the
> > "Commune" come from? I just don't get it. It must be an American/
> > British/Anglo-Saxon (?) thing.
>
> In middle class anglo culture, any association with socialism or
> communism is an insult; "communist" is usually a pejorative, not a
> descriptive term.
>
> Similarly, the word "commune" evokes an era (late 1960s, early 1970s)
> when some left leaning people attempted to separate themselves from the
> consumer cash economy by forming self sufficient agrarian communities
> know as "communes."[1] Such people were often self described "hippies."
> As a consequence, among much of the middle class in North America, the
> term "hippie" is likewise an insult meaning (variously) unkempt,
> unemployed, lazy, socialist, left-leaning, etc.
>
> So "commune lisp" is tantamount to saying "people who use lisp are
> dirty socialist hippies."
>
> Coming as you do from Italy where the word "comune" means the rough
> equivalent of "town" or "municipality" I can see how this might seem
> strange to you...
>
> regards,
> Ralph
>
> [1] and for those who know some european history the word "commune"
> also evokes the Paris Commune of 1871, when left leaning workers siezed
> power after the Franco-Prussian war.
The explanation makes sense... Of course, after the meltdown of the
Financial system maybe we should start calling the language "Wall
Street Lisp". :)
Cheers
--
Marco
From: Raffael Cavallaro
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gn1r6o$gk7$1@aioe.org>
On 2009-02-12 09:45:19 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@gmail.com> said:
> The explanation makes sense... Of course, after the meltdown of the
> Financial system maybe we should start calling the language "Wall
> Street Lisp". :)
or...
for grifters: ConMan Lisp
for the gregarious: ComeIn! Lisp
for Hindus and Buddhists: Karma Lisp
for New Age types: Calmin' Lisp
for the incredulous: ComeOn? Lisp?
for racetrack touts: ComeOn! Lisp!
--
Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.
On Feb 12, 7:53 pm, Raffael Cavallaro
<················@pas.espam.s.il.vous.plait.mac.com> wrote:
> On 2009-02-12 09:45:19 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@gmail.com> said:
>
> > The explanation makes sense... Of course, after the meltdown of the
> > Financial system maybe we should start calling the language "Wall
> > Street Lisp". :)
>
> or...
>
> for grifters: ConMan Lisp
> for the gregarious: ComeIn! Lisp
> for Hindus and Buddhists: Karma Lisp
> for New Age types: Calmin' Lisp
> for the incredulous: ComeOn? Lisp?
> for racetrack touts: ComeOn! Lisp!
>
> --
> Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.
ROTFL
for the Rocky Horror Frank'n'furter's fan: Cooomiing... Lisp.
Cheers
--
Marco
Raffael Cavallaro wrote:
> On 2009-02-12 09:45:19 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@gmail.com> said:
>
>> The explanation makes sense... Of course, after the meltdown of the
>> Financial system maybe we should start calling the language "Wall
>> Street Lisp". :)
>
> or...
>
> for grifters: ConMan Lisp
> for the gregarious: ComeIn! Lisp
> for Hindus and Buddhists: Karma Lisp
> for New Age types: Calmin' Lisp
> for the incredulous: ComeOn? Lisp?
> for racetrack touts: ComeOn! Lisp!
>
>
For Valentine Day: Caramel Lisp!
For Friday 13th: Elms Lisp!
For Christmass: Harrop Lisp! as in Harrop Stole The Christmass Lisp!
MT> Its hard for me to know how cll compares to other groups; I don't
MT> spend that much time on them.
MT> But cll is not that nice to newbies actually.
I have a different opinion -- c.l.l is probably more friendly to newbies
than
average group out there.
MT> But cll is not that nice to newbies
MT> actually. If they ask something naive they can expect to be roasted
I cannot remember any single case when one got "roasted" for some
naive question. Usually people get useful replies even their question is
naive,
and one can get more detailed answer than he could expect, but only if he is
genuinely interested.
If somebody is playing dumb -- that is another thing.
And some people make fun by joking on newbies etc, I think it's their right
to do this on internets.
MT> and if they just volunteer an opinion on Lisp
Typically such opinions are formulated as "you all suck, only i know the
truth",
which is impolite, so it's no wonder they get impolite responses.
MT> In bygone days when I taught students, I used to have to deal with
MT> beginner's questions of all kinds.
It is completely different thing when it is your job.
J> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
J> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
wrong. i think trolls are mainly aiming at normal people who are unaware
of them, as people who sincerely think that someone wants to discuss
some topic, or is wrong and needs to be corrected.. it is easier to make
fun of normal people..
once people become aware of trolls, it gets harder to troll them, and indeed
you might need some fanatics to flame up a discussion.. but arguing
with fanatics is much harder than with unsuspecting people. and as the
ultimate goal of trolling might be to confuse one about the topic or even
make them change their opinion, it is much easier to do with normal people
than with fanatics (it is next to impossible to re-convience fanatic by
definition),
so troll gets less reward when arguing with fanatics.
J> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead.
oh, man, people do not do programming by writing to newsgroups.
you get it wrong, it is vice versa, actually -- people program only when
they do not
read/write messages. so the less we write to cll, the more we write Lisp,
got it?
people discuss most techinical aspects/issues in specific mailing list of
projects,
implementations, etc. subscribe to them and you'll see lotsa meaningful
activity.
J> There is no substance any more.
probably, for you, and it never was.
Alex Mizrahi wrote:
> J> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> J> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
>
> wrong. i think trolls are mainly aiming at normal people who are unaware
> of them,
except on c.l.l where the regulars are fully aware of them and still try
to argue with them: froggy, bellyflopper, kenny.... hang on.
kth
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmi9cr$3je$5@aioe.org>
You are mostly wrong at almost everything:
Alex Mizrahi escribi�:
> J> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> J> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
>
> wrong. i think trolls are mainly aiming at normal people who are unaware
> of them,
No. Normal people do not like to enter flame wars.
> as people who sincerely think that someone wants to discuss
> some topic, or is wrong and needs to be corrected.. it is easier to make
> fun of normal people..
No. The fun for the troll comes with the fact that he is able to
generate eternal threads with thousands of responses. That is his
satisfaction. Trolls doesn't matter if he convinces somebody. He wants
to see people FIGHTING.
> once people become aware of trolls,
Fanatics can't. In fact, fanatics hate but love at the same time the
trolls. They can't resist not feeding them, because contrary opinions
about what they are fanatics is actually the food of their fanaticism.
This is a duality, is the way that it works.
> it gets harder to troll them, and indeed
> you might need some fanatics to flame up a discussion..
yes
> but arguing
> with fanatics is much harder than with unsuspecting people. and as the
> ultimate goal of trolling might be to confuse one about the topic or even
> make them change their opinion,
Not really. Good trolls knows when they must change opinions themselves,
nor they are interested in confusing nobody. They are interested in
separate opinions and make then to start the fight. Then, if he has been
good, the fun begans. Good trolls even retire themselves when the fight
has started and contemplates the spectacle with fun...
> it is much easier to do with normal people
No really. Normal people are not that much interested in flame wars, and
they get tired soon. There is the absolute need of fanatics.
> than with fanatics (it is next to impossible to re-convience fanatic by
> definition),
> so troll gets less reward when arguing with fanatics.
>
> J> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead.
>
> oh, man, people do not do programming by writing to newsgroups.
> you get it wrong, it is vice versa, actually -- people program only when
> they do not
> read/write messages. so the less we write to cll, the more we write Lisp,
> got it?
Perfectly, but the one who doesn't get it is yours.
The Lisp comunity is not that big. Most of the "respected" lispers
actually wastes their time here, in cll, so, as you correctly say, when
they are here, they are not coding... so, who is coding? Not that much
people in fact.
There are people who are not fanatical and uses Lisp. I truly respect
them. But think about the ratio fanatical/normal user. I have the
impress that, for what lisp concerns, it may proably be the highest one
of the computer languages...
> people discuss most techinical aspects/issues in specific mailing list of
> projects,
> implementations, etc. subscribe to them and you'll see lotsa meaningful
> activity.
>
> J> There is no substance any more.
>
> probably, for you, and it never was.
>
>
On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are mostly wrong at almost everything:
>
> Alex Mizrahi escribió:
>> J> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
>> J> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
>>
>> wrong. i think trolls are mainly aiming at normal people who are unaware
>> of them,
>
> No. Normal people do not like to enter flame wars.
I can see from a deeper Google Groups search that you used to be relatively
normal. I didn't find any evidence that someone was rude when you asked for
help. You've received very polite responses to questions from the likes of Kent
Pitman, and Alex Mizrahi above, etc. The discussion was quite normal.
You took the Lisp side in various arguments, citing justifications for things
like prefix syntax with parentheses, or the rationale for the cons cell, etc.
Then one day came this:
[Dec 18, 2007]
J> vanekl ha escrito:
J>
J>
J> > The value NIL is not of type CONS.
J> > [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR]
J>
J>
J> Just one more inconsistence of Common Lisp.
J> The more you discover about these inconsistencies, the more you
J> discover how much CL sucks.
J>
J> If the empty list is NIL, then NIL should be of type CONS. For me,
J> this should be the logical behavior.
Was that you? Is this your example of how you asked for Lisp help, but were
treated rudely?
The above is pure, unadulterated flamebait.
And yet, nobody roasted you on this. One Leandro Rios encouraged you to read
the entire thread again. Pascal Costanza patiently explained that a LIST is
subtyped into CONS and NIL. Geoff Wozniak made a similar reply.
Why don't you try marching into comp.lang.<whatever> with a posting about how
the more you learn about <whatever>, the more you find that <whatever> sucks?
In the same thread, even /I/ was civil to you, and took the time to make a
detailed reply about the NIL object and NIL type.
[You, apparently, Dec 18, 2007]
J> My opinion is that NIL may behave confusing in some cases. The case
J> that the empty list and NIL are the same, is one of them. The case
J> that NIL is a subtype of everything, too. One might understand that T
J> is a subtype of everything, but can't understand why the NIL type is.
J> Even more, can't understand why NIL type is needed at all, if there is
J> no instance of it, not even the value NIL (which is not of type
J> NIL!!!). I repeat: there might be some obscure reasons, and I think a
J> lot of CL programmers do not understand why (this thread is an
J> example). Non-CL programmers will be, of course, much more confused.
[Me, Dec 18, 2007]
K> You need a type which is the subtype of everything in order to
K> properly close the bottom end of the type spindle.
K>
K> If you are implementing algorithms which do various things with types,
K> like sorting a type lattice or whatever, it may be very useful to have
K> a value which is the subtype of everything.
K>
K> The second question is, what two symbols to use for naming types at
K> these two opposite ends of the spindle? The subtype of everything and
K> the supertype of everything? Using NIL and T is neat. If not NIL and
K> T, then you need some other symbols. It's a lot easier to remember one
K> convention everywhere: that when two special symbols are needed, NIL
K> and T are used.
K> [ ... etc ]
So as you can see, it is you who started sliding into troll territory first,
and yet in spite of that, people continued to be patient and civil.
And this happened after you were no longer such a CL newbie; i.e. you are
completely lying when you say that you didn't know Lisp very well and were
treated badly when you had newbie questions about Lisp!
You may be undergoing some sort of personality transformation, who knows. Or
maybe this is how you act when your excitement in learning something new fades
away. You have a need to turn around and bash that thing and and try to make
enemies out of everyone else who continues to like it. Afterword, your brain
can manufacture a reason explaining why you never liked that thing all along,
and you can maintain a self-image that you are consistent.
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmidcs$dvh$1@aioe.org>
Now that you are examining my messagges, and seems to be interested in
my mind, what is the reason to put that things here? Because you want to
selectively choose one or other messages in order to harm me.
Your strategy is to try to find a weak point.
I'm not interested in that. The original topic was: Trolls and
fanaticals in cll.
I consider you a fanatical. You consider me a Troll. But both things are
not going to change the fact of cll.
You haven't still responded to a question: have you ever, in this 9
years, made a relevant piece of software in CL?
Kaz Kylheku escribió:
> On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You are mostly wrong at almost everything:
>>
>> Alex Mizrahi escribió:
>>> J> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
>>> J> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
>>>
>>> wrong. i think trolls are mainly aiming at normal people who are unaware
>>> of them,
>> No. Normal people do not like to enter flame wars.
>
> I can see from a deeper Google Groups search that you used to be relatively
> normal. I didn't find any evidence that someone was rude when you asked for
> help. You've received very polite responses to questions from the likes of Kent
> Pitman, and Alex Mizrahi above, etc. The discussion was quite normal.
>
> You took the Lisp side in various arguments, citing justifications for things
> like prefix syntax with parentheses, or the rationale for the cons cell, etc.
>
> Then one day came this:
>
> [Dec 18, 2007]
> J> vanekl ha escrito:
> J>
> J>
> J> > The value NIL is not of type CONS.
> J> > [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR]
> J>
> J>
> J> Just one more inconsistence of Common Lisp.
> J> The more you discover about these inconsistencies, the more you
> J> discover how much CL sucks.
> J>
> J> If the empty list is NIL, then NIL should be of type CONS. For me,
> J> this should be the logical behavior.
>
> Was that you? Is this your example of how you asked for Lisp help, but were
> treated rudely?
>
> The above is pure, unadulterated flamebait.
>
> And yet, nobody roasted you on this. One Leandro Rios encouraged you to read
> the entire thread again. Pascal Costanza patiently explained that a LIST is
> subtyped into CONS and NIL. Geoff Wozniak made a similar reply.
>
> Why don't you try marching into comp.lang.<whatever> with a posting about how
> the more you learn about <whatever>, the more you find that <whatever> sucks?
>
> In the same thread, even /I/ was civil to you, and took the time to make a
> detailed reply about the NIL object and NIL type.
>
> [You, apparently, Dec 18, 2007]
> J> My opinion is that NIL may behave confusing in some cases. The case
> J> that the empty list and NIL are the same, is one of them. The case
> J> that NIL is a subtype of everything, too. One might understand that T
> J> is a subtype of everything, but can't understand why the NIL type is.
> J> Even more, can't understand why NIL type is needed at all, if there is
> J> no instance of it, not even the value NIL (which is not of type
> J> NIL!!!). I repeat: there might be some obscure reasons, and I think a
> J> lot of CL programmers do not understand why (this thread is an
> J> example). Non-CL programmers will be, of course, much more confused.
>
> [Me, Dec 18, 2007]
> K> You need a type which is the subtype of everything in order to
> K> properly close the bottom end of the type spindle.
> K>
> K> If you are implementing algorithms which do various things with types,
> K> like sorting a type lattice or whatever, it may be very useful to have
> K> a value which is the subtype of everything.
> K>
> K> The second question is, what two symbols to use for naming types at
> K> these two opposite ends of the spindle? The subtype of everything and
> K> the supertype of everything? Using NIL and T is neat. If not NIL and
> K> T, then you need some other symbols. It's a lot easier to remember one
> K> convention everywhere: that when two special symbols are needed, NIL
> K> and T are used.
> K> [ ... etc ]
>
> So as you can see, it is you who started sliding into troll territory first,
> and yet in spite of that, people continued to be patient and civil.
>
> And this happened after you were no longer such a CL newbie; i.e. you are
> completely lying when you say that you didn't know Lisp very well and were
> treated badly when you had newbie questions about Lisp!
>
> You may be undergoing some sort of personality transformation, who knows. Or
> maybe this is how you act when your excitement in learning something new fades
> away. You have a need to turn around and bash that thing and and try to make
> enemies out of everyone else who continues to like it. Afterword, your brain
> can manufacture a reason explaining why you never liked that thing all along,
> and you can maintain a self-image that you are consistent.
Yo must see my messages in cll as an evolution. If you want to read all
of them you'll note that my main frustration was about cll. Not all of
cll, but the ones like you and kt, and others. This ultimately
translated in a frustration to Lisp itself, and in an attitude against
what I consider fanatics.
If I ever went out of here was not because I was "destroing myself" as
you state. It is because that I realise that you're probably not going
to change for better for a while. The lack of a spanish cumunity which
speaks my language (and with that lots of confusions and
misunderstandings would disappear) also helps that feeling.
On 6 Feb., 23:25, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now that you are examining my messagges, and seems to be interested in
> my mind, what is the reason to put that things here? Because you want to
> selectively choose one or other messages in order to harm me.
> Your strategy is to try to find a weak point.
>
> I'm not interested in that. The original topic was: Trolls and
> fanaticals in cll.
> I consider you a fanatical. You consider me a Troll. But both things are
> not going to change the fact of cll.
>
> You haven't still responded to a question: have you ever, in this 9
> years, made a relevant piece of software in CL?
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Von: Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com>
Datum: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:58:05 +0000 (UTC)
Lokal: Fr 6 Feb. 2009 22:58
Betreff: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
...
> Have you done any relevant thing in CL anyway, or just dedicate all
your
> lisp efforts in responding to trolls like a fanatic here and there
in
> lisp forums?
I released two open source Lisp programs, and rewrote a subsystem in
one
popular Lisp implementation. I've done some non-CL Lisp work too; at
my
previous employment I developed a Lisp-like C++ object library which
sprouded
an interpreter, that ended up being used for running stress tests on
cellular
phone devices.
How about you?
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmifa5$dvh$3@aioe.org>
······@corporate-world.lisp.de escribi�:
> On 6 Feb., 23:25, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Now that you are examining my messagges, and seems to be interested in
>> my mind, what is the reason to put that things here? Because you want to
>> selectively choose one or other messages in order to harm me.
>> Your strategy is to try to find a weak point.
>>
>> I'm not interested in that. The original topic was: Trolls and
>> fanaticals in cll.
>> I consider you a fanatical. You consider me a Troll. But both things are
>> not going to change the fact of cll.
>>
>> You haven't still responded to a question: have you ever, in this 9
>> years, made a relevant piece of software in CL?
>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
> Von: Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com>
> Datum: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:58:05 +0000 (UTC)
> Lokal: Fr 6 Feb. 2009 22:58
> Betreff: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
>
> ...
>
> > Have you done any relevant thing in CL anyway, or just dedicate all
> your
> > lisp efforts in responding to trolls like a fanatic here and there
> in
> > lisp forums?
>
>
> I released two open source Lisp programs,
What programs?
> and rewrote a subsystem in
> one
> popular Lisp implementation.
What implementation and what subsystem?
> I've done some non-CL Lisp work too; at
> my
> previous employment I developed a Lisp-like C++ object library which
> sprouded
> an interpreter, that ended up being used for running stress tests on
> cellular
> phone devices.
>
>
> How about you?
>
It is not relevant. I'm not a fanatic nor I consider myself a lisper.
On 6 Feb., 23:58, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> ······@corporate-world.lisp.de escribió:
>
>
>
> > On 6 Feb., 23:25, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Now that you are examining my messagges, and seems to be interested in
> >> my mind, what is the reason to put that things here? Because you want to
> >> selectively choose one or other messages in order to harm me.
> >> Your strategy is to try to find a weak point.
>
> >> I'm not interested in that. The original topic was: Trolls and
> >> fanaticals in cll.
> >> I consider you a fanatical. You consider me a Troll. But both things are
> >> not going to change the fact of cll.
>
> >> You haven't still responded to a question: have you ever, in this 9
> >> years, made a relevant piece of software in CL?
>
> > Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
> > Von: Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com>
> > Datum: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:58:05 +0000 (UTC)
> > Lokal: Fr 6 Feb. 2009 22:58
> > Betreff: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
>
> > ...
>
> > > Have you done any relevant thing in CL anyway, or just dedicate all
> > your
> > > lisp efforts in responding to trolls like a fanatic here and there
> > in
> > > lisp forums?
>
> > I released two open source Lisp programs,
>
> What programs?
>
> > and rewrote a subsystem in
> > one
> > popular Lisp implementation.
>
> What implementation and what subsystem?
>
> > I've done some non-CL Lisp work too; at
> > my
> > previous employment I developed a Lisp-like C++ object library which
> > sprouded
> > an interpreter, that ended up being used for running stress tests on
> > cellular
> > phone devices.
>
> > How about you?
>
> It is not relevant. I'm not a fanatic nor I consider myself a lisper.
So you complain here without doing anything relevant with Lisp? Why?
On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I released two open source Lisp programs,
>
> What programs?
This conversation is over. I am not going to be discussing /me/ with /you/.
Nor with anyone resembling the likes of you. If you want to know something,
there is Google. You know how to use it.
>> How about you?
>>
>
> It is not relevant.
If it's not relevant to discuss /you/, it's not relevant to discuss /me/.
> I'm not a fanatic nor I consider myself a lisper.
Similarly, I don't consider myself a ``Fortraner''.
And that is the main reason why I don't post to comp.lang.fortran.
Do you catch the drift?
Anyway, my work here is done. *plonk*
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmih01$dvh$5@aioe.org>
Kaz Kylheku escribi�:
> On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I released two open source Lisp programs,
>> What programs?
>
> This conversation is over. I am not going to be discussing /me/ with /you/.
> Nor with anyone resembling the likes of you. If you want to know something,
> there is Google. You know how to use it.
>
>>> How about you?
>>>
>> It is not relevant.
>
> If it's not relevant to discuss /you/, it's not relevant to discuss /me/.
>
>> I'm not a fanatic nor I consider myself a lisper.
>
> Similarly, I don't consider myself a ``Fortraner''.
>
> And that is the main reason why I don't post to comp.lang.fortran.
>
> Do you catch the drift?
>
> Anyway, my work here is done. *plonk*
Do you see?
Most people here are just like you, fanaticals that do not actually
write nothing relevant but wastes their time in the forums defending
their "religion".
You got nervous when the truth about your fanaticism has finally revealed.
On 7 Feb., 00:27, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku escribió:
>
>
>
> > On 2009-02-06, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I released two open source Lisp programs,
> >> What programs?
>
> > This conversation is over. I am not going to be discussing /me/ with /you/.
> > Nor with anyone resembling the likes of you. If you want to know something,
> > there is Google. You know how to use it.
>
> >>> How about you?
>
> >> It is not relevant.
>
> > If it's not relevant to discuss /you/, it's not relevant to discuss /me/.
>
> >> I'm not a fanatic nor I consider myself a lisper.
>
> > Similarly, I don't consider myself a ``Fortraner''.
>
> > And that is the main reason why I don't post to comp.lang.fortran.
>
> > Do you catch the drift?
>
> > Anyway, my work here is done. *plonk*
>
> Do you see?
> Most people here are just like you, fanaticals that do not actually
> write nothing relevant but wastes their time in the forums defending
> their "religion".
>
> You got nervous when the truth about your fanaticism has finally revealed.
You waste your time in a forum where you are not even interested in
the topic.
Then you tell others that they are fanatics.
How strange.
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmiik8$dvh$7@aioe.org>
······@corporate-world.lisp.de escribi�:
>> You got nervous when the truth about your fanaticism has finally revealed.
>
> You waste your time in a forum where you are not even interested in
> the topic.
> Then you tell others that they are fanatics.
>
> How strange.
No, it is not strange. It is stupid.
Yes, even being massacred like I have been from people like you, I still
persevere in entering here.
Others simply do not return any more at the first insult/attack.
But it is ok. I'm probably not going to return in several years, at
least until you the hostile go away from here.
And I'm not talking about Costanza, Pitman, and others. They have been
very polite and helpful.
Bye.
On 7 Feb., 00:55, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> ······@corporate-world.lisp.de escribió:
>
> >> You got nervous when the truth about your fanaticism has finally revealed.
>
> > You waste your time in a forum where you are not even interested in
> > the topic.
> > Then you tell others that they are fanatics.
>
> > How strange.
>
> No, it is not strange. It is stupid.
Even that.
> Yes, even being massacred like I have been from people like you, I still
> persevere in entering here.
You have entered here with nothing but complaining and whining.
Check your last postings before this thread.
> Others simply do not return any more at the first insult/attack.
>
> But it is ok. I'm probably not going to return in several years, at
> least until you the hostile go away from here.
You have contributed FUD. Come back if
Lisp interests you and you have anything on-topic to
contribute. Otherwise stay away. It is no loss, I have to say.
> And I'm not talking about Costanza, Pitman, and others. They have been
> very polite and helpful.
>
> Bye.
Bye.
??>> wrong. i think trolls are mainly aiming at normal people who are
??>> unaware of them,
J> No. Normal people do not like to enter flame wars.
it is obviously wrong. there are lots of cases when normal people are
trolled.
some of them are listed in wikipedia article on trolling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
"The most likely derivation of the word troll can be found in the phrase
"trolling for newbies."
...For example, a veteran of the group might make a post on the common
misconception that glass flows over time. Long-time readers would both
recognize the poster's name and know that the topic had been done to death
already, but new subscribers to the group would not realise, and would thus
respond. "
J> No. The fun for the troll comes with the fact that he is able to
J> generate eternal threads with thousands of responses.
maybe that is what you're making fun of, but you're such a low quality
troll..
J> Most of the "respected" lispers
J> actually wastes their time here, in cll, so, as you correctly say, when
J> they are here, they are not coding... so, who is coding?
your argument is flawed and totally idiotic -- if you know about lisp
community from c.l.l,
how do you know what happens outside the community?
On 6 Feb., 17:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> activity in cll.
>
> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> Have a nice day!
I couldn't disagree more.
First you are seeking out for help about lisp and then you are
lamenting about trolls and fanatics?
Lisp is dead? ... I started my interest in Lisp because of its active
user base. Rich culture. Local interest groups, Conferences are being
held regularly. And to give you some hints what really matters in
software development in the future, google for recent studies about
future trends in IT. Then you will find out that semantic technologies
are key to our IT landscape in the next 10-20 years. Lisp is well
prepared due to its AI heritage to support these trends.
From: Alexander Lehmann
Subject: Re: Trolls and fanaticals in cll
Date:
Message-ID: <gmjpcd$6hr$1@online.de>
·················@googlemail.com wrote:
> Lisp is dead? ... I started my interest in Lisp because of its active
> user base. Rich culture. Local interest groups, Conferences are being
> held regularly. And to give you some hints what really matters in
> software development in the future, google for recent studies about
> future trends in IT. Then you will find out that semantic technologies
> are key to our IT landscape in the next 10-20 years. Lisp is well
> prepared due to its AI heritage to support these trends.
1+
On 6 Feb, 17:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> (I'm so down...)
Hey you, where are you living?
Is there no such thing like mountains, the sea, etc. near you?
What if you would have spent the malcontent noise here with some soul
nutrient things? (Or even coffee, tiramisù, etc.?)
I don't get it.
I never behave like you when I'm simply down.
That's what you are.
I have news for you:
Life Is Beautiful!
(Please discover!)
:)
On Feb 7, 8:34 pm, ········@gmail.com wrote:
> On 6 Feb, 17:23, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > (I'm so down...)
>
> Hey you, where are you living?
> Is there no such thing like mountains, the sea, etc. near you?
> What if you would have spent the malcontent noise here with some soul
> nutrient things? (Or even coffee, tiramisù, etc.?)
>
> I don't get it.
> I never behave like you when I'm simply down.
> That's what you are.
>
> I have news for you:
> Life Is Beautiful!
> (Please discover!)
>
> :)
Or even Life IS Pleasant!
Cheers,
Jurgen
Javier wrote:
> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> activity in cll.
>
> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> Have a nice day!
Looks like someone doesn't have much of a life...
Happy trolling!
Chaitanya
Javier wrote:
> As any duality, there are not trolls when there are not fanaticals, and
> there are not fanaticals when there are not trolls.
> When trolls are not attacking, fanaticals are bored and awaiting for an
> opportunity to express their fanatics, and almost no activity in cll.
> When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> activity in cll.
>
> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
>
> Have a nice day!
I love the bitter-sweet taste of comp.lang.lisp!
Lisp ain't dead... What's HTML anyway?
Javier escreveu:
> When there are not fanatical fighting against trolls, there is almost no
> activity in cll.
>
> Which brings us the truth: Lisp is almost dead. There is only space for
> controversial and fighting. There is no substance any more. A perfect
> subject for the duality fanatical/troll.
You nailed it. But come on! Not everyone of us use newsgroups in
search of help or knowledge. To me, it's like a happy hour while still
at work. ;)
The only reason cll is "dying", Javier, is because of people like you,
Xah, froggy and the Ruby guy. In a moderated forum you'd all be banned
and you know it.