Hi!
I want to know of your employment, as Lisp programmers.
I want to know, which problems you have happened to solve with Lisp,
either in your personal practice or at work. For me it is interesting
to know, what in the world can be solved with Lisp today, because i'm
finishing my third book on the subject (Abelson & Sussmans' "SICP",
first two were P. Norvig's "Paradigms of AI programming..." and
"Gentle Introduction to symbolic computations"), and it seems, that
time is to get some practice.
So I want to know, what kind of project I can take as example of good
Lisp application, or at least - which field of problems this
application can be from.
If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
enterprise business applications that form the collections of
masterpieces of programming art, I think))
BubbaFrench wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I want to know of your employment, as Lisp programmers.
We are not in it for the money. Thank god.
> I want to know, which problems you have happened to solve with Lisp,
> either in your personal practice or at work.
I've known you for five minutes and I am supposed to write a book for
you? Where is Kent's quote on what Lisp can be used for?
> For me it is interesting
> to know, what in the world can be solved with Lisp today, ...
The answer aligns nicely with what can be solved by computer programming.
>...because i'm
> finishing my third book on the subject (Abelson & Sussmans' "SICP",
> first two were P. Norvig's "Paradigms of AI programming..." and
> "Gentle Introduction to symbolic computations"), and it seems, that
> time is to get some practice.
That time was after about the third capture of the first book.
>
> So I want to know, what kind of project I can take as example of good
> Lisp application, or at least - which field of problems this
> application can be from.
Go back two answers. Maybe three. Skip this answer next time, for
obvious reasons.
>
> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
No porn? All the money is in porn.
hth, kenny
On 6 ÁÐÒ, 19:11, Kenneth Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> BubbaFrench wrote:
> > Hi!
>
> > I want to know of your employment, as Lisp programmers.
>
> We are not in it for the money. Thank god.
>
> > I want to know, which problems you have happened to solve with Lisp,
> > either in your personal practice or at work.
>
> I've known you for five minutes and I am supposed to write a book for
> you? Where is Kent's quote on what Lisp can be used for?
I want nothing of you, but a little boasting:))
>
> > For me it is interesting
> > to know, what in the world can be solved with Lisp today, ...
>
> The answer aligns nicely with what can be solved by computer programming.
Things are getting clear)
>
> >...because i'm
> > finishing my third book on the subject (Abelson & Sussmans' "SICP",
> > first two were P. Norvig's "Paradigms of AI programming..." and
> > "Gentle Introduction to symbolic computations"), and it seems, that
> > time is to get some practice.
>
> That time was after about the third capture of the first book.
Of course I had some practice, but never wrote a complete (big)
project.
>
>
>
> > So I want to know, what kind of project I can take as example of good
> > Lisp application, or at least - which field of problems this
> > application can be from.
>
> Go back two answers. Maybe three. Skip this answer next time, for
> obvious reasons.
Eh, ?
>
>
>
> > If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
> > projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
> > enterprise business applications that form the collections of
> > masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>
> No porn? All the money is in porn.
Porn is boring, really :-)
>
> hth, kenny
BubbaFrench <···········@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi!
>
> I want to know of your employment, as Lisp programmers.
> I want to know, which problems you have happened to solve with Lisp,
> either in your personal practice or at work.
My hobby Lisp project is http://wigflip.com/ . I have some libraries
that can draw text and other graphics, and I use them to help people
make goofy graphics online.
Example output (old news to ILC 2009 attendees):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/3384828959/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/3385670818/
It's all for fun, but it did generate enough revenue to pay for my Lisp
conference trip...
Zach
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
knowledge.
Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
decision problem.
If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
Tamas
On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
> > If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
> > projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
> > enterprise business applications that form the collections of
> > masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>
> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>
> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
> knowledge.
>
> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
> decision problem.
>
> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>
> Tamas
The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
I've met many AI applications in Lisp, heard about it's use as
scripting language, some military stuff - just want to add something
to that list, not AI only.
And you're not completely right - telling me about your success in
particular (serious) field will really help me, cause I will know of
what computers are capable of (with help of Lisp) in general.
Thank you)
BubbaFrench wrote:
> On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
>>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
>>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
>>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
>>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
>> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
>> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
>> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>>
>> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
>> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
>> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
>> knowledge.
>>
>> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
>> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
>> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
>> decision problem.
>>
>> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
>> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>>
>> Tamas
>
> The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
> enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
> is good for that.
This is going to be tougher than I thought. You are supposed to be here
because you are convinced there must be a better way than the train
wreck of language design that is Java.
But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
> with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
> new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
>
> I've met many AI applications in Lisp, heard about it's use as
> scripting language, some military stuff - just want to add something
> to that list, not AI only.
Your problem is not a list of applications. Your problem is what you
know and have not done. You know Java rocks, you have not programmed
Lisp in anger.
The solution writes itself: go program in Lisp until you hate Java.
hth,kenny
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
BubbaFrench <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
What do you mean with "nothing at all"? Remember, Lisp won't allow your
computer to run twice as fast, solve NP-complete problems in
subpolynomial time or make the computer float in midair.
> I've met many AI applications in Lisp, heard about it's use as
> scripting language, some military stuff - just want to add something
> to that list, not AI only.
You can do basically anything with Lisp that you can do with other
programming languages as well. That Lisp was used in AI does not
neccessarily mean that AI can't use anything else. OTOH, I wrote a
program to process text files in Lisp, can I now claim that Lisp is big
in text-processing? It can be used, sure, but then I could use it for
any other task just as well.
> And you're not completely right - telling me about your success in
> particular (serious) field will really help me, cause I will know of
> what computers are capable of (with help of Lisp) in general.
Computers are able to do the same things as Turing machines,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine> with or without Lisp.
Ok, so let me see what can be done with Lisp:
- process said text files
- write simple guessing games
- write more complex games for two players
- fill up your memory because of infinite recursive calls
- simulate the Haskell function semantics using macros
Oh, I think that was all ;)
regards,
Marek
>> ...or make the computer float in midair.
Well, I did expect something like that. D'oh!
You know, when I look at Prolog application running, it's hard to
relate it to any kind of machine, subject to imperative manipulations.
I mean, potential of computer grows, really, when you use "magic wand
instead of nut driver". And I just want to look from that perspective.
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
BubbaFrench <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> You know, when I look at Prolog application running, it's hard to
> relate it to any kind of machine, subject to imperative manipulations.
> I mean, potential of computer grows, really, when you use "magic wand
> instead of nut driver". And I just want to look from that perspective.
SICP has clearly spoiled you forever :) Although I suspect that the
magic in SICP comes from clever implementation and algorithms so that
everything seems to be easy.
regards,
Marek
On Apr 6, 1:00 pm, BubbaFrench <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> ...or make the computer float in midair.
>
> Well, I did expect something like that. D'oh!
>
> You know, when I look at Prolog application running, it's hard to
> relate it to any kind of machine, subject to imperative manipulations.
> I mean, potential of computer grows, really, when you use "magic wand
> instead of nut driver". And I just want to look from that perspective.
You might enjoy the last few chapters of Paul Graham's _On Lisp_. It
describes how to add new big-concept features on top of Lisp, using
(in part) the macro facilities. Examples include continuations and a
Prolog implementation.
Marek Kubica <·····@xivilization.net> wrote:
+---------------
| Ok, so let me see what can be done with Lisp:
| - process said text files
| - write simple guessing games
| - write more complex games for two players
| - fill up your memory because of infinite recursive calls
| - simulate the Haskell function semantics using macros
|
| Oh, I think that was all ;)
+---------------
As Kent Pitman famously said:
Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics,
AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor
applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge
Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language,
Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web
Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list.
;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
On 7 ÁÐÒ, 03:55, ····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
> As Kent Pitman famously said:
>
> Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics,
> AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor
> applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge
> Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language,
> Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web
> Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list.
Is that qutation going to live forever and pursue me, whenever I want
to ask a question? :))
BubbaFrench <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
+---------------
| ····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
| > As Kent Pitman famously said:
| > Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics,
| > AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor
| > applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge
| > Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language,
| > Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web
| > Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list.
|
| Is that qutation going to live forever and pursue me, whenever I want
| to ask a question? :))
+---------------
Only if your question is "What is Lisp good for?"... ;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:55:12 -0500
····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
> Marek Kubica <·····@xivilization.net> wrote:
> +---------------
> | Ok, so let me see what can be done with Lisp:
> | - process said text files
> | - write simple guessing games
> | - write more complex games for two players
> | - fill up your memory because of infinite recursive calls
> | - simulate the Haskell function semantics using macros
> |
> | Oh, I think that was all ;)
> +---------------
>
> As Kent Pitman famously said:
Oh, yes, I was looking exactly for that quote. Thanks for re-posting
it, it is funny everytime I read it :)
regards,
Marek
BubbaFrench schrieb:
> On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
>>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
>>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
>>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
>>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
>> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
>> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
>> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>>
>> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
>> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
>> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
>> knowledge.
>>
>> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
>> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
>> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
>> decision problem.
>>
>> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
>> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>>
>> Tamas
>
> The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
> enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
> is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
> with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
> new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
If you already know Java then why don't you simply try Clojure?
You can recycle your knowledge of APIs and tools and get Lisp inside a
JVM. Maybe you can even convince your project manager that you can write
some of your companies code in Clojure.
But even if you just want it for your hobby projects have a look.
http://clojure.org/
André
--
Lisp is not dead. It’s just the URL that has changed:
http://clojure.org/
On Apr 9, 1:37 am, André Thieme <address.good.until.
···········@justmail.de> wrote:
> BubbaFrench schrieb:
>
>
>
> > On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
> >>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
> >>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
> >>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
> >>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
> >> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
> >> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
> >> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
> >> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>
> >> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
> >> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
> >> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
> >> knowledge.
>
> >> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
> >> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
> >> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
> >> decision problem.
>
> >> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
> >> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>
> >> Tamas
>
> > The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
> > enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
> > is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
> > with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
> > new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
> > how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
> > to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
> > mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
>
> If you already know Java then why don't you simply try Clojure?
> You can recycle your knowledge of APIs and tools and get Lisp inside a
> JVM. Maybe you can even convince your project manager that you can write
> some of your companies code in Clojure.
> But even if you just want it for your hobby projects have a look.http://clojure.org/
>
Or ABCL....
Cheers
--
Marco
Marco Antoniotti wrote:
> On Apr 9, 1:37 am, André Thieme <address.good.until.
> ···········@justmail.de> wrote:
>> BubbaFrench schrieb:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
>>>>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
>>>>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
>>>>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
>>>>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>>>> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
>>>> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
>>>> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
>>>> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>>>> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
>>>> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
>>>> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
>>>> knowledge.
>>>> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
>>>> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
>>>> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
>>>> decision problem.
>>>> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
>>>> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>>>> Tamas
>>> The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
>>> enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
>>> is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
>>> with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
>>> new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
>>> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
>>> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
>>> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
>> If you already know Java then why don't you simply try Clojure?
>> You can recycle your knowledge of APIs and tools and get Lisp inside a
>> JVM. Maybe you can even convince your project manager that you can write
>> some of your companies code in Clojure.
>> But even if you just want it for your hobby projects have a look.http://clojure.org/
>>
>
> Or ABCL....
...or SISC or Kawa or JScheme or Stella or ...
Pascal
--
ELS'09: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
Pascal Costanza schrieb:
> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>> On Apr 9, 1:37 am, André Thieme <address.good.until.
>> ···········@justmail.de> wrote:
>>> BubbaFrench schrieb:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
>>>>>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
>>>>>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
>>>>>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
>>>>>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>>>>> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
>>>>> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
>>>>> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
>>>>> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>>>>> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
>>>>> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
>>>>> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
>>>>> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
>>>>> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
>>>>> decision problem.
>>>>> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
>>>>> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>>>>> Tamas
>>>> The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
>>>> enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
>>>> is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
>>>> with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
>>>> new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
>>>> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
>>>> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
>>>> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
>>> If you already know Java then why don't you simply try Clojure?
>>> You can recycle your knowledge of APIs and tools and get Lisp inside a
>>> JVM. Maybe you can even convince your project manager that you can write
>>> some of your companies code in Clojure.
>>> But even if you just want it for your hobby projects have a
>>> look.http://clojure.org/
>>>
>>
>> Or ABCL....
>
> ...or SISC or Kawa or JScheme or Stella or ...
>
Did you try them all out (extensively)? They all seem fine for hobby
projects, but I doubt that they are as nice to use as Clojure.
The reason for that is that very much and recent work flows into
Clojure.
Clojure offers a lot of work being done by others. It learned from CL
and Scheme and other languages and incorporated a lot of good stuff from
them. Every day 10-200 man hours of work are put into freely available
Clojure libs and tools. The other environments do not come close, even
when they are taken together.
Also Clojure offers tools to easily develop concurrent-ready applications.
Of course, those tools are available for all languages that run on the
JVM. But it's still the question how natural they are to use from other
languages. And if someone makes constantly use of those features, then
she could as well use the original.
ABCL was recently updated, but it seems that not 10 people spent
basically all their freetime to work on it (although I would find it
certainly very nice to have a very advanced CL compiler targetting the
JVM). On its front page it has big warnings about bugs and talks about
how slow it runs.
Kawas svn was also recently updated, but its official version seems to
be over two years old. Also I see no signs of a STM and other extensions.
SISCs latest version is over two years old.
JSchemes manual says that it is still in preparation. Since April 2002.
It seems these Lisps have a combined number of users which is about the
same that Clojure gets every week.
So, BubbaFrench, I suggest you to try those different Lisps out, and see
for yourself what you like most, and what makes you most productive.
André
--
Lisp is not dead. It’s just the URL that has changed:
http://clojure.org/
André Thieme wrote:
> Pascal Costanza schrieb:
>> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>>> On Apr 9, 1:37 am, André Thieme <address.good.until.
>>> ···········@justmail.de> wrote:
>>>> BubbaFrench schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
>>>>>>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
>>>>>>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
>>>>>>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
>>>>>>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>>>>>> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
>>>>>> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
>>>>>> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
>>>>>> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>>>>>> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
>>>>>> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
>>>>>> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
>>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>>> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
>>>>>> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
>>>>>> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
>>>>>> decision problem.
>>>>>> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
>>>>>> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>>>>>> Tamas
>>>>> The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
>>>>> enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
>>>>> is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
>>>>> with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
>>>>> new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
>>>>> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
>>>>> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
>>>>> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
>>>> If you already know Java then why don't you simply try Clojure?
>>>> You can recycle your knowledge of APIs and tools and get Lisp inside a
>>>> JVM. Maybe you can even convince your project manager that you can
>>>> write
>>>> some of your companies code in Clojure.
>>>> But even if you just want it for your hobby projects have a
>>>> look.http://clojure.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or ABCL....
>>
>> ...or SISC or Kawa or JScheme or Stella or ...
>>
>
> Did you try them all out (extensively)? They all seem fine for hobby
> projects, but I doubt that they are as nice to use as Clojure.
> The reason for that is that very much and recent work flows into
> Clojure.
> Clojure offers a lot of work being done by others. It learned from CL
> and Scheme and other languages and incorporated a lot of good stuff from
> them. Every day 10-200 man hours of work are put into freely available
> Clojure libs and tools. The other environments do not come close, even
> when they are taken together.
> Also Clojure offers tools to easily develop concurrent-ready applications.
> Of course, those tools are available for all languages that run on the
> JVM. But it's still the question how natural they are to use from other
> languages. And if someone makes constantly use of those features, then
> she could as well use the original.
> ABCL was recently updated, but it seems that not 10 people spent
> basically all their freetime to work on it (although I would find it
> certainly very nice to have a very advanced CL compiler targetting the
> JVM). On its front page it has big warnings about bugs and talks about
> how slow it runs.
> Kawas svn was also recently updated, but its official version seems to
> be over two years old. Also I see no signs of a STM and other extensions.
> SISCs latest version is over two years old.
> JSchemes manual says that it is still in preparation. Since April 2002.
>
> It seems these Lisps have a combined number of users which is about the
> same that Clojure gets every week.
>
> So, BubbaFrench, I suggest you to try those different Lisps out, and see
> for yourself what you like most, and what makes you most productive.
>
>
> André
Please take this OT Java crap to a Java NG.
thx, kt
On 2009-04-09, André Thieme <······························@justmail.de> wrote:
> them. Every day 10-200 man hours of work are put into freely available
> Clojure libs and tools.
Do you want to be relying on something that requires a daily investment of up
to 200 man-hours of some combination of new coding and debugging?
Nobody ever breaks interfaces or introduces bugs in 200 hours of hacking,
right?
> The other environments do not come close, even
> when they are taken together.
I ideally want to be using an environment where close to zero man hours of work
are going on. Per year.
Thanks for playing.
> Also Clojure offers tools to easily develop concurrent-ready applications.
> Of course, those tools are available for all languages that run on the
> JVM. But it's still the question how natural they are to use from other
> languages. And if someone makes constantly use of those features, then
> she could as well use the original.
> ABCL was recently updated, but it seems that not 10 people spent
> basically all their freetime to work on it (although I would find it
That appears more stable than Closure, but still a lot of churn.
Someone kindly post an announcement when an ABCL release introduces no
new features and fixes fewer than five bugs, all under a single
developer.
> certainly very nice to have a very advanced CL compiler targetting the
> JVM). On its front page it has big warnings about bugs and talks about
> how slow it runs.
There are two kinds of projects: those which warn about bugs and performance
problems on their front page ... and dishonest projects run by liars.
ABCL is valuable because it implements an industry-standard dialect of Lisp on
the JVM. It may be the only reason some Lisp programmers would be even
remotely interested in the JVM. Count me in that set.
> It seems these Lisps have a combined number of users which is about the
> same that Clojure gets every week.
The best Clojure can hope for is to attract all existing Lisp programmers,
after which the number of new users will slow to a vanishingly slow trickle.
Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com> wrote:
+---------------
| André Thieme <······························@justmail.de> wrote:
| > Every day 10-200 man hours of work are put into freely available
| > Clojure libs and tools.
|
| Do you want to be relying on something that requires a daily investment
| of up to 200 man-hours of some combination of new coding and debugging?
...
| I ideally want to be using an environment where close to zero man hours
| of work are going on. Per year.
+---------------
Hah! You beat me to it! I was just about to say the same thing!! ;-} ;-}
In fact, that's the main reason I switched from Scheme to Common Lisp
in the first place -- both the standard & major implementations for
the latter are much more stable.
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Kaz Kylheku schrieb:
> On 2009-04-09, André Thieme <······························@justmail.de> wrote:
>> them. Every day 10-200 man hours of work are put into freely available
>> Clojure libs and tools.
>
> Do you want to be relying on something that requires a daily investment of up
> to 200 man-hours of some combination of new coding and debugging?
>
> Nobody ever breaks interfaces or introduces bugs in 200 hours of hacking,
> right?
>
>> The other environments do not come close, even
>> when they are taken together.
>
> I ideally want to be using an environment where close to zero man hours of work
> are going on. Per year.
You can check out the current svn version of Clojure and Clojure-Contrib
and don't update for some years.
So, your personal interests can be met.
Most people however prefer it if their systems evolve.
I like that sbcl publishes a new version every month. You maybe don't
like that and attribute this to the "low quality" of sbcl.
Same with Allegro. Franz constantly puts great work into it.
I think this is what makes Allegro interesting, not bad.
I don't see this as a sign of immaturity. They just evolve their
product.
>> certainly very nice to have a very advanced CL compiler targetting the
>> JVM). On its front page it has big warnings about bugs and talks about
>> how slow it runs.
>
> There are two kinds of projects: those which warn about bugs and performance
> problems on their front page ... and dishonest projects run by liars.
In which category are Lispworks and Allegro?
I haven't seen performance warnings on their front pages...
> ABCL is valuable because it implements an industry-standard dialect of Lisp on
> the JVM. It may be the only reason some Lisp programmers would be even
> remotely interested in the JVM. Count me in that set.
I would be more than glad if 10% of the work being done on Clojure would
go into SBCL.
If ABCL would support the full CL standard and compile into highly
efficient bytecode then it would be a nice option for some people.
Also, in ABCL you can use all the work that is being done for Clojure.
>> It seems these Lisps have a combined number of users which is about the
>> same that Clojure gets every week.
>
> The best Clojure can hope for is to attract all existing Lisp programmers,
> after which the number of new users will slow to a vanishingly slow trickle.
People from all languages are switching to Clojure.
I think by now (ex-) Java people already outnumber us CL/Scheme guys.
We can see how Clojure will continue to develop this year, when the book
comes out, even more blogs write about it, when Slashdot and reddit link
to Clojure projects, etc.
André
--
Lisp is not dead. It’s just the URL that has changed:
http://clojure.org/
André Thieme wrote:
> Pascal Costanza schrieb:
>> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>>> On Apr 9, 1:37 am, André Thieme <address.good.until.
>>> ···········@justmail.de> wrote:
>>>> BubbaFrench schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
>>>>>>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
>>>>>>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
>>>>>>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
>>>>>>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>>>>>> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
>>>>>> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
>>>>>> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
>>>>>> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>>>>>> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
>>>>>> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
>>>>>> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
>>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>>> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
>>>>>> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
>>>>>> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
>>>>>> decision problem.
>>>>>> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start programming in
>>>>>> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>>>>>> Tamas
>>>>> The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
>>>>> enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
>>>>> is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
>>>>> with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
>>>>> new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
>>>>> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of computers
>>>>> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
>>>>> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
>>>> If you already know Java then why don't you simply try Clojure?
>>>> You can recycle your knowledge of APIs and tools and get Lisp inside a
>>>> JVM. Maybe you can even convince your project manager that you can
>>>> write
>>>> some of your companies code in Clojure.
>>>> But even if you just want it for your hobby projects have a
>>>> look.http://clojure.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or ABCL....
>>
>> ...or SISC or Kawa or JScheme or Stella or ...
>>
>
> Did you try them all out (extensively)? They all seem fine for hobby
> projects,
You really have no clue what you are talking about.
SISC is developed by and used at http://www.lshift.net/
Kawa lists a number of projects that use it here:
http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Projects.html
I didn't immediately find similar information about JScheme, but the
names behind this implementation suggest that it was certainly not
intended as a toy implementation.
The motivation for Stella is listed here:
http://www.isi.edu/isd/LOOM/Stella/
These are only the projects I listed. There are most likely more.
Pascal
--
ELS'09: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
Pascal Costanza schrieb:
> André Thieme wrote:
>> Pascal Costanza schrieb:
>>> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>>>> On Apr 9, 1:37 am, André Thieme <address.good.until.
>>>> ···········@justmail.de> wrote:
>>>>> BubbaFrench schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6 апр, 18:50, Tamas K Papp <······@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:39:29 -0700, BubbaFrench wrote:
>>>>>>>> If anyone is participating in some military, scientific, medical
>>>>>>>> projects - you can tell me your story too, cause it's not only
>>>>>>>> enterprise business applications that form the collections of
>>>>>>>> masterpieces of programming art, I think))
>>>>>>> I am solving economic models using Lisp, but I am certain that my
>>>>>>> programs don't belong in any "collections of masterpieces of
>>>>>>> programming art", more in the "barely manageable mudball" category.
>>>>>>> Still, they would be even less manageable in any other language.
>>>>>>> It is unclear to me what your purpose is. Are you trying to decide
>>>>>>> whether to use Lisp? Then why just not try it on your next project,
>>>>>>> whatever your field of expertise is? Then you will have first-hand
>>>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>>>> Somebody telling you about their great medical/military/etc
>>>>>>> application won't magically give you the knowledge to write
>>>>>>> medical/military/etc apps in Lisp, so this doesn't affect your
>>>>>>> decision problem.
>>>>>>> If you are just trying to gather your courage to start
>>>>>>> programming in
>>>>>>> Lisp, drink some kosher plum brandy and sit down at the keyboard.
>>>>>>> Tamas
>>>>>> The matter is, that company, I work for, does little but commercial
>>>>>> enterprise programming (I write in Java). There is no doubt that Java
>>>>>> is good for that. But there are some things, that Java cannot deal
>>>>>> with and Lisp can. That leads me to question - how that potential of
>>>>>> new programming patterns, that come with dynamic/reflexive language;
>>>>>> how can that potential lead to expansion of applicativity of
>>>>>> computers
>>>>>> to some fields where C/C++/Java/Python/etc can do little but a big
>>>>>> mess, or (what is even more important), can do nothing at all))
>>>>> If you already know Java then why don't you simply try Clojure?
>>>>> You can recycle your knowledge of APIs and tools and get Lisp inside a
>>>>> JVM. Maybe you can even convince your project manager that you can
>>>>> write
>>>>> some of your companies code in Clojure.
>>>>> But even if you just want it for your hobby projects have a
>>>>> look.http://clojure.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or ABCL....
>>>
>>> ...or SISC or Kawa or JScheme or Stella or ...
>>>
>>
>> Did you try them all out (extensively)? They all seem fine for hobby
>> projects,
>
> You really have no clue what you are talking about.
I am surprised that you become personal so fast.
> SISC is developed by and used at http://www.lshift.net/
>
> Kawa lists a number of projects that use it here:
> http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Projects.html
>
> I didn't immediately find similar information about JScheme, but the
> names behind this implementation suggest that it was certainly not
> intended as a toy implementation.
>
> The motivation for Stella is listed here:
> http://www.isi.edu/isd/LOOM/Stella/
>
> These are only the projects I listed. There are most likely more.
It's nice to see that they have a combined number of eight projects
using these implementations. And yes, I also believe that there are
more.
Kawa has the longest list, but it also had 11 years of time to list
these six projects. Anyway, BubbaFrench should decide himself.
We can only give suggestions from personal experience of
implementations with which we worked ourself at least a few months.
André
--
Lisp is not dead. It’s just the URL that has changed:
http://clojure.org/