From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: where is the lisp operating system?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1222066005.10480.413.camel@blackbox>
On Sat, 2008-09-20 at 21:37 -0700, gavino wrote:
> where is the lisp operating system?
> 
> If lisp is more powerful........then why is there not a working lispos
> with a desktop and broswer?

You could ask this question about many things in the world in general. 

..it's pretty much all fucked up.

Best you can do is to ignore it (don't "push" or go head-to-head(#1))
while trying to fix it. In particular, don't bother trying to fix it
"from the top". Rising to the top so you can take action later will only
limit or box you in.

Start somewhere close to the bottom(#2) or somewhere in the middle, so
the ground beneath the feet of our current masters is removed; so that
their "connection with reality" is gone.

..this will enable one to replace the lowest levels easily later: Win32
-> Linux -> anything (because we have the power, _and_ the resources
now).

This is why the Internet is so important; both socially (the world,
politics, ability to communicate and influence) and when it comes to
technology (OS, languages -- your context/example). It enables one to
fix things from the bottom/middle up by removing the dependency on the
current foundation without "them" noticing it.

..maybe this isn't making any sense; screw you all to hell....., but our
browsers is that middle ground. Firefox and Chrome, the Open Source (we
have the power for once) browsers, is removing the ground beneath the
feet of our current masters.


#1: I wouldn't spend too much time convincing others around me ("like
me") of what I see either. Do it yourself; this is possible now. We have
cheap supercomputers at home and we're connected to the Internet. You
don't need many hands (or brute force) either; Lisp is so powerful one
mind with two hands is enough to change everything.

#2: If it is too low, it will take too much time to "connect with
reality". Your efforts as one person will be watered out.

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb

From: gavino
Subject: Re: where is the lisp operating system?
Date: 
Message-ID: <94a92533-eb46-4686-80f2-efe5aefaec3b@25g2000prz.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 21, 11:46 pm, Lars Rune Nøstdal <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-09-20 at 21:37 -0700, gavino wrote:
> > where is the lisp operating system?
>
> > If lisp is more powerful........then why is there not a working lispos
> > with a desktop and broswer?
>
> You could ask this question about many things in the world in general.
>
> ..it's pretty much all fucked up.
>
> Best you can do is to ignore it (don't "push" or go head-to-head(#1))
> while trying to fix it. In particular, don't bother trying to fix it
> "from the top". Rising to the top so you can take action later will only
> limit or box you in.
>
> Start somewhere close to the bottom(#2) or somewhere in the middle, so
> the ground beneath the feet of our current masters is removed; so that
> their "connection with reality" is gone.
>
> ..this will enable one to replace the lowest levels easily later: Win32
> -> Linux -> anything (because we have the power, _and_ the resources
> now).
>
> This is why the Internet is so important; both socially (the world,
> politics, ability to communicate and influence) and when it comes to
> technology (OS, languages -- your context/example). It enables one to
> fix things from the bottom/middle up by removing the dependency on the
> current foundation without "them" noticing it.
>
> ..maybe this isn't making any sense; screw you all to hell....., but our
> browsers is that middle ground. Firefox and Chrome, the Open Source (we
> have the power for once) browsers, is removing the ground beneath the
> feet of our current masters.
>
> #1: I wouldn't spend too much time convincing others around me ("like
> me") of what I see either. Do it yourself; this is possible now. We have
> cheap supercomputers at home and we're connected to the Internet. You
> don't need many hands (or brute force) either; Lisp is so powerful one
> mind with two hands is enough to change everything.
>
> #2: If it is too low, it will take too much time to "connect with
> reality". Your efforts as one person will be watered out.
>
> --
> Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisphttp://nostdal.org/||http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb

interesting what do you mean by too much time to onnct w reality? for
#2?
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: where is the lisp operating system?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1222084089.10480.495.camel@blackbox>
On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 03:44 -0700, gavino wrote:
> On Sep 21, 11:46 pm, Lars Rune Nøstdal <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-09-20 at 21:37 -0700, gavino wrote:
> > > where is the lisp operating system?
> >
> > > If lisp is more powerful........then why is there not a working lispos
> > > with a desktop and broswer?
> >
> > You could ask this question about many things in the world in general.
> >
> > ..it's pretty much all fucked up.
> >
> > Best you can do is to ignore it (don't "push" or go head-to-head(#1))
> > while trying to fix it. In particular, don't bother trying to fix it
> > "from the top". Rising to the top so you can take action later will only
> > limit or box you in.
> >
> > Start somewhere close to the bottom(#2) or somewhere in the middle, so
> > the ground beneath the feet of our current masters is removed; so that
> > their "connection with reality" is gone.
> >
> > ..this will enable one to replace the lowest levels easily later: Win32
> > -> Linux -> anything (because we have the power, _and_ the resources
> > now).
> >
> > This is why the Internet is so important; both socially (the world,
> > politics, ability to communicate and influence) and when it comes to
> > technology (OS, languages -- your context/example). It enables one to
> > fix things from the bottom/middle up by removing the dependency on the
> > current foundation without "them" noticing it.
> >
> > ..maybe this isn't making any sense; screw you all to hell....., but our
> > browsers is that middle ground. Firefox and Chrome, the Open Source (we
> > have the power for once) browsers, is removing the ground beneath the
> > feet of our current masters.
> >
> > #1: I wouldn't spend too much time convincing others around me ("like
> > me") of what I see either. Do it yourself; this is possible now. We have
> > cheap supercomputers at home and we're connected to the Internet. You
> > don't need many hands (or brute force) either; Lisp is so powerful one
> > mind with two hands is enough to change everything.
> >
> > #2: If it is too low, it will take too much time to "connect with
> > reality". Your efforts as one person will be watered out.
> >
> 
> interesting what do you mean by too much time to connect w reality? for
> #2?

The current lack of resources to create something "useful" in Lisp from
the _very lowest_ levels and up.

It's like a game where the best tactic is to divide and conquer and
attack at weak spots; exploit and find leaks(#1).

Owning the "entire world" is the goal, but you're not stupid enough to
attack on all fronts at the same time or attack "them" at the currently
very solid and strong foundation (low-level stuff). Instead, you divide
and conquer and attack "them" at their weakest spots.

I think our best starting-point or strategy today is to make sure we can
deliver content/applications to any OS-stack. This will eventually
render the Win32 stack entirely "pointless", replaceable and weak. Which
will lead us to the Linux stack, which finally means "we" (real
developers and people; not some closed company) are fully in control.
Which _then_ will enable us to slowly replace Linux with a Lisp OS.

..this is what _everyone_ wants; they just don't know it yet. Even the
ones who do not know anything else than C and Linux-admin type of work
and thinks Lisp looks like utter shit wants this; you'll see.


#1: The browser is such a leak; it allows you to run your Lisp
application anywhere. It allows you to sneak in things that do not
depend on the Win32 stack (or the Linux stack, really; next step is thus
Lisp OS) at all.

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
From: Ali
Subject: Re: where is the lisp operating system?
Date: 
Message-ID: <180a88d0-a8ac-4c25-81ef-038d3ae8a611@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 22, 12:48 pm, Lars Rune Nøstdal <···········@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think our best starting-point or strategy today is to make sure we can
> deliver content/applications to any OS-stack.

That's existed for quite some time now. Its called Wine and runs on
Mac and Linux. Still isn't good enough for serious gamers, but
everyone else could happily switch and they are. Just a few days ago I
saw a magazine devoted to switching from Windows to Linux, and I'd bet
that Wine was big part of that.

> It allows you to sneak in things that do not
> depend on the Win32 stack

Which is why Microsoft is very scared of Google.

Anyway, before you take over the world, don't forget to take one of
the little red pills the doctor gave you.
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: where is the lisp operating system?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1222086460.10480.502.camel@blackbox>
On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 05:12 -0700, Ali wrote:
> On Sep 22, 12:48 pm, Lars Rune Nøstdal <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I think our best starting-point or strategy today is to make sure we can
> > deliver content/applications to any OS-stack.
> 
> That's existed for quite some time now. Its called Wine and runs on
> Mac and Linux. Still isn't good enough for serious gamers, but
> everyone else could happily switch and they are. Just a few days ago I
> saw a magazine devoted to switching from Windows to Linux, and I'd bet
> that Wine was big part of that.

Yeah, I've been using it for years and it's great. Impressive stuff
considering what they are dealing with.

> > It allows you to sneak in things that do not
> > depend on the Win32 stack
> 
> Which is why Microsoft is very scared of Google.

Yeah.

> Anyway, before you take over the world, don't forget to take one of
> the little red pills the doctor gave you.

I picked the red one years ago; I didn't get it from a doctor though. ;)

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb