From: Kenny
Subject: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <48bbda3d$0$29512$607ed4bc@cv.net>
MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!

Now there's no place left to hide!

MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!

Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have to 
replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I notice 
books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on a row 
instead of in a column or verse vicea.

My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server side, 
but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the client 
side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and CSS, but 
I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder to get 
the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.

No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?

kt

From: Joost Diepenmaat
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <87od385akd.fsf@zeekat.nl>
Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
>
> Now there's no place left to hide!

I noticed :-)

> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
>
> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have
> to replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I
> notice books have been written on how to get a browser to put things
> on a row instead of in a column or verse vicea.
>
> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server
> side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the
> client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and
> CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG
> pagebuilder to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
>
> No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?

Real Web Developers don't use WYSIWYG tools. Because they all
suck. *Especially* if you want to script the pages later.

Recommendations: use emacs js2-mode for javascript. Make sure your
pages have an HTML4 strict doctype (NOT XHTML):

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
            "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

and verify that it actually validates. it should make scripting (and
CSS styling) a lot more reliable/portable.

Also: get the firebug plugin for firefox. It's by far the best tool
for all kinds of web testing/debugging. http://getfirebug.com/

/now why is this in comp.lang.lisp again?

HTH,
J.

-- 
Joost Diepenmaat | blog: http://joost.zeekat.nl/ | work: http://zeekat.nl/
From: Ali
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <ebb73fd0-ce85-4695-a8ec-e347209f9f42@73g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 1, 1:12 pm, Joost Diepenmaat <·····@zeekat.nl> wrote:
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
>             "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

Yes, I second that. Also, by default do not add trailing backslash to
non-closed elements like <img> and <input>. The above DOCTYPE is a
good default, but there must be a customisable *doctype* variable or
suchlike. That way I could alternatively use either or:

a) "<!-- quirks --> <!DOCTYPE html>"
b) "<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN\"
 \"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd\">"

Always lowercase tagnames, always quote the attribute value even in
HTML, always use numbered entities like &#38; instead of &amp;

Most important is how the white-space is generated. In some cases, you
might want it, but in others, you don't!
I used to follow the rule that all parent tags had whitespace around,
but the leaves had none:

<div>
  <strong>Foo</strong>
</div>

However, I think I took <li> and <a> as an exception, because
generally I didn't want white space in these elements fullstop.
My only guess is to default as with the example above, but allow
something like

(no-space (:a :href "/mypage" (:strong "Click here!!!!!!")))

-> <a href="/mypage"><strong>Click here!!!!!!</strong></a>

rather than

<a href="/mypage">
  <strong>Click here!!!!!!</strong>
</a>
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <48bbe4f9$0$20899$607ed4bc@cv.net>
Joost Diepenmaat wrote:
> Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
>>
>>Now there's no place left to hide!
> 
> 
> I noticed :-)
> 
> 
>>MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
>>
>>Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have
>>to replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I
>>notice books have been written on how to get a browser to put things
>>on a row instead of in a column or verse vicea.
>>
>>My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server
>>side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the
>>client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and
>>CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG
>>pagebuilder to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
>>
>>No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?
> 
> 
> Real Web Developers don't use WYSIWYG tools. Because they all
> suck. *Especially* if you want to script the pages later.
> 
> Recommendations: use emacs js2-mode for javascript. Make sure your
> pages have an HTML4 strict doctype (NOT XHTML):
> 
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
>             "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
> 
> and verify that it actually validates. it should make scripting (and
> CSS styling) a lot more reliable/portable.

Thx. I plan to tell them which browser to use. (Or they will tell me.) 
This is not for hoi polloi.

> 
> Also: get the firebug plugin for firefox. It's by far the best tool
> for all kinds of web testing/debugging. http://getfirebug.com/

Oh, yeah, I should have given that credit, too, along with Franz 
WebActions for making me the God of Ajax.

> 
> /now why is this in comp.lang.lisp again?

You only have yourselves to blame: I get better faster help here on any 
subject than on any NG dedicated to the subject.

kenzo
From: namekuseijin
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <2c2757a9-9b73-4c47-8ca9-ba9adc6ac41b@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On 1 set, 09:50, Kenny <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> I get better faster help here on any
> subject than on any NG dedicated to the subject.

Web-related questions have more chance of success by being asked in
web forums.  Kids these days don't even know what NNTP means and may
only perhaps have heard of usenet under the guise of GoogleGroups.
Even mailinglists are more popular than newsgroups.
From: Pascal J. Bourguignon
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <7ck5dwowo1.fsf@pbourguignon.anevia.com>
Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server
> side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the
> client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and
> CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG
> pagebuilder to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.

I'd guess so.  There are commercial products.


> No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?

I'd recommend Netscape Composer (aka Kompozer), but perhaps you should
ask the real professionnal on some web development newsgroup?

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__
From: Ali
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <d4ed7946-475c-4930-a438-65e102a3db02@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 1, 1:52 pm, ····@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:
> Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> > CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG
> > pagebuilder to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.

Skipped over that part. As far as I'm aware, in this case there's a
back-end guy who uses something to generate "semantic" HTML with
class= and id= all over the place, and then a Real Web Designer hand
codes the CSS onto that, occasionally asking for things to be re-
arranged.

But yeah, you'd probably want to ask some pro's.

If you are generating the (X)HTML, you should also have a variable to
determine tag-closing. Hunchentoot uses "sgml" or "xml" as the
options, but I think that's a bit inaccurate. The modes could possibly
be "html", "xhtml" or "xhtml2" (where the xhtml2 uses <img></img>
instead of just <img>). It may even be possible to determine this
using .dtd files, but that would also be overkill.
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <u3akjh7rd.fsf@agharta.de>
On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 06:25:25 -0700 (PDT), Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hunchentoot uses "sgml" or "xml" as the options

Where does Hunchentoot do that?

-- 

Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.

Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
From: Ali
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <a0332efb-1fed-42b3-a446-7579e5d73d04@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 1, 10:32 pm, Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 06:25:25 -0700 (PDT), Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hunchentoot uses "sgml" or "xml" as the options
>
> Where does Hunchentoot do that?

(setf (HTML-MODE) :SGML)

It's no problem and I'm not insulting your software, in fact all of
the examples are from your software because that's what I'm using :)
Anyway, I'm not sure if my comments are relevant to what Kenny's
asking about looking at other replies.
From: Ali
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <27b3d4c7-50b1-47a8-adbc-a3d5b0f2305b@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
Oh, now I see my mistake.
CL-WHO uses the above setting, not Hunchentoot, and I'm also using CL-
WHO...
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <48bbeb7f$0$20906$607ed4bc@cv.net>
Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
> Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>>My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server
>>side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the
>>client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and
>>CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG
>>pagebuilder to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
> 
> , but perhaps you should
> ask the real professionnal on some web development newsgroup?
> 

They get all macho and tell me to use NotePad.

Face it, anyone on usenet is a jerk. The only way to get past that is to 
ask an off-topic question to get them out of all-knowing-butthead mode. 
So I ask here about CSS and when I need help on Lisp you'll find me on a 
site for alien abductions.

They're pretty good, actually.

hth, kenxo
From: Frank GOENNINGER
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <lzsksj98sy.fsf@goenninger.net>
Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
>
> Now there's no place left to hide!
>
> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
>
> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have
> to replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I
> notice books have been written on how to get a browser to put things
> on a row instead of in a column or verse vicea.
>
> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server
> side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the
> client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and
> CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG
> pagebuilder to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
>
> No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?
>
> kt

Adobe Dreamweaver CS3. Nice support for CSS and stuff. NOT free
software. But still affordable for professional work. It supports
publishing the process, too. Also, the division between Designer and
Programmer can be setup.

I am using it.

Best,
  Frank 
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <op.ugs0iw2aut4oq5@pandora.alfanett.no>
P� Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:04:16 +0200, skrev Kenny <·········@gmail.com>:

> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
>
> Now there's no place left to hide!
>
> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
>
> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have to  
> replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I notice  
> books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on a row  
> instead of in a column or verse vicea.
>
> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server side,  
> but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the client  
> side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and CSS, but  
> I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder to get  
> the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
>
> No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?
>
> kt

Yes and no. If you want a WYSIWIG tool to design web pages take a look at  
dreamweaver.

Or you can code it youself.
www.sitepoint.com has a lot of practical and easy to follow books with  
lots of real code examples.
Written by professionals they explain the gnarly details of how things  
work with different browsers and versions.
Also they have online CSS and HTML references which are among the best I  
have seen.

As for books:

"HTML Utopia, designing without tables using CSS" and
"Build you own AJAX web applications" might be worth a few bucks.
(And save you a few weeks of grief..)

There is some PHP code in the second book I mentioned so you would have to  
traslate that.
(Not a huge problem it's still CGI under the hood regardless of language.)
Besides there are no books on Lisp web developement that I am aware of.

-------------
John Thingstad
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <1220310042.5942.29.camel@blackbox>
On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 08:04 -0400, Kenny wrote:
> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
> 
> Now there's no place left to hide!
> 
> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have to 
> replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I notice 
> books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on a row 
> instead of in a column or verse vicea.

lol .. yeah. CSS is shit.

Just give us JIT'ed JavaScript and a blazing fast setPixel/getPixel type
API (ok, point is; "make the hard things possible") and get out of our
way already;

  http://ejohn.org/blog/tracemonkey/

> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server side, 
> but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the client 
> side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and CSS, but 
> I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder to get 
> the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.

I think many actually do it by hand. They don't write from scratch each
time of course. They have collections of hacks, workarounds and tools
etc. stored in files they reuse.

> No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?

Hm, you could just give up? Well, I try to get others to deal with it.
There is just too much stuff to do on the programming end already.

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
From: ······@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <62aaf821-4be3-4d31-bbdb-def7f32835e5@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com>
frankly, O, Kenny.

Web design? I'm the master.

My website, is 3792+ html pages. About two thousand seven hundred of
them are hand crafted html with emacs. (and, each one of them are
valid html, consistent, and i actually create them faster than any
professional web monkey who uses web-creation tool such as
DreamWeaver. Trust me.)

Of my website, there are 3 css pages:

for computer lang pages:
http://xahlee.org/lang.css

for literature pages:
http://xahlee.org/lit.css

Basic for all pages:
http://xahlee.org/lbasic.css

             *             *             *

What are some example html pages that uses the computer lang css?

here:

• emacs lisp basics
http://xahlee.org/emacs/elisp_basics.html

• Sorting in Python and Perl
http://xahlee.org/perl-python/sort_list.html

• Arrays in Java
http://xahlee.org/java-a-day/arrays.html

• Constructive Solid Geometry with POV-Ray
http://xahlee.org/3d/povray-csg.html

             *             *             *

What are some example of html pages that uses literature css?

Here:

• What Desires Are Politically Correct?
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/_p2/russell-lecture.html

• A Modest Proposal
http://xahlee.org/p/a_modest_proposal.html

• The Tale Of The Bull And The Ass
http://xahlee.org/p/arabian_nights/an2.html

------------------------------------------

But to answer your question, i have written:

• Xah's DHTML Tutorial
http://xahlee.org/js/js.html

Actually, just ask me to do it for you. What do you need, really? I'm
cheap. In fact, for you, you say a price you think is reasonable, i'll
do it. It's better than free because you don't have a friend-doing-a-
favor nag and it's almost free.

... i see the tech geekers are starting to want you to read w3c spec
while others suggesting DreamWeaver or Netscape's composer and
esoterica like emacs js2-mode and firefox's firebug... I LOL ...

> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server side,
> but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the client
> side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and CSS, but
> I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder to get
> the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.

most sites today use website generating systems aka Content Management
System (CMS). You can read on Wikipedia about it... there are tens of
them. Basically, you just pay $20 something a month for a web hosting
sevice provider, then do a few clicks on the web based control panel
to innstall forum, mailing list, wiki etc features, then you just edit
the page like Wikipedia then you have a site... more or less like that
for small time businesses.

almost nobady today manually creates html... even most tech geekers
don't do that anymore.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

On Sep 1, 5:04 am, Kenny <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
>
> Now there's no place left to hide!
>
> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
>
> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have to
> replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I notice
> books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on a row
> instead of in a column or verse vicea.
>
> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server side,
> but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the client
> side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and CSS, but
> I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder to get
> the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
>
> No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?
>
> kt
From: Kjetil
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <48bdb98b$1@news.broadpark.no>
Kenny wrote:
> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
> 
> Now there's no place left to hide!
> 
> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have to 
> replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I notice 
> books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on a row 
> instead of in a column or verse vicea.
> 

<http://www.w3schools.com/> covers a fair bit of ground on html/css.
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <48bdc6fc$0$7333$607ed4bc@cv.net>
Kjetil wrote:
> Kenny wrote:
> 
>> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
>>
>> Now there's no place left to hide!
>>
>> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
>>
>> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have 
>> to replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I 
>> notice books have been written on how to get a browser to put things 
>> on a row instead of in a column or verse vicea.
>>
> 
> <http://www.w3schools.com/> covers a fair bit of ground on html/css.

Yep, and google as a rule so far as picked up the slack. I have made a 
deal with the devil and am using tables, and was smart enough to take a 
screenshot off Safari instead of FireFox to submit to the client. :)

thx, kt
From: verec
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <48c1d0e6$0$522$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
On 2008-09-01 13:04:16 +0100, Kenny <·········@gmail.com> said:

> MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
> 
> Now there's no place left to hide!
> 
> MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have 
> to replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I 
> notice books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on 
> a row instead of in a column or verse vicea.
> 
> My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server 
> side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the 
> client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and 
> CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder 
> to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
> 
> No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?
> 
> kt

Juts in case you missed it: http://cappuccino.org is a ... Hum ...
interesting approach. In a nutshell: no CSS, no HTML, 100% JavaScript ...
... Uhh ... well ... Objective-J which is a port of Apple/GNUStep
Cocoa framework to do interesting stuff on the client. Apparently works
on all of most modern browsers with decemt javascript engines.

The learning curve might be steep ... but you surely can envision
emitting those Objective-J/JavaScript thingies from your own Lisp DSL?

Probably worth more than a simple cursory look: their demos
http://280slides.com is quite impressive (I tested on XP/Firefox
and OS X 10.5/Safari) :-)

Given that everybody (Firefox, Safari/WebKit, and now Google Chrome) seems
to be betting on high performance JavaScript engines on the client,
that might be the (not so long term) choice par excellence! :-)

HTH
--
JFB
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <1220711459.10480.10.camel@blackbox>
On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 01:37 +0100, verec wrote:
> On 2008-09-01 13:04:16 +0100, Kenny <·········@gmail.com> said:
> 
> > MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
> > 
> > Now there's no place left to hide!
> > 
> > MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
> > 
> > Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have 
> > to replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I 
> > notice books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on 
> > a row instead of in a column or verse vicea.
> > 
> > My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server 
> > side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the 
> > client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and 
> > CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder 
> > to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
> > 
> > No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?
> > 
> > kt
> 
> Juts in case you missed it: http://cappuccino.org is a ... Hum ...
> interesting approach. In a nutshell: no CSS, no HTML, 100% JavaScript ...
> ... Uhh ... well ... Objective-J which is a port of Apple/GNUStep
> Cocoa framework to do interesting stuff on the client. Apparently works
> on all of most modern browsers with decemt javascript engines.
> 
> The learning curve might be steep ... but you surely can envision
> emitting those Objective-J/JavaScript thingies from your own Lisp DSL?
> 
> Probably worth more than a simple cursory look: their demos
> http://280slides.com is quite impressive (I tested on XP/Firefox
> and OS X 10.5/Safari) :-)
> 
> Given that everybody (Firefox, Safari/WebKit, and now Google Chrome) seems
> to be betting on high performance JavaScript engines on the client,
> that might be the (not so long term) choice par excellence! :-)
> 
> HTH
> --
> JFB
> 

What about something like ParenScript? It goes Lispy DSL --> JavaScript
directly, instead of doing Lispy DSL --> Objective-J --> JavaScript.

..and yeah, with Firefox-3.1 and Chorme we're moving towards JavaScript
becoming the ASM or C of the web. The potential here is very
interesting.

It's becoming the only thing that runs everywhere _instantly_ without
people having to install or "do" anything; just share the URL, and
networking is "built in".

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <op.ug2dp8paut4oq5@pandora.alfanett.no>
P� Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:30:59 +0200, skrev Lars Rune N�stdal  
<···········@gmail.com>:

>
> What about something like ParenScript? It goes Lispy DSL --> JavaScript
> directly, instead of doing Lispy DSL --> Objective-J --> JavaScript.
>
> ..and yeah, with Firefox-3.1 and Chorme we're moving towards JavaScript
> becoming the ASM or C of the web. The potential here is very
> interesting.
>
> It's becoming the only thing that runs everywhere _instantly_ without
> people having to install or "do" anything; just share the URL, and
> networking is "built in".
>

Objective-J is just a thin layer of java-script to support object  
orientation.
You don't need a separate download to run it.

--------------
John Thingstad
From: verec
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <48c29d6d$0$516$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
On 2008-09-06 15:40:46 +0100, "John Thingstad" <·······@online.no> said:

> Objective-J is just a thin layer of java-script to support
> object  orientation. You don't need a separate download
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It probably would be more precise to state: "class based OO",
because JavaScript is already OO (just not class based). And
frankly, I'm quite glad that the "prototype based" JavaScript
is becoming more mainstream, thus freeing us from the "everything
is a class" tyranny :-)

Sorry for neing such a nitpicker, but I felt it had to be said :-)

OTOH, that Objective-J layer (as embedded JavaScript) is not
so important per se, as is the large framework (Foundation
& AppKit) that help put "graphical stuff" on the screen in
a way that users can interact with, almost being able to
forget they're dealing with a browser and the internet.

The corporate world wants "web apps", but end users favor
"desktop apps". Cappuccino seems to bridge that gap.
--
JFB
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <1220713608.10480.12.camel@blackbox>
On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 16:40 +0200, John Thingstad wrote:
> På Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:30:59 +0200, skrev Lars Rune Nøstdal  
> <···········@gmail.com>:
> 
> >
> > What about something like ParenScript? It goes Lispy DSL --> JavaScript
> > directly, instead of doing Lispy DSL --> Objective-J --> JavaScript.
> >
> > ..and yeah, with Firefox-3.1 and Chorme we're moving towards JavaScript
> > becoming the ASM or C of the web. The potential here is very
> > interesting.
> >
> > It's becoming the only thing that runs everywhere _instantly_ without
> > people having to install or "do" anything; just share the URL, and
> > networking is "built in".
> >
> 
> Objective-J is just a thin layer of java-script to support object  
> orientation.
> You don't need a separate download to run it.
> 
> --------------
> John Thingstad

Ok. I haven't tried this, but there is a CLOS-type thing/extension for
ParenScript: http://common-lisp.net/project/suave/  (PSOS)

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: Kenny does the Web! <spit>
Date: 
Message-ID: <1220714712.10480.20.camel@blackbox>
On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 16:30 +0200, Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 01:37 +0100, verec wrote:
> > On 2008-09-01 13:04:16 +0100, Kenny <·········@gmail.com> said:
> > 
> > > MWAUHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHA!!!!!
> > > 
> > > Now there's no place left to hide!
> > > 
> > > MWUAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!
> > > 
> > > Thx to a nice example from Franz I be doing Ajax. One problem: I have 
> > > to replicate a RoR web page that looks like a Form 1040. Meanwhile I 
> > > notice books have been written on how to get a browser to put things on 
> > > a row instead of in a column or verse vicea.
> > > 
> > > My mission is more about doing fancier things faster on the server 
> > > side, but I do not know how much ugliness I can get away with on the 
> > > client side. I am doing my best in hand-to-hand fighting with HTML and 
> > > CSS, but I am wondering if Real Web Designers use a WYSIWYG pagebuilder 
> > > to get the HTML and CSS and then fill in the JS.
> > > 
> > > No? Yes? If so, recommendations________________________?
> > > 
> > > kt
> > 
> > Juts in case you missed it: http://cappuccino.org is a ... Hum ...
> > interesting approach. In a nutshell: no CSS, no HTML, 100% JavaScript ...
> > ... Uhh ... well ... Objective-J which is a port of Apple/GNUStep
> > Cocoa framework to do interesting stuff on the client. Apparently works
> > on all of most modern browsers with decemt javascript engines.
> > 
> > The learning curve might be steep ... but you surely can envision
> > emitting those Objective-J/JavaScript thingies from your own Lisp DSL?
> > 
> > Probably worth more than a simple cursory look: their demos
> > http://280slides.com is quite impressive (I tested on XP/Firefox
> > and OS X 10.5/Safari) :-)
> > 
> > Given that everybody (Firefox, Safari/WebKit, and now Google Chrome) seems
> > to be betting on high performance JavaScript engines on the client,
> > that might be the (not so long term) choice par excellence! :-)
> > 
> > HTH
> > --
> > JFB
> > 
> 
> What about something like ParenScript? It goes Lispy DSL --> JavaScript
> directly, instead of doing Lispy DSL --> Objective-J --> JavaScript.
> 
> ..and yeah, with Firefox-3.1 and Chorme we're moving towards JavaScript
> becoming the ASM or C of the web. The potential here is very
> interesting.
> 
> It's becoming the only thing that runs everywhere _instantly_ without
> people having to install or "do" anything; just share the URL, and
> networking is "built in".

Quite fun to play with this actually; combining ParenScript and
SymbolicWeb:

  SW> (run (js:ps (defun test (x y)
                    (alert (+ x y))))
            *view*)
  "function test(x, y) {
      alert(x + y);
  };
  "

  SW> (run (js:ps (test 123 321)) *view*)


..and an alert-box pops up in the browser. Returning values from the client:

  SW> (run (js:ps (defun test (x y)
                    (return (+ x y))))
           *view*)
  "function test(x, y) {
      return x + y;
  };
  "
  SW> (run (js:ps (return (test 123 321))) *view* :async-p nil)
  "444"


..or with JSON to get the right type:

  SW> (run (js:ps (return (test 123 321))) *view* :async-p nil :json-p t)
  444



-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal   || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb