On Sat, 2008-10-25 at 00:54 -0700, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
wrote:
> Yeah, as soon as some other lispers join me in creating a master
> directory to all the libraries per which intentional datatypes they
> deal with, whereby it'll be as easy to find the appropriate library
> for Lisp as it already is for Java. Then newcomers considering
> which language to try for their task will be able to look at both
> Java and Lisp as languages worth consiering, and they'll choose
> Lisp because it's a lot easier to actually use than Java is. Then
> word will get around how easy it is to perform all sorts of tasks
> in Lisp, and more and more people will convert to Lisp, and Lisp
> will become popular.
Why do you need other lispers to join you to do this? If you can't build
the core(#1) of what you're trying to describe - (vague description vs.
code?) - I don't think adding more people will get things moving.
ASDF is fairly standard. An extension or module for ASDF might work. It
will add blanks or holes to what people are using already, for them to
fill in - instead of requiring them to drop ASDF etc. entirely and start
from scratch.
http://www.cl-user.net/asp/search?search=asdf
I think Gary King is working on stuff that connects ASDF, documentation
and generation of documentation etc. in various ways .. at least it
seems he's heading in that direction.
#1: I can understand the dependency on others for say, PDF-generation,
but this is not a "hard requirement" for the core of a framework like
this.
--
Lars Rune Nøstdal || AJAX/Comet GUI type stuff for Common Lisp
http://nostdal.org/ || http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
Lars Rune Nøstdal escribió:
> On Sat, 2008-10-25 at 00:54 -0700, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> wrote:
>> Yeah, as soon as some other lispers join me in creating a master
>> directory to all the libraries per which intentional datatypes they
>> deal with, whereby it'll be as easy to find the appropriate library
>> for Lisp as it already is for Java. Then newcomers considering
>> which language to try for their task will be able to look at both
>> Java and Lisp as languages worth consiering, and they'll choose
>> Lisp because it's a lot easier to actually use than Java is. Then
>> word will get around how easy it is to perform all sorts of tasks
>> in Lisp, and more and more people will convert to Lisp, and Lisp
>> will become popular.
>
> Why do you need other lispers to join you to do this? If you can't build
> the core(#1) of what you're trying to describe - (vague description vs.
> code?) - I don't think adding more people will get things moving.
>
> ASDF is fairly standard. An extension or module for ASDF might work. It
> will add blanks or holes to what people are using already, for them to
> fill in - instead of requiring them to drop ASDF etc. entirely and start
> from scratch.
>
What's wrong with asdf-install and cliki.net? Isn't what is needed
already there?
Leandro Rios wrote:
> Lars Rune Nøstdal escribió:
>
>> On Sat, 2008-10-25 at 00:54 -0700, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, as soon as some other lispers join me in creating a master
>>> directory to all the libraries per which intentional datatypes they
>>> deal with, whereby it'll be as easy to find the appropriate library
>>> for Lisp as it already is for Java. Then newcomers considering
>>> which language to try for their task will be able to look at both
>>> Java and Lisp as languages worth consiering, and they'll choose
>>> Lisp because it's a lot easier to actually use than Java is. Then
>>> word will get around how easy it is to perform all sorts of tasks
>>> in Lisp, and more and more people will convert to Lisp, and Lisp
>>> will become popular.
>>
>>
>> Why do you need other lispers to join you to do this? If you can't build
>> the core(#1) of what you're trying to describe - (vague description vs.
>> code?) - I don't think adding more people will get things moving.
>>
>> ASDF is fairly standard. An extension or module for ASDF might work. It
>> will add blanks or holes to what people are using already, for them to
>> fill in - instead of requiring them to drop ASDF etc. entirely and start
>> from scratch.
>>
>
> What's wrong with asdf-install and cliki.net? Isn't what is needed
> already there?
>
I couldn't figure out the install directions for asdf-install.
hth, kenny
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Cons cell archaic!?
Date:
Message-ID: <gdvgfj$j2v$1@aioe.org>
Leandro Rios wrote:
> What's wrong with asdf-install and cliki.net? Isn't what is needed
> already there?
Well, cliki is a single point of failure. It's been down or unreachable
or trashed with spam in the past, causing great if transient
irritation. It always seemed just a little bit of a shaky foundation
to me. There's just something vaguely icky about a wiki, sorry. Yeah, I
know packages themselves are signed, thankfully, but still.
Plus, lisp projects for better or worse seem to live out of (D)VCS
repos* these days (SBCL's own clockwork release schedule being a
notable exception). Release tarballs always seem to be out of date when
I go to asdf-install something random. Not in principle a failing of
asdf-install, but I find I seldom use it these days. The phenomenon
isn't limited to lisp projects either. I suppose one could embrace it
and use DVCS superproject repos _as_ a package management and
distribution mechanism. i.e. enthusiastic nonlazy people could maintain
integrated "distros" of lisp checkouts from DVCS in known-good state as
DVCS superproject repos, maybe a happy medium between cl-build and
asdf-install... Uh. One barrier there being different lispers seem to
favour different very DVCSes (snarkily, none of which are written _in_
lisp).
* Various different (D)VCS, of course. Sometimes I miss the days when
everyone used CVS and we were all equally miserable. Now I've got
darcs,git,bzr,hg DVCSes ( plus of course CVS and SVN non-D VCSes.) on
my system for various (lisp or otherwise) projects I track. And they're
all a bit different (personally I favour git, but a lot of lispers seem
to like darcs, maybe functional solidarity with haskell or something).
On 2008-10-25 12:11:30 -0400, David Golden <············@oceanfree.net> said:
> Release tarballs always seem to be out of date when
> I go to asdf-install something random. Not in principle a failing of
> asdf-install, but I find I seldom use it these days.
Agreed - I've taken to routinely seeking out the svn or cvs or darcs
repository for projects now, having been bitten so many times in the
recent past by asdf-installable versions that were simply broken.
Naturally this doesn't even include projects which are not
asdf-installable, but for which asdf systems exist.
Raffael Cavallaro escribi�:
> On 2008-10-25 12:11:30 -0400, David Golden <············@oceanfree.net>
> said:
>
>> Release tarballs always seem to be out of date when
>> I go to asdf-install something random. Not in principle a failing of
>> asdf-install, but I find I seldom use it these days.
>
> Agreed - I've taken to routinely seeking out the svn or cvs or darcs
> repository for projects now, having been bitten so many times in the
> recent past by asdf-installable versions that were simply broken.
> Naturally this doesn't even include projects which are not
> asdf-installable, but for which asdf systems exist.
>
For example, for me it was really difficult to install cl-sql using
asdf-install.
But used debian apt, and worked very well.
The Debian apt is not very much updated (the version I'm using is from
april 2008), but just works.
Your posting software is broken, or you goofed doing it manually:
> From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <···········@gmail.com>
> In-Reply-To: <·················@yahoo.com>
> <····································@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com>
> <····································@u29g2000pro.googlegroups.com>
> <·················@yahoo.com>
The correct header field name is "References".
> > Yeah, as soon as some other lispers join me in creating a master
> > directory to all the libraries per which intentional datatypes they
> > deal with, whereby it'll be as easy to find the appropriate library
> > for Lisp as it already is for Java. Then newcomers considering
> > which language to try for their task will be able to look at both
> > Java and Lisp as languages worth consiering, and they'll choose
> > Lisp because it's a lot easier to actually use than Java is. Then
> > word will get around how easy it is to perform all sorts of tasks
> > in Lisp, and more and more people will convert to Lisp, and Lisp
> > will become popular.
> Why do you need other lispers to join you to do this? If you
> can't build the core(#1) of what you're trying to describe - (vague
> description vs. code?) - I don't think adding more people will get
> things moving.
At the present I'm deep in the middle of several projects, some
which I've been working on during recent weeks, one which I
*really* need to get back to after several months away from it,
several others not as urgent that I've suspended until I can decide
which to resume, and some brand-new that I feel are really
important to do as soon as I finish that one months-away project.
I'm not getting paid for any of this work, and not one person has
shown any interest in any of these projects, so I have no
particular reason to work on one project instead of another.
Creating a nicely organized index of all asdf libraries all by
myself, without any way to actually try *any* of them here, is
pretty low in priority until and unless somebody else shows some
interest in that project.
> ASDF is fairly standard.
Except I haven't been able to find any documentation for the most
basic thing about it, how to determine whether it's *already*
installed here on this Unix shell ISP or not, before I bother with
trying to install it under my personal shell account (I don't have
admin priviledges here so I can't install it globally on the ISP).
> An extension or module for ASDF might work. It will add blanks or
> holes to what people are using already, for them to fill in -
> instead of requiring them to drop ASDF etc. entirely and start from
> scratch.
I'm not proposing dropping ASDF, merely documentating the most
basic stuff about it so that I can get started trying to use it.
> http://www.cl-user.net/asp/search?search=3Dasdf
Found 0 Tags
Found 0 Libraries/tools/software
Found 0 documents
Found 0 persons
What was that *supposed* to do?
> I think Gary King is working on stuff that connects ASDF,
> documentation and generation of documentation etc. in various ways
> .. at least it seems he's heading in that direction.
Does he have an index of the categories of stuff available, or a
complete list of tagged records (plain/text usascii) which could be
downloaded and then processed here to generate an index?
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 12:38 -0800, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
wrote:
> Your posting software is broken, or you goofed doing it manually:
> > From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <···········@gmail.com>
> > In-Reply-To: <·················@yahoo.com>
> > <····································@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com>
> > <····································@u29g2000pro.googlegroups.com>
> > <·················@yahoo.com>
> The correct header field name is "References".
Yeah, so I heard. I don't know what's up; I think perhaps I was
upgrading "Evolution" when this happened, but I'm not sure. It seems ok
now though, I hope.
>
> > > Yeah, as soon as some other lispers join me in creating a master
> > > directory to all the libraries per which intentional datatypes they
> > > deal with, whereby it'll be as easy to find the appropriate library
> > > for Lisp as it already is for Java. Then newcomers considering
> > > which language to try for their task will be able to look at both
> > > Java and Lisp as languages worth consiering, and they'll choose
> > > Lisp because it's a lot easier to actually use than Java is. Then
> > > word will get around how easy it is to perform all sorts of tasks
> > > in Lisp, and more and more people will convert to Lisp, and Lisp
> > > will become popular.
> > Why do you need other lispers to join you to do this? If you
> > can't build the core(#1) of what you're trying to describe - (vague
> > description vs. code?) - I don't think adding more people will get
> > things moving.
> Creating a nicely organized index of all asdf libraries all by
> myself, without any way to actually try *any* of them here, is
> pretty low in priority until and unless somebody else shows some
> interest in that project.
Yeah, that makes no sense .. heh.
I think getting to grips with what (most? yeah, I think so) Lispers use
these days is a good idea:
* Linux+SBCL+Slime (excellent, but takes a while getting used to).
* ASDF (gets the job done, and "everyone" is using it).
* Darcs/git/SVN.
* ..and the Lisp-software and libraries used today, in general (plain
CGI for HTTP/web is seldom used these days... see Hunchentoot for
instance)
..if you don't have access to hardware able to run these things, I'd
forget everything else and focus on fixing this first.
> > ASDF is fairly standard.
>
> Except I haven't been able to find any documentation for the most
> basic thing about it, how to determine whether it's *already*
> installed here on this Unix shell ISP or not, before I bother with
> trying to install it under my personal shell account (I don't have
> admin priviledges here so I can't install it globally on the ISP).
A version of ASDF is included with SBCL.
.. and http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/ .. "asdf manual"; first hit on
Google.
> > An extension or module for ASDF might work. It will add blanks or
> > holes to what people are using already, for them to fill in -
> > instead of requiring them to drop ASDF etc. entirely and start from
> > scratch.
>
> I'm not proposing dropping ASDF, merely documentating the most
> basic stuff about it so that I can get started trying to use it.
>
> > http://www.cl-user.net/asp/search?search=3Dasdf
>
> Found 0 Tags
> Found 0 Libraries/tools/software
> Found 0 documents
> Found 0 persons
>
> What was that *supposed* to do?
I think your newsreader is screwing up this time, and/or I think you're
able to figure out what I meant.
> > I think Gary King is working on stuff that connects ASDF,
> > documentation and generation of documentation etc. in various ways
> > .. at least it seems he's heading in that direction.
>
> Does he have an index of the categories of stuff available, or a
> complete list of tagged records (plain/text usascii) which could be
> downloaded and then processed here to generate an index?
Dunno. Probably not, heh.