An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
www.lambdassociates.org
This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
Cyprus. *I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
possible*. Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
155Mb, so you do need cable.
best wishes
Mark
From: Brian Adkins
Subject: Re: Lisp for the Twenty First Century: audio talk
Date:
Message-ID: <m2k5ao91ja.fsf@gmail.com>
Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
> Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>
> www.lambdassociates.org
>
> This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
> Cyprus. *I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
> possible*. Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
>
> A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
> 155Mb, so you do need cable.
Would you care to post a link that works for Mac OSX also ? I was
greeted with a "missing plugin" welcome.
--
Brian Adkins
http://www.lojic.com/
http://lojic.com/blog/
On 27 Nov, 23:44, Brian Adkins <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> > An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
> > Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>
> >www.lambdassociates.org
>
> > This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
> > Cyprus. *I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
> > possible*. Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
>
> > A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
> > 155Mb, so you do need cable.
>
> Would you care to post a link that works for Mac OSX also ? I was
> greeted with a "missing plugin" welcome.
>
> --
> Brian Adkinshttp://www.lojic.com/http://lojic.com/blog/
I'll see what I can do. My online file conversion program is ill-
equipped to deal with converting a 155Mb wmv file :(. I'll see if
someone from qilang can convert this file and mirror the result.
Mark
On Nov 27, 7:09 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27 Nov, 23:44, Brian Adkins <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > www.lambdassociates.org
> > > A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
> > > 155Mb, so you do need cable.
> The page that should contain the audio file is broken (code points to
> local media file C:\somewhere\)
> > Would you care to post a link that works for Mac OSX also ? I was
> > greeted with a "missing plugin" welcome.
Mark wrote:
> I'll see what I can do. My online file conversion program is ill-
> equipped to deal with converting a 155Mb wmv file :(. I'll see if
> someone from qilang can convert this file and mirror the result.
gosh Mark, for someone of your status, you seem ill informed and
equipped. What's with not knowing how to get a sound file into OS X
format on webpage? what's with broken links on webpage? What's with
your recent cluelessness in installing linux? and what's with still
using some 5 years old computer hardware?
is mopping McDonald's toilet your day job? It seems to me, that's the
day job for great many thinkers and philosophers.
to convert a sound file from wmv to mp3, it is so easy. Itune can
probably do it. All you have to do is pull a menu.
to check broken local links on your site is easy too. I'm sure there
are plenty of software app or perl/python etc script to do it. I
personally have used my own for the past 10+ years. Here:
http://xahlee.org/xxst/validate/check_local_links.pl
(this is not a public link, so the url may be bad in a month or so)
btw, what's with the uncompressed wmv file? mp3 will reduce the size
to some 1% to 10% of original. If your audio is human speech, you can
reduce your 155MB file to perhaps 10MB with almost indecernable
difference.
Why not mp3? This is not some science research audio recording that
cannot be lossy is it? For a good majority of your potential
audiences, 155 megabytes file stops them dead.
The Kenny character, seems to have recently realized his poverty in
web know how and extremely poor web presentation of his lisp products.
Rumor has it that he's taking javascript into his own hands now.
you guys need to learn something say from Clojure's web presentation.
http://clojure.com/
Now that's presentable website.
the clojure web design is by his brother Tom Hickey. So, maybe you can
ask him for a deal. (on the other hand, with what little skill i have,
could help you out in the web department a bit too)
or, checkout NewLisp
http://www.newlisp.org/
-----------------------
more broadly speaking, i observed that many lisp geeker's websites are
the most stupid, clunky, ugly, unusable sites that are out there. (in
general this is true of many tech geeker's website) Most are just a
glorified ascii writeup slapped into html. LOL.
I just woke up and is energetic and have nothing to do. Let me detail
a bit.
• Common Lisp Implementations: A Survey
by Daniel Weinreb
http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html
this is typical with several major problems. You see its 15 thousands
words of text slapped onto one single html page.
For some detailed criticism by me, see:
From: Xah Lee
Date: 28 Dec 2007
Subject: Re: Version 3 of Common Lisp Implementations: A Survey
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d0c1ba32e21583f1
• Common Lisp Documentation, e.g.
http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_lambda.htm
Now that's what? A view to the web 1995! LOL.
No syntax coloring, lines run to window's edge to edge, no bold
chapter and subsections. Space hogging header image and logo. Stupid
and misleading munching of images as nav bar at the bottom.
• Erdx
http://angg.twu.net/emacs.html
Another thousands of pages slapped onto one!
Check out the dense emacs tutorial with massive number of links.
Check out the painstakingly aquired taste of ascii art!
Check out the one-thousand-topics-in-one-page organization.
did you know that web stats says that when a reader comes to your page
and you have 5 seconds to convince them to stay?
And most of all, if you pass tech geeker's webpages into HTML
validator, they ALL lights up like a neon sign!
Now, look at some examples of good design, yet simple in style:
• Xah's Emacs Lisp Tutorial
http://xahlee.org/emacs/elisp.html
• GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual
http://xahlee.org/elisp/index.html
And, each and every page is valid HTML too! With proper semantic use
of html/css, that'll even pass those html/css tech geekers.
See also:
• Texinfo Problems
http://xahlee.org/emacs/texinfo_problems.html
For some good guidlines in web design and web tech usage, see:
Google webmaster guidlines.
http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=35769
Really, read it up. I endose that document.
PS O Mark, put the Qi logo on http://www.lambdassociates.org/
• Qi Language Logo
http://xahlee.org/emacs/qi_logo.html
and when you cite url esp of your own in posts, add the “http://”, not
just “www.lambdassociates.org”.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
On 28 Nov, 12:58, Xah Lee <······@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 27, 7:09 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 27 Nov, 23:44, Brian Adkins <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >www.lambdassociates.org
> > > > A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
> > > > 155Mb, so you do need cable.
> > The page that should contain the audio file is broken (code points to
> > local media file C:\somewhere\)
> > > Would you care to post a link that works for Mac OSX also ? I was
> > > greeted with a "missing plugin" welcome.
> Mark wrote:
> > I'll see what I can do. My online file conversion program is ill-
> > equipped to deal with converting a 155Mb wmv file :(. I'll see if
> > someone from qilang can convert this file and mirror the result.
>
> gosh Mark, for someone of your status, you seem ill informed and
> equipped. What's with not knowing how to get a sound file into OS X
> format on webpage? what's with broken links on webpage? What's with
> your recent cluelessness in installing linux? and what's with still
> using some 5 years old computer hardware?
>
> is mopping McDonald's toilet your day job? It seems to me, that's the
> day job for great many thinkers and philosophers.
>
> to convert a sound file from wmv to mp3, it is so easy. Itune can
> probably do it. All you have to do is pull a menu.
>
> to check broken local links on your site is easy too. I'm sure there
> are plenty of software app or perl/python etc script to do it. I
> personally have used my own for the past 10+ years. Here:http://xahlee.org/xxst/validate/check_local_links.pl
> (this is not a public link, so the url may be bad in a month or so)
>
> btw, what's with the uncompressed wmv file? mp3 will reduce the size
> to some 1% to 10% of original. If your audio is human speech, you can
> reduce your 155MB file to perhaps 10MB with almost indecernable
> difference.
>
> Why not mp3? This is not some science research audio recording that
> cannot be lossy is it? For a good majority of your potential
> audiences, 155 megabytes file stops them dead.
>
> The Kenny character, seems to have recently realized his poverty in
> web know how and extremely poor web presentation of his lisp products.
> Rumor has it that he's taking javascript into his own hands now.
>
> you guys need to learn something say from Clojure's web presentation.
>
> http://clojure.com/
>
> Now that's presentable website.
>
> the clojure web design is by his brother Tom Hickey. So, maybe you can
> ask him for a deal. (on the other hand, with what little skill i have,
> could help you out in the web department a bit too)
>
> or, checkout NewLisphttp://www.newlisp.org/
>
> -----------------------
>
> more broadly speaking, i observed that many lisp geeker's websites are
> the most stupid, clunky, ugly, unusable sites that are out there. (in
> general this is true of many tech geeker's website) Most are just a
> glorified ascii writeup slapped into html. LOL.
>
> I just woke up and is energetic and have nothing to do. Let me detail
> a bit.
>
> • Common Lisp Implementations: A Survey
> by Daniel Weinrebhttp://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html
>
> this is typical with several major problems. You see its 15 thousands
> words of text slapped onto one single html page.
>
> For some detailed criticism by me, see:
> From: Xah Lee
> Date: 28 Dec 2007
> Subject: Re: Version 3 of Common Lisp Implementations: A Surveyhttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d0c1ba32e21583f1
>
> • Common Lisp Documentation, e.g.http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_lambda.htm
>
> Now that's what? A view to the web 1995! LOL.
> No syntax coloring, lines run to window's edge to edge, no bold
> chapter and subsections. Space hogging header image and logo. Stupid
> and misleading munching of images as nav bar at the bottom.
>
> • Erdxhttp://angg.twu.net/emacs.html
> Another thousands of pages slapped onto one!
> Check out the dense emacs tutorial with massive number of links.
> Check out the painstakingly aquired taste of ascii art!
> Check out the one-thousand-topics-in-one-page organization.
>
> did you know that web stats says that when a reader comes to your page
> and you have 5 seconds to convince them to stay?
>
> And most of all, if you pass tech geeker's webpages into HTML
> validator, they ALL lights up like a neon sign!
>
> Now, look at some examples of good design, yet simple in style:
>
> • Xah's Emacs Lisp Tutorial
> http://xahlee.org/emacs/elisp.html
>
> • GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual
> http://xahlee.org/elisp/index.html
>
> And, each and every page is valid HTML too! With proper semantic use
> of html/css, that'll even pass those html/css tech geekers.
>
> See also:
>
> • Texinfo Problems
> http://xahlee.org/emacs/texinfo_problems.html
>
> For some good guidlines in web design and web tech usage, see:
>
> Google webmaster guidlines.http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=3...
>
> Really, read it up. I endose that document.
>
> PS O Mark, put the Qi logo onhttp://www.lambdassociates.org/
>
> • Qi Language Logo
> http://xahlee.org/emacs/qi_logo.html
>
> and when you cite url esp of your own in posts, add the “http://”, not
> just “www.lambdassociates.org”.
>
> Xah
> ∑http://xahlee.org/
>
> ☄
I'm not going to reply to all of this.
*Bottom line is that all this busy work eats into my free time and, as
you get older, you will find that time is a resource that you have
less and less of.* Linux is a time eater and that's why I don't like
it. I'd rather spend my time learning Jin Gang Quan which is
ancient, very beautiful and highly useful than buried in some buggy
and soon-to-be-thrown away implementation of Linux.
The multiplicity of file formats and OSes is always a headache. Yes,
I can run in circles trying to ascertain whether version X runs under
platform Y. Like it or not, the majority of desktops run Windows and
thats where I work from. I think if you choose to work from a minority
OS you have to accept the consequences of your choice and recognise
that sometimes things which work smoothly for others might pose a
problem for you. This is not anybody's fault specifically, it just
means accepting the consequences of your decisions and deciding how to
spend your time.
Mark
> > The Kenny character, seems to have recently realized his poverty in
> > web know how and extremely poor web presentation of his lisp products.
> > Rumor has it that he's taking javascript into his own hands now.
Actually I thought Kenny's Theory Y algebra site looked pretty good.
Mark
Xah wrote:
> > For some good guidlines in web design and web tech usage, see:
> > Google webmaster guidlines
> > http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=35769
On Nov 28, 6:20 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm not going to reply to all of this.
>
> *Bottom line is that all this busy work eats into my free time and, as
> you get older, you will find that time is a resource that you have
> less and less of.* Linux is a time eater and that's why I don't like
> it. I'd rather spend my time learning Jin Gang Quan which is
> ancient, very beautiful and highly useful than buried in some buggy
> and soon-to-be-thrown away implementation of Linux.
Woot! Jin Gang Quan!! For those tech geekers here who are Chinese
illiterate, Jin Gang Quan is 金钢拳, meaning roughly Iron Buddha Kungfu,
or more literally golden Metal Fist. (actually, King Kong Fist would
be a fine translation too! LOL.)
Not sure Mark is joking when he said he's learning it or it's highly
useful. Jin Gang Quan is something you read about in kungfu history
books in Chinese. I doubt there are any living people who actually
knew what is is.
for those curious, you can see it reference here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Haichuan
Dong is the founder of Ba qua zhang, meaning eight-trigram-palm, which
is a taoist school of kungfu, and there are still practioners and can
often be seen in movies and video games.
You can see the 8 trigrams in unicode. 4 of them can also be seen in
South Korean flag.
> The multiplicity of file formats and OSes is always a headache. Yes,
> I can run in circles trying to ascertain whether version X runs under
> platform Y. Like it or not, the majority of desktops run Windows and
> thats where I work from. I think if you choose to work from a minority
> OS you have to accept the consequences of your choice and recognise
> that sometimes things which work smoothly for others might pose a
> problem for you. This is not anybody's fault specifically, it just
> means accepting the consequences of your decisions and deciding how to
> spend your time.
Indeed!
The joke is, who's gonna learn sequent calculus? lol. (nvm, it's just
a joke)
And, we have the lisp dignitary Peter Norvig who tells us that we
should not read “xyz in a week” books and should take 10 years to
learn a lang. See:
• The Condition of Industrial Programers
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/it_programers.html
Seems the ideals of tech geekers are reality incompatible.
-------------------------------------
The Condition of Industrial Programers
Xah Lee, 2006-05
Before i stepped into the computing industry, my first industrial
programing experience was at Wolfram Research Inc as a intern in 1995.
(Wolfram Research is famously known for their highly successful
flagship product Mathematica) I thought, that the programers at
Wolfram are the world's top mathematicians, gathered together to
research and decide and write a extremely advanced technology. But i
realized it is not so. Not at all. In fact, we might say it's just a
bunch of Ph Ds (or equivalent experience). The people there, are not
unlike average white-collar Joes. Each working individually. And,
fights and bouts of arguments between co-workers are not uncommon.
Sometimes downright ugly in emails. Almost nothing is as i naively
imagined, as if some world's top mathematicians are gathered together
there, daily to confer and solve the world's top problems as in some
top secret government agency depicted in movies.
Well, that was my introduction to the industry. The bulk of my
surprise is due to my naiveness and inexperience of the industry, of
any industry, as i was just a intern and this is my first experience
seeing how the real world works.
After Wolfram, after a couple of years i went into the web programing
industry in 1998, using unix, Perl, Apache, Java, database
technologies, in the center of world's software technology the Silicon
Valley. My evaluation of industrial programers and how software are
written is a precipitous fall from my observations at Wolfram. In the
so-called Info Tech industry, the vast majority of programers are
poorly qualified. I learned this from my colleagues, and in dealing
with programers from other companies, service providers, data centers,
sys admins, API gateways, and duties of field tutoring. I didn't think
i have very qualified expertise in what i do, but the reality i
realized is that most are far lesser than me, and that is the common
situation. That they have no understanding of basic mathematics such
as trigonometry or calculus. Most have no interest in math whatsoever,
and would be hard pressed for them to explain what is a “algorithm”.
I have always thought, that programing X software of field Y usually
means that the programers are thoroughly fluent in languages,
protocols, tools of X, and also being a top expert in field of Y. But
to my great surprise, the fact is that that is almost never the case.
In fact, most of the time the programers simply just had to learn a
language, protocol, software tool, right at the moment as he is trying
to implement a software for a field he never had experience in. I
myself had to do jobs half of the time i've never done before.
Constantly I'm learning new languages, protocols, systems, tools,
APIs, other rising practices and technologies, reading semi-written or
delve into non-existent docs. It is the norm in the IT industry, that
most products are really produces of learning experiences. Extremely
hurried grasping of new technologies in competition with deadlines.
There is in fact little actual learning going on, as there are immense
pressure to simply “get it to (demonstrably) work” and ship it.
Thinking back, in fact the Wolfram people are the most knowledgeable
and inquisitive people i've met as colleagues, by far.
What prompted me to write this essay is after reading the essay Teach
Yourself Programming in Ten Years by Peter Norvig, 2001, at
http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html. In which, the LISP dignitary Peter
Norvig↗ derides the widely popular computing books in the name of
Teaching Yourself X In (Fast) Days. Although i agree with his
sentiment that a language or technology takes time to master and use
well, that these books form somewhat of a damaging fad and subtly
multiply ignorance, but he fails to address the main point, that is:
the cause of the popularity of such books, and how to remedy the
situation.
When you work in the industry, and are given a responsibility of
coding in some new language the company decided to use, or emerging
protocol (such as voice-chat protocols or cellphone internet), or your
engineering group adopted a new team coding/reviewing process, you are
not going to tell you boss “nah, i want to do a good job so i'll study
the issue a few months before i contribute”. Chances are, you are
going to run out and buy a copy of “XYZ in 7 days”, and complete the
job in a way satisfactorily to your company, as well feeling proud of
your abilities in acquiring new material.
To see this in a different context, suppose you need to pass a
important Math XYZ exam or review in your career or get a certificate,
but you don't remember your Math XYZ. You will likely, run out and get
a “Math XYZ for Dummies”. Chances are, the book will indeed help you,
and you will pass your exam or interview, and actually have learned
something about XYZ, but never looked at Math XYZ squarely again.
These books are the bedrock of the industry. It is not because people
are impatient, or that they wish to hurry, but rather, it is the
condition of the IT industry, in the same way modern society drives
people to live certain life styles. No amount of patience or
proselytization can right this, except that we change the industry's
practice of quickly churning out bug-ridden software products to beat
competitors. Companies do that due to market forces, and the market
forces is a result of how people and organizations actually choose to
purchase software. In my opinion, a solution to this is by installing
the concept of responsible licenses. Please see this essay Responsible
Software Licensing and spread the word.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
> Woot! Jin Gang Quan!! For those tech geekers here who are Chinese
> illiterate, Jin Gang Quan is ½ð¸ÖÈ, meaning roughly Iron Buddha Kungfu,
> or more literally golden Metal Fist. (actually, King Kong Fist would
> be a fine translation too! LOL.)
>
> Not sure Mark is joking when he said he's learning it or it's highly
> useful. Jin Gang Quan is something you read about in kungfu history
> books in Chinese. I doubt there are any living people who actually
> knew what is is.
Jin Gang Quan is an extremely powerful means of cultivation of the
physical body.
It's well worth learning for its effect on the tendons and meridians.
Sometimes translated as 'Diamond Fist' and is also linked to the
concept of a Diamond Body which it does in truth build. I will
testify that its more than worth you learning it if you can find a
teacher.
>
> for those curious, you can see it reference here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Haichuan
> Dong is the founder of Ba qua zhang, meaning eight-trigram-palm, which
> is a taoist school of kungfu, and there are still practioners and can
> often be seen in movies and video games.
Also excellent in its effects on the governing and conception vessels.
> The joke is, who's gonna learn sequent calculus? lol. (nvm, it's just
> a joke)
No offence taken. But if you want an answer, I'd say 'Because it been
around for 60 years and its still being used'.
Mark
QUOTE
I learned this from my colleagues, and in dealing
with programers from other companies, service providers, data
centers,
sys admins, API gateways, and duties of field tutoring. I didn't
think
i have very qualified expertise in what i do, but the reality i
realized is that most are far lesser than me, and that is the common
situation. That they have no understanding of basic mathematics such
as trigonometry or calculus. Most have no interest in math
whatsoever,
and would be hard pressed for them to explain what is a “algorithm”.
UNQUOTE
Actually a lot of this stuff is disappearing from UK CS courses. A
lot of programming is what Slobodan refers to as boilerplate - not
technically or math'lly demanding and requiring a factual grasp of IT
conventions and not a deep understanding of CS.
An anecdote: one week ago I met a guy who told me he had just been
laid off 15 minutes ago along with 18 of his co-workers. He was a
programmer and was browsing Border's with me. I got on to asking him
about the state of the UK video game industry and he told me it was
declining. A lot of graduates were coming out with Java and frankly
their maths and physics wasn't up to speed. What was needed by people
like Sony, he said, were maths/physics savvy people with C++ skills
and the UK was not producing them.
Now this was an industry which until recently, the UK had a commanding
presence. So we're heading into a recession with a declining skills
base where the real workers are coming from China and India and the
Western students are too often not competitive because their
scientific education is degraded. I don't see the West as maintaining
its technological dominance of the last 300 years. I also see some
very dark clouds ahead.
Mark
On Nov 28, 1:15 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> QUOTE
> I learned this from my colleagues, and in dealing
> with programers from other companies, service providers, data
> centers,
> sys admins, API gateways, and duties of field tutoring. I didn't
> think
> i have very qualified expertise in what i do, but the reality i
> realized is that most are far lesser than me, and that is the common
> situation. That they have no understanding of basic mathematics such
> as trigonometry or calculus. Most have no interest in math
> whatsoever,
> and would be hard pressed for them to explain what is a “algorithm”.
> UNQUOTE
>
> Actually a lot of this stuff is disappearing from UK CS courses. A
> lot of programming is what Slobodan refers to as boilerplate - not
> technically or math'lly demanding and requiring a factual grasp of IT
> conventions and not a deep understanding of CS.
The reasons for the current state of affairs are fairly complex, but
in context of this gathering (c.l.l.) there are a few points worth
considering:
There is a huge disconnect between the ivory tower of Computer
Scientists and the vocational practitioners. The bulk of "IT"
programming is, factually and sadly, boiler plate. The precise reason
for that, as far as I have been able to determine, is that computer
science, as a discipline, has failed to solve the (very difficult)
problem(s) that face the (business) software practitioner. On one
hand, we have (at this point) requirements for ubiquitous information
processing systems, from toasters to governments. On the other hand,
we have a "science" that being very generous is at best an arts and
crafts discipline. (Open source => Guilds).
Why is there boiler plate?
Because no one from academia has managed to articulate a practical
path for the practitioner in the manner that has been accomplished for
mechanical, electrical, chemical, civil, ..., disciplines. The boiler
plate is because it is apparently either more appealing (or perhaps
easier?) to produce yet another dissertation on data structure
manipulations (or invent another variant on lisp) than to devise a
methodology for mapping the open ended set of domain semantics to the
(asserted) closed set of information processing architectures. Boiler
plate is a by product of what the best *practitioners* devise to
tackle this real world problem: frameworks. (There are as many
variants on the MVC in framework land as there are on lisp in language
land.)
And why aren't the kiddies learning math and physics?
Because the paying jobs are (were ..) in the business end of IT, and
believe it or not, managing the complexity (of the silly but present
minutia) of assembling business systems requires the brain power of a
higher percentile set. (Not the top, but still, dummies need not
apply.) Most of the best programmers I have worked with over the
years have been engineers or physicists who had jumped the boat to
"professional" programming. Certainly none of them utilized their
advanced knowledge of quantum mechanics or number theory to solve the
problems at hand. But their inherent mental agility and acuity did in
fact serve them quite well. Why? Because, believe it or not, the
problem domain is hard, for a variety of reasons. (And no:
"elegance" and "conciseness" are not necessarily helpful in context.)
The challenge to CS academics is to solve this problem. We don't
really need another language. Doing quicksort in two lines is indeed
fine, but that is not the problem that the practitioner is facing.
The problem is: how do we develop a system that is in essence the
CRUD pattern but which must be mapped to a domain that is either
subtly or substantially unique, in a barely sufficient time frame with
a highly uneven talent pool?
Boiler plate, regrettably, is the best solution at the moment. CS
academics design languages; IT stars design frameworks.
>
> An anecdote: one week ago I met a guy who told me he had just been
> laid off 15 minutes ago along with 18 of his co-workers. He was a
> programmer and was browsing Border's with me. I got on to asking him
> about the state of the UK video game industry and he told me it was
> declining. A lot of graduates were coming out with Java and frankly
> their maths and physics wasn't up to speed. What was needed by people
> like Sony, he said, were maths/physics savvy people with C++ skills
> and the UK was not producing them.
>
> Now this was an industry which until recently, the UK had a commanding
> presence. So we're heading into a recession with a declining skills
> base where the real workers are coming from China and India and the
> Western students are too often not competitive because their
> scientific education is degraded. I don't see the West as maintaining
> its technological dominance of the last 300 years. I also see some
> very dark clouds ahead.
This is obviously necessary, if you are willing to shift your point of
view. If you are sitting on the top of the pyramid of the
international oligarch system, having wild disparity between West and
East is hardly desirable. (For a national of the West, in your case
UK, that would be an advantage ..) So clearly the strategic decision
to dumb down the education in the West (an undeniable fact) while
promoting educational excellent in the East, is a good way to address
the disparities, and over time build up a fairly uniform global cadre
of (just barely enough) educated workers to work the global
plantation. (Rest assured that as soon as the East has been yanked
forward from its historic rut, you will not be seeing hyper educated
Chinese, Indians, etc. Too much education is not really a desired
quality in workers, regardless of your coordinates.)
>
> Mark
/R
From: Brian Adkins
Subject: Re: Lisp for the Twenty First Century: audio talk
Date:
Message-ID: <m2tz9r7n24.fsf@gmail.com>
Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> [...]
> The multiplicity of file formats and OSes is always a headache. Yes,
> I can run in circles trying to ascertain whether version X runs under
> platform Y. Like it or not, the majority of desktops run Windows and
> thats where I work from. I think if you choose to work from a minority
> OS you have to accept the consequences of your choice and recognise
> that sometimes things which work smoothly for others might pose a
> problem for you.
> [...]
I agree re: minority OS consequences; however, you might be surprised
at the percentage of tech users who are choosing OSX these days. I
expect it has to do with the combination of the power/flexibility of
Unix w/ a very pretty front end and a fair amount of easily
installable (e.g. drag 'n drop) software.
With respect to audio files, there are a handful of formats that work
quite nicely on Windows, OSX & Linux. For video, Flash seems to
rule. For audio, MP3 works quite nicely.
--
Brian Adkins
http://www.lojic.com/
http://lojic.com/blog/
From: Raymond Wiker
Subject: Re: Lisp for the Twenty First Century: audio talk
Date:
Message-ID: <m2prkfiwsm.fsf@RAWMBP.local>
Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> I'm not going to reply to all of this.
You'd do well to simply ignore Xah's posts... it's not as if
you're going to lose out on either techical or literary quality by
killfiling him.
On 27 Nov, 23:44, Brian Adkins <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> > An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
> > Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>
> >www.lambdassociates.org
>
> > This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
> > Cyprus. *I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
> > possible*. Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
>
> > A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
> > 155Mb, so you do need cable.
>
> Would you care to post a link that works for Mac OSX also ? I was
> greeted with a "missing plugin" welcome.
>
> --
> Brian Adkinshttp://www.lojic.com/http://lojic.com/blog/
Realplayer plays this audio fine on my XP machine. A Linux version is
available from
http://www.real.com/linux
And an OSX version at
http://forms.real.com/real/player/blackjack.html?platform2=Mac%20OS%20X&product=RealPlayer%2010&proc=g3&lang=&show_list=0&src=macjack
I've not downloaded either of these btw.
Mark
From: Brian Adkins
Subject: Re: Lisp for the Twenty First Century: audio talk
Date:
Message-ID: <m23ahc8p3v.fsf@gmail.com>
Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> On 27 Nov, 23:44, Brian Adkins <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
>> > An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
>> > Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>>
>> >www.lambdassociates.org
>>
>> > This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
>> > Cyprus. �*I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
>> > possible*. �Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
>>
>> > A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
>> > 155Mb, so you do need cable.
>>
>> Would you care to post a link that works for Mac OSX also ? I was
>> greeted with a "missing plugin" welcome.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Adkinshttp://www.lojic.com/http://lojic.com/blog/
>
> Realplayer plays this audio fine on my XP machine. A Linux version is
> available from
>
> http://www.real.com/linux
>
> And an OSX version at
>
> http://forms.real.com/real/player/blackjack.html?platform2=Mac%20OS%20X&product=RealPlayer%2010&proc=g3&lang=&show_list=0&src=macjack
>
> I've not downloaded either of these btw.
>
> Mark
Thanks for taking the time to provide that info, but there is *no* way
I'd ever install RealPlayer again on any computer :) I consider it a
legal trojan, and once it gets its hooks into your system, it's pretty
hard to get rid of.
mp3, mp4, ogg, etc. would be good, but if it's difficult to convert
the format, I certainly understand you skipping it.
--
Brian Adkins
http://www.lojic.com/
http://lojic.com/blog/
On Nov 27, 8:13 pm, Brian Adkins <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for taking the time to provide that info, but there is *no* way
> I'd ever install RealPlayer again on any computer :) I consider it a
> legal trojan, and once it gets its hooks into your system, it's pretty
> hard to get rid of.
yeah, nor i will use RealPlayer, unless it's some porn i absolutely
must see.
> mp3, mp4, ogg, etc. would be good, but if it's difficult to convert
> the format, I certainly understand you skipping it.
Nah, it's not so much of a decision of skipping. It's completele
cluelessness of the web.
you can read much of the popular perception and criticism of
RealPlayer in Wikipedia.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
From: Maciej Pasternacki
Subject: Re: Lisp for the Twenty First Century: audio talk
Date:
Message-ID: <ggn1e4$sgt$1@news.task.gda.pl>
On 2008-11-27 20:10:54 +0100, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> said:
> An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
> Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>
> www.lambdassociates.org
The page that should contain the audio file is broken (code points to
local media file C:\somewhere\) and wouldn't work on non-Windows
systems anyway. I managed to download the file by substituting .htm
extension to .wmv (don't know yet if it plays, still downloading).
Regards,
Maciej
--
Maciej Pasternacki -><- http://www.pasternacki.net/ -><-
http://www.3ofcoins.net/
On 27 Nov, 20:54, Maciej Pasternacki <·····@zenbe.com> wrote:
> On 2008-11-27 20:10:54 +0100, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> said:
>
> > An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
> > Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>
> >www.lambdassociates.org
>
> The page that should contain the audio file is broken (code points to
> local media file C:\somewhere\) and wouldn't work on non-Windows
> systems anyway. I managed to download the file by substituting .htm
> extension to .wmv (don't know yet if it plays, still downloading).
>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
> --
> Maciej Pasternacki -><-http://www.pasternacki.net/-><-http://www.3ofcoins.net/
Sorry about that - try again, should be audible now. Tell me if its
ok.
Mark
From: D Herring
Subject: Re: Lisp for the Twenty First Century: audio talk
Date:
Message-ID: <ggo7mm$db9$1@aioe.org>
Mark Tarver wrote:
> An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
> Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>
> www.lambdassociates.org
>
> This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
> Cyprus. *I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
> possible*. Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
>
> A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
> 155Mb, so you do need cable.
On linux, I use mplayer (with the gmplayer frontend). One other
systems, VLC seems like a good alternative to ·@#$Player.
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
Alternatively, I uploaded a flash version to
http://tentpost.com/l21.html
which is a viewer for the raw file at
http://tentpost.com/l21.flv [258 MB]
The conversion caused noticeable degradation in the video quality, but
everything is still quite readable.
- Daniel
From: Brian Adkins
Subject: Re: Lisp for the Twenty First Century: audio talk
Date:
Message-ID: <m2y6z37o4o.fsf@gmail.com>
D Herring <········@at.tentpost.dot.com> writes:
> Mark Tarver wrote:
>> An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
>> Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>>
>> www.lambdassociates.org
>>
>> This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
>> Cyprus. *I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
>> possible*. Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
>>
>> A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
>> 155Mb, so you do need cable.
>
> On linux, I use mplayer (with the gmplayer frontend). One other
> systems, VLC seems like a good alternative to ·@#$Player.
> http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
>
>
> Alternatively, I uploaded a flash version to
> http://tentpost.com/l21.html
Great - the flash version works fine on the Mac. Thanks.
> which is a viewer for the raw file at
> http://tentpost.com/l21.flv [258 MB]
>
> The conversion caused noticeable degradation in the video quality, but
> everything is still quite readable.
>
> - Daniel
--
Brian Adkins
http://www.lojic.com/
http://lojic.com/blog/
On Nov 27, 8:10 pm, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> An audio of 'Lisp for the Twenty First Century' can be heard at Lambda
> Associates by clicking on the link on the index page.
>
> www.lambdassociates.org
>
> This is a postrecording of a talk that was first given this summer in
> Cyprus. *I'd like to thank Didier Verna for making this talk
> possible*. Support was also provided by LispWorks, Franz and the ALU.
>
> A word of warning; this is a high quality audio recording of about
> 155Mb, so you do need cable.
>
> best wishes
>
> Mark
Thanks for sharing, the part about lisp not having a home was
especially interesting. Anyway I'm little bit doubtful about all those
performance and productivity promises. In the commercial world I work
coding algorithms is 0.002% of what we do. Most of the time is
actually moving data here and there with some GUI( now web UI), so the
most needed feature that I currently wish for are macros, to get rid
of the stupid boilerplate that swallows everything. All the rest is
nice, like pattern matching, partial evaluation, type inference but
not essential.
bobi