I'm (reasonably) new to this Lisp thing (but not to programming, I
should point out).
After mulling around with the thought of producing a groovy new
library for GUI construction I thought a better idea would be to help
with a current project. Then again, after assessing my current Lisp
skills, any programming input I give probably wouldn't be of much use
either.
So I thought I'd put some serious effort into creating a decent set of
documentation for some library of Lisp, complete with tutorials,
FAQ's, the lot.
This would of course mean asking a bunch of questions to the author(s)
of such a lib. Luckily I do have some abilities, you won't need to
completely hold my hand. And I won't try to be annoying on purpose.
So, does anyone on this list either have any suggestions as to what
lib to cover (I'd prefer to document a GUI lib, since all I get from
Lisp newbies is 'the GUI libs suck')? Or better still, are you a
programmer that would like to see your library completely documented?
I'd post on Lisp Gardeners normally but that group is severely low
volume. I'm hoping for some better comments from you lot.
Love, peace and Emacs
maximinus wrote:
> I'm (reasonably) new to this Lisp thing (but not to programming, I
> should point out).
>
> After mulling around with the thought of producing a groovy new
> library for GUI construction I thought a better idea would be to help
> with a current project. Then again, after assessing my current Lisp
> skills, any programming input I give probably wouldn't be of much use
> either.
>
> So I thought I'd put some serious effort into creating a decent set of
> documentation for some library of Lisp, complete with tutorials,
> FAQ's, the lot.
>
> This would of course mean asking a bunch of questions to the author(s)
> of such a lib. Luckily I do have some abilities, you won't need to
> completely hold my hand. And I won't try to be annoying on purpose.
>
> So, does anyone on this list either have any suggestions as to what
> lib to cover (I'd prefer to document a GUI lib, since all I get from
> Lisp newbies is 'the GUI libs suck')? Or better still, are you a
> programmer that would like to see your library completely documented?
GUIs: Cells-Gtk, Celtk, and Cello in increasing order of both power and
need of documentation -- I cannot even give you meaningful links to the
last two except for their CVS repositories on c-l.net.
Libraries: Cells, which happens also to document each of the above three
GUIs.
Cells-Gtk actually has presentable doc (and GTk doc itself applies).
That said, Peter Hildebrandt has done a ton on, with, for, and to
Cells-Gtk lately so...?
Check my beach rant to see why Cello is the True Lisp Way of GUIs. You
might decide which GUI you like best for yourself and document that.
kt
--
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
ECLM rant:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1331906677993764413&hl=en
ECLM talk:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9173722505157942928&q=&hl=en
From: Frank "frgo" a.k.a DG1SBG
Subject: Re: Looking for a documentation project
Date:
Message-ID: <lzskvm34bo.fsf@goenninger.net>
Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> writes:
> maximinus wrote:
>> I'm (reasonably) new to this Lisp thing (but not to programming, I
>> should point out).
>>
>> After mulling around with the thought of producing a groovy new
>> library for GUI construction I thought a better idea would be to help
>> with a current project. Then again, after assessing my current Lisp
>> skills, any programming input I give probably wouldn't be of much use
>> either.
>>
>> So I thought I'd put some serious effort into creating a decent set of
>> documentation for some library of Lisp, complete with tutorials,
>> FAQ's, the lot.
>>
>> This would of course mean asking a bunch of questions to the author(s)
>> of such a lib. Luckily I do have some abilities, you won't need to
>> completely hold my hand. And I won't try to be annoying on purpose.
>>
>> So, does anyone on this list either have any suggestions as to what
>> lib to cover (I'd prefer to document a GUI lib, since all I get from
>> Lisp newbies is 'the GUI libs suck')? Or better still, are you a
>> programmer that would like to see your library completely documented?
>
> GUIs: Cells-Gtk, Celtk, and Cello in increasing order of both power
> and need of documentation -- I cannot even give you meaningful links
> to the last two except for their CVS repositories on c-l.net.
>
> Libraries: Cells, which happens also to document each of the above
> three GUIs.
>
> Cells-Gtk actually has presentable doc (and GTk doc itself
> applies). That said, Peter Hildebrandt has done a ton on, with, for,
> and to Cells-Gtk lately so...?
>
> Check my beach rant to see why Cello is the True Lisp Way of GUIs. You
> might decide which GUI you like best for yourself and document that.
>
> kt
Let that GUI lib you're documentin be Cello! This, along with a good
FAQ, will give you two things: a) A very good learing experience on
all things Lisp and b) for us all a real good documentation. That
should help in caliming down some of those "I can't trust that library
because there is no documentation available." comments.
Cello! Cello! Cello! - That's my vote.
Frank
Frank "frgo" a.k.a DG1SBG wrote:
> Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> writes:
>
>
>>maximinus wrote:
>>
>>>I'm (reasonably) new to this Lisp thing (but not to programming, I
>>>should point out).
>>>
>>>After mulling around with the thought of producing a groovy new
>>>library for GUI construction I thought a better idea would be to help
>>>with a current project. Then again, after assessing my current Lisp
>>>skills, any programming input I give probably wouldn't be of much use
>>>either.
>>>
>>>So I thought I'd put some serious effort into creating a decent set of
>>>documentation for some library of Lisp, complete with tutorials,
>>>FAQ's, the lot.
>>>
>>>This would of course mean asking a bunch of questions to the author(s)
>>>of such a lib. Luckily I do have some abilities, you won't need to
>>>completely hold my hand. And I won't try to be annoying on purpose.
>>>
>>>So, does anyone on this list either have any suggestions as to what
>>>lib to cover (I'd prefer to document a GUI lib, since all I get from
>>>Lisp newbies is 'the GUI libs suck')? Or better still, are you a
>>>programmer that would like to see your library completely documented?
>>
>>GUIs: Cells-Gtk, Celtk, and Cello in increasing order of both power
>>and need of documentation -- I cannot even give you meaningful links
>>to the last two except for their CVS repositories on c-l.net.
>>
>>Libraries: Cells, which happens also to document each of the above
>>three GUIs.
>>
>>Cells-Gtk actually has presentable doc (and GTk doc itself
>>applies). That said, Peter Hildebrandt has done a ton on, with, for,
>>and to Cells-Gtk lately so...?
>>
>>Check my beach rant to see why Cello is the True Lisp Way of GUIs. You
>>might decide which GUI you like best for yourself and document that.
>>
>>kt
>
>
> Let that GUI lib you're documentin be Cello! This, along with a good
> FAQ, will give you two things: a) A very good learing experience on
> all things Lisp and b) for us all a real good documentation. That
> should help in caliming down some of those "I can't trust that library
> because there is no documentation available." comments.
I think it was because the code is so frightening, and even after
cleaning out all the test and debug code I have to agree. The quality of
Cells must exist at some other level of abstraction, the code is all
duct tape and bailing wire. :)
>
> Cello! Cello! Cello! - That's my vote.
>
The nice thing about documenting Cello, if one follows my beach rant, is
that it is not huge like your usual GUI, it is more like Lego blocks.
kt
--
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
ECLM rant:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1331906677993764413&hl=en
ECLM talk:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9173722505157942928&q=&hl=en
Ken Tilton wrote:
>> So, does anyone on this list either have any suggestions as to what
>> lib to cover (I'd prefer to document a GUI lib, since all I get from
>> Lisp newbies is 'the GUI libs suck')? Or better still, are you a
>> programmer that would like to see your library completely documented?
First of all: Congrats! You are the first poster here pointing out the
problem /and offering a solution/ :-)
> GUIs: Cells-Gtk, Celtk, and Cello in increasing order of both power and
> need of documentation -- I cannot even give you meaningful links to the
> last two except for their CVS repositories on c-l.net.
I dunno whether Celtk really has more power than cells-gtk. But then,
how do you define "power" in terms of GUI toolkits? I like Gtk's choice
of widgets better than Tcl/Tk's.
> Libraries: Cells, which happens also to document each of the above three
> GUIs.
That'd be a rewarding effort and would probably help you understand the
power of all the cells-driven GUI toolkits. But then, once you
understand cells, you'll be off rolling your own GUI toolkit anyway ...
> Cells-Gtk actually has presentable doc (and GTk doc itself applies).
> That said, Peter Hildebrandt has done a ton on, with, for, and to
> Cells-Gtk lately so...?
And so -- of course -- that'd be my vote. I am currently working on
putting together a getting started for sbcl/linux:
http://common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/cgtk3-start.html
Cells-Gtk features a nice sample application demonstrating most of its
widgets, so one can learn by doing. Of course, this app is hardly
documented ;-)
> Check my beach rant to see why Cello is the True Lisp Way of GUIs. You
> might decide which GUI you like best for yourself and document that.
Seconded. Document what you like and what you want to use.
If you feel like doing everything yourself bottom up (rolling your own
buttons etc), Cello is what you want. If you are looking for a way of
quickly creating native looking apps and standard widgets meet your
needs, cells-gtk might be your best bet. If you are looking for a true
cross-platform (linux/win/mac) multimedia-enabled GUI, Celtk is most
promising (even though cells-gtk is catching up with an interactive
cairo drawing area and an opengl widget).
Your OS of choice might help in the decision making process, too. Gtk
is the first choice on linux, is available for windows, but Mac stuff is
experimental, they say. Tcl/Tk is everywhere, and with Tcl/tk 8.5 it
finally looks nice on the latest distros (not native look and feel on
linux, tho). Cello is everywhere, and it will always look the way you
do the opengl drawing.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter Hildebrandt wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>> So, does anyone on this list either have any suggestions as to what
>>> lib to cover (I'd prefer to document a GUI lib, since all I get from
>>> Lisp newbies is 'the GUI libs suck')? Or better still, are you a
>>> programmer that would like to see your library completely documented?
>
>
> First of all: Congrats! You are the first poster here pointing out the
> problem /and offering a solution/ :-)
>
>> GUIs: Cells-Gtk, Celtk, and Cello in increasing order of both power
>> and need of documentation -- I cannot even give you meaningful links
>> to the last two except for their CVS repositories on c-l.net.
>
>
> I dunno whether Celtk really has more power than cells-gtk. But then,
> how do you define "power" in terms of GUI toolkits? I like Gtk's choice
> of widgets better than Tcl/Tk's.
I was talking about having the entire Tcl language thrown in for kicks.
:) I /really/ got off on the Snap drop-in (or mebber it was already
dropped in?) and then the QuickTime widget was a hoot -- with about two
hours work I had a beach rant right in my Algebra app! I also consider
Gtk a non-starter until (or has it?) 2.0 goes native on the Mac.
But basically I was talking about Tcl and the libs and the open dialog
and directory search -- oh, yeah, Tcp/IP sockets. ie, It's not just a GUI.
Of course for all I know you have added all that to Gtk by now.
>
>> Libraries: Cells, which happens also to document each of the above
>> three GUIs.
>
>
> That'd be a rewarding effort and would probably help you understand the
> power of all the cells-driven GUI toolkits. But then, once you
> understand cells, you'll be off rolling your own GUI toolkit anyway ...
I was afraid to point that out, but...yep.
kt
>
>> Cells-Gtk actually has presentable doc (and GTk doc itself applies).
>> That said, Peter Hildebrandt has done a ton on, with, for, and to
>> Cells-Gtk lately so...?
>
>
> And so -- of course -- that'd be my vote. I am currently working on
> putting together a getting started for sbcl/linux:
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/cgtk3-start.html
>
> Cells-Gtk features a nice sample application demonstrating most of its
> widgets, so one can learn by doing. Of course, this app is hardly
> documented ;-)
>
>> Check my beach rant to see why Cello is the True Lisp Way of GUIs. You
>> might decide which GUI you like best for yourself and document that.
>
>
> Seconded. Document what you like and what you want to use.
>
> If you feel like doing everything yourself bottom up (rolling your own
> buttons etc), Cello is what you want. If you are looking for a way of
> quickly creating native looking apps and standard widgets meet your
> needs, cells-gtk might be your best bet. If you are looking for a true
> cross-platform (linux/win/mac) multimedia-enabled GUI, Celtk is most
> promising (even though cells-gtk is catching up with an interactive
> cairo drawing area and an opengl widget).
>
> Your OS of choice might help in the decision making process, too. Gtk
> is the first choice on linux, is available for windows, but Mac stuff is
> experimental, they say. Tcl/Tk is everywhere, and with Tcl/tk 8.5 it
> finally looks nice on the latest distros (not native look and feel on
> linux, tho). Cello is everywhere, and it will always look the way you
> do the opengl drawing.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
--
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
ECLM rant:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1331906677993764413&hl=en
ECLM talk:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9173722505157942928&q=&hl=en
Thanks for all the answers. I'll take a look at Cells-gtk, Celtk and
Cello over the next week or so. They all seem seriously lacking in
what I would call good documentation...
Expect to see some real work in late July, I'm a teacher and have 6
weeks of summer off, so I was looking to spending some time on a
little project like this over my holidays.
One more thing to add: if anyone has any *small* boiler-plate like
code snippets for any the above, feel free to email them to me. The
more information I have, the faster things will move.
maximinus <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> I'm (reasonably) new to this Lisp thing (but not to programming, I
> should point out).
>
> After mulling around with the thought of producing a groovy new
> library for GUI construction I thought a better idea would be to help
> with a current project. Then again, after assessing my current Lisp
> skills, any programming input I give probably wouldn't be of much use
> either.
>
> So I thought I'd put some serious effort into creating a decent set of
> documentation for some library of Lisp, complete with tutorials,
> FAQ's, the lot.
>
> This would of course mean asking a bunch of questions to the author(s)
> of such a lib. Luckily I do have some abilities, you won't need to
> completely hold my hand. And I won't try to be annoying on purpose.
UncommonWeb (UCW) needs some documentation. Not GUI, but WUI.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
WARNING: This product warps space and time in its vicinity.