Hello there, I'm virtually an alien to CL and talking in general, so I
hope this doesn't tread on anyone's toes. If it does, sorry!
There are basically 2 things that I would like to ask your opinion
about, and this is all factually based rather than religious, so don't
worry.
The first, what function reference do you use? Currently I use the
HyperSpec:
http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/fun_mapccm_ma_istcm_mapcon.html
Coming from a PHP background, I'm used to something like:
http://uk3.php.net/manual/en/function.array-map.php
In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
please reply!
The second is that, being from a PHP background, I'm used to things
being done for me (spoon-fed is the phrase, I believe).
The easiest way to do this (my guess) would be to provide a zip or tar
file which contained a set of libraries for standard webby type things
like HTML and MySQL.
The user would then do
(load "my-standard.lisp")
and get hacking.
Ofcourse, I could do that myself, but I'm ever so lazy*.
opinions, please!
* If you take objection to this, go and read the first sentence again.
Ali wrote:
> Hello there, I'm virtually an alien to CL and talking in general, so I
> hope this doesn't tread on anyone's toes. If it does, sorry!
Don't be an idiot. Just ask your damn questions, don't begin with an
implicit "I know you are all a bunch of nooby eating assholes."*
In fact, everything you said except this was perfectly fine. Moral
somewhere.
>
> There are basically 2 things that I would like to ask your opinion
> about, and this is all factually based rather than religious, so don't
> worry.
Oh shut up and say what you want. Jeez.
>
> The first, what function reference do you use? Currently I use the
> HyperSpec:
>
> http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/fun_mapccm_ma_istcm_mapcon.html
Me, too.
>
> Coming from a PHP background, I'm used to something like:
>
> http://uk3.php.net/manual/en/function.array-map.php
>
> In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
> any I've found,...
The examples look good. I always feel the examples are where
documentation falls down.
The best doc I ever saw was for Applesoft basic, the floting point basic
(not that the integer basic doc wasn't good). Not only did they tell you
how a command worked, they talked a bit about misuse and what could be
anticipated therefrom. talk about going the extra mile.
And the Mac books were great. i liked how they found the right place for
everything. Seems like normally the information I need in other doc that
seems not be there is there. In an unindexed appendix.
so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
> please reply!
>
> The second is that, being from a PHP background, I'm used to things
> being done for me (spoon-fed is the phrase, I believe).
We call that waiting for the open source fairy to leave things under
your pillow.
>
> The easiest way to do this (my guess) would be to provide a zip or tar
> file which contained a set of libraries for standard webby type things
> like HTML and MySQL.
>
> The user would then do
>
> (load "my-standard.lisp")
>
> and get hacking.
>
> Ofcourse, I could do that myself, but I'm ever so lazy*.
>
> opinions, please!
>
get asdf-install working.
>
> * If you take objection to this, go and read the first sentence again.
>
Go read my first sentence again really loud injecting profanity kicking
chairs and throwing things and try never to tell me what to do again,
we'll get along famously.
hth, kenny
ps. Where do i mail the t-shirt? k
* As a schoolteacher I never offered rules because everyone knows how
they are supposed to act and the right way to deal with kids is to
assume the best and react with shock to misbehavior to reinforce its
out-of-boundness. When you say "don't X" you concede they will be Xing
and are basically laying down the chalk lines of a playing field in
which they will be trying to X and you will be trying to stop them. Much
better to wait for X (you know, ninety seconds) and then say, "Whoa,
X?!" Likewise never tell a class acting well that they are acting well
-- that forces them to act worse. In fact, when a group is working well
for the love of god keep yer big yap shut. One announcement reminding
everyone of the softball game friday is enough to break the spell. It's
one of those Heisenberg deals.
k
Excellent, thanks for the replies.
Although Pascal's was useful, Kenny's reply was funnier.
I'll see if I can write a pretty reference in minimal time. If I can't
I probably can't.
As a side note, could anyone (*cough* Kenny) paste a link to some kind
of OpenAir website or webpage? You mentioned it a while back, but
Google still isn't helping me find it. Its just good to know the
project is still alive.
k, I'm from the younger generation. E-mail me the t-shirt, k.
On Jul 24, 12:06 am, Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll see if I can write a pretty reference in minimal time.
Actually, this seems like a big "no".
http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/FrontMatter/About-HyperSpec.html#Ordering
What a silly oversight.
Ali <·············@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 24, 12:06�am, Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'll see if I can write a pretty reference in minimal time.
>
> Actually, this seems like a big "no".
> http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/FrontMatter/About-HyperSpec.html#Ordering
>
> What a silly oversight.
You cannot make _copies_ (even modified), but you can still write your
own reference.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
NOTE: The most fundamental particles in this product are held
together by a "gluing" force about which little is currently known
and whose adhesive power can therefore not be permanently
guaranteed.
Ali wrote:
> Excellent, thanks for the replies.
> Although Pascal's was useful, Kenny's reply was funnier.
> I'll see if I can write a pretty reference in minimal time. If I can't
> I probably can't.
>
> As a side note, could anyone (*cough* Kenny) paste a link to some kind
> of OpenAir website or webpage?
http://common-lisp.net/project/openair/
Ignore the dead stub ..../openAIR.
Andy has been distracted by the joys of desktop GUIs, but every week it
seems someone asks about o/a and I think there is enough there for
someone good at software to pick it up and run with it pretty easily we
just have the usual Lisp walking dead perfect for a dead language
phenomenon keeping Rails on top. Speaking of which....nope, still 116 to
89 Ruby over Python on googlefight. Ruby has peaked, now is the time to
strike. (OWTU....)
kt
Kenny <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
+---------------
| * As a schoolteacher I never offered rules because everyone knows how
| they are supposed to act and the right way to deal with kids is to
| assume the best and react with shock to misbehavior to reinforce its
| out-of-boundness. When you say "don't X" you concede they will be Xing
| and are basically laying down the chalk lines of a playing field in
| which they will be trying to X and you will be trying to stop them.
+---------------
Ah, yez... A.k.a. "Don't stuff beans up your nose":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_stuff_beans_up_your_nose
...
In our zeal to head off others' unwise action, we may put forth
ideas they have not entertained. It may not be wise to caution
against such possibilities. Prophylactic admonition may trigger
novel mischief. As the popular saying goes, "don't give 'em any ideas."
...
-Rob
p.s. And as long as we're having WP fun, here's another
for you to contemplate as you finalize your algebra tutor: ;-}
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Instruction_creep
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Rob Warnock wrote:
> Kenny <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> +---------------
> | * As a schoolteacher I never offered rules because everyone knows how
> | they are supposed to act and the right way to deal with kids is to
> | assume the best and react with shock to misbehavior to reinforce its
> | out-of-boundness. When you say "don't X" you concede they will be Xing
> | and are basically laying down the chalk lines of a playing field in
> | which they will be trying to X and you will be trying to stop them.
> +---------------
>
> Ah, yez... A.k.a. "Don't stuff beans up your nose":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_stuff_beans_up_your_nose
> ...
> In our zeal to head off others' unwise action, we may put forth
> ideas they have not entertained. It may not be wise to caution
> against such possibilities. Prophylactic admonition may trigger
> novel mischief. As the popular saying goes, "don't give 'em any ideas."
> ...
>
>
> -Rob
>
> p.s. And as long as we're having WP fun, here's another
> for you to contemplate as you finalize your algebra tutor: ;-}
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Instruction_creep
Oh, you'll like the software then, there is no manual and not even
menus, neither to popup, pulldown, tearoff, nor put up our noses. ie,
It's more like the original Adventure. There is help to be had if you
can figure out the damn software. :)
The editor "manual" will be "type this sequence... can you believe what
just happened?!". Needless to say this is not a deep design decision, I
just don't want to do the doc so I am turning it into a feature.
kt
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:40:19 -0400, Kenny <·········@gmail.com> said:
| ...
| Moral somewhere.
We even know where (Chapter IX):
... and the moral of that is---'Be what you would seem to
be'---or, if you'd like it put more simply---'Never imagine
yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others
that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what
you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.'
(Parenthesizing and pretty-printing left to the proverbial
industrious reader.)
---Vassil.
--
Peius melius est. ---Ricardus Gabriel.
Ali <·············@gmail.com> writes:
> Hello there, I'm virtually an alien to CL and talking in general, so I
> hope this doesn't tread on anyone's toes. If it does, sorry!
>
> There are basically 2 things that I would like to ask your opinion
> about, and this is all factually based rather than religious, so don't
> worry.
>
> The first, what function reference do you use? Currently I use the
> HyperSpec:
>
> http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/fun_mapccm_ma_istcm_mapcon.html
I use the one at
http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
but they should be the same aside from the background color.
> Coming from a PHP background, I'm used to something like:
>
> http://uk3.php.net/manual/en/function.array-map.php
>
> In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
> any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
> please reply!
I hear it's very good (I also hear it *has* to be good to make PHP
usable, but I know nothing of this myself). The Hyperspec seems to
provide the same essential info though: name, arguments, description,
examples.
http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
No built-in search, but mostly I query it using either automatic
lookup from my editor* or with the YubNub command "clhs". If I suspect
there's something I want but don't know the name of, then I meditate
on the table of contents. Most people do the same, I think.
* Good Lisp editors will tell you the proper arguments for whatever
function you're typing, as well as letting you look up in the
Hyperspec the symbol your cursor is on.
> The second is that, being from a PHP background, I'm used to things
> being done for me (spoon-fed is the phrase, I believe).
>
> The easiest way to do this (my guess) would be to provide a zip or tar
> file which contained a set of libraries for standard webby type things
> like HTML and MySQL.
>
> The user would then do
>
> (load "my-standard.lisp")
>
> and get hacking.
>
> Ofcourse, I could do that myself, but I'm ever so lazy*.
>
> opinions, please!
>
>
> * If you take objection to this, go and read the first sentence again.
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:25:47 -0500, Paul Donnelly <·············@sbcglobal.net> said:
| ...
| If I suspect there's something I want but don't know the name of,
| then I meditate on the table of contents [of the Common Lisp
| HyperSpec].
The glossary (and the permuted symbol index, too) are worth their
weight in gold.
---Vassil.
P.S. The natural unit of mass for an electronic document must be eV,
I think.
--
Peius melius est. ---Ricardus Gabriel.
On Jul 24, 4:25 am, Paul Donnelly <·············@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Ali <·············@gmail.com> writes:
> > In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
> > any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
> > please reply!
>
> I hear it's very good (I also hear it *has* to be good to make PHP
> usable, but I know nothing of this myself). The Hyperspec seems to
> provide the same essential info though: name, arguments, description,
> examples.
Yes, the HyperSpec material (if it was material) is excellent.
However, the features of the PHP one are:
* Fancy little boxes (you can compare this to syntax highlighting vs.
plain text)
* Quick navigation to other functions which work on the same type of
data, via side pane
* "Feeling lucky" searching gets you quickly to any other function
page.
The comments are occasionally useful, but all too often crap.
So the HyperSpec isn't bad, its actually very good. But for me it
doesn't beat the equivalent from other languages.
My project for the next however long is to get those features onto a
web site. The actual content would be filled in wiki-style, because
there is such a vast amount (the HyperSpec was autogenerated).
On Jul 24, 1:42 pm, Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> The comments are occasionally useful, but all too often crap.
Oops, let me take back my admiration at the comments. ;)
Tayssir
Ali <·············@gmail.com> writes:
> Hello there, I'm virtually an alien to CL and talking in general, so I
> hope this doesn't tread on anyone's toes. If it does, sorry!
>
> There are basically 2 things that I would like to ask your opinion
> about, and this is all factually based rather than religious, so don't
> worry.
>
> The first, what function reference do you use? Currently I use the
> HyperSpec:
>
> http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/fun_mapccm_ma_istcm_mapcon.html
Yes, this is THE reference, there's no other.
> Coming from a PHP background, I'm used to something like:
>
> http://uk3.php.net/manual/en/function.array-map.php
>
> In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
> any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
> please reply!
There's none, but you're welcome to write one.
> The second is that, being from a PHP background, I'm used to things
> being done for me (spoon-fed is the phrase, I believe).
>
> The easiest way to do this (my guess) would be to provide a zip or tar
> file which contained a set of libraries for standard webby type things
> like HTML and MySQL.
>
> The user would then do
>
> (load "my-standard.lisp")
>
> and get hacking.
Have a look at the lispbox.
http://gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/
> Ofcourse, I could do that myself, but I'm ever so lazy*.
That's a shame. You would learn more being slightly less lazy.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
HEALTH WARNING: Care should be taken when lifting this product,
since its mass, and thus its weight, is dependent on its velocity
relative to the user.
P� Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:51 +0200, skrev Ali <·············@gmail.com>:
> Hello there, I'm virtually an alien to CL and talking in general, so I
> hope this doesn't tread on anyone's toes. If it does, sorry!
>
> There are basically 2 things that I would like to ask your opinion
> about, and this is all factually based rather than religious, so don't
> worry.
>
> The first, what function reference do you use? Currently I use the
> HyperSpec:
>
> http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/fun_mapccm_ma_istcm_mapcon.html
>
Well Not on the web. But Paul Graham's book "ANSI Common Lisp" has a
reference.
>
> The user would then do
>
> (load "my-standard.lisp")
>
> and get hacking.
>
> Ofcourse, I could do that myself, but I'm ever so lazy*.
>
> opinions, please!
I'd get the LispWorks Personal Edition and Edi Weitz's "Lisp starter Pack"
if you are using Windows.
http://www.lispworks.com/
http://www.weitz.de/starter-pack/
On Linux I hear clbuild is good
http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/
http://www.sbcl.org/
http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/
--------------
John Thingstad
On Jul 23, 11:55 pm, Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
> any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
> please reply!
I use the appendix to Paul Graham's _ANSI CL_. It's a great reference.
Too bad it's dead-tree; maybe it'd be useful to set up a wiki for this
purpose?
I once used the PHP function reference too, because I had to modify
someone's ecommerce package. Boy, was I impressed. The user comments
were very good.
Tayssir
Tayssir John Gabbour <············@googlemail.com> writes:
> On Jul 23, 11:55 pm, Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
>> any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
>> please reply!
>
> I use the appendix to Paul Graham's _ANSI CL_. It's a great reference.
> Too bad it's dead-tree;
Try this one if dead tree isn't good for you:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/267547/Paul-Graham-ANSI-Common-Lisp
Or look here
http://clqr.berlios.de
although the latter may still be a bit rough around the edges.
--
Bert
On Jul 25, 6:38 am, Bert Burgemeister <······@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour <············@googlemail.com> writes:
>
> > On Jul 23, 11:55 pm, Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
> >> any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
> >> please reply!
>
> > I use the appendix to Paul Graham's _ANSI CL_. It's a great reference.
> > Too bad it's dead-tree;
>
> Try this one if dead tree isn't good for you:
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/267547/Paul-Graham-ANSI-Common-Lisp
>
> Or look here
>
> http://clqr.berlios.de
>
> although the latter may still be a bit rough around the edges.
>
This is really good.
Marco
In article <··············@vvastr190.vva.vkw.tu-dresden.de>,
Bert Burgemeister <······@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour <············@googlemail.com> writes:
>
> > On Jul 23, 11:55 pm, Ali <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> In fact, the PHP function reference is my favourite reference out of
> >> any I've found, so if there are any similarly-styled CL ones, please
> >> please reply!
> >
> > I use the appendix to Paul Graham's _ANSI CL_. It's a great reference.
> > Too bad it's dead-tree;
>
> Try this one if dead tree isn't good for you:
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/267547/Paul-Graham-ANSI-Common-Lisp
>
> Or look here
>
> http://clqr.berlios.de
>
> although the latter may still be a bit rough around the edges.
>
> --
> Bert
That looks very cool. Thanks!
--
http://lispm.dyndns.org/