I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
travel domain . As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
such an early stage.Firstly I am going to point out two things:
1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
clients.
2.Lisp is not a mainstream language and is hardly been used in the
software industry. Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
option destroyed his career as a programmer.
My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
software industry and have got many years of experience working across
different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
lisp programmer? I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
some library support in web development domain. My second question is
how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
On Jul 4, 2:41 pm, ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
wrote:
> 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support
no problem for my startup, as I'm much more satisfied with my home-
grown Lisp solutions!
It really gave me wings (even without some Colored Bull).
Look: I'm the only coder in our startup, and we never had any trouble
with that fact.
BTW, programs shouldn't be measured by LOC (as industry loves to do),
but by CMC (currently maintaining coders).
-PM
············@gmail.com wrote:
> I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
> industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
> travel domain .
wow, a working lisper. that makes three.
> As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
> about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
> desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
> such an early stage.Firstly I am going to point out two things:
> 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support .
No sh*t, Einstein.
> That means sometimes very
> ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> quite a lot of time in lisp.
Sure, but then you are using Java. Case closed.
> Say you need a functionality to do
> something quickly ,
You Americans are always in such a hurry.
Lispers are never in a hurry. Our projects are too big, we have to pace
ourselves. Three days to FFI up a new library gives us a nice break from
the hard thinking.
If you need it in an hour, use Tcl. You don't fly the Concorde from New
York to Boston.
> you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> clients.
> 2.Lisp is not a mainstream language ...
Not to quibble, but you are vitally and crucially slightly off target
here. You are defining mainstream as:
> ...and is hardly been used in the
> software industry.
A better definition would be what you said: is in the main stream of
programming technology. Lisp /is/ the main, winning stream of
technology, and other languages are doing their best to get into it.
If you cannot see that, there's your problem.
> Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
> on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
> programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
> referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
> option destroyed his career as a programmer.
He just needed an excuse, Lisp was handy. When he could not change its
name, he changed his own. :)
>
> My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> lisp programmer?
No, but only becaude it is not a practical thing to be a programmer any
more. The field is gone as a career. You may well program in some domain
where you are hired for that domain, but you don't want to walk around
any more looking for "programming jobs".
> I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
I am not having any problems with my desktop application using OpenL,
FreeType, OpenAl, Tcl/Tk, Graphicsmagick, and lord knows what else...
what did you have in mind?
kt
From: Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: future in software industry as a lisp programmer
Date:
Message-ID: <rem-2008jul11-007@yahoo.com>
> From: Kenny <·········@gmail.com>
> ... it is not a practical thing to be a programmer any more. The
> field is gone as a career. You may well program in some domain
> where you are hired for that domain, but you don't want to walk
> around any more looking for "programming jobs".
For some years, as I've developed technology for computer-assisted
instruction, I've wanted to get a job in that field in regular
industry. (My previous major employment was a R&D CAI project at
Stanford.) I'm not interested so much in flashy animated graphics
that entertain more than teach. Rather I'm interested in software
that makes 100% sure the student has *really* mastered the material
being taught. I would like to aid with teaching pre-school children
how to read and spell, helping victims of stroke or Alzheimer's
disease to regain their cognitive function, help victims of
learning disabilities such as dyslexia or trouble-remembering to
overcome that disability, help new employees/trainees learn
technical jargon and other skills, and I also have a CAI-like idea
for advertising that I'd like to propose to replace pop-up/banner
ads on Web pages, etc. (Let me know if you want to try my online
demo of learning Spanish and Mandarin and spelling English most
common words and learning info about good commercial products as
well as my pre-reading CAI to get familiar with phonics of single
letters of the alphabet in the context of the Barney Dinosaur song
lyrics.)
Do you have any suggestions how I might find some potential
employer who would look at some of the technology I already
developed and some of my written ideas for future technology and
consider the possibility of hiring me to adapt some of my existing
technology or implement some of my new ideas towards the needs of
that new employer? Since I put some of my technology online (CGI
service) in late 2002, I haven't succeeded in finding even one
real-live person who would seriously take a "test drive" of my
software for evaluation/brainstorming purposes.
-
Nobody in their right mind likes spammers, nor their automated assistants.
To open an account here, you must demonstrate you're not one of them.
Please spend a few seconds to try to study the number (integer) in this box:
/------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
I9UDWGTYOM4HQ5MWCFYE11XP6IVY68HMQ201FRXRHI6QEWL55395TWUQWRFT7I7VKBX7PK4J2ROM3I5T
Y0OB38MLR6YYKU58QG5ZYZQ31EPJTIP4N9MEXIVEY1JOK17L7BCF27LUOBRMOF4DRRFHTTINLIDPS4FE
SO8T6JZ3R1H6L9DQDVZIR5RGK3YVEVZKOVCHVBHR90ILBH2TQBUPHSM2BNIXVET2D1GIAMG2RDA7DLMJ
E4J4MCDHPQRLJILLWM4RTVR1VV3PAK54WGL2WTHHYXRKB1RHOCTWK2JOXRK4R7EMF1VGMHG0323H5TM9
9EJMCNG9AXUN0GXA0VX0PMWU18XEHX84G9YSZMK5K5UYKUHBZ019QW65W8LL0YSELB0KSM7UKL1KC723
ALXQ0VZS0MC366E1PRKVLZCPDH869872VK6XCHB23YTJDBW90RNOUWCMO1PQQUMMONQ7J7DTOEOU3AD7
TUG2TLLLXJVQ3RT4HRBKJALC38M7Y170RHM7O7EV5JE0CSR6H8FP9RPTFLYO1B7W2QTJCEIDJF1RNQ87
JUSRFP9MQWU663ETUTB7UJPNZNFNN22KSMXQ87ZBQJJF12GE5ZOFB174E0C8JZST6TWDK2ALE4KGIXKM
8YTU3MBR04DW0BI063GFKC299KY35EDWVC72MKJKAAT06W446DTJYT3V5VB9UF4F69WUJKF0RV8VQ57F
W04AK5UYU6KBKV5F3HCCVCC9LHTEEXEOVZ8NFBGOEJX6A5ZEZJYR8CR50S8PKIJX0SMI03P9H9NPJKFK
DS6S3MYN77P1ZPNFO3ZG2PD21M37CVFHKSUGB35IH542DLEG54AWIYC99O6IV2MOTC4MUBYMNO4OSFKJ
FDOKSE8PLXHNWXF6VKP5TDN0YWUZWCQTCZFX3765O5I797I9U3JCJN4ZB3II4194EB84S4XFQ45X7P54
0ATCAYBD03D6VVBBEJBYIG3F57ID9LH7CTL2488RON1KKJ88VQ5LQP7HIKIIMCWS5RJC8VU7Y5Q3WEPB
PR5K7MRWKCXFQGBQEN7LMQDO4HZCTQM008SGIJMZ05WHW0P0ILKHVNO30C8Q3XE58TXOCBNNLCQCP69K
IFLL6D2MJMXR1RTD39ABT2IAXXCFWZEB77N234AKJWLWUU5XU0N6N5GKXUMAUTI203ZC1CQ815YT9D54
4GLWEFLVIGEVWIYT5CGWEBZ0VSTR8ZH7T070JI2YHALSOT033VW639IL69MDHXMRUI5EF9CRQEX0UKG8
IDUER2X25F5JURIW7X0AZZ33FOI33GCDWDDH3LHDREHPBH7AK514FUGC1L48UMHVR5AH5ZHEOFTAQFBL
IYP7TUPMX6DHZKVMY7DBH096CSHSZY3W7J228DS74000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
\-------------------(Generated by CMUCL just today)----------------------------/
(You don't need JavaScript or images to see that CAPTCHA!!
You just need to copy the text into a text editor, delete the
line breaks, then feed it to software you write to analyze it.)
Then try to succinctly explain the significance of that number
within the confines of this TextArea:
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| |
| |
| |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: future in software industry as a lisp programmer
Date:
Message-ID: <87lk08awea.fsf@geddis.org>
··················@spamgourmet.com.remove (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote on Fri, 11 Jul 2008:
> For some years, as I've developed technology for computer-assisted
> instruction, I've wanted to get a job in that field in regular
> industry. [...] I'm not interested so much in flashy animated graphics
> that entertain more than teach. Rather I'm interested in software that
> makes 100% sure the student has *really* mastered the material being
> taught.
Hmm. I believe that our very own Kenny, on this newsgroup, has a software
product that provides (algebra) computer-aided instruction.
Extra bonus: I suspect much of Kenny's code is written in Common Lisp!
> Do you have any suggestions how I might find some potential employer who
> would look at some of the technology I already developed and some of my
> written ideas for future technology and consider the possibility of hiring
> me to adapt some of my existing technology or implement some of my new
> ideas towards the needs of that new employer?
Perhaps Kenny is hiring?
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
If you owe the bank $100, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100
million, that's the bank's problem. -- John Paul Getty
Don Geddis wrote:
> ··················@spamgourmet.com.remove (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote on Fri, 11 Jul 2008:
>> For some years, as I've developed technology for computer-assisted
>> instruction, I've wanted to get a job in that field in regular
>> industry. [...] I'm not interested so much in flashy animated graphics
>> that entertain more than teach. Rather I'm interested in software that
>> makes 100% sure the student has *really* mastered the material being
>> taught.
>
> Hmm. I believe that our very own Kenny, on this newsgroup, has a software
> product that provides (algebra) computer-aided instruction.
I am a little embarrassed, had to abandon a mission (er, quiz) when I
got two out of the first three wrong trying to divide fractions with
lotsa reduction possible in my head. I just hate the extra typing of
doing things step by step, but then it was the same with pencil and
paper so at least the software is not introducing a problem.
>
> Extra bonus: I suspect much of Kenny's code is written in Common Lisp!
hang on, I have been meaning to count, not that it has changed much
lately... 39k, another 20k of OPC just to run cl-s3 (which needs kpax
and more).
Roughly:
5k Cells
5k Celtk
9k Cello
20k Algebra
Usual 10% of dead code.
> Perhaps Kenny is hiring?
ASAP.
kt
··················@spamgourmet.com.remove (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> -
The convention for signature start is: newline - - space newline
> Nobody in their right mind likes spammers, nor their automated assistants.
> To open an account here, you must demonstrate you're not one of them.
> Please spend a few seconds to try to study the number (integer) in this box:
>
> /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
> I9UDWGTYOM4HQ5MWCFYE11XP6IVY68HMQ201FRXRHI6QEWL55395TWUQWRFT7I7VKBX7PK4J2ROM3I5T
> Y0OB38MLR6YYKU58QG5ZYZQ31EPJTIP4N9MEXIVEY1JOK17L7BCF27LUOBRMOF4DRRFHTTINLIDPS4FE
> SO8T6JZ3R1H6L9DQDVZIR5RGK3YVEVZKOVCHVBHR90ILBH2TQBUPHSM2BNIXVET2D1GIAMG2RDA7DLMJ
> E4J4MCDHPQRLJILLWM4RTVR1VV3PAK54WGL2WTHHYXRKB1RHOCTWK2JOXRK4R7EMF1VGMHG0323H5TM9
> 9EJMCNG9AXUN0GXA0VX0PMWU18XEHX84G9YSZMK5K5UYKUHBZ019QW65W8LL0YSELB0KSM7UKL1KC723
> ALXQ0VZS0MC366E1PRKVLZCPDH869872VK6XCHB23YTJDBW90RNOUWCMO1PQQUMMONQ7J7DTOEOU3AD7
> TUG2TLLLXJVQ3RT4HRBKJALC38M7Y170RHM7O7EV5JE0CSR6H8FP9RPTFLYO1B7W2QTJCEIDJF1RNQ87
> JUSRFP9MQWU663ETUTB7UJPNZNFNN22KSMXQ87ZBQJJF12GE5ZOFB174E0C8JZST6TWDK2ALE4KGIXKM
> 8YTU3MBR04DW0BI063GFKC299KY35EDWVC72MKJKAAT06W446DTJYT3V5VB9UF4F69WUJKF0RV8VQ57F
> W04AK5UYU6KBKV5F3HCCVCC9LHTEEXEOVZ8NFBGOEJX6A5ZEZJYR8CR50S8PKIJX0SMI03P9H9NPJKFK
> DS6S3MYN77P1ZPNFO3ZG2PD21M37CVFHKSUGB35IH542DLEG54AWIYC99O6IV2MOTC4MUBYMNO4OSFKJ
> FDOKSE8PLXHNWXF6VKP5TDN0YWUZWCQTCZFX3765O5I797I9U3JCJN4ZB3II4194EB84S4XFQ45X7P54
> 0ATCAYBD03D6VVBBEJBYIG3F57ID9LH7CTL2488RON1KKJ88VQ5LQP7HIKIIMCWS5RJC8VU7Y5Q3WEPB
> PR5K7MRWKCXFQGBQEN7LMQDO4HZCTQM008SGIJMZ05WHW0P0ILKHVNO30C8Q3XE58TXOCBNNLCQCP69K
> IFLL6D2MJMXR1RTD39ABT2IAXXCFWZEB77N234AKJWLWUU5XU0N6N5GKXUMAUTI203ZC1CQ815YT9D54
> 4GLWEFLVIGEVWIYT5CGWEBZ0VSTR8ZH7T070JI2YHALSOT033VW639IL69MDHXMRUI5EF9CRQEX0UKG8
> IDUER2X25F5JURIW7X0AZZ33FOI33GCDWDDH3LHDREHPBH7AK514FUGC1L48UMHVR5AH5ZHEOFTAQFBL
> IYP7TUPMX6DHZKVMY7DBH096CSHSZY3W7J228DS74000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> \-------------------(Generated by CMUCL just today)----------------------------/
> (You don't need JavaScript or images to see that CAPTCHA!!
> You just need to copy the text into a text editor, delete the
> line breaks, then feed it to software you write to analyze it.)
>
> Then try to succinctly explain the significance of that number
> within the confines of this TextArea:
> +------------------------------------------------------------+
> | (1�2�3�5)! |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> +------------------------------------------------------------+
What do I win?
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
"Specifications are for the weak and timid!"
On Jul 4, 3:41 pm, ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
wrote:
> 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
> ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
> something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> clients.
It's funny, that people talk about it all the time. But this time can
you please give a couple of examples, where there wasn't a good Lisp
library for your tasks?
Vsevolod
> My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> lisp programmer? I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
Do whatever it takes to get a paycheck. Use Lisp (and any other tool)
to enhance your value, regardless of your actual job description. I
have worked in mainframe COBOL for 23 years. I used to beat my head
against the brick wall of my colleagues' indifference to techniques
beyond what they learned in structured programming class 20+ years
ago. Then the light bulb went on and I began building tools to
increase my own productivity. I now have an inexplicable ability to
turn out working code with beautiful (and correct) typeset
documentation, and test drivers, using my Lisp-based COBOL code
generators. I can also take on research and data munging tasks and
wring order out of chaotic piles of data, thaks to Lisp. But I don't
bother spreading the word unless someone asks "Hey, how'd you do
that?" The quickest way to see someone's eyes glaze over is to go into
language advocacy mode when they are basically a clock-watching
accidental programmer. So the real answer is, if you want "Lisp
Programmer" in your job title you may have a hard time, but if you are
a Lisp Programmer regardless of your job title, you will have a
lucrative future.
> Do whatever it takes to get a paycheck.
some people can find wasting something like a half
of their time on simply getting paychecks wrong.
it's definitely possible to be getting those
paychecks and enjoying the process at same time.
> Use Lisp (and any other tool)
> to enhance your value,
this could make work more bearable, but if
problem domain is boring by itself, that won't
really help
On Jul 5, 2:59 am, "Alex Mizrahi" <············@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Do whatever it takes to get a paycheck.
>
> some people can find wasting something like a half
> of their time on simply getting paychecks wrong.
> it's definitely possible to be getting those
> paychecks and enjoying the process at same time.
>
> > Use Lisp (and any other tool)
> > to enhance your value,
>
> this could make work more bearable, but if
> problem domain is boring by itself, that won't
> really help
Spending half my time adding disclaimers that I'm only describing what
has worked for me and that it is not ideal (even for me) makes for
bloated posts, won't really help and is wrong for me.
·····················@gmail.com wrote:
> I used to beat my head
> against the brick wall of my colleagues' indifference to techniques
> beyond what they learned in structured programming class 20+ years
> ago.
Lucky you, I have worked with people who don't know even that.
-Antony
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: future in software industry as a lisp programmer
Date:
Message-ID: <87iqvluy6h.fsf@geddis.org>
·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 4 Jul 2008 :
> I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in industry
> for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in travel domain.
Wait! Let me guess. Um...Orbitz (aka ITA)?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there
can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on
the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf
question. -- John McCarthy
On Jul 5, 2:39 am, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
> ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 4 Jul 2008 :
>
> > I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in industry
> > for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in travel domain.
>
> Wait! Let me guess. Um...Orbitz (aka ITA)?
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ····@geddis.org
> An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there
> can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on
> the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf
> question. -- John McCarthy
nope cleartrip in india .yup we have got a great group of enthusiastic
lisp developers
On Jul 7, 3:05 am, ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Jul 5, 2:39 am, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>
> > ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 4 Jul 2008 :
>
> > > I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in industry
> > > for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in travel domain.
>
> > Wait! Let me guess. Um...Orbitz (aka ITA)?
> > _______________________________________________________________________________
> > Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ····@geddis.org
> > An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there
> > can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on
> > the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf
> > question. -- John McCarthy
>
> nope cleartrip in india .yup we have got a great group of enthusiastic
> lisp developers
Check out:
http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/l_e_t_lisp.html?catid=7
and
http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/jsearch.html
We're hiring!
-- Dan Weinreb, ITA Software, Inc.
P.S. Orbitz is one of our customers. If you want to program in
Common Lisp, on the software that Orbix uses for pricing and
shopping, or on a cool new airline reservation system, you
want to be talking to ITA rather than to Orbitz directly.
From: Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: future in software industry as a lisp programmer
Date:
Message-ID: <rem-2008jul11-008@yahoo.com>
> From: Don Geddis <····@geddis.org>
| An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there
| can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on
| the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf
| question. -- John McCarthy
Dang, so he considers me to satisfy his definition of that unpopular word.
Here I've been saying I'm not an athiest, I'm a freethinker (*),
but now I'd have to go against JMC if I'm to maintain that stance.
It's quite a dilemma which way to go.
Oh well, I guess JMC is the master of words however he wants,
just like the fellow who fell off the fence as Alice watched.
* (Theist: Absolutely sure that there is a supernatural being.
Athiest: Absolutely sure that there is no supernatural being.
Agnostic: Quite sure that it's impossible to know if there is or isn't.
Freethinker: Undecided whether it is or is not possible to know.)
-
Nobody in their right mind likes spammers, nor their automated assistants.
To open an account here, you must demonstrate you're not one of them.
Please spend a few seconds to think about the deepest most
difficult questions about the Universe as a whole which haven't yet
been answered and might never be and maybe can't even possibly be.
Then enter the three such questions you consider deepest and most
profound and most unlikely to ever be answerable into this TextArea:
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| |
| |
| |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: future in software industry as a lisp programmer
Date:
Message-ID: <87hcawaw3j.fsf@geddis.org>
··················@spamgourmet.com.remove (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote on Fri, 11 Jul 2008:
>> From: Don Geddis <····@geddis.org>
> | An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that
> | there can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the
> | evidence on the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the
> | werewolf question. -- John McCarthy
>
> * (Theist: Absolutely sure that there is a supernatural being.
> Athiest: Absolutely sure that there is no supernatural being.
> Agnostic: Quite sure that it's impossible to know if there is or isn't.
> Freethinker: Undecided whether it is or is not possible to know.)
Many people probably think your definitions are reasonable ... but hardly
anyone self-labels as "atheist" according to that definition.
If you actually look at the people who self-label as "atheist", they
generally assert 90%+ (99%+?) probability of "no supernatural being".
I'm not sure where that, most common non-theist, category of people fits
into your proposed definitions.
BTW: Richard Dawkins, in his "The God Delusion", supports McCarthy's point
of view. He imagines a 1-7 scale of "how certain are you of god/no god?".
Dawkins says that there are many people that would put themselves at 1
("there is definitely a god"), but hardly anyone -- even himself! -- that
would self-label at 7.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.
("Mit der Dummheit k�mpfen G�tter selbst vergebens.")
-- Friedrich von Schiller (1759-1805), "Maid of Orleans"
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: future in software industry as a lisp programmer
Date:
Message-ID: <6dsgk5F44h1iU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Athiest: Absolutely sure that there is no supernatural being.
That's a pretty narrow definition; it's more like anything between "does
not agree with the concept of supremacist gods in principle", "does not
believe in the existence gods as presented by the common religions", and
the absolutist meaning you gave.
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> Athiest: Absolutely sure that there is no supernatural being.
>
> That's a pretty narrow definition; it's more like anything between "does
> not agree with the concept of supremacist gods in principle", "does not
> believe in the existence gods as presented by the common religions", and
> the absolutist meaning you gave.
There is also sometimes an element of active /opposition/ to theism, as
in the imposition of theists of their rules on everyone. So Madelaine
O'hare Murray (?) was an atheist and Kenny is an ayobboist, but not an
atheist even thought I rank ... well, that's my point, I reject the
scale, too.
See, as long as one is debating the Big Boy's existence, he exists. Only
when you just laugh at the idea and the scale and those who panic on
their deathbeds as if that is going to help can you get to 11 (I prefer
the Spinal Tap scale).
Meanwhile, for my money, if you go by the behaviorist principle in which
one's behavior defines one's mental state, about 98% of Americans are
absolutely certain there is no God.
:)
kzo
·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com> writes:
> I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
> industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
> travel domain . As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
> about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
> desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
> such an early stage. Firstly I am going to point out two things:
> 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
> ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
> something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> clients.
Correct.
Lisp is not made to hit lowly business deadlines. Lisp is made to
*create* a strong artificial intelligence. That AI will be able to
fulfill all your need, but that won't be on commercial terms.
> 2.Lisp is not a mainstream language and is hardly been used in the
> software industry. Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
> on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
> programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
> referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
> option destroyed his career as a programmer.
Correct.
> My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> lisp programmer?
If you've got a paying lisp job, of course, it's practical to continue
working as a lisp programmer.
Otherwise, if you want to pay the bills, take any job that pays
enough! It probably won't be a lisp job.
For example, in the UK, lisp jobs currently represent only 0.011 % of
all IT jobs:
http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q=lisp&id=0&lid=2618
so if you're lucky to be one of the 21 happy fews, it would be very
practical to be a lisp programmer, but if not, it would be very
impractical, because being a lisp programmer without a lisp job
wouldn't bring the bread on the table. If you don't have a lisp job,
better become a java programmer. You would have more probabilities to
get a java job (given that more than 15% of the IT jobs in the UK
involve Java), and therefore it would be more practical.
Finally, depending on your priorities, it might be practical to make
your own job. Don't count on a boss to create your lisp job, create
it yourself (become self-employeed, or start up your own company with
a secret alien-tech advantage).
> I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
I would say, better than inside web. The proportion of web sites
written in lisp is less than 0.00000001 ; the proportion of AI written
in lisp is more than 0.0001.
( But don't think lisp is good only for AI http://www.franz.com/success/ )
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
On Jul 4, 6:14 pm, ····@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:
> ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com> writes:
> > I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
> > industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
> > travel domain . As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
> > about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
> > desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
> > such an early stage. Firstly I am going to point out two things:
> > 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
> > ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> > quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
> > something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> > documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> > stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> > clients.
One can use FFI bindings which works fine across platforms (although
the code written
will be less efficient as it has to made portable and written as a
L.C.D.).The commercial
version of Allegro common lisp which we use in our company has got
good F.F.I. support for
C,C++ and Java libraries.The constraint over using ready made
libraries in the same language
will be little bit extra time and effort required. But I guess it more
than compensates for
the raw power we get by using lisp.
> Correct.
>
> Lisp is not made to hit lowly business deadlines. Lisp is made to
> *create* a strong artificial intelligence. That AI will be able to
> fulfill all your need, but that won't be on commercial terms.
>
> > 2.Lisp is not a mainstream language and is hardly been used in the
> > software industry. Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
> > on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
> > programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
> > referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
> > option destroyed his career as a programmer.
>
> Correct.
>
> > My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> > software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> > different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> > lisp programmer?
>
> If you've got a paying lisp job, of course, it's practical to continue
> working as a lisp programmer.
>
> Otherwise, if you want to pay the bills, take any job that pays
> enough! It probably won't be a lisp job.
>
> For example, in the UK, lisp jobs currently represent only 0.011 % of
> all IT jobs:http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q...
> so if you're lucky to be one of the 21 happy fews, it would be very
> practical to be a lisp programmer, but if not, it would be very
> impractical, because being a lisp programmer without a lisp job
> wouldn't bring the bread on the table. If you don't have a lisp job,
> better become a java programmer. You would have more probabilities to
> get a java job (given that more than 15% of the IT jobs in the UK
> involve Java), and therefore it would be more practical.
>
> Finally, depending on your priorities, it might be practical to make
> your own job. Don't count on a boss to create your lisp job, create
> it yourself (become self-employeed, or start up your own company with
> a secret alien-tech advantage).
>
> > I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> > some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> > how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
>
> I would say, better than inside web. The proportion of web sites
> written in lisp is less than 0.00000001 ; the proportion of AI written
> in lisp is more than 0.0001.
>
> ( But don't think lisp is good only for AI http://www.franz.com/success/)
>
> --
> __Pascal Bourguignon__
The main problem is that there aren't sufficient lisp jobs. As kenny
said the
domain knowledge matters much more than the choice of programming
language.
It is a sad thing when you find that you want to work in a particular
domain
but there just isn't a job in the market for the language you love.So
I guess
I am pretty lucky that I have got the lisp job although the website
travel
domain is pretty ordinary.(I earlier used to work in
telecommunication company
on 3g technology but used to write test scripts :) ).
People build their careers working many years in a particular domain
and I guess
the language choice is just a small component of their technical
capability .
> My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> lisp programmer?
sure, if you enjoy it. if you're afraid that you won't be able
to find another job if you leave current, i can say it won't
be hard to learn some other language like Python, and
you always can do sort of freelancing if you'll have problems
with regular job.
> I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
it depends :). definitely libraries are not as numerous
as for Perl, or even Python. but there is FFI to use
external libraries, and often you can code things yourself
if there is no ready solution. so it's hardly to imagine
when absence of library is a complete showstopper --
it just takes more effort to get library support (porting something,
using FFI or writting your own). so it's not a problem
for long term projects.
for short term ones library support is critical, though,
and often presence and quality of libs dictate choice of
language
From: Parth Malwankar
Subject: Re: future in software industry as a lisp programmer
Date:
Message-ID: <op.udrqecuwy4b379@localhost>
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:11:45 +0530, ············@gmail.com
<············@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
> industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
> travel domain . As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
> about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
> desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
> such an early stage.Firstly I am going to point out two things:
> 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
> ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
> something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> clients.
> 2.Lisp is not a mainstream language and is hardly been used in the
> software industry. Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
> on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
> programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
> referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
> option destroyed his career as a programmer.
>
> My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> lisp programmer? I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
If you want to be a good programmer its almost never a good
idea to know only one language. Doesn't matter if its lisp or java.
Large systems are invariably made up of multiple languages.
While working on chip design I find myself using Python, C,
assembly, and Ruby.
Also, its not about the language, learning lisp will encourage
you to look at the design problem from a different prespective.
It will make you a better programmer even if you need to work
with another language because a pointy-haired boss demands it.
If you are in a position to decide on a langauge, let the problem
domain decide on it.
I haven't found library support lacking in lisp. The documenation
is lacking sometimes but thats ok as typically its easy to
look into the source.
--
Parth Malwankar
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:30:02 +0530, "Parth Malwankar"
<·················@parth.malwankar> wrote:
>I haven't found library support lacking in lisp. The documenation
>is lacking sometimes but thats ok as typically its easy to
>look into the source.
That's what newbies don't like about Lisp. It's ok if there is decent
internal documentation - then you can just find the exported function
signatures and go onward. But sometimes there is little or no
internal documentation so you also have to read through the code to
find out what the function's parameters mean.
George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address
On Jul 4, 7:41 am, ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
> industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
> travel domain . As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
> about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
> desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
> such an early stage.Firstly I am going to point out two things:
> 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
> ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
> something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> clients.
> 2.Lisp is not a mainstream language and is hardly been used in the
> software industry. Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
> on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
> programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
> referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
> option destroyed his career as a programmer.
>
> My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> lisp programmer? I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
Web, travel, lisp, based in India...do you work at ClearTrip?
I have a list of companies known to use Lisp here (http://
www.pchristensen.com/blog/lisp-companies/). It's a pretty long list
until you consider that it is for the entire world. Even if you don't
continue getting paid to Lisp, keep Lisping!
On Jul 5, 6:09 pm, Peter Christensen <···················@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Jul 4, 7:41 am, ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
> > industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
> > travel domain . As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
> > about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
> > desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
> > such an early stage.Firstly I am going to point out two things:
> > 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
> > ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> > quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
> > something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> > documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> > stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> > clients.
> > 2.Lisp is not a mainstream language and is hardly been used in the
> > software industry. Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
> > on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
> > programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
> > referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
> > option destroyed his career as a programmer.
>
> > My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> > software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> > different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> > lisp programmer? I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> > some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> > how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
>
> Web, travel, lisp, based in India...do you work at ClearTrip?
>
> I have a list of companies known to use Lisp here (http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/lisp-companies/). It's a pretty long list
> until you consider that it is for the entire world. Even if you don't
> continue getting paid to Lisp, keep Lisping!
yup at cleartrip..
On Jul 4, 8:41 am, ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have been studying lisp for the last two years and working in
> industry for the last one year as a lisp programmer in web sphere in
> travel domain . As it is initial stage of my career I don't know much
> about the software industry and jumped into lisp out of curiosity and
> desire to learn something different. I could afford to take risk at
> such an early stage.Firstly I am going to point out two things:
> 1.Lisp sadly lacks good library support . That means sometimes very
> ordinary stuff which can be done very easily in say Java will take
> quite a lot of time in lisp. Say you need a functionality to do
> something quickly ,you simply take an appropriate function from a well
> documented library. Creating your own libraries is not a solution when
> stuff needs to be done within a deadline as expected by business
> clients.
> 2.Lisp is not a mainstream language and is hardly been used in the
> software industry. Just being good enough is not sufficient . The lisp
> on your resume is not going to make much impact .Ron Garret who
> programmed in lisp for twenty years and has also written some highly
> referenced papers on lisp says that his adoption of lisp as a career
> option destroyed his career as a programmer.
>
> My question is addressed to people who are currently working in
> software industry and have got many years of experience working across
> different domains. Is it a practical thing to continue working as a
> lisp programmer? I know from my limited experience that lisp has got
> some library support in web development domain. My second question is
> how good is library support and job prospects outside web?
We'll be talking a lot about this at the International Lisp Conference
2009. It's a topic of great interest to members of the Lisp
community.
Even if you don't end up using Lisp at your job, your two years are
not wasted. Learning Lisp teaches you very useful concepts, many of
which (not all) can be easily applied in other languages.