http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
..it is in Norwegian:
Søk = Search
Etternavn = Last name
Fornvan = First name
Fritekst = Free text
Nytt søk = New search
Neste side = Next page
Forrige side = Previous page
From: Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: What websites use Lisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2008dec08-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <···········@gmail.com>
> http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
> ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.
When I go there using lynx, I see a blank screen with one non-blank line:
JavaScript needs to be enabled.
Please fix your Web site to use Lisp instead of JavaScript for the
work, so that it will be usable from here. Then get back to me on
the topic below:
> ..it is in Norwegian:
> S=C3=B8k =3D Search
> Etternavn =3D Last name
> Fornvan =3D First name
> Fritekst =3D Free text
> =20
> Nytt s=C3=B8k =3D New search
> Neste side =3D Next page
> Forrige side =3D Previous page
(The Unix program 'more' generated the hexadecimal codes above from
non-USASCII bytes in your newsgroup article. I have software to
parse those 'more' codes to produce the correct 8-bit bytes you
actually posted, then to diagnose whether that's UTF-8 or Latin-1
encoding, then convert either to UniCodePoints, then convert any
that it knows to brace pictures and the rest to {u+xxxx} notation,
but it's not handy at the moment.)
That's close enough to German/Dutch roots that it's actually not
terribly difficult to learn. I currently have Web-based CAI to
teach English Spanish and Mandarin (pinyan), and am planning to
include Chinese characters also. Since several active/productive
people on the net are Norwegian, and the composer of two of my
three most-favorite classical works (Piano concerto, Sonata) is
also Norwegian, maybe you could (after you figure out how to make
your Web sites lynx-compatible) help me include Norwegian? Note
that for Spanish I already have invented what I call "brace
pictures" to represent accented Latin-1 and other characters within
US-ASCII text, in order to make languages with accented characters
(Spanish, French, German, and also now Norwegian perhaps)
accessible to US-ASCII browsers such as I use here. See
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/es1.html>
for my ask-for-help (for English/Spanish translation pairs) plea,
which allows you to choose to get output in either UTF-8 or brace
pictures, so that you can see what I'm talking about, what I mean
by "brace pictures".
OT: I'm also trying to figure out a good system for entering
Chinese characters if you know what a character looks like but you
don't know how it is pronounced, such as might be useful if you see
something in a Chinese newspaper (hardcopy) and wish to have it
translated to English. Such an entry system would also be useful in
a CAI program that requires you to draw the Chinese character that
has a specified/given meaning, to prove you really know that
character, rather than using multiple-choice where you might just
guess which of the five characters is the correct one by
eliminating the other four you already know have other meanings.
The Chinese-character input system installed on MS-Windows requires
you type the pinyan in order to generate the character, which is of
no use if you don't know how the character is pronounced. A rough
idea of one way to do it is sketched here, selecting strokes one by
one, by multiple choice, to build a character:
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/ChineseInput/start1.html>
An alternative idea I haven't prototyped yet, because it requires a
PHP or CGI application that is rather "smart", which requires more
work than I have time for currently, would be for the user to check
just the corners of a new stroke and have the program guess how to
"connect the dots" from upper/left to bottom/right to draw the new
stroke. On graphics browser with mouse, checking corners would be
best for the user, but in lynx or on cellphone with only
cursor-stepping and type-in, multiple-choice would be best. I
wonder if anyone can think of an even better idea for either kind
of browser platform?
VOT: Really stupid brainwork: Some church in Germany, shown on
DW-TV just now, planted a tree upside down, but it grew, and now
the church claims that's proof of life after death.
On 2008-12-08, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
<·············@teh.intarweb.org> wrote:
>> From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <···········@gmail.com>
>> http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
>> ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
>
> This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.
You have to send Javascript to a browser, because that's what they understand
as a scripting language. Javascript is needed to have some semi-intelligent
behavior in form widgets and the like.
You could send Lisp in the HTTP response, but it wouldn't do much good, would
it, now?
Javascript in the output of a website doesn't imply that the server is
executing Javascript, any more than HTML in the output implies that the server
is executing HTML.
If he removed the Javascript, would you believe that the site is HTML-based
rather than Lisp-based?
Doh?
Kaz Kylheku <········@gmail.com> writes:
> On 2008-12-08, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> <·············@teh.intarweb.org> wrote:
>>> From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <···········@gmail.com>
>>> http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
>>> ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
>>
>> This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.
>
> You have to send Javascript to a browser, because that's what they understand
> as a scripting language. Javascript is needed to have some semi-intelligent
> behavior in form widgets and the like.
>
> You could send Lisp in the HTTP response, but it wouldn't do much good, would
> it, now?
Unless you included in your html a:
<script language="javascript" type="text/javascript" link="/common-lisp.js">
and if you take care to cross-compile this common-lisp.js from a
common-lisp.lisp with another CL implementation, then you can even claim
that your web site is 100% lisp.
> Javascript in the output of a website doesn't imply that the server is
> executing Javascript, any more than HTML in the output implies that the server
> is executing HTML.
>
> If he removed the Javascript, would you believe that the site is HTML-based
> rather than Lisp-based?
>
> Doh?
Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets. We
have lisp in the kernel (the schemix module), and people can be
persuaded to install flash plug-ins so why not a lisp plug-in?
;-)
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
From: Raffael Cavallaro
Subject: Re: What websites use Lisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <ghmvg4$sq4$1@aioe.org>
On 2008-12-09 18:00:10 -0500, ···@informatimago.com (Pascal J.
Bourguignon) said:
> Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets. We
> have lisp in the kernel (the schemix module), and people can be
> persuaded to install flash plug-ins so why not a lisp plug-in?
Maybe a hybrid of ecl and Google's Native Client?
--
Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.
From: Patrick May
Subject: Re: What websites use Lisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <m21vwgq139.fsf@spe.com>
···@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) writes:
> Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets.
Laplets?
I'll get my coat.
pjm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc. | Large scale, mission-critical, distributed OO
| systems design and implementation.
http://www.spe.com/pjm | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)
On 2008-12-09, Pascal J. Bourguignon <···@informatimago.com> wrote:
> Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets. We
> have lisp in the kernel (the schemix module), and people can be
> persuaded to install flash plug-ins so why not a lisp plug-in?
They can! Just put up a dialog box saying ``You're seconds away from
viewing the porn; just click OK to install the codec''.
On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 10:46 -0800, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
wrote:
> > From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <···········@gmail.com>
> > http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
> > ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
>
> This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.
No. The application is written in 100% Lisp. There is not a single line
of custom or inlined or whatever JS-code in that application. It is all
done using manipulation of higher-level Lisp "widgets" (CLOS instances).
> When I go there using lynx, I see a blank screen with one non-blank line:
> JavaScript needs to be enabled.
This is obviously not written for the "Lynx platform" in particular. I'm
targeting the W3C platform, and it includes the NOSCRIPT tag among other
things:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/scripts.html#h-18.3.1
I'm not going to say I follow W3C and ECMA (JavaScript-standard) 100% in
all places (yet..(#1)), but I'm close and I have 99% coverage (IE, FF,
webkit, Opera) when I do not do URL-manipulation like I do in this
particular application. URL-manipulation like done in this one only
works in FF and IE for now(#2); that's around 92-95% coverage depending
on where you look.
> Please..
No. You have already freely voted with your browser and you ended up at
0.1%; the application is explicitly informing you of this via the
NOSCRIPT feature. Others have voted with their browsers (which _have_
proper W3C and ECMA support; good things wrt. competition
(Flash/Silverlight) and what people actually want wrt. the Internet) and
they ended up at 99% and they are also paying (voting, again) me money.
> ..use Lisp instead of JavaScript for the..
The application is written in 100% Lisp. The (interesting) JavaScript is
generated by a Lisp library. I include a static jquery.js file (not
interesting) to get rid of some of the browser-bugs; again, the rest,
the actual application stuff, is generated dynamically 100% by Lisp.
> ..work, so that it will be usable from here.
No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888
Stuff like this is what Some Interesting People want from applications
(not web-documents, but web-applications). They do not care about what
_you_ want or prefer. ..but you do get to use Lisp.
#1: ..and W3C as a platform is evolving; I'm working "close to the
edge" in some places. I know I'm sloppy with the already
well-defined or implemented details wrt. standards in some places,
those are bugs, not features; opposite of NOSCRIPT, which is a
feature.
#2: Note that this is caused by browser bugs; it is supposed to work
based on W3C/ECMA standards.
..i don't have time to respond to the rest of your post .. there are
many ways to read mouse events and generate graphics based on this..
* Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:36:35 +0100:
|
| No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
| me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
| in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
| create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
| work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
| reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
|
| http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888
I can't see this --- not going to enable JS to see it.
None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
you are using lisp for.
Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
--
Madhu
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 19:44 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:36:35 +0100:
>
> |
> | No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
> | me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
> | in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
> | create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
> | work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
> | reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
> |
> | http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888
>
> I can't see this ---
Yeah, this is by design.
> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
> you are using lisp for.
>
> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
* Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:35:16 +0100:
| On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 19:44 +0530, Madhu wrote:
|> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
|> Wrote on Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:36:35 +0100:
|>
|> |
|> | No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
|> | me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
|> | in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
|> | create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
|> | work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
|> | reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
|> |
|> | http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888
|>
|> I can't see this ---
|
| Yeah, this is by design.
|
|
|> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
|> you are using lisp for.
|>
|> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
|
| No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
|
| Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
| its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
| added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
|
| http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
Luckily I'll not be seeing it as I can't stand dealing with google
groups web interface
--
Madhu
PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 22:03 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:35:16 +0100:
>
> | On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 19:44 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> |> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> |> Wrote on Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:36:35 +0100:
> |>
> |> |
> |> | No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
> |> | me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
> |> | in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
> |> | create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
> |> | work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
> |> | reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
> |> |
> |> | http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888
> |>
> |> I can't see this ---
> |
> | Yeah, this is by design.
> |
> |
> |> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
> |> you are using lisp for.
> |>
> |> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
> |
> | No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
> |
> | Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
> | its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
> | added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
> |
> | http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
>
> Luckily I'll not be seeing it as I can't stand dealing with google
> groups web interface
here is a snapshot (but i'm still working on this text):
* Ability to manipulate HTML attributes, CSS properties and add
both server and/or client side callbacks for DOM events in
real-time directly via the REPL or anywhere in application
(lisp) code. There is no HTTP request or response to think
about. No page refresh is needed to see updates.
* Instead of manipulating HTML and CSS directly, one can use the
already existing widgets in SW or there is machinery in place to
create ones own widgets. The widgets maintain state on page
refresh or when they are removed from the UI and added back
again. Again no page refresh is needed to see updates.
* Support for browser back button and browser history. Widget
state can be serialized to the browser URL, then be serialized
back the other way as the user presses the back and forward
buttons in the browser. Continuations is not used to do this.
* Ability to bookmark or link to the state of an application or a
user-defined set of widgets.
* A single widget instance can be visible in multiple browsers,
browser windows or tabs at the same time. Sharing a container
widget between multiple users is an example of this. The
container might function as a chat-pane or tab in a chat
application, and as new child nodes or messages are added to
this container they become visible for all users viewing this
shared container widget. This happens in real-time, again with
no page-refresh needed.
* Provides an (optional) work-around with regards to the two
connection limit of HTTP.
* Ability to transmit custom JavaScript code from the server to
the client at any time.
* MVC-support. A change to a Model updates any Viewers of it in
real-time. No page-refresh needed. See the example above.
* All widgets and HTML/CSS properties (values in forms etc.) of
any active user/session/browser-tab can be inspected and
manipulated at any time. Still no page-refresh needed.
* It scales. The brand new SW-HTTP back-end has been tested with
20 000 concurrent full-duplex ("Comet") connections.
> --
> Madhu
>
> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 22:03 +0530, Madhu wrote:
>
>>* Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
>>Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:35:16 +0100:
>>
>>| On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 19:44 +0530, Madhu wrote:
>>|> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
>>|> Wrote on Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:36:35 +0100:
>>|>
>>|> |
>>|> | No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
>>|> | me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
>>|> | in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
>>|> | create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
>>|> | work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
>>|> | reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
>>|> |
>>|> | http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888
>>|>
>>|> I can't see this ---
>>|
>>| Yeah, this is by design.
>>|
>>|
>>|> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
>>|> you are using lisp for.
>>|>
>>|> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
>>|
>>| No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
>>|
>>| Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
>>| its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
>>| added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
>>|
>>| http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb
>>
>>Luckily I'll not be seeing it as I can't stand dealing with google
>>groups web interface
>
>
> here is a snapshot (but i'm still working on this text):
>
>
> * Ability to manipulate HTML attributes, CSS properties and add
> both server and/or client side callbacks for DOM events in
> real-time directly via the REPL or anywhere in application
> (lisp) code. There is no HTTP request or response to think
> about. No page refresh is needed to see updates.
> * Instead of manipulating HTML and CSS directly, one can use the
> already existing widgets in SW or there is machinery in place to
> create ones own widgets. The widgets maintain state on page
> refresh or when they are removed from the UI and added back
> again. Again no page refresh is needed to see updates.
> * Support for browser back button and browser history. Widget
> state can be serialized to the browser URL, then be serialized
> back the other way as the user presses the back and forward
> buttons in the browser. Continuations is not used to do this.
> * Ability to bookmark or link to the state of an application or a
> user-defined set of widgets.
> * A single widget instance can be visible in multiple browsers,
> browser windows or tabs at the same time. Sharing a container
> widget between multiple users is an example of this. The
> container might function as a chat-pane or tab in a chat
> application, and as new child nodes or messages are added to
> this container they become visible for all users viewing this
> shared container widget. This happens in real-time, again with
> no page-refresh needed.
> * Provides an (optional) work-around with regards to the two
> connection limit of HTTP.
> * Ability to transmit custom JavaScript code from the server to
> the client at any time.
> * MVC-support. A change to a Model updates any Viewers of it in
> real-time. No page-refresh needed. See the example above.
> * All widgets and HTML/CSS properties (values in forms etc.) of
> any active user/session/browser-tab can be inspected and
> manipulated at any time. Still no page-refresh needed.
> * It scales. The brand new SW-HTTP back-end has been tested with
> 20 000 concurrent full-duplex ("Comet") connections.
>
>
>
Hey, looks like you have been busy. Congrats on trotting out SW-HTTP,
might be time for me to take a.... wait. this is comp.lang.lisp...
What, no Cells? And I have to use a /browser/? Hellloooooooo?
hth,kxo
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 13:00 -0500, Kenny wrote:
> Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> >
> > here is a snapshot (but i'm still working on this text):
> > ....*snip*....
> >
>
> Hey, looks like you have been busy. Congrats on trotting out SW-HTTP,
> might be time for me to take a....
Yeeaaah .. hm .. it should be possible to port SW-HTTP to ACL, LW or
CLISP.
Meanwhile SW will be going into "cleanup-mode". There is a ton of cruft
I can get rid of now. The example code snippets needs a couple of
updates and fixes (mostly search-and-replace stuff...).
> wait. this is comp.lang.lisp...
...I keep forgetting... crash-site filled with zombies :/
> What, no Cells?
Not yet. Can't you get some of your minions or hounds to port SW-HTTP?
Then you can integrate Cells exactly as you want it. Comet included.
..I'm probably greenspunning parts of Cells in some places now.
> And I have to use a /browser/? Hellloooooooo?
rofl, yeah... There is a storm and I'm fighting windmills coming from
all directions.
It is probably a mistake; even if I "win" (or "lose"!) some argument on
teh Interwebz .. it doesn't matter in the end. _My_ Lisp software needs
a UI. It's that simple, and it'll happen no matter what.
Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 13:00 -0500, Kenny wrote:
>
>>Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
>>
>>>here is a snapshot (but i'm still working on this text):
>>>....*snip*....
>>>
>>
>>Hey, looks like you have been busy. Congrats on trotting out SW-HTTP,
>>might be time for me to take a....
>
>
> Yeeaaah .. hm .. it should be possible to port SW-HTTP to ACL, LW or
> CLISP.
>
> Meanwhile SW will be going into "cleanup-mode". There is a ton of cruft
> I can get rid of now. The example code snippets needs a couple of
> updates and fixes (mostly search-and-replace stuff...).
>
>
>
>>wait. this is comp.lang.lisp...
>
>
> ...I keep forgetting... crash-site filled with zombies :/
>
yes, quite the ship of fools, great fun for hanging out, not so much for
serious Lisp.
>
>
>>What, no Cells?
>
>
> Not yet. Can't you get some of your minions or hounds to port SW-HTTP?
> Then you can integrate Cells exactly as you want it. Comet included.
That's OK, that was mock outrage, just trying to keep up with the other
denizens of this joint.
>
> ..I'm probably greenspunning parts of Cells in some places now.
>
Yep.
>
>
>>And I have to use a /browser/? Hellloooooooo?
>
>
> rofl, yeah... There is a storm and I'm fighting windmills coming from
> all directions.
>
> It is probably a mistake; even if I "win" (or "lose"!) some argument on
> teh Interwebz .. it doesn't matter in the end. _My_ Lisp software needs
> a UI. It's that simple, and it'll happen no matter what.
>
I recommend a quick trigger -- anyone who wants to argue, just move on.
I am swamped these days, but I'll try a quick build some day on ACL and
see what happens.
oh, btw: you just need a GUI? Then for the love of god stop sharing your
code /at all/. There are these factors of three... starts with sharing
it with /one/ person. By the time you get to open source it is 27 or 81,
I forget.
cheers.
kt
* Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:25:23 +0100:
|> |
|> |> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
|> |> you are using lisp for.
|> |>
|> |> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
|> |
|> | No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
|> |
|> | Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
|> | its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
|> | added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
|> |
|
| * Ability to manipulate HTML attributes, CSS properties and add
| both server and/or client side callbacks for DOM events in
| real-time directly via the REPL or anywhere in application
| (lisp) code. There is no HTTP request or response to think
| about. No page refresh is needed to see updates.
etc. etc.
These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
I'm sure the requirements, if genuine (i.e. if the requirements did not
include "Must use Web2.0"), can be solved without using your framework
or using the technologies which your framework implements, which makes
this list irrelevant.
|> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
| no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
ads/etc
--
Madhu
On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 06:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:25:23 +0100:
> |> |
> |> |> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
> |> |> you are using lisp for.
> |> |>
> |> |> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
> |> |
> |> | No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
> |> |
> |> | Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
> |> | its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
> |> | added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
> |> |
> |
> | * Ability to manipulate HTML attributes, CSS properties and add
> | both server and/or client side callbacks for DOM events in
> | real-time directly via the REPL or anywhere in application
> | (lisp) code. There is no HTTP request or response to think
> | about. No page refresh is needed to see updates.
> etc. etc.
>
> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
Uh, are you asking for the post?
> I'm sure
..you're wrong.
> |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
> | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
>
> No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
> website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
> the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
> ads/etc
Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
What .. the .. fuck. Do you people want?
Lars Rune N�stdal <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Madhu wrote:
| > |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
| > | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
| >
| > No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
| > website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
| > the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
| > ads/etc
|
| Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
| no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
|
| What [do] you people want?
+---------------
For a website to deliver enough of its content *WITHOUT* requiring
that the user open his browser to JavaScript -- and thus open his
system to one of the largest malware vectors extant today -- so that
the user at least has a way to judge whether the content is valuable
enough to him to risk the exposure.
And, yes, I know that some media (e.g., SwF, YT, etc.) can't be
delivered without enabling JavaScript, but at least allow the user
access to the full *textual* content of the site [including navigation]
without it!!
Finally, delivering ads w/o JavaScript is trivial -- that non sequitor
don't hunt.
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 21:07 -0600, Rob Warnock wrote:
> Lars Rune Nstdal <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> +---------------
> | Madhu wrote:
> | > |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
> | > | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
> | >
> | > No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
> | > website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
> | > the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
> | > ads/etc
> |
> | Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
> | no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
> |
> | What [do] you people want?
> +---------------
>
> For a website to deliver enough of its content *WITHOUT* requiring
> that the user open his browser to JavaScript -- and thus open his
> system to one of the largest malware vectors extant today -- so that
> the user at least has a way to judge whether the content is valuable
> enough to him to risk the exposure.
Yes, some people want this, and the NOSCRIPT tag can be used for this.
> And, yes, I know that some media (e.g., SwF, YT, etc.) can't be
> delivered without enabling JavaScript
Hm, I'm pretty sure Flash ("media"?) runs without JavaScript enabled,
but the navigation or UI on some of these sites probably require
JavaScript, yeah.
Note that the example Madhu is looking for is not possible to do even
remotely proper without JavaScript, but this is not because Flash is
required or used.
> but at least allow the user access to the full *textual* content of
> the site [including navigation] without it!!
Yes, the NOSCRIPT tag again.
Lars Rune N�stdal <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Rob Warnock wrote:
| > And, yes, I know that some media (e.g., SwF, YT, etc.) can't be
| > delivered without enabling JavaScript
|
| Hm, I'm pretty sure Flash ("media"?) runs without JavaScript enabled...
+---------------
Oops! Yes, it seems you're right. I'd never looked closely at
what SwF (Shockwave/Flash) requires, since I block it anyway[1],
but peeking at the source of a couple of simple cases it would
appear that all you need is a bit of HTML:
<object ... >
<param ... /> <!--- As needed... -->
<embed src="foo.swf" pluginspage={URL to get plugin} ... >
</embed>
</object>
-Rob
[1] I *hate* the user interface [or rather, the lack of one!].
Plus, it's not even *available* for the browser I use most. (*sigh*)
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 21:07 -0600, Rob Warnock wrote:
> Finally, delivering ads w/o JavaScript is trivial -- that non sequitor
> don't hunt.
Wait; is this addressed at me?
This was exactly my point!
If your _goal_ is to "deliver ads" then it _might_ be possible to do it
the way you want to do it without JavaScript.
If your _goal_ is to deliver applications then it _might_ be possible to
do it the way you want(#1) to do it without JavaScript.
JavaScript makes both "good" and "bad" things easier to do, and in some
cases it makes the thing you're trying to do actually _possible_ to do.
Again; some things really are 100% impossible to do on the "W3C
platform" without JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap".
#1: But for applications, the "want" moves towards a "need" with an
added "there are no other options" to it.
* Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:
|> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
|> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
| Uh, are you asking for the post?
You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
way to solve it.
|> I'm sure
|
| ..you're wrong.
Whatever. I see no real requirements worth addressing.
|> |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
|> | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
|>
|> No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
|> website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
|> the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
|> ads/etc
|
| Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
| no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
It appears your job is to force everyone to use javascript, and making
it more ubiquitous, make no mistake any rewards you receive are for
accomplishing this task and not for solving some engineering problem
(with lisp, say)
| What .. the .. fuck. Do you people want?
uhhhh. i dont know. Avoid wasting time getting sucked in to your
"Framework"? Stop you from wasting our time with junk and making
irrelevant claims made here?
--
Madhu
On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 07:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:
>
> |> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
> |> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
>
> | Uh, are you asking for the post?
>
> You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
> way to solve it.
Then do it.
>
> |> I'm sure
> |
> | ..you're wrong.
>
> Whatever. I see no...
Yes, you see nothing.
> |> |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
> |> | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
> |>
> |> No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
> |> website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
> |> the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
> |> ads/etc
> |
> | Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
> | no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
>
> It appears your job is to force everyone to use javascript, and making
> it more ubiquitous, make no mistake any rewards you receive are for
> accomplishing this task and not for solving some engineering problem
> (with lisp, say)
It appears your job is to force everyone to use HTML, and making it more
ubiquitous, make no mistake any rewards you receive are for
accomplishing this task and not for solving some engineering problem
(with lisp, say).
> | What .. the .. fuck. Do you people want?
>
> uhhhh. i dont know.
Exactly.
* Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:27:04 +0100:
| On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 07:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
|> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
|> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:
|>
|> |> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
|> |> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
|>
|> | Uh, are you asking for the post?
|>
|> You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
|> way to solve it.
|
| Then do it.
Where is the problem?
I've been asking for the requirements of the sensor network application
you said you had. I havent seen any of that.
Instead the problems I see being being addressed are on the lines of
"HOW DO I SELL ADS ON BEHALF OF MY GOOGLE MASTERS ON THEIR WEBSITES BY
DISPLAYING MY CONTENT" or "HOW DO I FORCE EVERY USER TO USE THIRD PARTY
CLIENT SOFTWARE THEY HAVE LITTLE CONTROL OVER" "HOW DO I GET THE USER TO
GO AW GEE I LOOKED" "HOW DO I GET CUSTOMERS TO CLICK ON GOOGLE WEBSITES"
I'm through.
--
Madhu
On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 08:12 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:27:04 +0100:
>
> | On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 07:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> |> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <··························@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> |> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:
> |>
> |> |> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
> |> |> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
> |>
> |> | Uh, are you asking for the post?
> |>
> |> You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
> |> way to solve it.
> |
> | Then do it.
>
>
> Where is the problem?
Where is the solution?
> Instead the problems I see being being addressed are on the lines of
>
> "HOW DO I SELL ADS ON BEHALF OF MY GOOGLE MASTERS ON THEIR WEBSITES BY
> DISPLAYING MY CONTENT"
Yes, how? How do you or they do this without "forcing everyone" to use
HTML, or JavaScript?
> or "HOW DO I FORCE EVERY USER TO USE THIRD PARTY
> CLIENT SOFTWARE THEY HAVE LITTLE CONTROL OVER"
Yes, how? You or I can do this, or you or I can not do this; both things
are possible.
> I'm through.
When did you start?
(i.e., you cannot "win" or "lose" this - because i do not care either
way)
* Madhu <··············@moon.robolove.meer.net> :
Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:12:48 +0530:
| | Then do it.
|
| Where is the problem?
|
Don't bother replying, because I'm not interested anymore. I usually
ask three times before giving up, and I've asked more than that here
--
Madhu