From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Lisp at work
Date: 
Message-ID: <4899dd1c$0$29519$607ed4bc@cv.net>
Francogrex wrote:
> This is a bit of a rant. Recently at work we had to quickly tackle a
> problem that involved more or less complex data analysis. Since I've
> been learning common lisp for a little while now, I decided to give it
> a try in lisp and honest to god, I could solve it with a little prog
> within a few hours. I showed the results to the boss in a meeting but
> some of my collegues started jumping up and down saying that Lisp is
> not a validated system in our firm and we'll have to do it in X
> software (commercial name omitted to avoid slander) because X is great
> it's validated and controlled etc...the boss unfortunately agreed with
> them. It's been 2 weeks today that they've been mucking around in X
> and haven't found anything that comes close to what I wrote in lisp...
> meanwhile we're losing time and money. This is very frustrating to me
> and remind me of the article Paul Graham wrote about Lisp and how it
> is not accepted by some.

On your own time add OpenGL /and/ OpenAL and create a singing dancing 
quadruple-featured treatment then go in, lead with "on my own time", and 
ask the boss how hard is the validation process anyway? ie, Win without 
fighting (the validation thing). Ask Franz or Lispworks if they will 
help with that (the validation thing). Or once your boss hears you /not/ 
fighting the validation thing /and/ standing there with a solution /and/ 
it has been three weeks (you'll need a week to convert to Whiz Bang 
mode) he might just say, "F*ck validation, the project is yours, let's 
pick you an office on a good corner of the building...".

kenny

From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Lisp at work
Date: 
Message-ID: <489a128a$0$7359$607ed4bc@cv.net>
Francogrex wrote:
> On Aug 6, 7:19 pm, Kenny <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On your own time add OpenGL /and/ OpenAL and create a singing dancing
>> quadruple-featured treatment then go in, lead with "on my own time", and
>> ask the boss how hard is the validation process anyway? ie, Win without
>> fighting (the validation thing). Ask Franz or Lispworks if they will
>> help with that (the validation thing)...
> 
> I can always ask. But I'll need the buy-in of our IT group as well,
> it's a lot of paperwork. 

<g> I am hoping they commission you to do a prototype to demonstrate the 
merits and decide whether the validation process is justified.

> ...The issue is also that we infrequently have
> such difficult situations as we have now and most of the time our run-
> of-the-mill software X is more than enough.

No doubt. But you may be unaware of Tilton's Law: The first time you run 
into something is only the first time you will run into it. Meanwhile, 
even if rarely used, when I need a Torx(tm) screwdriver I /really/ need 
a Torx screwdriver. Why not expand the IT toolkit (or weapons bank if 
you want to get all macho)?


  I'm afraid trying to
> convince them now to adopt something like lisp for our dept. would be
> analogous to trying to convince them that we'll need to buy and use an
> F16 combat airplain to go to the local store which is within a walking
> distance (The IT guys are not that dumb).

Oh, I figured that one out over Cells marketing. Explain to them that it 
is more fun. Bring noisemakers and funny hats to the meeting. Point out 
that everyone loves these agile languages like Ruby and Python and Lisp 
is the mother of them all. It will boost morale in the department -- 
everyone likes learning new things -- and enhance retention. As for why 
not use the other agile languages: Lisp is compiled. And it has a 
standard. And multiple vendors.

hth, kenny

ps. You did see my beach rant, yes? Get back in there, man! k
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: Lisp at work
Date: 
Message-ID: <m17iatmg9i.fsf@gazonk.vestre.net>
Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> everyone likes learning new things

Your belief in mankind is touching, Kenny, but I'm afraid that you're
very wrong here :-(
-- 
  (espen)
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: Lisp at work
Date: 
Message-ID: <489aaf2a$0$29505$607ed4bc@cv.net>
Espen Vestre wrote:
> Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> everyone likes learning new things
> 
> Your belief in mankind is touching, Kenny, but I'm afraid that you're
> very wrong here :-(

You are forgetting to schedule the training off-site. On Tahiti.

It depends on what X is. If it is Java people know it has peaked and 
they won't want to be left behind when the mojo moves onto The Next 
Great Thing.

This is the flipside of "everyone hates change" as when they see the bow 
dip beneath the waves and start actively seeking jobs that offer 
training in TNGT. So you are not wrong but I have seen this quest for 
TNGT in Tall Buildings more than once and that is what I am suggesting 
the OP sell to management.

k
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: Lisp at work
Date: 
Message-ID: <m1prolkxlw.fsf@gazonk.vestre.net>
Kenny <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> You are forgetting to schedule the training off-site. On Tahiti.

Ah, yes, you mean "everyone likes to go on a free trip, get drunk,
betray their spouses, etc., and pretend it's all just for education"
:-)

(Sorry. I'm not really that cynical. I'm happy as a clam, just home
 from a nice summer vacation, and Sonic Youth is playing in Oslo
 today. Yuhuuu!)

> It depends on what X is. If it is Java people know it has peaked and
> they won't want to be left behind when the mojo moves onto The Next
> Great Thing.

Good point.

> So you are not wrong but I have seen this quest for TNGT in Tall
> Buildings more than once and that is what I am suggesting the OP
> sell to management.

Agreed. 
-- 
  (espen)
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: Lisp at work
Date: 
Message-ID: <m13alhmfyh.fsf@gazonk.vestre.net>
Francogrex <······@grex.org> writes:

> The issue is also that we infrequently have such difficult
> situations as we have now and most of the time our run- of-the-mill
> software X is more than enough.

Ah, that makes the situation seem less bleak than what I inferred from
your initial rant.

But when the need for something lispy has shown up once, it tends to
pop up again, so Pascal's advice is probably good: Wait for the next
opportunity to show off.
-- 
  (espen)