Hi all,
I had an occasion today to learn more about how the (Java) competition
evolved in the area of the web development. The occasion was a GWT
(Google Web Toolkit) seminar in Sofia.
GWT is a tool that enables the developers to write "full blown" (with
a few limitations) Java code for the front-end and the back-end and to
marshal back-end Java objects to the front-end and (perhaps)
reverse. GWT translates the code for the front-end to portable
JavaScript and HTML. In this transformation the "know-how" in the UI
is left in the development code, comparatively safe from reverse
engineering. What's more a Java debugger can be used in the front-end.
Although the framework has a lot of problems waiting to be dealt with,
Google has put the foundations of something I find powerful,
unfortunately only for the Java developers.
So I wondered do we (in the CL camp) have functionality that resembles
GWT? Although Parenscript enables us to write web applications in CL
only, the Parenscript code is more machine then human (more JavaScript
then Lisp) and it lacks the above mentioned features of GWT. My
question to more experienced one's, is what would take to have
something like GWT and do you think it would be worth it, considering
the future possibility to have CL enabled web browser through CLR,
JVM, Flash or even - a Common Lisp plug-in?
Thanks in advance and good night,
--
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Kamen TOMOV wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I had an occasion today to learn more about how the (Java) competition
> evolved in the area of the web development. The occasion was a GWT
> (Google Web Toolkit) seminar in Sofia.
>
> GWT is a tool that enables the developers to write "full blown" (with
> a few limitations) Java code for the front-end and the back-end and to
> marshal back-end Java objects to the front-end and (perhaps)
> reverse. GWT translates the code for the front-end to portable
> JavaScript and HTML. In this transformation the "know-how" in the UI
> is left in the development code, comparatively safe from reverse
> engineering. What's more a Java debugger can be used in the front-end.
Sounds like Manuel Serrano's HOP to me - though that's in Scheme, not in
Common Lisp.
Pascal
--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
From: Kamen TOMOV
Subject: Re: CL web development resembling GWT
Date:
Message-ID: <ufy1032k1.fsf@cybuild.com>
On Thu, Sep 27 2007, Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Kamen TOMOV wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I had an occasion today to learn more about how the (Java)
>> competition evolved in the area of the web development. The
>> occasion was a GWT (Google Web Toolkit) seminar in Sofia.
>>
>> GWT is a tool that enables the developers to write "full blown"
>> (with a few limitations) Java code for the front-end and the
>> back-end and to marshal back-end Java objects to the front-end and
>> (perhaps) reverse. GWT translates the code for the front-end to
>> portable JavaScript and HTML. In this transformation the "know-how"
>> in the UI is left in the development code, comparatively safe from
>> reverse engineering. What's more a Java debugger can be used in the
>> front-end.
>
> Sounds like Manuel Serrano's HOP to me - though that's in Scheme,
> not in Common Lisp.
Thanks - I found certain similarities with HOP:
A single programming language can be used for the implementation of
the both, the server and the client engines. HOP seems to support
strong collaboration between the server and client engines, perhaps
even better than that in GWT. The HOP language is compiled to
JavaScript which fulfills another requirement.
Anyway, so much with the similarites.
First of all HOP is a programming language [1]. It is not Scheme, it
is implemented in it. Unlike in Java and CL one can not reuse the rich
set of libraries and tools available in both platforms. What's more
important it seems that HOP is a continuation based platform, whereas
GWT is not. As such HOP is is not scalable - e.g. it does not support
large numbers of simultaneous connections [2]. Finally, I doubt one
can use a native (Scheme/HOP) debugger for the front-end.
[1] http://hop.inria.fr/
[2] http://hop.inria.fr/#home-notepad=np:5
All in all Scheme is be prefered compared to JavaScript or Java, but
I'm not sure I find the features I am looking for.
Regards,
--
�����
Kamen TOMOV wrote:
> ... , considering
> the future possibility to have CL enabled web browser through CLR,
> JVM, Flash or even - a Common Lisp plug-in?
>
You can't be thinking now about the future possible technologies when
doing a web project, you just need to start working at it right now and
deliver it yesterday. Also I wouldn't expect too much about the adoption
rate of a common lisp plugin =)
Sacha
From: Kamen TOMOV
Subject: Re: CL web development resembling GWT
Date:
Message-ID: <usl50f6p5.fsf@cybuild.com>
On Thu, Sep 27 2007, Sacha wrote:
> Kamen TOMOV wrote:
>> ... , considering
>> the future possibility to have CL enabled web browser through CLR,
>> JVM, Flash or even - a Common Lisp plug-in?
>>
>
> You can't be thinking now about the future possible technologies
> when doing a web project, you just need to start working at it right
> now and deliver it yesterday. Also I wouldn't expect too much about
> the adoption rate of a common lisp plugin =)
Correct, but I'm thinking about my next project. Unfortunately, you
might be right about the adoption rate. Even if there is a CL plugin
and a set of customers that are willing to install it, a CL software
vendor must support the crowd that is not.
--
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