Mark Tarver wrote:
> Is � a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have � on my
> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
I think it was standard on my Commodore 64; but its definitely not on
my current "US PC" keyboard.
Here's all the line-noise I can type directly.
···@#$%^&*()-_=+[{]}\|;:'",<.>/?
- Daniel
Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> Is � a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have � on my
> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
I haven't seen a key for that character on a U.S. keyboard in about
twenty years. Can't remember if it appeared on DEC terminal keyboards,
but it was definitely available on the IBM consoles on the university
mainframe.
-- Dan Muller
On Nov 24, 2:17 am, Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> Is ¬ a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have £ on my
> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
>
> Mark
Keyboards in Macedonia are usually like this http://www.skyline-eng.com/ebay/emkb2422.jpg
with tilde instead of ¬ . I've seen that character in a box that was
bought from England.
Slobodan
Den Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:33:23 -0800 skrev Slobodan Blazeski:
> Keyboards in Macedonia are usually like this
> http://www.skyline-eng.com/ebay/emkb2422.jpg with tilde instead of � .
> I've seen that character in a box that was bought from England.
This is just standard US-QWERTY layout, ie. The One True Layout as God
intended it (I'm strongly of opinion that "national" keyboard layouts are
a sin and any attempts at making one should result in a prompt
crucifixion of the perpertrator, to send sufficiently strong message to
any would-be followers).
However, I'm curious as to how is the Cyrillic input specified for
Macedonian. Is it another layout that's just not denoted on the keys, or
is it done using some (presumably natural) mapping from Latin to Cyrillic
letters? Or is it a full-blown IME with phonetic values perhaps?
Cheers,
Maciej
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:32:23 +0000 (UTC), Maciej Katafiasz <········@gmail.com>
tried to confuse everyone with this message:
>Den Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:33:23 -0800 skrev Slobodan Blazeski:
>
>> Keyboards in Macedonia are usually like this
>> http://www.skyline-eng.com/ebay/emkb2422.jpg with tilde instead of � .
>> I've seen that character in a box that was bought from England.
>
>This is just standard US-QWERTY layout, ie. The One True Layout as God
>intended it (I'm strongly of opinion that "national" keyboard layouts are
>a sin and any attempts at making one should result in a prompt
>crucifixion of the perpertrator, to send sufficiently strong message to
>any would-be followers).
>
>However, I'm curious as to how is the Cyrillic input specified for
>Macedonian. Is it another layout that's just not denoted on the keys, or
>is it done using some (presumably natural) mapping from Latin to Cyrillic
>letters? Or is it a full-blown IME with phonetic values perhaps?
>
My Russian keyboard is almost exactly the same but there are Cyrillic letters
written in red on most keys. The layouts are switched with Alt-Shift. The
Cyrillic letters are not related to their Latin counterparts, the layout
presumably evolved from typewriters and Soviet era computers.
--
|Don't believe this - you're not worthless ,gr---------.ru
|It's us against millions and we can't take them all... | ue il |
|But we can take them on! | @ma |
| (A Wilhelm Scream - The Rip) |______________|
On 10033 day of my life Timofei Shatrov wrote:
> The Cyrillic letters are not related to their Latin counterparts, the
> layout presumably evolved from typewriters and Soviet era computers.
Modern layout of Cyrillic keyboards follows ergonomic layout of
typewriters. Some Soviet computers had layout that followed Latin
layout: � was on O, � was on I, � on D and so on. Such an
implementation simplifies keywboard driver: for example, in KOI8 charset
code of � is differet from code of ASCII D only by 8th bit set, and in
KOI7 charset they has same binary representation, and escape codes
define which fontset (Cyrillic vs. Latin) to use.
As of layout switching, it depends on OS and settings. AFAIR, in
Russian Edition of MS Windows 3.11 default switching was Ctrl-Shift, and
somewhere at Win95/Win98 it switched to Alt-Shitft (so from the habits
of particular user you may dudge when he started using PCs). Soviet
computers had special key for switching layouts, but my recollections
are very dim...
--
Ivan Boldyrev
Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
On Nov 24, 11:32 am, Maciej Katafiasz <········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Den Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:33:23 -0800 skrev Slobodan Blazeski:
>
> > Keyboards in Macedonia are usually like this
> >http://www.skyline-eng.com/ebay/emkb2422.jpgwith tilde instead of ¬ .
> > I've seen that character in a box that was bought from England.
>
> This is just standard US-QWERTY layout, ie. The One True Layout as God
> intended it (I'm strongly of opinion that "national" keyboard layouts are
> a sin and any attempts at making one should result in a prompt
> crucifixion of the perpertrator, to send sufficiently strong message to
> any would-be followers).
>
> However, I'm curious as to how is the Cyrillic input specified for
> Macedonian. Is it another layout that's just not denoted on the keys, or
> is it done using some (presumably natural) mapping from Latin to Cyrillic
> letters? Or is it a full-blown IME with phonetic values perhaps?
>
> Cheers,
> Maciej
I must disagree about this , for programming it's not a problem but
whenever once in a while I must write in Cyrilic alphabet hells open,
mainly because there's 26 English letters and 31 letters in our
alphabet so the remaining keys are mapped all over the line-noise
characters, {}~`|\ etc, so I'm constantly switching between Cyrilic
and Latin layout Ctrl+Shift just to write some non-alphabet character,
it's a pain in a but .
If keyboard with our 31 letters existed I would definitely buy one,
even if I use it for typing Cyrilic text only.
Slobodan
On Tue, Nov 27 2007, Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
>> Den Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:33:23 -0800 skrev Slobodan Blazeski:
>>
>> > Keyboards in Macedonia are usually like this
>> >http://www.skyline-eng.com/ebay/emkb2422.jpgwith tilde instead of � .
>> > I've seen that character in a box that was bought from England.
>>
>> This is just standard US-QWERTY layout, ie. The One True Layout as God
>> intended it (I'm strongly of opinion that "national" keyboard layouts are
>> a sin and any attempts at making one should result in a prompt
>> crucifixion of the perpertrator, to send sufficiently strong message to
>> any would-be followers).
>>
>> However, I'm curious as to how is the Cyrillic input specified for
>> Macedonian. Is it another layout that's just not denoted on the keys, or
>> is it done using some (presumably natural) mapping from Latin to Cyrillic
>> letters? Or is it a full-blown IME with phonetic values perhaps?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maciej
>
> I must disagree about this , for programming it's not a problem but
> whenever once in a while I must write in Cyrilic alphabet hells open,
> mainly because there's 26 English letters and 31 letters in our
> alphabet so the remaining keys are mapped all over the line-noise
> characters, {}~`|\ etc, so I'm constantly switching between Cyrilic
> and Latin layout Ctrl+Shift just to write some non-alphabet character,
> it's a pain in a but .
Here is another reason not to use curly braces ;-)
> If keyboard with our 31 letters existed I would definitely buy one,
> even if I use it for typing Cyrilic text only.
By the way you can adjust your keyboard so that when you press a
special key with a key, such as: Alt+<key> it would switch from
Cyrillic mode and write the <key> you wanted as if you are in Latin
mode.
I often write in Cyrillic using a QWERTY-based keyboard and I find
mapping the Cyrillic symbols on such a keyboard not a problem at
all. However, I might not be the typical use case as most of the ppl
here find that hard and therefore they use Latin letters to write in
Cyrillic. You have no idea how irritating that is for reading. So a
war is waged here against that and I'm *strongly* siding with my camp.
--
Kamen
On Nov 27, 12:19 pm, Kamen TOMOV <·····@cybuild.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27 2007, Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> >> Den Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:33:23 -0800 skrev Slobodan Blazeski:
>
> >> > Keyboards in Macedonia are usually like this
> >> >http://www.skyline-eng.com/ebay/emkb2422.jpgwithtilde instead of ¬ .
> >> > I've seen that character in a box that was bought from England.
>
> >> This is just standard US-QWERTY layout, ie. The One True Layout as God
> >> intended it (I'm strongly of opinion that "national" keyboard layouts are
> >> a sin and any attempts at making one should result in a prompt
> >> crucifixion of the perpertrator, to send sufficiently strong message to
> >> any would-be followers).
>
> >> However, I'm curious as to how is the Cyrillic input specified for
> >> Macedonian. Is it another layout that's just not denoted on the keys, or
> >> is it done using some (presumably natural) mapping from Latin to Cyrillic
> >> letters? Or is it a full-blown IME with phonetic values perhaps?
>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Maciej
>
> > I must disagree about this , for programming it's not a problem but
> > whenever once in a while I must write in Cyrilic alphabet hells open,
> > mainly because there's 26 English letters and 31 letters in our
> > alphabet so the remaining keys are mapped all over the line-noise
> > characters, {}~`|\ etc, so I'm constantly switching between Cyrilic
> > and Latin layout Ctrl+Shift just to write some non-alphabet character,
> > it's a pain in a but .
>
> Here is another reason not to use curly braces ;-)
LOL :)
>
> > If keyboard with our 31 letters existed I would definitely buy one,
> > even if I use it for typing Cyrilic text only.
>
> By the way you can adjust your keyboard so that when you press a
> special key with a key, such as: Alt+<key> it would switch from
> Cyrillic mode and write the <key> you wanted as if you are in Latin
> mode.
I don't want to adjust anything, and I hate to press key-combinations.
( No I don't like Emacs)
I want to see the keys with Printed Cyrilic letters on the keyboard
not looking like afterthought in the corner of some English letter
which we don't have like Y, or in line noise characters, or even worst
memorizing them. Keyboards are cheap, I could afford buying one for my
PC, when I'm using other computer I would do that mumbo jumbo.
>
> I often write in Cyrillic using a QWERTY-based keyboard and I find
> mapping the Cyrillic symbols on such a keyboard not a problem at
> all. However, I might not be the typical use case as most of the ppl
> here find that hard and therefore they use Latin letters to write in
> Cyrillic. You have no idea how irritating that is for reading.
Yes I know, I see it all the time but I always go for easy solution
writing in latin unless I'm forced otherwise like in some legal
doc.
> So a
> war is waged here against that and I'm *strongly* siding with my camp.
No war, just personal preferences, even those change with time.
Sometimes I want soft keyboard with short fall while when I'm nervous
I want exactly the opposite as i hit hard on the keyboard . Also I
rarely use num keys and hate additional buttons so I prefer the
keyboard to be small and without them. Something like this or even
smaller http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/192&cl=us,en
>
> --
> Kamen
On Tue, Nov 27 2007, Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
> On Nov 27, 12:19 pm, Kamen TOMOV <·····@cybuild.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 27 2007, Slobodan Blazeski wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I often write in Cyrillic using a QWERTY-based keyboard and I find
>> mapping the Cyrillic symbols on such a keyboard not a problem at
>> all. However, I might not be the typical use case as most of the
>> ppl here find that hard and therefore they use Latin letters to
>> write in Cyrillic. You have no idea how irritating that is for
>> reading.
> Yes I know, I see it all the time but I always go for easy solution
> writing in latin unless I'm forced otherwise like in some legal doc.
Disclaimer: You should have noted the emphasis on the 'WAR symbol.
At our camp we consider using Latin in our Cyrillic languages
disrespectful to the reader. If the reader doesn't mind that, it might
seem OK, but in fact it is not. That's because these people infect
other people by side effect - they are either using tools that are not
portable multilingual or they are example to kids or
newbies. Therefore we think that these people disrespect their
cultural heritage including their origins and ancestors as well.
> ....
By the way if there are any Arabs/Asians/Greek/Indians/etc... who
share our views on these issues they can write me privately if
interested in collaboration on the issue.
--
Kamen
Mark Tarver wrote:
> Is ¬ a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have £ on my
> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
>
(This post will probably only work in unicode newsreaders, if even
that...)
¬ (shift-`) in the top-left is standard on british (and irish)
keyboards, but seems to be less popular elsewhere.
I blame all the logicians hanging around the unis, they'd get very upset
without it. Has to be one of their favourite symbols, along with ∀ and
∃ and of course ⊢ .
☺
I'm always sorely tempted to use it and other fun symbols, particularly
in unicode-enabled lisps.
David Golden wrote:
> Mark Tarver wrote:
>
>> Is ¬ a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have £ on my
>> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
>
> ¬ (shift-`) in the top-left is standard on british (and irish)
> keyboards, but seems to be less popular elsewhere.
Ahh... The US shift-` is ~, good for unix shells and hence popular in
some web URLs.
- Daniel
D Herring wrote:
> Ahh... The US shift-` is ~, good for unix shells and hence popular in
> some web URLs.
Don't worry, the british PC keyboard has that too, it's shift-#
(british PC keyboards are 105-key including windows/super keys)
(like many european layouts, the enter key tends to be annoyingly shaped
to fit the # key in though. Some british keyboards used to have a nice
big enter(return)-symbol-shaped enter key. Come to think of it, maybe
I should map ~ to shift-` (fairly used to it anyway from US keyboards)
and # to enter, thus giving a virtual enter-shaped-enter)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KB_United_Kingdom.svg
Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> Is � a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have � on my
> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
>
> Mark
alt-shift-1 on a German Mac keyboard...
Frank
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> Is � a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have � on my
> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
I would say not.
In fact, I just fixed a problem recently where that very character
(inadvertently) ended up in a comment string, which caused SBCL on my
Mac to choke, since it wasn't properly encoded as UTF-8, so on reading
the source code, things broke.
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute
Thomas A. Russ wrote:
> Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Is ¬ a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have £ on my
>> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
>
> I would say not.
>
It's definitely a standard printed-on-the-keytop keyboard character on
standard _british_ keyboards (and perhaps others, see wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout ), just a lot of
people have keyboards of some other standard...
While it's not in 7-bit ASCII, it is a fairly highly conserved
high character in 8-bit charsets, often at point 172 (or 170 in old
microsoft codepages), as it is in unicode (but utf-8 is not single-byte
for the 8-bit high chars, as you found...)
In article <·····················@news.indigo.ie>,
David Golden <············@oceanfree.net> wrote:
> Thomas A. Russ wrote:
>
> > Mark Tarver <··········@ukonline.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >> Is ¬ a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have £ on my
> >> keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.
> >
> > I would say not.
> >
>
> It's definitely a standard printed-on-the-keytop keyboard character on
> standard _british_ keyboards (and perhaps others, see wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout ), just a lot of
> people have keyboards of some other standard...
>
> While it's not in 7-bit ASCII, it is a fairly highly conserved
> high character in 8-bit charsets, often at point 172 (or 170 in old
> microsoft codepages), as it is in unicode (but utf-8 is not single-byte
> for the 8-bit high chars, as you found...)
It is in Character 172 in ISO Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1).
That's a typical character set for western europe.
http://htmlhelp.com/reference/charset/iso160-191.gif
Rainer Joswig wrote:
> It is in Character 172 in ISO Latin 1 (ISO 8859-1).
> That's a typical character set for western europe.
Indeed. In britain and ireland even. Though lately
here (ireland) people use iso-8859-15 or more likely
unicode (seeing as we use €), but it's there too in -15
(though not -14, "celtic languages").
Mark Tarver wrote:
«Is ¬ a standard keyboard character? I ask because I have £ on my
keyboard which is not common to many keyboards.»
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout
shows the symbol set variations on PC keyboard
http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/kb_collection/
shows various keyboard by different makers that have existed
http://xahlee.org/emacs/keyboards.html
some photos and commentaries of comtemporary keyboards
Xah
···@xahlee.org
∑ http://xahlee.org/