The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
the CAML family of functional programming languages:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
Jon Harrop wrote:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
Thanks for the info. Tell me when I should switch to BSD.
Quick question: Did Latin and Greek fall out of favor because they
were inferior too?
Thanks for the insight.
- Daniel
On 2 nov, 04:15, Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>
> --
> Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
Hello,
Why Common Lisp and not just Lisp ?
Best Regards
Christophe wrote:
> Why Common Lisp and not just Lisp ?
Lisp is a homonym: you'd be searching for speech impediments. In contrast,
OCaml, Erlang and F# are almost entirely unambiguous.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
On Nov 2, 3:36 pm, Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
>
> Lisp is a homonym: you'd be searching for speech impediments. In contrast,
> OCaml, Erlang and F# are almost entirely unambiguous.
Of course, you could always, say, look at newsgroup volume because
newsgroups actually refer to the languages. Of course that would be a
bit embarrassing for F#. I guess all the cool dudes who write F#
discus stuff via internet chat rooms or whatever the fashion is these
days.
CL looks to be doing fine though compared to various other things:
http://www.tfeb.org/scratch/
On 2 nov, 14:57, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
> I guess all the cool dudes who write F#
> discus stuff via internet chat rooms or whatever the fashion is these
> days.
probably MSN...
namekuseijin wrote:
> On 2 nov, 14:57, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
>> I guess all the cool dudes who write F#
>> discus stuff via internet chat rooms or whatever the fashion is these
>> days.
>
> probably MSN...
http://cs.hubfs.net
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/chapter1.html
In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> namekuseijin wrote:
> > On 2 nov, 14:57, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
> >> I guess all the cool dudes who write F#
> >> discus stuff via internet chat rooms or whatever the fashion is these
> >> days.
> >
> > probably MSN...
>
> http://cs.hubfs.net
Who is Online
There are 0 guest(s) online. Currently there are no online users.
In article <························@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 3:36 pm, Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Lisp is a homonym: you'd be searching for speech impediments. In contrast,
> > OCaml, Erlang and F# are almost entirely unambiguous.
>
> Of course, you could always, say, look at newsgroup volume because
> newsgroups actually refer to the languages. Of course that would be a
> bit embarrassing for F#. I guess all the cool dudes who write F#
> discus stuff via internet chat rooms or whatever the fashion is these
> days.
>
> CL looks to be doing fine though compared to various other things:
> http://www.tfeb.org/scratch/
Well, the IRC channel for OCAML is also not that crowded.
A tenth in volume compared to the Lisp or the Haskell channel.
People complain that they cannot get Harrop's stuff to work -
just today on the OCAML IRC channel.
Given that he is busy posting his frog shit here, he
has no time for his 'customers'.
On Nov 2, 5:44 pm, Rainer Joswig <······@lisp.de> wrote:
>
> Well, the IRC channel for OCAML is also not that crowded.
Yeah, but, you know, IRC, WTF is that stuff? That's some shit hippies
used in the 60s on the arpawen or whatever it was they had back then,
no one uses that crap any more. It's all, like, Instant MS Bebo# 2.0
now, you know? You'll be talking about mailing lists or some bogus
stuff, that's even more, like, old than texting any minute. That's
just, so 90s you know? Get with the program, dude, I know you like
lisp and all, but there's really no excuse for that kind of laggy
trash. I bet you don't even have, like, a moby. Wow.
This message brought to you by desoxyephedrine and the hosts file.
Rainer Joswig wrote:
> Well, the IRC channel for OCAML is also not that crowded.
You'll probably find more Lisp libraries hosted on Gopher as well, and more
Lispers in old people's homes.
> People complain that they cannot get Harrop's stuff to work -
> just today on the OCAML IRC channel.
Perhaps if they asked me instead of you...
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> CL looks to be doing fine though compared to various other things:
> http://www.tfeb.org/scratch/
CL is as popular as JavaScript by that metric, which is clearly untrue.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
On Nov 3, 1:00 am, Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> > CL looks to be doing fine though compared to various other things:
> >http://www.tfeb.org/scratch/
>
> CL is as popular as JavaScript by that metric, which is clearly untrue.
Well, you know, that was kind of my point. Of the graphs I gave, one
was for C. Do you really think C is only twice as popular as CL? Do
you think *I* think that (hint, I'm a Unix SA)? None of these facile
mechanisms of establishing popularity mean much. Yours is just
utterly useless; mine could hope to give some kind of normalised rate
of change of popularity because I've chosen a metric which is known to
correspond to the language concerned (one would need to normalise by
some measure of non-spam usenet traffic which I suspect may be
declining however).
Never mind.
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> Well, you know, that was kind of my point. Of the graphs I gave, one
> was for C. Do you really think C is only twice as popular as CL? Do
> you think *I* think that (hint, I'm a Unix SA)? None of these facile
> mechanisms of establishing popularity mean much. Yours is just
> utterly useless; mine could hope to give some kind of normalised rate
> of change of popularity because I've chosen a metric which is known to
> correspond to the language concerned (one would need to normalise by
> some measure of non-spam usenet traffic which I suspect may be
> declining however).
On the contrary, people searching for "ocaml" on Google want to learn about
OCaml. The volume of posts on any usenet group is the "utterly useless"
metric. Counting the number of unique posters would be more relevant but it
still extremely biased by the fact that virtually nobody uses usenet.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
Jon Harrop wrote:
> Christophe wrote:
>> Why Common Lisp and not just Lisp ?
>
> Lisp is a homonym: you'd be searching for speech impediments. In contrast,
> OCaml, Erlang and F# are almost entirely unambiguous.
>
F# and C# are musical notes. Aren't those homonyms too?
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <87sl3okysy.fsf@geddis.org>
"Dimiter \"malkia\" Stanev" <······@gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 02 Nov 2007:
> Jon Harrop wrote:
>> Lisp is a homonym: you'd be searching for speech impediments. In contrast,
>> OCaml, Erlang and F# are almost entirely unambiguous.
>
> F# and C# are musical notes. Aren't those homonyms too?
Yes, of course. Worse, the quick Google search for F# mostly catches
deliberately-obfuscated expletives (···@K"), having nothing at all to do
with the language.
The swamp resident was corrected the first time he posted this kind of
meaningless comparison, but he is interested in propaganda, not truth.
So he ignored the correction, and is back again saying the same thing.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
Measure wealth not by the things you have, but by the things you have for which
you would not take money.
Don Geddis wrote:
> "Dimiter \"malkia\" Stanev" <······@gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 02 Nov 2007:
>> Jon Harrop wrote:
>>> Lisp is a homonym: you'd be searching for speech impediments. In
>>> contrast, OCaml, Erlang and F# are almost entirely unambiguous.
>>
>> F# and C# are musical notes. Aren't those homonyms too?
>
> Yes, of course. Worse, the quick Google search for F# mostly catches
> deliberately-obfuscated expletives (···@K"), having nothing at all to do
> with the language.
>
> The swamp resident was corrected the first time he posted this kind of
> meaningless comparison, but he is interested in propaganda, not truth.
> So he ignored the correction, and is back again saying the same thing.
Can you explain why the musical note only gained notoriety on Google Trends
recently, when the F# programming language was released?
The fact is that, for whatever reason, the musical note F# has no
significant effect on that keywords rank according to Google Trends.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
From: Barry Fishman
Subject: Help playing staccato on violin (Was: Growth of the CAML family of languages)
Date:
Message-ID: <m3bqab75ua.fsf_-_@barry_fishman.acm.org>
Sorry to step on this thread, but since the subject is already off
topic or at least already discussed in this group well beyond the
point that would put anyone to sleep, I didn't think anyone would
mind.
I am having trouble playing staccato passages with my violin. Could
anyone explain what I need to do.
Normally I would post this to music.violin but it seems to be
difficult to get useful responses in that group. Every discussion
seems to be hijacked by someone who want to convince everyone that
they should be playing guitar.
He says that guitars have frets which makes them "note safe", and any
instrument that isn't "note safe" is terribly out of date. Any poster
that tries to say that some music can not be played on guitars, he
gives the reply that all instruments are "Bach equivalent", and any
note not on the chromatic scale is just noise. But then he talks
about all the thing he can do on the guitar that can't be done on the
violin. If someone explains how they can do these things on the
violin, he responds that "all sufficiently long violin pieces try to
implement guitar music, badly", whatever that means.
He posts all kinds of guitar music. He has timing data which shows
how much faster he can play pieces on the guitar than other
instruments. At least to my ear, his music does not sound very good.
I guess I just find real violin music more interesting.
Somehow he thinks to think all this makes him seem very bright. He
claims he is doing this to prevent people from choosing the wrong
instrument, but it I noticed he has an ad for his guitar shop in all
of his messages.
I am sure nothing like this would happen in comp.lang.lisp.
Programmers are far more rational then us musicians. Such nonsense
would be ignored and the person would soon go away. If only we
musicians could be less emotional in out messages.
Well, if anyone could help me out I would appreciate it.
--
Barry Fishman
On 2007-11-03 10:37:33 -0400, Barry Fishman <·············@acm.org> said:
> Programmers are far more rational then us musicians.
Some of us are programmer-musicians ;^)
"Let's Go Fly a Frog"
(to the tune of "Let's go Fly a Kite")
Caring tuppence for Usenetiquette
You can spam comp lang lisp without let
If the camel's fame dips
you can shift all your chips
and put toady lips
to the the Microsoft tit
Oh, oh, oh!
Let's go fly a frog
Out of the function'l bog
Let's go fly a frog and send it spamming
crosspost to comp lang lisp
looking for website hits
Oh let's go fly a frog
On Nov 3, 6:05 pm, Raffael Cavallaro <················@pas-d'espam-
s'il-vous-plait-mac.com> wrote:
> On 2007-11-03 10:37:33 -0400, Barry Fishman <·············@acm.org> said:
>
> > Programmers are far more rational then us musicians.
>
> Some of us are programmer-musicians ;^)
>
> "Let's Go Fly a Frog"
> (to the tune of "Let's go Fly a Kite")
>
> Caring tuppence for Usenetiquette
> You can spam comp lang lisp without let
> If the camel's fame dips
> you can shift all your chips
> and put toady lips
> to the the Microsoft tit
>
> Oh, oh, oh!
> Let's go fly a frog
> Out of the function'l bog
> Let's go fly a frog and send it spamming
> crosspost to comp lang lisp
> looking for website hits
> Oh let's go fly a frog
Thank you Raffael, that was a wonderfull performance.
Now dear usenet users please watch the latest video of c.l.l
production, presenting our resident spammer, the plummeting pond
dweller,(crescendo) the toad Jon Harrop, big applause for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydmjzc20esI
Barry Fishman wrote:
> ...
I would recommend that you learn piano, it is both "note safe" and
abstracts the hardware away.
Sacha
http://falling-piano-consultancy.com/?usenet
On 3 nov, 12:37, Barry Fishman <·············@acm.org> wrote:
> Programmers are far more rational then us musicians.
very nice. Is he the leader of the band The Flying Frogs?
OTOH, your comparison may provide more fuel to his claims that ML-
based languages are the new, hip thing, and Lispers are old farts used
to latin, greek and the ideals of classicism...
namekuseijin <············@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3 nov, 12:37, Barry Fishman <·············@acm.org> wrote:
> > Programmers are far more rational then us musicians.
>
> very nice. Is he the leader of the band The Flying Frogs?
>
> OTOH, your comparison may provide more fuel to his claims that ML-
> based languages are the new, hip thing, and Lispers are old farts used
> to latin, greek and the ideals of classicism...
Maybe he's right. I'm 52, spent a year learning Koine Greek, and prefer
Lisp to every other language I've ever used (although Greek does have
its charms).
But if he is right, it simply confirms the adage, "Even a blind frog
finds a tadpole in the pond every once in awhile."
In article <·················@barry_fishman.acm.org>,
Barry Fishman <·············@acm.org> wrote:
> Sorry to step on this thread, but since the subject is already off
> topic or at least already discussed in this group well beyond the
> point that would put anyone to sleep, I didn't think anyone would
> mind.
>
> I am having trouble playing staccato passages with my violin. Could
> anyone explain what I need to do.
>
> Normally I would post this to music.violin but it seems to be
> difficult to get useful responses in that group. Every discussion
> seems to be hijacked by someone who want to convince everyone that
> they should be playing guitar.
>
> He says that guitars have frets which makes them "note safe", and any
> instrument that isn't "note safe" is terribly out of date. Any poster
> that tries to say that some music can not be played on guitars, he
> gives the reply that all instruments are "Bach equivalent", and any
> note not on the chromatic scale is just noise. But then he talks
> about all the thing he can do on the guitar that can't be done on the
> violin. If someone explains how they can do these things on the
> violin, he responds that "all sufficiently long violin pieces try to
> implement guitar music, badly", whatever that means.
>
> He posts all kinds of guitar music. He has timing data which shows
> how much faster he can play pieces on the guitar than other
> instruments. At least to my ear, his music does not sound very good.
> I guess I just find real violin music more interesting.
>
> Somehow he thinks to think all this makes him seem very bright. He
> claims he is doing this to prevent people from choosing the wrong
> instrument, but it I noticed he has an ad for his guitar shop in all
> of his messages.
>
> I am sure nothing like this would happen in comp.lang.lisp.
> Programmers are far more rational then us musicians. Such nonsense
> would be ignored and the person would soon go away. If only we
> musicians could be less emotional in out messages.
>
> Well, if anyone could help me out I would appreciate it.
Check out the FM-VIOLIN functionality in Common Lisp Music.
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/clm/
Especially the file v.ins should provide you with everything you
need.
Download clm-3.tar.gz
Unpack.
Start one of the supported Lisps.
(load "all.lisp")
(compile-file "v.ins")
(load "v")
(with-sound () (fm-violin 0 1 440 .1))
You should hear a note.
Now all you have to do is writing some staccato function.
Have fun. ;-)
From: Sverker Wiberg
Subject: Re: Help playing staccato on violin (Was: Growth of the CAML family of languages)
Date:
Message-ID: <fgn0v0$iau$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se>
On 2007-11-03 15:37, Barry Fishman wrote:
> He says that guitars have frets which makes them "note safe",
If you do want "note safety" you could implement it yourself by tying on
vihuela/viola da gamba-style frets (and take them off whenever you want
a standard violin again). Another nice thing; the frets end up wherever
*you* want them, instead of where the builder decides to put them ---
but I'm sure the guitaristas will tell you that that is bad.
> and any
> instrument that isn't "note safe" is terribly out of date.
Naaah. They're just different. A neolithic bone flute is "note safe",
while a modern-day theremin is not.
/Sverker
On Nov 2, 11:33 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>
> The swamp resident was corrected the first time he posted this kind of
> meaningless comparison, but he is interested in propaganda, not truth.
> So he ignored the correction, and is back again saying the same thing.
I think it's worse (and sadder[*]) than that. For instance, if you're
using google groups, which is almost certainly by far the most likely
way of someone finding this stuff, look at the ratings that it assigns
to posters. You'll find that basically everyone gets 4 stars (you
have, I have: I haven't looked at your posting history, but my recent
history (in lisp newsgroups anyway) consists largely of bad jokes,
obscure self-referential jokes (I'm rather proud of my recent grammar
flame: I hope someone falls into the trap) and half-serious
suggestions that people I don't like should be killed). So, clearly,
if you don't get 4 stars or so, nothing you say should be taken
seriously, because even I get 4 stars. The frog has 2: catastrophe.
So he's not doing it for propaganda. He's doing it because, like many
of these people, he's ill. I don't have the time to work out what
goes wrong with these people, but it's a fairly common thing to happen
in one form or another. He's not the down-the-line case we've all
seen before (Ilias being a magnificent example from a while ago now),
but he clearly is one.
--tim
[*] Of course, I'm only saying it's sad to get sympathy. Really I
think he should be melted down for glue like the rest of them.
On Nov 4, 10:34 am, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 11:33 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The swamp resident was corrected the first time he posted this kind of
> > meaningless comparison, but he is interested in propaganda, not truth.
> > So he ignored the correction, and is back again saying the same thing.
>
> I think it's worse (and sadder[*]) than that. For instance, if you're
> using google groups, which is almost certainly by far the most likely
> way of someone finding this stuff, look at the ratings that it assigns
> to posters. You'll find that basically everyone gets 4 stars (you
> have, I have: I haven't looked at your posting history, but my recent
> history (in lisp newsgroups anyway) consists largely of bad jokes,
> obscure self-referential jokes (I'm rather proud of my recent grammar
> flame: I hope someone falls into the trap) and half-serious
> suggestions that people I don't like should be killed). So, clearly,
> if you don't get 4 stars or so, nothing you say should be taken
> seriously, because even I get 4 stars. The frog has 2: catastrophe.
Q: How come the toad has 2 star ?
Hmm, because it's getting popular.
Nope, because it's rigged it's account and created a lot of imaginary
friends to gave him 5 stars.
Email address: ······@jdh30.plus.com
Average Rating: 2 stars (60 ratings)
http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=I_YUthUAAACWD_8VFKtRU42NeunWF-drfMq7BcOOnMpM9MYZ86CqoA
Email address: ····@ffconsultancy.com
Average Rating: 1 star (1498 ratings)
http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=I_YUthUAAACWD_8VFKtRU42NeunWF-drfMq7BcOOnMpM9MYZ86CqoA
cheers
Slobodan
>
> So he's not doing it for propaganda. He's doing it because, like many
> of these people, he's ill. I don't have the time to work out what
> goes wrong with these people, but it's a fairly common thing to happen
> in one form or another. He's not the down-the-line case we've all
> seen before (Ilias being a magnificent example from a while ago now),
> but he clearly is one.
>
> --tim
>
> [*] Of course, I'm only saying it's sad to get sympathy. Really I
> think he should be melted down for glue like the rest of them.
Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com> writes:
> On Nov 4, 10:34 am, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
>> On Nov 2, 11:33 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > The swamp resident was corrected the first time he posted this kind of
>> > meaningless comparison, but he is interested in propaganda, not truth.
>> > So he ignored the correction, and is back again saying the same thing.
>>
>> I think it's worse (and sadder[*]) than that. For instance, if you're
>> using google groups, which is almost certainly by far the most likely
>> way of someone finding this stuff, look at the ratings that it assigns
>> to posters. You'll find that basically everyone gets 4 stars (you
>> have, I have: I haven't looked at your posting history, but my recent
>> history (in lisp newsgroups anyway) consists largely of bad jokes,
>> obscure self-referential jokes (I'm rather proud of my recent grammar
>> flame: I hope someone falls into the trap) and half-serious
>> suggestions that people I don't like should be killed). So, clearly,
>> if you don't get 4 stars or so, nothing you say should be taken
>> seriously, because even I get 4 stars. The frog has 2: catastrophe.
>
> Q: How come the toad has 2 star ?
> Hmm, because it's getting popular.
> Nope, because it's rigged it's account and created a lot of imaginary
> friends to gave him 5 stars.
>
> Email address: ······@jdh30.plus.com
> Average Rating: 2 stars (60 ratings)
> http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=I_YUthUAAACWD_8VFKtRU42NeunWF-drfMq7BcOOnMpM9MYZ86CqoA
>
> Email address: ····@ffconsultancy.com
> Average Rating: 1 star (1498 ratings)
> http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=I_YUthUAAACWD_8VFKtRU42NeunWF-drfMq7BcOOnMpM9MYZ86CqoA
>
> cheers
> Slobodan
I guess also this information could be interesting for
You-can-call-me-a-troll Leypold.
Nicolas
Nicolas Neuss wrote:
> Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Nov 4, 10:34 am, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
>>> On Nov 2, 11:33 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > The swamp resident was corrected the first time he posted this kind of
>>> > meaningless comparison, but he is interested in propaganda, not truth.
>>> > So he ignored the correction, and is back again saying the same thing.
>>>
>>> I think it's worse (and sadder[*]) than that. For instance, if you're
>>> using google groups, which is almost certainly by far the most likely
>>> way of someone finding this stuff, look at the ratings that it assigns
>>> to posters. You'll find that basically everyone gets 4 stars (you
>>> have, I have: I haven't looked at your posting history, but my recent
>>> history (in lisp newsgroups anyway) consists largely of bad jokes,
>>> obscure self-referential jokes (I'm rather proud of my recent grammar
>>> flame: I hope someone falls into the trap) and half-serious
>>> suggestions that people I don't like should be killed). So, clearly,
>>> if you don't get 4 stars or so, nothing you say should be taken
>>> seriously, because even I get 4 stars. The frog has 2: catastrophe.
>>
>> Q: How come the toad has 2 star ?
>> Hmm, because it's getting popular.
>> Nope, because it's rigged it's account and created a lot of imaginary
>> friends to gave him 5 stars.
>>
>> Email address: ······@jdh30.plus.com
>> Average Rating: 2 stars (60 ratings)
>> http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=I_YUthUAAACWD_8VFKtRU42NeunWF-drfMq7BcOOnMpM9MYZ86CqoA
>>
>> Email address: ····@ffconsultancy.com
>> Average Rating: 1 star (1498 ratings)
>> http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=I_YUthUAAACWD_8VFKtRU42NeunWF-drfMq7BcOOnMpM9MYZ86CqoA
>>
>> cheers
>> Slobodan
>
> I guess also this information could be interesting for
> You-can-call-me-a-troll Leypold.
My impression is, that you and your cronies are trying to wage a
general war against c.l.f because you can't stomach that you can't
solicite support for your wars against JH here. You've been warned NOT
to push threads from c.l.l to c.l.f that have been started in c.l.l,
don't belong to c.l.f and are disruptive in nature. You didn't heed
it.
We will see now how well the abuse complaint system works, even for
PDs. Fortunately the university of Stuttgart is inside of German
jurisdiction.
It's beyond my understanding how somebody who presumably has a
scientific career to care for can afford to engage in your kind of
behaviour in a medium which will be archived for the next umpteenth
years.
Regards -- Markus
Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de>
writes:
> Nicolas Neuss wrote:
>
> We will see now how well the abuse complaint system works, even for
> PDs. Fortunately the university of Stuttgart is inside of German
> jurisdiction.
Sorry? Which abuse are you speaking about? Wasn't it you who wrote in
<http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/70bee58f08bfa18c>
the nice line
"Call me a troll. :-) You wouldn't be the first one."
I only do what you apparently want...
Nicolas
Jon Harrop wrote:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>
You know what... OCAML and F# might be just fine languages, but your
coming here in this newsgroup and advertising it for no reasons, or
stating "internet" facts, just gives bad image for those languages. In
the long term, you are not going to make more people to look into them,
you are going to make more people associating those languages with you.
j.oke wrote:
> ...or look at this one, really nice:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=CL%2CScheme%2CF%23
And Lisp is as popular as Forth, with Lisp decreasing a bit the last years
:-)
http://www.google.com/trends?q=lisp%2Cforth
--
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss wrote:
> And Lisp is as popular as Forth, with Lisp decreasing a bit the last
> years
> :-)
There's clearly significant correlation between lisp and platypus
trendiness though:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=lisp%2Cplatypus
:-)
Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> writes:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt
> in the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
It is interesting that the example news results for F# are things like
"Get the F#*k Out and Vote!".
Evan
On 2 nov, 03:11, Evan Monroig <········@obakechan.net> wrote:
> Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> writes:
> > The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt
> > in the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> > http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> It is interesting that the example news results for F# are things like
> "Get the F#*k Out and Vote!".
>
> Evan
yes, and Scheme is also too much general a term to make any
claims... :P
From: Kent M Pitman
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <uir4kp92v.fsf@nhplace.com>
Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> writes:
> The recent productization of [G flat] by Microsoft has caused
> a growth spurt [...]
Enough that they can afford to buy you your own newsgroup?
That would be good news indeed.
Thanks for sharing ... the news, I mean, not the newsgroup.
- - - - -
Sigh.
This is why gated communities come into being. It's sad when people
have to wall themselves off. But it's also sad when people can't
observe common sense rules, like the notion that a newsgroup labeled
x should be for people who like x and want to discuss it. That's why
they are sometimes called "interest groups". They are certainly not
"disinterest groups".
> This is why gated communities come into being. It's sad when people
> have to wall themselves off. But it's also sad when people can't
> observe common sense rules, like the notion that a newsgroup labeled
> x should be for people who like x and want to discuss it. That's why
> they are sometimes called "interest groups". They are certainly not
> "disinterest groups".
Yup. Wouldn't that be somehow related to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons ?
From: Tobias C. Rittweiler
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <87640i3knq.fsf@freebits.de>
Kent M Pitman <······@nhplace.com> writes:
> Sigh.
>
> This is why gated communities come into being. It's sad when people
> have to wall themselves off. But it's also sad when people can't
> observe common sense rules, like the notion that a newsgroup labeled
> x should be for people who like x and want to discuss it. That's why
> they are sometimes called "interest groups". They are certainly not
> "disinterest groups".
"Unfortunately, removing morons from the Net is not considered useful
by the morons. If they were smarter, they would figure out the value
to all of going away, but not being smarter, they do not."
Wise words from an egregious man.
-T.
Jon Harrop wrote:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>
> --
> Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
Toad's back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qmJc0lk9o
Slobodan
Jon Harrop wrote:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>
Now where is the c.l.f guy who provided that glowing testimonial to the
fine Usenet character and contributions of Medicine Man Harrumph?
Wherever you are, please curb your frog. Or at least shut up in the
future with the toadal tributes.
thx!
kzo
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
Ken Tilton wrote:
> Jon Harrop wrote:
>> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
>> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady
>> decline.
>>
>
> Now where is the c.l.f guy who provided that glowing testimonial to
> the fine Usenet character and contributions of Medicine Man Harrumph?
>
> Wherever you are, please curb your frog. Or at least shut up in the
> future with the toadal tributes.
>
> thx!
>
> kzo
Shut up, Kenny. The fact that somebody (probably me) defended the
right of JH (whom I often don't agree with) to post to c.l.l, even on
controversial topics, without being verbally assaulted and maligned by
people with a borderline tourette syndrome, doesn't make that a
"glowing testimonial". It just makes a declaration about the open
character of Usenet: You're always free to use a news client which can
suppress Jons postings (or ignore them yourself if you don't want to
change your client).
BTW: You've been crossposting to c.l.f again. Believe me: You and your
style of discussion are not wanted here. If it relieves the pressure
of compulsion, well, so be it, since we can't stop you anyway, but you
don't seriously believe that you get any useful discussion after such
a contribution, nor will you get rid of Jon (as experience should have
tought you). So why to you even try? I humbly suggest you stay away
from c.l.f with your kind of posting.
(And yes, this posting for once goes to c.l.l as well to make my
position on that quite clear to those that have been reading Ken's
epistle).
Regards -- Markus
Markus E L wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
>>Jon Harrop wrote:
>>
>>>The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
>>>the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>>> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>>>Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady
>>>decline.
>>>
>>
>>Now where is the c.l.f guy who provided that glowing testimonial to
>>the fine Usenet character and contributions of Medicine Man Harrumph?
>>
>>Wherever you are, please curb your frog. Or at least shut up in the
>>future with the toadal tributes.
>>
>>thx!
>>
>>kzo
>
>
> Shut up, Kenny. The fact that somebody (probably me)
I think you owe Bill Cosby a royalty:
Shop teacher: "Anybody who would put a bullet in the kiln must not have
a very good mother."
Student: "I didn't put the bullet in the oven so stop talking about my
mother!"
>.. defended the
> right of JH (whom I often don't agree with) to post to c.l.l, even on
> controversial topics, without being verbally assaulted and maligned by
> people with a borderline tourette syndrome, doesn't make that a
> "glowing testimonial".
Probably was not you then, it was definitely glowing. Kind of a North
Shore of Kaui sunset in winter glow. Glowing, definitely glowing. Google
"glowing frog" maybe...
> It just makes a declaration about the open
> character of Usenet: You're always free to use a news client which can
> suppress Jons postings (or ignore them yourself if you don't want to
> change your client).
>
> BTW: You've been crossposting to c.l.f again.
[Omigod, the dumbfuck thinks that was a mistake!]
>... Believe me: You and your
> style of discussion are not wanted here. If it relieves the pressure
> of compulsion, well, so be it, since we can't stop you anyway, but you
> don't seriously believe that you get any useful discussion after such
> a contribution, nor will you get rid of Jon (as experience should have
> tought you). So why to you even try? I humbly suggest you stay away
> from c.l.f with your kind of posting.
>
> (And yes, this posting for once goes to c.l.l as well to make my
> position on that quite clear...
[I think he is starting to catch on.]
I just want to make sure whoever wrote that glowing testimonial and then
slinked away with his tail between his legs when cll pointed out to him
that he had no idea how Harrop was behaving would learn painfully day in
and day out tediously and obnoxiously how Harrop is behaving. Seems to
be working.
comp.lang.functional has Jon Harrop to thank for my presence, and so it
will stay until... is it true frog's legs taste like chicken? Could we
find out?
Now excuse me while I go subscribe to c.l.f.
kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
Ken Tilton wrote:
>>.. defended the
>> right of JH (whom I often don't agree with) to post to c.l.l, even on
>> controversial topics, without being verbally assaulted and maligned by
>> people with a borderline tourette syndrome, doesn't make that a
>> "glowing testimonial".
>
> Probably was not you then, it was definitely glowing. Kind of a North
> Shore of Kaui sunset in winter glow. Glowing, definitely
> glowing. Google "glowing frog" maybe...
And on the other side - maybe not. Hardly believable that the
"character witness" for JH used the words "glowing frog".
>> It just makes a declaration about the open
>> character of Usenet: You're always free to use a news client which can
>> suppress Jons postings (or ignore them yourself if you don't want to
>> change your client).
>> BTW: You've been crossposting to c.l.f again.
>
> [Omigod, the dumbfuck thinks that was a mistake!]
No, certainly not. I know you. I suggest you talk to your doctor about
adjusting your medication. An increased dosage of haldol might help
you to overcome your urge for spontanous expostulation of obscenities
and swearing at people. It could help you to focus on arguments
instead of maligning others.
>>... Believe me: You and your
>> style of discussion are not wanted here. If it relieves the pressure
>> of compulsion, well, so be it, since we can't stop you anyway, but you
>> don't seriously believe that you get any useful discussion after such
>> a contribution, nor will you get rid of Jon (as experience should have
>> tought you). So why to you even try? I humbly suggest you stay away
>> from c.l.f with your kind of posting.
>> (And yes, this posting for once goes to c.l.l as well to make my
>> position on that quite clear...
>
> [I think he is starting to catch on.]
> I just want to make sure whoever wrote that glowing testimonial and
> then slinked away with his tail between his legs when cll pointed out
> to him that he had no idea how Harrop was behaving would learn
> painfully day in and day out tediously and obnoxiously how Harrop is
> behaving. Seems to be working.
> comp.lang.functional has Jon Harrop to thank for my presence, and so
Well, actually we have known Jon for a long time. You're delusional,
at least regarding your importance in the overall scheme of things.
> it will stay until... is it true frog's legs taste like chicken? Could
> we find out?
>
> Now excuse me while I go subscribe to c.l.f.
I'd prefer to excuse you while you took your medication.
-- M
On Nov 3, 10:43 am, Markus E L
> people with a borderline tourette syndrome,
Tourette's is a fucking requirement to post on cll.
> Jons
You owe the usenet oracle one apostrophe, or a six pints of your own
blood.
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> On Nov 3, 10:43 am, Markus E L
>> people with a borderline tourette syndrome,
>
> Tourette's is a fucking requirement to post on cll.
It seems like that. Actually I'm recanting: Tourette's is a terrible
afflication for those who have it. Having an organic basis it actually
"imprisons" an often very thoughtful, creative and valuable person
under a load of tics. It does those people an injustice to compare
them to people who are just socially ill adapted and inable to
communicate and have no illness as an excuse. Just look for the posts
with the most expletives in them and you know whom I mean. Not all
posters to c.l.l exhibit that behaviour, but you certainly got a nice
team of rioters there. If possible, keep them there. Thanks.
Regards -- Markus
Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> writes:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
Complaint sent to ·····@supernews.com.
Raymond Wiker wrote:
> Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> writes:
>> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
>> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>>
>> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady
>> decline.
>
> Complaint sent to ·····@supernews.com.
LOL.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
Jon Harrop wrote:
�
The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt
in
the CAML family of functional programming languages:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady
decline.
�
I think your suggestion is forced, and you probably knew it.
If you just use the keyword "lisp" in google trends, you'll find that
they far surpass ocaml and f# in popularity, and to me this seems a
more reasonable accessment of reality.
You say in other post in this thread that the word "lisp" by itself
alsoo refers to speech impediment. That's true, but if you google
search on "lisp", the first 5 pages all refers to lisp the language,
none refers to lisp the speech defect. (i haven't checked further to
see at which page it starts to refer to the speech defect) This is
also compatible to my observations. Lisp as a speech defect is
esoteric. I actually don't know about that meaning until reading
somewhere in lisp programer's gossips. (this is in early 1990s) For
vast majority of programers, if he doesn't know that lisp is a
programing lang, i think he wouldn't know it means speech defect.
honestly, i personally don't think Ocmal is more popular than Haskell,
and Haskell is far less popular than Lisp. A plausible reason for this
is that lisp(s) has been around for about 4 decades, and there are a
lot lisp code that are still relevant today. While Haskell, OCamel,
are very young, are predominently academic and used in esoteric niche
markets. (often just a few exemplary cases cited by the lang's
websites)
Microsoft's bringing out of F# is interesting. Possibly, it will
surpasse any of lisp or Haskell (and i'd cheer for it), but this
hasn't happend yet.
Common Lisp itself, is actually going thru a lot growth in the past 5
years starting post-doc-com.
it should be said here, that personally i don't give a hot shit about
Common Lisp, and in the past year i have completely lost any lingering
affection on Scheme Lisp (with its Guile pipe dream circa 1998 and now
R6RS fiasco; and mostly its motherfucking academic bag of aloof and
stilted morons). I think a significant portion of Common Lisp regulars
here are aggresive morons. The part i hold dear about lisp, is in its
general quality, thinking, and functional programing orientation, and
the lisp i really care with practicality is Emacs Lisp.
Emacs lisp is interesting, in that it is one of those quite language
without a zealot community (other example in this class are
JavaScript, PHP), and is constantly sneered by both Common Lispers and
Schemers, yet is probably the lang that had the most practical impact
to programers in introducing Lisp as well as functional programing,
and being a practical tool who's popularity far exceeds all other
lisps combined.
Further readings:
� Computer Language Popularity Trend
http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html
� the Measure of a Language
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/measure_lang.html
� What Languages to Hate?
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/language_to_hate.html
� Text Processing with Emacs Lisp
http://xahlee.org/emacs/elisp_text_processing.html
Xah
···@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/
On 3 nov, 14:32, Xah Lee <····@xahlee.org> wrote:
> it should be said here, that personally i don't give a hot shit about
> Common Lisp, and in the past year i have completely lost any lingering
> affection on Scheme Lisp (with its Guile pipe dream circa 1998 and now
> R6RS fiasco; and mostly its motherfucking academic bag of aloof and
> stilted morons).
I don't understand how one single, minor Scheme implementation among
many very good ones and a highly criticized comittee standard have had
this effect on you. Besides, its "motherfucking academic bag of aloof
and
stilted morons" has been the sole responsible for the only hints of
Lisp modernization for the past decades, like providing first-class
continuations, hygienic macros and gearing towards functional
programming head-on, while CL continues firmly rooted in the 60s/70s
imperative mentality.
> The part i hold dear about lisp, is in its
> general quality, thinking, and functional programing orientation, and
> the lisp i really care with practicality is Emacs Lisp.
the only reason for elisp being relevant is because it's the fuel of
one of the best programming tools around. It's not like it's a great
language, just that you absolutely need it in its niche. It's the
same for PHP.
From: Jeff Bopp
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <utzo2g7ki.fsf@comcast.net>
Xah Lee wrote:
> You say in other post in this thread that the word "lisp" by itself
> alsoo refers to speech impediment. That's true, but if you google
> search on "lisp", the first 5 pages all refers to lisp the language,
> none refers to lisp the speech defect.
I get 3/10 non-CL results on the first page. YMMV. Regardless, there is a
difference between how often terms are searching for and how many results
are returned. Google Trends measures the former:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/trends/about.html
> honestly, i personally don't think Ocmal is more popular than Haskell,
Agreed. Haskell has grown thanks to several books being published recently
as well as O'Reilly's announcement of a new one.
> and Haskell is far less popular than Lisp.
By most metrics they are comparable: well within an order of magnitude. They
all have similar numbers of projects on Freshmeat, for example:
http://freshmeat.net/browse/160/
8,841 C
5,800 Java
4,856 C++
4,280 PHP
3,784 Perl
2,908 Python
1,066 JavaScript
1,012 Unix Shell
546 SQL
500 Tcl
438 Ruby
382 Objective C
304 C#
294 Other
256 Assembly
165 Other Scripting Engines
148 Scheme
96 PL/SQL
92 Lisp
89 OCaml
84 Fortran
80 Delphi
75 Haskell
64 Ada
64 Common Lisp
60 Emacs-Lisp
59 Pascal
54 Awk
51 Zope
47 ASP
45 Visual Basic
39 Lua
37 Basic
34 Eiffel
33 ML
Note that there are many overlaps where projects are classified as both Lisp
and Common Lisp, so you cannot add the two numbers.
Google fights for "written in *" indicates that they are in the same order
of magnitude:
C: 1,380,000
C#: 450,000
Lisp: 58,300
Haskell: 34,300
Common Lisp: 27,500
OCaml: 23,800
> A plausible reason for this
> is that lisp(s) has been around for about 4 decades, and there are a
> lot lisp code that are still relevant today. While Haskell, OCaml,
> are very young, are predominently academic and used in esoteric niche
> markets. (often just a few exemplary cases cited by the lang's
> websites)
Actually, the CAML family of languages are already widely used in industry:
Microsoft have a considerable investment in the CAML family of languages.
Their third-party driver verification software is written in OCaml. Their
next major language on the .NET platform, F#, is a CAML derivative.
Microsoft make extensive use of both OCaml and F# internally. For example,
Microsoft trust the $2bn advertising market on MSN Live to F# code.
Intel also make significant use of OCaml for hardware verification in their
billion dollar chip market.
The FFT routines in MATLAB are written in OCaml and The MathWorks sell
add-ons written in SML.
Canon, Philips, Boeing, Sun, Lockheed-Martin and various other large
companies are among our customers, all of whom use OCaml in industry.
We also have dozens of smaller companies among our customers including
XenSource, whose value-add over the free edition of Xen is largely a
distributed, cross-platform management tool stack written in OCaml. They
recently sold to Citrix for $500M.
Jane St. Capital have over 20 OCaml programmers working in offices around
the world on finance. They recently expanded with a new office in London.
Several other financial houses use functional programming languages
extensively. Outside ML, Haskell is also popular in the financial sector
following a seminal paper by Simon Peyton-Jones.
So I would not say that OCaml is "predominantly academic". In fact, I think
you'll be hard-pressed to find similarly large-scale and recent adoptions
of Lisp in industry.
> Common Lisp itself, is actually going thru a lot growth in the past 5
> years starting post-doc-com.
Really? I was under the impression that Lisp had barely grown at all
recently:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Clisp
> Emacs lisp is interesting, in that it is one of those quite language
> without a zealot community (other example in this class are
> JavaScript, PHP), and is constantly sneered by both Common Lispers and
> Schemers, yet is probably the lang that had the most practical impact
> to programers in introducing Lisp as well as functional programing,
> and being a practical tool who's popularity far exceeds all other
> lisps combined.
True.
> Further readings:
>
> � Computer Language Popularity Trend
> http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html
I think the number of posts on usenet does not correlate with language
popularity. For example, the JavaScript newsgroup gets roughly as many
posts as c.l.lisp yet JavaScript sells 100x as many books.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
On 4 nov, 07:13, Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> They all have similar numbers of projects on Freshmeat, for example:
>
> http://freshmeat.net/browse/160/
> 8,841 C
> 5,800 Java
> 4,856 C++
> 4,280 PHP
...
> 148 Scheme
...
> 92 Lisp
> 89 OCaml
...
> 75 Haskell
> 64 Common Lisp
> 60 Emacs-Lisp
...
> 33 ML
> Note that there are many overlaps where projects are classified as both Lisp
> and Common Lisp, so you cannot add the two numbers.
BOOYA!! Scheme is above both Common Lisp, Haskell and OCaml! :D :P
> Actually, the CAML family of languages are already widely used in industry:
ok, we already know your examples. You post them everywhere...
Xah Lee wrote:
> You say in other post in this thread that the word "lisp" by itself
> alsoo refers to speech impediment. That's true, but if you google
> search on "lisp", the first 5 pages all refers to lisp the language,
> none refers to lisp the speech defect. (i haven't checked further to
> see at which page it starts to refer to the speech defect) This is
> also compatible to my observations.
If you compare Google hits for "lisp" and "lisp -impediment" you cut 90% of
the hits by removing references to the speech impediment, but the same does
not happen with other languages:
java: 282,000,000
lisp: 21,300,000
f#: 7,260,000
ocaml: 4,300,000
java impediment: 254,000,000
f# -impediment: 2,410,000
ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
Also, this is not true of the F# musical note:
f# -note: 2,390,000
Interestingly, despite Lisp's advantage of enormous legacy it still comes
out at the bottom of the list...
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> Xah Lee wrote:
> > You say in other post in this thread that the word "lisp" by itself
> > alsoo refers to speech impediment. That's true, but if you google
> > search on "lisp", the first 5 pages all refers to lisp the language,
> > none refers to lisp the speech defect. (i haven't checked further to
> > see at which page it starts to refer to the speech defect) This is
> > also compatible to my observations.
>
> If you compare Google hits for "lisp" and "lisp -impediment" you cut 90% of
> the hits by removing references to the speech impediment, but the same does
> not happen with other languages:
>
> java: 282,000,000
> lisp: 21,300,000
> f#: 7,260,000
> ocaml: 4,300,000
Click through the result pages for OCAML.
After 804 results there are no more.
Results 801 - 804 of about 4,490,000 for ocaml
Where are the others?
>
> java impediment: 254,000,000
> f# -impediment: 2,410,000
> ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
> lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
>
> Also, this is not true of the F# musical note:
>
> f# -note: 2,390,000
>
> Interestingly, despite Lisp's advantage of enormous legacy it still comes
> out at the bottom of the list...
You might want to improve Google's code using OCAML. That
would be more interesting than counting frog eggs.
Rainer Joswig wrote:
> Click through the result pages for OCAML.
>
> After 804 results there are no more.
>
> Results 801 - 804 of about 4,490,000 for ocaml
>
> Where are the others?
Click on "repeat the search with the omitted results included." and read the
sign:
"Sorry, Google does not serve more than 1000 results for any query."
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> Rainer Joswig wrote:
> > Click through the result pages for OCAML.
> >
> > After 804 results there are no more.
> >
> > Results 801 - 804 of about 4,490,000 for ocaml
> >
> > Where are the others?
>
> Click on "repeat the search with the omitted results included." and read the
> sign:
>
> "Sorry, Google does not serve more than 1000 results for any query."
Then you find mostly machine generated pages like
messages from Debian.
Accepted ocamlnet 0.98-1 (powerpc source)
Accepted ocamlnet 1.1-1 (source i386)
Good luck with your business with machines.
Rainer Joswig wrote:
> Then you find mostly machine generated pages like
> messages from Debian.
Yes. That is true for most searches, which is why this is only an order of
magnitude estimate.
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/chapter1.html
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <4ymXi.12$w05.2@newsfe08.lga>
Rainer, you forgot to cross-post to c.l.f. This is as relevant there as
it is here! Glad to help, kzo
Rainer Joswig wrote:
> In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
> Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Xah Lee wrote:
>>
>>>You say in other post in this thread that the word "lisp" by itself
>>>alsoo refers to speech impediment. That's true, but if you google
>>>search on "lisp", the first 5 pages all refers to lisp the language,
>>>none refers to lisp the speech defect. (i haven't checked further to
>>>see at which page it starts to refer to the speech defect) This is
>>>also compatible to my observations.
>>
>>If you compare Google hits for "lisp" and "lisp -impediment" you cut 90% of
>>the hits by removing references to the speech impediment, but the same does
>>not happen with other languages:
>>
>>java: 282,000,000
>>lisp: 21,300,000
>>f#: 7,260,000
>>ocaml: 4,300,000
>
>
> Click through the result pages for OCAML.
>
> After 804 results there are no more.
>
> Results 801 - 804 of about 4,490,000 for ocaml
>
> Where are the others?
>
>
>>java impediment: 254,000,000
>>f# -impediment: 2,410,000
>>ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
>>lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
>>
>>Also, this is not true of the F# musical note:
>>
>>f# -note: 2,390,000
>>
>>Interestingly, despite Lisp's advantage of enormous legacy it still comes
>>out at the bottom of the list...
>
>
> You might want to improve Google's code using OCAML. That
> would be more interesting than counting frog eggs.
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
In article <··············@newsfe08.lga>,
Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
> Rainer, you forgot to cross-post to c.l.f. This is as relevant there as
> it is here! Glad to help, kzo
Right, especially comp.lang.functional should know that
there is this fantastic growth in OCAML. Lots
of business opportunities. Thanks to Jon Harrop
for this wonderful information. Jon, you are
the hero of the Functional Programming community, tireless
bringing the light to the morons living in the
dark age. Thank you so much! We will prepare
a series of posts to OCAML related mailing lists
and newsgroups to bring the good news. Everybody
please prepare to jump ship now. OCAML is the new
white and Jon Harrop is its holy evangelist.
Praise the Lambda! There will be a flood wave
of new users. Upgrade your machines to handle
the volume. Jon Harrop will need to upgrade his
bank account. Soon. I see it coming.
Thanks so much, Kenny!
>
> Rainer Joswig wrote:
> > In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
> > Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Xah Lee wrote:
> >>
> >>>You say in other post in this thread that the word "lisp" by itself
> >>>alsoo refers to speech impediment. That's true, but if you google
> >>>search on "lisp", the first 5 pages all refers to lisp the language,
> >>>none refers to lisp the speech defect. (i haven't checked further to
> >>>see at which page it starts to refer to the speech defect) This is
> >>>also compatible to my observations.
> >>
> >>If you compare Google hits for "lisp" and "lisp -impediment" you cut 90% of
> >>the hits by removing references to the speech impediment, but the same does
> >>not happen with other languages:
> >>
> >>java: 282,000,000
> >>lisp: 21,300,000
> >>f#: 7,260,000
> >>ocaml: 4,300,000
> >
> >
> > Click through the result pages for OCAML.
> >
> > After 804 results there are no more.
> >
> > Results 801 - 804 of about 4,490,000 for ocaml
> >
> > Where are the others?
> >
> >
> >>java impediment: 254,000,000
> >>f# -impediment: 2,410,000
> >>ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
> >>lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
> >>
> >>Also, this is not true of the F# musical note:
> >>
> >>f# -note: 2,390,000
> >>
> >>Interestingly, despite Lisp's advantage of enormous legacy it still comes
> >>out at the bottom of the list...
> >
> >
> > You might want to improve Google's code using OCAML. That
> > would be more interesting than counting frog eggs.
Rainer Joswig <······@lisp.de> writes:
> In article <··············@newsfe08.lga>,
> Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Rainer, you forgot to cross-post to c.l.f. This is as relevant there as
>> it is here! Glad to help, kzo
>
> Right, especially comp.lang.functional should know that
> there is this fantastic growth in OCAML. Lots
> of business opportunities. Thanks to Jon Harrop
> for this wonderful information. Jon, you are
> the hero of the Functional Programming community, tireless
> bringing the light to the morons living in the
> dark age. Thank you so much! We will prepare
> a series of posts to OCAML related mailing lists
> and newsgroups to bring the good news. Everybody
> please prepare to jump ship now. OCAML is the new
> white and Jon Harrop is its holy evangelist.
> Praise the Lambda! There will be a flood wave
> of new users. Upgrade your machines to handle
> the volume. Jon Harrop will need to upgrade his
> bank account. Soon. I see it coming.
>
> Thanks so much, Kenny!
If only Kenny set the crossposting to comp.*lang*.functional instead
of comp.lag.functional...
But hey, that little guy down there in Stuttgart is glad to help ...
;-)
>
>
>>
>> Rainer Joswig wrote:
>> > In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
>> > Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Xah Lee wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>You say in other post in this thread that the word "lisp" by itself
>> >>>alsoo refers to speech impediment. That's true, but if you google
>> >>>search on "lisp", the first 5 pages all refers to lisp the language,
>> >>>none refers to lisp the speech defect. (i haven't checked further to
>> >>>see at which page it starts to refer to the speech defect) This is
>> >>>also compatible to my observations.
>> >>
>> >>If you compare Google hits for "lisp" and "lisp -impediment" you cut 90% of
>> >>the hits by removing references to the speech impediment, but the same does
>> >>not happen with other languages:
>> >>
>> >>java: 282,000,000
>> >>lisp: 21,300,000
>> >>f#: 7,260,000
>> >>ocaml: 4,300,000
>> >
>> >
>> > Click through the result pages for OCAML.
>> >
>> > After 804 results there are no more.
>> >
>> > Results 801 - 804 of about 4,490,000 for ocaml
>> >
>> > Where are the others?
>> >
>> >
>> >>java impediment: 254,000,000
>> >>f# -impediment: 2,410,000
>> >>ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
>> >>lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
>> >>
>> >>Also, this is not true of the F# musical note:
>> >>
>> >>f# -note: 2,390,000
>> >>
>> >>Interestingly, despite Lisp's advantage of enormous legacy it still comes
>> >>out at the bottom of the list...
>> >
>> >
>> > You might want to improve Google's code using OCAML. That
>> > would be more interesting than counting frog eggs.
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
On 2007-11-04 06:03:46 -0500, flappy said:
> f# -impediment: 2,410,000
> ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
> lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
>
> Also, this is not true of the F# musical note:
>
> f# -note: 2,390,000
The phrases will of course be "F# Major" "F# Minor" and "music" not
just "note":
ocaml -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note= 1,430,000
f# -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note = 2,240,000
lisp -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note = 2,390,000
Note that this excludes any hits for lisp AND music which itself pulls
in 2,180,000 hits.
We could play these silly games all day.
I know camls are often found in deserts - is that why c.l.f is such a
wasteland?
In article
<····································@pasdespamsilvousplaitmaccom>,
Raffael Cavallaro
<················@pas-d'espam-s'il-vous-plait-mac.com> wrote:
> On 2007-11-04 06:03:46 -0500, flappy said:
>
> > f# -impediment: 2,410,000
> > ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
> > lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
> >
> > Also, this is not true of the F# musical note:
> >
> > f# -note: 2,390,000
>
> The phrases will of course be "F# Major" "F# Minor" and "music" not
> just "note":
>
> ocaml -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note= 1,430,000
> f# -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note = 2,240,000
> lisp -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note = 2,390,000
>
> Note that this excludes any hits for lisp AND music which itself pulls
> in 2,180,000 hits.
> We could play these silly games all day.
>
> I know camls are often found in deserts - is that why c.l.f is such a
> wasteland?
my favorite search is
"ocaml application"=29 hits
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <873avlcp6b.fsf@geddis.org>
Raffael Cavallaro <················@pas-d'espam-s'il-vous-plait-mac.com> wrote on Sun, 4 Nov 2007 :
> ocaml -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note= 1,430,000
> f# -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note = 2,240,000
> lisp -speech -impediment -major -minor -music -note = 2,390,000
> We could play these silly games all day.
Do you guys even look at these results pages?
The biggest homonym for F# isn't in the music domain. It's expletives.
It appears that the majority of Google hits for F# are things like "F#$%",
"F#*K", etc.
You're a long way from even having a ballpark figure of the use of these
terms as computer languages, on the web.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
Hail to the sun god, he sure is a fun god, Ra, Ra, Ra!
On 2007-11-04 23:05:32 -0500, Don Geddis <···@geddis.org> said:
> You're a long way from even having a ballpark figure of the use of these
> terms as computer languages, on the web.
that's the whole point - you can tweak the search terms to provide any
"evidence" you want
On 4 nov, 09:03, Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> Xah Lee wrote:
> > none refers to lisp the speech defect. (i haven't checked further to
> If you compare Google hits for "lisp" and "lisp -impediment" you cut 90% of
> the hits by removing references to the speech impediment, but the same does
> not happen with other languages:
>
> java: 282,000,000
> lisp: 21,300,000
> f#: 7,260,000
> ocaml: 4,300,000
>
> java impediment: 254,000,000
> f# -impediment: 2,410,000
> ocaml -impediment: 2,130,000
> lisp -impediment: 2,080,000
very funny...
-----------------------------------
2007-11-04
Dear Jon Harrop,
Interesting findings. Thanks.
... i started to write a lot more but realized am spending time
fruitlessly. (already spend like goddamn 1 hour on this thread this
morning reading and checking)
All things considered, at this point i'm not quite convinced that the
ocaml family or haskell is more used than Common Lisp and Scheme in
the industry.... i think all these web results amount to is that they
are in the same ball park of popularity.
to get more accurate results, we'll have to start to decide and define
what we are really measuring (i.e. popularity, awareness, number of
"sizable" programs,...) ... and dedicate real time and seriousness on
researching this.
(even just using the web, if one of us educated (say me, Jon Harrop,
Kenny Tilton, Kent Pitman) gets serious on this and say spend some 40
hours researching this subject, i think a much sharper picture can
come out, and will prob be satisfactory to our level of interest. Of
course, to go further, market research firms can be hired... that's
when we'll get real insights on what real, relavent corporations and
projects, and to what scale, are actually using what fun lang. (of
course, many such are confidential))
the above paragraph is trivial understanding to a well educated man,
and it is my disgrace to have to spend a paragraph on it. However, in
newsgroups, esp among the tech motherfucking geekers, vast majority
(such as those participating hotly in this thread) don't understand a
iota it. Not that they are incapable, just that their tech geeking
habit conditioned them to never think in any relevant or significant
direction when it comes to social matters. I'm mentioning this, for
educational purposes.
-----------------------------------
2007-11-08
The posts in this thread has tripled to now 108, and half of it is
brainless accusations and argument of newsgroup politics.
Further readings:
� Tech Geekers versus Spammers
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/tech_geekers_vs_spammers.html
� Cross-posting and Language Factions
http://xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/cross-post.html
Xah
···@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/
In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
The crazy frog has now invaded Lambda the Ultimate.
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2491
On Nov 3, 2:02 am, Rainer Joswig <······@lisp.de> wrote:
> In article <···············@corp.supernews.com>,
> Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
>
> > The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> > the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> > http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> > Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>
> The crazy frog has now invaded Lambda the Ultimate.
>
> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2491
Amazing. A thread 41 entries long about absolutely nothing at all
much less anything to do with lisp. Dumb monkeys.
Markus E L wrote:
> Markus E L wrote:
>
>
>>>Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>>
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>Why don't you use Cobol then? BTW, the method is questionable: I see
>
>
>
> Please ignore me :-). I just noticed that I probably transplanted this
> thread from c.l.l to c.l.f. Since I don't post on c.l.l I can't very
> well give an answer and certainly not at c.l.f which (I think) should
> not be abused to wage wars that cannot be waged in c.l.l.
>
> So, em, sorry.
>
> Regards -- Markus
So it is OK to encourage Toad Harrop on c.l.l but you /apologize/ for
doing so here? I can see why you like his style of Usenet participation.
Instead of yelling at me with whom you have no influence, why don't you
talk to Jonny boy about /his/ behavior? Oh, I forgot, he is a fine
Usenet citizen....
<sigh>
kzo
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
Ken Tilton wrote:
> Markus E L wrote:
>> Markus E L wrote:
>>
>>>>Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>>>
>>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>>Why don't you use Cobol then? BTW, the method is questionable: I see
>> Please ignore me :-). I just noticed that I probably transplanted
>> this
>> thread from c.l.l to c.l.f. Since I don't post on c.l.l I can't very
>> well give an answer and certainly not at c.l.f which (I think) should
>> not be abused to wage wars that cannot be waged in c.l.l. So, em,
>> sorry.
>> Regards -- Markus
>
> So it is OK to encourage Toad Harrop on c.l.l but you /apologize/ for
> doing so here? I can see why you like his style of Usenet
> participation.
I apologize for responding on c.l.f to a post which only went to
c.l.l. Check you facts. And leave us alone, if possible.
> Instead of yelling at me with whom you have no influence, why don't
> you talk to Jonny boy about /his/ behavior? Oh, I forgot, he is a fine
> Usenet citizen....
>
> <sigh>
If I were afflicted like you, I'd also sigh. Deeply.
- M
And BTW: *Plonk*.
Markus E L wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
>>Markus E L wrote:
>>
>>>Markus E L wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>>>>
>>>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>>Why don't you use Cobol then? BTW, the method is questionable: I see
>>>
>>>Please ignore me :-). I just noticed that I probably transplanted
>>>this
>>>thread from c.l.l to c.l.f. Since I don't post on c.l.l I can't very
>>>well give an answer and certainly not at c.l.f which (I think) should
>>>not be abused to wage wars that cannot be waged in c.l.l. So, em,
>>>sorry.
>>>Regards -- Markus
>>
>>So it is OK to encourage Toad Harrop on c.l.l but you /apologize/ for
>>doing so here? I can see why you like his style of Usenet
>>participation.
>
>
> I apologize for responding on c.l.f to a post which only went to
> c.l.l. Check you facts. And leave us alone, if possible.
>
>
>>Instead of yelling at me with whom you have no influence, why don't
>>you talk to Jonny boy about /his/ behavior? Oh, I forgot, he is a fine
>>Usenet citizen....
>>
>><sigh>
>
>
> If I were afflicted like you, I'd also sigh. Deeply.
>
> - M
>
> And BTW: *Plonk*.
>
Damn! I was going to try to persuade Markus at least to admit that he
was a dork for defending himself from having glowed on the frog when in
fact as damien just quoted it was Ulf who defended amphibios as
productive and fascinating when the best comp.langs around are rife with
traffic trying to stomp out this vermin. c.l.lisp, c.l.c++... even an
msn c## group reveals people putting up frog traps to rid themselves of
Dr. Jon Harrop.
But as someone, else noted, all in all this is an occasion for
compassion, for Jon obviously has issues, and clearly The Real Problem
is dummies everywhere who read his nonsense and think, Oh! I know what
to say that will really put him in his place! Fool me once, shame on
you, fool me twice, shame on me, and I am a little scared to think what
might be the penalty for the bozos falling for Jon's baiting time and
again like so many -- what was that, Samantha? -- dumb monkeys?
[btw, Samantha, my dev team is /not/ pleased with your comment -- not
one of them has even considered responding to His Jonness.]
kzo
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
Ken Tilton wrote:
>
> Damn! I was going to try to persuade Markus at least to admit that he
> was a dork for defending himself from having glowed on the frog when in
> fact as damien just quoted it was Ulf who defended amphibios as
> productive and fascinating when the best comp.langs around are rife with
> traffic trying to stomp out this vermin. c.l.lisp, c.l.c++... even an
> msn c## group reveals people putting up frog traps to rid themselves of
> Dr. Jon Harrop.
I wrote:
"I have no quarrel with Jon, and people for whom I have the
highest regard have praised some of his work. That goes
a fair way in my book"
In your book, that may be a glowing testimonial...
Personally, I prefer to be judged on exactly what I write.
Every single word in that sentence was chosen with care.
I have heard Jon being commended by people whom I would give
a glowing testimonial any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I will not name them, since I doubt they would appreciate
being dragged into this mud-slinging contest.
BR,
Ulf W
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <sZHXi.18$EY1.9@newsfe08.lga>
Ulf Wiger wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>
>> Damn! I was going to try to persuade Markus at least to admit that he
>> was a dork for defending himself from having glowed on the frog when
>> in fact as damien just quoted it was Ulf who defended amphibios as
>> productive and fascinating when the best comp.langs around are rife
>> with traffic trying to stomp out this vermin. c.l.lisp, c.l.c++...
>> even an msn c## group reveals people putting up frog traps to rid
>> themselves of Dr. Jon Harrop.
>
>
> I wrote:
>
> "I have no quarrel with Jon, and people for whom I have the
> highest regard have praised some of his work. That goes
> a fair way in my book"
>
> In your book, that may be a glowing testimonial...
> Personally, I prefer to be judged on exactly what I write.
> Every single word in that sentence was chosen with care.
>
> I have heard Jon being commended by people whom I would give
> a glowing testimonial any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
> I will not name them, since I doubt they would appreciate
> being dragged into this mud-slinging contest.
Jon is a pest here and on other groups, and you supported him. You were
the one who responded to my joking "how did you get rid of him" with
"why would we want to get rid of him?", said he was fine, repeating the
praise even more strongly above. You and Markus have a lot of energy for
whining about my cross-posting his great behavior to c.l.f, why don't
you instead take the hint, withdraw your support of Jon's behavior and
take him aside for an e-chat?
Why do you and Markus support Jon despoiling c.l.l and other sites but
complain about me cross-posting the furor to c.l.f? Is that because you
do not read the other groups? If so, well, I do, so you should not be
puzzled by my reaction. Is it because his behavior is Ok for c.l.l but
not c.l.f because c.l.f is a higher-class group? What is it? Why are
you upset at me, not upset at Jon, and positively supporting Jon?
kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
(After this, I will not respond to anymore follow-ups in this
thread.)
Ken Tilton wrote:
>
> Jon is a pest here and on other groups, and you supported him.
It's funny how some parts of your posts are completely ignored
while others are given huge importance, no matter what you do
to try to correct it.
> You were the one who responded to my joking "how did you get rid
> of him" with "why would we want to get rid of him?",
> said he was fine, repeating the praise even more strongly above.
I allowed myself to be provoked by your willfully insulting
tone in an otherwise reasonably interesting thread, which btw
had nothing to do with Jon Harrop (he did participate, but as
far as I could tell, none of his posts were provocative). Since
I was already annoyed by your admission of abusing others for
your own amusement, I took the bait about Jon as well, not
because I have any particular reason to defend him, but because
I strongly dislike ad-hominem campaigns, and especially when
they come with implications that you haven't made yourself
useful until you've joined the bashing.
One of the things I do not want to be part of is speaking
ill of a third person in a public forum. If you want to say
something about another person, you either say it with respect,
or address that person directly. We all have different sore
spots, I guess. To me, insulting and maligning others is far
worse than posting O.T. or resorting to shameless plugs.
> You and Markus have a lot of energy for
> whining about my cross-posting his great behavior to c.l.f,
> why don't you instead take the hint, withdraw your support
> of Jon's behavior and take him aside for an e-chat?
I have never voiced an opinion about his behaviour on c.l.l.
and have even been pretty clear about the fact that I'm not
going to. I did spend time browsing articles on c.l.l. to get
a feeling for the apparent controversy. I got the impression
that c.l.l. accepts language that is not accepted in c.l.f.,
and is practically unheard of on the erlang-questions mailing
list, which is the public forum that gets the most of my
attention. I don't have a problem with this, as I can choose
which forums I want to frequent. But this means that I will
refrain from passing judgment on people's behaviour in
forums that I'm not familiar with.
> Is it because his behavior is Ok for c.l.l but
> not c.l.f because c.l.f is a higher-class group?
Just different. It's not a question of better or worse,
but rather a cultural difference. What passes unnoticed
in some cultures can be a stoning offense in others.
BR,
Ulf W
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <AYXXi.1$o41.0@newsfe09.lga>
Ulf Wiger wrote:
>
> (After this, I will not respond to anymore follow-ups in this
> thread.)
>
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>
>> Jon is a pest here and on other groups, and you supported him.
>
>
> It's funny how some parts of your posts are completely ignored
> while others are given huge importance, no matter what you do
> to try to correct it.
>
> > You were the one who responded to my joking "how did you get rid
> > of him" with "why would we want to get rid of him?",
> > said he was fine, repeating the praise even more strongly above.
>
> I allowed myself to be provoked by your willfully insulting
> tone in an otherwise reasonably interesting thread, which btw
> had nothing to do with Jon Harrop (he did participate, but as
> far as I could tell, none of his posts were provocative). Since
> I was already annoyed by your admission of abusing others for
> your own amusement, I took the bait about Jon as well, not
> because I have any particular reason to defend him, but because
> I strongly dislike ad-hominem campaigns, and especially when
> they come with implications that you haven't made yourself
> useful until you've joined the bashing.
>
> One of the things I do not want to be part of is speaking
> ill of a third person in a public forum. If you want to say
> something about another person, you either say it with respect,
> or address that person directly. We all have different sore
> spots, I guess. To me, insulting and maligning others is far
> worse than posting O.T. or resorting to shameless plugs.
Nice try, counsellor, casting the spammer somehow as a "victim being
singled out for abuse". That is pretty clever spin, sorry I have to
expose it.
The only reason I got involved is because Jon is driving so many /other/
c.l.l denizens to distraction with his deliberately irritating and
provocative posts about C++ or Lisp or whatever being in decline, and
they cannot figure out that the best response is none, so c.l.l ends up
polluted with your boy's noise. Jon ignores or mocks attempts to
discourage him, as I already pointed out taunting someone so frustrated
they reported him to some agency or other.
And you want to spin that out as Kenny singling out Jon? As if.
I am starting to worry about you, Ulf, but you are joining Jon in my
killfile so as long as you can stop your irritating habit of also
emailing me your transparent defenses of Jon I won't worry much more.
kzo
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <87wssvmgb8.fsf@geddis.org>
Ulf Wiger <·········@e-r-i-c-s-s-o-n.com> wrote on Tue, 06 Nov 2007:
> If you want to say something about another person, you either say it with
> respect, or address that person directly.
This approach was attempted numerous times to the amphibian in question,
all with absolutely no results. Not even acknowledgement.
At first glance, postings from the swamp appear reasonable. But long
experience has shown c.l.l that there is no interest in truth from the
mud and muck, only propaganda and advertising. Hence: spammer.
Which is all the more frustrating when people like you attempt to take the
"reasonable" tone of assuming the best intentions, instead of the worst.
We've been through that path before. It doesn't end well (for us).
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
Chu P'ing-man spent a thousand in gold and three years learning dragon killing
from Hunchback Yi only to learn there was no place for him to practice his art.
On Nov 6, 11:31 am, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
> Ulf Wiger <·········@e-r-i-c-s-s-o-n.com> wrote on Tue, 06 Nov 2007:
>
> > If you want to say something about another person, you either say it with
> > respect, or address that person directly.
>
> This approach was attempted numerous times to the amphibian in question,
> all with absolutely no results. Not even acknowledgement.
The question that comes to mind is the following: Has the "other"
approach, i.e., the one you seem to be advocating here, yielded better
results in the past? If not, perhaps being more civil would tend to
have its own merits, independent of whether or not it "works" on JH.
Just an outsider opinion...
Cheers,
F.
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <877ikvlze0.fsf@geddis.org>
··········@gmail.com wrote on Tue, 06 Nov 2007:
> On Nov 6, 11:31 am, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>> Ulf Wiger <·········@e-r-i-c-s-s-o-n.com> wrote on Tue, 06 Nov 2007:
>> > If you want to say something about another person, you either say it with
>> > respect, or address that person directly.
>>
>> This approach was attempted numerous times to the amphibian in question,
>> all with absolutely no results. Not even acknowledgement.
>
> The question that comes to mind is the following: Has the "other"
> approach, i.e., the one you seem to be advocating here, yielded better
> results in the past?
Not for the troll himself, no.
The issue is that the troll feeds on people taking him at face value, and
posting followup after followup. So the hope is that widespread common
knowledge about the nature of the troll would reduce the number of honest
posters who get sucked into the threads.
> If not, perhaps being more civil would tend to have its own merits,
> independent of whether or not it "works" on JH.
But then you have either an unending series of heartfelt corrections to the
misinformation (always ignored), or perhaps worse you leave the erroneous
statements unchallenged, and lurking readers assume the false information
has widespread agreement.
There really isn't an easy fix. Educating normal people about the spammer
nature of the postings is the current approach. And is hampered by people
(generally new to the party) who think we're being unfair to a guest.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
We are soulless bags of walking meat and water, doomed to toil in misery.
On Nov 6, 5:36 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
> There really isn't an easy fix. Educating normal people about the spammer
> nature of the postings is the current approach. And is hampered by people
> (generally new to the party) who think we're being unfair to a guest.
Hmm, I'm just not so sure if the cure isn't perhaps worse than the
disease here...
F.
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <NN9Yi.59$p17.8@newsfe08.lga>
··········@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 6, 5:36 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>
>>There really isn't an easy fix. Educating normal people about the spammer
>>nature of the postings is the current approach. And is hampered by people
>>(generally new to the party) who think we're being unfair to a guest.
>
>
> Hmm, I'm just not so sure if the cure isn't perhaps worse than the
> disease here...
How much do you know about the disease? The jonjerk has been a plague on
c.l.l for months. You have seen a week of the admittedly unfortunate
cure, you might not be the best judge.
What I see is a bunch of c.l.f finger-shakers responding to an
admittedly noxious Harrop spillover by asking why c.l.l simply does not
build a higher retaining wall.
We did, we're trying something new. Well, I am. :)
kzo
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
Ken Tilton wrote:
> ··········@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Nov 6, 5:36 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>>
>>>There really isn't an easy fix. Educating normal people about the spammer
>>>nature of the postings is the current approach. And is hampered by people
>>>(generally new to the party) who think we're being unfair to a guest.
>> Hmm, I'm just not so sure if the cure isn't perhaps worse than the
>> disease here...
>
> How much do you know about the disease? The jonjerk has been a plague
> on c.l.l for months. You have seen a week of the admittedly
> unfortunate cure, you might not be the best judge.
Only we didn't have the disease here. If you were a doctor, you'd get
sued for malpractice for sure.
> What I see is a bunch of c.l.f finger-shakers responding to an
> admittedly noxious Harrop spillover by asking why c.l.l simply does
> not build a higher retaining wall.
>
> We did, we're trying something new. Well, I am. :)
Yes, involving people far far away and taking hostages. Well, since
you're obviously admitting to your misdeeds, it turned out you did all
this puposely and there is no promise of betterment, I think we can as
well have a try how abuse AT cv DOT net works, can't we?
Regards -- Markus
Markus E L
<·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>> ··········@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Nov 6, 5:36 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>There really isn't an easy fix. Educating normal people about the spammer
>>>>nature of the postings is the current approach. And is hampered by people
>>>>(generally new to the party) who think we're being unfair to a guest.
>>> Hmm, I'm just not so sure if the cure isn't perhaps worse than the
>>> disease here...
>>
>> How much do you know about the disease? The jonjerk has been a plague
>> on c.l.l for months. You have seen a week of the admittedly
>> unfortunate cure, you might not be the best judge.
>
> Only we didn't have the disease here. If you were a doctor, you'd get
> sued for malpractice for sure.
>
>> What I see is a bunch of c.l.f finger-shakers responding to an
>> admittedly noxious Harrop spillover by asking why c.l.l simply does
>> not build a higher retaining wall.
>>
>> We did, we're trying something new. Well, I am. :)
>
> Yes, involving people far far away and taking hostages. Well, since
> you're obviously admitting to your misdeeds, it turned out you did all
> this puposely and there is no promise of betterment, I think we can as
> well have a try how abuse AT cv DOT net works, can't we?
>
> Regards -- Markus
Now you have to be careful, Markus. Because, well, saying "Regards"
after threatening a person to be denounced to a third party (by you)
is, well, not exactly the kind of behavior you are asking from others...
I don't want to defend Kenny - he is of course well able to do so for
himself - but I *do* get nervous about moralists that simply have no
clue what they are talking about.
And, well, if you're not used to c.l.l speak so just shut up.
Killfiled.
Frank
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG wrote:
> Markus E L
> <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
>
>> Ken Tilton wrote:
>>
>>> ··········@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Nov 6, 5:36 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>There really isn't an easy fix. Educating normal people about the spammer
>>>>>nature of the postings is the current approach. And is hampered by people
>>>>>(generally new to the party) who think we're being unfair to a guest.
>>>> Hmm, I'm just not so sure if the cure isn't perhaps worse than the
>>>> disease here...
>>>
>>> How much do you know about the disease? The jonjerk has been a plague
>>> on c.l.l for months. You have seen a week of the admittedly
>>> unfortunate cure, you might not be the best judge.
>>
>> Only we didn't have the disease here. If you were a doctor, you'd get
>> sued for malpractice for sure.
>>
>>> What I see is a bunch of c.l.f finger-shakers responding to an
>>> admittedly noxious Harrop spillover by asking why c.l.l simply does
>>> not build a higher retaining wall.
>>>
>>> We did, we're trying something new. Well, I am. :)
>>
>> Yes, involving people far far away and taking hostages. Well, since
>> you're obviously admitting to your misdeeds, it turned out you did all
>> this puposely and there is no promise of betterment, I think we can as
>> well have a try how abuse AT cv DOT net works, can't we?
>>
>> Regards -- Markus
>
> Now you have to be careful, Markus. Because, well, saying "Regards"
> after threatening a person to be denounced to a third party (by you)
> is, well, not exactly the kind of behavior you are asking from others...
Oh god, yes, terrible. Absolutely hypocritical. Personally I expect
abuse AT whatever to only take action for really huge
transgression. The "abuse" addresses have nothing to do with sending a
cease and desist or "denouncing" people. Usually somebody who is being
blocked by the abuse team has deserved it richly. So why do you fear
anything if all you, Ken's and Nicolas' actions have been so beyond
blame?
And BTW: You're also at the University of Stuttgart and were on of the
perpetrators, I just notice. Hm.
And again: Regards -- Markus
> I don't want to defend Kenny - he is of course well able to do so for
> himself - but I *do* get nervous about moralists that simply have no
> clue what they are talking about.
Tststs. Either "Kenny" is in violation of just a bit more than only
netiquette -- then the most he would get is what he deserves -- or he
is not -- then he certainly has nothing to fear, given the usual
disinclination nowadays of abuse teams to take action.
Weren't you all so much for _justice_? At least when it concerned Jon
Harrop? I for my part don't even send out a lynch mob, I just follow
official channels (which are there for a reason: Hint: Lynch mobs are
considered a bad idea in most reference frames for justice. Why?)
> And, well, if you're not used to c.l.l speak so just shut up.
Hm, I'm not talking from c.l.l. I'm writing from c.l.f. Which you
involved into this thread. So perhaps you should shut up? Or should
not even have begun speaking (cross-posting) at all?
> Killfiled.
Good. Please also remove c.l.f from your mindscape, then we'll all be
happy.
Regards -- Markus
Markus E L
<·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
>
> Oh god, yes, terrible. Absolutely hypocritical. Personally I expect
> abuse AT whatever to only take action for really huge
> transgression. The "abuse" addresses have nothing to do with sending a
> cease and desist or "denouncing" people.
I see that there's a bit of explanation needed for the more simple
minded citizens in c.l.f:
It's the very fact of giving notice to a 3rd party of someone's
behavior that is in itself an act of denounciation. It's so easy: Just
let the cops find out for themselves.
> Usually somebody who is being
> blocked by the abuse team has deserved it richly.
I do have problems accepting that the "deserved it richly" is decided
upon without being based on constitutional rules. And no, the "common
sense" crap doesn't apply here.
> So why do you fear
> anything if all you, Ken's and Nicolas' actions have been so beyond
> blame?
Because this leads to a situation that especially Eastern Germany
citizens should be very aware of.
> And BTW: You're also at the University of Stuttgart and were on of the
> perpetrators, I just notice. Hm.
Hm - I just see you are in Eastern Germany: Rostock. Just to be sure
you are not attacking someone else: I'm not at the University of
Stuttgart but happen to live in that area. Also: What, actually, are
you accusing me of? I am asking because I have been marked
"perpetrator".
>
> And again: Regards -- Markus
Nice logo on your web page, btw.
>> I don't want to defend Kenny - he is of course well able to do so for
>> himself - but I *do* get nervous about moralists that simply have no
>> clue what they are talking about.
>
> Tststs. Either "Kenny" is in violation of just a bit more than only
> netiquette -- then the most he would get is what he deserves -- or he
> is not -- then he certainly has nothing to fear, given the usual
> disinclination nowadays of abuse teams to take action.
I strongly recommend you reread this. And think about it again - now
that you might have understood and seen the road you're on.
>
> Weren't you all so much for _justice_? At least when it concerned Jon
> Harrop?
Ah - now I see. That is simply not true. I (as I only can and want to
speak for myself) don't want justice. Justice is a concept with too
many trues to be a thing trying to achieve on Usenet. I simply want
Mr Frog to shut up talking about anything else than Lisp coding on
c.l.l - nothing more. When we talk about Lisp coding challenges
everyone is just welcome here.
> I for my part don't even send out a lynch mob, I just follow
> official channels
Nobody every left the keyboard so far. Oh - to me "official channels"
is Police. No abuse at whatever org ...
> (which are there for a reason: Hint: Lynch mobs are
> considered a bad idea in most reference frames for justice. Why?)
Again: It's not about justice. It's about *effect*.
>
>> And, well, if you're not used to c.l.l speak so just shut up.
>
> Hm, I'm not talking from c.l.l. I'm writing from c.l.f. Which you
> involved into this thread. So perhaps you should shut up? Or should
> not even have begun speaking (cross-posting) at all?
Hehe. I did as you yourself claimed the right to do so for yourself.
>
>> Killfiled.
>
> Good. Please also remove c.l.f from your mindscape, then we'll all be
> happy.
It's not c.l.f that I have to remove from my mindscape. Oh, btw, did
you ever do Lisp coding? I have done so - even in a functional
style. Now what do want to discuss about functional programming in
Lisp here?
>
> Regards -- Markus
>
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org> writes:
> Markus E L writes:
>> ..
>> And BTW: You're also at the University of Stuttgart and were on of the
>> perpetrators, I just notice. Hm.
My god, this guy really has no clue about German geography. Everything in
the south is Stuttgart for him.
> Hm - I just see you are in Eastern Germany: Rostock.
Interesting. I have seen this combination of mediocre intelligence and
arrogance in several Germans on comp.lang.lisp[*], and an astonishingly
large proportion turned out to be from the Eastern (former GDR) part of
Germany (I asked them privately in several cases). It probably indicates
some defect in the (East?) German educational system.
Nicolas
[*] Most of them were torn into pieces by Erik in his prime time, thus the
last case was (luckily) quite some time ago.
--
"Call me a troll. :-) You wouldn't be the first one."
Markus E L in
<http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/70bee58f08bfa18c>
On Nov 10, 11:46 am, Nicolas Neuss <········@math.uni-karlsruhe.de>
wrote:
> > Hm - I just see you are in Eastern Germany: Rostock.
>
> Interesting. I have seen this combination of mediocre intelligence and
> arrogance in several Germans on comp.lang.lisp[*], and an astonishingly
> large proportion turned out to be from the Eastern (former GDR) part of
> Germany (I asked them privately in several cases). It probably indicates
> some defect in the (East?) German educational system
The bigotry expressed in this very paragraph seems to indicate that
these defects aren't necessarily limited to the east german system.
(However, I find it far more likely that it is due to an individual
character flaw.)
The good thing about netnews is that comments like this stick around
forever, and you might find your self regretting your wholesale
attacks on a large subset of your contemporaries...
Regards,
F.
Nicolas Neuss wrote:
> Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org> writes:
>
>> Markus E L writes:
>>> ..
>>> And BTW: You're also at the University of Stuttgart and were on of the
>>> perpetrators, I just notice. Hm.
>
> My god, this guy really has no clue about German geography. Everything in
> the south is Stuttgart for him.
Yes, I actually didn't pay attention. You're not so important, that's
the only excuse I have - and a meagre one at that. And I really don't
know why I located Frank near Stuttgart. But neither do I care. The
X-Complaint addresses should work regardless (well: I see Frank's
provider is t-online, so he'lle probably safe :-). Doesn't take I jota
away from the fact that he certainly belongs to the trio (Ken, Frank,
Nicolas) who actively forwarded/CC'ed insulting articles to c.l.f.
>> Hm - I just see you are in Eastern Germany: Rostock.
>
> Interesting. I have seen this combination of mediocre intelligence and
> arrogance in several Germans on comp.lang.lisp[*], and an astonishingly
> large proportion turned out to be from the Eastern (former GDR) part of
> Germany (I asked them privately in several cases). It probably indicates
> some defect in the (East?) German educational system.
That's funny. :-). For reasons you won't comprehend. And the joke is
on you :-)).
> Nicolas
>
> [*] Most of them were torn into pieces by Erik in his prime time, thus the
> last case was (luckily) quite some time ago.
Yes, a big hurray for Erik, the hero of c.l.l. BTW: You three are
aspiring to become like Erik? Is he your role model? Is that your
motivation? How's real live going for you, or is that completely
dissociated from your online activities for you?
- Markus
Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de>
writes:
>> Interesting. I have seen this combination of mediocre intelligence and
>> arrogance in several Germans on comp.lang.lisp[*], and an astonishingly
>> large proportion turned out to be from the Eastern (former GDR) part of
>> Germany (I asked them privately in several cases). It probably
>> indicates some defect in the (East?) German educational system.
>
> That's funny. :-). For reasons you won't comprehend. And the joke is
> on you :-)).
You are always so sure. Why? Herewith I declare that I regret this
paragraph and would like to take it back. You know, when writing it I
thought about it being applied to myself, and more or less accepted it,
because a rephrasing without distorting what I wanted to say was not
obvious to me and would have taken me too much time. The remark surely was
not meant to say that the majority of c.l.l. trolls are (East) Germans.
But empirically, a certain type of people seems to be especially
susceptible to the type of bait contained in Erik's or also Kenny's posts,
and explode when their leg is being pulled (as you did at the beginning).
And this might indeed be connected with a certain type of people educated
in a certain way.
> Yes, a big hurray for Erik, the hero of c.l.l. BTW: You three are
> aspiring to become like Erik? Is he your role model? Is that your
> motivation? How's real live going for you, or is that completely
> dissociated from your online activities for you?
You very much love to generalize and to simplify: those morons of c.l.l,
the c.l.l plot against c.l.f, Erik the hero of c.l.l, Kenny, Frank, and me
being the same, and so on. This is wrong in every case. It yould help
future discussions very much if you would stop that.
> - Markus
I'll stop here. This thread has continued already much too long.
Nicolas
'F DOT Bellheim AT gmail DOT com' wrote:
> On Nov 6, 5:36 pm, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>> There really isn't an easy fix. Educating normal people about the spammer
>> nature of the postings is the current approach. And is hampered by people
>> (generally new to the party) who think we're being unfair to a guest.
>
> Hmm, I'm just not so sure if the cure isn't perhaps worse than the
> disease here...
Especially if the cure doesn't work. Still: Can anybody of the
"doctors" answer to me why the cure spilled over to c.l.f. I still see
no reason - except a certain spitefulness against c.l.f. Why?
- Markus
Don Geddis wrote:
> There really isn't an easy fix.
> Educating normal people about the spammer
> nature of the postings is the current approach.
If you call the expletive filled postings of KT and those of NN
"educating", your idea of education differs largely from mine.
> And is hampered by people (generally new to the party) who think
> we're being unfair to a guest.
You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're just
the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't own
c.l.l. Still: I'd leave that problem to the c.l.l netizens to solve
(wether they want you or Ken doing the police there) if you kindly
left c.l.f alone. You got your hampering opposition now, only because
you tried to extend your stupid fight (and your bad behaviour) to
c.l.f. I'm only ever reading c.l.f. Ask yourself: Why is that pesky ML
meddling again? Well -- because Ken and Nicolas couldn't leave c.l.f
well alone.
My suggestion: Don't do a follow up on this post. Don't ever begin
(again) to crosspost responses in your stupid war to c.l.f and people
from c.l.f will leave you alone trying your new educational methods
with Jon (but my ommiseration: From my point of view it looks as if
anybody will have to learn something in this, it will be you (and Ken
and Nicolas - BTW Rainer has not crossposted to c.l.f yet in this
thread, so there is hope that people, even if the don't make peace
learn at least to keep truce - if they are able to learn at all).
- M
Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
<a load of tosh>
Gee Markus, you're really redefining 'pompous ass'...
From: Joachim Durchholz
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <fgtf4q$tit$1@online.de>
Don Geddis schrieb:
> Educating normal people about the spammer
> nature of the postings is the current approach.
I have seen you calling names ("amphibian"). That's not educational,
that's just flamage, and one of the criteria that can make somebody an
inhabitant of my killfile.
In fact the list of inhabitants and candidates for my killfile is
exclusively made up of c.l.l. members. I think you guys have a flamage
problem over there.
I suggest considering making the newsgroup moderated, or setting up
comp.lang.lisp.moderated. It's the best cure for this kind of problem.
Regards,
Jo
On Nov 7, 11:45 pm, Joachim Durchholz <····@durchholz.org> wrote:
> Don Geddis schrieb:
>
> > Educating normal people about the spammer
> > nature of the postings is the current approach.
>
> I have seen you calling names ("amphibian"). That's not educational,
> that's just flamage, and one of the criteria that can make somebody an
> inhabitant of my killfile.
>
> In fact the list of inhabitants and candidates for my killfile is
> exclusively made up of c.l.l. members. I think you guys have a flamage
> problem over there.
> I suggest considering making the newsgroup moderated, or setting up
> comp.lang.lisp.moderated. It's the best cure for this kind of problem.
>
> Regards,
> Jo
We just request that Jon Harrop accepts that comp.lang.lisp is not
there for his
spamming activities. We don't need to turn comp.lang.lisp to a
moderated newsgroup
just because one individual is abusing the newsgroup. Sure, he has
been banned
on Wikipedia, on IRC channels he gets 'kicked' and on Lambda the
Ultimate
he has been warned that his posts might get moderated. comp.lang.lisp
is an open forum, and it is a bit difficult to deal with such an
abuse.
But that is not the problem of comp.lang.lisp, it is the problem of
Jon Harrop who has been posting lies and advertizings. He has no
interest in Lisp at all, the criteria for a useful
participation in comp.lang.lisp. Criticism is fine, controversy too,
but plain spamming is not. His topics may be on-topic for
comp.lang.functional,
they are off-topic for comp.lang.lisp. OCAML, OCAML services, OCAML
libraries, OCAML consulting, F# at Microsoft, etc. is totally
irrelevant
for a Lisp newsgroup. If comp.lang.functional likes to see commercial
announcements and language advocacy for Functional Programming,
then the best place Mr. Harrop can use is comp.lang.functional .
But what he wants at comp.lang.lisp is to advertize his business
offerings - though this is not the only newsgroup he did that.
He got a little 'famous' for his spamming activities.
If he continues to do that, even though he has multiple
times been explained to stop that, he should not wonder
that the tone gets more aggressive.
On Nov 7, 3:05 pm, ······@corporate-world.lisp.de wrote:
> On Nov 7, 11:45 pm, Joachim Durchholz <····@durchholz.org> wrote:
...
> If comp.lang.functional likes to see commercial
> announcements and language advocacy for Functional Programming,
> then the best place Mr. Harrop can use is comp.lang.functional .
...
I don't mind so long as it is tasteful and non-repetious. Jon is one
of only a few attempting to make a living via functional programming.
It is of some interest to learn what he is doing and attempt to
understand why he prefers features that I find abhorently dangereous
(in a setting of embedded computing, for example).
On Nov 7, 3:05 pm, ······@corporate-world.lisp.de wrote:
> On Nov 7, 11:45 pm, Joachim Durchholz <····@durchholz.org> wrote:
...
> If comp.lang.functional likes to see commercial
> announcements and language advocacy for Functional Programming,
> then the best place Mr. Harrop can use is comp.lang.functional .
...
I don't mind so long as it is tasteful and non-repetious. Jon is one
of only a few attempting to make a living via functional programming.
It is of some interest to learn what he is doing and attempt to
understand why he prefers features that I find abhorently dangereous
(in a setting of embedded computing, for example).
On Nov 7, 3:05 pm, ······@corporate-world.lisp.de wrote:
> On Nov 7, 11:45 pm, Joachim Durchholz <····@durchholz.org> wrote:
...
> If comp.lang.functional likes to see commercial
> announcements and language advocacy for Functional Programming,
> then the best place Mr. Harrop can use is comp.lang.functional .
...
I don't mind so long as it is tasteful and non-repitious. Jon is one
of only a few attempting to make a living via functional programming.
It is of some interest to learn what he is doind and attempt to
understand why he prefers features that I find abhorently dangereous
(in a setting of embedded computing, for example).
······@corporate-world.lisp.de wrote:
> If he continues to do that, even though he has multiple times been
> explained to stop that, he should not wonder that the tone gets more
> aggressive...
I can understand these delusions of grandeur but I cannot understand why you
would lie about me just before you accuse me of lying:
> Sure, he has been banned on Wikipedia...
Not true.
> on IRC channels he gets 'kicked'...
Also not true.
> it is the problem of Jon Harrop who has been posting lies...
Do you not think it is hugely damaging to your own position to conjure up
such flawed arguments?
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
'joswig AT corporate-world DOT lisp DOT de' wrote:
> On Nov 7, 11:45 pm, Joachim Durchholz <····@durchholz.org> wrote:
>> Don Geddis schrieb:
>>
>> > Educating normal people about the spammer
>> > nature of the postings is the current approach.
>>
>> I have seen you calling names ("amphibian"). That's not educational,
>> that's just flamage, and one of the criteria that can make somebody an
>> inhabitant of my killfile.
>>
>> In fact the list of inhabitants and candidates for my killfile is
>> exclusively made up of c.l.l. members. I think you guys have a flamage
>> problem over there.
>> I suggest considering making the newsgroup moderated, or setting up
>> comp.lang.lisp.moderated. It's the best cure for this kind of problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jo
>
> We just request that Jon Harrop accepts that comp.lang.lisp is not
> there for his
> spamming activities. We don't need to turn comp.lang.lisp to a
And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody) flame
wars with JH to c.l.f. Ist that so difficult to understand? I'm quite
sure, Jo didn't go to c.l.l and put people from there into his
killfile. I'm quite sure he only put people from c.l.l into the
killfile who came to c.l.f with a (bloody) c.l.l flame war.
So it's simply irrelevant what you're requesting. Simply stop it. Do
it in c.l.l as much as you like: But what do we in c.l.f care for what
you in c.l.l request, flame or exurgitate? Why should we, Rainer? Your
comment is just ignoring the situation.
> moderated newsgroup
> just because one individual is abusing the newsgroup. Sure, he has
> been banned
> on Wikipedia, on IRC channels he gets 'kicked' and on Lambda the
> Ultimate
> he has been warned that his posts might get moderated. comp.lang.lisp
> is an open forum, and it is a bit difficult to deal with such an
> abuse.
> But that is not the problem of comp.lang.lisp, it is the problem of
Unfortunately due to your, Ken's and Nicolas' activities this has also
become a c.l.f problem. And know what: Here it's the c.l.l activists
that have become the problem. So go away (or do you suggest we try the
same kind of cure with you (plural) as you tried with JH?).
- M
Markus E L
<·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
>> But that is not the problem of comp.lang.lisp, it is the problem of
>
> Unfortunately due to your, Ken's and Nicolas' activities this has also
> become a c.l.f problem. And know what: Here it's the c.l.l activists
> that have become the problem. So go away (or do you suggest we try the
> same kind of cure with you (plural) as you tried with JH?).
It looks like you're already trying the same kind of cure. How's that
working out for you?
I'm not an "activist", and I don't care much about what Jon Harrop
posts; I simply ignore most of what he says. But it seems you've now
turned me into an activist, in order to point out the hypocrasy of
your condemnation. It would be better for you to heed your own advice
and just stop.
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
Duane Rettig wrote:
> Markus E L
> <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
>
>>> But that is not the problem of comp.lang.lisp, it is the problem of
>>
>> Unfortunately due to your, Ken's and Nicolas' activities this has also
>> become a c.l.f problem. And know what: Here it's the c.l.l activists
>> that have become the problem. So go away (or do you suggest we try the
>> same kind of cure with you (plural) as you tried with JH?).
>
> It looks like you're already trying the same kind of cure. How's that
> working out for you?
Well, depends. Duane, I know, you have problems if I'm posting too
much, but I'm regularly appalled by the fact, that your (or Eds
answer) doesn't get the situation:
> I'm not an "activist", and I don't care much about what Jon Harrop
> posts; I simply ignore most of what he says. But it seems you've now
> turned me into an activist, in order to point out the hypocrasy of
> your condemnation.
I'm not putting c.l.l on CC, I'm just answering to cross-posts. Ken
and Nicolas started cross-posting in the middle of a flame war. That
should make a difference: The first (my behaviour) qualifies a
legitimate, the second (Ken's and Nicolas') qualifies as disruptive.
So I simply refute your accusation of hypocrisy. Perhaps you spoke up
w/o checking your facts completely. Perhaps it's the language barrier
again (but I wonder why it's always the same people, like you, who
seem not to be able to understand), but you should and could know
better. Better try next time?
> It would be better for you to heed your own advice and just stop.
Oh, come on. I did not ask anybody to stop answering. I asked to stop
_actively_ transplanting c.l.l flame wars to c.l.f. Rainer Joswig has
done that in the past, Ken Tilton and Nicolas Neuss have done it
recently. And now I say it again (and I hope it is now clear what I'm
asking): Please stop this, anybody. If you start a flame war with Jon
Harrop or anybody else, keep it in c.l.l and don't start crossposting
to c.l.f.
(I'm not asking anybody to stop this thread. It will die when it is
time, because everybody has said what needed to be said and there is
no way to stop it anyway, isn't there).
And as a message to all: Please ask yourself, how come, you got me in
c.l.l so suddenly again: Certainly not because I'm reading c.l.l,
certainly not because I've been putting c.l.l on CC and certainly not
because Jon Harrop's post original post went to c.l.f. So ask yourself
why the thread is now crossposted to both groups.
If you understand how that situation came to be, you can perhaps see,
what I don't want to see happen again: That people like Ken or Nicolas
begin crossposting their insults to c.l.f. That is what I asked to be
stopped, though I admit, considering the frame of mind of the
perpetrators: It was probably useless (and we have the same usual
suspects participating in this thread as months ago in the Jon Harrop
wars).
The other problem, the continuance of this thread is less a problem
for me (though it might be for c.l.f or c.l.l): I can always stop
reading, when I want. For the moment I just prefer to point out the
errors in the (probably well meant) responses of more normal people
who now assume a kind of symmetry between parties (which isn't there,
for the reasons given above).
Note that I don't want to punish c.l.l for Ken's or Nicolas'
behaviour. That's not why I continue answering. I've mostly not
engaged in insult (I used the word morons, though). Ken and Nicolas
on the other side definitely want to punish c.l.f (as a whole) for not
taking their side and explicitely said so AFAICS. Ken (and Nicolas?)
have also defended use of bad language, of insulting as a way of
implemeting their ideas of policy on c.l.l.
So please: Nobody accuses me, that I'm applying "the same
cure". Compare my posts to those of the perpetrators, and you'll see a
difference, me thinks. Of course, if posting is an offence in itself,
I understand your position that I'm just doing the same. Though I
would have thought the problem, especially with Ken's strategy, is not
that he responds, it's the content (and the crossposting).
Hope that is all clear now and can probably serve as an answer to some
others (to whom I'll not respond separately).
(Though I'm sure, I'll be flamed just for the number of postings of
today by people who didn't read this, because they couldn't be
bothered, but -- well, can't be helped).
Regards -- Markus
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <87d4ukfxtf.fsf@geddis.org>
Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> wrote on Thu, 08 Nov 2007:
> So please: Nobody accuses me, that I'm applying "the same cure". Compare my
> posts to those of the perpetrators, and you'll see a difference, me
> thinks.
Nope, don't see a difference. Sorry.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
Fun Facts for the Psychotic:
The cuddly "Koala bear" of Australia is actually not a "bear" at all...
...it is a telepathic cyborg that reports your thoughts to "The Council"!
-- Ruben Bolling, "Tom The Dancing Bug", #746
Don Geddis wrote:
> Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> wrote on Thu, 08 Nov 2007:
>> So please: Nobody accuses me, that I'm applying "the same cure". Compare my
>> posts to those of the perpetrators, and you'll see a difference, me
>> thinks.
>
> Nope, don't see a difference. Sorry.
Selective quoting.
- M
Markus E L wrote:
> Duane Rettig wrote:
>
>> Markus E L
>> <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
>>
>>>> But that is not the problem of comp.lang.lisp, it is the problem of
>>> Unfortunately due to your, Ken's and Nicolas' activities this has also
>>> become a c.l.f problem. And know what: Here it's the c.l.l activists
>>> that have become the problem. So go away (or do you suggest we try the
>>> same kind of cure with you (plural) as you tried with JH?).
>> It looks like you're already trying the same kind of cure. How's that
>> working out for you?
>
> Well, depends. Duane, I know, you have problems if I'm posting too
> much, but I'm regularly appalled by the fact, that your (or Eds
> answer) doesn't get the situation:
>
>> I'm not an "activist", and I don't care much about what Jon Harrop
>> posts; I simply ignore most of what he says. But it seems you've now
>> turned me into an activist, in order to point out the hypocrasy of
>> your condemnation.
>
> I'm not putting c.l.l on CC, I'm just answering to cross-posts. Ken
> and Nicolas started cross-posting in the middle of a flame war. That
> should make a difference: The first (my behaviour) qualifies a
> legitimate, the second (Ken's and Nicolas') qualifies as disruptive.
>
> So I simply refute your accusation of hypocrisy. Perhaps you spoke up
> w/o checking your facts completely. Perhaps it's the language barrier
> again (but I wonder why it's always the same people, like you, who
> seem not to be able to understand), but you should and could know
> better. Better try next time?
>
>> It would be better for you to heed your own advice and just stop.
>
> Oh, come on. I did not ask anybody to stop answering. I asked to stop
> _actively_ transplanting c.l.l flame wars to c.l.f. Rainer Joswig has
> done that in the past, Ken Tilton and Nicolas Neuss have done it
> recently. And now I say it again (and I hope it is now clear what I'm
> asking): Please stop this, anybody. If you start a flame war with Jon
> Harrop or anybody else, keep it in c.l.l and don't start crossposting
> to c.l.f.
>
> (I'm not asking anybody to stop this thread. It will die when it is
> time, because everybody has said what needed to be said and there is
> no way to stop it anyway, isn't there).
>
> And as a message to all: Please ask yourself, how come, you got me in
> c.l.l so suddenly again: Certainly not because I'm reading c.l.l,
> certainly not because I've been putting c.l.l on CC and certainly not
> because Jon Harrop's post original post went to c.l.f. So ask yourself
> why the thread is now crossposted to both groups.
>
> If you understand how that situation came to be, you can perhaps see,
> what I don't want to see happen again: That people like Ken or Nicolas
> begin crossposting their insults to c.l.f. That is what I asked to be
> stopped, though I admit, considering the frame of mind of the
> perpetrators: It was probably useless (and we have the same usual
> suspects participating in this thread as months ago in the Jon Harrop
> wars).
>
> The other problem, the continuance of this thread is less a problem
> for me (though it might be for c.l.f or c.l.l): I can always stop
> reading, when I want. For the moment I just prefer to point out the
> errors in the (probably well meant) responses of more normal people
> who now assume a kind of symmetry between parties (which isn't there,
> for the reasons given above).
>
> Note that I don't want to punish c.l.l for Ken's or Nicolas'
> behaviour. That's not why I continue answering. I've mostly not
> engaged in insult (I used the word morons, though). Ken and Nicolas
> on the other side definitely want to punish c.l.f (as a whole) for not
> taking their side and explicitely said so AFAICS. Ken (and Nicolas?)
> have also defended use of bad language, of insulting as a way of
> implemeting their ideas of policy on c.l.l.
>
> So please: Nobody accuses me, that I'm applying "the same
> cure". Compare my posts to those of the perpetrators, and you'll see a
> difference, me thinks. Of course, if posting is an offence in itself,
> I understand your position that I'm just doing the same. Though I
> would have thought the problem, especially with Ken's strategy, is not
> that he responds, it's the content (and the crossposting).
Once folks start complaining about other folks we go straight to the
jail of self-reference do not collect $100. Above you try some
hairsplitting to bail yourself out of that jail, and those arguments are
not without merit unless you share my perspective, which is a step or
three back from the details of the noise where I can see the whole thing
starting with JH trying to promote his commercial site on c.l.l and then
folks taking issue with his pattern of posting and then yadda yadda
yadda. Nowhere in your carefully reasoned analysis do I see mention of
Jon, just me and Nicolas and someone else I forget. You also worry over
profanity, again your microscope is a little closer than the hubble I
like to use, and before you start meta-arguing over which zoom setting
is "better" the whole problem you have with us is precisely your zoom
setting which manages to crop out the big harrop bang so you will never
make sense of our cross-posting behavior.
buddha taught that the universe is one vast interconnected web of cause
and effect. centuries later some bored physicists proved a quantum event
in another galaxy could change the outcome of a billiard shot at my
corner pub. like a good lawyer you want to limit the evidence and
testimony to those bits of the universe that support your case, viz,
that Kenny is the problem. But this is Usenet, no matter how often you
say it started with me I will cut and paste Ulf saying "Why would we
want to get rid of him, Jon rocks" and the many posts where Jon taunted
c.l.l or c.l.c++, mocking folks reporting his behavior and proudly
proclaiming "sales, not hits" is why he is here.
But you just want to say, ooh, kenny has a potty mouth, and oooh, kenny
is crossposting. guilty and guilty, ie fuck yeah!, but I am doing so
deliberately, deliberately extending the chain reaction of
unpleasantness to c.l.f so that the chain reaction gets back to Jon thru
people he respects. It does no good to appeal to my normally vast
respect for other NGs (I end up in other groups quite a bit seeking help
with the many toys I like to use developing software) because that is
not the problem, the problem is Jon messing with c.l.l folks who haven't
the sense to ignore him mainly because they themselves are so decent
they keep hoping Jon will be as well.
>
> Hope that is all clear now and can probably serve as an answer to some
> others (to whom I'll not respond separately).
>
> (Though I'm sure, I'll be flamed just for the number of postings of
> today by people who didn't read this, because they couldn't be
> bothered, but -- well, can't be helped).
A pattern emerges. :) Sh*t, I have Jon in my killfile and I am still
stuck in this spiderweb -- see what _____ started? Not to worry, I'll
get your name in there, too, I have work to do!
peace out
kenny
Ken wrote:
> yadda yadda. Nowhere in your carefully reasoned analysis do I see
> mention of Jon, just me and Nicolas and someone else I forget. You
Jon didn't begin to cross-post insults to other news groups. It's as
simple as that.
Goodbye -- Markus
From: Thomas Lindgren
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <878x585ues.fsf@dev.null>
Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
> And as a message to all: Please ask yourself, how come, you got me in
> c.l.l so suddenly again:
Because, like the scorpion in that story, it is your nature.
--
Thomas Lindgren "It was all very mechanical -- but
that's the way planetside life is." -- RAW
Thomas Lindgren wrote:
> Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> writes:
>
>> And as a message to all: Please ask yourself, how come, you got me in
>> c.l.l so suddenly again:
>
> Because, like the scorpion in that story, it is your nature.
And it's Ken's nature to just add c.l.f as recipient to his
insults. Strange. Of course that explains everything: Your answer as
well: It's just the nature of the person in question.
- M
On Nov 8, 12:01 am, Markus E L
> And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody) flame
> wars with JH to c.l.f.
Quuoting one Markus E L:
"You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're just
the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't own
c.l.l."
You don't get it both ways.
On Nov 8, 4:18 pm, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 12:01 am, Markus E L
>
> > And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody) flame
> > wars with JH to c.l.f.
>
> Quuoting one Markus E L:
> "You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're just
> the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't own
> c.l.l."
>
> You don't get it both ways.
Neither do you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a problem in
your community and the grand plan to fix it is to try to mess up
someone elses. Whether or not this is a rational approach and "hitting
Jon where it hurts" in "the one newsgroup he takes seriously" is
likely to work (seems doubtful but who knows) it seems pretty
inconsiderate to the people minding their own business using c.l.f.
From: Kamen TOMOV
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <u8x587e0u.fsf@cybuild.com>
On Thu, Nov 08 2007, Jim Burton wrote:
> On Nov 8, 4:18 pm, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
>> On Nov 8, 12:01 am, Markus E L
>>
>> > And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody)
>> > flame wars with JH to c.l.f.
>>
>> Quuoting one Markus E L:
>> "You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're
>> just the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't
>> own c.l.l."
>>
>> You don't get it both ways.
>
> Neither do you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a problem in
> your community and the grand plan to fix it is to try to mess up
> someone elses.
Wrong guess - no need to try again.
--
Kamen
On Nov 8, 7:06 pm, Kamen TOMOV <·····@cybuild.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 08 2007, Jim Burton wrote:
> > On Nov 8, 4:18 pm, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
> >> On Nov 8, 12:01 am, Markus E L
>
> >> > And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody)
> >> > flame wars with JH to c.l.f.
>
> >> Quuoting one Markus E L:
> >> "You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're
> >> just the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't
> >> own c.l.l."
>
> >> You don't get it both ways.
>
> > Neither do you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a problem in
> > your community and the grand plan to fix it is to try to mess up
> > someone elses.
>
> Wrong guess - no need to try again.
>
> --
> Kamen
Well, that's Kenny's plan, and I got the impression he was in charge.
Nice to hear it isn't a "grand plan".
On Nov 7, 2:46 am, Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
[...]
>
> Uh, the obvious to me is that we do not know yet. If Harrop never
> despoils c.l.l again then my plan of sharing his deliberate asininity
> with the one NG he treats with respect will have worked, but this will
> be yielding better results in the future, not in the past. If OTOH he
> fails to live up to the high opinion you and Ulf have of him and
> continues to ignore the c.l.l's often courteously-phrased requests to
> cease and desist his deliberate spamming then we will know my policy of
> sharing that behavior with c.l.f has failed but again in the future. So
> there is no past failure, this is something new, and if it fails you and
> Ulf will know never to ask us again why we would want to be rid of him
> because you too will want us to be rid of him so you can be rid of me.
>
> You have met the enemy, and he is one of you.
>
> hth, kzo
>
jim burton wrote:
> On Nov 8, 7:06 pm, Kamen TOMOV <·····@cybuild.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, Nov 08 2007, Jim Burton wrote:
>>
>>>On Nov 8, 4:18 pm, Tim Bradshaw <··········@tfeb.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Nov 8, 12:01 am, Markus E L
>>
>>>>>And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody)
>>>>>flame wars with JH to c.l.f.
>>
>>>>Quuoting one Markus E L:
>>>>"You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're
>>>>just the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't
>>>>own c.l.l."
>>
>>>>You don't get it both ways.
>>
>>>Neither do you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a problem in
>>>your community and the grand plan to fix it is to try to mess up
>>>someone elses.
>>
>>Wrong guess - no need to try again.
>>
>>--
>>Kamen
>
>
> Well, that's Kenny's plan, and I got the impression he was in charge.
> Nice to hear it isn't a "grand plan".
>
> On Nov 7, 2:46 am, Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
> [...]
You people really aren't coming up to speed on the vast web of cause and
effect, are you? Yes, Kenny is terrible, two wrongs don't make a right,
yadda yadda NOW WHY THE FUCK AM I HERE????????????????
Sorry. But figure it out, it's not hard, certainly easier than doing a
serious project with a one-paradigm language, let alone one that is
statically typed.
:)
Type this: given that I am misbehaving here reflecting an infantile or
psychotic or whatever personality, how did I end up on c.l.f just now
instead of during the past twelve years I've been farting around on Usenet?
Let's do a word problem (see how I manage to promote my Algebra
software? Jon taught me that): if a frog dives into a shallow puddle
from about a thousand feet up (happy thought), what will happen to
nearby puddles? Extra credit: do you blame the first puddle?
Btw, this is fun, I have killfiled Harrop, Ulf, and Markus and
unsubscribed from c.l.f and I still can't sink a shot down at my pub but
at least I have that other galaxy to blame and I still cannot escape
this thread.
:)
kenny
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
On Nov 8, 6:21 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Neither do you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a problem in
> your community and the grand plan to fix it is to try to mess up
> someone elses.
Plan? Who is planning? What community? I'm afraid I'm with Thatcher
here: there are just a bunch of individuals here, some of whom may
have plans to do various things. But "The CLL community" doesn't have
a plan, because it simply doesn't exist as the kind of entity which
could make a plan.
I was just pointing out the obvious contradiction in what Markus E L
was saying.
--tim
(Now of course, Kenny and I do have plans, but we're not generally
interested in some poxy newsgroup or other. Our plans tend to involve
black helicopters and tactical nuclear devices. As far as I know the
launch orders have been given. Kenny will confirm as he has
operational command this week.)
After all Lisp teaches bottom-up, not top-down. So there's no plan. It's
a covert operation.
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> On Nov 8, 6:21 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Neither do you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a problem in
>> your community and the grand plan to fix it is to try to mess up
>> someone elses.
>
> Plan? Who is planning? What community? I'm afraid I'm with Thatcher
> here: there are just a bunch of individuals here, some of whom may
> have plans to do various things. But "The CLL community" doesn't have
> a plan, because it simply doesn't exist as the kind of entity which
> could make a plan.
>
> I was just pointing out the obvious contradiction in what Markus E L
> was saying.
>
> --tim
>
> (Now of course, Kenny and I do have plans, but we're not generally
> interested in some poxy newsgroup or other. Our plans tend to involve
> black helicopters and tactical nuclear devices. As far as I know the
> launch orders have been given. Kenny will confirm as he has
> operational command this week.)
>
Dimiter "malkia" Stanev wrote:
> After all Lisp teaches bottom-up, not top-down. So there's no plan. It's
> a covert operation.
Nonsense! The beauty of it is that both Harrop and I are completely open
about our ulterior motives and still the threads charge on. Unlike the
inability of a deliberate mention of Hitler to function as would an
emotionally honest invocation of same to signal the end of a flamewar,
one can apparently climb up on top of the nearest car hood and announce
one is starting a flamewar just to irritate people and a crowd will
immediately form to argue with one over doing so. I once saw a nature
special in which some insect or other dragged some other dead insect
somewhere then turned around and dug a whole for it to bury it but the
researchers moved the dead insect a bit while it was digging so it had
to drag it back but while it did they filled in the hole and back and
forth this insect went indefinitely until a PETA sniper took out the
researchers. Where was I?
>
> Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>
>> On Nov 8, 6:21 pm, Jim Burton <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Neither do you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a problem in
>>> your community and the grand plan to fix it is to try to mess up
>>> someone elses.
>>
>>
>> Plan? Who is planning? What community? I'm afraid I'm with Thatcher
>> here: there are just a bunch of individuals here,
I was going to respond, Rubbish! We voted on this last night, as we did,
but well here he is Tim "loose cannon" Bradshaw announcing his own damn
non-policy policy, you win.
kenny: a man, a plan, a frog
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <87640avj1t.fsf@geddis.org>
Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote on Fri, 09 Nov 2007:
> I once saw a nature special in which some insect or other dragged some
> other dead insect somewhere then turned around and dug a whole for it to
> bury it but the researchers moved the dead insect a bit while it was
> digging so it had to drag it back but while it did they filled in the hole
> and back and forth this insect went indefinitely
Wasps, no doubt. E.g.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6Ej94XDtguMC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=wasp+instinct&source=web&ots=bbF_9-E91x&sig=MIyNkoPUPozcD11zIdH7fnCWs0U
especially in the middle of the next page (pg 56).
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]
Don Geddis wrote:
> Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote on Fri, 09 Nov 2007:
>
>>I once saw a nature special in which some insect or other dragged some
>>other dead insect somewhere then turned around and dug a whole for it to
>>bury it but the researchers moved the dead insect a bit while it was
>>digging so it had to drag it back but while it did they filled in the hole
>>and back and forth this insect went indefinitely
>
>
> Wasps, no doubt. E.g.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=6Ej94XDtguMC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=wasp+instinct&source=web&ots=bbF_9-E91x&sig=MIyNkoPUPozcD11zIdH7fnCWs0U
> especially in the middle of the next page (pg 56).
Absolutely. I wanted to say wasp but I was having trouble picturing them
walking around on the ground, seemed wrong.
thx! kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> I was just pointing out the obvious contradiction in what Markus E L
> was saying.
Yeah, look, mom, his orange has another color than my apple. Buhaaaa <cry>.
Your logic is defective.
-- Markus
On Nov 9, 12:06 pm, Markus E L
> > was saying.
>
> Yeah, look, mom, his orange has another color than my apple. Buhaaaa <cry>.
Heh. Do you think if we bait him a bit more his head will come off
completely? I do so like it when that happens.
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> On Nov 9, 12:06 pm, Markus E L
>
>>>was saying.
>>
>>Yeah, look, mom, his orange has another color than my apple. Buhaaaa <cry>.
>
>
> Heh. Do you think if we bait him a bit more his head will come off
> completely? I do so like it when that happens.
The C.L.L. Council voted last night to cease and desist on the baiting
since some participants seem not to be enjoying the fun as much as
others. This is a shame because I was having flashbacks on this thread
and wanted to introduce some concurrent art after the soccer fan got
killed during a brawl because some cop tried firing a warning shot to
break up the brawl and hit somebody and of course now it is all the
cop's fault and of course nothing to do with the brawl specifically and
soccer fan behavior in general and apparently as I write this those fans
are now burning the police station. Proponents of Big Bang Original
Cause will trace back all ensuing misfortune to the squeezing of the
trigger, which will have been a Purely Uncaused deliberate calculated
murder by the cop. Damage and I fear further death and certainly injury
will of course have been caused by the Uncaused Murder Shot and will be
fine ... hang on, I smell smoke, gotta go.
kzo
On Nov 12, 3:17 am, Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
> hang on, I smell smoke, gotta go.
>
So it was you that set fire to the Christmas pudding last night. I
thought so.
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> On Nov 8, 12:01 am, Markus E L
>> And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody) flame
>> wars with JH to c.l.f.
>
> Quuoting one Markus E L:
> "You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're just
> the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't own
> c.l.l."
Let me see: Because I crosspost answers to crossposted articles to
both groups, I must find it OK that Ken begins to crosspost to c.l.f
insults as answers to articles with c.l.l only distribution? Your
reasoning is flawed, Tim. But then I should have recognized you and
not expected anything else.
Much fun, people, in making c.l.l a better place by nuclear warfare.
Regards -- Markus
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <ufxzhqj54.fsf@agharta.de>
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 01:01:18 +0100, Markus E L <·····································@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de> wrote:
> And we just request that you refrain from CC'ing your (bloody) flame
> wars with JH to c.l.f. Ist that so difficult to understand?
>
> [...]
>
> So it's simply irrelevant what you're requesting. Simply stop it.
>
> [...]
>
> So go away
May I quote what you just replied to Don?
"You know, you don't have more rights at c.l.l than Jon. You're just
the same as he: Someone posting to c.l.l. A guest. You don't own
c.l.l."
But /you/ have more rights on c.l.f than Rainer? You're not just a
guest, but you own it? Or are you just morally superior? Or are the
rules for c.l.f different from the rules for c.l.l because it's
inhabited by better human beings?
I'd suggest that you simply get off your high horse.
Edi.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
P� Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:05:38 +0100, skrev <······@corporate-world.lisp.de>:
>
> We just request that Jon Harrop accepts that comp.lang.lisp is not
> there for his
> spamming activities. We don't need to turn comp.lang.lisp to a
> moderated newsgroup
> just because one individual is abusing the newsgroup. Sure, he has
> been banned
> on Wikipedia, on IRC channels he gets 'kicked' and on Lambda the
> Ultimate
> he has been warned that his posts might get moderated. comp.lang.lisp
> is an open forum, and it is a bit difficult to deal with such an
> abuse.
> But that is not the problem of comp.lang.lisp, it is the problem of
> Jon Harrop who has been posting lies and advertizings. He has no
> interest in Lisp at all, the criteria for a useful
> participation in comp.lang.lisp. Criticism is fine, controversy too,
> but plain spamming is not. His topics may be on-topic for
> comp.lang.functional,
> they are off-topic for comp.lang.lisp. OCAML, OCAML services, OCAML
> libraries, OCAML consulting, F# at Microsoft, etc. is totally
> irrelevant
> for a Lisp newsgroup. If comp.lang.functional likes to see commercial
> announcements and language advocacy for Functional Programming,
> then the best place Mr. Harrop can use is comp.lang.functional .
> But what he wants at comp.lang.lisp is to advertize his business
> offerings - though this is not the only newsgroup he did that.
> He got a little 'famous' for his spamming activities.
> If he continues to do that, even though he has multiple
> times been explained to stop that, he should not wonder
> that the tone gets more aggressive.
>
Jon Harrop I can stand. He usually has something tecnically relevant to
say.
These abuseive rants that go on and on are just annoying.
If you don't like what he sais just ignore him (as I usually do).
As for having a banner with his company being advertizing.. nonsence
Half the people here have that too. Is Pascal Bourgminon advertizing?
I have never seen him posting lies. He may have some misconcepions perhaps.
He does some language comparisons. The delarative vs. dynamic vaiable
issue etc.
Not entirely irrelevant..
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
In article <·················@pandora.alfanett.no>,
"John Thingstad" <·······@online.no> wrote:
> P� Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:05:38 +0100, skrev <······@corporate-world.lisp.de>:
>
> >
> > We just request that Jon Harrop accepts that comp.lang.lisp is not
> > there for his
> > spamming activities. We don't need to turn comp.lang.lisp to a
> > moderated newsgroup
> > just because one individual is abusing the newsgroup. Sure, he has
> > been banned
> > on Wikipedia, on IRC channels he gets 'kicked' and on Lambda the
> > Ultimate
> > he has been warned that his posts might get moderated. comp.lang.lisp
> > is an open forum, and it is a bit difficult to deal with such an
> > abuse.
> > But that is not the problem of comp.lang.lisp, it is the problem of
> > Jon Harrop who has been posting lies and advertizings. He has no
> > interest in Lisp at all, the criteria for a useful
> > participation in comp.lang.lisp. Criticism is fine, controversy too,
> > but plain spamming is not. His topics may be on-topic for
> > comp.lang.functional,
> > they are off-topic for comp.lang.lisp. OCAML, OCAML services, OCAML
> > libraries, OCAML consulting, F# at Microsoft, etc. is totally
> > irrelevant
> > for a Lisp newsgroup. If comp.lang.functional likes to see commercial
> > announcements and language advocacy for Functional Programming,
> > then the best place Mr. Harrop can use is comp.lang.functional .
> > But what he wants at comp.lang.lisp is to advertize his business
> > offerings - though this is not the only newsgroup he did that.
> > He got a little 'famous' for his spamming activities.
> > If he continues to do that, even though he has multiple
> > times been explained to stop that, he should not wonder
> > that the tone gets more aggressive.
> >
>
> Jon Harrop I can stand. He usually has something tecnically relevant to
> say.
Yeah, for comp.lang.functional . See the start of this thread.
Totally irrelevant to comp.lang.lisp and not at all technical.
> These abuseive rants that go on and on are just annoying.
> If you don't like what he sais just ignore him (as I usually do).
> As for having a banner with his company being advertizing.. nonsence
> Half the people here have that too. Is Pascal Bourgminon advertizing?
> I have never seen him posting lies. He may have some misconcepions perhaps.
> He does some language comparisons. The delarative vs. dynamic vaiable
> issue etc.
> Not entirely irrelevant..
'delarative vs. dynamic vaiable' ? I can't follow you.
P� Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:04:12 +0100, skrev Rainer Joswig <······@lisp.de>:
>
> 'delarative vs. dynamic vaiable' ? I can't follow you.
Maybe I wasn't clear. Static typing vs dynamic typing is what I mean.
void fun(int i) ... vs. (defun fun (i) ...
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
From: Don Geddis
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <878x59h5qr.fsf@geddis.org>
Joachim Durchholz <··@durchholz.org> wrote on Wed, 07 Nov 2007:
> Don Geddis schrieb:
>> Educating normal people about the spammer nature of the postings is the
>> current approach.
>
> I have seen you calling names ("amphibian"). That's not educational, that's
> just flamage
Not true. You've missed the context of the problem.
c.l.l eventually realized that the real motivation of the spammer was to get
long threads, where he could repeat his signature and advertising and name,
in some (vain? successful?) attempt to drive up further business to his
consultancy, at the cost of degrading the commons which is the c.l.l
newsgroup.
Those of us who use c.l.l to actually discuss Lisp, realized that even the
mere mention of his true name was believed by him to be sufficiently valuable
that it would cause more postings. So a deliberate attempt was made to stop
conjuring his presence by using his real name. Hence the euphemisms.
It's not a big step from there to choosing an ironic euphemism, in a play
on words on the name of his consulting company. "Amphibian" was not an
insult, but merely a token reminding anyone in the know of "frog", which
itself is part of the real name of the spammer (or at least his company).
Similarly, his preferred language has been given euphemistic names.
My favorite, from the ones I've seen, is "Irish ship of the desert".
Both are intended as jokes, as a way to refer to the spammer and his chosen
language without citing either by name. Neither is intended as an actual
meaningful insult.
Does that help clear it up for you?
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis http://don.geddis.org/ ···@geddis.org
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work. -- Thomas A. Edison
In comp.lang.functional Don Geddis <···@geddis.org> wrote:
[...]
> Does that help clear it up for you?
Yes it does! I've been wondering for some time about his motivation
for posting google stats repeatedly (on c.l.l). Indeed, your
explanation explains his behavior.
-Vesa Karvonen
Don Geddis wrote:
> Does that help clear it up for you?
No. I doesn't explain why you give him even more advertising by CC'ing
to c.l.f. Also the context and the rest of your and Ken's and others'
postings make it quite clear, that they weren't intended as "irony"
but as insult. Please keep you bad taste in c.l.l (where it probably
belongs, "because its about lisp").
-- M
From: Joachim Durchholz
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <fh016f$por$2@online.de>
Don Geddis schrieb:
> It's not a big step from there to choosing an ironic euphemism, in a play
> on words on the name of his consulting company. "Amphibian" was not an
> insult, but merely a token reminding anyone in the know of "frog", which
> itself is part of the real name of the spammer (or at least his company).
>
> [...]
>
> Both are intended as jokes, as a way to refer to the spammer and his chosen
> language without citing either by name. Neither is intended as an actual
> meaningful insult.
>
> Does that help clear it up for you?
Yes, it did.
I just didn't get the joke and categorized it as abuse. (Which was a bit
surprising to me since I hadn't read abuse from you before.)
Thanks for the clarification.
Regards,
Jo
Don Geddis <···@geddis.org> wrote:
> The issue is that the troll feeds on people taking him at face value, and
> posting followup after followup. So the hope is that widespread common
> knowledge about the nature of the troll would reduce the number of honest
> posters who get sucked into the threads.
yeah, that's worked out pretty well with xah lee.
----
Garry Hodgson, Senior Software Geek, AT&T CSO
nobody can do everything, but everybody can do something.
do something.
Garry Hodgson wrote:
> Don Geddis <···@geddis.org> wrote:
>
>
>>The issue is that the troll feeds on people taking him at face value, and
>>posting followup after followup. So the hope is that widespread common
>>knowledge about the nature of the troll would reduce the number of honest
>>posters who get sucked into the threads.
>
>
> yeah, that's worked out pretty well with xah lee.
horses. color. please note difference.
kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
'F DOT Bellheim AT gmail DOT com' wrote:
> On Nov 6, 11:31 am, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>> Ulf Wiger <·········@e-r-i-c-s-s-o-n.com> wrote on Tue, 06 Nov 2007:
>>
>> > If you want to say something about another person, you either say it with
>> > respect, or address that person directly.
>>
>> This approach was attempted numerous times to the amphibian in question,
>> all with absolutely no results. Not even acknowledgement.
>
> The question that comes to mind is the following: Has the "other"
> approach, i.e., the one you seem to be advocating here, yielded better
> results in the past? If not, perhaps being more civil would tend to
> have its own merits, independent of whether or not it "works" on JH.
>
> Just an outsider opinion...
Ah, thanks, the voice of sanity. Sometimes it takes a third party to
see the obvious.
Regards -- Markus
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Growth of the CAML family of languages
Date:
Message-ID: <qH9Yi.57$p17.3@newsfe08.lga>
Markus E L wrote:
> 'F DOT Bellheim AT gmail DOT com' wrote:
>
>
>>On Nov 6, 11:31 am, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Ulf Wiger <·········@e-r-i-c-s-s-o-n.com> wrote on Tue, 06 Nov 2007:
>>>
>>>
>>>>If you want to say something about another person, you either say it with
>>>>respect, or address that person directly.
>>>
>>>This approach was attempted numerous times to the amphibian in question,
>>>all with absolutely no results. Not even acknowledgement.
>>
>>The question that comes to mind is the following: Has the "other"
>>approach, i.e., the one you seem to be advocating here, yielded better
>>results in the past? If not, perhaps being more civil would tend to
>>have its own merits, independent of whether or not it "works" on JH.
>>
>>Just an outsider opinion...
>
>
> Ah, thanks, the voice of sanity. Sometimes it takes a third party to
> see the obvious.
Uh, the obvious to me is that we do not know yet. If Harrop never
despoils c.l.l again then my plan of sharing his deliberate asininity
with the one NG he treats with respect will have worked, but this will
be yielding better results in the future, not in the past. If OTOH he
fails to live up to the high opinion you and Ulf have of him and
continues to ignore the c.l.l's often courteously-phrased requests to
cease and desist his deliberate spamming then we will know my policy of
sharing that behavior with c.l.f has failed but again in the future. So
there is no past failure, this is something new, and if it fails you and
Ulf will know never to ask us again why we would want to be rid of him
because you too will want us to be rid of him so you can be rid of me.
You have met the enemy, and he is one of you.
hth, kzo
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius
Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> writes:
> So there is no past failure, this is something new, and if it
> fails you and Ulf will know never to ask us again why we would want to
> be rid of him because you too will want us to be rid of him so you can
> be rid of me.
But getting rid of you is easy, using a client side filter. Bye.
Ken Tilton wrote:
> Markus E L wrote:
>> 'F DOT Bellheim AT gmail DOT com' wrote:
>>
>>>On Nov 6, 11:31 am, Don Geddis <····@geddis.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ulf Wiger <·········@e-r-i-c-s-s-o-n.com> wrote on Tue, 06 Nov 2007:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If you want to say something about another person, you either say it with
>>>>>respect, or address that person directly.
>>>>
>>>>This approach was attempted numerous times to the amphibian in question,
>>>>all with absolutely no results. Not even acknowledgement.
>>>
>>>The question that comes to mind is the following: Has the "other"
>>>approach, i.e., the one you seem to be advocating here, yielded better
>>>results in the past? If not, perhaps being more civil would tend to
>>>have its own merits, independent of whether or not it "works" on JH.
>>>
>>>Just an outsider opinion...
>> Ah, thanks, the voice of sanity. Sometimes it takes a third party to
>> see the obvious.
>
> Uh, the obvious to me is that we do not know yet. If Harrop never
> despoils c.l.l again then my plan of sharing his deliberate asininity
> with the one NG he treats with respect will have worked, but this will
> be yielding better results in the future, not in the past. If OTOH he
> fails to live up to the high opinion you and Ulf have of him and
> continues to ignore the c.l.l's often courteously-phrased requests to
> cease and desist his deliberate spamming then we will know my policy
> of sharing that behavior with c.l.f has failed but again in the
> future. So there is no past failure, this is something new, and if it
> fails you and Ulf will know never to ask us again why we would want to
> be rid of him because you too will want us to be rid of him so you can
> be rid of me.
>
> You have met the enemy, and he is one of you.
The logic of hijackers and psychopaths. Why don't you just get on the
street and take a hostage? You would have gotten the same good
reasons.
How you're reasoning now convinces me that you're seriously
deranged. Let's hope your "partners in crime so far" see this and drop
you like the hot potato you are. On the other side this is usenet:
There seems to be no spleen for which one can't find some peers there.
- M
On Nov 2, 4:15 am, Jon Harrop <······@jdh30.plus.com> wrote:
> The recent productization of F# by Microsoft has caused a growth spurt in
> the CAML family of functional programming languages:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp%2Cocaml%2Cf%23
>
> Common Lisp is a good comparison because it is in slow but steady decline.
>
> --
> Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
lol, what a moron .. "I R Doctor", "I has knowledge" .. *yawn*, please
get lost