I was vague about my previous question. Some of that was deliberate
because I'm not exactly sure how to phrase the question I want to
ask. Now I have a couple of new questions.
What is a `hacker', or `programmer', or `computer scientist'?
I guess the first subquestion is, are these distinguished categories?
Can someone be a good hacker but a bad programmer (or vice versa)?
Did I miss a category or mislabel them?
The second subquestion is how can we objectively distinguish whether a
person belongs in the category? (Do you have to have poor personal
hygiene to be a hacker? Can you be a hacker even if you have a
degree?)
The third subquestion is what is the best category to be in? What do
you consider yourself? What do you aspire to be?
Joe Marshall <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> What is a `hacker'
That's easy. One who hacks.
> or `programmer'
One who programs.
> or `computer scientist'?
That one I can't help you with. Hopefully somebody else knows what that
is.
> I guess the first subquestion is, are these distinguished categories?
> Can someone be a good hacker but a bad programmer (or vice versa)?
Certainly. Hacking is any exploratory activity. It might not be
programming at all. Hacking in the programming context means doing
something new and unfamiliar. A hack is code where it's obvious you
didn't know what you were doing. A great hack is a clever new way of
doing something.
A good hacker might be good at finding great hacks, but might write
programs difficult for others to understand and thus be a bad
programmer. A good programmer might write very understandable,
maintainable programs, but not be particularly good at finding solutions
to unfamiliar problems and thus be a bad hacker.
> The second subquestion is how can we objectively distinguish whether a
> person belongs in the category? (Do you have to have poor personal
> hygiene to be a hacker? Can you be a hacker even if you have a
> degree?)
Glad you asked. You might or might not have a degree. You must have
poor personal hygiene. You must be male, between the ages of 11 and
58. If 45 or over you must have a beard. Your politics might be left
or right, but you must be far from center. I would go into acceptable
religions and ethnicities, but I'm running out of space in this post.
> The third subquestion is what is the best category to be in? What do
> you consider yourself? What do you aspire to be?
I aspire to be both a good hacker and a good programmer. I don't know
what a computer scientist is, but it sounds pretty cool so I guess I'd
like to be one of those too. I consider myself a C/Java programmer and
a Lisp/Scheme hacker.
In the last episode, on Wednesday 23 May 2007 21:01, Bruce Lewis wrote:
> Joe Marshall <··········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> What is a `hacker'
>
> That's easy. One who hacks.
>
>> or `programmer'
>
> One who programs.
>
>> or `computer scientist'?
>
> That one I can't help you with. Hopefully somebody else knows what that
> is.
>
>> I guess the first subquestion is, are these distinguished categories?
>> Can someone be a good hacker but a bad programmer (or vice versa)?
>
> Certainly. Hacking is any exploratory activity. It might not be
> programming at all. Hacking in the programming context means doing
> something new and unfamiliar. A hack is code where it's obvious you
> didn't know what you were doing. A great hack is a clever new way of
> doing something.
>
> A good hacker might be good at finding great hacks, but might write
> programs difficult for others to understand and thus be a bad
> programmer. A good programmer might write very understandable,
> maintainable programs, but not be particularly good at finding solutions
> to unfamiliar problems and thus be a bad hacker.
>
>> The second subquestion is how can we objectively distinguish whether a
>> person belongs in the category? (Do you have to have poor personal
>> hygiene to be a hacker? Can you be a hacker even if you have a
>> degree?)
>
> Glad you asked. You might or might not have a degree. You must have
> poor personal hygiene. You must be male, between the ages of 11 and
> 58. If 45 or over you must have a beard. Your politics might be left
> or right, but you must be far from center. I would go into acceptable
> religions and ethnicities, but I'm running out of space in this post.
>
Assuming for a minute you aren't being facetious, what do the last two
categories, or indeed, poor personal hygiene have to do with it (other than
the propensity to start flamewars)?
Jeff Rollin <··············@gmail.com> writes:
> In the last episode, on Wednesday 23 May 2007 21:01, Bruce Lewis wrote:
>
> > Joe Marshall <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> The second subquestion is how can we objectively distinguish whether a
> >> person belongs in the category? (Do you have to have poor personal
> >> hygiene to be a hacker? Can you be a hacker even if you have a
> >> degree?)
> >
> > Glad you asked. You might or might not have a degree. You must have
> > poor personal hygiene. You must be male, between the ages of 11 and
> > 58. If 45 or over you must have a beard. Your politics might be left
> > or right, but you must be far from center. I would go into acceptable
> > religions and ethnicities, but I'm running out of space in this post.
> >
>
> Assuming for a minute you aren't being facetious, what do the last two
> categories, or indeed, poor personal hygiene have to do with it (other than
> the propensity to start flamewars)?
I was giving a facetious answer to what I presume was a facetious
question. If I could think of a funny way to answer "What does personal
hygiene have to do with it?" then I would keep being facetious.
On May 25, 7:07 am, Bruce Lewis <·······@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was giving a facetious answer to what I presume was a facetious
> question. If I could think of a funny way to answer "What does personal
> hygiene have to do with it?" then I would keep being facetious.
It wasn't *supposed* to be facetious. I realized that I couldn't
quite understand a lot of the answers to my first question without
making assumptions about what people thought were programmers and
hackers. On one hand, someone might think of a hacker as a Greenblatt
or Gosper or Minsky, on the other hand, they might of a hacker as
subscriber to 2600, Kevin Mitnick type. A programmer could mean a
corporate cog like Dilbert or a pioneer like Vinton Cerf.
I just wanted to know where the labels went on the spectrum.
On May 25, 7:07 am, Bruce Lewis <·······@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was giving a facetious answer to what I presume was a facetious
> question. If I could think of a funny way to answer "What does personal
> hygiene have to do with it?" then I would keep being facetious.
It wasn't *supposed* to be facetious. I realized that I couldn't
quite understand a lot of the answers to my first question without
making assumptions about what people thought were programmers and
hackers. On one hand, someone might think of a hacker as a Greenblatt
or Gosper or Minsky, on the other hand, they might of a hacker as
subscriber to 2600, Kevin Mitnick type. A programmer could mean a
corporate cog like Dilbert or a pioneer like Vinton Cerf.
I just wanted to know where the labels went on the spectrum.
In article <························@u36g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Joe Marshall <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was vague about my previous question. Some of that was deliberate
> because I'm not exactly sure how to phrase the question I want to
> ask. Now I have a couple of new questions.
>
> What is a `hacker', or `programmer', or `computer scientist'?
I would think of following descriptions:
* a hacker combines hobby and job and has a deep interest
in software development. The hacker's dictionary
has a longer description. ;-)
* a programmer has a job to program software.
* a computer scientist is involved in research and development.
There are many more roles in software development. Several
have something to do with programming. Here is a project
centric view from the 'Unified Process':
* Analyst
** Business Designer
** Business-Model Reviewer
** Business-Process Analyst
** Requirements Reviewer
** System Analyst
** Requirements Specifier
** User-Interface Designer
* Developer
** Software Architect
** Architecture Reviewer
** Capsule Designer
** Code Reviewer
** Database Designer
** Design Reviewer
** Designer
** Implementer
** Integrator
* Tester
** Test Designer
** Tester
* Manager
** Change Control Manager
** Configuration Manager
** Deployment Manager
** Process Engineer
** Project Manager
** Project Reviewer
* Other
** Stakeholder
** Any Role
** Course Developer
** Graphic Artist
** System Administrator
** Technical Writer
** Tool Specialist
In a project not all roles maybe needed and persons
can be acting in more than one role.
> I guess the first subquestion is, are these distinguished categories?
> Can someone be a good hacker but a bad programmer (or vice versa)?
Yes.
> Did I miss a category or mislabel them?
>
> The second subquestion is how can we objectively distinguish whether a
> person belongs in the category? (Do you have to have poor personal
> hygiene to be a hacker? Can you be a hacker even if you have a
> degree?)
Everybody can be a hacker. He/she just needs to write cool
software and enjoy it.
> The third subquestion is what is the best category to be in? What do
> you consider yourself? What do you aspire to be?
--
http://lispm.dyndns.org
[This is just a throw at it...]
Joe Marshall wrote:
> I was vague about my previous question. Some of that was deliberate
> because I'm not exactly sure how to phrase the question I want to
> ask. Now I have a couple of new questions.
>
> What is a `hacker', or `programmer', or `computer scientist'?
>
> I guess the first subquestion is, are these distinguished categories?
> Can someone be a good hacker but a bad programmer (or vice versa)?
> Did I miss a category or mislabel them?
I don't know whether you missed a category or not. I think people can be
in all of these categories, but they can also be in just one of them.
> The second subquestion is how can we objectively distinguish whether a
> person belongs in the category? (Do you have to have poor personal
> hygiene to be a hacker? Can you be a hacker even if you have a
> degree?)
I think a hacker focuses an short-term solutions (getting things to
work, no matter how). A programmer focuses on long-term solutions
(ensuring that a program has a design that makes it understandable and
maintainable in the long run, and uses a principled approach, at least
to a certain degree).
I find Peter Naur's notion of Programming as Theory Building very
convincing - see http://www.zafar.se/bkz/Articles/NaurProgrammingTheory
- in these terms, a hacker doesn't have a theory of the program at hand
(or maybe does, but doesn't "act" according to that theory), while a
programmer does.
A computer scientist doesn't program. [1] Like all scientists, a
computer scientist explains. So computer scientists develop theories
_about_ programs and programming (and hacking!) at several levels. In
some cases, it's good that a computer scientist knows how to program,
but depending on the specific subject, that's not a strict requirement. [2]
> The third subquestion is what is the best category to be in? What do
> you consider yourself? What do you aspire to be?
My interest is in programming language concepts and implementations. I
regard it as important to know how to program (and hack!) so that I have
some sense of what I am talking about.
Pascal
[1] But remember that a person can be in all categories.
[2] Consider, for example, research on human-computer interaction, which
is a discipline in computer science but doesn't necessarily involve
programming.
--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
>>>>> "PC" == Pascal Costanza <··@p-cos.net> writes:
PC> I think a hacker focuses an short-term solutions (getting
PC> things to work, no matter how). A programmer focuses on
PC> long-term solutions (ensuring that a program has a design that
PC> makes it understandable and maintainable in the long run, and
PC> uses a principled approach, at least to a certain degree).
PC> A computer scientist doesn't program. [1] Like all scientists,
PC> a computer scientist explains. So computer scientists develop
PC> theories _about_ programs and programming (and hacking!) at
PC> several levels. In some cases, it's good that a computer
PC> scientist knows how to program, but depending on the specific
PC> subject, that's not a strict requirement. [2]
I think these are mostly accurate, but with the caveat that some
people (like Paul Graham) use "hacker" to mean "brilliant programmer."
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
·······@chromatico.net
On May 23, 2:57 pm, Joe Marshall <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was vague about my previous question. Some of that was deliberate
> because I'm not exactly sure how to phrase the question I want to
> ask. Now I have a couple of new questions.
>
> What is a `hacker', or `programmer', or `computer scientist'?
>
Have a look at this portrait of J. Random Hacker:
http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/portrait_of_j_random_hacker.html
agt
Joe Marshall continued his quest for troll status with:
> I was vague about my previous question. Some of that was deliberate
> because I'm not exactly sure how to phrase the question I want to
> ask. Now I have a couple of new questions.
>
> What is a `hacker', or `programmer', or `computer scientist'?
The last two were dragged to their death in the last thread. Hacker is a
term used by us computer geeks in a desperate attempt to glamorize our
bit-ridden asses, as if the best of us will ever get laid as often as
the tone-deaf, rhythym-blind bassist of a third rate cover band on Long
Island, let alone the rock stars we pose as when we call ourselves
hackers. Paul Graham, who I generally greatly admire and hope will
because I said that fund my start-up but more lavishly than he does
those Y-Combinator conscripts, drove a stake through the heart of the
term here: http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html
>
> I guess the first subquestion is, are these distinguished categories?
> Can someone be a good hacker but a bad programmer (or vice versa)?
> Did I miss a category or mislabel them?
>
> The second subquestion is how can we objectively distinguish whether a
> person belongs in the category? (Do you have to have poor personal
> hygiene to be a hacker? Can you be a hacker even if you have a
> degree?)
>
> The third subquestion is what is the best category to be in? What do
> you consider yourself? What do you aspire to be?
>
I actually had a business card that just said "Programmer". Got everyone
quite upset, they wanted "Systems Analyst" or "Software Engineer" or
"Database Administrator" or something. My point was that one cannot
program a computer effectively without doing all those things, so
"Programmer" was sufficient.
Now can we get back to name-calling? Stop trying to civilize this brawl.
kenny
On May 26, 6:16 pm, Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
> Now can we get back to name-calling?
> Stop trying to civilize this brawl.
Sorry. I'm not being a proper savage, am I?