I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results are
poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few are in LAMP boat.
Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the modern world. What should I
do ? None of them is interested in lisp, they either never heard
about lisp or think that it's only for AI. I showed them my programs
and revit movies and they reply that's cool but only good for
prototypes. In order to make real apps you need .net/php. Anybody had
more luck? And how you've done it?
On May 21, 2:30 pm, jt <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results are
> poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few are in LAMP boat.
> Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the modern world. What should I
> do ? I agree with most of the people here, though I might be slightly less abrupt about it ;-)
FWIW, Lisp is the first language I'm coming to and learning seriously,
mostly because it's so high-level. But (a) I'm going to have more
trouble with it than someone who can already program in Perl/Python/
your-favourite-programming-language, because I'm having to learn maths
alongside; and (b) I'm doing it as a hobby, so I don't need to
concentrate on what will get me a job.
None of them is interested in lisp, they either never heard
> about lisp or think that it's only for AI. I showed them my programs
> and revit movies and they reply that's cool but only good for
> prototypes. In order to make real apps you need .net/php.
Interesting perspective, since .Net is only about four years old or
something. I didn't know we were all using fake apps before then.
Jeff
>>>>> "jt" == jt <·············@gmail.com> writes:
jt> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but
jt> results are poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few
jt> are in LAMP boat. Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the
jt> modern world. What should I do ?
Leave them alone. There's a lot of stable money in doing things in
.NET and LAMP; and there are situations in which ignorance is bliss.
Suppose you get one to use Lisp regularly. Best-case scenario, he's
working in a progressive LAMP shop where he can write Lispish code in
Perl or Python. Worst-case scenario, he's working for an idiot in a
conservative LAMP shop where he's writing glorified database queries
in PHP, and he'll find himself reflecting for the hundredth time that
this particular project would have been done two weeks ago if it
weren't hamstrung by broken languages and know-nothing management.
Whoops, am I projecting? Good thing Friday is payday.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
·······@chromatico.net
On 2007-05-21, jt <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results
> are poor.
[ snip ]
> Anybody had more luck? And how you've done it?
I interested a co-worker in Practical Common Lisp once. I don't think
he's gone on to using Lisp much in practice, though.
I did not approach him with the intention of preaching Lisp. We
worked on the same project, and both liked Linux and Vim, and we
struck up a friendship that way. I think I forwarded him a link to
the PCL web page and said "This is neat!", and he agreed, and that
pretty much ended it, as far as proselytizing went.
I think the trick is, get people to respect your judgement as a
programmer first, and then they *might* take an interest in Lisp. If
they don't respect your judgement to begin with, then they just mutter
"Wow, you drank the Kool-Aid" at you and ignore you from then on.
In the end, I think, you can only convince doubters with cool
applications (which is really just one of many roads to building their
respect of your mad programmer skillz), and even that probably won't
do it. "I can do the same thing in [whatever]," they'll say.
As Kent remarked recently, CL excels at large projects. My friend and
I had worked on several of them, and knew that the benefits of loading
patches at runtime without stopping the application were not small,
etc etc. If none of your friends have worked on large projects, then
it will take them a lot of effort to see the benefits of Lisp.
Good luck, though.
-- L
From: Zach Beane
Subject: Re: Did you manage to interest somebody to learn lisp? Ever.
Date:
Message-ID: <m3abvy5i1s.fsf@unnamed.xach.com>
Larry Clapp <·····@theclapp.org> writes:
> I think the trick is, get people to respect your judgement as a
> programmer first, and then they *might* take an interest in Lisp. If
> they don't respect your judgement to begin with, then they just mutter
> "Wow, you drank the Kool-Aid" at you and ignore you from then on.
I've noticed this a lot. For some reason, in the progress of many
language enthusiasts (not just Lisp), "competence" does not come
before "rabid evangelizing".
"Rabid evanglizing" also doesn't seem to come *after* "competence",
either, hmm...
I've seen more than a few people ask things like "Hey, can you give me
a cool macro to show my friend? I need to show him how much better
LISP is than C++!" If you can't produce something like that yourself,
are you really the best person to convince anyone anything about the
language?
Zach
On May 21, 4:10 pm, Zach Beane <····@xach.com> wrote:
> Larry Clapp <····@theclapp.org> writes:
> > I think the trick is, get people to respect your judgement as a
> > programmer first, and then they *might* take an interest in Lisp. If
> > they don't respect your judgement to begin with, then they just mutter
> > "Wow, you drank the Kool-Aid" at you and ignore you from then on.
>
> I've noticed this a lot. For some reason, in the progress of many
> language enthusiasts (not just Lisp), "competence" does not come
> before "rabid evangelizing".
>
> "Rabid evanglizing" also doesn't seem to come *after* "competence",
> either, hmm...
>
> I've seen more than a few people ask things like "Hey, can you give me
> a cool macro to show my friend? I need to show him how much better
> LISP is than C++!" If you can't produce something like that yourself,
> are you really the best person to convince anyone anything about the
> language?
>
> Zach
Good anti-evangelism post.
In defence of evangelists, I think a lot of them get that way because
of all the opposition ("unevangelism"?) they encounter. Think about
Linux and *BSD: Rabid Linux users are probably a much smaller section
of the community now than they were five years ago. Linux was also a
lot less credible (in the eyes of those outside the community) five
years ago than it is now. Not saying it's good; not saying it's an
excuse. Just saying I think that's why it happens.
(OTOH, w/o the rabid users banging on about it in the early days,
would it have gotten this far?)
Jeff
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Did you manage to interest somebody to learn lisp? Ever.
Date:
Message-ID: <jPk4i.340$8x.330@newsfe12.lga>
twenex wrote:
> On May 21, 4:10 pm, Zach Beane <····@xach.com> wrote:
>
>>Larry Clapp <····@theclapp.org> writes:
>>
>>>I think the trick is, get people to respect your judgement as a
>>>programmer first, and then they *might* take an interest in Lisp. If
>>>they don't respect your judgement to begin with, then they just mutter
>>>"Wow, you drank the Kool-Aid" at you and ignore you from then on.
>>
>>I've noticed this a lot. For some reason, in the progress of many
>>language enthusiasts (not just Lisp), "competence" does not come
>>before "rabid evangelizing".
>>
>>"Rabid evanglizing" also doesn't seem to come *after* "competence",
>>either, hmm...
>>
>>I've seen more than a few people ask things like "Hey, can you give me
>>a cool macro to show my friend? I need to show him how much better
>>LISP is than C++!" If you can't produce something like that yourself,
>>are you really the best person to convince anyone anything about the
>>language?
>>
>>Zach
>
>
> Good anti-evangelism post.
I was thinking "completely wrong". Neat stuff does not need a wizard to
make it look good. Lisp is indeed neat, and any bumbling noob knows they
have fun starting day one. Oh, OK, I am also correcting the idiocy that
the only thing neat about Lisp is macros. I was thinking "everything".
Meanwhile, to the OP, thou understandeth nothing of marketing. All that
matters is impressions. You are providing impressions. Keep up the good
work. Do not expect a sale in one try. Different products have different
sales cycles. The nice lady on the subway wants to sell me those
batteries /now/. Adopting a computer language is a longer sales cycle,
requiring months or years of impressions. Interesting exception was the
Ruby on Rails tsunami, not sure what was up with that. Killer app? Those
rock for marketing.
Actually, if you download Cells... oh, what's the point? (Impressions!)
kenny
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: Did you manage to interest somebody to learn lisp? Ever.
Date:
Message-ID: <5be6euF2s0iodU1@mid.individual.net>
Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
> twenex wrote:
>> On May 21, 4:10 pm, Zach Beane <····@xach.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Clapp <····@theclapp.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> I think the trick is, get people to respect your judgement as a
>>>> programmer first, and then they *might* take an interest in Lisp. If
>>>> they don't respect your judgement to begin with, then they just mutter
>>>> "Wow, you drank the Kool-Aid" at you and ignore you from then on.
>>>
>>> I've noticed this a lot. For some reason, in the progress of many
>>> language enthusiasts (not just Lisp), "competence" does not come
>>> before "rabid evangelizing".
>>>
>>> "Rabid evanglizing" also doesn't seem to come *after* "competence",
>>> either, hmm...
>>>
>>> I've seen more than a few people ask things like "Hey, can you give me
>>> a cool macro to show my friend? I need to show him how much better
>>> LISP is than C++!" If you can't produce something like that yourself,
>>> are you really the best person to convince anyone anything about the
>>> language?
>>>
>>> Zach
>>
>>
>> Good anti-evangelism post.
>
> I was thinking "completely wrong". Neat stuff does not need a wizard to
> make it look good. Lisp is indeed neat, and any bumbling noob knows they
> have fun starting day one. Oh, OK, I am also correcting the idiocy that
> the only thing neat about Lisp is macros. I was thinking "everything".
>
> Meanwhile, to the OP, thou understandeth nothing of marketing. All that
> matters is impressions. You are providing impressions. Keep up the good
> work. Do not expect a sale in one try. Different products have different
> sales cycles. The nice lady on the subway wants to sell me those
> batteries /now/. Adopting a computer language is a longer sales cycle,
> requiring months or years of impressions. Interesting exception was the
> Ruby on Rails tsunami, not sure what was up with that. Killer app? Those
> rock for marketing.
Ken is right. And to add to this: Some people only start to take a
closer serious look at something when they have heard _several_ people
mention that it's good, preferably from different sources.
So the next time they see Lisp mentioned, for example, in some article
on some website, they might remember "hey, isn't that the language that
my colleague recently talked about?"
These things add up.
Pascal
--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Did you manage to interest somebody to learn lisp? Ever.
Date:
Message-ID: <Epk4i.16$8p5.13@newsfe12.lga>
jt wrote:
> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results are
> poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few are in LAMP boat.
> Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the modern world. What should I
> do ? None of them is interested in lisp, they either never heard
> about lisp or think that it's only for AI. I showed them my programs
> and revit movies and they reply that's cool but only good for
> prototypes. In order to make real apps you need .net/php. Anybody had
> more luck? And how you've done it?
>
Can't help, but if you figure it out lemme know and I'll try again to
get these idiots to use Cells.
tia,kenny
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"Algebra is the metaphysics of arithmetic." - John Ray
"As long as algebra is taught in school,
there will be prayer in school." - Cokie Roberts
"Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra."
- Fran Lebowitz
"I'm an algebra liar. I figure two good lies make a positive."
- Tim Allen
On May 21, 7:10 pm, Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
> jt wrote:
> Can't help, but if you figure it out lemme know and I'll try again to
> get these idiots to use Cells.
>
> tia,kenny
> --http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
I figured out what's wrong with Cells, it's made for lispers. Lispers
use the most powerfull language in the world and they could prolong
using OO for a long time if we want to. If you could port cells to
Java or C# you'll get big bucks.
jt <·············@gmail.com> writes:
> What should I do ?
Leave them alone. No-one likes the smart-ass who is constantly
bickering. Seriously. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" might be
okay for religions, for programming languages it is just annoying.
Thomas
On May 21, 3:37 pm, Thomas Hühn <··········@thomas-huehn.de> wrote:
> jt <·············@gmail.com> writes:
> > What should I do ?
>
> Leave them alone. No-one likes the smart-ass who is constantly
> bickering. Seriously. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" might be
> okay for religions, for programming languages it is just annoying.
>
> Thomas
Yes two. But I don't preach lisp anymore. If they're interested
they'll find it themselves.
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: Did you manage to interest somebody to learn lisp? Ever.
Date:
Message-ID: <op.tsotlezcpqzri1@pandora.upc.no>
On Mon, 21 May 2007 15:30:51 +0200, jt <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results are
> poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few are in LAMP boat.
> Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the modern world. What should I
> do ? None of them is interested in lisp, they either never heard
> about lisp or think that it's only for AI. I showed them my programs
> and revit movies and they reply that's cool but only good for
> prototypes. In order to make real apps you need .net/php. Anybody had
> more luck? And how you've done it?
>
I'd say. It's like women. Just act uninterested and let them come to you.
If you try to hard you just seem desperate.
So just code your Lisp and let them wonder what you are doing.
Now they think you have got some secret trick and try to find out what it
is.
;)
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
(message (Hello 'jt)
(you :wrote :on '(21 May 2007 06:30:51 -0700))
(
j> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results are
j> poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few are in LAMP boat.
j> Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the modern world. What should I
j> do ? None of them is interested in lisp, they either never heard
j> about lisp or think that it's only for AI.
it depends if they are interested in programming at all. do they read
articles at least about that .net or python or php?
if they do, it's theoretically possible to bring them to learn lisp. i think
you can forward them articles about lisp (especially if it's comparison of,
say, lisp and .net), and when they say that something sucks in php, tell
them that in lisp it's much better :). so maybe they will get curious and
learn lisp.
if they do not read articles even about C# and PHP, i think there's no way
they can learn lisp and no reason for this, they are not interested in
programming..
j> but only good for prototypes. In order to make real apps you need
j> .net/php. Anybody had more luck? And how you've done it?
one of my friends was C++ and Python programmer, and then he've learned
Scheme and Common Lisp, and even teached Scheme to others :). although he is
well-educated person, and would learn new languages anyway, but possibly
i've influenced his decision -- maybe he'd learn Haskell or OCaml instead of
Lisp :).
if you want to deal with less curious programmers anyway, you can show them
Python and Ruby first. these languages are much more close to lisp, and Ruby
is getting popular now, so it's assumed to be cool.
when they'll dig enough Python/Ruby, you can show them Lisp as a 'better
Python/Ruby with alternative syntax' :)
)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
"I am everything you want and I am everything you need")
On May 21, 3:30 pm, jt <·············@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results are
> poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few are in LAMP boat.
> Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the modern world. What should I
> do ? None of them is interested in lisp, they either never heard
> about lisp or think that it's only for AI. I showed them my programs
> and revit movies and they reply that's cool but only good for
> prototypes. In order to make real apps you need .net/php. Anybody had
> more luck? And how you've done it?
Like other posters already said , people must have a high opinion of
you as a programmer. Then show them something cool, like changing code
while your server is running (Erann Gatt example with debugging Deep
Space code http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html is quite
impressive). You could show power of CLOS but I don't use it much
though a few good examples of generic functions might look good.Muproc
might be interesthing too , Lisp is not Erlang but hundreds processes
will probably look cool for those who never heard of Erlang /Termite.
And the best idea is learn more Lisp for yourself the better apps you
made the better chance is to intrigue them that you have some kind of
secret weapons .One more tip for competitive products don't show your
prototypes early people will try to steal your knwoledge (felt this on
my skin with odbc) , show your power when your app is already
midsized, lisp strength is RAD if you show them how app architecture
should look like, which is as a product of your experimentation they
will recode it in c#/php .Make them sweat and make their wrong
waterfall assumptions.
> But I don't preach lisp anymore.
Above is obviously a lie, a colleague just called me a lisp preacher .
PS.
But don't be a smug lisp weenie http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?SmugLispWeenie
that will lead your nowhere , preach only when they are interested in
listening.
On May 22, 8:55 am, fireblade <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
> Like other posters already said , people must have a high opinion of
> you as a programmer. Then show them something cool, like changing code
> while your server is running (Erann Gatt example with debugging Deep
> Space codehttp://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.htmlis quite
> impressive).
The one time I successfully got a colleague to consider Lisp was by
showing him the debugger-fix-and-continue feature (Allegro for
Windows, as I recall). At the time (1997), Java debuggers were
godawful by comparison.
jt wrote:
> I'm trying to bring some of my friends to learn lisp, but results are
> poor. Most of them are doing .net(VB & C#), few are in LAMP boat.
> Nobody believes that lisp belongs in the modern world. What should I
> do ? None of them is interested in lisp, they either never heard
> about lisp or think that it's only for AI. I showed them my programs
> and revit movies and they reply that's cool but only good for
> prototypes. In order to make real apps you need .net/php. Anybody had
> more luck? And how you've done it?
Try to get them to use Emacs, if they aren't already. (I started doing
C and C++ and learned Emacs lisp to make editing easier. Emacs was the
only editor which could be made to do what I wanted. Then I found that
what I could do clumsily with C macros, if at all, is done easily in
Lisp. My own sense of elegance made me tend to ``build the language up
to the application'', and when I learned Lisp I found that this was
really possible to do, and well. In reading about Emacs lisp, I found
Scheme and CL, and so on.) Of course, be ready for them to say
``That's real neat, but only good for editor scripting; for real apps
you need inferior-language-X.''
Or you can be Epictetian, and be content with your own goodness.
Tim S
On May 22, 7:37 am, Numeromancer <·······@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Or you can be Epictetian, and be content with your own goodness.
Or Biercian and revel in watching other people use the language of
their choice.
Joe Marshall wrote:
> On May 22, 7:37 am, Numeromancer <·······@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Or you can be Epictetian, and be content with your own goodness.
>
> Or Biercian and revel in watching other people use the language of
> their choice.
Ambrose?
Absurdity. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own
opinion.
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that
you do not entertain.
Happiness: an agreeable sensation arising from contemplating the misery
of another.
Etc.
The teachings of Epict. have a theme to unite them; the quotes of A.
Bierce have only bad attitude.
Tim S
On May 22, 12:48 pm, Numeromancer <·······@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The teachings of Epict. have a theme to unite them; the quotes of A.
> Bierce have only bad attitude.
And that's not a theme?
I like the Stoics, but they don't strike me as people to party with.
The misanthropes and curmudgeons make me laugh. Imagine going
drinking with Swift, Twain, and Bierce. I just can't picture that
with Aurelius, Epictetus, and Seneca.
On 23 May 2007 11:33:22 -0700, <··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 22, 12:48 pm, Numeromancer <·······@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> The teachings of Epict. have a theme to unite them; the quotes of A.
>> Bierce have only bad attitude.
>
> And that's not a theme?
>
> I like the Stoics, but they don't strike me as people to party with.
> The misanthropes and curmudgeons make me laugh. Imagine going
> drinking with Swift, Twain, and Bierce. I just can't picture that
> with Aurelius, Epictetus, and Seneca.
Well, you know what they say, old folkes just don't know how to party.
--
There are no average Common Lisp programmers
Reply-To: email is ignored.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
> Well, you know what they say, old folkes just don't know how to party.
>
Just like every adolescent has invented sex.
Cor
--
(defvar MyComputer '((OS . "GNU/Emacs") (IPL . "GNU/Linux")))
The biggest problem LISP has, is that it does not appeal to dumb people
If that fails to satisfy you, start reading the HyperSpec or woman frig
mailpolicy @ http://www.clsnet.nl/mail.php
Joe Marshall wrote:
> On May 22, 12:48 pm, Numeromancer <·······@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> The teachings of Epict. have a theme to unite them; the quotes of A.
>> Bierce have only bad attitude.
>
> And that's not a theme?
No.
>
> I like the Stoics, but they don't strike me as people to party with.
> The misanthropes and curmudgeons make me laugh. Imagine going
> drinking with Swift, Twain, and Bierce. I just can't picture that
> with Aurelius, Epictetus, and Seneca.
I enjoy them, too; Schadenfreude is freude, after all. But misanthropes
are mis-anthropes, and when the party's over, and the other -anthropes
have gone, they have only their mis- to brood upon.
Tim S
In the last episode, on Friday 25 May 2007 15:37, Numeromancer wrote:
> Joe Marshall wrote:
>> On May 22, 12:48 pm, Numeromancer <·······@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The teachings of Epict. have a theme to unite them; the quotes of A.
>>> Bierce have only bad attitude.
>>
>> And that's not a theme?
>
> No.
>
>>
>> I like the Stoics, but they don't strike me as people to party with.
>> The misanthropes and curmudgeons make me laugh. Imagine going
>> drinking with Swift, Twain, and Bierce. I just can't picture that
>> with Aurelius, Epictetus, and Seneca.
>
> I enjoy them, too; Schadenfreude is freude, after all. But misanthropes
> are mis-anthropes, and when the party's over, and the other -anthropes
> have gone, they have only their mis- to brood upon.
>
What would misanthropes be doing at a party, with or without an interposed
hyphen?
Jeff
On May 25, 8:00 am, Jeff Rollin <··············@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the last episode, on Friday 25 May 2007 15:37, Numeromancer wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Joe Marshall wrote:
> >> On May 22, 12:48 pm, Numeromancer <·······@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >>> The teachings of Epict. have a theme to unite them; the quotes of A.
> >>> Bierce have only bad attitude.
>
> >> And that's not a theme?
>
> > No.
>
> >> I like the Stoics, but they don't strike me as people to party with.
> >> The misanthropes and curmudgeons make me laugh. Imagine going
> >> drinking with Swift, Twain, and Bierce. I just can't picture that
> >> with Aurelius, Epictetus, and Seneca.
>
> > I enjoy them, too; Schadenfreude is freude, after all. But misanthropes
> > are mis-anthropes, and when the party's over, and the other -anthropes
> > have gone, they have only their mis- to brood upon.
>
> What would misanthropes be doing at a party, with or without an interposed
> hyphen?
Watching the Karaoke, of course.