Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
Crash and Burn your Java project http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: Book recommendation : Software Craftsmanship: The New Imperative
Date:
Message-ID: <f7immt$82q$1@aioe.org>
Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
> Crash and Burn your Java project http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>
I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows at
least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
just my .019999....
--
Cesar Rabak
Cesar Rabak wrote:
> Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
>
>> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
>> Crash and Burn your Java project
>> http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
>> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
>> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>>
> I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>
> The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
> can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>
> There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows at
> least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
It's a lot easier to find people who think they know how to program
in Java than it is to find people who think they know how to program
in Lisp.
-- JK
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: Book recommendation : Software Craftsmanship: The New Imperative
Date:
Message-ID: <f7jd5a$2dc$1@aioe.org>
JK escreveu:
> Cesar Rabak wrote:
>
>> Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
>>
>>> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
>>> Crash and Burn your Java project
>>> http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
>>> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
>>> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>>>
>> I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>>
>> The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
>> can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>>
>> There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows
>> at least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
>
> It's a lot easier to find people who think they know how to program
> in Java than it is to find people who think they know how to program
> in Lisp.
>
Sorry, but except if you care to start another thread, this is non
sequitur. . .
Regards,
--
Cesar Rabak
Cesar Rabak wrote:
> JK escreveu:
>
>> Cesar Rabak wrote:
>>
>>> Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
>>>
>>>> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
>>>> Crash and Burn your Java project
>>>> http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
>>>> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
>>>> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>>>>
>>> I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>>>
>>> The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
>>> can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>>>
>>> There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows
>>> at least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
>>
>>
>> It's a lot easier to find people who think they know how to program
>> in Java than it is to find people who think they know how to program
>> in Lisp.
>>
> Sorry, but except if you care to start another thread, this is non
> sequitur. . .
It was intended as a joke.
Humor-killing explanation:
The advice given relies on being able to hire a large number
of incompetent programmers. That's easy to do when you're looking
for Java programmers, not so easy when you're looking for Lisp
programmers. (I expect so, anyway, but I've never tried to hire
a bunch of Lisp programmers, so maybe I'm wrong.) Judging from
traffic on c.l.lisp vs c.l.java.<anything>, most Lisp programmers
are much more clueful than most Java programmers -- that is,
they exhibit a more reflective approach to their craft, and
seem more aware of the extent and limits of their own knowledge
of the language. So finding someone who *thinks* she's a competent
Lisp programmer (but is incorrect) is likely to be very much more
difficult than finding someone who *thinks* he's a competent
Java programmer -- one can hardly swing a cat without hitting
someone who's "learned Java" from a book with a calendar interval
in its title, for example.
-- JK, elitist
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: Book recommendation : Software Craftsmanship: The New Imperative
Date:
Message-ID: <f7jkoa$qps$1@aioe.org>
JK escreveu:
> Cesar Rabak wrote:
[snipped]
>>>
>>> It's a lot easier to find people who think they know how to program
>>> in Java than it is to find people who think they know how to program
>>> in Lisp.
>>>
>> Sorry, but except if you care to start another thread, this is non
>> sequitur. . .
>
> It was intended as a joke.
I see, sorry I'm afraid I was over reactive ;-)
>
> Humor-killing explanation:
>
> The advice given relies on being able to hire a large number
> of incompetent programmers. That's easy to do when you're looking
> for Java programmers, not so easy when you're looking for Lisp
> programmers. (I expect so, anyway, but I've never tried to hire
> a bunch of Lisp programmers, so maybe I'm wrong.)
OK, I second part of it: the issue is with the demand versus offer
phenomenon.
_If_ Lisp were the 'du jour' language, a lot of unscrupulous
"entrepreneurs" would mushroom with all promises from "Learn Lisp in 24
minutes" to "Advanced Lisp Certified Professional" with all in between.
So, in part, the non easy part comes from a non easy of getting lisp
programmers in the first place (especially for the wages offered, after
of all, we've more pride, right? ;-)
> Judging from
> traffic on c.l.lisp vs c.l.java.<anything>, most Lisp programmers
> are much more clueful than most Java programmers -- that is,
> they exhibit a more reflective approach to their craft, and
> seem more aware of the extent and limits of their own knowledge
> of the language.
Again, IMHO because the ones that keep programming in Lisp after having
a semester in some AI course are the ones which identified themselves
with the language and kept learning.
> So finding someone who *thinks* she's a competent
> Lisp programmer (but is incorrect) is likely to be very much more
> difficult than finding someone who *thinks* he's a competent
> Java programmer -- one can hardly swing a cat without hitting
> someone who's "learned Java" from a book with a calendar interval
> in its title, for example.
Contrast this with some "rush in" hiring for (bignum) of Java (or
whatever language) that almost points the guys to do exactly that...
>
> -- JK, elitist
I see!
Regards,
--
Cesar Rabak
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: Book recommendation : Software Craftsmanship: The New Imperative
Date:
Message-ID: <f7m7d5$r91$1@aioe.org>
Matthias Buelow escreveu:
> Cesar Rabak wrote:
>
>> Again, IMHO because the ones that keep programming in Lisp after having
>> a semester in some AI course are the ones which identified themselves
>> with the language and kept learning.
>
> I'd say, chosing to learn Lisp is currently not exaggeratingly motivated
> by career deliberations... to put it mildly... so you have the
> enthusiasts here, which can also be found for other languages, of
> course, but in the Lisp case they're _very visible_.
Yes. Thanks for rephrasing more explictly!
On Jul 17, 6:20 pm, JK <·········@kneuro.net> wrote:
> Cesar Rabak wrote:
> > Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
>
> >> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
> >> Crash and Burn your Java project
> >>http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
> >> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
> >> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>
> > I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>
> > The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
> > can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>
> > There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows at
> > least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
>
> It's a lot easier to find people who think they know how to program
> in Java than it is to find people who think they know how to program
> in Lisp.
>
It's hard to find people who even know what lisp is.
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: Book recommendation : Software Craftsmanship: The New Imperative
Date:
Message-ID: <f80tk1$i77$1@aioe.org>
Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
> On Jul 17, 6:20 pm, JK <·········@kneuro.net> wrote:
>> Cesar Rabak wrote:
>>> Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
>>>> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
>>>> Crash and Burn your Java project
>>>> http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
>>>> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
>>>> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>>> I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>>> The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
>>> can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>>> There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows at
>>> least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
>> It's a lot easier to find people who think they know how to program
>> in Java than it is to find people who think they know how to program
>> in Lisp.
>>
> It's hard to find people who even know what lisp is.
>
I think the situation is bit harder: people who /think/ they know about
Lisp, more often than not had a perfunctory exposition in an
introductory AI course which mixed a lot of stuff and one of the drills
in this language was to do some 'manipulation with lists', and before
they graduated they heard about the "AI winter" and the demise of Lisp.
OTOH, lets see about the average manager who now has to decide on those
'langue du jour' against the 'esoteric language': when he was an intern
or junior engineer he saw an attempt to employ Lisp in a PC XT or
perhaps an AT (muLisp, IIRC Texas Instruments in the late 80s) which had
a performance not acceptable, no matter how easy or fast or less error
prone the technology was.
These persons migrated to management and right now have only that
mindset to reason about "mainstream" versus "legacy".
--
Cesar Rabak
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: Book recommendation : Software Craftsmanship: The New Imperative
Date:
Message-ID: <f81697$78t$1@aioe.org>
Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
> On Jul 17, 6:20 pm, JK <·········@kneuro.net> wrote:
>> Cesar Rabak wrote:
>>> Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
>>>> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
>>>> Crash and Burn your Java project
>>>> http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
>>>> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
>>>> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>>> I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>>> The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
>>> can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>>> There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows at
>>> least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
>> It's a lot easier to find people who think they know how to program
>> in Java than it is to find people who think they know how to program
>> in Lisp.
>>
> It's hard to find people who even know what lisp is.
>
I think the situation is bit harder: people who /think/ they know about
Lisp, more often than not had a perfunctory exposition in an
introductory AI course which mixed a lot of stuff and one of the drills
in this language was to do some 'manipulation with lists', and before
they graduated they heard about the "AI winter" and the demise of Lisp.
OTOH, lets see about the average manager who now has to decide on those
'langue du jour' against the 'esoteric language': when he was an intern
or junior engineer he saw an attempt to employ Lisp in a PC XT or
perhaps an AT (muLisp, IIRC Texas Instruments in the late 80s) which had
a performance not acceptable, no matter how easy or fast or less error
prone the technology was.
These persons migrated to management and right now have only that
mindset to reason about "mainstream" versus "legacy".
--
Cesar Rabak
On Jul 17, 5:20 pm, Cesar Rabak <·······@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
> Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
> > Crash and Burn your Java projecthttp://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
> > The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
> > excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>
> I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>
> The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
> can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>
> There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows at
> least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
The article is not part of the book though author mentions java
several times liek
Java Is Hazardous to the Health of Your Projects . I just wanted to
show you how author writes so you could choose did it get's to your
ears or not.
The book is about making software development as craftsman product
instead of software engineering. McBreen suggestions to choose a
battle proven, defined by standard instead of latest, overhyped,
proprietory and impelmentation defined dictator driven langauges is
quite favourable with lisp. There is a lot fo nice thoughts about
learning on the job with apprenticing instead of stupid certification
programms coming from programmer-producing-factories. He values
personal recommendation for hiring and seeing programmer portfolio
instead of stupid interviews.
There is a lot of nice staff in this book the only problem is that
author is unaware of lisp or he's avoiding it because many of those
recommendations suits well for lisp.
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: Book recommendation : Software Craftsmanship: The New Imperative
Date:
Message-ID: <f80v76$mfa$1@aioe.org>
Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:
> On Jul 17, 5:20 pm, Cesar Rabak <·······@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
>> Slobodan Blazeski escreveu:> Excellent book coming from the author of my favourite article How to
>>> Crash and Burn your Java projecthttp://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/papers/CrashAndBurnJava.html
>>> The good thing is that he mentions all over the things that makes lisp
>>> excel, the bad thing is that he never mentions lisp.
>> I find interesting how beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
>>
>> The essay cited is about managing projects and all the sins described
>> can very easily incurred even using Lisp.
>>
>> There is nothing in Lisp that can save You if the management follows at
>> least 70% of the advic^W sarcarm shown.
>
> The article is not part of the book though author mentions java
> several times liek
> Java Is Hazardous to the Health of Your Projects . I just wanted to
> show you how author writes so you could choose did it get's to your
> ears or not.
OK.
> The book is about making software development as craftsman product
> instead of software engineering. McBreen suggestions to choose a
> battle proven, defined by standard instead of latest, overhyped,
> proprietory and impelmentation defined dictator driven langauges is
> quite favourable with lisp.
No matter how much we like or not, Java, C++ fit the bill for 'battle
proven' and 'defined by standard', besides, most of the market doesn't
care if the standard comes from an International Body or a 'dictator'.
> There is a lot fo nice thoughts about
> learning on the job with apprenticing instead of stupid certification
> programms coming from programmer-producing-factories.
I thinks so. However, this view is hard to 'sell', while the idea of a
permanent stream of programmers entering the market at a steady rate
warm the hearts of the managers that see an insurance that the wages
will not rise as the experience and the value of the craftspersons.
> He values
> personal recommendation for hiring and seeing programmer portfolio
> instead of stupid interviews.
This is a double edged sword: it is easy to show that this can lead to
nepotism instead of technical excelence as well.
> There is a lot of nice staff in this book the only problem is that
> author is unaware of lisp or he's avoiding it because many of those
> recommendations suits well for lisp.
>
I maintain the issues the author brings are orthogonal to the advantages
of the use of Lisp as technology.
I /suspect/ its use of Java is only to get attention and ensure audience
that they're not imune to its findings.
In fact, nowadays Java is an easy target to be bashed...
--
Cesar Rabak