As a student major in computer science, I finally found myself lost in
this field. Last night, I stood up all night long to think what i have
learnt in my four-year's college life and what i need to learn in my
future career. The result make me confused.
When i was still in school, students in higher grade loved to talk
about the "real hackers", who seems had the magic power, and nearly
knew everything essential in their fields. A real hacker can write
code in secret ways that lead to high efficiency. However, It seems i
can never be this kind of guys.
I once participated in the ACM competation. The result is i found my
stupidity at last. I can not implement my algorithms clearly in a
short time. And countless little errors in all implementations of mine
annoy me.
Also, I took part in some open source projects. There still are
problems. I was newbie no only in the discussions of IRC-channel but
also in the forum. This is fine, since I thought i should be newbie at
first. But this newbie life is too long because i don't know what
should i learn to improve myself.
Almost, from every perspective, I was a loser in study. Althought I
had read some additional books, spent lots of time in thinking, I
still lost my way in such a big world...
Posting this message here may be not appropriate, but i really do not
know what else should i do. And it is after learning LISP that i began
to have some confidence to solve this problem.
Thanks for any suggestion. Any personal experience is welcome.
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> As a student major in computer science, I finally found myself lost in
> this field. Last night, I stood up all night long to think what i have
> learnt in my four-year's college life and what i need to learn in my
> future career. The result make me confused.
>
> When i was still in school, students in higher grade loved to talk
> about the "real hackers", who seems had the magic power, and nearly
> knew everything essential in their fields. A real hacker can write
> code in secret ways that lead to high efficiency. However, It seems i
> can never be this kind of guys.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ace/Literaria/Poem-Graves.html
hth,kxo
Being confused about computer science concepts or skills is OK. We
all started out that way (well, maybe RMS didn't).
What isn't OK is going into computer science solely because it looks
like a way to make money, or because someone else told you it's a good
career. If you don't enjoy at least some of what you're doing, you
will never get as good at it as most of the rest of us, who would have
to be driven away from computers with sticks and stones.
If you've never gotten that little thrill from seeing your code run,
or have gotten through an analysis of algorithms course without
thinking "now THAT'S cool!" about at least one of the sorting
algorithms, get out now.
You can build skill - it's much harder to build enthusiasm.
On 2007-07-05 08:36:36 +0200, ··········@gmail.com" <·········@gmail.com> said:
> As a student major in computer science, I finally found myself lost in
> this field. Last night, I stood up all night long to think what i have
> learnt in my four-year's college life and what i need to learn in my
> future career. The result make me confused.
>
> When i was still in school, students in higher grade loved to talk
> about the "real hackers", who seems had the magic power, and nearly
> knew everything essential in their fields. A real hacker can write
> code in secret ways that lead to high efficiency. However, It seems i
> can never be this kind of guys.
>
> I once participated in the ACM competation. The result is i found my
> stupidity at last. I can not implement my algorithms clearly in a
> short time. And countless little errors in all implementations of mine
> annoy me.
>
> Also, I took part in some open source projects. There still are
> problems. I was newbie no only in the discussions of IRC-channel but
> also in the forum. This is fine, since I thought i should be newbie at
> first. But this newbie life is too long because i don't know what
> should i learn to improve myself.
>
> Almost, from every perspective, I was a loser in study. Althought I
> had read some additional books, spent lots of time in thinking, I
> still lost my way in such a big world...
>
> Posting this message here may be not appropriate, but i really do not
> know what else should i do. And it is after learning LISP that i began
> to have some confidence to solve this problem.
>
> Thanks for any suggestion. Any personal experience is welcome.
Practice is a good way to improve skills. Most people with excellent
skills made it the old fashioned way of learning and practicing.
Also as discussed before there is a difference between 'computer science'
and 'software development'. The latter is a consumer of
results of the former.
If you want to improve your hacking skills there is nothing better than
picking a realistic and useful project and coding it. We see lots of
people fantazing about the power of programming languages (and
Lisp) who seem to never had a successful project using it. In the
end programming languages are tools and they are used to
create software. Software is more interesting if the software
does something useful for 'end users' in some domain. Publishing
a successful piece of software is a bit more than just writing it. So
there is lots
to learn and experience, if your goal is to write software.
So, pick a project and start coding.
--
http://lispm.dyndns.org/
On 5 Jul, 07:36, ··········@gmail.com" <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a student major in computer science, I finally found myself lost in
> this field. Last night, I stood up all night long to think what i have
> learnt in my four-year's college life and what i need to learn in my
> future career. The result make me confused.
>
> When i was still in school, students in higher grade loved to talk
> about the "real hackers", who seems had the magic power, and nearly
> knew everything essential in their fields. A real hacker can write
> code in secret ways that lead to high efficiency. However, It seems i
> can never be this kind of guys.
>
> I once participated in the ACM competation. The result is i found my
> stupidity at last. I can not implement my algorithms clearly in a
> short time. And countless little errors in all implementations of mine
> annoy me.
>
> Also, I took part in some open source projects. There still are
> problems. I was newbie no only in the discussions of IRC-channel but
> also in the forum. This is fine, since I thought i should be newbie at
> first. But this newbie life is too long because i don't know what
> should i learn to improve myself.
>
> Almost, from every perspective, I was a loser in study. Althought I
> had read some additional books, spent lots of time in thinking, I
> still lost my way in such a big world...
>
> Posting this message here may be not appropriate, but i really do not
> know what else should i do. And it is after learning LISP that i began
> to have some confidence to solve this problem.
>
> Thanks for any suggestion. Any personal experience is welcome.
There's no real magic power you know. It's practice really thats
all.
Apart of the problem is that CS is such a mess as taught in many
depts. Some people (me included) think that CS does not exist as
such (see this recent discussion for divergent examples of how
different people imagine an ideal CS degree).
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/af910695ce7b7524/?hl=en#
Don't think that your confusion is *your* confusion. Plenty of people
out there are confused by CS - including people who don't know they're
confused and think they know it.
You can't possibly know it all; so all you can do is pick a piece and
learn to understand it.
This business of feeling a failure comes up several times. Have a
look at what I said about failure in this thread to the Buddhist
group.
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.philosophy/browse_frm/thread/3d2bcf389251fbf/bafab2a8c071f51b?lnk=gst&q=tarver&rnum=4&hl=en#bafab2a8c071f51b
and also about succeeding at school and failing at uni.
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
and finally about wu wei and the characteristic of being a sage -of
being in the world but not dominated or swept away by it
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/Web/d36.htm
The gist of it for you is contained in the conclusion of the first
link.
*****************************************************************
One extra remark; forget this goals thing though. You'll find your
deepest happiness when you follow the path of your heart *for the sake
of the path itself*. When you do that you forget yourself and
failure is defined away.
At that point your deepest passion and the Buddhist goal of
self-abnegation fuse together. Remember this and you will not fail.
*****************************************************************
In other words if you feel passionate about something you just get
involved in it and forget yourself. On the other hand if you're doing
it because you want to be a guitar hero, chances are you'll get bored,
disillusioned with your abilities and give it up and feel a failure.
You're young, give yourself time and experiment with stuff. You're on
a path.
Mark
> I once participated in the ACM competation. The result is i found my
> stupidity at last. I can not implement my algorithms clearly in a
> short time. And countless little errors in all implementations of mine
> annoy me.
I am a head of development at a uk top-5 voip provider. I have no CS
and math education. Be sure i will solve zero ACM comp. problems. Real
life really differs from theese math'n'puzzles.
I wrote commercial software in C, C++ and Erlang. Now switching to
Forth.
> But this newbie life is too long because i don't know what
> should i learn to improve myself.
You will succeed if programming is your life. Get "Two for the Money"
movie. Guy was a god when his job was his live. And he was nothing
when his job became "job only".
> Posting this message here may be not appropriate, but i really do not
> know what else should i do. And it is after learning LISP that i began
> to have some confidence to solve this problem.
Learn Assembler. Write your own Forth. Write your own Lisp. Learn
SmallTalk and C. You'll be a god who can write any language and in any
language.
Self-education is only way to be a programmer. _Constant_ self-
education. It was really hard to learn programming in thouse days when
there was no internet around. Now it's even in your mobile phone. It's
easier to get an information about programming on internet then in a
library. Go read and write.
What u really wanted? I think this is the very problem.
If cs or sth. couldn't make you fun,or u couldn't get any joy from
that,even it made u weary,do u think it worth anything for u?U need to
consider what u really interested in and do the right thing for
urself,enjoy ur life.
First off, failure is a strong word to use for not being as good at
something as you would like to be. It's more appropriate to use words
like that when you do something really dumb, like calling an entire
news group "socially challenged" or something like that.
Second of all, you are to be applauded for doing something to find the
limits of your abilities. It was a good thing to participate in that
competition, even though it revealed you are not as good (yet) as you
would like to be. Many people never do anything that will
definitively show how good or bad there really are. This is because
when they fail they can always say "Well, maybe I could have done it
if I tried harder." Which is psychologically easier than "I tried
really hard and still failed."
Author Malcolm Gladwell discusses this idea here (search down for the
word "fail"):
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060302
"If you get drunk the night before an exam instead of studying and you
fail, then the problem is that you got drunk. If you do study and you
fail, the problem is that you're stupid -- and stupid, for a student,
is a death sentence."
So, give yourself some credit for pushing yourself hard trying to
accomplish something. This is not failure. Being unwilling to find
the limits of your abilities would be a much more serious (and much
more common) failure.
More generally, most people are not aware just how bad they are at the
things they are bad at. Which means they can't improve, because they
mistakenly think they are already pretty good. Having the knowledge
of what you are not good at (or not as good as you would like) is a
painful blessing. It means you have the capability of getting
better. Which, while temporarily painful, is a blessing in the long
run.
Peace be with you,
-jimbo
·········@gmail.com <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> Posting this message here may be not appropriate, but i really do not
> know what else should i do. And it is after learning LISP that i began
> to have some confidence to solve this problem.
>
> Thanks for any suggestion. Any personal experience is welcome.
Whether it's a natural or a computer language, the only way to learn to
write well is to practice, practice, practice under the eye of a stern
mentor. Write, and share what you write, and ask for criticism.
On Jul 5, 4:36 pm, ··········@gmail.com" <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a student major in computer science, I finally found myself lost in
> this field. Last night, I stood up all night long to think what i have
> learnt in my four-year's college life and what i need to learn in my
> future career. The result make me confused.
>
> When i was still in school, students in higher grade loved to talk
> about the "real hackers", who seems had the magic power, and nearly
> knew everything essential in their fields. A real hacker can write
> code in secret ways that lead to high efficiency. However, It seems i
> can never be this kind of guys.
>
> I once participated in the ACM competation. The result is i found my
> stupidity at last. I can not implement my algorithms clearly in a
> short time. And countless little errors in all implementations of mine
> annoy me.
>
> Also, I took part in some open source projects. There still are
> problems. I was newbie no only in the discussions of IRC-channel but
> also in the forum. This is fine, since I thought i should be newbie at
> first. But this newbie life is too long because i don't know what
> should i learn to improve myself.
>
> Almost, from every perspective, I was a loser in study. Althought I
> had read some additional books, spent lots of time in thinking, I
> still lost my way in such a big world...
>
> Posting this message here may be not appropriate, but i really do not
> know what else should i do. And it is after learning LISP that i began
> to have some confidence to solve this problem.
>
> Thanks for any suggestion. Any personal experience is welcome.
There was an article in Scientific American a while back about what
makes a "genius". The conclusion was that, while talent matters, what
really counts is 10 years of hard effort. This applies to many fields:
music, chess, science, complex technical fields of all kinds, writing,
acting etc. (Having done some acting classes I can tell you it's not
easy!). So after 4 years you should not expect to be a zen master.
To help with learning Lisp I recently read Peter Norvig's "Paradigms
of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp".
I found a lot of his code hard to understand at first. But I felt a
little better when I read his comment that he had been writing Lisp
"for many years". You just can't expect to get really good at
something difficult in a flash.
It's important to keep pushing. If you feel really comfortable with
what you are doing you are probably not learning much. A lot of people
end up with the proverbial "1 year of experience 30 times" because
they stay in a comfortable place.
Also, the difference between people who succeed and those who don't is
that people who succeed view setbacks as an opportunity to learn
rather than proof that success is impossible. Keep trying, and try new
approaches. Learn from others, especially others' mistakes. Read some
biographies and you will see I am right - Abraham Lincoln is a classic
example. Even Einstein had some major setbacks and failures.
So in summary:
1. The fact it seems hard is OK.
2. Keep pushing.
3. Persist but in a flexible way.
Tim Josling
Just travel out to have an exam for serveral days, And thanks for your
suggestions!
do not care about the results, just enjoy the process. This may be the
best way to achieve one's dream. This ruler works to me.
I'll practice more and more in the LISP world.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will
not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius
will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not;
the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will
solve the problems of the human race."
--Calvin Coolidge
Thirty years ago, I found myself deep in despair that I would never
learn enough about programming. I had learned enough to write programs
in Fortran IV, three or four dialects of BASIC, two of PL/1, Ratfor,
Pascal, one or two assembly languages, and some MacLisp, along with
other, more arcane languages. I had used batch and timesharing systems
on mainframes, minicomputers, and microcomputers and achieved
reasonably expert proficiency on several of them. I had built (with
help) a computer terminal from a kit.
All this gave me plenty of pleasure and satisfaction, yet I could not
shake the feeling that there was too much more to learn, that I would
never be able to "catch up" with the other people around me, that I
simply did not have whatever it takes to be successful with the
current technology much less be able to keep up with its relentless
progress.
There was nothing else to do -- except to keep going, keep learning,
keep trying. As I found myself mastering more and more systems,
acquiring more skills and developing an ability to produce robust and
fault-tolerant software, I came to realize that the despair that I
thought I once felt was actually a form of _hunger_. And I also
learned along the way that you don't really need to have value in
everyone's eyes, only in someone's eyes.
It seems as if it should be worse these days -- technology seems to
advance with increasing acceleration. Some of that perception must be
due, however, to our increased potential awareness of what's happening
-- we no longer need to wait for a new commercial product to be
introduced or for a paper to be presented at a conference or even for
an article to appear in next month's Byte magazine or industry rag.
All it takes is a Google search, and the more you search, the more you
discover out there that you didn't know about before.
If you ever find yourself thinking you've found all the right
techniques, all the right tools, all the right answers, then watch out
-- you yourself have stopped advancing and stagnated. That's called
being "in a rut", a place where many technical people may be found,
even today, whether they realize it or not.
As a consequence of the free software "movement", open source, and
similar philosophies, it is possible to choose a position standing on
the shoulders of others rather than feeling like you're left behind in
their dust. All you have to do is -- keep going. Keep learning how to
use others' stuff. Keep building your own stuff. Keep placing yourself
into situations where you are forced to break through the obstacles
and solve the problems -- just like everyone else said in various ways
earlier in this thread.
Coolidge got it right. There are no final, ultimately correct answers,
and if you stop pressing on, you may do worse than fail.