From: McCLIM Developers
Subject: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <newscache$04tvbj$ay4$1@news.sil.at>
The McCLIM developers are happy to release version 0.9.4 of McCLIM,
code-named "Orthodox New Year". This release includes some great
improvements, from a new editor substrate ("DREI") to many cool new
features in the Gtkairo backend, and many compatibility enhancements and
extensions to the core of McCLIM.

Note that due to the radical changes introduced by the new editor
substrate, some bugs may surface in day-to-day use. Refer to the section
"Known Bugs" in the included release notes for details.

When testing this release, we found that it works on the following
implementations:

 * SBCL
 * OpenMCL
 * CLISP
 * Allegro Common Lisp 8.0 in ANSI Mode

For compatibility with other implementations, please see the attached
release notes.

Get the tarball at
<http://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/downloads/mcclim-0.9.4.tar.gz>
or install McCLIM via asdf-install.

We are looking forward to your comments and bug reports. Please send
them to mcclim-devel at common-lisp.net. The list of currently known
bugs can be found at <http://mcclim.cliki.net/Bug>.

Have fun using McCLIM,
The McCLIM developers.




RELEASE NOTES FOR McCLIM 0.9.4, "Orthodox New Year":

Compatibility
=============

This release was tested and found to work on the following
implementations:

 * SBCL
 * OpenMCL
 * CLISP
 * Allegro Common Lisp 8.0 in ANSI Mode

In our tests, this release of McCLIM did not work on the following
implementations:

 * CMUCL (at the time of this release, the released CMUCL has a bug
   that prevents successful loading of McCLIM; CMUCL 19d + patch 1 and
   the 2006-12 snapshot or later contain a fix for this problem)

Also, McCLIM currently does not support lisps with case-sensitive
readers (ACL "modern mode" and lower-case SCL).

Known Bugs
==========

Due to the radical changes introduced by the new editor substrate,
some bugs may surface in day-to-day use. We would very much like to
hear about them on ············@common-lisp.net. As a work-around, you
can enable the old input substrate by using
	(setf climi::*use-goatee* t)
on the REPL when clim is loaded.

The following bugs are known to exist:

* McCLIM freetype can interact poorly with Drei under some
  circumstances
* Drei does not handle most reader macros well
* Sometimes, the ENTER key is not very responsive when editing forms
  with Drei
* Calling stream-input-buffer is still buggy.

Changes in mcclim-0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" relative to 0.9.3:
==============================================================

>From the NEWS file:

* cleanup: removed the obsolete system.lisp file.
* backend improvements: Gtkairo
** Double buffering is now supported (fixes disappearing widgets on
    Windows).
** X errors no longer terminate the lisp process.
** Some bugfixes, including CMUCL support and better key event handling.
** Native implementation of context menus, list panes, label panes, and
    option panes.
** Draw text using Pango.  (Bug fix: Fixed-width font supported on
    Windows now.  Multiple lines of output in TEXT-SIZE supported now.
    TEXT-STYLE-FIXED-WIDTH-P works correctly now.)
* Improvement: Added new editor substrate ("Drei").
* Improvement: Improved the pathname presentation methods considerably.
* specification compliance: DELETE-GESTURE-NAME function now
   implemented.
* specification compliance: PRESENTATION-TYPE-SPECIFIER-P presentaion
   function now implemented.
* specification compliance: DISPLAY-COMMAND-TABLE-MENU function now
   implemented.
* specification compliance: DISPLAY-COMMAND-MENU function now
   implemented.
* specification compliance: POINTER-PLACE-RUBBER-BAND-LINE* function
   now implemented.
* specification compliance: POINTER-INPUT-RECTANGLE* function now
   implemented.
* specification compliance: POINTER-INPUT-RECTANGLE function now
   implemented.
* Improvement: Added font listing support, see section "Fonts and
   Extended Text Styles" in the manual.
* Improvement: Added support for bezier splines (Robert Strandh).
   To be documented.
* better PRESENTATION-SUBTYPEP (more likely to give the right answer
   on some-of and all-of presentation types)
* Improvement: M-n/M-p gestures for navigating presentation histories.

From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <GHzqh.94$OT6.43@newsfe11.lga>
McCLIM Developers wrote:
> The McCLIM developers are happy to release version 0.9.4 of McCLIM,
> code-named "Orthodox New Year". This release includes some great
> improvements, from a new editor substrate ("DREI") to many cool new
> features in the Gtkairo backend, and many compatibility enhancements and
> extensions to the core of McCLIM.
> 
> Note that due to the radical changes introduced by the new editor
> substrate, some bugs may surface in day-to-day use. Refer to the section
> "Known Bugs" in the included release notes for details.
> 
> When testing this release, we found that it works on the following
> implementations:
> 
>  * SBCL
>  * OpenMCL
>  * CLISP
>  * Allegro Common Lisp 8.0 in ANSI Mode
> 
> For compatibility with other implementations, please see the attached
> release notes.
> 
> Get the tarball at
> <http://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/downloads/mcclim-0.9.4.tar.gz>
> or install McCLIM via asdf-install.
> 
> We are looking forward to your comments and bug reports. Please send
> them to mcclim-devel at common-lisp.net. The list of currently known
> bugs can be found at <http://mcclim.cliki.net/Bug>.
> 
> Have fun using McCLIM,
> The McCLIM developers.

(That was too easy.)

C'mon, an interface tool announcement without screen shots?!

Happy New Year, kzo

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <0T3pi0agIc75Nv8%stesch@parsec.no-spoon.de>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> C'mon, an interface tool announcement without screen shots?!

Like this: http://www.tilton-technology.com/cello-shot-05.jpg
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <TsKqh.1$wV5.0@newsfe10.lga>
Stefan Scholl wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>C'mon, an interface tool announcement without screen shots?!
> 
> 
> Like this: http://www.tilton-technology.com/cello-shot-05.jpg
> 

No, you yobs haven't got a sense of humor between you; it would not be 
fair to ask you to do something like that.

Maybe something on win32? McCLIM was claimed to be portable about five 
years ago, we're still waiting on that vapor.

Oh, and please, something a tad more pulse-pounding than:

    http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/clim-lastfm-playing-2.png
    http://ww.telent.net/thyme.png
    ttp://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/screenshots/nicer-address-book.png

Can you do gray-scale, at least? Looks like VT-100 compatibility is a 
design constraint.

:)

kt

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Troels Henriksen
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <87k5zov4y5.fsf@sigkill.dk>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> No, you yobs haven't got a sense of humor between you; it would not be
> fair to ask you to do something like that.

FWIW, I like that screenshot! I've always been fond of orange.

> Oh, and please, something a tad more pulse-pounding than:
>
>     http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/clim-lastfm-playing-2.png
>     http://ww.telent.net/thyme.png
>     ttp://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/screenshots/nicer-address-book.png

There is some vaguely eye-candy-like shots (though it should be
obvious that eye-candy is not the top priority):

http://sigkill.dk/athas/gtkairoshots/
http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/DREI-Listening.png

-- 
\  Troels "Athas"
/\ Henriksen
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <6nLqh.1$My5.0@newsfe12.lga>
Troels Henriksen wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>No, you yobs haven't got a sense of humor between you; it would not be
>>fair to ask you to do something like that.
> 
> 
> FWIW, I like that screenshot! I've always been fond of orange.
> 
> 
>>Oh, and please, something a tad more pulse-pounding than:
>>
>>    http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/clim-lastfm-playing-2.png
>>    http://ww.telent.net/thyme.png
>>    ttp://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/screenshots/nicer-address-book.png
> 
> 
> There is some vaguely eye-candy-like shots (though it should be
> obvious that eye-candy is not the top priority):
> 
> http://sigkill.dk/athas/gtkairoshots/

Now yer talkin! I love the look of gadgets-test -- are those buttons 
from gtk or built from the ground up using Cairo/McCLIM or _______?

kt

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Rainer Joswig
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <joswig-69CCF4.18473715012007@news-europe.giganews.com>
In article <··············@sigkill.dk>,
 Troels Henriksen <·····@sigkill.dk> wrote:

> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > No, you yobs haven't got a sense of humor between you; it would not be
> > fair to ask you to do something like that.
> 
> FWIW, I like that screenshot! I've always been fond of orange.
> 
> > Oh, and please, something a tad more pulse-pounding than:
> >
> >     http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/clim-lastfm-playing-2.png
> >     http://ww.telent.net/thyme.png
> >     ttp://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/screenshots/nicer-address-book.png
> 
> There is some vaguely eye-candy-like shots (though it should be
> obvious that eye-candy is not the top priority):
> 
> http://sigkill.dk/athas/gtkairoshots/
> http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/DREI-Listening.png

I think both DREI and the GTK backend is quite cool. Looks like fun...
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <8764b82yvg.fsf@plato.moon.paoloamoroso.it>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Oh, and please, something a tad more pulse-pounding than:
>
>     http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/clim-lastfm-playing-2.png
>     http://ww.telent.net/thyme.png
>     ttp://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/screenshots/nicer-address-book.png
>
> Can you do gray-scale, at least? Looks like VT-100 compatibility is a
> design constraint.

Hmm...  Isn't this bleeding-edge enough?

  http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png


Paolo
-- 
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
The Common Lisp Directory: http://www.cl-user.net
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <CVLqh.3$pa6.1@newsfe09.lga>
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Oh, and please, something a tad more pulse-pounding than:
>>
>>    http://boinkor.net/lisp/porn/clim-lastfm-playing-2.png
>>    http://ww.telent.net/thyme.png
>>    ttp://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/screenshots/nicer-address-book.png
>>
>>Can you do gray-scale, at least? Looks like VT-100 compatibility is a
>>design constraint.
> 
> 
> Hmm...  Isn't this bleeding-edge enough?
> 
>   http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png

Oops, my bad: it can do grays! Looks like sixteen, at a minimum!

:)

kenny

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <87r6twccz6.fsf@plato.moon.paoloamoroso.it>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
[...]
>> Hmm...  Isn't this bleeding-edge enough?
>>   http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png
>
> Oops, my bad: it can do grays! Looks like sixteen, at a minimum!

Kenny, it's a bit painful to explain a joke :) Could you please check
the above screen shot again?  Hint: the joke is not about grayscale
graphics.  It takes some basic knowledge of Lisp history to get it.


Paolo
-- 
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
The Common Lisp Directory: http://www.cl-user.net
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <DWQqh.44$tZ2.0@newsfe11.lga>
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>>Hmm...  Isn't this bleeding-edge enough?
>>>  http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png
>>
>>Oops, my bad: it can do grays! Looks like sixteen, at a minimum!
> 
> 
> Kenny, it's a bit painful to explain a joke :) Could you please check
> the above screen shot again?

OK, but that will make it about the thousandth view since that seems to 
be the only thing that has ever been done with *CLIM.

>  Hint: the joke is not about grayscale
> graphics.

I know, I was just riffing off what you posted.

>  It takes some basic knowledge of Lisp history to get it.

Everyone in the address book is a famous old Lisp hemophiliac?

kt

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <87r6twavx3.fsf@plato.moon.paoloamoroso.it>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
[...]
>>  It takes some basic knowledge of Lisp history to get it.
>
> Everyone in the address book is a famous old Lisp hemophiliac?

I meant that the windows in this experimental McCLIM screen shot:

  http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png

resemble those of Symbolics Genera, e.g.:

  http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/development-environment/file-system-maintenance.gif

See the topmost border of the largest pane in the McCLIM shot:

  http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png

Well, it looked funny...


Paolo
-- 
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
The Common Lisp Directory: http://www.cl-user.net
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <kuRqh.64$W63.15@newsfe08.lga>
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> It takes some basic knowledge of Lisp history to get it.
>>
>>Everyone in the address book is a famous old Lisp hemophiliac?
> 
> 
> I meant that the windows in this experimental McCLIM screen shot:
> 
>   http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png
> 
> resemble those of Symbolics Genera, e.g.:
> 
>   http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/development-environment/file-system-maintenance.gif
> 
> See the topmost border of the largest pane in the McCLIM shot:
> 
>   http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/design-studies/retro-look.png
> 
> Well, it looked funny...

<puzzled> Maybe it's a language thing -- do you know what "retro-look" 
means? The resemblance is deliberate.

The sad thing is that they probably did not have to make any special 
effort to look that bad. :)

Well, the Gtk shots look nice. It's about time. I know CLIM is about a 
"presentation management" abstraction and not eye-candy, but I was 
starting to think it somehow made eye-candy impossible. Probably it is 
just the McCLIM /developers/ who (like most Lispniks) are out of touch 
with application software development.

kenny

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: ··@codeartist.org
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <1168895201.891309.123800@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton schrieb:

> Well, the Gtk shots look nice. It's about time. I know CLIM is about a
> "presentation management" abstraction and not eye-candy, but I was
> starting to think it somehow made eye-candy impossible. Probably it is
> just the McCLIM /developers/ who (like most Lispniks) are out of touch
> with application software development.

I agree that the new Gtk shots look really nice. Regarding the question
if the McCLIM developers might be out of touch with application
software development: I can't say, but on the other side... after
looking at the screenshots in

  http://www.tilton-technology.com/fg_tibco.html

I remember me thinking "hm looks like those old tcl/tk apps I ran on my
8 year old netbsd pc". Then I remembered that this actually is tcl/tk!
;-)

ciao,
Jochen
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <8ZSqh.37$My5.16@newsfe12.lga>
··@codeartist.org wrote:
> Ken Tilton schrieb:
> 
> 
>>Well, the Gtk shots look nice. It's about time. I know CLIM is about a
>>"presentation management" abstraction and not eye-candy, but I was
>>starting to think it somehow made eye-candy impossible. Probably it is
>>just the McCLIM /developers/ who (like most Lispniks) are out of touch
>>with application software development.
> 
> 
> I agree that the new Gtk shots look really nice. Regarding the question
> if the McCLIM developers might be out of touch with application
> software development: I can't say, but on the other side... after
> looking at the screenshots in
> 
>   http://www.tilton-technology.com/fg_tibco.html
> 
> I remember me thinking "hm looks like those old tcl/tk apps I ran on my
> 8 year old netbsd pc". Then I remembered that this actually is tcl/tk!
> ;-)

I thought you all wanted native widgets! :)

Anyway, one of Tilton's Laws applies here: it's a Tibco console 
emulator, not an F-16 cockpit simulator: it is /supposed/ to look 
boring* (tho I am jawboning them to make it go PING in the next release).

kt

* Actually, I think it looks pretty good, and wondered if Frank had his 
designer friend help him with that aspect.**

** Or is this simply a recreation of a hardware console?***

*** Or the Java software console it was replacing? Which might be**?

k

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: ··@codeartist.org
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <1168904082.088612.265560@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton schrieb:

> I thought you all wanted native widgets! :)

Oh yes we do :-) but native widgets is not enough to make an
application look and feel right. For example the Tibco console: The
background seems to be plain white. Neither the pin-striped background
nor the (often critized) brushed-metal look is used. The form fields
are grouped by frames which look wrong (they could have more rounded
borders and normally have a pin-striped background in non-brushed-metal
apps I know). The two buttons on the right sight (both embedded in
their own bordered box) and the red background in the input fields were
the things that look really tcl/tk'ish to my eye.

> Anyway, one of Tilton's Laws applies here: it's a Tibco console
> emulator, not an F-16 cockpit simulator: it is /supposed/ to look
> boring* (tho I am jawboning them to make it go PING in the next release).

Of course - and looking good is certainly not the most important thing
for this kind of app - so I hope the developers do not take this as an
offense :-) I actually have never built anything using tcl/tk and
therefore cannot say how difficult it is or if it is even possible to
make those apps look more native.

ciao,
Jochen
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <0LUqh.84$My5.81@newsfe12.lga>
··@codeartist.org wrote:
> Of course - and looking good is certainly not the most important thing
> for this kind of app - so I hope the developers do not take this as an
> offense :-) I actually have never built anything using tcl/tk and
> therefore cannot say how difficult it is or if it is even possible to
> make those apps look more native.

<cough> Blame the damn Open Source Fairy, who has left the building 
without converting Celtk to use Tile:

    http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/screenshots/macosx.html

That is just the OS X page, root around for other screenshots. WTF is 
Tile? From the main Tile link:

"The Tile Widget Set is a next-generation re-implementation of many of 
the core Tk widgets, along with the addition of several new widgets. 
With Tile, Tk applications can achieve an appearance much closer to 
native platform widgets, as well as take advantage of a modern, highly 
dynamic theme engine to produce a wide variety of alternative user 
interface styles. Tile widgets complement the existing Tk widgets, and 
Tile is currently being incorporated directly into Tk."

Unfortunately, His Kennyness is now fully committed to Cello and Himself 
ain't lookin back, so CelTk/Tile is left as an exercise.

Come to think of it, Celtk is up for adoption (as Peter Denno adopted 
Cells-Gtk*) and really could use its own c-l.net project (resides under 
Cells now). Adding Tile would be a nice launch task for a new Celtk project.

kenzo

* The creepy little sound you hear is Cells quietly taking over the Lisp 
world. MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... k

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Who was that masked Open Source fairy? [was Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!]
Date: 
Message-ID: <xwZqh.88$W63.86@newsfe08.lga>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
> ··@codeartist.org wrote:
> 
>> Of course - and looking good is certainly not the most important thing
>> for this kind of app - so I hope the developers do not take this as an
>> offense :-) I actually have never built anything using tcl/tk and
>> therefore cannot say how difficult it is or if it is even possible to
>> make those apps look more native.
> 
> 
> <cough> Blame the damn Open Source Fairy, who has left the building 
> without converting Celtk to use Tile:
> 
>    http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/screenshots/macosx.html
> 
> That is just the OS X page, root around for other screenshots. WTF is 
> Tile? From the main Tile link:
> 
> "The Tile Widget Set is a next-generation re-implementation of many of 
> the core Tk widgets, along with the addition of several new widgets. 
> With Tile, Tk applications can achieve an appearance much closer to 
> native platform widgets, as well as take advantage of a modern, highly 
> dynamic theme engine to produce a wide variety of alternative user 
> interface styles. Tile widgets complement the existing Tk widgets, and 
> Tile is currently being incorporated directly into Tk."
> 
> Unfortunately, His Kennyness is now fully committed to Cello and Himself 
> ain't lookin back, so CelTk/Tile is left as an exercise.
> 
> Come to think of it, Celtk is up for adoption (as Peter Denno adopted 
> Cells-Gtk*) and really could use its own c-l.net project (resides under 
> Cells now). Adding Tile would be a nice launch task for a new Celtk 
> project.

Nonsense:

-- download the frickin package and install in <tcl>\lib

-- (define-foreign-library Tile
     ;(:darwin (:framework "Tk"))
   (:windows (:or "/tcl/lib/tile/tile078.dll"))
   ;(:unix "libtk.so")
   (t (:default "libtk")))

-- (defun tk-interp-init-ensure ()
   (unless *initialized*
     (use-foreign-library Tcl)
     (use-foreign-library Tk)
     (use-foreign-library Tile)
     (use-foreign-library Togl)
     (tcl-find-executable (argv0))
     (set-initialized)))

-- in run-window (extra lines show where):

   (tk-format-now "package require snack")
   (tk-format-now "package require tile")
   (tk-format-now "tile::setTheme xpnative") ;; <-- aqua on OS X?
   (tk-format-now "namespace import -force ttk::*")
   (tk-format-now "snack::sound s")

-- (pushnew :tile *features* somewhere
-- defeat obsolete options (sorry 'bout the formatting):

(defgeneric tk-class-options (self)
   (:method-combination append)
   (:method :around (self)
     #+tile
    (or (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
     (setf (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
     (loop with all = (remove-duplicates (call-next-method) :key 'second)
              for old in '(pady padx height indicatoron relief tk-label)
                      do (setf old (delete old all :key 'car))
                      finally (return all))))
     #-tile (or (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
              (setf (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
                (remove-duplicates (call-next-method) :key 'second)))))

Just Run It(tm). Hellasweet: XP widgets following the XP theme set in 
the display control panel.

Frank, you are hoping "tile::setTheme aqua" works on the OS X Tile. Did 
not on win XP, I guess for obvious reasons (could be a tough compile 
<g>). I'll wait up late for the updated screenshot.

Die, McCLIM, die!!!!

:)

Oops, fair warning. The test of lotsa-widgets ran, but the picture of 
kenzo69 is no longer truncated because the width and height options had 
to be suppressed. So the portability is great, but you may have some 
work to do to really seal the deal.

kenny

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Who was that masked Open Source fairy? [was Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!]
Date: 
Message-ID: <GPZqh.89$W63.83@newsfe08.lga>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 

> -- (define-foreign-library Tile
>     ;(:darwin (:framework "Tk"))
>   (:windows (:or "/tcl/lib/tile/tile078.dll"))
>   ;(:unix "libtk.so")
>   (t (:default "libtk")))
> 

..and...
>     (use-foreign-library Tk)


Fine, I am an idiot, those two steps are not necessary. There /is/ a 
little geometry API accessible via C, but I do not see what it is for.

kzo


-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Who was that masked Open Source fairy? [was Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!]
Date: 
Message-ID: <h41rh.94$W63.92@newsfe08.lga>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> ··@codeartist.org wrote:
>>
>>> Of course - and looking good is certainly not the most important thing
>>> for this kind of app - so I hope the developers do not take this as an
>>> offense :-) I actually have never built anything using tcl/tk and
>>> therefore cannot say how difficult it is or if it is even possible to
>>> make those apps look more native.
>>
>>
>>
>> <cough> Blame the damn Open Source Fairy, who has left the building 
>> without converting Celtk to use Tile:
>>
>>    http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/screenshots/macosx.html
>>
>> That is just the OS X page, root around for other screenshots. WTF is 
>> Tile? From the main Tile link:
>>
>> "The Tile Widget Set is a next-generation re-implementation of many of 
>> the core Tk widgets, along with the addition of several new widgets. 
>> With Tile, Tk applications can achieve an appearance much closer to 
>> native platform widgets, as well as take advantage of a modern, highly 
>> dynamic theme engine to produce a wide variety of alternative user 
>> interface styles. Tile widgets complement the existing Tk widgets, and 
>> Tile is currently being incorporated directly into Tk."
>>
>> Unfortunately, His Kennyness is now fully committed to Cello and 
>> Himself ain't lookin back, so CelTk/Tile is left as an exercise.
>>
>> Come to think of it, Celtk is up for adoption (as Peter Denno adopted 
>> Cells-Gtk*) and really could use its own c-l.net project (resides 
>> under Cells now). Adding Tile would be a nice launch task for a new 
>> Celtk project.
> 
> 
> Nonsense:
> 

Got some tech support from the tile crowd:

>   (tk-format-now "package require tile")

Yes above, but not:

   (tk-format-now "tile::setTheme xpnative") ;; <-- aqua on OS X?

The default will then be xpnative on win32 and aqua on OS X.

Now lose this:

     (tk-format-now "namespace import -force ttk::*")

Just say ttk::button to get a Tile button:

  (defmethod tk-class :around ((self widget))
    (let ((c (call-next-method)))
      (case c
        ((text spinbox listbox canvas) c) ;; no Tile equiv
        (otherwise (conc$ "TTK::" c)))))

And now we can mix and match Tile and Tk Classic, but to /really/ do 
that we would not be able to use conditional compilation (and probably 
do a lot more -- hmmm, come to think of it I just ran lotsa-widgets so i 
must have mixed widget sets (but still suppressed options (a) shared by 
Tile widgets and the remaining classic widgets (b) which Tile does not 
support)).

Anyway, to use Tile wherever possible (unchanged):


> -- (pushnew :tile *features* somewhere
> -- defeat obsolete options (sorry 'bout the formatting):
> 
> (defgeneric tk-class-options (self)
>   (:method-combination append)
>   (:method :around (self)
>     #+tile
>    (or (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
>     (setf (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
>     (loop with all = (remove-duplicates (call-next-method) :key 'second)
>              for old in '(pady padx height indicatoron relief tk-label)
>                      do (setf old (delete old all :key 'car))
>                      finally (return all))))
>     #-tile (or (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
>              (setf (get (type-of self) 'tk-class-options)
>                (remove-duplicates (call-next-method) :key 'second)))))
> 

kzo

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Who was that masked Open Source fairy? [was Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!]
Date: 
Message-ID: <2q1rh.97$W63.49@newsfe08.lga>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> And now we can mix and match Tile and Tk Classic, but to /really/ do 
> that we would not be able to use conditional compilation (and probably 
> do a lot more -- hmmm, come to think of it I just ran lotsa-widgets so i 
> must have mixed widget sets (but still suppressed options (a) shared by 
> Tile widgets and the remaining classic widgets (b) which Tile does not 
> support)).

OK, Celtk now mixes/matches without compromise, and widgets common to 
both Tile and core Tk are both accessible and mixable and fully 
optimizable as each supports (but too much code for c.l.l).

ken

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Frank Goenninger DG1SBG
Subject: Re: Who was that masked Open Source fairy? [was Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!]
Date: 
Message-ID: <lzfyaag46t.fsf@pcsde001.pcs.de.goenninger.net>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Ken Tilton wrote:
>> And now we can mix and match Tile and Tk Classic, but to /really/ do
>> that we would not be able to use conditional compilation (and
>> probably do a lot more -- hmmm, come to think of it I just ran
>> lotsa-widgets so i must have mixed widget sets (but still suppressed
>> options (a) shared by Tile widgets and the remaining classic widgets
>> (b) which Tile does not support)).
>
> OK, Celtk now mixes/matches without compromise, and widgets common to
> both Tile and core Tk are both accessible and mixable and fully
> optimizable as each supports (but too much code for c.l.l).

But that is now in CVS ??? I was half-way down the road to take over
your code snippets but will stop if it's in CVS now ...

>
> ken

Thanks a lot, Kenny - I learnt were to look if a widget change is
required. Something we might if we change to even more esoteric
stuff...

Frank
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Who was that masked Open Source fairy? [was Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!]
Date: 
Message-ID: <Svcrh.130$975.97@newsfe08.lga>
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>
>>>And now we can mix and match Tile and Tk Classic, but to /really/ do
>>>that we would not be able to use conditional compilation (and
>>>probably do a lot more -- hmmm, come to think of it I just ran
>>>lotsa-widgets so i must have mixed widget sets (but still suppressed
>>>options (a) shared by Tile widgets and the remaining classic widgets
>>>(b) which Tile does not support)).
>>
>>OK, Celtk now mixes/matches without compromise, and widgets common to
>>both Tile and core Tk are both accessible and mixable and fully
>>optimizable as each supports (but too much code for c.l.l).
> 
> 
> But that is now in CVS ??? I was half-way down the road to take over
> your code snippets but will stop if it's in CVS now ...

I have things a little mangled now, thought it best to just provide the 
snippets. if you have any trouble I will commit, but then you may have 
other issues I'll describe then.

Meanwhile, Tile developers have cleared up all issues I encountered, so 
things look good for... Celtk II? Celtk Native? Ah, Got it: Celtk United.

kt

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Frank Goenninger DG1SBG
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <lzejpw7wrp.fsf@pcsde001.local>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> I thought you all wanted native widgets! :)

Which is exactly the one requirement we came up with - let it be native.

>
> Anyway, one of Tilton's Laws applies here: it's a Tibco console
> emulator, not an F-16 cockpit simulator: it is /supposed/ to look
> boring* (tho I am jawboning them to make it go PING in the next
> release).

In the works now <g>. Give us a few more minutes ;-)

>
> kt
>
> * Actually, I think it looks pretty good, and wondered if Frank had
> his designer friend help him with that aspect.**

No. It was just me.

>
> ** Or is this simply a recreation of a hardware console?***

No - TIBCO is all software. No hw touched in this project.

>
> *** Or the Java software console it was replacing? Which might be**?

No - that one was ugly. You had to type all over the window to get
just one thing done. So I rearranged stuff a little and threw out some
visual gizzmo stuff.

>
> k

Keep going guys. It's fun reading - and still learning sth...

FG
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <wxTqh.54$My5.14@newsfe12.lga>
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>I thought you all wanted native widgets! :)
> 
> 
> Which is exactly the one requirement we came up with - let it be native.
> 
> 
>>Anyway, one of Tilton's Laws applies here: it's a Tibco console
>>emulator, not an F-16 cockpit simulator: it is /supposed/ to look
>>boring* (tho I am jawboning them to make it go PING in the next
>>release).
> 
> 
> In the works now <g>. Give us a few more minutes ;-)

a bleep and a ping are in the mail.

> 
> 
>>kt
>>
>>* Actually, I think it looks pretty good, and wondered if Frank had
>>his designer friend help him with that aspect.**
> 
> 
> No. It was just me.

Nice. Perhaps the moral is, if one does not know graphic design, stay 
away from PhotoShop:

    http://www.tilton-technology.com/nesting02.jpg

> Keep going guys. It's fun reading - and still learning sth...

I am just grateful for the excuse to visit that Grace Kelly page again.

kenny

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <u0Vqh.85$My5.61@newsfe12.lga>
··@codeartist.org wrote:
> Ken Tilton schrieb:
> 
> 
>>Well, the Gtk shots look nice. It's about time. I know CLIM is about a
>>"presentation management" abstraction and not eye-candy, but I was
>>starting to think it somehow made eye-candy impossible. Probably it is
>>just the McCLIM /developers/ who (like most Lispniks) are out of touch
>>with application software development.
> 
> 
> I agree that the new Gtk shots look really nice. Regarding the question
> if the McCLIM developers might be out of touch with application
> software development: I can't say, but on the other side... after
> looking at the screenshots in
> 
>   http://www.tilton-technology.com/fg_tibco.html
> 
> I remember me thinking "hm looks like those old tcl/tk apps I ran on my
> 8 year old netbsd pc". Then I remembered that this actually is tcl/tk!

Looks like the Tile developers agree wholeheartedly:

"The Tk toolkit was five years ahead of its time � ten years ago. 
Although the foundation is still sound and it remains one of the easiest 
ways to build a GUI, the look and feel has failed to keep up with trends 
and fads in user interfaces. This is most apparent on Windows XP, where 
the native controls have a radically different appearance; and Tk 
applications even look out of place on Unix nowadays under modern 
desktop environments like Gnome and KDE.

"The Tile widget set provides a new look for Tk..."
              from: http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/tile-tcl2004.pdf

The Tibco console is fine as is, but with G&C planning more Celtk 
development a Tile makeover might not be a bad idea.

Aside: one of the great things about tcl/Tk to me is that it seems very 
active, esp. on OS X where Gtk seems to be dragging its feet.

kzo

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: C Y
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <1168896308.260365.99950@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:

> C'mon, an interface tool announcement without screen shots?!

Well, it's not quite current as far as this release goes, but you might
Gsharp rendered with gtkairo interesting (yes my gtk theme is a bit
boring...):

http://portal.axiom-developer.org/Members/starseeker/gsharp_gtkairo-12_3_06.png

Gsharp has some Really Interesting features.  The notes in this sheet
are not drawn using traditional fonts any more but using metafont-like
techniques (if I understand correctly).

Cheers,
CY
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <w1Tqh.38$My5.35@newsfe12.lga>
C Y wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
>>C'mon, an interface tool announcement without screen shots?!
> 
> 
> Well, it's not quite current as far as this release goes, but you might
> Gsharp rendered with gtkairo interesting (yes my gtk theme is a bit
> boring...):
> 
> http://portal.axiom-developer.org/Members/starseeker/gsharp_gtkairo-12_3_06.png
> 
> Gsharp has some Really Interesting features.  The notes in this sheet
> are not drawn using traditional fonts any more but using metafont-like
> techniques (if I understand correctly).

Oh, I thought that was just Postcript. Not that fonts and postscript are 
mutually exclusive.

GSharp is a gorgeous app, but it is not clear that McCLIM should get 
credit for those beautiful scores any more than Cello should get credit 
for this beauty: http://www.tilton-technology.com/cello-shot-06.jpg

:)

kt

-- 
The Dalai Lama gets the same crap all the time.
   -- Kenny Tilton on c.l.l when accused of immodesty
From: David Lichteblau
Subject: Re: McCLIM 0.9.4 "Orthodox New Year" released!
Date: 
Message-ID: <slrneqpcup.vlr.usenet-2006@babayaga.math.fu-berlin.de>
On 2007-01-15, C Y <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, it's not quite current as far as this release goes, but you might
> Gsharp rendered with gtkairo interesting (yes my gtk theme is a bit
> boring...):
>
> http://portal.axiom-developer.org/Members/starseeker/gsharp_gtkairo-12_3_06.png

That screenshot is indeed completely out of date! :-) The version of
Gtkairo used here was still limited to Gsharp's portable bezier support,
which draws Bezier curves using DRAW-POINT.

Since the cairo medium is configured with antialiasing, it performed
antialiasing for each individual pixel, resulting in terrible, blurry
curves.

(In addition, this version of Gtkairo had a clipping bug, causing the
weird dashed line that should not be there at all.)

Current McCLIM has Robert Strandh's bezier support built-in, and the
cairo medium specializes it to draw bezier curves natively:

http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/bezier/after.png

(Anything that is still blurry is not a bezier curve.)


David