http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
Go, Frank, go!
kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"Algebra is the metaphysics of arithmetic." - John Ray
"As long as algebra is taught in school,
there will be prayer in school." - Cokie Roberts
"Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra."
- Fran Lebowitz
"I'm an algebra liar. I figure two good lies make a positive."
- Tim Allen
On Aug 22, 8:34 pm, Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> wrote:
> http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>
> Go, Frank, go!
>
> kt
>
> --http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
Very nice, hope to see it published soon with more widgets.
Ken Tilton wrote:
> http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
it is better to use the native controls of the platform, e.g. like in this
framework:
http://www.wxcl-project.org/language/en/
because the end-user is more familiar with it and there are no suprises and
learning curves for look and feel.
Maybe someone wants to demonstrate how to use wxCL with Cells?
--
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> >http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>
> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, e.g. like in this
> framework:
>
> http://www.wxcl-project.org/language/en/
>
> because the end-user is more familiar with it and there are no suprises and
> learning curves for look and feel.
>
> Maybe someone wants to demonstrate how to use wxCL with Cells?
>
> --
> Frank Buss, ····@frank-buss.dehttp://www.frank-buss.de,http://www.it4-systems.de
>From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
want variations, they want something special. I know that your million
serie jeans is high quality, but every other guy in the street wears
them. If you make your framework look good I would see WOW, even
before start using it's features. I would feel that you take time and
effort making something special, a custom one, not like those hordes
of guys who just grabbed new .net/gtk/whatever widgets and make
another boring crup.
The best comparation is probably with custom build products like
custom cars , custom bikes (remember occ http://www.orangecountychoppers.com/),
there is demand for custom metaloworks that fires up blacksmithing .
People want to feel special. So go for it Frank I really like your
analog retro look.
Slobodan Blazeski <·················@gmail.com> writes:
> On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
>> Ken Tilton wrote:
>> >http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>>
>> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
>> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
>> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, e.g. like in this
>> framework:
>>
>> http://www.wxcl-project.org/language/en/
>>
>> because the end-user is more familiar with it and there are no suprises and
>> learning curves for look and feel.
>>
>> Maybe someone wants to demonstrate how to use wxCL with Cells?
>>
>> --
>> Frank Buss, ····@frank-buss.dehttp://www.frank-buss.de,http://www.it4-systems.de
>
>>From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
> feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
> properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
> egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
Yeah. But common frameworks are well-tested, and usually require less
debugging.
Also, visual design is really hard to get right. The issue is similar
to making homebrew custom fonts or Lisp dialects: their developers
want to address some minor deficiency, or create something that looks
cool and different, but then they don't realize the amazing amount of
experience and man-hours that went into the well-established projects.
For example, on the Cello Widgets page, the meters are nice but the
buttons look like the computer interface on federation starship
Voyager, except for the lack of vertical & horizontal alignment.
> The best comparation is probably with custom build products like
> custom cars , custom bikes (remember occ
> http://www.orangecountychoppers.com/), there is demand for custom
> metaloworks that fires up blacksmithing . People want to feel
> special. So go for it Frank I really like your analog retro look.
Recently, I wanted to build a custom bicycle and started to learn TIG
welding. But when, after many trials, I managed to weld two pipes
together so that they survived a blow with a large hammer, I asked
myself the question: do I want the frame to break under me when a
large truck is approaching the intersection from the left?
Tamas
Nobody said that is going to be easy, custom work is very hard to get
right, most of them look like some kiddo do it in their free time
between school and playing playstation. Especially the artistic feel
is very important. Still when you do it right you have a selling
point, Apple is fine example of it, else why would I use a buggy beta
browser under windows, or Quicktime player which has a problem to fit
the movie to the screen. But they both look great and stay. The Vista
is another functionality nemesis but it looks good, so I ended
installing Vista for Xp pack. Beauty is contagious if your
competitot app looks better than your guess which one I'm gonna
download to try it first. Unless he's app it's awfull I might not even
look at your app, though it might be better in functional terms.
If you need something mission critical go for the standard & most
reliable solution, but I wouldn't get killed if my browser crushes or
eat my google group post. The market is overfloated with products who
have simigliar features, so people might not even give a try to your
app if it's like just another serial crup. The custom made is not a
silver bullet either, unless you done it right your custom will look
amataeroush. By doing it right means spending some more time building
& debugging it, hire a real artist to design your icons, menus, some
cool background and pics etc. All of those require a lot of work and
probably money so if you aren't ready don't stick with your visual
studio / gtk / whatever as good design is hard to get , but people
recognise it immediately.
Gui interfaces made from programmers are usually boring like death or
ugly like sin. If you can't make a good looking custom design, stick
with boring it makes you look professional , whatever that means.
Bobi
Tamas Papp <······@gmail.com> writes:
> For example, on the Cello Widgets page, the meters are nice but the
> buttons look like the computer interface on federation starship
> Voyager, except for the lack of vertical & horizontal alignment.
Glad you recognized the design goal for the buttons ;-) Oh, yeah, and
imagine, vertical and horizontal alignment will be in there. You can
then even choose what kind of alignment you want.
>
> Recently, I wanted to build a custom bicycle and started to learn TIG
> welding. But when, after many trials, I managed to weld two pipes
> together so that they survived a blow with a large hammer, I asked
> myself the question: do I want the frame to break under me when a
> large truck is approaching the intersection from the left?
Not everybody is capable of creating something that stands even a
light test... ;-)
Well, at least you know it will break. You know the weaknesses of your
own "product". On NIH products you have either to test infinetly or
trust the marketing blah...
I am going to control an amplifier that uses more than 3000 Volts and
2 Amperes of electrical voltage and current. I do want to know where
things will break - if any.
It's a hell lot of fun to do this stuff. Cello and Cells actually Just
Work thanks to Kenny's quality in hacking and in support. That's what
makes me even alone capable of hacking widgets in a couple of days
(and others are of course even faster than me). Sweet!
Frank
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
Frank,
How is everything? Saw this on c.l.l. We agreed on, what?, 25 euros per
endorsement? Confirm and I'll get that into your PayPal.
Cheers, kenny
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG wrote:
> Tamas Papp <······@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>For example, on the Cello Widgets page, the meters are nice but the
>>buttons look like the computer interface on federation starship
>>Voyager, except for the lack of vertical & horizontal alignment.
>
>
> Glad you recognized the design goal for the buttons ;-) Oh, yeah, and
> imagine, vertical and horizontal alignment will be in there. You can
> then even choose what kind of alignment you want.
>
>
>>Recently, I wanted to build a custom bicycle and started to learn TIG
>>welding. But when, after many trials, I managed to weld two pipes
>>together so that they survived a blow with a large hammer, I asked
>>myself the question: do I want the frame to break under me when a
>>large truck is approaching the intersection from the left?
>
>
> Not everybody is capable of creating something that stands even a
> light test... ;-)
>
> Well, at least you know it will break. You know the weaknesses of your
> own "product". On NIH products you have either to test infinetly or
> trust the marketing blah...
>
> I am going to control an amplifier that uses more than 3000 Volts and
> 2 Amperes of electrical voltage and current. I do want to know where
> things will break - if any.
>
> It's a hell lot of fun to do this stuff. Cello and Cells actually Just
> Work thanks to Kenny's quality in hacking and in support. That's what
> makes me even alone capable of hacking widgets in a couple of days
> (and others are of course even faster than me). Sweet!
>
> Frank
>
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> writes:
> Frank,
>
> How is everything? Saw this on c.l.l. We agreed on, what?, 25 euros
> per endorsement? Confirm and I'll get that into your PayPal.
>
> Cheers, kenny
Yeah, everything's fine over here. Hacking away and having fun. I
meanwhile updated my website - new top picture for Cello Widgets and
the bargraph stuff.
I am favoring payment in kind - a Balvenie Double Wood
http://www.balvenie.com/ is fine enough ;-)
Hope to keep up the Cello traffic!
Cheers
Frank
In article <··············@pcsde001.de.goenninger.net>,
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org> wrote:
> Tamas Papp <······@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > For example, on the Cello Widgets page, the meters are nice but the
> > buttons look like the computer interface on federation starship
> > Voyager, except for the lack of vertical & horizontal alignment.
>
> Glad you recognized the design goal for the buttons ;-) Oh, yeah, and
> imagine, vertical and horizontal alignment will be in there. You can
> then even choose what kind of alignment you want.
>
> >
> > Recently, I wanted to build a custom bicycle and started to learn TIG
> > welding. But when, after many trials, I managed to weld two pipes
> > together so that they survived a blow with a large hammer, I asked
> > myself the question: do I want the frame to break under me when a
> > large truck is approaching the intersection from the left?
>
> Not everybody is capable of creating something that stands even a
> light test... ;-)
>
> Well, at least you know it will break. You know the weaknesses of your
> own "product". On NIH products you have either to test infinetly or
> trust the marketing blah...
>
> I am going to control an amplifier that uses more than 3000 Volts and
> 2 Amperes of electrical voltage and current. I do want to know where
> things will break - if any.
>
> It's a hell lot of fun to do this stuff. Cello and Cells actually Just
> Work thanks to Kenny's quality in hacking and in support. That's what
> makes me even alone capable of hacking widgets in a couple of days
> (and others are of course even faster than me). Sweet!
>
> Frank
See here pictures of old-school gauges:
http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/loops.html
http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/meters.jpg
http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/debug.jpg
Old InterLisp stuff...
--
http://lispm.dyndns.org
Rainer Joswig wrote:
> In article <··············@pcsde001.de.goenninger.net>,
> Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Tamas Papp <······@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>For example, on the Cello Widgets page, the meters are nice but the
>>>buttons look like the computer interface on federation starship
>>>Voyager, except for the lack of vertical & horizontal alignment.
>>
>>Glad you recognized the design goal for the buttons ;-) Oh, yeah, and
>>imagine, vertical and horizontal alignment will be in there. You can
>>then even choose what kind of alignment you want.
>>
>>
>>>Recently, I wanted to build a custom bicycle and started to learn TIG
>>>welding. But when, after many trials, I managed to weld two pipes
>>>together so that they survived a blow with a large hammer, I asked
>>>myself the question: do I want the frame to break under me when a
>>>large truck is approaching the intersection from the left?
>>
>>Not everybody is capable of creating something that stands even a
>>light test... ;-)
>>
>>Well, at least you know it will break. You know the weaknesses of your
>>own "product". On NIH products you have either to test infinetly or
>>trust the marketing blah...
>>
>>I am going to control an amplifier that uses more than 3000 Volts and
>>2 Amperes of electrical voltage and current. I do want to know where
>>things will break - if any.
>>
>>It's a hell lot of fun to do this stuff. Cello and Cells actually Just
>>Work thanks to Kenny's quality in hacking and in support. That's what
>>makes me even alone capable of hacking widgets in a couple of days
>>(and others are of course even faster than me). Sweet!
>>
>>Frank
>
>
> See here pictures of old-school gauges:
>
> http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/loops.html
> http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/meters.jpg
> http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/debug.jpg
>
> Old InterLisp stuff...
>
Way cool for its day, but those jaggies...ewwwww!
The good news I am no longer in last place in graphic design skill.
kzo
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
Rainer Joswig <······@lisp.de> writes:
> See here pictures of old-school gauges:
>
> http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/loops.html
> http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/meters.jpg
> http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/debug.jpg
>
> Old InterLisp stuff...
Cool - food for thought/widgets hacking... Ok, back to the other Emacs
buffer... ;-)
Frank
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG wrote:
> Cool - food for thought/widgets hacking... Ok, back to the other Emacs
> buffer... ;-)
I like bargraphs. This is the device for which I'm helping to develop the
GUI:
http://www.rtw.info/english/news/SC_30960.html
It depends for what you need your amplifier, but maybe a logarithmic scale
is a good idea, e.g. if you want to amplify audio signals. And with a
bargraph you don't need buttons any more, but you can use a slider, which
can be moved with the mouse.
--
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss wrote:
> Frank Goenninger DG1SBG wrote:
>
>
>>Cool - food for thought/widgets hacking... Ok, back to the other Emacs
>>buffer... ;-)
>
>
> I like bargraphs. This is the device for which I'm helping to develop the
> GUI:
>
> http://www.rtw.info/english/news/SC_30960.html
>
> It depends for what you need your amplifier, but maybe a logarithmic scale
> is a good idea, e.g. if you want to amplify audio signals. And with a
> bargraph you don't need buttons any more, but you can use a slider, which
> can be moved with the mouse.
>
Did someone say "sliders"?
http://www.tilton-technology.com/cello-shot-03.jpg
kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> writes:
> Frank Buss wrote:
>>
>> I like bargraphs. This is the device for which I'm helping to develop the
>> GUI:
>>
>> http://www.rtw.info/english/news/SC_30960.html
>>
Ahem - did someone say bargraphs?
Here it is:
http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets_files/analog-meter-6.tiff
The code added is:
(make-kid 'ix-dot-grid
:md-name :simple-bargraph
:rows 1
:dot-color +RED+
:dot-size 10
:value (c? (value (fm-other :anode-voltage)))
:px 30
:py (downs (upts 300)))
Simple enough? I think so... Oh, changing the shape of the bargraphs
elements is a two-liner.
I am now working on a segmented bargraph. This one gets three sections
with green, yellow, and red elements. Of course this is all
dynamically set/displayed. Questions?
;-)
Frank
--
Frank Goenninger
http://www.goenninger.net
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG wrote:
> Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> writes:
>
>
>>Frank Buss wrote:
>>
>>>I like bargraphs. This is the device for which I'm helping to develop the
>>>GUI:
>>>
>>>http://www.rtw.info/english/news/SC_30960.html
>>>
>
>
> Ahem - did someone say bargraphs?
> Here it is:
>
> http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets_files/analog-meter-6.tiff
>
> The code added is:
>
> (make-kid 'ix-dot-grid
> :md-name :simple-bargraph
> :rows 1
> :dot-color +RED+
> :dot-size 10
> :value (c? (value (fm-other :anode-voltage)))
> :px 30
> :py (downs (upts 300)))
>
> Simple enough? I think so... Oh, changing the shape of the bargraphs
> elements is a two-liner.
>
> I am now working on a segmented bargraph. This one gets three sections
> with green, yellow, and red elements. Of course this is all
> dynamically set/displayed. Questions?
Yeah. How the hell were you able to create a new kind of widget without
defining a new class? I don't get it, everyone knows OO failed at object
reuse. I think you need a defclass somewhere.
kenny
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
Frank Buss <··@frank-buss.de> writes:
> I like bargraphs. This is the device for which I'm helping to develop the
> GUI:
>
> http://www.rtw.info/english/news/SC_30960.html
Cool display.
>
> It depends for what you need your amplifier, but maybe a logarithmic scale
> is a good idea, e.g. if you want to amplify audio signals.
It is a self-made ("homebrew") Radio Frequency amplifier working in
the 1 to 30 MHz frequency range. It uses a GU-84b tetrode tube running
at 3250 Volts of anode voltage and almost 1.2 Amperes of anode
current.
The voltage and current displays will be of linear display type.
> And with a
> bargraph you don't need buttons any more, but you can use a slider, which
> can be moved with the mouse.
While being perfectly valid for some use cases this actually does not
my requirements. Too much uncertainty / low resolution / probability
to not grab the slider when handling lethal voltages.
I have to just use a maximum of 5 different keys (function keys F4 and
F6, +, -, 0) to control the amplifier. Ease of use is critical.
And yes, the real UI for the RCU (remote control unit) does look
different than what I posted on the web page so far.
Thanks for the interesting link, Frank!
Cheers
Frank
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
On Aug 23, 1:50 pm, Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org>
wrote:
> Cool - food for thought/widgets hacking... Ok, back to the other Emacs
> buffer... ;-)
>
Here is a little more inspiration:
(Select "game" near the top on the left sidebar)
http://www.gone2thedogs.com/
Turn the "control speed" knob quickly and observe the gauge.
-Ken
Ken McKee <········@bmrc.mc.duke.edu> writes:
> On Aug 23, 1:50 pm, Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Cool - food for thought/widgets hacking... Ok, back to the other Emacs
>> buffer... ;-)
>>
>
> Here is a little more inspiration:
> (Select "game" near the top on the left sidebar)
> http://www.gone2thedogs.com/
>
> Turn the "control speed" knob quickly and observe the gauge.
> -Ken
Way cool! Love it! Amazing animation... bookmarked!
Cheers
Frank
--
Frank Goenninger
frgo(at)mac(dot)com
"Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
really know ..."
On Aug 24, 8:15 pm, Ken McKee <········@bmrc.mc.duke.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 23, 1:50 pm, Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Cool - food for thought/widgets hacking... Ok, back to the other Emacs
> > buffer... ;-)
>
> Here is a little more inspiration:
> (Select "game" near the top on the left sidebar)http://www.gone2thedogs.com/
>
> Turn the "control speed" knob quickly and observe the gauge.
> -Ken
Bookmarked, seems that I'm a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Malamute
:)
On Aug 23, 7:28 pm, Rainer Joswig <······@lisp.de> wrote:
> In article <··············@pcsde001.de.goenninger.net>,
> Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tamas Papp <······@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > > For example, on the Cello Widgets page, the meters are nice but the
> > > buttons look like the computer interface on federation starship
> > > Voyager, except for the lack of vertical & horizontal alignment.
>
> > Glad you recognized the design goal for the buttons ;-) Oh, yeah, and
> > imagine, vertical and horizontal alignment will be in there. You can
> > then even choose what kind of alignment you want.
>
> > > Recently, I wanted to build a custom bicycle and started to learn TIG
> > > welding. But when, after many trials, I managed to weld two pipes
> > > together so that they survived a blow with a large hammer, I asked
> > > myself the question: do I want the frame to break under me when a
> > > large truck is approaching the intersection from the left?
>
> > Not everybody is capable of creating something that stands even a
> > light test... ;-)
>
> > Well, at least you know it will break. You know the weaknesses of your
> > own "product". On NIH products you have either to test infinetly or
> > trust the marketing blah...
>
> > I am going to control an amplifier that uses more than 3000 Volts and
> > 2 Amperes of electrical voltage and current. I do want to know where
> > things will break - if any.
>
> > It's a hell lot of fun to do this stuff. Cello and Cells actually Just
> > Work thanks to Kenny's quality in hacking and in support. That's what
> > makes me even alone capable of hacking widgets in a couple of days
> > (and others are of course even faster than me). Sweet!
>
> > Frank
>
> See here pictures of old-school gauges:
>
> http://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/loops.htmlhttp://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/meters.jpghttp://www2.parc.com/istl/members/stefik/images/debug.jpg
>
> Old InterLisp stuff...
>
> --http://lispm.dyndns.org- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Freaky, thanks for sharing.
On Aug 23, 7:09 pm, Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <·············@nomail.org>
wrote:
> Tamas Papp <······@gmail.com> writes:
> > For example, on the Cello Widgets page, the meters are nice but the
> > buttons look like the computer interface on federation starship
> > Voyager, except for the lack of vertical & horizontal alignment.
>
> Glad you recognized the design goal for the buttons ;-) Oh, yeah, and
> imagine, vertical and horizontal alignment will be in there. You can
> then even choose what kind of alignment you want.
>
>
>
> > Recently, I wanted to build a custom bicycle and started to learn TIG
> > welding. But when, after many trials, I managed to weld two pipes
> > together so that they survived a blow with a large hammer, I asked
> > myself the question: do I want the frame to break under me when a
> > large truck is approaching the intersection from the left?
>
> Not everybody is capable of creating something that stands even a
> light test... ;-)
>
> Well, at least you know it will break. You know the weaknesses of your
> own "product". On NIH products you have either to test infinetly or
> trust the marketing blah...
>
> I am going to control an amplifier that uses more than 3000 Volts and
> 2 Amperes of electrical voltage and current. I do want to know where
> things will break - if any.
>
> It's a hell lot of fun to do this stuff. Cello and Cells actually Just
> Work thanks to Kenny's quality in hacking and in support. That's what
> makes me even alone capable of hacking widgets in a couple of days
> (and others are of course even faster than me). Sweet!
>
> Frank
>
> --
>
> Frank Goenninger
>
> frgo(at)mac(dot)com
>
> "Don't ask me! I haven't been reading comp.lang.lisp long enough to
> really know ..."
Nice start Frank, just keep going, hope you'll share the code soon.
I wanted to make some 3d gui on top of OpenGl but all freaken world
seems to turned to web UI, they want to see everything from their
pocketpcs and cell phones. But later, who knows.
Are your widgets skinnable? Like changing the look wihout touching
functionality. I would really like to have a real retro looking gui,
something with wood background, bargraph like coming from the cars
from the 60 speedmeter, potentiometers like old clocks, buttons from
30s radio.
Oh enough dreaming I got to work.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:51:51 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
<·················@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
>> Ken Tilton wrote:
>> >http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>>
>> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
>> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
>> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, ...
>>
>From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
>feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
>properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
>egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
>want variations, they want something special.
I've found exactly the opposite - with the exception of entertainment
and custom industrial control applications, I've found that people
almost invariably want to stick with familiar controls.
George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address
George Neuner wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:51:51 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
> <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>>>
>>>Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
>>>meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
>>>it is better to use the native controls of the platform, ...
>>>
>
>>From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
>
>>feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
>>properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
>>egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
>>want variations, they want something special.
>
>
> I've found exactly the opposite - with the exception of entertainment
> and custom industrial control applications, I've found that people
> almost invariably want to stick with familiar controls.
The problem is that GUIs can be much better than your father's GUI
controls permit. They must die.
Speaking of dying, I have to do emacs for a bit and I am delighted to
see it is worse than I thought. Even with the ACL documentation I cannot
figure out how to pass an option to lisp. What the %#^$ is wrong with:
(fi:comon-lisp "*common-lisp*" "/home/kenny"
"/usr/allegro/acl80.64/alisp"
'("-I ~kenny/MyImage.dxl")
"localhost")
Thx, kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
> George Neuner wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:51:51 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
>> <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
>>>> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like
>>>> buttons,
>>>> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, ...
>>>>
>>
>>> From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
>>
>>
>>> feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
>>> properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
>>> egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
>>> want variations, they want something special.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've found exactly the opposite - with the exception of entertainment
>> and custom industrial control applications, I've found that people
>> almost invariably want to stick with familiar controls.
>
>
> The problem is that GUIs can be much better than your father's GUI
> controls permit. They must die.
>
> Speaking of dying, I have to do emacs for a bit and I am delighted to
> see it is worse than I thought. Even with the ACL documentation I cannot
> figure out how to pass an option to lisp. What the %#^$ is wrong with:
>
> (fi:comon-lisp "*common-lisp*" "/home/kenny"
> "/usr/allegro/acl80.64/alisp"
> '("-I ~kenny/MyImage.dxl")
> "localhost")
Ah, I see I can add the image file name after the localhost arg, will
try that when the Linux system reboots. PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!!
Congratulations to RMS and all you FSF lemmings for strangling software
development half to death.
kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
Madhu wrote:
> * Ken Tilton <···················@newsfe12.lga> :
> |>
> |> (fi:comon-lisp "*common-lisp*" "/home/kenny"
> |> "/usr/allegro/acl80.64/alisp"
> |> '("-I ~kenny/MyImage.dxl")
>
> On UNIX that'd typically be TWO arguments: '("-I" "/home/kenny/MyImage.dxl")
> Also note you cannot expect your shell fairy to expand ~kenny here
> as it may not be invoked at all.
Cool. Thanks. I got it going as the next param to the fi:common-lisp
function, but will remember this if it comes up again.
>
> However as you found out the lisp image is handled specially by eli,
> which does magically expand "~kenny" if you supply the image name where
> it is expected.
>
> |> "localhost")
> |
> | Ah, I see I can add the image file name after the localhost arg, will
> | try that when the Linux system reboots. PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!!
>
> Maybe you should try SLIME ? (PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA NOT)
Folks who know both say Franz's workalike is better. I know nothing,
just do what people tell me.
thx again.
ken
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
In article <···················@newsfe12.lga>,
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>
>>
>
...
>Ah, I see I can add the image file name after the localhost arg, will
>try that when the Linux system reboots. PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!!
>
>Congratulations to RMS and all you FSF lemmings for strangling software
>development half to death.
>
>kt
For this naive lurker, please explain that "strangling ..." belief.
(Especially since the post to its "right" (nor any others?) seem
to complain. And also since if anyone's opinion is typically
very worthwhile, Ken's is!)
Thanks!
David
David Combs wrote:
> In article <···················@newsfe12.lga>,
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>
>>>
> ...
>
>>Ah, I see I can add the image file name after the localhost arg, will
>>try that when the Linux system reboots. PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!!
>>
>>Congratulations to RMS and all you FSF lemmings for strangling software
>>development half to death.
>>
>>kt
>
>
> For this naive lurker, please explain that "strangling ..." belief.
Unix is crap, Linux is crap, and there is no money to be made in
software tools so everyone is using crap tools on a crap OS and the only
ones doing so are need-to-get-a-life losers who can't code anyway. All
the good developers gave up on GCC and Emacs and went to bartending
school and are just hoping the Free Service Foundation does not convince
everyone they should not have to tip to get their pints. At the exact
same time the Soviet Union was running up the white flag on the idea
that anything good ever came out of system without individual rewards
for individual effort.... well, we'll cover this in my Kennynote Address.
kt
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"We are what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
On 2007-09-23 03:11:47 +0100, Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> said:
> Unix is crap, Linux is crap, and there is no money to be made in
> software tools so everyone is using crap tools on a crap OS and the
> only ones doing so are need-to-get-a-life losers who can't code anyway.
> All the good developers gave up on GCC and Emacs and went to bartending
> school and are just hoping the Free Service Foundation does not
> convince everyone they should not have to tip to get their pints. At
> the exact same time the Soviet Union was running up the white flag on
> the idea that anything good ever came out of system without individual
> rewards for individual effort.... well, we'll cover this in my
> Kennynote Address.
There is some truth to the "we want all the rights but do not
want to accept any of the associated duties" mentality in the
"free sofware" world, it would be enlightnening to learn about
aletrnatives that work.
Obviously, the failure of greed and hubris to achieve anything
of value doesn't mean there is even a single alternative. When
both institutions and the market fail, what else is there left?
Doing your own thing. That's what's left. And stopping caring
or whining. Nobody listens anyway: *my* prejudices are always
going to be stronger than *yours* :-(
--
JFB
Ken Tilton <···········@optonline.net> writes:
>
> Unix is crap, Linux is crap, and there is no money to be made in
> software tools so everyone is using crap tools on a crap OS and the
> only ones doing so are need-to-get-a-life losers who can't code
> anyway. All the good developers gave up on GCC and Emacs and went to
> bartending school and are just hoping the Free Service Foundation does
> not convince everyone they should not have to tip to get their
> pints. At the exact same time the Soviet Union was running up the
> white flag on the idea that anything good ever came out of system
> without individual rewards for individual effort.... well, we'll cover
> this in my Kennynote Address.
Developers of free software _are_ individually rewarded for individual
effort: whatever they had a problem with is fixed or improved or both.
This is why emacs rocks so much.
Unfortunately, this means that minor tweaks are more common than massive
redesigns. This is why emacs sucks so much.
Still, just as it's better to be poor in the 21st century than to be
rich in the first, it's better to use free software than its proprietary
equivalent.
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
When the revolution comes, we're going to need a longer wall.
--Andy Cunningham
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:50:50 -0400, Ken Tilton
<···········@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>George Neuner wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:51:51 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
>> <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>>>>
>>>>Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
>>>>meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
>>>>it is better to use the native controls of the platform, ...
>>>>
>>
>>>From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
>>
>>>feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
>>>properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
>>>egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
>>>want variations, they want something special.
>>
>>
>> I've found exactly the opposite - with the exception of entertainment
>> and custom industrial control applications, I've found that people
>> almost invariably want to stick with familiar controls.
>
>The problem is that GUIs can be much better than your father's GUI
>controls permit. They must die.
I agree that GUIs can be improved, but to be generally accepted the
improvements should be incremental - not wholesale changes.
George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address
On Aug 23, 9:44 pm, George Neuner <·········@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:51:51 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
>
> <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
> >> Ken Tilton wrote:
> >> >http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>
> >> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
> >> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
> >> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, ...
>
> >From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
> >feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
> >properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
> >egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
> >want variations, they want something special.
>
> I've found exactly the opposite - with the exception of entertainment
> and custom industrial control applications, I've found that people
> almost invariably want to stick with familiar controls.
>
> George
I think you misunderstand me, people like the ability to change the
visual look of things, without really changing the behavior. I always
get angry when some some idiot try to get creative by switching
something standard with custom only because he wants his app to be
different.
For example everybody know that closing the window in every windows is
red with white cross located in top right corner of the window. If you
put in down in the left side you piss me off really bad, but if you
keep it in the same position and change only the visual with something
that I could understand that it does what i expect it does that I
would be pleasantly surprised, look at winamp for a great highly
popular example, even media player 11 has a black field, that turn red
when you hoover it. Looks matter.
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:42:07 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
<·················@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Aug 23, 9:44 pm, George Neuner <·········@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:51:51 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
>>
>> <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
>> >> Ken Tilton wrote:
>> >> >http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>>
>> >> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
>> >> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
>> >> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, ...
>>
>> >From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
>> >feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
>> >properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
>> >egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
>> >want variations, they want something special.
>>
>> I've found exactly the opposite - with the exception of entertainment
>> and custom industrial control applications, I've found that people
>> almost invariably want to stick with familiar controls.
>>
>> George
>
>I think you misunderstand me, people like the ability to change the
>visual look of things, without really changing the behavior. I always
>get angry when some some idiot try to get creative by switching
>something standard with custom only because he wants his app to be
>different.
No I understand. I said something similar to Kenny in another post.
My point, which you seem to agree with, is that the designer
drastically changing the look or behavior of the control, just to be
different, is a bad thing.
Letting the user customize the interface is an entirely different
issue - I generally support it in the single user case but I have
reservations when there are (or may be) multiple users -
which is much more common than many developers think.
Extreme example: I've worked on kiosk industrial applications with
requirements to adapt the user interface and functionality to the
capabilities of the current operator (the apps had their own notion of
"users" separate from any OS). It would not be unusual for a line
supervisor to set up jobs for the next shift or a QA person to monitor
and tweak the current process parameters or an IT person to download
the logs all while the program is monitoring/controlling some
manufacturing process and the normal operator is going about her
business ... at virtually any moment any user could log in to perform
any allowed function and the program would immediately have to adjust
the GUI accordingly.
Getting such capabilities right is quite hard - particularly while
performing (sometimes several) asynchronous, hard real time tasks in
addition to handling whatever the console operator happens to be
doing. Reliability was paramount - no crashes or damage to controlled
devices allowed regardless of what the operator tried to do (in some
industries the operators are day laborers who will use any excuse for
a break - including sabotage).
It's not terribly difficult to provide different skins for an
application, but it becomes complicated when the skins serve very
different purposes and it's even harder if the users are allowed much
flexibility to customize things. Particularly in an industrial
setting, there is danger that someone might look at a customized
display and not be able to immediately interpret or operate it.
Obviously I'm biased by my experience, but because of it when I design
a program I always try to look beyond the intended use and anticipate
how the program is likely to be abused in the real world.
George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address
On Aug 24, 10:52 pm, George Neuner <·········@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:42:07 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
>
>
>
>
>
> <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 23, 9:44 pm, George Neuner <·········@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:51:51 -0700, Slobodan Blazeski
>
> >> <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Frank Buss <····@frank-buss.de> wrote:
> >> >> Ken Tilton wrote:
> >> >> >http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>
> >> >> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
> >> >> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like buttons,
> >> >> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, ...
>
> >> >From usability point of view you're absolutely right, native look &
> >> >feel are important, but custom framework have their own virtues *when-
> >> >properly* done. The problem with natives is they all look like egg to
> >> >egg, something coming from the factory and boring to death, people
> >> >want variations, they want something special.
>
> >> I've found exactly the opposite - with the exception of entertainment
> >> and custom industrial control applications, I've found that people
> >> almost invariably want to stick with familiar controls.
>
> >> George
>
> >I think you misunderstand me, people like the ability to change the
> >visual look of things, without really changing the behavior. I always
> >get angry when some some idiot try to get creative by switching
> >something standard with custom only because he wants his app to be
> >different.
>
> No I understand. I said something similar to Kenny in another post.
> My point, which you seem to agree with, is that the designer
> drastically changing the look or behavior of the control, just to be
> different, is a bad thing.
>
> Letting the user customize the interface is an entirely different
> issue - I generally support it in the single user case but I have
> reservations when there are (or may be) multiple users -
> which is much more common than many developers think.
>
> Extreme example: I've worked on kiosk industrial applications with
> requirements to adapt the user interface and functionality to the
> capabilities of the current operator (the apps had their own notion of
> "users" separate from any OS). It would not be unusual for a line
> supervisor to set up jobs for the next shift or a QA person to monitor
> and tweak the current process parameters or an IT person to download
> the logs all while the program is monitoring/controlling some
> manufacturing process and the normal operator is going about her
> business ... at virtually any moment any user could log in to perform
> any allowed function and the program would immediately have to adjust
> the GUI accordingly.
>
> Getting such capabilities right is quite hard - particularly while
> performing (sometimes several) asynchronous, hard real time tasks in
> addition to handling whatever the console operator happens to be
> doing. Reliability was paramount - no crashes or damage to controlled
> devices allowed regardless of what the operator tried to do (in some
> industries the operators are day laborers who will use any excuse for
> a break - including sabotage).
>
> It's not terribly difficult to provide different skins for an
> application, but it becomes complicated when the skins serve very
> different purposes and it's even harder if the users are allowed much
> flexibility to customize things. Particularly in an industrial
> setting, there is danger that someone might look at a customized
> display and not be able to immediately interpret or operate it.
>
> Obviously I'm biased by my experience, but because of it when I design
> a program I always try to look beyond the intended use and anticipate
> how the program is likely to be abused in the real world.
>
> George
> --
> for email reply remove "/" from address- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
When I work for somebody else I want to keep staff as simple as it
can, less parts less bugs, when there's a written spec I want to limit
myself to the bare essentials, actually sometimes I even manage to
remove some stupid featureses, except that I sometimes make something
more than wanted (and usually payed) if that interests me and I plan
to use that know-how & code in my future projects. Once I implemented
a quite powerfull search capability in boring ophthalmologist
software.
I don't have so many apps under my belt to make a strong case , and
especially I don't have nothing in mission critical market, but in
making something for a mass market I still want to have a good look
selling point.
cheers
bobi
Frank Buss wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
>>http://web.mac.com/frgo/iWeb/frgo-web-presence/Cello%20Widgets.html
>
>
> Nice, but why another GUI framework?
What part of NIH do you not understand? No one uses Lisp, they write
their own, usually atop an even slower more bloated language like Java
or Flash. No one uses Cells, they write their own. But since you ask:
(a) This one has Cells
(b) This one has OpenGL, OpenAL, Snack, FTGL, and more
(d) When Kenny creates an X, all other Xes become "another X"
> For custom instruments, like the
> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea,...
Aw, gee, thanks. You mean it is Ok if we keep on doing this?
> but for standard elements, like buttons,
> it is better to use the native controls of the platform, e.g. like in this
> framework:
>
> http://www.wxcl-project.org/language/en/
Yes, I think this is why the Interweb never caught on....hang on.
>
> because the end-user is more familiar with it and there are no suprises and
> learning curves for look and feel.
Still back in 1984 trying to figure out how to wean people off
typewriters? You sound like someone who bet the ranch on a native GUI.
>
> Maybe someone wants to demonstrate how to use wxCL with Cells?
>
"When the wise hear the Way, they practice it diligently. When the
mediocre hear of the Way, they doubt it. When the foolish hear of the
Way, they laugh out loud..."
You started your GUI project with Cells and then took them out. We need
a new category below "foolish".
:)
kenny
--
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
"Algebra is the metaphysics of arithmetic." - John Ray
"As long as algebra is taught in school,
there will be prayer in school." - Cokie Roberts
"Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra."
- Fran Lebowitz
"I'm an algebra liar. I figure two good lies make a positive."
- Tim Allen
(message (Hello 'Frank)
(you :wrote :on '(Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:18:51 +0200))
(
FB> Nice, but why another GUI framework? For custom instruments, like the
FB> meters, OpenGL may be a good idea, but for standard elements, like
FB> buttons, it is better to use the native controls of the platform,
FB> because the end-user is more familiar with it and there are no suprises
FB> and learning curves for look and feel.
it depends what's the goal. if that's some "usual" app, OpenGL GUI would be
freaky.
but there might be a need for a custom OpenGL UIs -- for programs doing some
visual stuff with OpenGL: visualization, effects, games. can be used in
media players..
a more Lisp-related would be some kewl 3d s-expressions visualization :).
)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
"choose no life")