Hi All,
I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
Javascript to script webpages.
You can check it out here:
http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:12 -0700, dustmop wrote:
> Hi All,
> I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
> a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
> Javascript to script webpages.
>
> You can check it out here:
> http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>
> This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
> unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
> enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
> Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
> http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>
> For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
> crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
> be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
Then for the version after that, you just have to convince millions of
people to install the extension ;)
On Apr 5, 5:09 am, Brian Adkins <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:12 -0700, dustmop wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
> > a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
> > Javascript to script webpages.
>
> > You can check it out here:
> >http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
You're site is unaccesible, but i like your idea very much.
>
> > This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
> > unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
> > enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
> > Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
> >http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>
> > For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
> > crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
> > be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
>
> Then for the version after that, you just have to convince millions of
> people to install the extension ;)- Hide quoted text -
>
No you don't, i already had something similiar in mind for my
project, i plan a client server approach app , and application
working
through browser , but i also want to incorporate few security
constraints
in the browser. Plugin the browser , especially the one that works
with lisp
could make my life lot easier.
bobi
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Kamen Lisp - Firefox extension to script webpages with CL
Date:
Message-ID: <5Z%Qh.1254$QP7.870@newsfe12.lga>
Brian Adkins wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:12 -0700, dustmop wrote:
>
>
>>Hi All,
>>I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
>>a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
>>Javascript to script webpages.
>>
>>You can check it out here:
>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>>
>>This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
>>unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
>>enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
>>Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>>
>>For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
>>crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
>>be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
>
>
> Then for the version after that, you just have to convince millions of
> people to install the extension ;)
>
I do not understand this comment. I thought dustmop's job was to make
the install easy. It is the job of the web site based on Kamen to entice
people to do the install, possibly by offering free money.
I mean, Macromedia never got me to install Flash, the snowboard
equipment site did. And they did not even offer me free money.
Did I miss something?
kzo
--
"As long as algebra is taught in school,
there will be prayer in school." - Cokie Roberts
"Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra."
- Fran Lebowitz
"I'm an algebra liar. I figure two good lies make a positive."
- Tim Allen
"Algebra is the metaphysics of arithmetic." - John Ray
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
Yes, you miss the fact, that such site would be Firefox Only Site. No
IE. And IE still has a lion share of web clients.
I would be much more intrested in lisp for flash. Now that will run
everywhere.
On Apr 5, 2:16 am, "Vagif Verdi" <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, you miss the fact, that such site would be Firefox Only Site. No
> IE. And IE still has a lion share of web clients.
> I would be much more intrested in lisp for flash. Now that will run
> everywhere.
Here is someone working on Lisp and Smalltalk in flash:
http://vistasmalltalk.wordpress.com/
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Kamen Lisp - Firefox extension to script webpages with CL
Date:
Message-ID: <db7Rh.4$%E1.2@newsfe12.lga>
Vagif Verdi wrote:
> Yes, you miss the fact, that such site would be Firefox Only Site. No
> IE. And IE still has a lion share of web clients.
Fair enough, but the comment was "download the extension".
The big win (if kamen is any good!) is having /any/ Lisp plugin/browser
combo for someone wanting to deliver a Web app.
What bothered me was the rain-on-parade quality of the response to
Kamen. Reminds me of producing a silver bullet (Cells) for you frickin
yobs and hearing absolutely nothing since but "the doc sucks" and "the
links are broken". And you wonder why you do not have more libs.
Speaking of which, S3 is way cooler than I originally realized. cl-s3
has changed my life! (Thx again, Sven.)
> I would be much more intrested in lisp for flash. Now that will run
> everywhere.
>
Absolutely. OpenLaszlo has a Cells-like component, btw, and does not
even require Flash, offers DHTML backends as well.
kzo
--
"As long as algebra is taught in school,
there will be prayer in school." - Cokie Roberts
"Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra."
- Fran Lebowitz
"I'm an algebra liar. I figure two good lies make a positive."
- Tim Allen
"Algebra is the metaphysics of arithmetic." - John Ray
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
On Apr 5, 3:53 pm, Ken Tilton <····@theoryyalgebra.com> wrote:
>
> What bothered me was the rain-on-parade quality of the response to
> Kamen. Reminds me of producing a silver bullet (Cells) for you frickin
> yobs and hearing absolutely nothing since but "the doc sucks" and "the
> links are broken". And you wonder why you do not have more libs.
>
Re : links are broken, Kamen got something alike :
> > > You can check it out here:
> > >http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>
> You're site is unaccesible, ...
About the docs I'm gonna sit and write some doc for Cells when
i'll steal some spare time, next month i hope.
Finally , you're my second favourite lisper ( Edi Weitz being first)
and i hope you stay with us selfish, ungrateful, whining, slave-
driving
son-of a beaches and write many more lisp libraries.
cheers
bobi
In article <························@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Vagif Verdi <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
: I would be much more intrested in lisp for flash. Now that will run
: everywhere.
Or a Lisp compiler that targets Javascript -- similar to the Google
Web Toolkit.
Greg
--
In socialism everyone can afford to buy the hypothetical bread that
would exist if someone would produce it. You may starve to death
but you'll have plenty of money.
-- John Rushing
On Apr 5, 11:28 am, ······@hiwaay.net (Greg Bacon) wrote:
[...]
> Or a Lisp compiler that targets Javascript -- similar to the Google
> Web Toolkit.
This already exists:
http://parenscript.org/
Cheers,
Pillsy
On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:07:10 -0700, Pillsy wrote:
> On Apr 5, 11:28 am, ······@hiwaay.net (Greg Bacon) wrote:
> [...]
>> Or a Lisp compiler that targets Javascript -- similar to the Google
>> Web Toolkit.
>
> This already exists:
>
> http://parenscript.org/
Very cool. Thanks for the post. I guess I should look through cliki.net
and/or cl-user.net more often...
>
> Cheers,
> Pillsy
On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 01:40:15 -0400, Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
> Brian Adkins wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:12 -0700, dustmop wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi All,
>>>I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
>>>a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
>>>Javascript to script webpages.
>>>
>>>You can check it out here:
>>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>>>
>>>This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
>>>unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
>>>enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
>>>Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
>>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>>>
>>>For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
>>>crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
>>>be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
>>
>>
>> Then for the version after that, you just have to convince millions of
>> people to install the extension ;)
>>
>
> I do not understand this comment. I thought dustmop's job was to make
> the install easy. It is the job of the web site based on Kamen to entice
> people to do the install, possibly by offering free money.
>
> I mean, Macromedia never got me to install Flash, the snowboard
> equipment site did. And they did not even offer me free money.
>
> Did I miss something?
Yes, user's are very reluctant to install plugins. Flash is very much the
exception, not the rule. At a previous company, we thought we could get
customers (just our customers, not the public) to install an Adobe SVG
viewer plugin. In the end, we developed the product in Flash because of
its ubiquity. If it's difficult to get users to install an SVG plugin from
a trusted source such as Adobe (now the owners of Flash), I expect it will
be *much* more difficult to get them to install Kamen. We may have been a
non-insignificant factor in the failure to convince, but our story is far
from rare. Considering the security risks involved with installing a
browser plugin, I'm not sure the users are wrong.
You also missed the winking smily by which I was indicating both the
unlikeliness of convincing millions of users to install the plugin and the
fact that I didn't expect that was dustmop's intention, hence the wink.
I didn't feel it was a "rain on parade" post since I seriously doubted
that dustmop was naive enough to intend to have his plugin become the
next Flash. None of this detracts from dustmop's work. It's a cool project
and could be useful in intranet, or other more controlled, environments.
However, if you think a public web site is going to convince a significant
number of users to install it (even with free money), I believe you'll be
sadly disappointed.
> kzo
This experiment failed a few times for much bigger companies like Sun
and Microsoft.
Users are unwilling to download and install java to get java rich
clients. Same for dotnet.
And mind you, their offering is much more better than plain html
+javascript expericence you get after going all the trouble
downloading and installing Firefox, then downloading and installing
plugin, then restarting FF.
If I would agree to all that trouble, i would like to get real rich
client.
On Apr 5, 12:17 pm, Brian Adkins <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 01:40:15 -0400, Ken Tilton wrote:
>
> > Brian Adkins wrote:
> >> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:12 -0700, dustmop wrote:
>
> >>>Hi All,
> >>>I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
> >>>a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
> >>>Javascript to script webpages.
>
> >>>You can check it out here:
> >>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>
> >>>This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
> >>>unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
> >>>enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
> >>>Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
> >>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>
> >>>For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
> >>>crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
> >>>be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
>
> >> Then for the version after that, you just have to convince millions of
> >> people to install the extension ;)
>
> > I do not understand this comment. I thought dustmop's job was to make
> > the install easy. It is the job of the web site based on Kamen to entice
> > people to do the install, possibly by offering free money.
>
> > I mean, Macromedia never got me to install Flash, the snowboard
> > equipment site did. And they did not even offer me free money.
>
> > Did I miss something?
>
> Yes, user's are very reluctant to install plugins. Flash is very much the
> exception, not the rule. At a previous company, we thought we could get
> customers (just our customers, not the public) to install an Adobe SVG
> viewer plugin. In the end, we developed the product in Flash because of
> its ubiquity. If it's difficult to get users to install an SVG plugin from
> a trusted source such as Adobe (now the owners of Flash), I expect it will
> be *much* more difficult to get them to install Kamen. We may have been a
> non-insignificant factor in the failure to convince, but our story is far
> from rare. Considering the security risks involved with installing a
> browser plugin, I'm not sure the users are wrong.
>
> You also missed the winking smily by which I was indicating both the
> unlikeliness of convincing millions of users to install the plugin and the
> fact that I didn't expect that was dustmop's intention, hence the wink.
>
Correct you are.
> I didn't feel it was a "rain on parade" post since I seriously doubted
> that dustmop was naive enough to intend to have his plugin become the
> next Flash. None of this detracts from dustmop's work. It's a cool project
> and could be useful in intranet, or other more controlled, environments.
> However, if you think a public web site is going to convince a significant
> number of users to install it (even with free money), I believe you'll be
> sadly disappointed.
Personally, I didn't take it that way at all. I'm glad you appreciate
it for what it is!
>
> > kzo
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Kamen Lisp - Firefox extension to script webpages with CL
Date:
Message-ID: <belRh.248$hU4.162@newsfe12.lga>
·······@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 5, 12:17 pm, Brian Adkins <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 01:40:15 -0400, Ken Tilton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Brian Adkins wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:12 -0700, dustmop wrote:
>>
>>>>>Hi All,
>>>>>I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
>>>>>a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
>>>>>Javascript to script webpages.
>>
>>>>>You can check it out here:
>>>>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>>
>>>>>This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
>>>>>unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
>>>>>enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
>>>>>Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
>>>>>http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>>
>>>>>For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
>>>>>crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
>>>>>be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
>>
>>>>Then for the version after that, you just have to convince millions of
>>>>people to install the extension ;)
>>
>>>I do not understand this comment. I thought dustmop's job was to make
>>>the install easy. It is the job of the web site based on Kamen to entice
>>>people to do the install, possibly by offering free money.
>>
>>>I mean, Macromedia never got me to install Flash, the snowboard
>>>equipment site did. And they did not even offer me free money.
>>
>>>Did I miss something?
>>
>>Yes, user's are very reluctant to install plugins. Flash is very much the
>>exception, not the rule. At a previous company, we thought we could get
>>customers (just our customers, not the public) to install an Adobe SVG
>>viewer plugin. In the end, we developed the product in Flash because of
>>its ubiquity. If it's difficult to get users to install an SVG plugin from
>>a trusted source such as Adobe (now the owners of Flash), I expect it will
>>be *much* more difficult to get them to install Kamen. We may have been a
>>non-insignificant factor in the failure to convince, but our story is far
>>from rare. Considering the security risks involved with installing a
>>browser plugin, I'm not sure the users are wrong.
>>
>>You also missed the winking smily by which I was indicating both the
>>unlikeliness of convincing millions of users to install the plugin and the
>>fact that I didn't expect that was dustmop's intention, hence the wink.
>>
>
>
> Correct you are.
>
>
>>I didn't feel it was a "rain on parade" post since I seriously doubted
>>that dustmop was naive enough to intend to have his plugin become the
>>next Flash. None of this detracts from dustmop's work. It's a cool project
>>and could be useful in intranet, or other more controlled, environments.
>>However, if you think a public web site is going to convince a significant
>>number of users to install it (even with free money), I believe you'll be
>>sadly disappointed.
>
>
> Personally, I didn't take it that way at all. I'm glad you appreciate
> it for what it is!
Aw, jeez, get a room!
:)
kxo
--
"As long as algebra is taught in school,
there will be prayer in school." - Cokie Roberts
"Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra."
- Fran Lebowitz
"I'm an algebra liar. I figure two good lies make a positive."
- Tim Allen
"Algebra is the metaphysics of arithmetic." - John Ray
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/
> It's a cool project
> and could be useful in intranet, or other more controlled, environments.
> However, if you think a public web site is going to convince a significant
> number of users to install it (even with free money), I believe you'll be
> sadly disappointed.
>
He may not conquer the world, but making life easier for the
controlled
audience is a couse worth pursuing.Also adding few security extensins
like
expiring authentication codes would be easy.
Brian Adkins <·················@gmail.com> writes:
> Yes, user's are very reluctant to install plugins. Flash is very much the
> exception, not the rule. At a previous company, we thought we could get
> customers (just our customers, not the public) to install an Adobe SVG
> viewer plugin. In the end, we developed the product in Flash because of
> its ubiquity. If it's difficult to get users to install an SVG plugin from
> a trusted source such as Adobe (now the owners of Flash), I expect it will
> be *much* more difficult to get them to install Kamen. We may have been a
> non-insignificant factor in the failure to convince, but our story is far
> from rare. Considering the security risks involved with installing a
> browser plugin, I'm not sure the users are wrong.
>
> You also missed the winking smily by which I was indicating both the
> unlikeliness of convincing millions of users to install the plugin and the
> fact that I didn't expect that was dustmop's intention, hence the wink.
Actually, we'd have to convince only one single entity (assuming the
second one is already convinced, and the other would follow suit the
first as they always do).
That is, once you've got a Firefox plugin that's worthwhile, it can
easily be packaged with Firefox. The only ones we need to convice to
put a CL inside their browser are Microsoft. The others would follow.
(of course, we could be afraid they'd put a CL# or .cl instead...)
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com
http://pjb.ogamita.org
On Apr 4, 11:09 pm, Brian Adkins <·················@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:12 -0700, dustmop wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
> > a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
> > Javascript to script webpages.
>
> > You can check it out here:
> >http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>
> > This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
> > unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
> > enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
> > Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
> >http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>
> > For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
> > crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
> > be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
>
> Then for the version after that, you just have to convince millions of
> people to install the extension ;)
Certainly! Though my intention here is not to push the world towards
doing something new, just to push Lisp towards doing something neat.
·······@gmail.com wrote:
> I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
> a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
> Javascript to script webpages.
This is a great start. Just adding my vote for your idea.
-Antony
·······@gmail.com writes:
> Hi All,
> I wanted to announce a project I've been hacking on for a while. It's
> a Firefox extension that allows Common Lisp to be used instead of
> Javascript to script webpages.
>
> You can check it out here:
> http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/index.php
>
> This is still a very early version, it's still a bit unstable (very
> unstable on Linux), and limited in functionality. Basically there's
> enough in place to make this demo page work, which calculates
> Fibonacci numbers and uses some DHTML to display the result:
> http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~dlong/software/kamen/fib.html
>
> For the next version I hope to fix many of the current issues (random
> crashes, dom limitations, single global environment) but figured you'd
> be interested in hearing about where it's at so far.
Exactly what I'd need, when it'll work, and with a time machine, since
I needed it last month actually. Good job anyways!
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com
http://pjb.ogamita.org