From: jmckitrick
Subject: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1159141339.468374.294930@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?

From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <pan.2006.09.24.23.48.28.433217@gmail.com>
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:42:19 -0700, jmckitrick wrote:

> ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
> 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?

Python or Ruby I think

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal
http://lars.nostdal.org/
From: jmckitrick
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1159157246.689429.205730@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:42:19 -0700, jmckitrick wrote:
>
> > ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
> > 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?
>
> Python or Ruby I think

How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
is more well known?

I know what I am going to say, but I'm curious what some of you would
say as well.
From: Adam Jones
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1159160404.756840.68150@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
jmckitrick wrote:
> Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:42:19 -0700, jmckitrick wrote:
> >
> > > ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
> > > 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?
> >
> > Python or Ruby I think
>
> How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> is more well known?
>
> I know what I am going to say, but I'm curious what some of you would
> say as well.

If the only thing you are considering is the ability to accomplish
these tasks, PHP is sufficient, but by no means better than other
options. I would base any argument for something else on areas where
PHP is difficult to use. Common things like error handling and logging
are more difficult in PHP than other popular choices. The lack of a
sophisticated package management system and poor object-oriented
programming support (not to mention practically nonexistent support for
any other programming paradigm) make organizing your code and working
in groups more difficult.

Many of the popular alternatives (Ruby, Python, Perl) have much better
libraries. All of them have some kind of centralized repository for
third-party libraries.

What I wouldn't do is spend a lot of time arguing the points the CEO
has already assumed. There are a lot of languages that are roughly on
par with PHP in popularity. Google pays the inventor of Python to work
on the language, that should be sufficient if that is your choice. Perl
is probably available on more servers than any other single language in
existence. I am not familiar enough with  Ruby to have a similar
example, but something probably exists.

As for PHP being what he is familiar with, the important point is what
will work best for your team, not what the CEO knows. If there is
another language that your team considers to be a better choice and at
least most of them know, go for that.

-Adam
From: Frank Buss
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1jjki3xk3wibq$.1uiwjisl2iegn$.dlg@40tude.net>
jmckitrick wrote:

> How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> is more well known?

You could ask him, if he thinks it would be a good idea to advice a car
repair shop to use only his tool from his hobby room instead of the tools
in the repair shop to repair his car, because he is familiar with it and it
is more well known (after all, you can buy it in all do-it-yourself stores,
can't you? But I've never heard of this special car axis adjustment tool,
so why not using my screwdriver for repairing it?)

-- 
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Stefan Arentz
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87slignysr.fsf@kip.sateh.com>
"jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:

> Lars Rune N�stdal wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:42:19 -0700, jmckitrick wrote:
> >
> > > ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
> > > 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?
> >
> > Python or Ruby I think
> 
> How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> is more well known?
> 
> I know what I am going to say, but I'm curious what some of you would
> say as well.

It depends on the project. In many cases it is a perfectly fine tool that
does the job.

 S.
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <pan.2006.09.25.09.26.07.398677@gmail.com>
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:07:26 -0700, jmckitrick wrote:

> 
> Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:42:19 -0700, jmckitrick wrote:
>>
>> > ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
>> > 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?
>>
>> Python or Ruby I think
> 
> How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better choice
> because it is a language they are familiar with and because .. *snip!*

Maybe I'll just write it in Lisp before he can finish his sentence; or
maybe I'll write a version in Lisp also - one that runs faster and is more
flexible.

..I'll call it the "testing-version" or something..

Or maybe I'll write a tool in Lisp that the PHP-users (both me and others)
"calls"; and just use PHP for the "surface-stuff". "I'll rewrite the
back-end in PHP when we have time. You see I already had most of the
boilerplate-code for this kind of task at hand already; so this saves some
time now in the early stages."

..or maybe I might agree under the right circumstances; he might be right.. :)

(replace every occurrence of "Lisp" in this post with Python, Ruby or
whatever you prefer as an alternative to Lisp)

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal
http://lars.nostdal.org/
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <m1mz8oyxgu.fsf@doduo.netfonds.no>
"jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:

> How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> is more well known?

Depends on the CEO's pointyhairedness score. If it's too high, I'd
either walk my way or say "fine", and implement most of the
application in a lisp application server which php could talk to :-)
-- 
  (espen)
From: Stefan Arentz
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <874puwnog1.fsf@kip.sateh.com>
Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:

> "jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> > How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> > choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> > is more well known?
> 
> Depends on the CEO's pointyhairedness score. If it's too high, I'd
> either walk my way or say "fine", and implement most of the
> application in a lisp application server which php could talk to :-)

So instead of listening to your boss, who just gave you two good
reasons not to use Lisp, you lie to him as a little child and do
something else behind his back. Excellent advise! :-/

 S.
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <m1irjcyvnr.fsf@doduo.netfonds.no>
Stefan Arentz <·············@gmail.com> writes:

> So instead of listening to your boss, who just gave you two good
> reasons not to use Lisp, you lie to him as a little child and do
> something else behind his back. Excellent advise! :-/

Ahem! I thought there was a presupposition here that the application
in question here wasn't really suitable for php reimplementation.

Besides, you seem to have missed the point that I was really talking
about the case when there's no point in listening to or discuss with
the boss, and that my primary suggestion was to leave...

(And btw using a lisp application server with a php front end is
 actually a good idea)
-- 
  (espen)
From: Stefan Arentz
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87vencm7f3.fsf@kip.sateh.com>
Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:

...

> (And btw using a lisp application server with a php front end is
>  actually a good idea)

Is there such a thing as a lisp application server? It is something
I've been trying to figure out in my Lisp quest. Is it possible to
package lisp (web) applications and deploy them in one instance?

 S.
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <m1ac4oytfr.fsf@doduo.netfonds.no>
Stefan Arentz <·············@gmail.com> writes:

> > (And btw using a lisp application server with a php front end is
> >  actually a good idea)
> 
> Is there such a thing as a lisp application server? It is something
> I've been trying to figure out in my Lisp quest. Is it possible to
> package lisp (web) applications and deploy them in one instance?

Sorry. I have a bad habit of misusing the term "application server",
I always forget the very specific meaning it has gotten :-(

What I'm talking about is really any kind of "middleware" server that
helps the front end web server do its work.
-- 
  (espen)
From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXNiavhybiBCavhybnN0YWQ=?=
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1159251028.330264.164820@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Stefan Arentz wrote:
> Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
>
> > "jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> > > How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> > > choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> > > is more well known?
> >
> > Depends on the CEO's pointyhairedness score. If it's too high, I'd
> > either walk my way or say "fine", and implement most of the
> > application in a lisp application server which php could talk to :-)
>
> So instead of listening to your boss, who just gave you two good
> reasons not to use Lisp, you lie to him as a little child and do
> something else behind his back. Excellent advise! :-/

Just in case you don't know: Espen is working in a company where
they have a php frontend with a lisp backend. (In addition to lisp
clients that skip the web/php part, I think) I think they're doing
quite
well, so the advice might indeed be excellent :-)

I don't know if he is actually relaying his experience, though.
I think they had lisp-guys there from quite early on.
-- 
 -asbjxrn
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <m1zmcn2l0n.fsf@vestre.net>
"Asbj�rn Bj�rnstad" <·······@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't know if he is actually relaying his experience, though.

No. 
-- 
  (espen)
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <m1slif2kpa.fsf@vestre.net>
"Asbj�rn Bj�rnstad" <·······@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't know if he is actually relaying his experience, though.

No, not at all! There are no pointy haired bosses where I work :-) But
I've seen a lot of pointy hair earlier (which did not directly belong
to a boss of mine, luckily), and I know that in the most severe cases,
they will be very happy with the solution I suggested, since they only
able to grasp the superficial anyway ;-)

> I think they had lisp-guys there from quite early on.

That's right.
-- 
  (espen)
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <m164fb5c1u.fsf@doduo.netfonds.no>
"Asbj�rn Bj�rnstad" <·······@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't know if he is actually relaying his experience, though.

No, not at all! There are no pointy haired bosses where I work :-) But
I've seen a lot of pointy hair earlier (which did not directly belong
to a boss of mine, luckily), and I know that in the most severe cases,
they will be very happy with the solution I suggested, since they're
only able to grasp the superficial anyway ;-)

> I think they had lisp-guys there from quite early on.

That's right.
-- 
  (espen)
From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXNiavhybiBCavhybnN0YWQ=?=
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1159261650.587862.145720@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
Espen Vestre wrote:
> "Asbjørn Bjørnstad" <·······@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I don't know if he is actually relaying his experience, though.
>
> No, not at all! There are no pointy haired bosses where I work :-)

That's what I thought. The smiley made me wonder, though.
-- 
 -asbjxrn
From: Tim X
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87lko8cqs6.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au>
"jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:

> Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:42:19 -0700, jmckitrick wrote:
>>
>> > ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
>> > 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?
>>
>> Python or Ruby I think
>
> How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> is more well known?
>
> I know what I am going to say, but I'm curious what some of you would
> say as well.
>

I'm not sure I'd say anything without more information. I often find
that programmers often put too much emphasis on the language at the
expense of other issues that are just as relevant to a successful
project. For example, there is no point in selecting a language if you
either cannot get enough programmers experienced in that language or
if the cost of getting such programmers is too high. If there is a
critical requirement to have something up and running in a short time
period, available libraries may be an issue. The deployment platform
and integration with other applications is likely to be relevant and
any possible impact on marketability of the final product may also be
relevant. 

We may not think Java, PHP, python or perl are as good as CL, but to
ignore the perceptions of management and the market, the availability
of programmers and their cost and the environment the application will
run under is rarely going to result in a positive outcome.

If my CEO told me he wanted an application developed in PHP because it
was a language existing staff were familiar with and because it was a
more well known language, I certainly wouldn't discount his opinion
out of hand. Most of the applications being developed these days are
quite basic and well understood rather than representing something
truely innovative in a new domain or presenting a totally new
approach/paradigm. In most cases, you could use CL or any of the
popular languages with probably the same outcome in the end. With CL,
you may achieve some results in a more elegant manner and you may
achieve it with less code and in a shorter time, which is certainly
relevant from a maintenance perspective, but these advantages could be
off-set by the need to develop more libraries to do things that are
part of the standard libraries for languages like PHP, Java and
Python or because more work is required to integrate with other
applications or because you couldn't attract enough programmers with
the salary budget available, etc, etc. 

In conclusion, if my CEO said implement in PHP, I would ask for more
information on the project, consider all the issues I thought were
relevant and then either agree or provide a well reasoned argument as
to why an alternative language would be a better candidate. It is
likely the argument would be difficult to formulate and given current
market attitudes, CL would be a difficult proposition to justify.
However, I would also expect that my CEO has me in a position to
provide input because he/she has respect for my opinion, trusts that I
don't make decisions based on religious conviction for a specific
technology and that I can appreciate the larger picture.

Tim 

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au
From: Charlton Wilbur
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87sligf7fo.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
Tim X <····@nospam.dev.null> writes:

> In conclusion, if my CEO said implement in PHP, 

...I would probably nod, smile, and pick the best tool for the job.  

> However, I would also expect that my CEO has me in a position to
> provide input because he/she has respect for my opinion, trusts that I
> don't make decisions based on religious conviction for a specific
> technology and that I can appreciate the larger picture.

Alas, not all of us have such wonderful CEOs.  Mine is a fantastic
businessman, but he ranges on any given day from technophobia to
buzzword techno-fetishism, and his BS detectors completely malfunction
whenever there's silicon involved.  Allowing him to dictate platform
decisions like that is detrimental to the company, as he and his
management team have already made at least one major blunder that
we're still coping with the aftershocks from.

(I have learned two things from this job, though, so it's a net
positive for me thus far.  One, in an interview, ask your manager what
language he or she last coded in and what he or she liked/hated about
it -- the important part is not the answer, but that there is one.  I
didn't do that this time, and it shows.  A manager who's never been in
the trenches, and who went right from school to management, is likely
to have skewed notions of some things.  Two, all languages are equally
useful and equally productive, and ColdFusion is the same as Lisp --
at least after Lisp has suffered a transporter accident and showed up
wearing a sleeveles uniform and a goatee.)

Charlton
From: Alain Picard
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87u02w8eic.fsf@memetrics.com>
"jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:

> How would you respond to a CEO who seriously thinks php is a better
> choice because it is a language they are familiar with and because it
> is more well known?

This is a much more difficult question than you may realize.
[And I speak as one who has convinced a CEO to use a "non-mainstream"
 language.]

Choosing a language for a project is a serious matter, especially if
that project is critical to the success of the business endeavor.
How easy or hard it makes the life of the developer is but one thing
to consider; other aspects include training, size of talent pool,
whether an obscure language would diminish the perceived value of
the company to potential investors/buyers, etc.

If your CEO is seriously trying to make such decisions on a
technical basis, well... you'll never have technical autonomy
and should decide now what this implies for your happiness in
that environment.  If he's operating out of fear and ignorance,
it is YOUR JOB to enlighten him, and it may not be as hard as
you think, as long as your arguments are sound.

What is certain is that, in the end, both you and your CEO have
to operate on a basis of trust.  Otherwise, you will be operating
on a basis of fear, and, in this case, choice of language is the least
of your worries.

Good luck
                Alain Picard
From: Wade Humeniuk
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <7WGRg.31311$bf5.10976@edtnps90>
jmckitrick wrote:
> ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
> 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?
> 

C# in Visual Studio

Wade
From: Stefan Arentz
Subject: Re: If you *had* to port a lisp webapp...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87wt7snyty.fsf@kip.sateh.com>
"jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:

> ...the usual db backend, XML/HTML generation, some AJAX... to a more
> 'mainstream' language, what target language would you choose?

Java with Wicket. http://wicket.sf.net

One of the few Java web frameworks where you don't feel like you're
coding in early 90s CGI style.

 S.