From: charlie
Subject: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1158354979.738201.165860@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Hi,
I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.

Cheers,
Charlie

From: Novus
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <2006091623340216807-novus@ngoqdeorg>
On 2006-09-15 17:16:19 -0400, "charlie" <···············@gmail.com> said:

> Hi,
> I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
> say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
> that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
> jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
> docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
> widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
> drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.

I wouldn't mind having a simple example of it working at all on Linux or OS X.

Novus
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <a54Pg.499$Su.43@newsfe10.lga>
Novus wrote:
> On 2006-09-15 17:16:19 -0400, "charlie" <···············@gmail.com> said:
> 
>> Hi,
>> I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
>> say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
>> that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
>> jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
>> docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
>> widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
>> drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind having a simple example of it working at all on Linux or 
> OS X.

er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme guess... 
wx is the one you already know? makes sense.

ken

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2lkoj144u.fsf@machamp-218.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Novus wrote:
>> On 2006-09-15 17:16:19 -0400, "charlie" <···············@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
>>> say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
>>> that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
>>> jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
>>> docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
>>> widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
>>> drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't mind having a simple example of it working at all on
>> Linux or OS X.
>
> er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme
> guess... wx is the one you already know? makes sense.

So have you really changed your mind about Cells or not?  This is all
very confusing.
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <%ofPg.21$Dr2.19@newsfe11.lga>
Bill Atkins wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Novus wrote:
>>
>>>On 2006-09-15 17:16:19 -0400, "charlie" <···············@gmail.com> said:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
>>>>say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
>>>>that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
>>>>jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
>>>>docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
>>>>widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
>>>>drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.
>>>
>>>
>>>I wouldn't mind having a simple example of it working at all on
>>>Linux or OS X.
>>
>>er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme
>>guess... wx is the one you already know? makes sense.
> 
> 
> So have you really changed your mind about Cells or not?  This is all
> very confusing.

Cells-GTk and Celtk apply Cells to the "internals" chore of piping info 
to/from their implementing C guis. That works. The users of C***tk can 
specify ":cell nil" on all the slots in all their own classes and 
pretend Cells does not exist.

But why are you confused? Have you tried Cells in anger? If so, why does 
my current opinion matter? If not, ten years of my prior opinion clearly 
does not matter.

btw, I would not normally recommend Celtk because it is undocumented, 
unsupported, and unfinished, but a brave soul dug it up and got it 
running without too much fuss, so maybe others can, too. We few, we 
happy few, are loving the OpenGL widget... hmmm, I guess this drags 
Cello back into the picture: OpenAL, GraphicsMagick, FTGL... yummy. And 
I am using Celtk/Cello for production work, so it is maintained and 
being extended.

I really should add a scene graph library, yes? OSG? Otherwise, 
Mastenbrook's insatiable appetite for more libraries can now be 
satisfied by TCL. Look for Cello to augment (replace?) OpenAL with Tcl's 
Snack. Real-time audio synthesis from Lisp? Shut up! (That last phrase 
has four or more syllables if pronounced as intended.)

I just wish I did not have this commercial app to develop so I could 
play with all that stuff. Next year.

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2eju74xra.fsf@machamp-218.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> But why are you confused? Have you tried Cells in anger? If so, why
> does my current opinion matter? If not, ten years of my prior opinion
> clearly does not matter.

I've played around with it a little, and thought it was pretty neat.
But I'd say it does matter if Cell's author and biggest advocate
starts to suggest that it's not so good anymore.
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <PhWPg.21$OM3.16@newsfe11.lga>
Bill Atkins wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>But why are you confused? Have you tried Cells in anger? If so, why
>>does my current opinion matter? If not, ten years of my prior opinion
>>clearly does not matter.
> 
> 
> I've played around with it a little, and thought it was pretty neat.
> But I'd say it does matter if Cell's author and biggest advocate
> starts to suggest that it's not so good anymore.

They did not invent them, but Gabriel has denounced OOP and Graham has 
denounced CL -- come to think of it, Norvig dumped CL for Python. Heck, 
speaking of inventors, I think McCarthy does not like CL per se. He and 
another Lisp Legend closed ILC '2005 by slamming CL mercilessly.

Why are we all still happily using CL and CLOS? We think they were wrong 
based on the merits of the technology in question. (Hint.)

If you want moral support for your interest in Cells (thx, btw), go look 
at how Adobe is betting the ranch on Adam, which is an absolute joke 
compared to Garnet/KR, COSI, and Cells. Yet they still love it.

hth, ken


-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2wt7zzi86.fsf@machamp-218.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

>> I've played around with it a little, and thought it was pretty neat.
>> But I'd say it does matter if Cell's author and biggest advocate
>> starts to suggest that it's not so good anymore.
>
> They did not invent them, but Gabriel has denounced OOP and Graham has
> denounced CL -- come to think of it, Norvig dumped CL for
> Python. Heck, speaking of inventors, I think McCarthy does not like CL
> per se. He and another Lisp Legend closed ILC '2005 by slamming CL
> mercilessly.

:)  Good point.

Bill
From: charlie
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1158524830.562127.17470@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> Novus wrote:
> > On 2006-09-15 17:16:19 -0400, "charlie" <···············@gmail.com> said:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >> I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
> >> say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
> >> that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
> >> jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
> >> docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
> >> widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
> >> drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.
> >
> >
> > I wouldn't mind having a simple example of it working at all on Linux or
> > OS X.
>
> er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme guess...
> wx is the one you already know? makes sense.
>

I'm really just looking for something that has a low barrier to entry
and allows me to do fast-ish graphics with clisp under windows and
linux. I like to write fun little pretties during downtime at work. I
don't know wx at all which is probably part of the problem. I am used
to using ltk more than anything but it's too slow for pretty animation
(but great for other uses). I haven't tried cell* but I will certainly
have a look if you think it's quick and easy on win32.

Cheers,
Charlie
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1MpPg.86$ms1.7@newsfe08.lga>
charlie wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
>>Novus wrote:
>>
>>>On 2006-09-15 17:16:19 -0400, "charlie" <···············@gmail.com> said:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
>>>>say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
>>>>that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
>>>>jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
>>>>docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
>>>>widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
>>>>drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.
>>>
>>>
>>>I wouldn't mind having a simple example of it working at all on Linux or
>>>OS X.
>>
>>er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme guess...
>>wx is the one you already know? makes sense.
>>
> 
> 
> I'm really just looking for something that has a low barrier to entry
> and allows me to do fast-ish graphics with clisp under windows and
> linux.

Not sure about CLisp. I have a pretty clear recollection of Cells-Gtk 
running there, and the original (look for a subdirectory with it) /was/ 
Clisp. Installed Gtk and then CLisp and got it running (the original) in 
like an hour.

> I like to write fun little pretties during downtime at work. I
> don't know wx at all which is probably part of the problem. I am used
> to using ltk more than anything but it's too slow for pretty animation
> (but great for other uses).

Ah, well, Celtk uses FFI where LTk uses pipes, so that may help. OpenGL 
of course would be the ultimate (leveraging the GPU) but then you have 
to know OpenGL. The Tk canvas might be your best shot, tho OpenGL is a 
joy results-wise.

> I haven't tried cell* but I will certainly
> have a look if you think it's quick and easy on win32.

It's my platform, so that helps.

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: charlie
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1158586125.590387.233390@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> charlie wrote:
> > Ken Tilton wrote:
> >
> >>Novus wrote:
> >>
> >>>On 2006-09-15 17:16:19 -0400, "charlie" <···············@gmail.com> said:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Hi,
> >>>>I'm looking at wxcl and I really don't know where to start. The docs
> >>>>say that I should read the source but I am as-of-yet unenlightened by
> >>>>that experience. I really just need some really simple example as a
> >>>>jumping off point. Something that does what the examples in the ltk
> >>>>docs do. You know, open a window, put a widget in the window, make the
> >>>>widget do something. If there are any wxcl users out there who can just
> >>>>drop a runnable example here I would really appreciate it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I wouldn't mind having a simple example of it working at all on Linux or
> >>>OS X.
> >>
> >>er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme guess...
> >>wx is the one you already know? makes sense.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I'm really just looking for something that has a low barrier to entry
> > and allows me to do fast-ish graphics with clisp under windows and
> > linux.
>
> Not sure about CLisp. I have a pretty clear recollection of Cells-Gtk
> running there, and the original (look for a subdirectory with it) /was/
> Clisp. Installed Gtk and then CLisp and got it running (the original) in
> like an hour.
>
> > I like to write fun little pretties during downtime at work. I
> > don't know wx at all which is probably part of the problem. I am used
> > to using ltk more than anything but it's too slow for pretty animation
> > (but great for other uses).
>
> Ah, well, Celtk uses FFI where LTk uses pipes, so that may help. OpenGL
> of course would be the ultimate (leveraging the GPU) but then you have
> to know OpenGL. The Tk canvas might be your best shot, tho OpenGL is a
> joy results-wise.
>
> > I haven't tried cell* but I will certainly
> > have a look if you think it's quick and easy on win32.
>
> It's my platform, so that helps.
>
> kt
>
> --
> Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
>
> "I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
>     -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon

You know I had totally forgotten about openGL. Thanks for reminding me.
I have tried using the Tk canvas with Ltk and it's got two problems:
you have to create all the shapes when you before you start to move
them (dynamic creation is even slower) so if you need to draw K dots it
takes ages to start and the whole pipes thing just makes it too slow. I
know I have libraries installed for gl and gtk but I'm afraid I'm going
to have to go for openGL first. It's your own fault for reminding me
otherwise I'd be a cells-gtk user by the end of the day!

Cheers,
Charlie
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <2uzPg.15$YZ2.2@newsfe10.lga>
charlie wrote:

> You know I had totally forgotten about openGL. Thanks for reminding me.
> I have tried using the Tk canvas with Ltk and it's got two problems:
> you have to create all the shapes when you before you start to move
> them (dynamic creation is even slower) so if you need to draw K dots it
> takes ages to start and the whole pipes thing just makes it too slow. I
> know I have libraries installed for gl and gtk but I'm afraid I'm going
> to have to go for openGL first. It's your own fault for reminding me
> otherwise I'd be a cells-gtk user by the end of the day!

Note that you have a lot of options to do OpenGL: cl-sdl, Celtk, some 
recent "lisp app" project based on SDL. Tk has some Togl-based widget 
requiring only TCL that probably could be added to LTk pretty easily. 
And did you check to see if there is an add-on Gtk widget that Cells-Gtk 
could support?

Have fun, but... OpenGL is nasty.

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: charlie
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1158599586.130535.198380@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> charlie wrote:
>
> > You know I had totally forgotten about openGL. Thanks for reminding me.
> > I have tried using the Tk canvas with Ltk and it's got two problems:
> > you have to create all the shapes when you before you start to move
> > them (dynamic creation is even slower) so if you need to draw K dots it
> > takes ages to start and the whole pipes thing just makes it too slow. I
> > know I have libraries installed for gl and gtk but I'm afraid I'm going
> > to have to go for openGL first. It's your own fault for reminding me
> > otherwise I'd be a cells-gtk user by the end of the day!
>
> Note that you have a lot of options to do OpenGL: cl-sdl, Celtk, some
> recent "lisp app" project based on SDL. Tk has some Togl-based widget
> requiring only TCL that probably could be added to LTk pretty easily.
> And did you check to see if there is an add-on Gtk widget that Cells-Gtk
> could support?

>
> Have fun, but... OpenGL is nasty.
>
> kt
>

Wow yeah I remember when I looked at gl before I was confused by all
the options. That's why I'm going to glut. It's probably the most
portable (to other languages, platforms ...). The Gtk widget you
mentioned is called GtkGlExt and can be found here
http://www.k-3d.org/gtkglext/Main_Page . Last time I looked seriously
at gl+gtk, GLArea was the de-facto but this one seems to have
superceeded it. I don't know if Cells-Gtk could support it (I don't
know anything about Cells-Gtk or otherwise) but I don't see why not.
I just got cl-opengl to give me the demos so I can go from there (to
greatness?).
Yes GL is nasty but cl-opengl seems to have a nice interface so the
nastness is hidden to a small extent :)

Cheers,
Charlie
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <ngCPg.58$SY4.28@newsfe12.lga>
charlie wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>>Have fun, but... OpenGL is nasty.
>>
>>kt
>>
> 
> 
> Wow yeah I remember when I looked at gl before I was confused by all
> the options. That's why I'm going to glut.

Ah, I saw Glut support in cl-opengl when I looked briefly at that but it 
did not sink in or I would have added it to the list. But...

Sorry, Charlie. You are still on your own with OpenGL. Glut's job is 
just to give you window, rudimentary event stream, and really crappy menus.

otoh, it sounds like you just want to have fun with pretty simple 
graphics, just fast graphics, so you can probably get by by 
cannibalizing random demos. Or...

Here is a sick idea. What if we all band together and start working out 
way thru the NeHe tutorials at http://nehe.gamedev.net/

He lists at the end of each solutions for various platforms, each 
submitted by fans of that platform. It would be great to see cl-opengl 
solutions up there. I should think the source then becomes a contrib to 
the cl-opengl project.

ken

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: charlie
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1158611854.368555.138060@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> charlie wrote:
> > Ken Tilton wrote:
> >>Have fun, but... OpenGL is nasty.
> >>
> >>kt
> >>
> >
> >
> > Wow yeah I remember when I looked at gl before I was confused by all
> > the options. That's why I'm going to glut.
>
> Ah, I saw Glut support in cl-opengl when I looked briefly at that but it
> did not sink in or I would have added it to the list. But...
>
> Sorry, Charlie. You are still on your own with OpenGL. Glut's job is
> just to give you window, rudimentary event stream, and really crappy menus.
>
> otoh, it sounds like you just want to have fun with pretty simple
> graphics, just fast graphics, so you can probably get by by
> cannibalizing random demos. Or...
>
> Here is a sick idea. What if we all band together and start working out
> way thru the NeHe tutorials at http://nehe.gamedev.net/
>
> He lists at the end of each solutions for various platforms, each
> submitted by fans of that platform. It would be great to see cl-opengl
> solutions up there. I should think the source then becomes a contrib to
> the cl-opengl project.
>
> ken
>

Crappy windows are all I really want. It's what's happening *in* the
windows that I'm concerned with :)
The clos bingings for glut look really nice and clean so I'm sure
that'll take away some of the pain!

Yes, you are sick! That does sound like a worthy idea and I'll get to
know openGL. I don't know how much time I'll be able to give, how far
I'll go (or how distracted I'll get) but I will certainly start working
through them. There are some pretty serious demos in there but I bet
it's a great way to learn gl.

Cheers,
Charlie
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <ZHDPg.33$YZ2.17@newsfe10.lga>
charlie wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
>>charlie wrote:
>>
>>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>
>>>>Have fun, but... OpenGL is nasty.
>>>>
>>>>kt
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Wow yeah I remember when I looked at gl before I was confused by all
>>>the options. That's why I'm going to glut.
>>
>>Ah, I saw Glut support in cl-opengl when I looked briefly at that but it
>>did not sink in or I would have added it to the list. But...
>>
>>Sorry, Charlie. You are still on your own with OpenGL. Glut's job is
>>just to give you window, rudimentary event stream, and really crappy menus.
>>
>>otoh, it sounds like you just want to have fun with pretty simple
>>graphics, just fast graphics, so you can probably get by by
>>cannibalizing random demos. Or...
>>
>>Here is a sick idea. What if we all band together and start working out
>>way thru the NeHe tutorials at http://nehe.gamedev.net/
>>
>>He lists at the end of each solutions for various platforms, each
>>submitted by fans of that platform. It would be great to see cl-opengl
>>solutions up there. I should think the source then becomes a contrib to
>>the cl-opengl project.
>>
>>ken
>>
> 
> 
> Crappy windows are all I really want. It's what's happening *in* the
> windows that I'm concerned with :)

Exactly. Glut just gives you an opengl context (and some neato demo 
shapes like cylinder, torus, and the legendary teapot. Well, OK, and 
some godawful support for two or three fonts displayed incredibly badly.

> The clos bingings for glut look really nice and clean so I'm sure
> that'll take away some of the pain!

OK, I think you meant to say the (a) CL api for (b) GL. Yes, very 
elaborate. I thought it got in the way because now the OpenGL doc no 
longer applies and by corrollary I have to learn the gratuitously 
inserted cl-opengl "Lispier" API. "Lispy" is good, I just think they did 
it wrong. They should have preserved OpenGL as is and /added/ Lispy 
niceties. Cello continues to use kt-opengl. But I digress..

No, I was not warning you about the dangers of passing fixnums where 
floats are wanted (things good bindings can help with). I am talking 
about OpenGL itself, even when you have a glorious OpenGL context from 
Glut and are making perfectly bound OpenGL calls. It is a delicate beast 
and loves to fail silently (for performance reasons) but it just makes 
development hard.

But, hey, I just want you to be prepared for some headscratching, not 
discourage you. OpenGL is a blast and well worth the learning curve.

ken

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: charlie
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1158613638.782025.50530@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> charlie wrote:
> > Ken Tilton wrote:
> >
> >>charlie wrote:
> >>
> >>>Ken Tilton wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Have fun, but... OpenGL is nasty.
> >>>>
> >>>>kt
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Wow yeah I remember when I looked at gl before I was confused by all
> >>>the options. That's why I'm going to glut.
> >>
> >>Ah, I saw Glut support in cl-opengl when I looked briefly at that but it
> >>did not sink in or I would have added it to the list. But...
> >>
> >>Sorry, Charlie. You are still on your own with OpenGL. Glut's job is
> >>just to give you window, rudimentary event stream, and really crappy menus.
> >>
> >>otoh, it sounds like you just want to have fun with pretty simple
> >>graphics, just fast graphics, so you can probably get by by
> >>cannibalizing random demos. Or...
> >>
> >>Here is a sick idea. What if we all band together and start working out
> >>way thru the NeHe tutorials at http://nehe.gamedev.net/
> >>
> >>He lists at the end of each solutions for various platforms, each
> >>submitted by fans of that platform. It would be great to see cl-opengl
> >>solutions up there. I should think the source then becomes a contrib to
> >>the cl-opengl project.
> >>
> >>ken
> >>
> >
> >
> > Crappy windows are all I really want. It's what's happening *in* the
> > windows that I'm concerned with :)
>
> Exactly. Glut just gives you an opengl context (and some neato demo
> shapes like cylinder, torus, and the legendary teapot. Well, OK, and
> some godawful support for two or three fonts displayed incredibly badly.
>
> > The clos bingings for glut look really nice and clean so I'm sure
> > that'll take away some of the pain!
>
> OK, I think you meant to say the (a) CL api for (b) GL. Yes, very
> elaborate. I thought it got in the way because now the OpenGL doc no
> longer applies and by corrollary I have to learn the gratuitously
> inserted cl-opengl "Lispier" API. "Lispy" is good, I just think they did
> it wrong. They should have preserved OpenGL as is and /added/ Lispy
> niceties. Cello continues to use kt-opengl. But I digress..
>

I didn't look at them that closely, I just thought, "That looks nice",
and went about my business. I would like to get a transferable gl
skillset. Is there a competative open-gl-like lisp binding (perhaps
including your own if it is competative)?

Cheers
Charlie
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <JsIPg.156$Nq1.12@newsfe08.lga>
charlie wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
>>charlie wrote:
>>
>>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>charlie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Have fun, but... OpenGL is nasty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>kt
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Wow yeah I remember when I looked at gl before I was confused by all
>>>>>the options. That's why I'm going to glut.
>>>>
>>>>Ah, I saw Glut support in cl-opengl when I looked briefly at that but it
>>>>did not sink in or I would have added it to the list. But...
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, Charlie. You are still on your own with OpenGL. Glut's job is
>>>>just to give you window, rudimentary event stream, and really crappy menus.
>>>>
>>>>otoh, it sounds like you just want to have fun with pretty simple
>>>>graphics, just fast graphics, so you can probably get by by
>>>>cannibalizing random demos. Or...
>>>>
>>>>Here is a sick idea. What if we all band together and start working out
>>>>way thru the NeHe tutorials at http://nehe.gamedev.net/
>>>>
>>>>He lists at the end of each solutions for various platforms, each
>>>>submitted by fans of that platform. It would be great to see cl-opengl
>>>>solutions up there. I should think the source then becomes a contrib to
>>>>the cl-opengl project.
>>>>
>>>>ken
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Crappy windows are all I really want. It's what's happening *in* the
>>>windows that I'm concerned with :)
>>
>>Exactly. Glut just gives you an opengl context (and some neato demo
>>shapes like cylinder, torus, and the legendary teapot. Well, OK, and
>>some godawful support for two or three fonts displayed incredibly badly.
>>
>>
>>>The clos bingings for glut look really nice and clean so I'm sure
>>>that'll take away some of the pain!
>>
>>OK, I think you meant to say the (a) CL api for (b) GL. Yes, very
>>elaborate. I thought it got in the way because now the OpenGL doc no
>>longer applies and by corrollary I have to learn the gratuitously
>>inserted cl-opengl "Lispier" API. "Lispy" is good, I just think they did
>>it wrong. They should have preserved OpenGL as is and /added/ Lispy
>>niceties. Cello continues to use kt-opengl. But I digress..
>>
> 
> 
> I didn't look at them that closely, I just thought, "That looks nice",
> and went about my business. I would like to get a transferable gl
> skillset. Is there a competative open-gl-like lisp binding (perhaps
> including your own if it is competative)?

Tough call. cl-opengl (I am guessing) will get more attention and polish 
as time goes on, albeit of a bad approach to bindings. kt-opengl -- 
well, the Open Source Fairy has left the building, sic caveat emptor and 
"everything sold as is, all sales final".

Hmmm... you get nice integration with the Glut in one library with 
cl-opengl. And, again, the learning curve I am talking about is the 
nuttiness of OpenGL.  The goofy bindings won't add more than a few 
percentage points of difficulty, and if you can do OpenGL with them, you 
can do OpenGL anywhere.

Go with cl-opengl, I would think, unless you think you might stop 
playing someday and write a serious app. Then you want Celtk to open of 
Tcl/Tk, a better event stream, and sensible OpenGL bindings.

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: charlie
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1158670720.828322.136140@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
>
> Hmmm... you get nice integration with the Glut in one library with
> cl-opengl. And, again, the learning curve I am talking about is the
> nuttiness of OpenGL.  The goofy bindings won't add more than a few
> percentage points of difficulty, and if you can do OpenGL with them, you
> can do OpenGL anywhere.
>
> Go with cl-opengl, I would think, unless you think you might stop
> playing someday and write a serious app. Then you want Celtk to open of
> Tcl/Tk, a better event stream, and sensible OpenGL bindings.
>

Alright, cl-opengl it is then. I guess it'll give me something to
complain about on my blog :) Thanks for your input. I doubt I'll
actually do anything serious with it but you never know.

Cheers,
Charle
From: GP lisper
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <slrneh27ql.9bp.spambait@phoenix.clouddancer.com>
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 01:00:50 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ah, well, Celtk uses FFI where LTk uses pipes, so that may help. OpenGL 
> of course would be the ultimate (leveraging the GPU) but then you have 
> to know OpenGL. The Tk canvas might be your best shot, tho OpenGL is a 
> joy results-wise.

Ah, thank you Kenny.

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Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <_H9Qg.1123$gQ7.180@newsfe08.lga>
GP lisper wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 01:00:50 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>Ah, well, Celtk uses FFI where LTk uses pipes, so that may help. OpenGL 
>>of course would be the ultimate (leveraging the GPU) but then you have 
>>to know OpenGL. The Tk canvas might be your best shot, tho OpenGL is a 
>>joy results-wise.
> 
> 
> Ah, thank you Kenny.
> 

GP! One of my ten users! You are welcome. For what? Celtk? FrankG (user 
#3) got the ball rolling on the Togl widget, which forced us to switch 
to FFI. That turned out to be dead easy (and the code is MIT or LLGPL 
(forget)), so I am surprised LTk has not swiped it back.

kenny

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: GP lisper
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <slrneh4rag.cfg.spambait@phoenix.clouddancer.com>
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 07:34:30 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> GP lisper wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 01:00:50 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>Ah, well, Celtk uses FFI where LTk uses pipes, so that may help. OpenGL 
>>>of course would be the ultimate (leveraging the GPU) but then you have 
>>>to know OpenGL. The Tk canvas might be your best shot, tho OpenGL is a 
>>>joy results-wise.
>> 
>> Ah, thank you Kenny.
>
> GP! One of my ten users! You are welcome. For what? Celtk? FrankG (user 
> #3) got the ball rolling on the Togl widget, which forced us to switch 
> to FFI. That turned out to be dead easy (and the code is MIT or LLGPL 
> (forget)), so I am surprised LTk has not swiped it back.

I've avoided learning anything about graphics toolkits, as I have seen
dozens come and go.  The quoted paragraph succinctly taught me the
differences between the current choices.  I picked Ltk right around
the time you showed up on their mailing lists.  When I get back to
needing graphics, I have at least a good starting point.

Ltk doesn't seem to have a dynamic development enviroment, just the
usual add-something-when-I-need-it method.  That's only an observation
BTW.

Oh, and the ticker-cells stuff might come back to life next year.

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From: Thomas F. Burdick
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <xcv4pv1nroa.fsf@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> GP lisper wrote:
> > On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 01:00:50 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>Ah, well, Celtk uses FFI where LTk uses pipes, so that may help. OpenGL 
> >>of course would be the ultimate (leveraging the GPU) but then you have 
> >>to know OpenGL. The Tk canvas might be your best shot, tho OpenGL is a 
> >>joy results-wise.
> > 
> > 
> > Ah, thank you Kenny.
> > 
> 
> GP! One of my ten users! You are welcome. For what? Celtk? FrankG (user 
> #3) got the ball rolling on the Togl widget, which forced us to switch 
> to FFI. That turned out to be dead easy (and the code is MIT or LLGPL 
> (forget)), so I am surprised LTk has not swiped it back.

Haven't gotten around to it yet, that's all.  If only there were
something work-related that Ltk wasn't fast enough for :-)
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <DmzQg.985$BO5.983@newsfe12.lga>
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>GP lisper wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 01:00:50 -0400, <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ah, well, Celtk uses FFI where LTk uses pipes, so that may help. OpenGL 
>>>>of course would be the ultimate (leveraging the GPU) but then you have 
>>>>to know OpenGL. The Tk canvas might be your best shot, tho OpenGL is a 
>>>>joy results-wise.
>>>
>>>
>>>Ah, thank you Kenny.
>>>
>>
>>GP! One of my ten users! You are welcome. For what? Celtk? FrankG (user 
>>#3) got the ball rolling on the Togl widget, which forced us to switch 
>>to FFI. That turned out to be dead easy (and the code is MIT or LLGPL 
>>(forget)), so I am surprised LTk has not swiped it back.
> 
> 
> Haven't gotten around to it yet, that's all.

Actually, I have to admit it might mean quite a rewrite of LTk 
application code. If so, it would be easier to just start using Celtk 
for new work and migrate existing apps to that.

>  If only there were
> something work-related that Ltk wasn't fast enough for :-)
> 

Won't happen. One's imagination silently conforms to the tools at hand. 
You won't even think of more sophisticated GUI tricks until you have a 
fast interface, true callbacks, direct access to the event stream, 
and... and... sorry, there was one more, lost it.

:)

ken

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Novus
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <2006092019051816807-novus@ngoqdeorg>
On 2006-09-17 00:25:36 -0400, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:
> er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme 
> guess... wx is the one you already know? makes sense.

Because I think cells-gtk sucks ass.

Novus
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: simple wxcl example?
Date: 
Message-ID: <s9lQg.70$KD6.35@newsfe09.lga>
Novus wrote:
> On 2006-09-17 00:25:36 -0400, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:
> 
>> er, um, wtf is wrong with cells-gtk, ltk, or celtk? hmmm, lemme 
>> guess... wx is the one you already know? makes sense.
> 
> 
> Because I think cells-gtk sucks ...

Looks good to me: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/

Is it Gtk you do not like, or Common Lisp?

ken

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon