Conrad wrote:
> Just renamed from LispDC- We're widening our net a bit :)
>
> Official Website: http://www.lisperati.com/fringedc.html
> First meeting: Sept 9th
I'm not keen on the name, as it sounds defeatist, and also like an
improv theater festival that we have annually in Seattle. But I
applaud the widening of your scope! It has helped SeaFunc to steadily
grow. Actually the LispSea offspin is looking moribund, which says
something about the value of widening one's tent.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
> I'm not keen on the name, as it sounds defeatist
You have a point- Usually it's a bad idea to use a term with negative
connotation to describe yourself... I just think the term aptly
describes the nature of what these languages represent at this moment
and I can't bring myself to use a more "positive" but less accurate
substitute (I'm sure Karl Rove would name his programming club
"FutureDC" or something :-)
I agree the name clash with the "fringe" theater festivals is also a
concern in this world of google, but hopefully these two uses are
distinct enough that this won't be a problem... Plus, if a little of
the count-culture aspect of those festivals rubs off on us, I'm OK with
that...
Great to hear that that SeaFunc is doing so well!
-Conrad
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: FringeDC- New Washington DC Fringe Programming Language Group
Date:
Message-ID: <pTYKg.2084$aE3.1850@newsfe09.lga>
Conrad wrote:
>>I'm not keen on the name, as it sounds defeatist
>
>
> You have a point- Usually it's a bad idea to use a term with negative
> connotation to describe yourself...
Try "Lunatic Fringe", or "Dead Languages Programming Society". Whoever
objected must be in my killfile, but they seem unaware that you stand in
good company when you embrace a pejorative -- that really pisses the
naysayers off. It shows a smug confidence in one's choice. That
absolutely terrifies the herd-following, lockstep-marching,
mainstream-saluting cowards that obediently dash out or online to scoop
up books on The Latest Thing. They learn and use atrocities like Java,
C++, XML, and even Python for the security it gives them and then sit
there slaving away miserably, tediously, joylously paying off mortgages
and supporting ungrateful teenagers who despise them, only to look out
the double-sealed thermo-pane windows of their central-heated,
sound-proofed, dead-bolted, suffocating little nests into the howling
gale thinking "what do they know that I do not know?" when they see us
under a lean-to hunched over our laptops to shield them from the rain
laughing our asses off as we write great code between bong hits.... what
was the question?
hth, kenny
ps. Just pick a good bar convenient to transportation. Plenty of
standing room, decent bar food available on ad hoc basis. Don't forget
to send out monthly reminders a few days in advance. LispNYC likes to
give about four hours notice and we have gotten some pushback on that.
k
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> Conrad wrote:
> >>I'm not keen on the name, as it sounds defeatist
> >
> >
> > You have a point- Usually it's a bad idea to use a term with negative
> > connotation to describe yourself...
>
> Try "Lunatic Fringe", or "Dead Languages Programming Society". Whoever
> objected must be in my killfile, but they seem unaware that you stand in
> good company when you embrace a pejorative -- that really pisses the
> naysayers off. It shows a smug confidence in one's choice. That
> absolutely terrifies the herd-following, lockstep-marching,
> mainstream-saluting cowards that obediently dash out or online to scoop
> up books on The Latest Thing. They learn and use atrocities like Java,
> C++, XML,
I agree on those 3, and I throw C# into the pit of flames to die among
them. I say as much on the SeaFunc homepage, although in more
diplomatic language. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeaFunc "If you
think there must be more to life than C++, Java, and C#, please join
us!"
> and even Python for the security it gives them and then sit
> there slaving away miserably, tediously, joylously paying off mortgages
> and supporting ungrateful teenagers who despise them, only to look out
> the double-sealed thermo-pane windows of their central-heated,
> sound-proofed, dead-bolted, suffocating little nests into the howling
> gale thinking "what do they know that I do not know?" when they see us
> under a lean-to hunched over our laptops to shield them from the rain
> laughing our asses off as we write great code between bong hits.... what
> was the question?
Python isn't in that same class of morbid languages. It's not Lisp,
but it is very appropriate if you want to, say, get 100 non-expert
programmers to bang on something. I've got evidence of game industry
*artists* using it, and I can't say that about any other language.
http://www.pygame.org/interview/stevemoret.shtml
> ps. Just pick a good bar convenient to transportation. Plenty of
> standing room, decent bar food available on ad hoc basis. Don't forget
> to send out monthly reminders a few days in advance. LispNYC likes to
> give about four hours notice and we have gotten some pushback on that.
Yeah, 4 hours is seriously irresponsible. The discipline with SeaFunc
is: meetings are every 3 weeks, so that's the ongoing expectation as
far as calendar watching. Meetings are announced 1 week in advance,
and then again typically the day before the meeting. We do not expect
busy programmers to be tracking all this stuff of their own accord, and
we are interested in growth, so we're disciplined about this sort of
thing.
Most of keeping a group alive and prospering, is about the group
leadership being disciplined. You show up to your own meetings. You
announce your own meetings regularly and at consistent times. You
choose consistent venues that most people can get to and are happy
with. It's not really that tough a drill, but it is a drill, and
slackers don't cut it as group leaders. If the group leader is
motivated to do the drill, i.e. he has ulterior motives for getting the
group to grow, then things go fine. Programmers are actually a pretty
easy species to get to come to meetings. They don't have much cultural
variance and they're used to moderate amounts of regimentation. If
they say they're coming, they're coming. If they don't, they're not.
They're not typically flakes, unlike artists. Gaaagh, artists!
Nuthin' but herdin' cats.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
Conrad wrote:
> > I'm not keen on the name, as it sounds defeatist
>
> You have a point- Usually it's a bad idea to use a term with negative
> connotation to describe yourself... I just think the term aptly
> describes the nature of what these languages represent at this moment
> and I can't bring myself to use a more "positive" but less accurate
> substitute (I'm sure Karl Rove would name his programming club
> "FutureDC" or something :-)
>
> I agree the name clash with the "fringe" theater festivals is also a
> concern in this world of google, but hopefully these two uses are
> distinct enough that this won't be a problem... Plus, if a little of
> the count-culture aspect of those festivals rubs off on us, I'm OK with
> that...
If it had been proposed as a name instead of SeaFunc, I would have
vetoed it, on the grounds that I wanted "suits" to take SeaFunc
seriously. The perception of counter-cultural "cool" vs. threat /
goof-off is a fine line. "Fringe" doesn't connote being responsible.
If you wanted to steal a page from our book, you could be "DCFunc."
Gotta admit it's catchy. Rationale: most of the fringe languages
listed on your excellent webpage art are Functional languages. Those
that aren't, well, the FP guys lump 'em all together as far as what
they're interested in talking about. There aren't enough Predicate
Logic programmers out there to form their own viable industry groups.
Heck, even Haskell doesn't seem to be able to form viable industry
groups.
Anyways, of course you need to decide your own identity and direction.
Really, my view of SeaFunc is "the advanced programming languages
group," without prejudice as to just how FP something is. I used to
believe that FP held promise, but I don't anymore. It's just a
paradigm, useful for some things and a major detriment for others, and
there's no money in it. I started out on the impure side of things
with OCaml, and I moved to even more impure with Scheme.
> Great to hear that that SeaFunc is doing so well!
Yeah, well enough. My disappointment is that nobody has
entrepreneurial / business energy for SeaFunc itself. If they have
that kind of energy, they're using it in startups. But the
intellectual glue of the group is solid, as is the meeting model, i.e.
eat food, drink beer. So we enjoy slow and steady growth.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
> If it had been proposed as a name instead of SeaFunc, I would have
> vetoed it, on the grounds that I wanted "suits" to take SeaFunc
> seriously. The perception of counter-cultural "cool" vs. threat /
> goof-off is a fine line. "Fringe" doesn't connote being responsible.
I think it's pretty acceptable nowadays to have goofy names for serious
computer stuff- Yahoo!, Wiki, Splunk, Google :)
...but I want to emphasize fun/social stuff anyway for now- Maybe if I
had any aspirations for business interest, I would pick something more
conservative...
On 3 Sep 2006 10:00:39 -0700
"Mallor" <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Conrad wrote:
> > Just renamed from LispDC- We're widening our net a bit :)
> >
> > Official Website: http://www.lisperati.com/fringedc.html
> > First meeting: Sept 9th
>
> I'm not keen on the name, as it sounds defeatist, and also like an
> improv theater festival that we have annually in Seattle. But I
I dunno. "Fringe" is something proximate to the "Bleeding Edge" but
not exactly on it ;)
Dhu
> applaud the widening of your scope! It has helped SeaFunc to steadily
> grow. Actually the LispSea offspin is looking moribund, which says
> something about the value of widening one's tent.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Brandon Van Every
>
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From: Bruce Horrocks
Subject: Re: FringeDC- New Washington DC Fringe Programming Language Group
Date:
Message-ID: <4maifuF5ao4dU1@individual.net>
Duncan Patton wrote:
> I dunno. "Fringe" is something proximate to the "Bleeding Edge" but
> not exactly on it ;)
A fringe is also something that covers your eyes and makes it difficult
to see clearly. :-/
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
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