From: jmckitrick
Subject: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1161973995.643669.185320@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
switched?

From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2zmbhblox.fsf@jec18-66.dynamic.rpi.edu>
"jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:

> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?

Why is it attacked anywhere?
From: jmckitrick
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1161978698.963054.313970@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
On Oct 27, 3:30 pm, Bill Atkins <······@rpi.edu> wrote:
> "jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> > I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> > often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> > switched?Why is it attacked anywhere?

I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
target on Reddit.  Just wondering why.
From: Ron Garret
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <rNOSPAMon-8D6504.13143627102006@news.gha.chartermi.net>
In article <························@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
 "jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Oct 27, 3:30 pm, Bill Atkins <······@rpi.edu> wrote:
> > "jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> > > often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> > > switched?Why is it attacked anywhere?
> 
> I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
> target on Reddit.  Just wondering why.

Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator.  And because they famously 
abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.

rg
From: jmckitrick
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1161982069.970924.169790@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
On Oct 27, 4:14 pm, Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
> > I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
> > target on Reddit.  Just wondering why.

> Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator.  And because they famously
> abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.

I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
it?  Are they pro-Python?  Anti-Lisp?
From: jmckitrick
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1161981461.361585.271180@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
On Oct 27, 4:14 pm, Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
> > I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
> > target on Reddit.  Just wondering why.

> Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator.  And because they famously
> abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.

I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
it?  Are they pro-Python?  Anti-Lisp?
From: ·······@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1161994085.720772.195310@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
jmckitrick wrote:
> On Oct 27, 4:14 pm, Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
> > > I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
> > > target on Reddit.  Just wondering why.
>
> > Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator.  And because they famously
> > abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.
>
> I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
> it?  Are they pro-Python?  Anti-Lisp?

You seriously don't know why Y-Combinator's funding matters?

Go here:
http://www.paulgraham.com/summerfounder.html
From: jmckitrick
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162007196.524265.212060@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
On Oct 27, 8:08 pm, ·······@gmail.com wrote:
> > I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
> > it?  Are they pro-Python?  Anti-Lisp?

> You seriously don't know why Y-Combinator's funding matters?
>
> Go here:http://www.paulgraham.com/summerfounder.html


Ah.  I did not know that.  If anyone had said 'PG's company' I would
have gotten that.  :-)
I just didn't know that was the connection.  Thanks.
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2d58d5qsw.fsf@weedle-24.dynamic.rpi.edu>
"jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Oct 27, 4:14 pm, Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
>> > I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
>> > target on Reddit.  Just wondering why.
>
>> Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator.  And because they famously
>> abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.
>
> I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
> it?  Are they pro-Python?  Anti-Lisp?

It doesn't matter?
From: ·············@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162068194.961021.122010@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
jmckitrick wrote:
> On Oct 27, 4:14 pm, Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
> > > I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
> > > target on Reddit.  Just wondering why.
>
> > Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator.  And because they famously
> > abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.
>
> I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
> it?  Are they pro-Python?  Anti-Lisp?

Neither. Python drives me nuts, and I miss Lisp, but I'm not the only
person working on reddit, so we use what we can collectively use best.

steve @ reddit
From: Alok
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <uejsrgbdh.fsf@invalid.invalid>
·············@gmail.com writes:
> jmckitrick wrote:
> > I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
> > it?  Are they pro-Python?  Anti-Lisp?
> 
> Neither. Python drives me nuts, and I miss Lisp, but I'm not the only
> person working on reddit, so we use what we can collectively use best.
> 
> steve @ reddit
One fine day some time ago I downloaded a shiny new version of a language, 
which is named after a fat reptile, that I had read a lot of good about.
Sure enough it came with a lot of goodies and I enthusiastically fired it
up. Tinkered a little and wanted to quit. So I keyed in

>>> ^D
... error invalid syntax. ...
>>> bye
... not defined ...
>>> quit
use quit() ...
>>> exit
use exit() ...
>>> ^Z
c:/>

Ok I get that "There's only one way to do it", but it sure sucks like a 
grumpy old geezer. Never had to meet the geezer again.
Alok
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <op.th6egpvzpqzri1@pandora.upc.no>
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:27:06 +0100, Alok <·····@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>>>> ^D
> ... error invalid syntax. ...
>>>> bye
> ... not defined ...
>>>> quit
> use quit() ...
>>>> exit
> use exit() ...
>>>> ^Z
> c:/>
>
> Ok I get that "There's only one way to do it", but it sure sucks like a
> grumpy old geezer. Never had to meet the geezer again.
> Alok

Makes perfect sense to me.
For one thing you rarely use (or rather develop using) Python from the  
command line.
It is primarily used in a shell within emacs.
It's primary purpose is to execute python commands.
In this case quit() gets you out as it advices.
If you are that easily deterred it's all you..

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
From: Alok
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <uhcxnfo9z.fsf@invalid.invalid>
"John Thingstad" <··············@chello.no> writes:

> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:27:06 +0100, Alok <·····@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
> >>>> ^D
> > ... error invalid syntax. ...
> >>>> bye
> > ... not defined ...
> >>>> quit
> > use quit() ...
> >>>> exit
> > use exit() ...
> >>>> ^Z
> > c:/>
> >
> > Ok I get that "There's only one way to do it", but it sure sucks like a
> > grumpy old geezer. Never had to meet the geezer again.
> > Alok
> 
> Makes perfect sense to me.
> For one thing you rarely use (or rather develop using) Python from the
> command line.
> It is primarily used in a shell within emacs.
Does Python have a slime/swank like capability too? What emacs shell do you 
use for Python?

> It's primary purpose is to execute python commands.
> In this case quit() gets you out as it advices.
> If you are that easily deterred it's all you..
Hey maybe its me, but I was not deterred. I was plain annoyed. The reader
would parse exit, quit ^D but still not do what is expected. Heck, it knew
what I wanted and but still refused to execute the command until I spelled
what it wants to hear. Heck even ^Z did not work a ^Z and an enter had to be
typed. If that is not grumpy, I don't know what is.
> 
> -- 
> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
From: Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <871worzawz.fsf@qrnik.zagroda>
Alok <·····@invalid.invalid> writes:

> I was plain annoyed. The reader would parse exit, quit ^D but still
> not do what is expected.

It parses exit as a variable name, which refers to a funcallable object
whose string representation contains the explanation.

exit doesn't work in SBCL either:

* exit

debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE in thread
#<THREAD "initial thread" {A6893C1}>:
  The variable EXIT is unbound.

Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:QUIT) to exit from SBCL.

restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
  0: [ABORT] Exit debugger, returning to top level.

(SB-INT:EVAL-IN-LEXENV EXIT #<NULL-LEXENV>)

nor CLISP. Do you expect the SBCL and CLISP readers to treat "exit"
specially? Why do you expect this from Python but not from Lisp?

^D works on Unix. It's not processed by Python but by the Unix
terminal driver.

> Heck even ^Z did not work a ^Z and an enter had to be typed.

Complain to Microsoft. This is a "feature" of Windows terminal driver,
Python has nothing to do with it except by using the standard I/O
facilities provided by the OS.

-- 
   __("<         Marcin Kowalczyk
   \__/       ······@knm.org.pl
    ^^     http://qrnik.knm.org.pl/~qrczak/
From: Alok
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <uu01mkccq.fsf@invalid.invalid>
Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk <······@knm.org.pl> writes:

> Alok <·····@invalid.invalid> writes:
> 
> > I was plain annoyed. The reader would parse exit, quit ^D but still
> > not do what is expected.
> 
> It parses exit as a variable name, which refers to a funcallable object
> whose string representation contains the explanation.
> 
> exit doesn't work in SBCL either:
> 
> * exit
> 
> debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE in thread
> #<THREAD "initial thread" {A6893C1}>:
>   The variable EXIT is unbound.
> 
> Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:QUIT) to exit from SBCL.
> 
> restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
>   0: [ABORT] Exit debugger, returning to top level.
> 
> (SB-INT:EVAL-IN-LEXENV EXIT #<NULL-LEXENV>)
> 
> nor CLISP. Do you expect the SBCL and CLISP readers to treat "exit"
> specially? Why do you expect this from Python but not from Lisp?
> 
I have always used ^D on the CLISP impl. with readline on my WinXP
machine. And actually never used a plain CLISP shell much anyway.

I take your point that it would be non-intuitive to parse the exit 
token to shutdown the reader, when the EOF signal already exists just 
for this. But why is the exit token mapped to the funcallable object with
a string representation that informs how to exit, instead of leaving it
unbound and print a regular error message.

My point is, when an reader is asked to exit, it should exit, or carp
it does not know what is meant. Anything halfway (or one and a half way) 
is not intuitive.

> ^D works on Unix. It's not processed by Python but by the Unix
> terminal driver.
> 
> > Heck even ^Z did not work a ^Z and an enter had to be typed.
> 
> Complain to Microsoft. This is a "feature" of Windows terminal driver,
> Python has nothing to do with it except by using the standard I/O
> facilities provided by the OS.
You're right, this is appears to be standard windows terminal behaviour
 and I had wrongly associated the EOF signal irregularity with Python's
command line terminal. My bad, I was under false impression that the
Python reader came with its own term (Most win programs in a command
line window that I have used, don't set-up their special icon on it)

Alok
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <op.th6wjirnpqzri1@pandora.upc.no>
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:46:00 +0100, Alok <·····@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Does Python have a slime/swank like capability too? What emacs shell do  
> you
> use for Python?
>

python-mode for editing files.
py-shell run's the python interpreter.


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
From: pTymN
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1161979195.205883.131620@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
Its the parenthesis, mostly. That's the first thing that stops the
people that I show it to.

Interestingly, there is also a fair amount of AGILE IS GREAT AND DIE
FOR SAYING ITS NOT BEST PRACTICE DESIGN PATTERN LEET.

That said, I doubt that there ever were as many republicans as there
were independants who favored the republican philosphy of 15 years ago
slightly over the democratic rheteric, but really just wanted someone
to say, geez, let's legalize pot. :-P

Also, fear of the unknown (Lisp, Muslims) would seem to be a good
enough reason to hate something instead of understand it, and then
choose to rationally hate it.
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <871woih10z.fsf@david-steuber.com>
"pTymN" <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Interestingly, there is also a fair amount of AGILE IS GREAT AND DIE
> FOR SAYING ITS NOT BEST PRACTICE DESIGN PATTERN LEET.

So what prevents Lisp from the alleged agile programming paradigm?

Lisp is killed by false beliefs and parentheses.  Oddly enough, I just
can't get passed the use of white space as significant.  I also hate
make files.

With all the time I've spent in SLIME which rocks, I often think that
Kenny Tilton has a very good point about development systems.  The
free software crowd is too obsessed with beer (my words, not his).
Most of the Windows developers don't seem to be paying for the full
cost of Visual Studio or a universal MSDN subscription.

Apple developers get some very good GUI tools to wrap the GNU compiler
collection for free.

So the bar is pretty high considering so many programmers don't like
to experiment so much.  How many people ask about Lisp IDEs or plugins
for Eclipse when the former are quite available?

Mind you, I like using the free tools.  SBCL is bitchen with SLIME.  I
love that I can run SBCL on a different box from my SLIME session.  So
I've got my biases too.

-- 
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
   --- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
  --- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <Nqh3h.8154$t14.3545@newsfe09.lga>
David Steuber wrote:
> "pTymN" <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Interestingly, there is also a fair amount of AGILE IS GREAT AND DIE
>>FOR SAYING ITS NOT BEST PRACTICE DESIGN PATTERN LEET.
> 
> 
> So what prevents Lisp from the alleged agile programming paradigm?
> 
> Lisp is killed by false beliefs and parentheses. 

Rubbish. Given the fact that Lisp is growing by leaps and bounds, this 
report of it's being killed greatly exagerates.

> Oddly enough, I just
> can't get passed the use of white space as significant.  I also hate
> make files.
> 
> With all the time I've spent in SLIME which rocks, I often think that
> Kenny Tilton has a very good point about development systems.

Oh, gosh, sorry about the "rubbish" crack!

>  The
> free software crowd is too obsessed with beer (my words, not his).
> Most of the Windows developers don't seem to be paying for the full
> cost of Visual Studio or a universal MSDN subscription.
> 
> Apple developers get some very good GUI tools to wrap the GNU compiler
> collection for free.
> 
> So the bar is pretty high considering so many programmers don't like
> to experiment so much.  How many people ask about Lisp IDEs or plugins
> for Eclipse when the former are quite available?
> 
> Mind you, I like using the free tools.  SBCL is bitchen with SLIME.

Lisp-NYC really does have to host a Kenny vs. The Slimeballs Smackdown 
some month, him with ACL and them with SBCL/Slime. Just to make it fair 
we gotta find a slimeball as smart as kenny... uh-oh.

kt (who just discovered that the Tcl Snack library has no problem with 
the WAV files that seem to knock OpenAl to its knees, and since Snack 
also handles four other formats OpenAL has not a clue with what to do -- 
Mastenbrook will be crushed to learn Cello is /losing/ a library!)

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m24pte54cm.fsf@weedle-24.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Lisp-NYC really does have to host a Kenny vs. The Slimeballs Smackdown
> some month, him with ACL and them with SBCL/Slime. Just to make it
> fair we gotta find a slimeball as smart as kenny... uh-oh.

Perfect.  I'll be there with LispWorks.  :-)
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <rIp3h.1164$AQ6.219@newsfe11.lga>
Bill Atkins wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Lisp-NYC really does have to host a Kenny vs. The Slimeballs Smackdown
>>some month, him with ACL and them with SBCL/Slime. Just to make it
>>fair we gotta find a slimeball as smart as kenny... uh-oh.
> 
> 
> Perfect.  I'll be there with LispWorks.  :-)

Wait, this is a smackdown, we have to rehearse.

Seriously. And we gotta dig up Russ, because I know he loves Slime. What 
I want to do is have a planning session where we spend a few pitchers, 
er, hours trying to one-up each other, then once we have a decent suite 
of face-offs present that in a more efficient manner, with judges 
scoring each face-off.

Be an easy way for me to learn Slime (and mebbe get Franz to enhance 
their IDE).

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Russell McManus
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <87zmb5fyr5.fsf@cl-user.org>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Seriously. And we gotta dig up Russ, because I know he loves Slime.

Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...

-russ
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2mz75o7vt.fsf@bell-24.dynamic2.rpi.edu>
Russell McManus <·····@cl-user.org> writes:

> Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
> Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
> pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...

This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs (this is also
why ACL has lost the showdown before it's even begun :-).  Even
without lw-add-ons, LispWorks's editor *is* an Emacs - an Emacs in
Common Lisp, to boot.  lw-add-ons just brings some of SLIME's ideas
into the editor.
From: Zach Beane
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m3slgxv7d1.fsf@unnamed.xach.com>
Bill Atkins <······@rpi.edu> writes:

> Russell McManus <·····@cl-user.org> writes:
> 
> > Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
> > Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
> > pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...
> 
> This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs (this is also
> why ACL has lost the showdown before it's even begun :-).  Even
> without lw-add-ons, LispWorks's editor *is* an Emacs - an Emacs in
> Common Lisp, to boot.  lw-add-ons just brings some of SLIME's ideas
> into the editor.

Allegro's ELI predates slime by a long, long time.

Zach
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <edw3h.1318$IL7.834@newsfe12.lga>
Bill Atkins wrote:
> Russell McManus <·····@cl-user.org> writes:
> 
> 
>>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
>>Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
>>pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...
> 
> 
> This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs

Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.

(round one to kenny)

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m27iy863qa.fsf@weedle-24.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.
>
> (round one to kenny)
>
> kt

Uh oh, it looks like my barely marginal familiarity with the ACL IDE
is going to work against me after all!
From: Andras Simon
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <vcdvelre1on.fsf@csusza.math.bme.hu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Bill Atkins wrote:
> > Russell McManus <·····@cl-user.org> writes:
> >
> >>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
> >>Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
> >>pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...
> > This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs
> 
> Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.

Will that enable dired, ediff, vc-diff, split-window, dabbrev-expand,
keyboard macros, query-replace-regexp etc? Will it connect to a
remotely running lisp? Is its programming interface documented? Emacs
is not just a set of key bindings.

This is not to say that the ACL IDE doesn't have tons of useful things
that emacs/slime currently lacks. (Although, if you ask me, slime
already has tons of useful features that I don't care about... fuzzy
completion and presentations come to mind.) If you want to know how
constrained a slimer would feel using ACL's IDE, just imagine yourself
using slime.

Andras
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1A34h.9$Ky6.0@newsfe11.lga>
Andras Simon wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Bill Atkins wrote:
>>
>>>Russell McManus <·····@cl-user.org> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
>>>>Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
>>>>pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...
>>>
>>>This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs
>>
>>Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.
> 
> 
> Will that enable dired, ediff, vc-diff, split-window, dabbrev-expand,
> keyboard macros, query-replace-regexp etc? Will it connect to a
> remotely running lisp? Is its programming interface documented? Emacs
> is not just a set of key bindings.

Yes, Andras, I think we all know that, and Mr. Atkins was free to pursue 
that line of ....... you miserable toad! You come into my house with 
those pointless features! You and what other tools are going to kick 
ACL's ass? One more step and the ACL project manager rips ASDF a new one!!!!

> 
> This is not to say that the ACL IDE doesn't have tons of useful things
> that emacs/slime currently lacks. (Although, if you ask me, slime
> already has tons of useful features that I don't care about... fuzzy
> completion and presentations come to mind.) If you want to know how
> constrained a slimer would feel using ACL's IDE, just imagine yourself
> using slime.

<cough> Actually, that was the point of the Smackdown, education of 
everyone about Slime and the AllegroCL IDE. Perhaps you missed the 
beginning of the subthread? It happens.

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Andras Simon
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <vcdr6weeusv.fsf@csusza.math.bme.hu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Andras Simon wrote:
> > Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >>Bill Atkins wrote:
> >>
> >>>Russell McManus <·····@cl-user.org> writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
> >>>>Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
> >>>>pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...
> >>>
> >>>This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs
> >>
> >>Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.
> > Will that enable dired, ediff, vc-diff, split-window, dabbrev-expand,
> > keyboard macros, query-replace-regexp etc? Will it connect to a
> > remotely running lisp? Is its programming interface documented? Emacs
> > is not just a set of key bindings.
> 
> Yes, Andras, I think we all know that, and Mr. Atkins was free to
> pursue that line of 

He speaks for the LW IDE, and its editor is also not a true emacs,
maybe that's why.

>                     ....... you miserable toad! You come into my house
> with those pointless features! You and what other tools are going to
> kick ACL's ass? One more step and the ACL project manager rips ASDF a
> new one!!!!

Sorry, I must admit you lost me here (linguistic barrier or some
such).

> 
> > This is not to say that the ACL IDE doesn't have tons of useful
> > things
> > that emacs/slime currently lacks. (Although, if you ask me, slime
> > already has tons of useful features that I don't care about... fuzzy
> > completion and presentations come to mind.) If you want to know how
> > constrained a slimer would feel using ACL's IDE, just imagine yourself
> > using slime.
> 
> <cough> Actually, that was the point of the Smackdown, education of
> everyone about Slime and the AllegroCL IDE. Perhaps you missed the
> beginning of the subthread? It happens.

Oh, I needn't miss the beginning to miss the point! Anyways, have a
nice Smackdown!

Andras
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <nzb4h.86$ng.4@newsfe10.lga>
Andras Simon wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Andras Simon wrote:
>>
>>>Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill Atkins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Russell McManus <·····@cl-user.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs.  And slime tastes like
>>>>>>Emacs so I love that.  I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
>>>>>>pretty Emacs like.  I really should give that a whirl...
>>>>>
>>>>>This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs
>>>>
>>>>Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.
>>>
>>>Will that enable dired, ediff, vc-diff, split-window, dabbrev-expand,
>>>keyboard macros, query-replace-regexp etc? Will it connect to a
>>>remotely running lisp? Is its programming interface documented? Emacs
>>>is not just a set of key bindings.
>>
>>Yes, Andras, I think we all know that, and Mr. Atkins was free to
>>pursue that line of 
> 
> 
> He speaks for the LW IDE, and its editor is also not a true emacs,
> maybe that's why.

Wow. What part of "it's not Emacs" did I misunderstand?

> 
> 
>>                    ....... you miserable toad! You come into my house
>>with those pointless features! You and what other tools are going to
>>kick ACL's ass? One more step and the ACL project manager rips ASDF a
>>new one!!!!
> 
> 
> Sorry, I must admit you lost me here (linguistic barrier or some
> such).

I guess they do not carry WWF in your homeland. They string out the 
shows with trash-talking before/after/during the fighting. I would use 
antlers but they /are/ pretty good athletes (and I do not want to get my 
ears boxed by dissing them).

> 
> 
>>>This is not to say that the ACL IDE doesn't have tons of useful
>>>things
>>>that emacs/slime currently lacks. (Although, if you ask me, slime
>>>already has tons of useful features that I don't care about... fuzzy
>>>completion and presentations come to mind.) If you want to know how
>>>constrained a slimer would feel using ACL's IDE, just imagine yourself
>>>using slime.
>>
>><cough> Actually, that was the point of the Smackdown, education of
>>everyone about Slime and the AllegroCL IDE. Perhaps you missed the
>>beginning of the subthread? It happens.
> 
> 
> Oh, I needn't miss the beginning to miss the point! Anyways, have a
> nice Smackdown!

I guess I am still looking for a worthy opponent. If only we could get 
Russ to come out of retirement. Six-four, fourteen stone, laser rocket 
arm* -- damn, I should be careful what I wish for before I go stand on 
his lawn and call him out**.

kt

* Reference to a current funny ad involving the top (American) football 
quarterback in disguise bragging on himself.

** A young Muhammad Ali (still named Cassius Clay) doing his best to 
land (and successfully so) a fight (he won) with the heavyweight boxing 
champion, Sonny Liston.

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m23b8u1nw5.fsf@weedle-24.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> I guess I am still looking for a worthy opponent. If only we could get
> Russ to come out of retirement. Six-four, fourteen stone, laser rocket
> arm* -- damn, I should be careful what I wish for before I go stand on
> his lawn and call him out**.

I haven't surrendered yet - the fact that ACL has Emacs an Emacs mode
does not frighten me or LispWorks.
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m24ptalcmp.fsf@weedle-24.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Andras Simon <······@math.bme.hu> writes:

> He speaks for the LW IDE, and its editor is also not a true emacs,

Not a true emacs?  Really?
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <qle4h.69$Ky6.42@newsfe11.lga>
Bill Atkins wrote:
> Andras Simon <······@math.bme.hu> writes:
> 
> 
>>He speaks for the LW IDE, and its editor is also not a true emacs,
> 
> 
> Not a true emacs?  Really?

Nope, Hemlock.

kenny 2, bill 0... if this was a fight, they would stop it.

:)

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Andras Simon
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <vcdmz72e5c8.fsf@csusza.math.bme.hu>
Bill Atkins <······@rpi.edu> writes:

> Andras Simon <······@math.bme.hu> writes:
> 
> > He speaks for the LW IDE, and its editor is also not a true emacs,
> 
> Not a true emacs?  Really?

At least not to me, sorry! It has the potential, but... no dired &al,
and I just can't live without those.

Andras
From: Bill Atkins
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2zmb1sv9o.fsf@weedle-24.dynamic.rpi.edu>
Andras Simon <······@math.bme.hu> writes:

> Bill Atkins <······@rpi.edu> writes:
>
>> Andras Simon <······@math.bme.hu> writes:
>> 
>> > He speaks for the LW IDE, and its editor is also not a true emacs,
>> 
>> Not a true emacs?  Really?
>
> At least not to me, sorry! It has the potential, but... no dired &al,
> and I just can't live without those.
>
> Andras

Well, I still spend a lot of time in Emacs proper.  But in the same
way that LispWorks doesn't have dired or the vc-* commands, Emacs +
SLIME don't have all the Lisp-related features that LW has.  They
complement each other.
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <2gj3h.15599$j7.333462@news.indigo.ie>
Ken Tilton wrote:


> kt (who just discovered that the Tcl Snack library has no problem with
> the WAV files that seem to knock OpenAl to its knees, and since Snack
> also handles four other formats OpenAL has not a clue with what to do

The point of OpenAL is to do 3D spatial audio (and it does it quite
nicely).  file loading and saving isn't really even part of it OpenAL
proper, that's ALUT.  Support beyond a well-chosen few* is pretty
irrelevant. 

*That would probably include _some_ wavs: But note it's particularly
easy to make a problematic wav file, all most applications do is
support a subset of wav files that are "nice":
http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm
- closed-source windoze applications are the worst for this,
often outputting wav files with obscure chunks that only work
right in themselves or perhaps libraries that make a point of supporting
the wav format in all its "glory" - I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
format" - OpenGL/GLUT doesn't try to support every format under the sun
either.












 
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <VCp3h.1163$AQ6.125@newsfe11.lga>
David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>kt (who just discovered that the Tcl Snack library has no problem with
>>the WAV files that seem to knock OpenAl to its knees, and since Snack
>>also handles four other formats OpenAL has not a clue with what to do
> 
> 
> The point of OpenAL is to do 3D spatial audio (and it does it quite
> nicely).

Yes, I think OpenAL lives on in Cello for that reason, and also because 
it is so lightweight. Mastenbrook will be thrilled.

>  file loading and saving isn't really even part of it OpenAL
> proper, that's ALUT.

No quibbling allowed.

>  Support beyond a well-chosen few* is pretty
> irrelevant. 

Oh, goody, here comes the Turing equivalent argument!

> 
> *That would probably include _some_ wavs: But note it's particularly
> easy to make a problematic wav file, all most applications do is
> support a subset of wav files that are "nice":
> http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm
> - closed-source windoze applications are the worst for this,
> often outputting wav files with obscure chunks that only work
> right in themselves or perhaps libraries that make a point of supporting
> the wav format in all its "glory"

You mean like Snack? Because it has not failed on a WAV file yet and I 
am downloading them from some pretty sketchy sites.

> - I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
> would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
> format" 

You mean like Snack, which can load a file in one format and save in 
another? I think we agree: Snack is a useful library and OpenAL is a 
useful library if I am looking for extra aggravation rather than the 
developers having to finish their job. the nice thing about the OpenAL 
approach is that /everyone/ using it gets to do extra work over and over 
again.

Just kidding. I appreciate that OpenAL's focus is on the 3D thing, and 
with my 5.1 speakers it sounds great.

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <oHq3h.15642$j7.333509@news.indigo.ie>
Ken Tilton wrote:

> No quibbling allowed.

Oh, go on, just a little:

ALUT was formally separated out a while back, so the distinction is
increasingly rather than decreasingly important as OpenAL and ALUT no
longer necessarily share one release cycle.   There are still
old "combo" releases out in the wild (causing grief, because they had
to bite the bullet and break binary backward compat to reverse the
unfortunate initial choice of munging the two together).  If your
openal and alut _are_ mixed together, you might well be using an
obsolete release, could happen if the last time you visited the openal
site was more than a few months ago!

Even still, I wouldn't guarantee the freealut devs have done
a particularly "complete" wav support job, I haven't really
investigated, I imagine most people just care that the most common wav
subformat for sound effects (16-bit PCM wav I'd say) works. This is
even touched on in the alut spec, which at least defines behaviour in
the unsupported wav subformat case:
http://www.openal.org/openal_webstf/specs/alut.html#alutGetMIMETypes

> You mean like Snack? Because it has not failed on a WAV file yet and I
> am downloading them from some pretty sketchy sites.
> 
[Sorry, just out of interest: "sketchy" here means "bad/disreputable"? 
Usage of "sketchy" here (Ireland) means, well, "like a sketch", "yet to
be 'inked in'" , e.g. "details are pretty sketchy at the moment". So of
course a site could be "sketchy", incomplete, but that doesn't mean it
would necessarily have bad wavs in the bizarre-format sense]

>> - I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
>> would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
>> format"
> 
> You mean like Snack, which can load a file in one format and save in
> another? 

Well, yeah, in principle.  Thoguh libsndfile also exists and does a
pretty good job, and is probably smaller and easier to ffi-bridge to
lisp if you really just want to load and save the full spectrum of wavs
http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/
(lgpl licensed though, dunno where you'd stand on that)
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <CCs3h.68$IL7.23@newsfe12.lga>
David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
>>No quibbling allowed.
> 
> 
> Oh, go on, just a little:
> 
> ALUT was formally separated out a while back, so the distinction is
> increasingly rather than decreasingly important as OpenAL and ALUT no
> longer necessarily share one release cycle.   There are still
> old "combo" releases out in the wild (causing grief, because they had
> to bite the bullet and break binary backward compat to reverse the
> unfortunate initial choice of munging the two together).  If your
> openal and alut _are_ mixed together, you might well be using an
> obsolete release, could happen if the last time you visited the openal
> site was more than a few months ago!

(> 3-years 3-months) -> T?

I was wondering if I should try an upgrade, but I never got the sense 
that OpenAL was even active. Checking the site I see it is just starting 
to pick up steam.

> 
> Even still, I wouldn't guarantee the freealut devs have done
> a particularly "complete" wav support job, I haven't really
> investigated, I imagine most people just care that the most common wav
> subformat for sound effects (16-bit PCM wav I'd say) works. This is
> even touched on in the alut spec, which at least defines behaviour in
> the unsupported wav subformat case:
> http://www.openal.org/openal_webstf/specs/alut.html#alutGetMIMETypes
> 
> 
>>You mean like Snack? Because it has not failed on a WAV file yet and I
>>am downloading them from some pretty sketchy sites.
>>
> 
> [Sorry, just out of interest: "sketchy" here means "bad/disreputable"? 

It's a new usage amongst the young folk over here in the colonies. More 
like "of dubious morality or integrity or safety". Hang on... ok, one 
web site suggests you Brits would translate it as "dodgy".

> Usage of "sketchy" here (Ireland) means, well, "like a sketch", "yet to
> be 'inked in'" , e.g. "details are pretty sketchy at the moment". So of
> course a site could be "sketchy", incomplete, but that doesn't mean it
> would necessarily have bad wavs in the bizarre-format sense]
> 
> 
>>>- I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
>>>would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
>>>format"
>>
>>You mean like Snack, which can load a file in one format and save in
>>another? 
> 
> 
> Well, yeah, in principle.  Thoguh libsndfile also exists and does a
> pretty good job, and is probably smaller and easier to ffi-bridge to
> lisp...

FFI? PWUAHAHAHAHHAHA!:

    (tcl-eval *tk* "snack::sound s -load /alg1/sounds/errors/fart42.wav")
    (tcl-eval *tk* "s play")

The beauty of Celtk is that I have the C API when I need it (OpenGL, 
callbacks, true event handlers (aside to TFB the Younger: Odd, I did not 
mention performance. (hint))) and tcl-eval when i am too lazy to cook up 
bindings, as with the Snack dll.

> if you really just want to load and save the full spectrum of wavs
> http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/
> (lgpl licensed though, dunno where you'd stand on that)

I think I LLGPLed everything recently.

Thx for the heads up on OpenAL. Game developer?

Upgrading OpenAL now....

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <l3v3h.15667$j7.332934@news.indigo.ie>
Ken Tilton wrote:

> you Brits  

Ooh... Insert obligatory "Irish, not British" rant here...

> would translate it as "dodgy". 

Fair enough. "dodgy" is in wide usage over here...

> and tcl-eval when i am too lazy to 
> cook up bindings, as with the Snack dll.

Well, I guess that is pretty handy.  TCL's in an "uncanny valley" 
just before lisp for me though, creepy writing in it. :-)

> Game developer? 

Maybe one day. Largely dependent on actually finishing 
something started once in a while, rather than anything
external, of course.

> Upgrading OpenAL now....
 
Good good. If it's really been literally years since your
last update, there have probably been a fair few improvements.
Capture device support might be fun if you haven't played
with it before, in OpenAL 1.1 (June 2005) it's part of the core.
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <Iyw3h.1773$jg4.49@newsfe09.lga>
David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
>>you Brits  
> 
> 
> Ooh... Insert obligatory "Irish, not British" rant here...

I was going to make fun of you but then I checked -- Omigod! Scotland 
and Wales, but not Ireland! Altho /Northern Ireland/ takes a hit. So WTF 
is Ireland's status? Colony? Occupied territory? Satellite? Are you in 
the UN? Nato? This is all very confusing.

> 
> 
>>would translate it as "dodgy". 
> 
> 
> Fair enough. "dodgy" is in wide usage over here...
> 
> 
>>and tcl-eval when i am too lazy to 
>>cook up bindings, as with the Snack dll.
> 
> 
> Well, I guess that is pretty handy.  TCL's in an "uncanny valley" 
> just before lisp for me though, creepy writing in it. :-)

I can handle cutting/pasting 40 characters from the Snack tutorial. :)

> 
> 
>>Game developer? 
> 
> 
> Maybe one day. Largely dependent on actually finishing 
> something started once in a while, rather than anything
> external, of course.

Typical Lispnik.

It is pretty interesting now using my Cello (and Cells (and Lisp)) toy 
to do An Actual Commercial Application -- almost indecently easy. Makes 
up for the internal logic almost killing me a few times.

I keep telling youse people, go to a cocktail party, wait for someone 
smart to start whining about the damn vertical app they have to use, and 
voila!, startup!

> 
> 
>>Upgrading OpenAL now....
> 
>  
> Good good. If it's really been literally years since your
> last update, there have probably been a fair few improvements.
> Capture device support might be fun if you haven't played
> with it before, in OpenAL 1.1 (June 2005) it's part of the core.

June 2005? They count months differently in Ireland. Yeah, fortunately I 
buy a new system once a year and re-install tools from web sites so I 
never fall /that/ far behind.

Anyway, I just figured out why the galloping horse passing from my left 
to my right sounded so godawful as it passed me -- I was having it pass 
directly /over/ me. Perhaps that is what it sounds like that. Anyway, I 
now have the horse galloping in a circle around me, much safer.

Hmmm, time for a 7.1 system?

kt


-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: prabuinet
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162789953.036608.86420@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Languages like c# or java or whatever else may be used by a programmer
to solve
the real world problems, ofcourse,

but,

Lisp is not only usefull to solve the real world problems, but first,
it is intended to solve
the problems of a Programmer, which is less cared by other languages.



(if (not (? am i right))
    (correct 'me))



(bye 'prabu)
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <ycQ3h.15725$j7.333237@news.indigo.ie>
Ken Tilton wrote:

> So  WTF is Ireland's status?Colony? Occupied territory?
> Satellite? Are you in the UN? Nato?

Uhm. getting a bit OT, but:

The island of Ireland is divided in two:  Northern Ireland (6 counties)
and the Republic of Ireland (26 counties).  The former is part of the
UK, the latter an independent* state and euro-currency EU member.
 
See relevant wikipedia entry, maybe, usual wiki caveats apply:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_(terminology)#Problems_with_use_of_terms

* nominally independent - by recent evidence one should probably
consider the Republic of Ireland to be a puppet/satellite of the
USA/corporations at the moment (see shannon airport), and of course
it's an EU member which doesn't much help with "independence".

> Anyway, I now have the horse galloping in a circle around me, much
> safer.

With exaggerated doppler effect, I trust? :-)
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <zOQ3h.57$wY1.10@newsfe09.lga>
David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
>>Anyway, I now have the horse galloping in a circle around me, much
>>safer.
> 
> 
> With exaggerated doppler effect, I trust? :-)

That's a trick question, right? There is no relative motion if the horse 
is traveling in a circle. Also, I confess I was too lazy to calculate 
the velocity and direction vectors. I do have a nice siren WAV I could 
use to experiment with generating a Doppler effect, but it is crunch 
time and the app does not need it so I must resist the temptation. :(

kt

ps. OT? In comp.lang.lisp? These yobbos don't have the concept. :) k

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <9bS3h.15727$j7.333493@news.indigo.ie>
Ken Tilton wrote:

 
> That's a trick question, right? There is no relative motion if the
> horse is traveling in a circle. 

Totally a trick question. Ahem.  Or I could have just been looking for
an excuse to mention the cool doppler support in OpenAL and completely
overlooking that, of course...  

Still, if you move the centre of the source's circle a bit away from the
listener, and plug in the velocities appropriately, then you should get
a pronounced doppler effect, listener<->source radial velocity
component will then be varying...
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162920277.997894.127110@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
> > you Brits
>
> Ooh... Insert obligatory "Irish, not British" rant here...

I live in Ireland too.  It would be interesting sometime to have an
Lispers meeting in Ireland, if New York can have one, why not.
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <S994h.15764$j7.333259@news.indigo.ie>
Rob Thorpe wrote:

> I live in Ireland too.  It would be interesting sometime to have an
> Lispers meeting in Ireland, if New York can have one, why not.

Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland? 
("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)


 
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <wBb4h.87$ng.83@newsfe10.lga>
David Golden wrote:
> Rob Thorpe wrote:
> 
> 
>>I live in Ireland too.  It would be interesting sometime to have an
>>Lispers meeting in Ireland, if New York can have one, why not.
> 
> 
> Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland? 
> ("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)

<sigh> First you pick the mascot, then you pick the jingle, then you 
pick the acronym.

Do I have to teach you yobs everything?!

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163002327.387990.187410@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
David Golden wrote:
> Rob Thorpe wrote:
>
> > I live in Ireland too.  It would be interesting sometime to have an
> > Lispers meeting in Ireland, if New York can have one, why not.
>
> Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland?
> ("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)

Sounds good, looks like that's two members so far.  I think that makes
you President and me Treasurer.  I can feel the power already, shall we
run away with the group's funds to warmer climes?

Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
Kenny ;).
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <gkR4h.15843$j7.333635@news.indigo.ie>
Rob Thorpe wrote:

>> Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland?
>> ("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)
> 
> Sounds good, looks like that's two members so far.  I think that makes
> you President and me Treasurer. I can feel the power already, shall 
> we run away with the group's funds to warmer climes?

President, eh? Sounds... presidential.

> Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
> Kenny ;).

Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
Ireland?
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <4UU4h.3575$z14.3105@newsfe08.lga>
David Golden wrote:
> Rob Thorpe wrote:
> 
> 
>>>Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland?
>>>("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)
>>
>>Sounds good, looks like that's two members so far.  I think that makes
>>you President and me Treasurer. I can feel the power already, shall 
>>we run away with the group's funds to warmer climes?
> 
> 
> President, eh? Sounds... presidential.
> 
> 
>>Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
>>Kenny ;).

Thanks for the invite! I will be speaking on Cells, fyi. And they may 
want to double-up on the bouncers.

> 
> 
> Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
> Ireland?

At 4am (when they drag Spitzer and Rahul out of P&Gs in NYC) is finding 
a pub in Ireland still a joke?

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163185793.304546.167390@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> David Golden wrote:
> > Rob Thorpe wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland?
> >>>("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)
> >>
> >>Sounds good, looks like that's two members so far.  I think that makes
> >>you President and me Treasurer. I can feel the power already, shall
> >>we run away with the group's funds to warmer climes?
> >
> >
> > President, eh? Sounds... presidential.
> >
> >
> >>Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
> >>Kenny ;).
>
> Thanks for the invite! I will be speaking on Cells, fyi. And they may
> want to double-up on the bouncers.

Will do.  Just don't say anything about colonies, OK?
I'm an brit living in Ireland, and that's an interesting enough
experience for me, I try not to invite extra interesting experiences.

> > Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
> > Ireland?
>
> At 4am (when they drag Spitzer and Rahul out of P&Gs in NYC)

I had no idea LispNYC was like that, I imagined lots of people with
beards talking about lisp, drinking slowly and finishing at a sensible
adult-like time.  I'll have to visit sometime.

> is finding
> a pub in Ireland still a joke?

In the bit of Ireland I live in it would not be possible (while staying
within the law).  I was thrown out at 2am last night from somewhere
with a late license.

(And of-course I had to book my trip weeks in advance, pubs being in
such short supply here).
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163183943.235835.63260@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
David Golden wrote:
> Rob Thorpe wrote:
>
> >> Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland?
> >> ("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)
> >
> > Sounds good, looks like that's two members so far.  I think that makes
> > you President and me Treasurer. I can feel the power already, shall
> > we run away with the group's funds to warmer climes?
>
> President, eh? Sounds... presidential.

You can be treasurer too now I've run away with the funds.

> > Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
> > Kenny ;).
>
> Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
> Ireland?

Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
invariably full, since they're in such short supply.  I live in
Limerick, someone is advertising to buy a 7-day/week license in the
local paper for 178000 euros.
From: Wolfram Fenske
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163215071.312764.214720@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
"Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> writes:

> David Golden wrote:
>> Rob Thorpe wrote:

[...]

>> > Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
>> > Kenny ;).
>>
>> Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
>> Ireland?
>
> Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
> invariably full, since they're in such short supply.

Are you serious?  At first I thought this was a joke.  I mean, the
Irish invented the pub, right?  I thougt, Ireland without pubs, that's
like Lisp without parentheses (sorry, but I couldn't resist)!  But now
you guys are starting to scare me.

> I live in Limerick,

I feel the urge to make a five-line, often humorous and ribald poem
with a strict meter that follows an "A-A-B-B-A" rhyme scheme but
*damn*, whatever rhymes with Limerick? :-)

--
Wolfram Fenske

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <JFe5h.1485$qI4.1339@newsfe11.lga>
Wolfram Fenske wrote:
> "Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>David Golden wrote:
>>
>>>Rob Thorpe wrote:
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
>>>>Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
>>>>Kenny ;).
>>>
>>>Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
>>>Ireland?
>>
>>Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
>>invariably full, since they're in such short supply.

Explaining why no one there goes to pubs any more? Too crowded?*

kt

* Full cred to Yogi Berra

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Wolfram Fenske
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163268727.240679.266900@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>> "Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> writes:
>>
>>>David Golden wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rob Thorpe wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>>>Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
>>>>>Kenny ;).
>>>>
>>>>Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
>>>>Ireland?
>>>
>>>Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
>>>invariably full, since they're in such short supply.
>
> Explaining why no one there goes to pubs any more? Too crowded?*
>
> kt
>
> * Full cred to Yogi Berra

Huh?  Was this posting not directed at me or did you forget to quote
something?

Confused,
Wolfram

PS: Just got the Yogi Berra reference. :-) (Bear with me, I'm not
    from the US.)
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <2Oo5h.36$9B3.8@newsfe10.lga>
Wolfram Fenske wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>>
>>>>Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
>>>>invariably full, since they're in such short supply.

This, given the law of supply and demand, was sufficient to remind me 
(without necessarily being relevant) of...
>>
>>Explaining why no one there goes to pubs any more? Too crowded?*

Yogi Berra's remark about a certain nightspot: "No one goes there 
anymore. It's too crowded."

> 
> PS: Just got the Yogi Berra reference. :-) (Bear with me, I'm not
>     from the US.)
> 

Or had you already figured that out? Just in case: Yogi was a great 
catcher (MVP one year at least) for the dominant Yankee teams of the 
fifties and early sixties. He is also famous for taking "It ain't over 
till the fat lady sings" (see "opera") and creating something now almost 
invariably quoted during close finishes to competitions: "It ain't over 
till its over." His second most popular may be "It was deja vu all over 
again".

     http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/y/yogi_berra.html

hth, kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Wolfram Fenske
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163273189.773804.178040@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
>>>>>invariably full, since they're in such short supply.
>
> This, given the law of supply and demand, was sufficient to remind me
> (without necessarily being relevant) of...
>>>
>>>Explaining why no one there goes to pubs any more? Too crowded?*
>
> Yogi Berra's remark about a certain nightspot: "No one goes there
> anymore. It's too crowded."
>
>> PS: Just got the Yogi Berra reference. :-) (Bear with me, I'm not
>>     from the US.)
>>
>
> Or had you already figured that out?

Yes.  I was confused because you responded to me instead of Rob
Thorpe, who was the one that said the in Ireland are too full.  So I
thought, maybe if I look up Yogi Berra, I'll understand.  When I found
the one quote on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogiisms>, I got the
Yogi Berra reference.  I still don't know why you responded to me
instead of Rob Thorpe, though. :-)

[...]

>      http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/y/yogi_berra.html

Thanks, cool page.

--
Wolfram Fenske

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <v0q5h.273$Em.180@newsfe12.lga>
Wolfram Fenske wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>>
>>>Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
>>>>>>invariably full, since they're in such short supply.
>>
>>This, given the law of supply and demand, was sufficient to remind me
>>(without necessarily being relevant) of...
>>
>>>>Explaining why no one there goes to pubs any more? Too crowded?*
>>
>>Yogi Berra's remark about a certain nightspot: "No one goes there
>>anymore. It's too crowded."
>>
>>
>>>PS: Just got the Yogi Berra reference. :-) (Bear with me, I'm not
>>>    from the US.)
>>>
>>
>>Or had you already figured that out?
> 
> 
> Yes.  I was confused because you responded to me instead of Rob
> Thorpe, who was the one that said the in Ireland are too full.  So I
> thought, maybe if I look up Yogi Berra, I'll understand.  When I found
> the one quote on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogiisms>, I got the
> Yogi Berra reference.  I still don't know why you responded to me
> instead of Rob Thorpe, though. :-)

Ah, but /what/ I wrote was clearly a follow-up to the last paragraph I 
quoted, the entirety of which was authored at the toplevel by yourself 
in the article where I just happened to stumble on the full pub reference.

So... was I responding to you, or to the author of the last paragraph?*

I think we have a label/value issue going on here. :)

kt

* answer: neither, I was following up on the remark itself with no 
concern over who wrote what. k

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Wolfram Fenske
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163277822.729893.304960@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Wolfram Fenske wrote:

[...]

>> Yes.  I was confused because you responded to me instead of Rob
>> Thorpe, who was the one that said the in Ireland are too full.  So I
>> thought, maybe if I look up Yogi Berra, I'll understand.  When I found
>> the one quote on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogiisms>, I got the
>> Yogi Berra reference.  I still don't know why you responded to me
>> instead of Rob Thorpe, though. :-)
>
> Ah, but /what/ I wrote was clearly a follow-up to the last paragraph I
> quoted, the entirety of which was authored at the toplevel by yourself
> in the article where I just happened to stumble on the full pub
> reference.
>
> So... was I responding to you, or to the author of the last paragraph?*
>
> I think we have a label/value issue going on here. :)
>
> kt
>
> * answer: neither, I was following up on the remark itself with no
> * concern over who wrote what. k

Hey, that's cheating! ;-)

On a completely different matter: what's up with all those "Kenny eats
people" remarks lately?  Where did this come from?  Was there some
story in the news, something like our "Cannibal of Rotenburg" [1] [2].


Footnotes:
[1]  If you don't know about that one, this story will help
     <http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1989103,00.html>
     (title: "I wanted to eat him, not kill him, court is told").
     BTW, the willing victim was a software specialist; and they met
     in a chat room.  Hm, maybe I should stop talking to you ...

[2]  The town's name is actually "Rotenburg", not "Rothenburg", as
     it's spelled in the article.

--
Wolfram Fenske

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <iWu5h.350$MS1.151@newsfe08.lga>
Wolfram Fenske wrote:

> On a completely different matter: what's up with all those "Kenny eats
> people" remarks lately?  Where did this come from?  Was there some
> story in the news, something like our "Cannibal of Rotenburg" [1] [2].

A noob satisfied with his treatment here expressed surprise at our 
savage reputation. We are trying to keep Lisp to ourselves, so I 
suggested the reputation was valid and that he had merely been lucky to 
arrive just after we'd eaten (a couple of noobs in here just a week or 
two before him). This was a metaphor, as you might imagine, but you seem 
to be a very literal person so I leave nothing to chance.

:)

hth, kenny


-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Wolfram Fenske
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163301952.551358.272520@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>
>> On a completely different matter: what's up with all those "Kenny eats
>> people" remarks lately?  Where did this come from?  Was there some
>> story in the news, something like our "Cannibal of Rotenburg" [1] [2].
>
> A noob satisfied with his treatment here expressed surprise at our
> savage reputation. We are trying to keep Lisp to ourselves, so I
> suggested the reputation was valid and that he had merely been lucky
> to arrive just after we'd eaten (a couple of noobs in here just a week
> or two before him).

I see, gotta keep up the "Savages of comp.lang.lisp" rep.

> This was a metaphor, as you might imagine, but you seem to be a very
> literal person so I leave nothing to chance.

Well, harrassing hotel guests with lambda expressions [1], claiming to
eat people, and then this picture from a Lisp-NYC meeting a while back
where you steal someone's soul [2]--what am I supposed to think?!

;-)


Footnotes:
[1]  <http://www.thescripts.com/forum/post89129-80.html>

[2]  <http://www.tilton-technology.com/rogercormannyc2.html>

--
Wolfram Fenske

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <yNl5h.15907$j7.333237@news.indigo.ie>
Wolfram Fenske wrote:
 
> Are you serious?  At first I thought this was a joke.

Jokes are no laughing matter here...

> whatever rhymes with Limerick? :-) 

"dimmer hick".  Coincidence? 



 
From: Wolfram Fenske
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163267956.371666.119700@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
David Golden <············@oceanfree.net> writes:

> Wolfram Fenske wrote:
>
>> Are you serious?  At first I thought this was a joke.
>
> Jokes are no laughing matter here...

How could I forget?  We don't have anything to laugh about.  Our
chosen language is constantly under attack, we don't have any pubs to
go to, and the president of LUIGI ran away with our money.  Back to
being grumpy. :-(

>> whatever rhymes with Limerick? :-)
>
> "dimmer hick".  Coincidence?

You said that! :-)

Anyway,

    I once knew a person from Limerick
    And never did I meet a dimmer hick
    I just said, "Hey Joe,
    What do you know,
    what do you say?  See, I'm trying to write this short poem, but
    I'm stuck at the fifth line.  Do you know what rhymes with
    'Limerick', besides 'dimmer hick'?"  But he punched me in the face
    because he thought I was trying to make fun of his hometown.
    Well, that's how it goes sometimes.

--
Wolfram Fenske

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163416118.826768.102150@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Wolfram Fenske wrote:
> "Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> writes:
>
> > David Golden wrote:
> >> Rob Thorpe wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> > Would suggest if we have any meetings in pubs perhaps not bringing
> >> > Kenny ;).
> >>
> >> Meeting in a pub?  C'mon be realistic - where would we find a pub in
> >> Ireland?
> >
> > Indeed, whenever such a rare thing as a pub is encountered it's
> > invariably full, since they're in such short supply.
>
> Are you serious?  At first I thought this was a joke.  I mean, the
> Irish invented the pub, right?  I thougt, Ireland without pubs,

I was (mostly) joking.  Like everywhere else in Ireland Limerick seems
to have about 1 pub per 3 head of population.  The pubs are still
always jam-packed full though.

I wasn't jobing about someone offering 178000 euro for a license that,
bizarrely, is true.  Obviously someone feels there is an opening in the
market.

> that's
> like Lisp without parentheses (sorry, but I couldn't resist)!  But now
> you guys are starting to scare me.
>
> > I live in Limerick,
>
> I feel the urge to make a five-line, often humorous and ribald poem
> with a strict meter that follows an "A-A-B-B-A" rhyme scheme but
> *damn*, whatever rhymes with Limerick? :-)

Indeed.  Everyone has this reaction.  (Bailiwick rhymes, as do
smithwick, gimmick, goldbrick, lipstick. Icepick is probably the most
appropriate)

Live anywhere else in the world and the internet is a useful resource.
You can for instance find things about where you live by using a search
engine.  When I lived in cambridge I could  type things like "fish and
chip shops cambridge" or "curtains cambridge" and get useful results.
If I do the same in Limerick all I get is ribald poetry.  The only way
of finding anything quickly is the phone book.
From: Raffael Cavallaro
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <2006111317171750073-raffaelcavallaro@pasdespamsilvousplaitmaccom>
On 2006-11-13 06:08:38 -0500, "Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> said:

> Live anywhere else in the world and the internet is a useful resource.
> You can for instance find things about where you live by using a search
> engine.  When I lived in cambridge I could  type things like "fish and
> chip shops cambridge" or "curtains cambridge" and get useful results.
> If I do the same in Limerick all I get is ribald poetry.  The only way
> of finding anything quickly is the phone book.

try googling: limerick curtains -"there -once -was"

should eliminate most of the ribald poetry ;^)
From: Wolfram Fenske
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163459928.312996.135320@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Raffael Cavallaro
<················@pas-d'espam-s'il-vous-plait-mac.com> writes:

> On 2006-11-13 06:08:38 -0500, "Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> said:
>
>> Live anywhere else in the world and the internet is a useful resource.
>> You can for instance find things about where you live by using a search
>> engine.  When I lived in cambridge I could  type things like "fish and
>> chip shops cambridge" or "curtains cambridge" and get useful results.
>> If I do the same in Limerick all I get is ribald poetry.  The only way
>> of finding anything quickly is the phone book.
>
> try googling: limerick curtains -"there -once -was"
>
> should eliminate most of the ribald poetry ;^)

:-)

I just googled for "latex".  I fully expected to be confronted with a
ton of fetish sites.  But to my utter surprise, just the opposite
happened: all the hits are concerned with the typesetting program.  I
guess you never know.  At least the ads didn't let me down ... ;-)

--
Wolfram Fenske

A: Yes.
>Q: Are you sure?
>>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1163528685.016023.219010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Raffael Cavallaro wrote:
> On 2006-11-13 06:08:38 -0500, "Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> said:
>
> > Live anywhere else in the world and the internet is a useful resource.
> > You can for instance find things about where you live by using a search
> > engine.  When I lived in cambridge I could  type things like "fish and
> > chip shops cambridge" or "curtains cambridge" and get useful results.
> > If I do the same in Limerick all I get is ribald poetry.  The only way
> > of finding anything quickly is the phone book.
>
> try googling: limerick curtains -"there -once -was"
>
> should eliminate most of the ribald poetry ;^)

Wow, that mostly works, thanks.
From: Raffael Cavallaro
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <200611141452188930-raffaelcavallaro@pasdespamsilvousplaitmaccom>
On 2006-11-14 13:24:45 -0500, "Rob Thorpe" <·······@realworldtech.com> said:

> Wow, that mostly works, thanks.

yeah, took me a while to get it though it seems obvious in retrospect - 
search engines are much more powerful if you can find some common 
elements to the junk matches you want to filter out.
From: ·······@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1161993815.664165.289670@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
jmckitrick wrote:
> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?

The past few days have been particularily brutal, but it seems to me
that there haven't been any direct attacks, more like criticisms hoping
to provoke improvement. Sort of a "we hate lisp only because we love
it, and wish it were better / popular / more modern."

Not at all like it is with the Republicans.
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <3T3j4pl1Iu9lNv8%stesch@parsec.no-spoon.de>
·······@gmail.com wrote:
> The past few days have been particularily brutal, but it seems to me
> that there haven't been any direct attacks, more like criticisms hoping
> to provoke improvement. Sort of a "we hate lisp only because we love
> it, and wish it were better / popular / more modern."

And one important point: We want Eric back!!
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <2T3j57s2IieNv8%stesch@parsec.no-spoon.de>
·······@gmail.com wrote:
> The past few days have been particularily brutal, but it seems to me
> that there haven't been any direct attacks, more like criticisms hoping
> to provoke improvement. Sort of a "we hate lisp only because we love
> it, and wish it were better / popular / more modern."

And one important point: We want Erik back!!
From: ··········@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162013548.782528.176440@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
by "attacked on reddit".  Are there articles on reddit criticizing
lisp?

Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
lisp fan anymore?

sanket.

On Oct 27, 11:33 am, "jmckitrick" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162041790.613214.157210@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
··········@gmail.com ha escrito:

> I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> by "attacked on reddit".  Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> lisp?
>
> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
> lisp fan anymore?

Paul Graham is a great troll. ;-)
First, he writes books and claim that Lisp is (was always) the Last One
Thing you'll ever need. Then he start saying that CL sucks and that Arc
is going to substitute it. No working Arc is ever produced. His essays
are running out like wind.
Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
any other language may take 5 times less).
So, now that they have mastered on Lisp, they encounter that all they
learn is useless, so they come comp.lang.lisp and try to convince
others to do the same stupidity.
Meanwhile, real programmers are wining real money programming on Java,
and laugh when reading all this nonsense.
From: ·······@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162068996.958462.22390@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Javier wrote:
> ··········@gmail.com ha escrito:
>
> > I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> > by "attacked on reddit".  Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> > lisp?
> >
> > Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
> > lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
> > lisp fan anymore?
>
> Paul Graham is a great troll. ;-)
> First, he writes books and claim that Lisp is (was always) the Last One
> Thing you'll ever need. Then he start saying that CL sucks and that Arc
> is going to substitute it. No working Arc is ever produced. His essays
> are running out like wind.
> Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
> takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
> any other language may take 5 times less).

Eric Raymond:
"LISP is worth learning for a different reason - the profound
enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it. That
experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days,
even if you never actually use LISP itself a lot. "

> So, now that they have mastered on Lisp, they encounter that all they
> learn is useless, so they come comp.lang.lisp and try to convince
> others to do the same stupidity.
> Meanwhile, real programmers are wining real money programming on Java,
> and laugh when reading all this nonsense.

Sadly, there may be some truth to what you are saying. Some.
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <op.th41xwdrpqzri1@pandora.upc.no>
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 15:23:10 +0200, Javier <·······@gmail.com> wrote:

> ··········@gmail.com ha escrito:
>
>> I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
>> by "attacked on reddit".  Are there articles on reddit criticizing
>> lisp?
>>
>> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
>> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
>> lisp fan anymore?
>
> Paul Graham is a great troll. ;-)
> First, he writes books and claim that Lisp is (was always) the Last One
> Thing you'll ever need. Then he start saying that CL sucks and that Arc
> is going to substitute it. No working Arc is ever produced. His essays
> are running out like wind.
> Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
> takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
> any other language may take 5 times less).
> So, now that they have mastered on Lisp, they encounter that all they
> learn is useless, so they come comp.lang.lisp and try to convince
> others to do the same stupidity.
> Meanwhile, real programmers are wining real money programming on Java,
> and laugh when reading all this nonsense.
>

1. Lisp != Common Lisp
2. Arc is still in progress (He warned that it wolud take time)
3. You can do real work in nearly every language
4. Most people here are "real" programmers
5. Most Java programmers never read this "nonsense"
6. Whining about it, however, is a waste of time. If you don't like CL use  
Java.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <pan.2006.10.28.17.09.52.578127@gmail.com>
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 06:23:10 -0700, Javier wrote:

> ··········@gmail.com ha escrito:
> 
>> I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
>> by "attacked on reddit".  Are there articles on reddit criticizing
>> lisp?
>>
>> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
>> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
>> lisp fan anymore?
> 
> Paul Graham is a great troll. ;-)
> First, he writes books and claim that Lisp is (was always) the Last One
> Thing you'll ever need. Then he start saying that CL sucks and that Arc
> is going to substitute it. No working Arc is ever produced. His essays
> are running out like wind.
> Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
> takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
> any other language may take 5 times less).
> So, now that they have mastered on Lisp, they encounter that all they
> learn is useless, so they come comp.lang.lisp and try to convince
> others to do the same stupidity.
> Meanwhile, real programmers are wining real money programming on Java,
> and laugh when reading all this nonsense.

..and what are you doing?

-- 
Lars Rune Nøstdal
http://lars.nostdal.org/
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <87veluflff.fsf@david-steuber.com>
"Javier" <·······@gmail.com> writes:

> Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
> takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
> any other language may take 5 times less).

I don't agree with this.  Programming is a complex activity regardless
of the language you are using.  Some languages do provide better tools
for certain jobs than others, but the abstract thinking still
remains.  I spent plenty of time on C and C++.  When I got into Lisp,
I found that there was a whole lot about programming that I did not
know.  Even if I never write another line of code in Lisp, I have
learned something valuable from it.  Common Lisp is a very expressive
language.  It has grown less complex than C++ or Java with all the
J2EE shit thrown in.  Java only seems easier because there are more
prebuilt components due to its popularity.  Just try doing something
that hasn't been done before.  That in itself is a hard thing to do.

Not all programs are tinker toys.

-- 
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
   --- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
  --- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <4qh5geFmn1u3U1@individual.net>
··········@gmail.com wrote:
> I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> by "attacked on reddit".  Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> lisp?

I don't know, I don't read reddit. But I wouldn't be surprised. Lisp has 
always been attacked throughout its history for all kinds of reasons.

BTW, most languages are attacked by someone for all kinds of reasons.

> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
> lisp fan anymore?

IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans 
of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have 
different mindsets.


Pascal

-- 
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162044331.183285.122040@e64g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Pascal Costanza ha escrito:


> > Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
> > lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
> > lisp fan anymore?
>
> IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans
> of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have
> different mindsets.

Ironically, when money enters the game, he opens his mind, and
recognize that the important thing is not the language but the idea.
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <4qh7d9Fn0p7jU1@individual.net>
Javier wrote:
> Pascal Costanza ha escrito:
> 
> 
>>> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
>>> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
>>> lisp fan anymore?
>> IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans
>> of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have
>> different mindsets.
> 
> Ironically, when money enters the game, he opens his mind, and
> recognize that the important thing is not the language but the idea.

No, he said so all the time. You should read his essays more carefully.


Pascal

-- 
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
From: Javier
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162049285.819813.246630@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Javier wrote:
> > Pascal Costanza ha escrito:
> >
> >
> >>> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
> >>> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
> >>> lisp fan anymore?
> >> IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans
> >> of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have
> >> different mindsets.
> >
> > Ironically, when money enters the game, he opens his mind, and
> > recognize that the important thing is not the language but the idea.
>
> No, he said so all the time. You should read his essays more carefully.

He takes a lot of time to critique languages like Java (which he
recognize he is not an expert in), and we all know how much time he
invested on saying how good is Lisp.
From: Marc Battyani
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <Q8ednUaDxr96H97YRVnyuA@giganews.com>
"Javier" <·······@gmail.com> wrote
>
>
> He takes a lot of time to critique languages like Java (which he
> recognize he is not an expert in), and we all know how much time he
> invested on saying how good is Lisp.

For sure, you are less biaised as you know neither languages...

Marc
(feeding the trolls today)
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <4qhhorFmqlq7U2@individual.net>
Javier wrote:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>> Javier wrote:
>>> Pascal Costanza ha escrito:
>>>
>>>>> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story.  I have been reading his
>>>>> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan.  So is he not a
>>>>> lisp fan anymore?
>>>> IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans
>>>> of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have
>>>> different mindsets.
>>> Ironically, when money enters the game, he opens his mind, and
>>> recognize that the important thing is not the language but the idea.
>> No, he said so all the time. You should read his essays more carefully.
> 
> He takes a lot of time to critique languages like Java (which he
> recognize he is not an expert in), and we all know how much time he
> invested on saying how good is Lisp.

No contradiction here: He says that Lisp is good because Lisp lets you 
focus on your ideas. Java is bad because it requires you to focus on the 
language instead of your ideas.

As I said, you should read his essays more carefully.


Pascal

-- 
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
From: Tayssir John Gabbour
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162057639.383308.201340@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> ··········@gmail.com wrote:
> > I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> > by "attacked on reddit".  Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> > lisp?
>
> I don't know, I don't read reddit. But I wouldn't be surprised. Lisp has
> always been attacked throughout its history for all kinds of reasons.

I don't think Lisp is "attacked" on Reddit. I read it often, and by and
large the discussion of Lisp is reasonable. Yesterday was unusual for
having a minor flamewar about the finer points of Naggumnomics.


Tayssir
From: jmckitrick
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162066835.802198.22570@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
On Oct 28, 1:47 pm, "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> > I don't know, I don't read reddit. But I wouldn't be surprised. Lisp has
> > always been attacked throughout its history for all kinds of reasons.I don't think Lisp is "attacked" on Reddit. I read it often, and by and
> large the discussion of Lisp is reasonable. Yesterday was unusual for
> having a minor flamewar about the finer points of Naggumnomics.

I quit reading reddit as often, mostly because I'm sick of the
politics, not to mention the bias.

But I *do* seem to recall seeing a lot of 'Lisp is lame because...'
posts, and less comments in the same vein about other languages.

I was totally unaware of the Y-Collaborator factor, since I haven't
been to c.l.l. much lately.
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1T3j4ll7Iu9lNv8%stesch@parsec.no-spoon.de>
Pascal Costanza <··@p-cos.net> wrote:
> BTW, most languages are attacked by someone for all kinds of reasons.

Right. Go to #lisp (IRC channel on FreeNode) and make some
grammar mistakes. ==> Your English gets attacked. q.e.d. :-)
From: Wade Humeniuk
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <FXx0h.33276$P7.16996@edtnps90>
jmckitrick wrote:
> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?
> 

Why does a teenager rebel against its parents?  Same old.

W
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <op.th3tcxxapqzri1@pandora.upc.no>
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:33:15 +0200, jmckitrick <···········@yahoo.com>  
wrote:

> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?
>

Learn to search google groups.
Then read the numerous mails on this subject in the past.
I feel enough has already been said.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <0T3j4lc8Iu9lNv8%stesch@parsec.no-spoon.de>
jmckitrick <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there?  Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?

It's not only reddit:

In the second paragraph of the first chapter of Practical OCaml
you can read

    OCaml is not a popular language in the way that Java is a
    popular language. Flame wars rarely break out over non-Lisp
    languages that are not in the mainstream.


Hey, and don't forget http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SmugLispWeenie :-)


-- 
Web (en): http://www.no-spoon.de/ -*- Web (de): http://www.frell.de/
From: jmckitrick
Subject: Re: Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?
Date: 
Message-ID: <1162184745.233298.207210@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
On Oct 29, 5:41 am, Stefan Scholl <······@no-spoon.de> wrote:
> In the second paragraph of the first chapter of Practical OCaml
> you can read
>
>     OCaml is not a popular language in the way that Java is a
>     popular language. Flame wars rarely break out over non-Lisp
>     languages that are not in the mainstream.
>
> Hey, and don't forgethttp://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SmugLispWeenie:-)
>
> --
> Web (en):http://www.no-spoon.de/-*- Web (de):http://www.frell.de/

I guess it's just a unique position enjoyed by Lisp.  It's so powerful
and envied, yet so often misunderstood, it's easy to attack.