Hi there,
I just read Ron Garrets newest blog entry
( http://rondam.blogspot.com/2006/10/top-ten-geek-business-myths.html )
He writes there the proof why Lisp
devs cannot get successful in the business marketplace:
************************************************
Ironically, C programmers understand this much better than Lisp
programmers. One of the ironies of the programming world is that using
Lisp is vastly more productive than using pretty much any other
programming language, but successful businesses based on Lisp are quite
rare. The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so
productive that a single person can get things done without having to
work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop
the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team. A C
programmer, by contrast, can't do anything useful except as a member of
a team. So although programming in C hobbles you in some ways, it
forces you to form groups whose net effectiveness is greater than the
sum of their parts, and who collectively can stomp on all the
individual Lisp programmers out there, even though one-on-one a Lisper
can run rings around a C programmer.
*************************************************
So, now we know why. ;-))
regards
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <sEeUg.65$jK6.35@newsfe10.lga>
> rare. The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so
> productive that a single person can get things done without having to
> work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop
> the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team.
Hmmm. Aren't social skills pretty much developed before, oh, second grade?
Otoh, this could explain why so many people show up at monthly Lisp
meetings and then sit hunched silently over their beers avoiding eye
contact with everyone else who showed up.
:)
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> > rare. The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so
> > productive that a single person can get things done without having to
> > work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop
> > the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team.
>
> Hmmm. Aren't social skills pretty much developed before, oh, second grade?
I don't know about you, but I wasn't taught programming in second grade
... much less programming in teams. My guess is that by "social skills"
he is referring to productively working in a group on software. If that
isn't what was initially meant, that makes more sense to me anyways, so
i'll just go with that.
-Adam
Ken Tilton wrote:
>
> Hmmm. Aren't social skills pretty much developed before, oh, second grade?
>
> Otoh, this could explain why so many people show up at monthly Lisp
> meetings and then sit hunched silently over their beers avoiding eye
> contact with everyone else who showed up.
I'm just highly protective of my beer.
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <OcxUg.438$iS5.1@newsfe11.lga>
Joe Marshall wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>Hmmm. Aren't social skills pretty much developed before, oh, second grade?
>>
>>Otoh, this could explain why so many people show up at monthly Lisp
>>meetings and then sit hunched silently over their beers avoiding eye
>>contact with everyone else who showed up.
Case in point: http://www.tilton-technology.com/rogercormannyc3.html
Roger is making an encore appearance Thursday, btw: Bar at Amsterdam &
76th, 7ish I guess.
>
> I'm just highly protective of my beer.
>
Wise, indeed. As one can see from the above, things get ugly when one
mixes Lisp and beer.
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Rahul Jain
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <87y7rx16l3.fsf@nyct.net>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>> Ken Tilton wrote:
>>
>>>Hmmm. Aren't social skills pretty much developed before, oh, second grade?
>>>
>>>Otoh, this could explain why so many people show up at monthly Lisp
>>>meetings and then sit hunched silently over their beers avoiding eye
>>>contact with everyone else who showed up.
>
> Case in point: http://www.tilton-technology.com/rogercormannyc3.html
Er, I don't think I'm a good example in support of your statement...
> Roger is making an encore appearance Thursday, btw: Bar at Amsterdam &
> 76th, 7ish I guess.
Thursday? Not next Tuesday?
--
Rahul Jain
·····@nyct.net
Professional Software Developer, Amateur Quantum Mechanicist
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <syCUg.562$Og4.322@newsfe12.lga>
Rahul Jain wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>>Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hmmm. Aren't social skills pretty much developed before, oh, second grade?
>>>>
>>>>Otoh, this could explain why so many people show up at monthly Lisp
>>>>meetings and then sit hunched silently over their beers avoiding eye
>>>>contact with everyone else who showed up.
>>
>>Case in point: http://www.tilton-technology.com/rogercormannyc3.html
>
>
> Er, I don't think I'm a good example in support of your statement...
>
>
>>Roger is making an encore appearance Thursday, btw: Bar at Amsterdam &
>>76th, 7ish I guess.
>
>
> Thursday? Not next Tuesday?
>
Man, yer not even close. The original announcement was in error and for
/this/ Tuesday, aka right now. here is the announcement, corrected:
>>>>
Relive the magic! If you managed to dodge Roger Corman "the man, the
myth, the s-expression" mere years ago, consider taking your liver on a
trip down memory lane:
http://www.tilton-technology.com/rogercormannyc.html
Roger Corman, father and namesake of the popular Corman Common Lisp
( http://www.cormanlisp.com ) will be visiting New York City and has
generously offered an evening of his busy schedule to meet and hang with
the local lispnycs.
Spend an evening with Roger, bring your queries regarding running your
own successful Lisp business, talk shop or just swap pointers on the
most humane way to let down hundreds of Lisp groupies.
We will be meeting Thursday October 5th at the Westside Brewery (340
Amsterdam Ave. off the 1,2,3,9 subway between 76th-77th) from 7:30 to
9:30 PM.
(LispNYC's regular monthly meeting will indeed be held the following
week, expect an announcement shortly.)
- Heow
The astute reader will notice that October 5th, 2004 was the date of
"The First Visiting of Corman". I hereby declare October 5th to be Meet
Roger Corman Day!
<<<<<<<<<
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Rahul Jain
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <87r6xnoqan.fsf@nyct.net>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> We will be meeting Thursday October 5th at the Westside Brewery (340
> Amsterdam Ave. off the 1,2,3,9 subway between 76th-77th) from 7:30 to
> 9:30 PM.
>
> (LispNYC's regular monthly meeting will indeed be held the following
> week, expect an announcement shortly.)
Ah. Damn it. Galaparty is tomorrow, too, starting at 8:30 in the LES.
Maybe I'll come to see Roger instead, tho. Just to spite you, Kenny.
--
Rahul Jain
·····@nyct.net
Professional Software Developer, Amateur Quantum Mechanicist
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <4od599FdttoeU1@individual.net>
··········@yahoo.de wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I just read Ron Garrets newest blog entry
> ( http://rondam.blogspot.com/2006/10/top-ten-geek-business-myths.html )
> He writes there the proof why Lisp
> devs cannot get successful in the business marketplace:
>
> ************************************************
> Ironically, C programmers understand this much better than Lisp
> programmers. One of the ironies of the programming world is that using
> Lisp is vastly more productive than using pretty much any other
> programming language, but successful businesses based on Lisp are quite
> rare. The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so
> productive that a single person can get things done without having to
> work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop
> the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team. A C
> programmer, by contrast, can't do anything useful except as a member of
> a team. So although programming in C hobbles you in some ways, it
> forces you to form groups whose net effectiveness is greater than the
> sum of their parts, and who collectively can stomp on all the
> individual Lisp programmers out there, even though one-on-one a Lisper
> can run rings around a C programmer.
> *************************************************
>
> So, now we know why. ;-))
The only reason why more C programmers than Lisp programmers understand
this is because there are more C programmers than Lisp programmers.
Pascal
--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
··········@yahoo.de schrieb:
> Hi there,
>
> I just read Ron Garrets newest blog entry
> ( http://rondam.blogspot.com/2006/10/top-ten-geek-business-myths.html )
> He writes there the proof why Lisp
> devs cannot get successful in the business marketplace:
>
> ************************************************
> Ironically, C programmers understand this much better than Lisp
> programmers. One of the ironies of the programming world is that using
> Lisp is vastly more productive than using pretty much any other
> programming language, but successful businesses based on Lisp are quite
> rare. The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so
> productive that a single person can get things done without having to
> work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop
> the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team. A C
> programmer, by contrast, can't do anything useful except as a member of
> a team. So although programming in C hobbles you in some ways, it
> forces you to form groups whose net effectiveness is greater than the
> sum of their parts, and who collectively can stomp on all the
> individual Lisp programmers out there, even though one-on-one a Lisper
> can run rings around a C programmer.
> *************************************************
>
> So, now we know why. ;-))
>
>
> regards
hm ... I can't think of a single project where Lisp programmers are
competing with C programmers ... this guy is living in the past.
"Myth #6: What you know matters more than who you know." is pretty good
though and should get a much higher ranking.
-klaus
klaus wrote:
> "Myth #6: What you know matters more than who you know." is pretty good
> though and should get a much higher ranking.
But we all know Ron, but none of us (save one that I know of) has
actually made significant money on Lisp, knowing Ron must not be too
important. :-)
In article <························@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
········@gmail.com wrote:
> klaus wrote:
>
> > "Myth #6: What you know matters more than who you know." is pretty good
> > though and should get a much higher ranking.
>
> But we all know Ron, but none of us (save one that I know of) has
> actually made significant money on Lisp, knowing Ron must not be too
> important. :-)
Patience, grasshopper.
rg
Ron Garret wrote:
> Patience, grasshopper.
Myth #11? ;-)
From: Lars Brinkhoff
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <85d5995ygs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
··········@yahoo.de writes:
> I just read Ron Garrets newest blog entry
(Which isn't really about Lisp programmers.)
> > Lisp programmers never develop the social skills needed to work
> > effectively as a member of a team. A C programmer, by contrast,
> > can't do anything useful except as a member of a team.
It's my impression (but have no data to back this up) that these days,
many Lisp programmers have day jobs where they program in C (or
similar languages). If that's the case, a modern Lisp programmer
should have social skills about as good as the average C programmer.
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: The proof:Why Lisp doesn't generate successful biz
Date:
Message-ID: <op.tgukrplzpqzri1@pandora.upc.no>
On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 19:44:57 +0200, <··········@yahoo.de> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I just read Ron Garrets newest blog entry
> ( http://rondam.blogspot.com/2006/10/top-ten-geek-business-myths.html )
> He writes there the proof why Lisp
> devs cannot get successful in the business marketplace:
>
> ************************************************
> Ironically, C programmers understand this much better than Lisp
> programmers. One of the ironies of the programming world is that using
> Lisp is vastly more productive than using pretty much any other
> programming language, but successful businesses based on Lisp are quite
> rare. The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so
> productive that a single person can get things done without having to
> work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop
> the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team. A C
> programmer, by contrast, can't do anything useful except as a member of
> a team. So although programming in C hobbles you in some ways, it
> forces you to form groups whose net effectiveness is greater than the
> sum of their parts, and who collectively can stomp on all the
> individual Lisp programmers out there, even though one-on-one a Lisper
> can run rings around a C programmer.
> *************************************************
>
> So, now we know why. ;-))
>
>
> regards
>
Good ideas gennerate buisness.
Good buisness sense.
Not good programming languages.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
"John Thingstad" <··············@chello.no> writes:
> Good ideas gennerate buisness.
> Good buisness sense.
> Not good programming languages.
But good programming tools may help you keep your business sustainable
and profitable in the long run. Maybe that's where lisp excels?
i.e. that Ron won't find the stories he's looking for - as long as he
keeps looking for the lisp-made-me-a-zillionaire-in-two-years-
and-now-I'm-retired-and-surfing-on-hawaii examples?
--
(espen)
On 2 Oct 2006 10:44:57 -0700, ··········@yahoo.de wrote:
>A C programmer, by contrast, can't do anything useful except as a member
>of a team. So although programming in C hobbles you in some ways, it
>forces you to form groups whose net effectiveness is greater than the
>sum of their parts
Interesting. So I guess the 3 years I spent as the sole software
developer for a small OEM and the 5 largish (30..50K line) commercial
C applications I wrote during that period don't count because I wasn't
part of a "team".
I knew it was too good to be true.
George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address