Please see: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/cllfaq.html
The purpose of this page is to help those new to Lisp (aka. "newbies")
gain some background before they enter the fray of comp.lang.lisp
(c.l.l). These are (mostly) pointers into c.l.l discussions. This is
not a complete Lisp FAQ! Once you have a sense of Lisp and of how c.l.l
operates you should have no trouble finding all the additional
information you need, either by your own search efforts, or by asking
the community.
If you have issues with any specific topic please post on c.l.l in the
appropriate thread. If you have an issue regarding the content of this
page itself, please post on c.l.l in this thread. In any case please do
not send private email; the idea is to have a community-wide discussion
about these sorts of things.
········@gmail.com wrote:
> Please see: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/cllfaq.html
>
> The purpose of this page is to help those new to Lisp (aka. "newbies")
> gain some background before they enter the fray of comp.lang.lisp
> (c.l.l). These are (mostly) pointers into c.l.l discussions. This is
> not a complete Lisp FAQ! Once you have a sense of Lisp and of how c.l.l
> operates you should have no trouble finding all the additional
> information you need, either by your own search efforts, or by asking
> the community.
>
> If you have issues with any specific topic please post on c.l.l in the
> appropriate thread. If you have an issue regarding the content of this
> page itself, please post on c.l.l in this thread. In any case please do
> not send private email; the idea is to have a community-wide discussion
> about these sorts of things.
>
OK, just got the word from my boyz in Vegas:
Over/under on how long Shrager keeps this up: six months.
Over/under on how many noobs use these links: six.
:)
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> ········@gmail.com wrote:
>> Please see: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/cllfaq.html
>> The purpose of this page is to help those new to Lisp
>> (aka. "newbies")
>> gain some background before they enter the fray of comp.lang.lisp
>> (c.l.l). These are (mostly) pointers into c.l.l discussions. This is
>> not a complete Lisp FAQ! Once you have a sense of Lisp and of how c.l.l
>> operates you should have no trouble finding all the additional
>> information you need, either by your own search efforts, or by asking
>> the community.
>> If you have issues with any specific topic please post on c.l.l in
>> the
>> appropriate thread. If you have an issue regarding the content of this
>> page itself, please post on c.l.l in this thread. In any case please do
>> not send private email; the idea is to have a community-wide discussion
>> about these sorts of things.
>>
>
> OK, just got the word from my boyz in Vegas:
>
> Over/under on how long Shrager keeps this up: six months.
> Over/under on how many noobs use these links: six.
That would count as a jackpot for the group.
········@gmail.com <········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please see: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/cllfaq.html
>
> The purpose of this page is to help those new to Lisp (aka. "newbies")
> gain some background before they enter the fray of comp.lang.lisp
> (c.l.l).
Given this mission statement, I find some of the selections pretty
strange.
For a couple of examples "Q: Can Lisp be used for massive data
analysis?". That's not an FAQ, and the thread is showing c.l.l at its
rambing, ignorant worst. Or "Q: Can Lisp be used for heavy duty
numerical computation?", which might qualify for something that's
discussed frequently. But that thread is horrible. I'm ashamed of
having taken part in it. It's got a couple of hundred posts, most of
which are not about using Lisp for numeric computing. If a newbie
manages to wade through the bile, he's probably going to walk away
thinking that the answer to the question is actually "no, I probably
can't".
These two threads are just about diametrically opposed to the kinds of
threads that I would like to see on c.l.l. Pointing them out to
newbies as apparently good examples is likely to either drive them
away (if they have good taste) or encourage them to act the same way.
> If you have issues with any specific topic please post on c.l.l in the
> appropriate thread.
Please don't. Resurrecting threads that have been dormant for months
is bad manners. (And more pragmatically, most people probably *can't*
post in the appropriate thread anymore, since they've been expired
from the spool).
> If you have an issue regarding the content of this > page itself,
> please post on c.l.l in this thread.
Maybe title "Q: Is Lisp a compiled language?" as "Q: Can I make
executables with lisp?", or something.
"Q: What does EVAL do?" does this really merit inclusion?
I wouldn't use the posts from "gavino" as examples. The little shit
has been harassing the newsgroup (and other fora) for ages, and will
probably just get excited at his trolling being validated by inclusion
to the list. And really, they aren't the sort of "mistakes" that any
real newbie would make.
--
Juho Snellman
> For a couple of examples "Q: Can Lisp be used for massive data
> analysis?". That's not an FAQ, and the thread is showing c.l.l at its
> rambing, ignorant worst. Or "Q: Can Lisp be used for heavy duty
> numerical computation?", which might qualify for something that's
> discussed frequently. But that thread is horrible. I'm ashamed of
> having taken part in it. It's got a couple of hundred posts, most of
> which are not about using Lisp for numeric computing. If a newbie
> manages to wade through the bile, he's probably going to walk away
> thinking that the answer to the question is actually "no, I probably
> can't".
>
> These two threads are just about diametrically opposed to the kinds of
> threads that I would like to see on c.l.l. Pointing them out to
> newbies as apparently good examples is likely to either drive them
> away (if they have good taste) or encourage them to act the same way.
I'm happy to replace these if you can find a better thread, or delete
them if no one comes to their rescue.
> > If you have issues with any specific topic please post on c.l.l in the
> > appropriate thread.
>
> Please don't. Resurrecting threads that have been dormant for months
> is bad manners. (And more pragmatically, most people probably *can't*
> post in the appropriate thread anymore, since they've been expired
> from the spool).
I didn't realize that threads expired; I'll correct this. But to what?
> Maybe title "Q: Is Lisp a compiled language?" as "Q: Can I make
> executables with lisp?", or something.
Ok. Will do.
> "Q: What does EVAL do?" does this really merit inclusion?
Possibly not; I was sort of dubious of this myself.
> I wouldn't use the posts from "gavino" as examples. The little shit
> has been harassing the newsgroup (and other fora) for ages, and will
> probably just get excited at his trolling being validated by inclusion
> to the list. And really, they aren't the sort of "mistakes" that any
> real newbie would make.
Okay.
Thanks for the feedback!
········@gmail.com <········@gmail.com> wrote:
>> For a couple of examples "Q: Can Lisp be used for massive data
>> analysis?". That's not an FAQ, and the thread is showing c.l.l at its
>> rambing, ignorant worst. Or "Q: Can Lisp be used for heavy duty
>> numerical computation?", which might qualify for something that's
>> discussed frequently.
[...]
> I'm happy to replace these if you can find a better thread, or delete
> them if no one comes to their rescue.
This one at least stays focused on the topic and comes to a satisfying
conclusion:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/aec5eecbe3f5d2a8/5314888a3cd1f853
Of course the program that's being optimized there is rather trivial,
but one can't have it all :-/
>> > If you have issues with any specific topic please post on c.l.l in the
>> > appropriate thread.
>>
>> Please don't. Resurrecting threads that have been dormant for months
>> is bad manners. (And more pragmatically, most people probably *can't*
>> post in the appropriate thread anymore, since they've been expired
>> from the spool).
>
> I didn't realize that threads expired; I'll correct this. But to what?
On most normal NNTP servers the posts will be completely inaccessible
after a brief period of time, maybe a few weeks. On Google Groups
they'll be visible permanently, but even there you can't reply to
sufficiently old messages.
I don't have any good suggestions on what to replace that with, sorry.
--
Juho Snellman
Juho Snellman wrote:
> ········@gmail.com <········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Please see: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/cllfaq.html
>>
>>The purpose of this page is to help those new to Lisp (aka. "newbies")
>>gain some background before they enter the fray of comp.lang.lisp
>>(c.l.l).
>
>
> Given this mission statement, I find some of the selections pretty
> strange.
No good deed goes unpunished. Do something useful and walking dead like
Juho who had no energy before to do anything to help anyone suddenly
jump to their feet to piss all over your work.
Makes me proud of c.l.l.
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> No good deed goes unpunished. Do something useful and walking dead like
> Juho who had no energy before to do anything to help anyone suddenly
> jump to their feet to piss all over your work.
I'm not sure of what you mean by "had no energy to do anything to help
anyone". Why, just yesterday I helped an old lady cross the street.
Jeff asked for feedback, and he specifically requested that the
feedback be posted on c.l.l rather than emailed.
--
Juho Snellman
Juho Snellman wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>No good deed goes unpunished. Do something useful and walking dead like
>>Juho who had no energy before to do anything to help anyone suddenly
>>jump to their feet to piss all over your work.
>
>
> I'm not sure of what you mean by "had no energy to do anything to help
> anyone".
Just random, unjustified flamery.
> Why, just yesterday I helped an old lady cross the street.
Good for you. Fireman's carry or just moral support?
>
> Jeff asked for feedback, and he specifically requested that the
> feedback be posted on c.l.l rather than emailed.
>
You offered him help individually? Directed at his specific question? A
little slow on the uptake, eh? He wanted this link:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/faqs/about-faqs/
hth,kzo
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> No good deed goes unpunished. Do something useful and walking dead like
> Juho who had no energy before to do anything to help anyone suddenly jump
> to their feet to piss all over your work.
I cannot understand this remark. Juho certainly has helped me several
times, and I think that his contribution was helpful also in this case.
Nicolas
Nicolas Neuss wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>No good deed goes unpunished. Do something useful and walking dead like
>>Juho who had no energy before to do anything to help anyone suddenly jump
>>to their feet to piss all over your work.
>
>
> I cannot understand this remark.
It was before I had been to the FAQ and seen what a disaster it was.
> Juho certainly has helped me several
> times, and I think that his contribution was helpful also in this case.
Hey, Juho likes Usenet flaming, don't worry about him.
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
········@gmail.com wrote:
> Please see: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/cllfaq.html
>
lovely. The first link, to the ALU itself, fails, apparently because the
site itself is down. Go Lisp!
Meanwhile...
> Q: Why do Lisp programmers find Lisp so compelling?
>
> Read this c.l.l thread where Lisp hackers share their "Aha!" moments.
My concern here is that that thread is mostly stuff offered in obscure
(to noobs) phrases like "special variables!!!!". Look for all that to
clear nooby heads with room to spare.
I think the RtL would be a better offering here. Except that it, too, is
on the ALU site. :)
Of course one can argue that the RtL is reachable from the first link
(or will be someday when the site comes back up) but then this is
precisely why I do not like this entire project. Not only are you
shooing people away from speaking to real live Lispniks on c.l.l., but
when they get to where they have been shooed they do not find the
information they seek, they find a few more pointers to be dereferenced
to "large wadges of stuff on Lisp" or (you have to be kidding) c.l.l
threads. The poor sod started off with a simple question, obediently did
not disturb us from our sleep, and instead followed a link to a page
that either lands them in a giant sea of undifferentiated information of
uneven quality thru which they must sort, or a hit-or-miss
back-and-forth long drawn-out conversation of again uneven quality they
have to read.
These are noobs. They want help. We should be helping. You are the
expert. You are supposed to separate wheat/chaff for them. Don't post a
link to the ALU, post at least two links, one to the real Lisp FAQ and
one to the RtL.
Instead you are like a new yorker asked for directions and before they
can even get out the words "...to Carnegie Hall" you have responded "Use
Google Maps. And rent the French Connection. The chase scene covers most
of Manhattan."
My2.
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> > Q: Why do Lisp programmers find Lisp so compelling?
>...
> I think the RtL would be a better offering here.
Good idea; Fixed!
> Of course one can argue that the RtL is reachable from the first link
> (or will be someday when the site comes back up) but then this is
> precisely why I do not like this entire project. Not only are you
> shooing people away from speaking to real live Lispniks on c.l.l., but
> when they get to where they have been shooed they do not find the
> information they seek, they find a few more pointers to be dereferenced
> to "large wadges of stuff on Lisp" or (you have to be kidding) c.l.l
> threads.
I think you're right. My initial theory was that c.l.l provided a
continuously-updated self-managing FAQ, and that all one needed to do
was to point into it, thus resolving the problem of FAQs constantly
going out of date and having to be re-uped. But as you and the other
good folk in this thread have pointed out, c.l.l is too noisy a source,
esp. for a beginner. So I was simply wrong about that.
I still believe the theory of a brief meta-faq is a good one, but
pointing into c.l.l threads isn't going to work. Fortunately, there's
enough other content to point to that I think that that part of the
theory still works, even if the "pointing into c.l.l threads" part does
not.
Anyway, I've done lots of tuning based upon this conversation.
········@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Anyway, I've done lots of tuning based upon this conversation.
>
btw, is it possible to link to Kent Pitman's performance on slashdot?
that would be part of "why lisp?", as would I believe the Intro or an
early chapter of "On Lisp". Indeed, a prominent link to all of Paul's
Lisp stuff would cover a lot of ground.
As for educational stuff, whoa, what an impressive List:
http://www.alu.org/alu/res-lisp-education
But highlighting PCL and On Lisp cannot hurt, then the CLHS, boom, yer done.
No, wait. Tell them not to modify '(a b c). And that there is more like
that in:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part1/faq.html
my2,kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
On 2006-11-18 06:49:01 -0500, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:
> And rent the French Connection. The chase scene covers most of Manhattan.
Actually it was shot in Brooklyn.
·········@gmail.com" <········@gmail.com> writes:
> Please see: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/cllfaq.html
Q: Where do I start learning about Lisp?
Mention: http://www.cliki.net/
and: http://www.cliki.net/Online%20Tutorial
The second question should be:
Q: I've got a suggestion for a parenthesis-less lisp syntax.
What do you think of it?
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
"You can tell the Lisp programmers. They have pockets full of punch
cards with close parentheses on them." --> http://tinyurl.com/8ubpf
> The purpose of this page is to help those new to Lisp (aka. "newbies")
> gain some background before they enter the fray of comp.lang.lisp
As I fall into the "target market" for this FAQ I still feel it's a
good idea.
For me the best sources have been Practical Common Lisp (which I
started reading on line and then bought for convenience), CLHS and this
newsgroup. With those three I've found answers to all but one of my
questions (the one exception was regarding Ltk and posted to the
appropriate mailing list).
So long as we realize that the effort won't stop
1. trolls
2. the truly lazy
...and nothing short of list moderation ever seems to!
But with the above links somehow added, I think it would make a useful
starting point so thanks for taking the time.
Phil
I've update based upon all of these suggestions. (My goal is to keep it
at about a page-or-so of content, which seems to be working out even as
additional stuff is added.)
········@gmail.com wrote:
> I've update based upon all of these suggestions.
I would say "especially http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film", not
Kenny's Top Ten (unless you actually think it has merit--I have not
looked at it in years).
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> I would say "especially http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film"...
Done. BTW, AFAIKT the RtL isn't editable (per its posted instructions).
Is there any way to add newbies (or new entries of oldbies) to it?
········@gmail.com wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>I would say "especially http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film"...
>
>
> Done. BTW, AFAIKT the RtL isn't editable (per its posted instructions).
> Is there any way to add newbies (or new entries of oldbies) to it?
>
I don't know. I /was/ able to edit the highlight film, but did not try
creating a new page. Those instructions I guess are obsolete given
recent changes. Patches welcome.
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon