Most everyone who frequents c.l.l knows Lisp is pretty awesome; Common Lisp
has a massive and useful spec, some really neato libraries, is way more fun
to program in than most other languages, and is just generally totally
kick-ass. That, and in some cases a misunderstood appetite for noobs, is why
we're here.
But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp weenie?
(If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
(Do you still find yourself thinking that once you've grown out of
smug-lisp-weenie-ism?)
-pinterface
Normally I'd think that this was a troll, but some background research
reveals that you're an actual lisp hacker, so I'll take a chance an
treat this as a serious question:
Pixel // pinterface wrote:
> But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp weenie?
> (If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
First off, we spell "weenie" with an "e" or an "h", as in either
"engineer" or "hacker". And, as for "smug", well, if you have the best
tools on earth, it's hard to avoid a touch of smugness.
> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
You secretly write a lisp cross compiler from a lisp-based
meta-language to whatever you're required to work in.
> (Do you still find yourself thinking that once you've grown out of
> smug-lisp-weenie-ism?)
Sorry; Couldn't parse that last question.
<········@gmail.com> wrote in message
·····························@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Normally I'd think that this was a troll, but some background research
> reveals that you're an actual lisp hacker, so I'll take a chance an
> treat this as a serious question:
For however little it may be worth from a suspected troll, no trolling was
actually intended--gavino has that covered quite well ?--; so thanks for the
benefit of the doubt.
> Pixel // pinterface wrote:
> > But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp
weenie?
> > (If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
>
> First off, we spell "weenie" with an "e" or an "h", as in either
> "engineer" or "hacker". And, as for "smug", well, if you have the best
> tools on earth, it's hard to avoid a touch of smugness.
*chuckles* So, essentially, by being too busy working? Not bad advice. I
should probably heed it and get back to working on my own code.
[snip]
-- pinterface Off to do something productive! (In theory.)
Pixel // pinterface wrote:
> But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp weenie?
Be able to name a few things you dislike about your favorite Lisp
dialect. Know the strengths of other languages.
Pixel // pinterface wrote:
> Most everyone who frequents c.l.l knows Lisp is pretty awesome; Common Lisp
> has a massive and useful spec, some really neato libraries, is way more fun
> to program in than most other languages, and is just generally totally
> kick-ass. That, and in some cases a misunderstood appetite for noobs, is why
> we're here.
>
> But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp weenie?
> (If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
>
Every few days take a walk to a large body of water and stare at it for
a while.
> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
> (Do you still find yourself thinking that once you've grown out of
> smug-lisp-weenie-ism?)
>
Eventually you see where the chess pieces are even when they're not on
the board.
> -pinterface
"Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
Zach
Zach Beane wrote:
> "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
>>you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
>
>
> I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
> how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
> for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
Defeatist nonsense I believe you do not even believe. It's like trying
to use a five-year old box to surf the internet on a 28kbaud dial-up --
grin and bear it? I don't think so.
Although I am not sure we completely disagree: there is no need to fight
the tool if Lispiness can be coaxed out of it, however pale the
imitation. If too pale, the discontent will fuel the Greenspunning your
namby-pamby dont-worry-be-happy shiny-smiling-faces acquiescence never
will. At the extreme one tosses off something amazing on one's own dime
and converts the whole organization to Lisp with a dazzling demo. I
recommned lotsa cartoon sound effects, people love those.
:)
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> Zach Beane wrote:
> > "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >>For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> >>you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
> > I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
> > how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
> > for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
>
> Defeatist nonsense I believe you do not even believe. It's like
> trying to use a five-year old box to surf the internet on a 28kbaud
> dial-up -- grin and bear it? I don't think so.
Nobody seems to take "something you can't use" seriously.
If there's something you think is better for the task at hand, and you
can get it, get it and use it! If you can't use the tools you want
(for whatever reason), either change your environment or make the best
possible use of the tools at hand.
It's hard to produce great results in a constrained environment if you
hate the tools you must use; you'll just be miserable. If you also
vocally complain about how much better things should be, everyone
around you will be miserable too.
Zach
>>>>> "ZB" == Zach Beane <····@xach.com> writes:
ZB> "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
>> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do
>> you cope when you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this
>> were lisp I could just ..."?
ZB> I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good
ZB> work learn how to avoid fighting their tools and
ZB> environment. Constantly pining for something you can't use for
ZB> the task at hand inhibits proficiency
Or a corollary to Greenspun's Tenth Law.
People who do good work do so in part because they choose the right
tools and environment. Intelligent people who want to do good work
but are saddled with tools and an environment inadequate to the task
spend time improving their tools and environment first. There's also
little profit in choosing an environment and toolset because it offers
a particular tradeoff, and then complaining about the things you had
to trade away to get the benefit.
Done unconsciously, this tool and environment improvement leads to
Greenspun's Tenth Law. Done consciously, it is a mark of
intelligence; humans are tool-building creatures, after all.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
·······@chromatico.net
Zach Beane <····@xach.com> writes:
> "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
>> you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
>
> I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
> how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
> for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
Indeed, if all you're given is a pair of shoes, you'd better be happy
with them and wear them properly (right shoe on righ foot, left shoe
on left foot, tie laces, etc), and use them properly (put one left
foot before the right; put right foot before the left; repeat),
instead of complaining you don't have a car or a plane. No matter if
your destination is 2 continents accross, you're payed by the hour, so
walk!
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
"You cannot really appreciate Dilbert unless you read it in the
original Klingon"
Pascal Bourguignon <···@informatimago.com> writes:
> Indeed, if all you're given is a pair of shoes, you'd better be happy
> with them and wear them properly (right shoe on righ foot, left shoe
> on left foot, tie laces, etc), and use them properly (put one left
> foot before the right; put right foot before the left; repeat),
> instead of complaining you don't have a car or a plane. No matter if
> your destination is 2 continents accross, you're payed by the hour, so
> walk!
Pining for things available to you is even more foolish than pining
for things that are unavailable.
Zach
Zach Beane wrote:
> "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> > you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
>
> I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
> how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
> for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
>
> Zach
Oh yeah? Go rake your yard with a dead tree branch; you'll soon learn
what it means to fight your tools---and win.
When you're done with that, go write a program in <a
href="http://jes.com/pb/">Pick Basic</a>. Best taken like Mithradates'
poison.
Tim S
"numeromancer" <·······@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> Zach Beane wrote:
>
> > "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> > > you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
> >
> > I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
> > how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
> > for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
> >
> > Zach
>
> Oh yeah? Go rake your yard with a dead tree branch; you'll soon learn
> what it means to fight your tools---and win.
Using the wrong tool when a better one is availalable is also a sign
of incompetence. If you can control what is available, use the right
stuff.
Zach
Zach Beane wrote:
> "numeromancer" <·······@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> > Zach Beane wrote:
> >
> > > "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> > > > you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
> > >
> > > I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
> > > how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
> > > for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
> > >
> > > Zach
> >
> > Oh yeah? Go rake your yard with a dead tree branch; you'll soon learn
> > what it means to fight your tools---and win.
>
> Using the wrong tool when a better one is availalable is also a sign
> of incompetence. If you can control what is available, use the right
> stuff.
>
> Zach
If.
From: Peder O. Klingenberg
Subject: Re: How do you Avoid Becoming a Smug Lisp Weenie?
Date:
Message-ID: <ksslgf19oa.fsf@beto.netfonds.no>
Zach Beane <····@xach.com> writes:
> "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
>> you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
>
> I think this is a sign of incompetence. People who do good work learn
> how to avoid fighting their tools and environment. Constantly pining
> for something you can't use for the task at hand inhibits proficiency
Straight out of uni, I landed a job maintaining a largish body of
PL/SQL code. I would'nt say I was _constantly_ pining for Lisp, but
the bug tracker/source control system did see its fair share of Lisp
references in explaining concepts behind fixes. I also did a good
amount of metaprogramming, only I couldn't use macros and runtime code
generation, so I made PL/SQL scripts that wrote PL/SQL scripts that
wrote PL/SQL scripts.
I will claim I became quite proficient at PL/SQL at that gig. If you
wish to declare me incompetent, that's something I'll manage to cope
with. :)
Pining for Lisp was not the reason I left, but the beauty and power of
PL/SQL was not exactly a reason to stay, either. I now have a
full-time Lisp job, and don't need to pine for its power at all
anymore. :)
...Peder...
--
I wish a new life awaited _me_ in some off-world colony.
Pixel // pinterface wrote:
> Most everyone who frequents c.l.l knows Lisp is pretty awesome; Common Lisp
> has a massive and useful spec, some really neato libraries, is way more fun
> to program in than most other languages, and is just generally totally
> kick-ass. That, and in some cases a misunderstood appetite for noobs, is why
> we're here.
>
> But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp weenie?
Well, one dictionary just says "self-satisfied or complacent". I think
the context lets us parse "self" as "Lisp". Another reference throws in
"excessively", which I think we need because mehinks "smug" always has a
negative connotation. And I think we need to go further and say "smug"
also involves a social aspect of rubbing someone else's nose in it.
Whatever it is. With all that on the table, the serious answer comes
from the Tao Te Ching, lessee, on about every other page:
"A man on tiptoe cannot walk easily."
Or:
"Never trying to impress, their being shines forth
Never saying 'this is it', people see what the truth is --
Never boasting, they leave the space in which they can be valued
...
And since they never argue, no one argues with them either."
Lao Tzu clearly would be no fun in a flame war.
> (If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
Flame wars are fun?
Becall that no one set out to be an SLW, it just happens because Lisp is
so frickin good. And the smugness in many cases is only in the eye of
the Java programmer -- the Lispnik is just frickin happy and it pisses
off the people who hate their programming work.
Smug is also good marketing: See the "What Do They Know That I Do Not
Know" section of the RtL, and Pascal Costanza's sound bite in re
Gabriel's smuggery. I mean, are you really ready for Gavino to be asking
"If Lisp is so great how come you guys are not smug?"
hth, kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Since we are in quotation mode let me add this:
Always drink upstream from the herd.
I have lost he attribution but I hink it sums up the value of Lisp
interest very nicely.
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech | christian ··@ defun #\. dk
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- ·······@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
"Ken Tilton" <·········@gmail.com> wrote in message
·······················@newsfe11.lga...
>
[snip sage advice from the Tao Te Ching]
>
> > (If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
>
> Flame wars are fun?
>
> Becall that no one set out to be an SLW, it just happens because Lisp is
> so frickin good. And the smugness in many cases is only in the eye of
> the Java programmer -- the Lispnik is just frickin happy and it pisses
> off the people who hate their programming work.
>
> Smug is also good marketing: See the "What Do They Know That I Do Not
> Know" section of the RtL, and Pascal Costanza's sound bite in re
> Gabriel's smuggery. I mean, are you really ready for Gavino to be asking
> "If Lisp is so great how come you guys are not smug?"
*laughs* I believe that to be the best argument for smugness I have yet
heard. My skipping the Road to Lisp section of the ALU wiki was clearly a
mistake--a mistake I intend to rectify in short order.
> hth, kt
It does indeed.
-pinterface
Pixel // pinterface wrote:
> "Ken Tilton" <·········@gmail.com> wrote in message
> ·······················@newsfe11.lga...
>
> [snip sage advice from the Tao Te Ching]
>
>>>(If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
>>
>>Flame wars are fun?
>>
>>Becall that no one set out to be an SLW, it just happens because Lisp is
>>so frickin good. And the smugness in many cases is only in the eye of
>>the Java programmer -- the Lispnik is just frickin happy and it pisses
>>off the people who hate their programming work.
>>
>>Smug is also good marketing: See the "What Do They Know That I Do Not
>>Know" section of the RtL, and Pascal Costanza's sound bite in re
>>Gabriel's smuggery. I mean, are you really ready for Gavino to be asking
>>"If Lisp is so great how come you guys are not smug?"
>
>
> *laughs* I believe that to be the best argument for smugness I have yet
> heard. My skipping the Road to Lisp section of the ALU wiki was clearly a
> mistake--a mistake I intend to rectify in short order.
You are looking for http://wiki.alu.org/Dave_Fayram's_Road_to_Lisp
"I'm starting to see why so many Lisp users seem so damn smug. Lisp is
doing what cutting-edge scripting languages are doing. It has been doing
them since the 1970's. Moreover, it's doing them faster, and in a more
generalized manner!"
I just made quite a few additions to the highlight film, probably the
best index to the roads:
http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Math education rant: ttp://www.tilton-technology.com/LispNycAlgebra1.htm
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 05:06:38 +0100, Pixel // pinterface
<··········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most everyone who frequents c.l.l knows Lisp is pretty awesome; Common
> Lisp
> has a massive and useful spec, some really neato libraries, is way more
> fun
> to program in than most other languages, and is just generally totally
> kick-ass. That, and in some cases a misunderstood appetite for noobs, is
> why
> we're here.
>
> But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp
> weenie?
> (If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
>
> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope
> when
> you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just
> ..."?
> (Do you still find yourself thinking that once you've grown out of
> smug-lisp-weenie-ism?)
>
> -pinterface
>
>
http://patricklogan.blogspot.com/2005/01/smug-lisp-weenies.html
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
On Nov 16, 8:06 pm, "Pixel // pinterface" <··········@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Most everyone who frequents c.l.l knows Lisp is pretty awesome; Common Lisp
> has a massive and useful spec, some really neato libraries, is way more fun
> to program in than most other languages, and is just generally totally
> kick-ass. That, and in some cases a misunderstood appetite for noobs, is why
> we're here.
>
> But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp weenie?
> (If you happen to think being a smug lisp weenie is a good thing, why?)
>
> For those of you who have to work in other languages, how do you cope when
> you find yourself thinking "Gee, if only this were lisp I could just ..."?
> (Do you still find yourself thinking that once you've grown out of
> smug-lisp-weenie-ism?)
>
> -pinterface
I avoid it by not knowing lisp in the first place.
he he
Le Fri, 17 Nov 2006 04:06:38 +0000, Pixel // pinterface a écrit:
> But armed with that knowledge, how do you avoid becoming a smug lisp
> weenie?
Well, I run my own business, and I quickly decided to switch all my work
to Lisp. So I happily do everything with Lisp now...
Independantly,
Nowhere man
--
···········@levallois.eu.org
OpenPGP 0xD9D50D8A