Dear All,
In the near future we are going to have to make some Lisp programmers,
why? Well because we can't hire them. There really are not any!
Anyway - last night myself and one of my staff (a trainee) did the
Myers Briggs thing and we came out as very similar character types ENTP
and ISTP, now being an ENTP I look for patterns in things! So you can
imagine my excitement when there was a pattern!
Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
in results?
Paul
www.hyperstring.net
On Nov 15, 4:49 pm, "hyperstring.net ltd"
<············@hyperstring.net> wrote:
> In the near future we are going to have to make some Lisp programmers,
> why? Well because we can't hire them. There really are not any!
Hah, you should try finding Lisp jobs :-)
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
I did one years ago, INTJ.
I'm not sure I'd call myself a Lisp hacker, but I do like to pretend
that I'm
working on it .
--
-asbjxrn
On Nov 15, 9:49 am, "hyperstring.net ltd"
<············@hyperstring.net> wrote:
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
about two years ago I was INTP, now I seem to have crossed over to
ISTP...
On Nov 15, 9:49 am, "hyperstring.net ltd"
<············@hyperstring.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
>
> Paul
You might want to read this thread (contains a somewhat sad story IMO)
too:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/7a272abe6dc65e21/93a7503493edb3c4?lnk=gst&q=intj&rnum=1#93a7503493edb3c4
Ciao,
Thu
> You might want to read this thread (contains a somewhat sad story IMO)
> too:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/7a272abe6dc65e21/93a7503493edb3c4?lnk=gst&q=intj&rnum=1#93a7503493edb3c4
Based on the above thread, I believe that it is only sad if you look at it
from one direction or think the grass is greener on the other side. It
really depends on what we want out of life.
Lets compare an INTJ and an INTP. It seems that the view is that J types
get things done and P types just talk about things. I, being and INTP,
would say personally that I have talked about more good ideas (the
possibilities) than implemented them and that used to bug me. (However,
when someone is there to recognize and propel that idea, very good things
can happen.) It is important to understand that the J and the P indicate
what is communicated to the outside world.
An INTJ communicates his T (decision making) function to the outside
world. He appears decisive and yet his dominant function, iNtuition is
continuing to gather information. He will be very thorough about
getting the "right" information. He will undoubtedly get the ball rolling
and complete the project with the information at hand and/or gathered.
An INTP communicates his N (information gathering) function to the outside
world. He appears to others as open and undecided although internally he
is decisive. His T is dominant, introverted and not observable. He is
tackling the system internally and putting the pieces together in a big
way. If he is allowed to gather the essential information he will have
devised a very strong system in the end, one that is likely to be as
complete as possible and very well defined. Every possibility has to be
examined and sometimes this leads to new discoveries and more
possibilities. So, the original project may get put on the back shelf in
favor of something potentially more satisfying, rewarding or profitable.
In my own world I have had to work to create balance as I would much
rather fully understand something than get it out there in the world.
Type allows for development as one matures. I have found working with
INTJs to be very rewarding and frustrating at times. It seems amazing
to me that they can get so much done with what appears to me to be a
minimal understanding of a topic (when in reality the INTJ's iNtuition has
already looked at all the possibilities and narrowed them down to the
essential).
p.s. an INTJ helped in editing this commentary
hyperstring.net ltd wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> In the near future we are going to have to make some Lisp programmers,
> why? Well because we can't hire them. There really are not any!
>
> Anyway - last night myself and one of my staff (a trainee) did the
> Myers Briggs thing and we came out as very similar character types ENTP
> and ISTP, now being an ENTP I look for patterns in things! So you can
> imagine my excitement when there was a pattern!
>
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
Apparently, I am an INTJ or an INFJ (the T vs. F part seems to be unstable).
Be careful when taking online tests. It typically takes an expert to
carry them out, and personal introspection is not very reliable.
Pascal
--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
On Nov 15, 11:04 am, "hyperstring.net ltd"
<············@hyperstring.net> wrote:
> This is fascinating
>
> It seems the T is common amongst all of us!
not realy surprising, is it?
On Nov 15, 12:25 pm, "Christopher Koppler" <········@chello.at> wrote:
> On Nov 15, 11:04 am, "hyperstring.net ltd"
>
> <············@hyperstring.net> wrote:
> > This is fascinating
>
> > It seems the T is common amongst all of us!not realy surprising, is it?
Kinda funny...
I tried the test one week ago; I was classified INTJ.
I think I did one or two years ago and it was also INTJ.
I'm not a lisp hacker, but it's just a matter of time :)
Ciao,
Thu
(message (Hello 'hyperstring.net)
(you :wrote :on '(15 Nov 2006 00:49:34 -0800))
(
hnl> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
hnl> in results?
i have INFP char type, although i think i was INTP before (at some point
i've rejected thinking in some aspects), so to preserve the pattern i can
think i'm INTP when doing programming :).
)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
"People who lust for the Feel of keys on their fingertips (c) Inity")
Alex Mizrahi wrote:
> (message (Hello 'hyperstring.net)
> (you :wrote :on '(15 Nov 2006 00:49:34 -0800))
> (
>
> hnl> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> hnl> in results?
>
> i have INFP char type, although i think i was INTP before (at some point
> i've rejected thinking in some aspects), so to preserve the pattern i can
> think i'm INTP when doing programming :).
>
> )
> (With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
> "People who lust for the Feel of keys on their fingertips (c) Inity")
This is fantastic news...lets keep the survey going!
LOL
Guys in the morning we will do some analysis of our findings - that
will satisfy my need for patterns. Some of you have kindly said you are
available for a Lisp programming job. At present we are awaiting a
couple of big projects. One could be huge.
If you are a Lisp hacker and you LOVE Lisp and would want to spend your
days wearing out the () keys on the keyboard you are just like me! So
please do send CV's over and when we have a post available or 50 we
will get in touch - even if you are not available right now, or
wouldn't mind some extra work - we may have some opportunities for home
workers.
We'd rather not train programmers if at all possible in the basics of
the Lisp way because the thinking is too different from a normal
programming language.
We do have a "Scholorship" Scheme where we take on school leavers with
absolutely no programming experience and bring them up to full Lisp
programmers - it's almost easier than trying to re-train a C++
programmer (would you believe), I know folks I've tried to do it -
it's like banging your head against a brick wall unless their
curiousity drags them over.
Paul
www.hyperstring.net
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: What makes a Lisp Hacker?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2006nov21-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "hyperstring.net ltd" <············@hyperstring.net>
> Some of you have kindly said you are available for a Lisp
> programming job.
Yeah. I've been available for the past 15 years, and I've made my
availability known from time to time, for example:
<http://groups.google.com/group/misc.jobs.resumes/msg/0d1bcbe92ff280fa>
= Message-ID: <············@remarQ.com>
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/662ae71b1e28748d>
= Message-ID: <·············@corp.supernews.com>
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a25c5d5ca184628b>
= Message-ID: <·················@Yahoo.Com>
You never hired me, or even interviewed me, or even inquired about
the possibility of my working for you, so I assume you've never
hired anyone for lisp programming so-far.
> At present we are awaiting a couple of big projects. One could be
> huge.
So sometime in the future, if you get the funds, you might start
hiring lisp programmers for the first time ever? If and when that
happens, please contact me. Meanwhile you know where to find three
copies of my lisp resume if you're curious about my lisp experience.
(message (Hello 'Robert)
(you :wrote :on '(Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:45:24 -0800))
(
RM> Yeah. I've been available for the past 15 years, and I've made my
RM> availability known from time to time, for example:
helo Robert, i've missed you!
you resumes are fantastic!
you were programming in assembly language from 1964, debugged COBOL
compiler, etc. doing some scientific stuff.
but then you went in 2003-04 to "DeAnza College -- computer programming
classes" to "2003.Sep-Dec: Taking intermediate C class" -- that's very
strange, you've started programming C at least 10 years ago, i see first
records in 1991.
also very strange record:
2004.Jun-Aug: Taking HTML class
it's strange because you were learning HTML for 2 years, 10 years ago --
1994.Oct to 1996.Sep
and all this is strange provided with early achievemnts:
- Among top five (in U.S.A.) in William Lowell Putnam undergraduate math.
competition. (1966)
did you have any traumas after that?
RM> So sometime in the future, if you get the funds, you might start
RM> hiring lisp programmers for the first time ever? If and when that
RM> happens, please contact me. Meanwhile you know where to find three
RM> copies of my lisp resume if you're curious about my lisp experience.
if i'll ever be able to, i'll hire you for sure -- you're legendary person!
you should consider writting autobiographical book -- i think it would be a
very interesting reading -- you resumes reflect all the path of IT industry!
and you're writting very good.
)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
"People who lust for the Feel of keys on their fingertips (c) Inity")
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: What makes a Lisp Hacker?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2006nov27-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Alex Mizrahi" <········@users.sourceforge.net>
> but then you went in 2003-04 to "DeAnza College -- computer
> programming classes" to "2003.Sep-Dec: Taking intermediate C class"
> -- that's very strange, you've started programming C at least 10
> years ago, i see first records in 1991.
I didn't yet know any C++ or Java, both of which are required for
modern programming jobs, and I didn't have the incentive to figure
out both on my own, so I needed to take classes in them. The series
of C classes were a prerequisite for any C++ or Java class, so I
was stuck in the C classes prior to the ones I really wanted.
> also very strange record:
> 2004.Jun-Aug: Taking HTML class
> it's strange because you were learning HTML for 2 years, 10 years
> ago -- 1994.Oct to 1996.Sep
At home my only access to the Web is via a VT100 dialup into Unix
shell. That precludes any embedded images or style sheets etc. The
HTML class was actually "Web Design", which included the topics I
couldn't teach myself over VT100 dialup. But I was disappointed
with the class: I expected it to teach me about (artistic)
**design** (of Web sites). Instead it only covered the technical
means to achieve an effect, nothing about the **design** itself. So
I got an 'A' in the course by making really cruddy-looking stuff
that used each of the technical means that was taught. I still
don't know anything about artistic design to make things look good.
But at least I have learned the technical means for style sheets,
embedded images with flowing text around them in various ways, etc.
So if I can ever get an artist non-programmer to tell me what
effect is desired, I should be able to produce that effect if it's
within the technical means we learned about.
> - Among top five (in U.S.A.) in William Lowell Putnam
> undergraduate math. competition. (1966)
> did you have any traumas after that?
That wasn't actually a trauma, more like a big surprise.
I expected to do pretty well, just not top five nationwide.
The big math-award trauma was when I was a sophomore in high school
and got a letter in the mail congratulating me for taking FIRST
PLACE in the SCU math contest (beating not just my classmates but
also all the juniors and seniors too). That was just a complete
shocker. (And after that, the girls had yet one more reason to shun
me, so it was socially horrible too.)
But yes I've had other traumas, such as when nearly everything I
owned burned up in a fire. Some things like that are covered in my
diary, titled "I was a teenage mathematician".
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> also very strange record:
>> 2004.Jun-Aug: Taking HTML class
>> it's strange because you were learning HTML for 2 years, 10 years
>> ago -- 1994.Oct to 1996.Sep
The strangest thing is that you're actually interested in a job at
"hyperstring.net"....Have you been reading the c.l.l posts that come
out of there?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> I still
> don't know anything about artistic design to make things look good.
There are some high quality designs at http://www.oswd.org/ for free usage.
--
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
>>>>> "RM" == Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl com/uh3t
>>>>> <·······@Yahoo.Com> writes:
RM> I didn't yet know any C++ or Java, both of which are required
RM> for modern programming jobs,
Really? I've never had a modern programming job involving either.
Guess my career to date must be imaginary. In fact, I've
intentionally kept learning either at the bottom of my list of
priorities, because the sorts of jobs that require C++ or Java tend
not to be the sort of jobs I find interesting. They're not chosen
because they're powerful languages; they're chosen because they're
"industry standard" and a know-nothing HR department can find a dozen
buzzword-compliant candidates with either on their resume.
I did have a sysadmin job where I wound up debugging all the idiot
Java programmers' code because I was the only one with the wit to read
stack traces, but that's another story.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
·······@chromatico.net
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: What makes a Lisp Hacker?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2006nov28-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Charlton Wilbur <·······@chromatico.net>
> RM> I didn't yet know any C++ or Java, both of which are required
> RM> for modern programming jobs,
> Really? I've never had a modern programming job involving either.
Well maybe you did some *other* kind of programming job from the
kind of work I've done and am seeking. I do applications. Maybe you
did embedded systems, where all you need is C plus ten years
experience specifically at embedded systems. Before I guess any
more, please tell me what kind of programming you've done (and
gotten paid for) recently. But back to my situation: All the
regular appliction programming jobs I've seen advertised require
experience in several languages, usually including both C++ and
Java. For example:
! From: "Brad MacDonald" <·········@juniper.net>
! Based on an on-line resume, I believe you may be qualified for the position.
! Experience with C++, Perl, HTML, Javascript and UNIX/Linux is required.
(OK, that one doesn't require Java, but it *does* require C++,
where I have no experience, only one class, and Javascript, which
I have no access to here on VT100 dialup, and Perl, where my only
experience is basically a "hello world" plus CGI mini-demo:
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html#perl3>)
! Familiarity with UI technologies like CGI, PHP, Struts, Template Toolkit
! or .NET are highly desired.
(I have never even heard of Struts or Template Toolkit except in job ads,
so despite Brad's introduction I don't feel qualified for this job.)
! From: ······@coretechsinc.com
! I saw your resume on Dice and thought that you might be a good fit ...
! * Expert in multiple languages that span a variety of paradigms.
! Fluent in several of the following languages: C, C++, Perl,
! Python, Scheme, Common Lisp, Java, VB
(See, both C++ and Java listed there. I'm fluent only in Common
Lisp and maybe Java, which I don't think counts as "several".)
! Should this be of any interest to you then please send a word doc
! resume with a convenient time to follow up with you.
I have no access to MicroSoft Word near here. Next time I'm over at
EDD/Connect I might give a stab at sending a MS-Word resume.
! From: "Rick" <····@expanxion.net>
! The following position has just become available ...
! Programming wizardry in C/C++/Java/scripting (Perl, Python)
(Note both C++ and Java required here.
I have no such wizardry even in Java where I'm reasonably competant.)
! Participation in TREC or SIGIR
(I never heard of either one.)
! From: "Ashley Puri" <······@infosoft-inc.com>
! We located your resume on the WEB. ...
! - 2+ years of server-side JAVA development
(Java, but not C++, required here.)
! - 1+ year of XML related development experience
! - Good experience with Oracle/general SQL
! - Development experience on Weblogic and/or Tomcat development preferred.
(I have only a few weeks of class work related to server-side JAVA,
and no experience whatsoever in the other requirements.)
So anyway, my point is that of the last four job openings that have
been referred to me (by finding my resume online), all four require
at least one of C++ or Java, and 2 of them require *both*.
> I've intentionally kept learning either at the bottom of my list
> of priorities, because the sorts of jobs that require C++ or Java
> tend not to be the sort of jobs I find interesting.
"Beggars can't be choosers." You have an easy time finding jobs, so
you can pick and choose which jobs you find most interesting, and
reject all the rest. I don't have that luxury. I'm rather desperate
for any job whatsoever. I'd even work at MacDonalds if they would
hire me. (They turned me down because I have a college diploma.)
> They're not chosen because they're powerful languages; they're
> chosen because they're "industry standard" and a know-nothing HR
> department can find a dozen buzzword-compliant candidates with
> either on their resume.
Well I have those buzzwords on my resume, but only becaues I had
classes in each. Still I don't have the years of experience, nor
the particular expertise, needed for the available jobs.
(I haven't seen a regular Lisp job ad, where Lisp is the only
knowledge or experience needed, in so long I can't remember ever
seeing such a job ad.) Many years ago (circa 1992) I got
interviewed for a job doing Lisp programming inside AutoCAD, really
trivial stuff I would have found easy, but the interviewer kept
expressing the attitude that I'd probably find the work too boring,
and I tried to indicate I'd be glad for the paying work, but he
must have ignored everything I said because he didn't hire me.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > From: Charlton Wilbur <·······@chromatico.net>
> > RM> I didn't yet know any C++ or Java, both of which are required
> > RM> for modern programming jobs,
> > Really? I've never had a modern programming job involving either.
>
> Well maybe you did some *other* kind of programming job from the
> kind of work I've done and am seeking. I do applications. Maybe you
> did embedded systems, where all you need is C plus ten years
> experience specifically at embedded systems. Before I guess any
> more, please tell me what kind of programming you've done (and
> gotten paid for) recently. But back to my situation: All the
> regular appliction programming jobs I've seen advertised require
> experience in several languages, usually including both C++ and
> Java. For example:
>
> ! From: "Brad MacDonald" <·········@juniper.net>
> ! Based on an on-line resume, I believe you may be qualified for the position.
> ! Experience with C++, Perl, HTML, Javascript and UNIX/Linux is required.
> (OK, that one doesn't require Java, but it *does* require C++,
> where I have no experience, only one class, and Javascript, which
> I have no access to here on VT100 dialup, and Perl, where my only
> experience is basically a "hello world" plus CGI mini-demo:
> <http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html#perl3>)
> ! Familiarity with UI technologies like CGI, PHP, Struts, Template Toolkit
> ! or .NET are highly desired.
> (I have never even heard of Struts or Template Toolkit except in job ads,
> so despite Brad's introduction I don't feel qualified for this job.)
>
> ! From: ······@coretechsinc.com
> ! I saw your resume on Dice and thought that you might be a good fit ...
> ! * Expert in multiple languages that span a variety of paradigms.
> ! Fluent in several of the following languages: C, C++, Perl,
> ! Python, Scheme, Common Lisp, Java, VB
> (See, both C++ and Java listed there. I'm fluent only in Common
> Lisp and maybe Java, which I don't think counts as "several".)
>
> ! Should this be of any interest to you then please send a word doc
> ! resume with a convenient time to follow up with you.
>
> I have no access to MicroSoft Word near here. Next time I'm over at
> EDD/Connect I might give a stab at sending a MS-Word resume.
>
> ! From: "Rick" <····@expanxion.net>
> ! The following position has just become available ...
> ! Programming wizardry in C/C++/Java/scripting (Perl, Python)
> (Note both C++ and Java required here.
> I have no such wizardry even in Java where I'm reasonably competant.)
> ! Participation in TREC or SIGIR
> (I never heard of either one.)
>
> ! From: "Ashley Puri" <······@infosoft-inc.com>
> ! We located your resume on the WEB. ...
> ! - 2+ years of server-side JAVA development
> (Java, but not C++, required here.)
> ! - 1+ year of XML related development experience
> ! - Good experience with Oracle/general SQL
> ! - Development experience on Weblogic and/or Tomcat development preferred.
> (I have only a few weeks of class work related to server-side JAVA,
> and no experience whatsoever in the other requirements.)
>
> So anyway, my point is that of the last four job openings that have
> been referred to me (by finding my resume online), all four require
> at least one of C++ or Java, and 2 of them require *both*.
>
> > I've intentionally kept learning either at the bottom of my list
> > of priorities, because the sorts of jobs that require C++ or Java
> > tend not to be the sort of jobs I find interesting.
>
> "Beggars can't be choosers." You have an easy time finding jobs, so
> you can pick and choose which jobs you find most interesting, and
> reject all the rest. I don't have that luxury. I'm rather desperate
> for any job whatsoever. I'd even work at MacDonalds if they would
> hire me. (They turned me down because I have a college diploma.)
>
> > They're not chosen because they're powerful languages; they're
> > chosen because they're "industry standard" and a know-nothing HR
> > department can find a dozen buzzword-compliant candidates with
> > either on their resume.
>
> Well I have those buzzwords on my resume, but only becaues I had
> classes in each. Still I don't have the years of experience, nor
> the particular expertise, needed for the available jobs.
> (I haven't seen a regular Lisp job ad, where Lisp is the only
> knowledge or experience needed, in so long I can't remember ever
> seeing such a job ad.) Many years ago (circa 1992) I got
> interviewed for a job doing Lisp programming inside AutoCAD, really
> trivial stuff I would have found easy, but the interviewer kept
> expressing the attitude that I'd probably find the work too boring,
> and I tried to indicate I'd be glad for the paying work, but he
> must have ignored everything I said because he didn't hire me.
This is absurd. Why do you, Robert Maas, think any employer in the
world will care that you can't do something because you've bizarrely
chosen to limit yourself to technology that can run over a telnet
connection? In any case, you could certainly teach yourself HTML,
CSS, etc. without any kind of Internet connection.
And what's this about not being able to get a job at McDonald's? Did
you refuse to use their cash registers because they're "not VT100"?
I guarantee you that you can get a job at McDonald's or a comparable
store. I find it hard to believe that they would really turn you down
because of your education; if this is truly the case, then don't
mention your diploma. If you still can't pull it off, you have bigger
problems to worry about than the state of the software industry.
Stop whining and be realistic. Learn C++ and Java, if that's what
these jobs are looking for. This seems so straightforward that I
can't believe I even have to say it. If you are fluent in Common Lisp
(as you claim), then they should be tremendously easy to pick up.
Most job advertisements will ask for several years of experience in
various technologies; these describe the firm's *ideal* candidate.
They might *prefer* someone with five years of experience in X, but
they can't always get what they want (especially when X has been
around for less than five years; ha ha, only serious). You say you
haven't heard of Struts? So...go learn it? How do you expect to
acquire the skills you need to get jobs if you simply accept that you
don't know things? No one (I would hope) is born knowing how to
program Struts. You're a very foolish individual if you think we want
to hear about how you can't get jobs because you won't learn things.
P.S. Are you sure you want to be posting private e-mails on USENET?
>>>>> "BA" == Bill Atkins <·········@gmail.com> writes:
BA> And what's this about not being able to get a job at
BA> McDonald's? Did you refuse to use their cash registers
BA> because they're "not VT100"?
BA> I guarantee you that you can get a job at McDonald's or a
BA> comparable store. I find it hard to believe that they would
BA> really turn you down because of your education; if this is
BA> truly the case, then don't mention your diploma.
It's happened to me, though not at a McDonald's. I was trying to get
out of a truly hellish corporate job, and in desperation I applied at
several retail stores. One of the hiring managers actually told me
that he'd love to hire me, he thought I'd be an asset to the store,
but I had too much education for his managers to be happy --
*obviously* I'd leave them as soon as something better came along.
Something better, like a corporate IT job just like the one I was
trying to leave.
And if you lie, it makes it a lot harder to offer accurate references,
especially if you have worked in the industry before, at jobs that
would require education; and in most companies, having lied on the
application form, especially by omission, is grounds for immediate
firing. So I don't find it at all hard to believe that Mr Haas can't
get a job at McDonald's.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
·······@chromatico.net
Charlton Wilbur <·······@chromatico.net> writes:
> And if you lie, it makes it a lot harder to offer accurate references,
> especially if you have worked in the industry before, at jobs that
> would require education; and in most companies, having lied on the
> application form, especially by omission, is grounds for immediate
> firing. So I don't find it at all hard to believe that Mr Haas can't
> get a job at McDonald's.
Agreed. I didn't mean to suggest that he lie, just that it might make
sense not to mention that he has a college diploma if, indeed, it
turns out to be a mark against him instead of a mark in favor of him.
You're correct that it would probably be a question on the
application, though, so it might come up even if he tried not to
mention it.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: What makes a Lisp Hacker?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2006nov29-012@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Bill Atkins" <·········@gmail.com>
> Why do you, Robert Maas, think any employer in the world will
> care that you can't do something because you've bizarrely chosen
> to limit yourself to technology that can run over a telnet
> connection?
I didn't say any employer would care. I merely said that I am
unable to acquire significant practice at some technologies which
are inaccessible to me, so it'd be best for me not to apply to jobs
which require great experts at such technologies.
Nitpick on your wording. The technology doesn't run *over* a telnet
connection. My access *to* that technology is over a dialup/VT100
connection. (And, mostly transparent to me, the dialup uses a
telnet connection between the modem-server and the shell machine.)
The technology itself runs over TCP/IP links but using other
protocols, such as HTTP, not telnet.
> In any case, you could certainly teach yourself HTML, CSS, etc.
> without any kind of Internet connection.
Well I did teach myself HTML way back around 1995, and then
converted my toplevel meta-index to Web pages, and then maintained
them as Web pages for quite some months before Yahoo and Google got
useful enough that nobody needed my index any more.
However I don't have any machine that can be used to test Web pages
that use CSS here at home and then upload them to the net for
others to try, so working actively on CSS would be a waste of
effort. The class I took in "Web Design" taught me more CSS than I
have any use for all by myself.
> And what's this about not being able to get a job at McDonald's?
I went to the McDonald's on El Monte near El Camino, filled out
their job application, and the manager there told me he wouldn't
hire me because I have a college degree.
> Did you refuse to use their cash registers because they're "not
> VT100"?
Of course not. In the "restaurant" there's direct physical access
to the cash registers, no need to connect to them over the
InterNet.
> I guarantee you that you can get a job at McDonald's or a
> comparable store.
What good is your guarantee? I say it's worthless.
> if this is truly the case, then don't mention your diploma.
And, for the same reason, not mention that I ever did any work
programming computers either, right? So what do I do for the part
where I'm supposed to list previous employment?? Lie and say I
never had a job before?
> Learn C++ and Java, if that's what these jobs are looking for.
I already did. But I don't have several years experience with them,
and can't get such experience before I get my first job at them.
> If you are fluent in Common Lisp (as you claim), then they should
> be tremendously easy to pick up.
Yes, I got "A" in all my programming classes because they were easy.
> Most job advertisements will ask for several years of experience in
> various technologies; these describe the firm's *ideal* candidate.
So when they list "fluent" or "wizardry" or "2+ years" (in some
language/system) in the requirements, they'd be willing to hire
someone who only "took a class once", or "read a tutorial on the
Web but never actually tried using the system"? I might fudge a
little, like if they say one year but I have only a half year but
did really good that might be OK. But I doubt they'd be willing to
back down from their REQUIREMENTS as grossly as you claim.
> You say you haven't heard of Struts? So...go learn it?
I looked it up via Google this morning. It's a powerful framework
for enforcing MVC paradigm on J2EE software, basically a
straitjacket that makes it very difficult to deviate from pure MVC
style. It's a large support package, apparently size-comparable to
J2EE (the full thing with Ant and DeployTool, not just the TomCat
server alone), and it takes a long time even for experienced J2EE
developers to adapt their software to it. I'm pretty sure there's
no way I can get permission to install J2EE plus Struts on the
shell machine where I get my InterNet access from home.
> How do you expect to acquire the skills you need to get jobs if
> you simply accept that you don't know things?
There are a lot of different software things I already know.
There are a few software things I could learn if there was a need.
There are other software things where I have no access to anywhere
I could try them, so it's not feasible to learn them, so there's no
point in getting upset that I can't.
By the way, De Anza college, where I took the Java classes,
including the third/last one "Distributed computing with Java",
didn't have any J2EE, didn't even have the TomCat server. I had to
download the entire J2EE system onto my laptop and try to run it
there, but a couple hundred megabytes aren't enough memory to run
it efficiently, so it took horrendously long to do anything in
J2EE. Just starting up the server, without having any services
installed, made the whole machine run terribly slow. The instructor
eventually installed the TomCat server on the campus machine and
made it available to us, but wasn't allowed to install the full
J2EE. So except for installing a sample program on my laptop, which
took several hours as it thrashed virtual memory, I couldn't get
even minimal practical J2EE experience, and except for simple
JSP/Servlet applications which don't require J2EE I couldn't get
any distributed Java experience at all. But at least I have that
tad bit of actual J2EE and TomCat experience, compared to Struts
where I can't even try anything.
Anyway, among the many software things I already know (such as
Lisp, Java/JSP/Servlet, HTML+CGI), and the several where I've
verified that they are available to me so I *could* learn more if
there was any incentive (such as PHP, Perl), there ought to be some
employment available, but I haven't seen any lately.
In some cases, if I saw an ad for a job I would like to do and
where I'm partly qualified, I tried responding to the ad,
emphasizing the parts I already know how to do, ignoring all the
rest of the requirements. So far none of those applications have
resulted in getting an interview in recent years.
Of course if I ever see a job ad where I satisfy more than half the
requirements, I'll jump on it. I haven't seen an ad like that in an
awfully long time. About a year before I took my first Java class,
I saw a job ad whose only specific requirement was "must be able to
perform duties in Java". I would qualify for that job now, but of
course there's no way they would keep the job open all this time,
and I have't seen any more recent like that.
>>>>> "RM" == Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl com/uh3t
>>>>> <·······@Yahoo.Com> writes:
>> From: Charlton Wilbur <·······@chromatico.net>
RM> I didn't yet know any C++ or Java, both of which are required
RM> for modern programming jobs,
>> Really? I've never had a modern programming job involving
>> either.
RM> Well maybe you did some *other* kind of programming job from
RM> the kind of work I've done and am seeking. I do
RM> applications. Maybe you did embedded systems, where all you
RM> need is C plus ten years experience specifically at embedded
RM> systems. Before I guess any more, please tell me what kind of
RM> programming you've done (and gotten paid for) recently.
Web and application programming. Perl, some C (though not in the past
2 or 3 years), some Objective-C, some PHP, way too much ColdFusion.
RM> So anyway, my point is that of the last four job openings that
RM> have been referred to me (by finding my resume online), all
RM> four require at least one of C++ or Java, and 2 of them
RM> require *both*.
Oh, I get people sending me emails about job openings all the time.
They're almost always recruiters who have found my resume on a web
search. Most of them require C++ and Java too.
I usually wind up explaining geography to them (no, I'm *not* within a
convenient commuting distance of Boston or Route 128), and suggesting
how they might find employees that are a better fit (hint: my resume
doesn't have Java, C++, or Windows on it, so if those are a large part
of your requirements, I'm not your man).
This is not a sign that most jobs require C++ or Java; it's a sign
that most of the jobs that are being filled by recruiters who are
desperate or stupid enough to use scattershot email require C++ or
Java or both. This is hardly surprising.
>> I've intentionally kept learning either at the bottom of my
>> list of priorities, because the sorts of jobs that require C++
>> or Java tend not to be the sort of jobs I find interesting.
RM> "Beggars can't be choosers." You have an easy time finding
RM> jobs, so you can pick and choose which jobs you find most
RM> interesting, and reject all the rest. I don't have that
RM> luxury. I'm rather desperate for any job whatsoever. I'd even
RM> work at MacDonalds if they would hire me.
Hardly; I know what sort of jobs I don't do well at. There's a nearly
100% correlation between jobs involving Java and C++ and working
environments I want nothing to do with. Learning Java or C++ so that
I could work at a job that would drive me onto antidepressants within
six months is not a positive life move, not when there are so many
other things I could learn that would be a good deal more rewarding.
>> They're not chosen because they're powerful languages; they're
>> chosen because they're "industry standard" and a know-nothing
>> HR department can find a dozen buzzword-compliant candidates
>> with either on their resume.
RM> Well I have those buzzwords on my resume, but only becaues I
RM> had classes in each. Still I don't have the years of
RM> experience, nor the particular expertise, needed for the
RM> available jobs. (I haven't seen a regular Lisp job ad, where
RM> Lisp is the only knowledge or experience needed, in so long I
RM> can't remember ever seeing such a job ad.)
Job ads are not the way to find worthwhile jobs. They're advertised
only when professional networking fails or when the professional
network has succeeded but there's a legal requirement to advertise the
job. Recruiters are only slightly better, but I have yet to meet a
recruiter who wasn't lying through his teeth more than half of the
time.
In other words: you won't find a Lisp job advertised. The most likely
way you'll find one is by associating with people who work with Lisp,
and impressing them sufficiently that they'll say, "hey, we're looking
for another programmer, you interested?" Alternately, you can start
your own company and work in Lisp yourself -- that's the only
guaranteed way to have a Lisp job, although the income that goes with
it is not likewise guaranteed.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
·······@chromatico.net
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Many years ago (circa 1992) I got
> interviewed for a job doing Lisp programming inside AutoCAD, really
> trivial stuff I would have found easy, but the interviewer kept
> expressing the attitude that I'd probably find the work too boring,
> and I tried to indicate I'd be glad for the paying work, but he
> must have ignored everything I said because he didn't hire me.
Maybe the reason is that you are too busy with searching excues for all
kind of things (no HTML experience because of telnet access etc.). A
possible employer must fear that you do this in the job, too, instead of
the work for which you are hired.
--
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
>>>>> "FB" == Frank Buss <··@frank-buss.de> writes:
FB> Maybe the reason is that you are too busy with searching
FB> excues for all kind of things (no HTML experience because of
FB> telnet access etc.). A possible employer must fear that you do
FB> this in the job, too, instead of the work for which you are
FB> hired.
And "I didn't know FOO so I had to take a class in it" is also a huge
red flag -- especially when it's something as simple as HTML markup,
or something as essential (or at least perceived as essential) as Java
or C++.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
·······@chromatico.net
········@gmail.com wrote:
> Joe Marshall wrote:
> > Alex Mizrahi wrote:
> > >
> > > i have INFP char type,
> >
> > Is that a subtype of extended-char?
>
> lol
Strangely enough I'm an ENFJ. I'm sure that's not what I was last time
I checked.
I'm new to Lisp, but I've been a professional software engineer for 13
years. Perhaps I'm becoming a salesman too (/me ducks..)
-Chris
INTJ
Christopher Brown wrote:
> ········@gmail.com wrote:
> > Joe Marshall wrote:
> > > Alex Mizrahi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > i have INFP char type,
> > >
> > > Is that a subtype of extended-char?
> >
> > lol
>
> Strangely enough I'm an ENFJ. I'm sure that's not what I was last time
> I checked.
> I'm new to Lisp, but I've been a professional software engineer for 13
> years. Perhaps I'm becoming a salesman too (/me ducks..)
>
> -Chris
"Joe Marshall" <··········@gmail.com> wrote in message
·····························@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Alex Mizrahi wrote:
>>
>> i have INFP char type,
>
> Is that a subtype of extended-char?
>
The infinity predicate, silly you !
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/288dad71d9b02f3f/3567d31951dc1f06#3567d31951dc1f06
Sacha
(message (Hello 'Alex)
(you-wrote :to '(hyperstring.net ltd) :on "Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:16:21 +0200")
(body '(
hnl>> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
hnl>> in results?
AM> i have INFP char type, although i think i was INTP before (at some point
AM> i've rejected thinking in some aspects), so to preserve the pattern i can
AM> think i'm INTP when doing programming :).
It coludn't be true ;) I'm INFP too (by test). But as I guess test lies
to me and actually I'm ENTP. I came to this conclusion using following
algorithm (as "real" INFP should do ;) ):
1) read descriptions of all psycho types
2) divide them into three groups: a) hot b) warm c) cold
and it was:
a) ENTP, INFP
b) ENFP, INFJ
c) all others
3) read descriptions of ENTP, INFP, ENFP, INFJ more closely
4) conclude that INFP describes me by 50% and ENTP by 90%
5) and so I'm ENTP :)
6) also I dislike ESTP (dual of INFP), but ISFP (dual of ENTP) seems
pretty enough to me
7) finally I'd read descriptions of psycho functions (extraversion,
introversion, intuition, sensing, ...) and now I'm sure that
I'm ENTP.
I think test lies not just to me... Or maybe I'm (or most people)
schizophrenic from the point of view of socionics ;) Sometimes I'm INFP,
and sometimes ENTP. Or actually I'm ENTP, but was ill by INFP'ness ;)
--
))) => t
hyperstring.net ltd wrote:
> Anyway - last night myself and one of my staff (a trainee) did the
> Myers Briggs thing and we came out as very similar character types ENTP
> and ISTP, now being an ENTP I look for patterns in things! So you can
> imagine my excitement when there was a pattern!
For the uninformed what is a Myers Briggs thing?
Google gave this http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
Spent a few minutes there swiftly clicking radio buttons and got an
INTJ. These tests and other labels do not tend to bother me. If they
do, then I like to remind myself of how inspired I was of the story of
Gattaca http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ Destiny lies in what you
*want* to make of it. At least, I like to think so.
Alok
hyperstring.net ltd wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> In the near future we are going to have to make some Lisp programmers,
> why? Well because we can't hire them. There really are not any!
>
> Anyway - last night myself and one of my staff (a trainee) did the
> Myers Briggs thing and we came out as very similar character types ENTP
> and ISTP, now being an ENTP I look for patterns in things! So you can
> imagine my excitement when there was a pattern!
>
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
>
> Paul
> www.hyperstring.net
:)
Never tried this test before . It is kind of fun.
I've get INTJ
Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judging
Strength of the preferences %
11 50 50 22.
Routinely I did matlab/fortran programming and always keep apart my
abstractions(in head) and numerical algorithms(in code).I treat computer
as a big, fast programming calculator of my youth.
After exposing to Lisp I start to believe that I can actually
express myself to the computer and create a dialog by my rules,
in my terms.
Maybe it is just a matter of taste or preference, but what the pattern
should looks like among humans.
Regards, Dmitry
"hyperstring.net ltd" <············@hyperstring.net> writes:
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
ENTJ. The 'E' is probably why I spend as much time selling
software as writing it.
Regards,
Patrick
------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc. | Large scale, mission-critical, distributed OO
| systems design and implementation.
···@spe.com | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)
hyperstring.net ltd wrote:
>
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
>
According to the test I did two years ago, I'm an INTP. When I took the
test again a couple of months ago, it told me I'm now leaning slightly
more toward ISTP.
Richard
Ah, this topic is interesting and one I have spent some time considering.
I hope I have not read it too late as to contribute in a meaningful way.
I wish to apologize in advance for any type bias I have as it is almost
unavoidable.
I am an INTP and have dabbled in "type" for many years. I would have to
say I know more about type than I do about lisp. Anyhow, I would like to
know more -- always want to know more.
It seems likely that the majority of "hackers" are going to be T types
rather than F types, since the former are more concerned with making
decisions based upon logic rather than values. How does one program
without a solid understanding of logic?
I suppose that both E and I preferences could be found in the hackers
world although I would expect more introverts since introverted types like
to work primarily by themselves. Whereas, the E types like to work with
other people.
For anyone interested in type, I would highly recommend David Keirsey's
book, "Please Understand Me".
> Anyway - last night myself and one of my staff (a trainee) did the
> Myers Briggs thing and we came out as very similar character types ENTP
> and ISTP, now being an ENTP I look for patterns in things!
I would disagree that ENTPs and ISTPs are very similar. N types are
abstract and S types are concrete in communication. This in itself can
create some challenges. E types get there energy from the outer world of
people and things, whereas I types get there energy from the inner world
of thoughts and ideas. The ISTP is not looking for patterns; he is
looking for experiences.
Excepting the first paragraph do you thing the rest of us give are here
to discuss Myers Briggs?
hyperstring.net ltd wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> In the near future we are going to have to make some Lisp programmers,
> why? Well because we can't hire them. There really are not any!
>
> Anyway - last night myself and one of my staff (a trainee) did the
> Myers Briggs thing and we came out as very similar character types ENTP
> and ISTP, now being an ENTP I look for patterns in things! So you can
> imagine my excitement when there was a pattern!
>
> Have any others of you done Myers Briggs and was there any similarity
> in results?
>
> Paul
> www.hyperstring.net
"samantha" <········@gmail.com> writes:
> hyperstring.net ltd wrote:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> In the near future we are going to have to make some Lisp programmers,
>> why? Well because we can't hire them. There really are not any!
>
> Excepting the first paragraph do you thing the rest of us give are here
> to discuss Myers Briggs?
Yeah, really.
Bill Atkins wrote:
> "samantha" <········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>hyperstring.net ltd wrote:
>>
>>>Dear All,
>>>
>>>In the near future we are going to have to make some Lisp programmers,
>>>why? Well because we can't hire them. There really are not any!
>>
>>Excepting the first paragraph do you thing the rest of us give are here
>>to discuss Myers Briggs?
>
>
> Yeah, really.
I thought it was clearly marketing spam until it turned out half the
dorks here had joined the cult.
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon