From: Ken Tilton
Subject: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <9%a9g.703$KQ3.461@fe11.lga>
     (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)

I rest my case.

kenny

ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I need 
to use ASDF or tell someone how. k

pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k


-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
    Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
    minister husband, when asked if the couple had
    marital problems.

From: Jonathon McKitrick
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <1147486225.243372.196270@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Ken Tilton wrote:
> ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I need
> to use ASDF or tell someone how. k

I thought I was the only one when I installed araneida today.
From: Novus
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <2006051222043916807-novus@ngoqdeorg>
On 2006-05-12 21:54:13 -0400, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:

>      (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
> 
> I rest my case.
> 
> kenny
> 
> ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I need 
> to use ASDF or tell someone how. k
> 
> pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k

(require :cells) should work. When it doesn't you can write a one line
function to hook into require. When that doesn't work you can write your
own one line require.

Complaining about the syntax of something in Lisp seems a bit odd given
how easy it is to change ;)

Novus
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <pQc9g.104$yJ6.85@fe12.lga>
Novus wrote:

> Complaining about the syntax of something in Lisp seems a bit odd given
> how easy it is to change ;)

Oh, sure! Blame the victim! :)

Actually part of my fire comes from having had to work for like three 
years in a shop where the chief genius had decreed that there would be 
one function for all file I/O, with reads differentiated from writes by 
combining equally stupidly named bit masks.

There is a fine line between stupid and clever.
                                        -Spinal Tap

kenny

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
    Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
    minister husband, when asked if the couple had
    marital problems.
From: verec
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <446561bb$0$652$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
On 2006-05-13 04:59:17 +0100, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:

> Actually part of my fire comes from having had to work for like three 
> years in a shop where the chief genius had decreed that there would be 
> one function for all file I/O, with reads differentiated from writes by 
> combining equally stupidly named bit masks.

Sounds like the spec of ioctl to me ...

You might find lower level, but you probably would need to
go down to assembly :-)
--
JFB
From: Kaz Kylheku
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <1147804097.982436.244380@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
verec wrote:
> On 2006-05-13 04:59:17 +0100, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:
>
> > Actually part of my fire comes from having had to work for like three
> > years in a shop where the chief genius had decreed that there would be
> > one function for all file I/O, with reads differentiated from writes by
> > combining equally stupidly named bit masks.
>
> Sounds like the spec of ioctl to me ...

Yeah, except ioctl() has a good reason for being the way it is.
From: Tim X
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <87mzdmv34j.fsf@tiger.rapttech.com.au>
Novus <·····@ngoqde.org> writes:

> On 2006-05-12 21:54:13 -0400, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:
>
>>      (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
>> I rest my case.
>> kenny
>> ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I
>> need to use ASDF or tell someone how. k
>> pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k
>
> (require :cells) should work. When it doesn't you can write a one line
> function to hook into require. When that doesn't work you can write your
> own one line require.
>
> Complaining about the syntax of something in Lisp seems a bit odd given
> how easy it is to change ;)
>

The response to the quite common question of what to use other than
asdf which is more straight forward is often answered with "use
require". However, I thought require was depricated and therefore its
use should be avoided - am I missing something here?

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au
From: Klaus Weidner
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <nXaag.62326$E46.57958@fe09.news.easynews.com>
On 2006-05-13, Novus <·····@ngoqde.org> wrote:
> On 2006-05-12 21:54:13 -0400, Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> said:
>
>>      (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
>> 
>> I rest my case.
>> 
>> 
>> pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k
>
> (require :cells) should work. When it doesn't you can write a one line
> function to hook into require. When that doesn't work you can write your
> own one line require.

I agree that it *should* work, but it doesn't, for example not in CLISP. I'm
not aware of a portable way to hook into the system REQUIRE, and you can't
override it (portably) since REQUIRE is a CL defined symbol.

> Complaining about the syntax of something in Lisp seems a bit odd given
> how easy it is to change ;)

That's totally beside the point, since this is one of the very few operations
that you frequently need to type manually in environments where you can't
assume to have customized startup files available.

And it sticks out like a sore thumb in documentation addressed directly to
newcomers to the language. When I got started with CL it took me quite a while
until I could remember where the quote and colons were supposed to go.

Please, consider this a petition to add something short and easy to remember to
ASDF. My vote would be for (asdf:use :cells), but I'm open for any alternatives
without gratuitous special characters.

-Klaus
From: Thomas F. Burdick
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <xcvac9mcnf9.fsf@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

>      (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
> 
> I rest my case.
> 
> kenny
> 
> ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I need
> to use ASDF or tell someone how. k
> 
> pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k

Well yes, that's ugly, just like how:

  (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
    (setf *package* (find-package :cells)))

is ugly.  But you don't opt to use the lowest-level mechanism
available with packages, you use IN-PACKAGE.  So tell the user to use
SLIME and type ,load-system<RET>cells<RET>
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <r5k9g.288$Id.32@fe10.lga>
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>     (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
>>
>>I rest my case.
>>
>>kenny
>>
>>ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I need
>>to use ASDF or tell someone how. k
>>
>>pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k
> 
> 
> Well yes, that's ugly, just like how:
> 
>   (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
>     (setf *package* (find-package :cells)))
> 
> is ugly.  But you don't opt to use the lowest-level mechanism
> available with packages, you use IN-PACKAGE.  So tell the user to use
> SLIME and type ,load-system<RET>cells<RET>

Slime? Emacs? The poor guy only has one summer to do PyCells[1]. I told 
him to ask Lispworks if he could use the trial version. :)

kenny

[1] Should produce an improved test suite /and/ documentation for Cells, 
internal and API. k

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
    Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
    minister husband, when asked if the couple had
    marital problems.
From: Thomas F. Burdick
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <xcv1wuyc5gt.fsf@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> > Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >>     (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
> >>
> >>I rest my case.
> >>
> >>kenny
> >>
> >>ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I need
> >>to use ASDF or tell someone how. k
> >>
> >>pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k
> > Well yes, that's ugly, just like how:
> >   (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
> >     (setf *package* (find-package :cells)))
> > is ugly.  But you don't opt to use the lowest-level mechanism
> > available with packages, you use IN-PACKAGE.  So tell the user to use
> > SLIME and type ,load-system<RET>cells<RET>
> 
> Slime? Emacs? The poor guy only has one summer to do PyCells[1]. I
> told him to ask Lispworks if he could use the trial version. :)

I thought Python'ers [*] used Emacs.  They desperately need special
editor support, even more than Lispers, for that wacky syntax.  If
someone already knows Emacs, Slime is very easy to use and intuitive.
That's a big if, granted.
From: Thomas F. Burdick
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <xcvwtcqaquj.fsf@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:

> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> > > Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > >>     (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
> > >>
> > >>I rest my case.
> > >>
> > >>kenny
> > >>
> > >>ps. pissed off because I have to look for an example every time I need
> > >>to use ASDF or tell someone how. k
> > >>
> > >>pps. (asdf:load-project :cells)? Too simple? <sigh> k
> > > Well yes, that's ugly, just like how:
> > >   (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
> > >     (setf *package* (find-package :cells)))
> > > is ugly.  But you don't opt to use the lowest-level mechanism
> > > available with packages, you use IN-PACKAGE.  So tell the user to use
> > > SLIME and type ,load-system<RET>cells<RET>
> > 
> > Slime? Emacs? The poor guy only has one summer to do PyCells[1]. I
> > told him to ask Lispworks if he could use the trial version. :)
> 
> I thought Python'ers [*] used Emacs.  They desperately need special
> editor support, even more than Lispers, for that wacky syntax.  If
> someone already knows Emacs, Slime is very easy to use and intuitive.
> That's a big if, granted.

[*] What the hell do you call Python users?  "Python users"?
"Pythoners"?  I was thinking "Python suckers" worked nicely here...
From: Harald Hanche-Olsen
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <pcou07t7pjw.fsf@shuttle.math.ntnu.no>
+ ···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick):

|> I thought Python'ers [*] used Emacs.  They desperately need special
|> editor support, even more than Lispers, for that wacky syntax.

They have IDLE.  Wasn't too bad, I used it a bit back in my Python
days six or seven years ago.

| [*] What the hell do you call Python users?  "Python users"?
| "Pythoners"?  I was thinking "Python suckers" worked nicely here...

Pythonistas.

-- 
* Harald Hanche-Olsen     <URL:http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/>
- It is undesirable to believe a proposition
  when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing it is true.
  -- Bertrand Russell
From: justinhj
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <1147618691.780297.135670@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> [*] What the hell do you call Python users?  "Python users"?
> "Pythoners"?  I was thinking "Python suckers" worked nicely here...

Smug Python Weenies?
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <m31wuulljj.fsf@NOSPAMgmail.com>
···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
>
> I thought Python'ers [*] used Emacs.  They desperately need special
> editor support, even more than Lispers, for that wacky syntax.

I'm pretty sure that standard vi can be used pretty easily to do Python,
with proper auto-indent settings and so forth.  Not that _I'd_ use it (I
long ago converted over to emacs--I'm typing this therein), but...

-- 
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
12 is a semiperfect number.  A number is semiperfect if some subset of
the divisors less than it sum to it.  (12=1+2+3+6)
From: A.M. Kuchling
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <aKGdnTU1ZuKJtPfZRVn-tg@speakeasy.net>
On Mon, 15 May 2006 21:02:08 -0600, 
	Robert Uhl <·········@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that standard vi can be used pretty easily to do Python,
> with proper auto-indent settings and so forth.  Not that _I'd_ use it (I
> long ago converted over to emacs--I'm typing this therein), but...

Also see the Misc/Vim/ directory [*] in the Python source code, which
contains the setup for syntax highlighting and other goodies.

[*] http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Misc/Vim/

--amk
From: Pascal Bourguignon
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <87hd3u64dm.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:

>     (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)

What is this?  
Don't you type: (asdf-load :cells) ???






Put this in you startup files!

(defun asdf-load        (system) (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op        system))
(defun asdf-load-source (system) (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-source-op system))
(defun asdf-install     (system) (asdf-install:install              system))


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

CAUTION: The mass of this product contains the energy equivalent of
85 million tons of TNT per net ounce of weight.
From: Rob Warnock
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <ZpKdnaOJg_oY0fjZRVn-rw@speakeasy.net>
Pascal Bourguignon  <···@informatimago.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
| >     (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
| 
| What is this?  
| Don't you type: (asdf-load :cells) ???
...
| Put this in you startup files!
| (defun asdf-load (system) (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op system))
+---------------

I have a slightly more "featureful" version in my startup file:  ;-}  ;-}

(defun asdf (&rest systems)
  (if systems
    (dolist (system systems)
      (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op system))
    ;; ·@#$% CMUCL "library:local/systems/*.asd" lists everything *twice*!
    (let ((all-asd (directory "/usr/local/lib/cmucl/lib/local/systems/*.asd")))
      (format t "Available systems:~%~a~%"
                (sort (mapcar #'pathname-name all-asd) #'string<)))))


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <fTc9g.105$yJ6.72@fe12.lga>
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>    (ASDF:OOS 'ASDF:LOAD-OP :CELLS)
> 
> 
> What is this?  
> Don't you type: (asdf-load :cells) ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put this in you startup files!
> 
> (defun asdf-load        (system) (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op        system))
> (defun asdf-load-source (system) (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-source-op system))
> (defun asdf-install     (system) (asdf-install:install              system))
> 
> 

Right, and then send that to the guy I am co-mentoring on PyCells. 
Wait.. why do I have to send code to some who wants to use ASDF? Oh! 
Because it /sucks/, now I remember.

:)

kenny


-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
    Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
    minister husband, when asked if the couple had
    marital problems.
From: Ivan Shvedunov
Subject: Re: The worst syntax ever....
Date: 
Message-ID: <87k68qx8dw.fsf@depni.sinp.msu.ru>
I tend to use the same names for my packages and systems, so the
following helps me a bit:

(defmacro asdf (name)
  `(progn
     (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ',name)
     (in-package ,name)))

This way I just type (asdf something) when I start my REPL session.