From: Foolish Fellows Assotiation
Subject: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <e82qnk$f90$1@news.onet.pl>
Hello

Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?

From: goose
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <1151679351.408284.296930@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>
Foolish Fellows Assotiation wrote:
> Hello
>
> Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?

Wouldn't the actors have a hard time reading a script
in lisp?

goose,
   I kid, I kid :-)
From: Roberto Waltman
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <ruiaa21f9cf43i2pd14ocsfmgt5drueml5@4ax.com>
Foolish Fellows Assotiation wrote:
>Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?

And what language do you think it was written in? :)
From: Stefan Mandl
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <4glrkaF1nbr37U1@news.dfncis.de>
> And what language do you think it was written in? :)

 From how .. hmm great .. our perceivable world is, how everything is 
governed by stupid physical and social laws set in stone (no being 
invisible when needed, no debugging reality, ...) I would say .. COBOL.
From: ··············@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <1151761151.441154.128200@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
Roberto Waltman wrote:
> Foolish Fellows Assotiation wrote:
> >Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?
>
> And what language do you think it was written in? :)

Come on ... too easy ... the matrix was written in machine language ...


--jw.
From: ········@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <1151772061.759188.33390@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
> Roberto Waltman wrote:
> > Foolish Fellows Assotiation wrote:
> > >Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?
> > And what language do you think it was written in? :)
> Come on ... too easy ... the matrix was written in machine language ...

MatLab

(Jeeeeez. Can't you guys see a sucker pun coming until it hits you in
the face?! :-)
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <0T395iq6IvhNv8%stesch@parsec.no-spoon.de>
Foolish Fellows Assotiation <······@poczta,onet.pl> wrote:
> Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?

Only implementations with full Unicode support. :-)
From: Aatu Koskensilta
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <l27pg.11723$mt4.1430@reader1.news.jippii.net>
Foolish Fellows Assotiation wrote:
> Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?

Unfortunately the movie industry has made very little real progress in 
adopting formal methods, and movie scripts are often written in vaguely 
specified and ambiguous languages, instead of a formalized language with 
a mathematically defined semantics as would be optimal. There are also 
spurious complaints about dialogue being difficult for humans to 
understand if presented in prefix notation. Hopefully in a few decades 
we will begin to see more and more movies based on a sound mathematical 
and theoretical foundation.

-- 
Aatu Koskensilta (················@xortec.fi)

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
  - Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
From: Jonathan Heusser
Subject: [OT] Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <54ac5$44a50693$50db56aa$14604@news.hispeed.ch>
Aatu Koskensilta wrote:
> Foolish Fellows Assotiation wrote:
>> Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?
> 
> Unfortunately the movie industry has made very little real progress in
> adopting formal methods, and movie scripts are often written in vaguely
> specified and ambiguous languages, instead of a formalized language with
> a mathematically defined semantics as would be optimal. There are also
> spurious complaints about dialogue being difficult for humans to
> understand if presented in prefix notation. Hopefully in a few decades
> we will begin to see more and more movies based on a sound mathematical
> and theoretical foundation.
> 

http://www.hollywoodmath.com/
From: Pascal Bourguignon
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <87veqiya1w.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Aatu Koskensilta <················@xortec.fi> writes:

> Foolish Fellows Assotiation wrote:
>> Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?
>
> Unfortunately the movie industry has made very little real progress in
> adopting formal methods, and movie scripts are often written in
> vaguely specified and ambiguous languages, instead of a formalized
> language with a mathematically defined semantics as would be
> optimal. There are also spurious complaints about dialogue being
> difficult for humans to understand if presented in prefix
> notation. Hopefully in a few decades we will begin to see more and
> more movies based on a sound mathematical and theoretical foundation.

You can't complain, there are a number of movies that are quite
formally specified:

         Toy Story
         The Incredible
         Finding nemo
         Monsters Inc
         For the Birds
         Cars
         etc.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the
consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to
exist or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.
From: Aatu Koskensilta
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <Fhbpg.11909$Px6.4086@reader1.news.jippii.net>
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> You can't complain, there are a number of movies that are quite
> formally specified:
> 
>          Toy Story
>          The Incredible
>          Finding nemo
>          Monsters Inc
>          For the Birds
>          Cars
>          etc.

Unfortunately the scripts of these movies were probably written in a 
language with no formally specified semantics. This makes correctness 
proofs virtually impossible, for example, even though mathematically 
sound methods were used at some point of the implementation process. I 
wonder if the Lisp society has tried to address this shortcoming, or 
whether some statically typed language would be better suited for 
writing movie scripts.

-- 
Aatu Koskensilta (················@xortec.fi)

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
  - Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
From: Thomas A. Russ
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <ymi3bdm4gx7.fsf@sevak.isi.edu>
Aatu Koskensilta <················@xortec.fi> writes:

> whether some statically typed language would be better suited for
> writing movie scripts.

ROTFL

-- 
Thomas A. Russ,  USC/Information Sciences Institute
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <0ifpg.37$Dk.0@fe10.lga>
Thomas A. Russ wrote:
> Aatu Koskensilta <················@xortec.fi> writes:
> 
> 
>>whether some statically typed language would be better suited for
>>writing movie scripts.
> 
> 
> ROTFL
> 

What are you laughing at?! Trinity's static deathbed speech reminded me 
strongly of a programmer typing Java.

kt

-- 
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
From: Cameron MacKinnon
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <44a5c5f5$0$15793$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Aatu Koskensilta wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> 
>> You can't complain, there are a number of movies that are quite
>> formally specified:
>>
>>          Toy Story
>>          The Incredible
>>          Finding nemo
>>          Monsters Inc
>>          For the Birds
>>          Cars
>>          etc.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately the scripts of these movies were probably written in a 
> language with no formally specified semantics. This makes correctness 
> proofs virtually impossible, for example, even though mathematically 
> sound methods were used at some point of the implementation process. I 
> wonder if the Lisp society has tried to address this shortcoming, or 
> whether some statically typed language would be better suited for 
> writing movie scripts.
> 

Well, the dialog within the scripts may or may not have formal 
semantics, depending on how much you believe in Chomsky's theories. The 
semantics of the scripts themselves, however, are about as rigid as you 
can get without resorting to all those squiggly greek characters. 
Scripts that don't conform to the industry's formatting rules have no 
chance of getting read, much less produced.

Lispers interested in formal semantics? Sure -- they're called 
'Schemers'. Common Lisp's semantics are informally specified and 
buggy[1], and nobody's too interested in fixing them. Heck, even 
Schemers disagree as to how formally Scheme is specified[2]


1. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/3a8bcfef0500c8f9
2. http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-75/mail-archive/msg00143.html
From: Stefan Mandl
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <4glvunF1mtmimU2@news.dfncis.de>
> [..] The
> semantics of the scripts themselves, however, are about as rigid as you 
> can get without resorting to all those squiggly greek characters.

Here you speak of semantics.

> Scripts that don't conform to the industry's formatting rules have no 
> chance of getting read, much less produced.

Here you speak of syntax.

;)

regards,
Stefan
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <4glfkrF1o19ngU1@individual.net>
Aatu Koskensilta wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> You can't complain, there are a number of movies that are quite
>> formally specified:
>>
>>          Toy Story
>>          The Incredible
>>          Finding nemo
>>          Monsters Inc
>>          For the Birds
>>          Cars
>>          etc.
> 
> Unfortunately the scripts of these movies were probably written in a 
> language with no formally specified semantics. This makes correctness 
> proofs virtually impossible, for example, even though mathematically 
> sound methods were used at some point of the implementation process. I 
> wonder if the Lisp society has tried to address this shortcoming, or 
> whether some statically typed language would be better suited for 
> writing movie scripts.

Movies are always static - once they're finished, they will never be 
changed again.

A good analogy for a dynamically typed approach is a theater play. There 
actors and audience can interact, and in some cases of improvisational 
theater even dramatically change the play on the fly. Of course, you 
don't get the same guarantees that everyone will see the same play.


Pascal

-- 
3rd European Lisp Workshop
July 3 - Nantes, France - co-located with ECOOP 2006
http://lisp-ecoop06.bknr.net/
From: Rob Warnock
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <7_SdnQTdNs78bDjZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Pascal Costanza  <··@p-cos.net> wrote:
+---------------
| Movies are always static - once they're finished, they will never be 
| changed again.
+---------------

Uh... Can you say "Director's Cut"?


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <4gms4fF19o5bmU1@individual.net>
Rob Warnock wrote:
> Pascal Costanza  <··@p-cos.net> wrote:
> +---------------
> | Movies are always static - once they're finished, they will never be 
> | changed again.
> +---------------
> 
> Uh... Can you say "Director's Cut"?

Yes: "Refactoring". ;)


Pascal

-- 
3rd European Lisp Workshop
July 3 - Nantes, France - co-located with ECOOP 2006
http://lisp-ecoop06.bknr.net/
From: Darren New
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <N3ipg.5208$MF6.1372@tornado.socal.rr.com>
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Movies are always static - once they're finished, they will never be 
> changed again.

Han shot first!!

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     Native Americans used every part
     of the buffalo, including the wings.
From: Martin Bishop
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <87irmgojum.fsf@bellsouth.net>
Movies are static? Tell that to George Lucas :)
From: Stefan Mandl
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <4glo4uF1njk71U1@news.dfncis.de>
> Unfortunately the scripts of these movies were probably written in a 
> language with no formally specified semantics. This makes correctness 
> proofs virtually impossible, for example, even though mathematically 
> sound methods were used at some point of the implementation process. I 
> wonder if the Lisp society has tried to address this shortcoming, or 
> whether some statically typed language would be better suited for 
> writing movie scripts.

In last winter semester, the exercise lessons for students taking the AI 
course at our university centered around implementing a rudimentary 
story telling assistant, actually a little planning system that 
generated *correct* stories that satisfied certain constraints like the 
initial situation, landmarks during the story and of course a happy end.

This thing was motivated by the fact that I'm usually (not always to the 
  joy of my mates) a very critical observer of movies and always tend to 
complain about inconsistencies in the stories, like:

   When you set free a horse and encounter it later in the wildness,
   it's very strange that it still is wearing a headstall.
   (As seen in The Lord of the Rings).

BTW we used Prolog, but hey, in some respects that's quite close to 
Lisp. (have I set loose the dark riders now?)

The whole thing was never meant as a serious project but kept students 
motivated (at least most), provided reason why to implement a certain 
routine, hence no more complaining: "ok, that's nice, but for what do we 
need that?" And was a lot of fun to do.

Actually, I think it's a very interesting project to create a program 
that given some hints on the storyboard creates a complete consistent 
story and (ok, I'm reaching for the stars now) actually does the 
rendering as well, but I guess that's more evenings spent hacking than 
there is in a lifetime.

regards,

Stefan
From: Shyamal Prasad
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <87k66y3b3t.fsf@turtle.local>
>>>>> "Foolish" == Foolish Fellows Assotiation <······@poczta,onet.pl> writes:

    Foolish> Hello Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?

Yes. I'm not thure it would thound great though...
From: lin8080
Subject: Re: What language could be written "Matrix"
Date: 
Message-ID: <44BE2B5C.757E9794@freenet.de>
Foolish Fellows Assotiation schrieb:

> Hello

> Do you think the matrix could be written in lisp?

Definitely no.

Agent Smith: The first version was a disaster...
(I guess, this was the Java version)

Now, go down to Zions Archive and dig around there. You will find:
...the machines began to construct themselves to better versions...
(or something like this)

Interpret this to a AI (or KI in .de) -System. Does this mean, an
existing system is able to construct its own syntax and so speak an
completely different language, no human ever can think of? 

Well, to get the correct answer, I mean, ask HAL. I'm sure, he is able
to laugh...

Last, what can you do, to make a system able to improve the used syntax?

stefan

but the machine language-answer is perfect, who else understand this
numbers better than a machine.