While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
with the following curious statement on it.
"reddit broke (sorry)"
"looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
See screenshot at
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
appears to be 3 times slower ...
Alok
Alok wrote:
> While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
> with the following curious statement on it.
>
> "reddit broke (sorry)"
> "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
>
> See screenshot at
> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
>
> Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
> appears to be 3 times slower ...
>
> Alok
I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
development is a little bit ridiculous...
Luis M. González wrote:
> Alok wrote:
> > While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
> > with the following curious statement on it.
> >
> > "reddit broke (sorry)"
> > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
> >
> > See screenshot at
> > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
> >
> > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
> > appears to be 3 times slower ...
> >
> > Alok
>
>
> I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
> development is a little bit ridiculous...
I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
about theirs. Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.
And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
Alok wrote:
> I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
> about theirs.
That's exactly what I'm doing.
> Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.
I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
> And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
Ok.
From: Tin Gherdanarra
Subject: Re: Reddit broke - should have remained on Lisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <4gjaphF1nnoc6U2@individual.net>
Luis M. Gonz�lez wrote:
> Alok wrote:
>
>>I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
>>about theirs.
>
>
> That's exactly what I'm doing.
>
>
>>Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.
>
>
> I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
> Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
>
>
>>And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
>
>
> Ok.
>
C'mon guys! That "looks like..." thingy is an genre JOKE on
the reddit-jokers' own expense, right? Knock it OFF!
--
Lisp kann nicht kratzen, denn Lisp ist fluessig
Luis M. González wrote:
> Alok wrote:
> > I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
> > about theirs.
>
> That's exactly what I'm doing.
You misinterpret, I was talking about my experience with the site and
inviting response from other people about their experience with the
site. Now, I don't know much about python or lisp, but I have read
about this web-site's history with the two programming languages. And
hence I chose to post in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.python.
Now if there were a reddit.technology.lisp or
reddit.technology.python, and if they had the same traction as these
usenet groups, then I could have posted there. But that was not an
option was it.
>
> > Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.
>
> I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
Can you please explain what your interpretation is?
> Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
>
Now, I think you are unfairly prejudiced about my not wanting to read
other people's opinion. I would rather have a 1000 acrid responses to
something I write and learn from it, than post into a responseless
vacuum.
> > And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
>
> Ok.
Alok wrote:
> Luis M. González wrote:
> > Alok wrote:
> > > I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
> > > about theirs.
> >
> > That's exactly what I'm doing.
>
> You misinterpret, I was talking about my experience with the site and
> inviting response from other people about their experience with the
> site. Now, I don't know much about python or lisp, but I have read
> about this web-site's history with the two programming languages. And
> hence I chose to post in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.python.
>
> Now if there were a reddit.technology.lisp or
> reddit.technology.python, and if they had the same traction as these
> usenet groups, then I could have posted there. But that was not an
> option was it.
>
> >
> > > Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.
> >
> > I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
>
> Can you please explain what your interpretation is?
>
> > Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
> >
>
> Now, I think you are unfairly prejudiced about my not wanting to read
> other people's opinion. I would rather have a 1000 acrid responses to
> something I write and learn from it, than post into a responseless
> vacuum.
>
> > > And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
> >
> > Ok.
Dear Alok,
I think is you who are misinterpreting me (or I didn't make myself
clear).
You posted a link to a joke from reddit, which is perfectly fine, is
very funny.
But below, you added a comment wondering whether the change from Lisp
to Python may be a reason for a huge performance loss.
I'm not a python bigot, but I just said that blamming a language choice
for such a deficieny was ridiculous. There are hundreds of very complex
web sites developed in python that doesn't suffer these problems, and,
even if they are developed in python, you must take into account which
other technologies they are using for deployment (web server,
framework, mod_python, cgi, fastcgi, hardware, etc, etc...).
Also, the fact that someone could be more versed or knowledgeable of
one language compared to another one, doesn't make it better or worse.
This is s subjective fact, and has nothing to do with the language. It
has to do with who's using the language.
Also, as someone pointed out above, don't you think that the huge
incresement of traffic since they switched to python may have had
something to do with this problem?
Perhaps, their lack of experise in a new language didn't prepare them
for facing such a challenge. Who knows? Yeah, perhaps if they sticked
to Lisp, they could have handled the problem better. They are lispers,
aren't they?
Anyway, you posted a comment, you asked for opinons, you got mine.
Sorry if I ofended you. It wasn't my intention.
I'll make sure I place more smileys in my posts to avoid hurting
feelings from now on :-)
Luis
Luis M. González wrote:
Luis,
Thank you very much for you detailed and careful response. I very
much appreciate your comments.
> Alok wrote:
> > Luis M. González wrote:
> > > Alok wrote:
> > > > I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
> > > > about theirs.
> > >
> > > That's exactly what I'm doing.
> >
> > You misinterpret, I was talking about my experience with the site and
> > inviting response from other people about their experience with the
> > site. Now, I don't know much about python or lisp, but I have read
> > about this web-site's history with the two programming languages. And
> > hence I chose to post in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.python.
> >
> > Now if there were a reddit.technology.lisp or
> > reddit.technology.python, and if they had the same traction as these
> > usenet groups, then I could have posted there. But that was not an
> > option was it.
> >
> > >
> > > > Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.
> > >
> > > I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
> >
> > Can you please explain what your interpretation is?
> >
> > > Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
> > >
> >
> > Now, I think you are unfairly prejudiced about my not wanting to read
> > other people's opinion. I would rather have a 1000 acrid responses to
> > something I write and learn from it, than post into a responseless
> > vacuum.
> >
> > > > And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
> > >
> > > Ok.
>
> Dear Alok,
>
> I think is you who are misinterpreting me (or I didn't make myself
> clear).
> You posted a link to a joke from reddit, which is perfectly fine, is
> very funny.
> But below, you added a comment wondering whether the change from Lisp
> to Python may be a reason for a huge performance loss.
I did not intend to comment on Python or Lisp but yes, I have aired my
subjective observations about the site and in the context of the
technologies used. And I hoped that other users may respond with
comments if they have experienced any similar issues using the site.
If I have implied an indication that the change from Lisp to Python was
the reason that the site became 3 times slower, then I have slipped in
unintended innuendos. And I must accept that I have to be more careful
about it.
>
> I'm not a python bigot, but I just said that blamming a language choice
> for such a deficieny was ridiculous. There are hundreds of very complex
> web sites developed in python that doesn't suffer these problems, and,
> even if they are developed in python, you must take into account which
> other technologies they are using for deployment (web server,
> framework, mod_python, cgi, fastcgi, hardware, etc, etc...).
> Also, the fact that someone could be more versed or knowledgeable of
> one language compared to another one, doesn't make it better or worse.
> This is s subjective fact, and has nothing to do with the language. It
> has to do with who's using the language.
>
> Also, as someone pointed out above, don't you think that the huge
> incresement of traffic since they switched to python may have had
> something to do with this problem?
> Perhaps, their lack of experise in a new language didn't prepare them
> for facing such a challenge. Who knows? Yeah, perhaps if they sticked
> to Lisp, they could have handled the problem better. They are lispers,
> aren't they?
>
> Anyway, you posted a comment, you asked for opinons, you got mine.
> Sorry if I ofended you. It wasn't my intention.
There is no offense taken or hurt feelings. But yes, detailed responses
(and smileys) do make conversations more rewarding.
> I'll make sure I place more smileys in my posts to avoid hurting
> feelings from now on :-)
>
> Luis
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Reddit broke - should have remained on Lisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <Mz%og.731$Xd5.193@fe08.lga>
Luis M. Gonz�lez wrote:
> Alok wrote:
>
>>While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
>>with the following curious statement on it.
>>
>>"reddit broke (sorry)"
>>"looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
>>
>>See screenshot at
>>http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
>>
>>Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
>>appears to be 3 times slower ...
>>
>>Alok
>
>
>
> I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
> development is a little bit ridiculous...
>
Well, Reddit said it, not us, and they were probably joking, but it may
well be that the bug would not have happened if they were using Lisp.
Could an infinite number of engineers doing code reviews eventually
found the bug before the end of the universe? The reality is that every
project has finite resources, all the better reason not to stress the
team with the wrong language.
kenny (making Rahul happy by being f'ed by OpenGL bugs)
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
"Luis M. González" <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> Alok wrote:
>> While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
>> with the following curious statement on it.
>>
>> "reddit broke (sorry)"
>> "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
>>
>> See screenshot at
>> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
>>
>> Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
>> appears to be 3 times slower ...
>>
>> Alok
>
>
> I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
> development is a little bit ridiculous...
>
Although I'd like to agree with you and the principal is sound,
unfortunately it does not always hold in the real world. In the years
I've been programming, there have certainly been situations in which a
poorly implemented or poorly designed language has made developing
reliable software near impossible.
Admittedly this is not as common as it was in the 80s when you had
lots of companies developing their own "better" languages for certain
domains and there were a lot of 4GLs promising the world, it is still
possible to have a situation in which a development fails because of a
poorly chosen language.
Actually, I've just remember the introduction to PCL where Peter talks
about his fathers experience with lisp in the 80s. In this example,
choosing lisp saved a development project which was looking very much
like it was going to be a complete failure. If do something like
selecting a different language saves a development project, isn't it
also reasonable to suggest that the converse could be true and that
selecting the wrong language could have a negative impact on
development?
Tim
--
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au
On 2006-06-30, Luis M. Gonz�lez <·······@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alok wrote:
>> While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error
>> page with the following curious statement on it.
>>
>> "reddit broke (sorry)"
>> "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
>>
>> See screenshot at
>> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
>>
>> Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
>> appears to be 3 times slower ...
>
> I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a
> poor development is a little bit ridiculous...
You've obviously never used Taskmate. Ick.
;)
-- L
Alok wrote:
> "reddit broke (sorry)"
> "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
>
> See screenshot at
> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
>
> Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
> appears to be 3 times slower ...
Hi Alok,
Supposedly, the Reddit team had a bit of remorse (though of course, we
should take the following writeup with a grain of salt; maybe there are
more in-depth sources online):
"If we could do it all over again, we'd still be using Lisp. Probably."
"Reddit: Stick with Lisp. If you want it done right, do it yourself-
hosting- Avoid A+.net"
http://notelab.infogami.com/startupschool2006
The Reddit owners offered to write up their Lisp experiences. Did they?
If not, then of course we have no real ability to verify their claims.
(Particularly given that companies are far too secretive to let us
actually go there and evaulate their claims for ourselves.) The problem
was illustrated by Dvorak's admission that he skillfully antagonized
the Apple world to drive traffic; I don't know how much Reddit was
helped by this little soap opera, if at all, but these are problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAWDYaWAVQQ
Tayssir
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> Alok wrote:
> > "reddit broke (sorry)"
> > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
> >
> > See screenshot at
> > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
> >
> > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
> > appears to be 3 times slower ...
>
> Hi Alok,
>
> Supposedly, the Reddit team had a bit of remorse (though of course, we
> should take the following writeup with a grain of salt; maybe there are
> more in-depth sources online):
> "If we could do it all over again, we'd still be using Lisp. Probably."
> "Reddit: Stick with Lisp. If you want it done right, do it yourself-
> hosting- Avoid A+.net"
> http://notelab.infogami.com/startupschool2006
Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
Python in the first place?
Kay Schluehr wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> > Supposedly, the Reddit team had a bit of remorse (though of course, we
> > should take the following writeup with a grain of salt; maybe there are
> > more in-depth sources online):
> > "If we could do it all over again, we'd still be using Lisp. Probably."
> > "Reddit: Stick with Lisp. If you want it done right, do it yourself-
> > hosting- Avoid A+.net"
> > http://notelab.infogami.com/startupschool2006
>
> Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
> background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
> themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
> about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
> Python in the first place?
Hi Kay,
The claim was that their Lisp implementation, CMUCL, had threading
problems which regularly crashed their site.
http://lemonodor.com/archives/001301.html
Also, they had concerns about the user community's size (at least the
one surrounding the free Common Lisp implementations).
http://xach.livejournal.com/66285.html
All right, serious criticism of Lisp is a joy to read, as we're a
technical audience... but how serious was this criticism? Apparently
the original big announcement of their switch was deleted from the blog
(at least the links are dead and I can't find it in a few secs of
googling), but I remember they promised to write up their experiences
with Lisp to help others if enough people asked. I was among those who
encouraged them to do this, but I haven't heard a word more about this
writeup.
This would've made their claims easier to verify. As it stands, I don't
know if they just had weird glitches with shoddy hardware from their
service provider, or whether they seriously reached out to the
community so it could help them. And they didn't even offer newbies the
benefit of a helpful, critical writeup. (If it is indeed true they
didn't follow up on the writeup.)
For that matter, a nasty side-effect is it prompts some to heavily
criticize Python in the same loose manner, out of a defensive feeling.
Tayssir
Kay Schluehr wrote:
>
> Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
> background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
> themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
> about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
> Python in the first place?
Basically, it was the same complaint everyone else has about common
lisp. It's an awesome language, but there are no reliable standard
crossplatform (and free) libraries for threading and sockets. They
were using FreeBSD as a server, and (trying to) use powerbooks as a dev
platform, and that seriously restricted viable CL implemenations.
http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/night-of-living-python.html
http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/on-lisp.html
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: Reddit broke - should have remained on Lisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <4gl7amF1ntjp8U1@individual.net>
·······@verizon.net wrote:
> Kay Schluehr wrote:
>> Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
>> background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
>> themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
>> about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
>> Python in the first place?
>
> Basically, it was the same complaint everyone else has about common
> lisp. It's an awesome language, but there are no reliable standard
> crossplatform (and free) libraries for threading and sockets. They
> were using FreeBSD as a server, and (trying to) use powerbooks as a dev
> platform, and that seriously restricted viable CL implemenations.
>
> http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/night-of-living-python.html
> http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/on-lisp.html
Compare this to that report:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/33fec2394f38546b
Pascal
--
3rd European Lisp Workshop
July 3 - Nantes, France - co-located with ECOOP 2006
http://lisp-ecoop06.bknr.net/