What would be some good reasons to fork over hard earned cash for
Allegro on Mac OSX rather than sticking with SBCL? I'm mostly doing
web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> What would be some good reasons to fork over hard earned cash for
> Allegro on Mac OSX rather than sticking with SBCL? I'm mostly doing
> web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
>
Have you ruled out Lispworks? Less than ACL and you get an IDE. Is
OpenMCL not in the running?
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Allegro Cache is very handy for webapp. It's much much easier to use
than SQL backend.
Using a dynamic language like lisp, your code and data evolve over
time.
If you need to map your data to a sql database schema, you'll find that
it's really pain in the rear whenever your defclass or your DSL
changes. (You will have to update your schema and sometimes it's not
straight forward to map it to a database).
I think this might be one of the reasons why pg claimed that he didn't
use database for viaweb (he used flat files, but if he needs to do it
again I'd suggest cl-store :-).
Too bad free run time for allegro is only available for MacOSX.
In article <················@fe09.lga>,
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> > What would be some good reasons to fork over hard earned cash for
> > Allegro on Mac OSX rather than sticking with SBCL? I'm mostly doing
> > web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
> >
>
> Have you ruled out Lispworks? Less than ACL and you get an IDE. Is
> OpenMCL not in the running?
Or regular MCL? It's very reasonably priced for what you get.
rg
> > Have you ruled out Lispworks? Less than ACL and you get an IDE. Is
> > OpenMCL not in the running?
>
> Or regular MCL? It's very reasonably priced for what you get.
Since I'm new to Mac, it looks like I have more investigating to do. I
was only thinking of Allegro and LW. And frankly, maybe SBCL does all
I need. I'll have to do some more homework, it looks like.
> > Have you ruled out Lispworks? Less than ACL and you get an IDE. Is
> > OpenMCL not in the running?
>
> Or regular MCL? It's very reasonably priced for what you get.
Since I'm new to Mac, it looks like I have more investigating to do. I
was only thinking of Allegro and LW. And frankly, maybe SBCL does all
I need. I'll have to do some more homework, it looks like.
Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> What would be some good reasons to fork over hard earned cash for
> Allegro on Mac OSX rather than sticking with SBCL? I'm mostly doing
> web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
Aquamacs + SBCL + SLIME is working pretty good and cost nothing.
javuchi wrote:
> Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> > What would be some good reasons to fork over hard earned cash for
> > Allegro on Mac OSX rather than sticking with SBCL? I'm mostly doing
> > web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
>
> Aquamacs + SBCL + SLIME is working pretty good and cost nothing.
How difficult is it to get develop GUI apps this way?
Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> javuchi wrote:
>
>>Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
>>
>>>What would be some good reasons to fork over hard earned cash for
>>>Allegro on Mac OSX rather than sticking with SBCL? I'm mostly doing
>>>web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
>>
>>Aquamacs + SBCL + SLIME is working pretty good and cost nothing.
>
>
> How difficult is it to get develop GUI apps this way?
>
It should not matter since you should be using Celtk or Cells-Gtk anyway.
btw, check on the cells-devel list or Frank might chime in here: I
believe he is using Celtk OK on the OS X/Allegro platform. He might have
looked at alternatives. And I am almost certain they would not include
anything from Franz. Lispworks's CAPI runs everywhere, but not so ACL
Common Graphics.
Why /Franz/ has not ported Common Graphics and their IDE to Celtk or
Cells-Gtk only they can tell you. :)
kenny
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> It should not matter since you should be using Celtk or Cells-Gtk anyway.
Wow, you are pretty confident it's the end-all-and-be-all of GUI
development, eh?
Wasn't it not ready for production until just recently?
Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>It should not matter since you should be using Celtk or Cells-Gtk anyway.
>
>
> Wow, you are pretty confident it's the end-all-and-be-all of GUI
> development, eh?
Yes. Case closed. Consider:
-- based on Tcl/Tk, a C library. Supported on all platforms. If you want
a warm fuzzy, you can even buy a seat from ActiveState and have a vendor
behind it. Might be a frill.
-- the GUI is native where it runs. OK, that might be a lie. I thought
it was native. But I see a newly-official Tile project is /really/
native. So I guess base Tcl is not <g>. I don't know, that is not a huge
concern to me. Anyway, you do get Aqua on OS X, which I think still has
not been achieved for Gtk.
-- Now hold on to your hat. Tcl/Tk also brings with it portable threads
and tcp/ip sockets and file services.
-- Did I say I was done? You also get all the many libraries available
for Tcl/Tk. I flipped when I found Snack. I had been looking for
real-time audio for ages, and there it was.
-- Am I leaving anything out? Oh. Maybe not a big deal for everyone, but
my Cello experience left me with an undying passion for OpenGL. So Cello
is back (with FTGL and GraphicsMagick and OpenAL) but sitting now atop
Tcl/Tk instead of Freeglut.
-- Damn, I know I am forg... ah! Cells. You can get all the above with
Peter Herth's LTk, but not integration with Cells. And who does not love
Cells?
>
> Wasn't it not ready for production until just recently?
>
Oh. That. :) Yeah, couple weeks ago.
kenny
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
How good is Cells-Gtk? Tk is great for some kinds of apps, but there
are a lot of things it seems not to be able to do at all --- how do I
put rotated text on a canvas, for instance?
rif
rif wrote:
> How good is Cells-Gtk?
I will duck that and refer you to the cells-gtk mailing list you can
track down on common-lisp.net.
> Tk is great for some kinds of apps, but there
> are a lot of things it seems not to be able to do at all --- how do I
> put rotated text on a canvas, for instance?
The Canvas widget is Tk's way of saying "We hit the wall.". Tk is
designed to provide the basics, and do so very well.
You want Cello, my extension to Celtk for those like Brian who just
cannot have enough libraries at their disposal. We use the tk Togl
widget to get an OpenGL widget, then FTGL to do anything you want with
text: polygon, outline, bitmap, pixmap, extruded 3d polygon, and
textured fonts.
kenny
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> You want Cello, my extension to Celtk for those like Brian who just
> cannot have enough libraries at their disposal. We use the tk Togl
> widget to get an OpenGL widget, then FTGL to do anything you want with
> text: polygon, outline, bitmap, pixmap, extruded 3d polygon, and
> textured fonts.
Screenshots! Must have screenshots!
I tried the ftp link on the project page, but it doesn't work.
Cells-gtk shows some cool stuff, but I want to see the tk base with
OpenGL running inside.
Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>You want Cello, my extension to Celtk for those like Brian who just
>>cannot have enough libraries at their disposal. We use the tk Togl
>>widget to get an OpenGL widget, then FTGL to do anything you want with
>>text: polygon, outline, bitmap, pixmap, extruded 3d polygon, and
>>textured fonts.
>
>
> Screenshots! Must have screenshots!
>
> I tried the ftp link on the project page, but it doesn't work.
> Cells-gtk shows some cool stuff, but I want to see the tk base with
> OpenGL running inside.
>
You mean you do not believe me, or that you wonder what it looks like?
:) If the former, a screenshot won't help, it could be faked. If the
latter, it looks like OpenGL. :) Did you mean something else? I am
afraid my favorite demo has nothing /but/ a togl widget in it.
Wanna see that? (You can tell its a Tk window from the little feather icon.)
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> You mean you do not believe me, or that you wonder what it looks like?
None of the above. :)
I need the motivation to start learning OpenGL. I'd love to someday
write a mini-flight simulator in Lisp to combine two of my greatest
passions - programming and flying. I say 'mini' because I realize what
a terrific challenge this would be. But OpenGL and my new Mac might
ease the pain.
So go ahead, give me something pretty to look at to get me fired up! :)
hmmm, looks like I cannot paste binaries here. I'll put something on my
web site after a run. kt
Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>You mean you do not believe me, or that you wonder what it looks like?
>
>
> None of the above. :)
>
> I need the motivation to start learning OpenGL. I'd love to someday
> write a mini-flight simulator in Lisp to combine two of my greatest
> passions - programming and flying. I say 'mini' because I realize what
> a terrific challenge this would be. But OpenGL and my new Mac might
> ease the pain.
>
> So go ahead, give me something pretty to look at to get me fired up! :)
>
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton wrote:
> hmmm, looks like I cannot paste binaries here. I'll put something on my
> web site after a run. kt
Let me know when you have something up.
Well, you just wanted to see OpenGL (from a Lisp app, I guess) so here
are the shots when Freeglut was the platform (click on various links):
http://www.tilton-technology.com/cellophane.html
You did specify "beautiful", so here is one:
http://www.tilton-technology.com/cello-shot-06.jpg
If I get around to a jazzy new demo I will add something running under
Tcl/Tk/Togl, but right now I am hunkered down on commercial software and
using OpenGL just for portability.
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>>>Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
>>>
>>>>What would be some good reasons to fork over hard earned cash for
>>>>Allegro on Mac OSX rather than sticking with SBCL? I'm mostly doing
>>>>web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
>>>
>>>Aquamacs + SBCL + SLIME is working pretty good and cost nothing.
>> How difficult is it to get develop GUI apps this way?
Using Gnu Emacs + AllegroCl Enterprise + SLIME here I enjoy doing GUIs
at no pain. Web development is next - as soon as there's a Cells-based
Web framework available *g*. Anyone?
>
> It should not matter since you should be using Celtk or Cells-Gtk anyway.
>
> btw, check on the cells-devel list or Frank might chime in here: I
> believe he is using Celtk OK on the OS X/Allegro platform.
I do. Love it. It's easy. Lot's of Tcl/Tk examples out there to steal
ideas from ;-) So I am pretty quick now in putting together a GUI.
Plus I do specify those in a declarative style. Fun. Really.
> He might have looked at alternatives.
Only barebone OpenGL was a real candidate as opposed to previous Celtk
Version 1. Now that Celtk has OpenGL in a widget (via Togl) I am faced
with having both in one tool. Cool!
> Why /Franz/ has not ported Common Graphics and their IDE to Celtk or
> Cells-Gtk only they can tell you. :)
Nah, Kenny, you should refrain from asking for royalties for Celtk for
commerical use ;-)
(No, Kenny doesn't ask for any fees for Celtk. It *was* just a joke -
just to be sure really everyone understands it *g*. Though he might in
the future. Glad I am using it already so it won't hit me ...).
Frank
"Jonathon McKitrick" <···········@bigfoot.com> writes:
>... I'm mostly doing
> web development, but I haven't ruled out client apps.
One thing to note is that SBCL does not support threads on Mac OS X.
It depends on how you're doing your writing, but if you have a
webserver implementation in lisp threads (or even processes) will give
you a great performance increase. Such webservers are the UCW-basic,
Araneida, and AllegroServe. If you're running your lisp code as a CGI
process, then this would not matter.
Other implementations, like ACL, OpenMCL, etc. do support threads on Mac.
-Matt K
Matt Kurjanowicz wrote:
> One thing to note is that SBCL does not support threads on Mac OS X.
FYI, SBCL version 0.9.14, released a little more than a week ago, has
experimental thread support for the Intel Mac OS X.
--
Sidney Markowitz
http://www.sidney.com