From: Trastabuga
Subject: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <1138636078.304777.105580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Hi

I think the problem only happened recently. Now every time I try to
post a problem or ask a question, my question is forwared to the admin
of the forum for approval.
Many times, my message was not approved on grounds that it had some
malformed header.
I posted the same question to the forum, but I guess even after 3 days
the admin still had not time to approve it.
Anyone had this problem? BTW, I use yahoo email system for the list,
could it be a problem?
The funny thing is that just today I received the message on the list
which was really some spam. How did that one get through?

Thanks,
Andrei

From: justinhj
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <1138653781.665938.277620@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Trastabuga wrote:
> Hi
>
> I think the problem only happened recently. Now every time I try to
> post a problem or ask a question, my question is forwared to the admin
> of the forum for approval.
> Many times, my message was not approved on grounds that it had some
> malformed header.
> I posted the same question to the forum, but I guess even after 3 days
> the admin still had not time to approve it.
> Anyone had this problem? BTW, I use yahoo email system for the list,
> could it be a problem?
> The funny thing is that just today I received the message on the list
> which was really some spam. How did that one get through?
>
> Thanks,
> Andrei

I had that problem too. There are various requirements you have to meet
to get your message posted.

http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-rejected

If you post via Yahoo you most probably are getting filtered out for
using html. That is the problem I had, I was posting with google's
gmail.

Justin
From: Cameron MacKinnon
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <43de867f$0$15787$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
justinhj wrote:
> Trastabuga wrote:
> 
>>Hi
>>
>>I think the problem only happened recently. Now every time I try to
>>post a problem or ask a question, my question is forwared to the admin
>>of the forum for approval.
>>Many times, my message was not approved on grounds that it had some
>>malformed header.


> I had that problem too. There are various requirements you have to meet
> to get your message posted.
> 
> http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-rejected

Good grief, what a bunch of feebs must run that list! A week ago, I saw 
a bug report on c.l.l and reposted it to clisp-list, just to ensure it 
didn't fall through the cracks. I got a message:

"Your mail [...] is being held until the list moderator can review it 
for approval. [...] Either the message will get posted to the list, or 
you will receive notification of the moderator's decision."

But, from the aforementioned FAQ:

"If you get a note that �your message is held for moderator's approval�, 
you can safely assume that it went to /dev/null  and try again"

Y'all can safely assume I'll never go out of my way to try to help CLisp 
again, and I'll tell all who ask that it is an implementation best 
suited to the masochistic and the bottoms of this world.
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <1138657342.130886.202860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Cameron MacKinnon wrote:
> justinhj wrote:
> > Trastabuga wrote:
> >
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>I think the problem only happened recently. Now every time I try to
> >>post a problem or ask a question, my question is forwared to the admin
> >>of the forum for approval.
> >>Many times, my message was not approved on grounds that it had some
> >>malformed header.
>
>
> > I had that problem too. There are various requirements you have to meet
> > to get your message posted.
> >
> > http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-rejected
>
> Good grief, what a bunch of feebs must run that list! A week ago, I saw
> a bug report on c.l.l and reposted it to clisp-list, just to ensure it
> didn't fall through the cracks. I got a message:
>
> "Your mail [...] is being held until the list moderator can review it
> for approval. [...] Either the message will get posted to the list, or
> you will receive notification of the moderator's decision."
>
> But, from the aforementioned FAQ:
>
> "If you get a note that "your message is held for moderator's approval",
> you can safely assume that it went to /dev/null  and try again"
>
> Y'all can safely assume I'll never go out of my way to try to help CLisp
> again, and I'll tell all who ask that it is an implementation best
> suited to the masochistic and the bottoms of this world.

It's normal these days to have to subscribe to a list before you can
post to it.
You get this message when you're not subscribed.

Mailing lists that do not follow this practice are deluged with spam.
From: justinhj
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <1138658043.997971.274260@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Rob Thorpe wrote:
> Cameron MacKinnon wrote:
> > justinhj wrote:
> > > Trastabuga wrote:
> > >
> > >>Hi
> > >>
> > >>I think the problem only happened recently. Now every time I try to
> > >>post a problem or ask a question, my question is forwared to the admin
> > >>of the forum for approval.
> > >>Many times, my message was not approved on grounds that it had some
> > >>malformed header.
> >
> >
> > > I had that problem too. There are various requirements you have to meet
> > > to get your message posted.
> > >
> > > http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-rejected
> >
> > Good grief, what a bunch of feebs must run that list! A week ago, I saw
> > a bug report on c.l.l and reposted it to clisp-list, just to ensure it
> > didn't fall through the cracks. I got a message:
> >
> > "Your mail [...] is being held until the list moderator can review it
> > for approval. [...] Either the message will get posted to the list, or
> > you will receive notification of the moderator's decision."
> >
> > But, from the aforementioned FAQ:
> >
> > "If you get a note that "your message is held for moderator's approval",
> > you can safely assume that it went to /dev/null  and try again"
> >
> > Y'all can safely assume I'll never go out of my way to try to help CLisp
> > again, and I'll tell all who ask that it is an implementation best
> > suited to the masochistic and the bottoms of this world.
>
> It's normal these days to have to subscribe to a list before you can
> post to it.
> You get this message when you're not subscribed.
>
> Mailing lists that do not follow this practice are deluged with spam.

My problem is that I don't think you can tell gmail how to format its
outgoing mail. In the options I could choose between default format or
uft8.

That being the case I couldn't send a plain text message to the clisp
group without changing my email client. So I didn't.

Justin
From: Cameron MacKinnon
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <43de90f4$0$15792$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Rob Thorpe wrote:
> Cameron MacKinnon wrote:
> 
>>Good grief, what a bunch of feebs must run that list!

> It's normal these days to have to subscribe to a list before you can
> post to it.
> You get this message when you're not subscribed.

If that's the standard error message these days, we've regressed. I can 
remember a time when the error message one received in that situation 
was appropriate and informative. And you'll never get me to accept that 
lying to legitimate posters is appropriate behaviour, regardless.


> Mailing lists that do not follow this practice are deluged with spam.

http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html

Works great! Invented here! So sad to see people suggesting (in the FAQ) 
that the two alternatives are the computer indiscriminately lying to 
people or people doing drudgework which computers can demonstrably do as 
well or better.
From: Rob Thorpe
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <1138699590.326425.165650@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Cameron MacKinnon wrote:
> Rob Thorpe wrote:
> > Cameron MacKinnon wrote:
> >
> >>Good grief, what a bunch of feebs must run that list!
>
> > It's normal these days to have to subscribe to a list before you can
> > post to it.
> > You get this message when you're not subscribed.
>
> If that's the standard error message these days, we've regressed. I can
> remember a time when the error message one received in that situation
> was appropriate and informative. And you'll never get me to accept that
> lying to legitimate posters is appropriate behaviour, regardless.

I don't know the practices of the clisp maintainers, and I'm not
necessarily defending them, but recent version of mailman do this by
default.  The person who installed it may not even know.

> > Mailing lists that do not follow this practice are deluged with spam.
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html
>
> Works great! Invented here! So sad to see people suggesting (in the FAQ)
> that the two alternatives are the computer indiscriminately lying to
> people or people doing drudgework which computers can demonstrably do as
> well or better.

That doesn't help the incoming mail. It's possible to block most of the
spam from the outgoing stream, but not vice versa.

I get stress from the IT guys where I work because my email address
recieves enough spam to use up quite a bit of bandwidth.
From: Joerg Hoehle
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <uvevzorx2.fsf@users.sourceforge.net>
Cameron MacKinnon <··········@clearspot.net> writes:
> > It's normal these days to have to subscribe to a list before you can
> > post to it.
> > You get this message when you're not subscribed.
> 
> If that's the standard error message these days, we've regressed. I can 
> remember a time when the error message one received in that situation 
> was appropriate and informative. And you'll never get me to accept that 
> lying to legitimate posters is appropriate behaviour, regardless.
[...]
> Y'all can safely assume I'll never go out of my way to try to help CLisp
> again,

I'm also p.o.'ed by the typical settings of mailing lists on
sourceforge.net, apache.org, and common-lisp.net.

-- Cameron, CLISP is just one among many others. Please reconsider --

1. The mailing list archive pages are always eager to mention the
   email address of the mailing list.
   They never bother to explain whether subscription is needed first.

That's IMHO preparing a slap in the user's face. The slap happens when
the user receives the "waiting for moderator approval" message.

2. The unsubscribed user receives a "waiting for moderator approval
   message".  The message should be: "We're sorry, due to spam abuse,
   we cannot let message through from non-subscribed addresses.  See #1.
   Your email will not be forwarded.  [It's attached to this email
   so you can resend it once you'Re subscribed.]"

3. Most moderators I talked to told me privately or publicly that they
   receive so much spam that they cannot afford to attempt to filter
   out good messages among those.  Messages from non-subscribed
   addresses usually go unseen to (make-broadcast-stream).  See #2.


In former days, many mailing lists were open.  UCE and Spam must be
considered a continued DoS attack on people's and institutions mailing
services.  The net result is a reduction in useability and
communication (when people won'T go through all the effort to analyse
the error email (it could be a virus), subscribe and resubmit).  Heck,
somebody other that we should pay for that :-(

Spam and UCE has been a DoS on my using usenet news.  For >5 years
IIRC, at my new employer, I did not post messages, for fear of spam
that would follow.  And I missed the advice to questions I would have
liked to post to usenet.

Nowadays, I don't fear spam anymore.  I receive >100 a day, so I'm
cured :-)  (and spamfilters help)

BTW, I'll send this to Erik Enge, the gentle common-lisp.net
maintainer. Hopefully he can modify centrally all the mailing list web
pages to mention that a) the lists are "subscription only" (aka closed).

Regards,
	Jorg Hohle
Telekom/T-Systems Technology Center
From: Erik Enge
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <1138821434.855534.325130@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Joerg Hoehle wrote:
> BTW, I'll send this to Erik Enge, the gentle common-lisp.net
> maintainer. Hopefully he can modify centrally all the mailing list web
> pages to mention that a) the lists are "subscription only" (aka closed).

I have patch Mailman on common-lisp.net to display a message indicating
that the user has to subscribe in order to post.  This message will
only be displayed if this is the case, of course.  However, please not
that the maintainers of those list can change the HTML and if they
remove the MM-Restricted-List directive from the HTML my message goes
away and I don't want to maintain nearly 500 (and growing) individual
HTML files to make sure this message is displayed.

I have not done anything to aleviate your frustration with the message
that is sent by Mailman.  Do you think I have to, given the
above-mentioned message?

Thanks,
Erik.
From: Joerg Hoehle
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <uacd3ovuh.fsf@users.sourceforge.net>
"Erik Enge" <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> I have patch Mailman on common-lisp.net to display a message indicating
> that the user has to subscribe in order to post.   However, please not
> that the maintainers of those list can change the HTML
Great news. I went to 
http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo
picked one at random, and found the useful boldface.
Well done, thanks!


> I have not done anything to aleviate your frustration with the message
> that is sent by Mailman.  Do you think I have to, given the
> above-mentioned message?

Yes, because people may be given email-addresses and don't necessarily
come through the above page.  Then they shall receive an informative
message from the mailing-list bot.

Regards,
	Jorg Hohle
Telekom/T-Systems Technology Center
From: Larry Clapp
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <slrndu27t1.2kq.larry@theclapp.ddts.net>
On 2006-02-01, Joerg Hoehle <······@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> Cameron MacKinnon <··········@clearspot.net> writes:
>> > It's normal these days to have to subscribe to a list before you
>> > can post to it.  You get this message when you're not subscribed.
>> 
>> If that's the standard error message these days, we've regressed. I
>> can remember a time when the error message one received in that
>> situation was appropriate and informative. And you'll never get me
>> to accept that lying to legitimate posters is appropriate
>> behaviour, regardless.
> [...]
>> Y'all can safely assume I'll never go out of my way to try to help
>> CLisp again,
>
> I'm also p.o.'ed by the typical settings of mailing lists on
> sourceforge.net, apache.org, and common-lisp.net.
>
> -- Cameron, CLISP is just one among many others. Please reconsider --
>
> 1. The mailing list archive pages are always eager to mention the
>    email address of the mailing list.  They never bother to explain
>    whether subscription is needed first.

Good point.  I've added such a notice to the SLIMPL mailing list
information page.

-- L
From: Frank Buss
Subject: Re: Problems writing to clisp mailing list
Date: 
Message-ID: <f5eb8g3gunuo.1j4vb4ly62b6m.dlg@40tude.net>
Cameron MacKinnon wrote:

> Good grief, what a bunch of feebs must run that list! A week ago, I saw 
> a bug report on c.l.l and reposted it to clisp-list, just to ensure it 
> didn't fall through the cracks.

see http://clisp.cons.org/ and the link for "bug reports":

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=1355&atid=101355

No eMail is needed to submit bugs, just a free Sourceforge account.

-- 
Frank Buss, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de