O'Reilly Ruby author discovers Lisp (and LTk) and tells the world about it:
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/wlg/8953
Cred to Marc Spitzer for spotting that.
kenny
cool!
I downloaded the ltk package and it worked straight away with my Cygwin
setup (CLISP 2.35, wish84). Wow, now I can do GUIs in lisp!
I hear the "Lisp In a Box" package is a bit light and takes too little
time to download. Perhaps Tcl/Tk and LTk should be added to give it a
little more heft.
--jfc
funkyj wrote:
> cool!
>
> I downloaded the ltk package and it worked straight away with my Cygwin
> setup (CLISP 2.35, wish84). Wow, now I can do GUIs in lisp!
>
> I hear the "Lisp In a Box" package is a bit light and takes too little
> time to download. Perhaps Tcl/Tk and LTk should be added to give it a
> little more heft.
<heh-heh> Good one. Lisp sucks! The DL was over in seconds!!
Meanwhile, I just checked to reconfirm, looks like O'Reilly has softened
their stance on "no Lisp books!":
"We're NOT looking for:
* Books that overlap too heavily with our existing books.
* Books on proprietary technologies that don't have a huge user base.
* Books on miniscule (i.e., personal or nascent) products, even if
they are open source."
Damn, just as I was putting my finishing touches on the Cells book.
"... * Books on topics that have dismal sales despite quality books
being available. (If you're addressing a topic where good books have
sold dismally in the past (for instance, LISP, LaTeX, or Web-based
training), you have a much higher threshold to clear with your proposal.
Convince us why there is a revival of interest in your topic, or why
your approach to a deadly topic will provoke interest nonetheless.)
* Books that have been rejected by other publishers, in most cases."
[Aside: that last constraint is quite sad. It proclaims loudly "we have
no special ability to recognize good stuff". They are almost bragging
that they are sheep among sheep. Anyway...]
Ok, now we can sell a proposal on a turd like Lisp, but only if we jump
up and down and scream persuasively... hmm, still sounds like a big
"fuck you" to the Lisp community.
:)
kenny
Kenny Tilton <·············@nyc.rr.com> writes:
<O'Reilly pathetic positions>
> Ok, now we can sell a proposal on a turd like Lisp, but only if we
> jump up and down and scream persuasively... hmm, still sounds like a
> big "fuck you" to the Lisp community.
Sure. OTOH, f**k them, and support Apress. O'Reilly only sell books
on shit anyway.
/Jon
--
'j' - a n t h o n y at romeo/charley/november com
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <43eanjF1lu0j9U1@individual.net>
jayessay wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·············@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> <O'Reilly pathetic positions>
>
>> Ok, now we can sell a proposal on a turd like Lisp, but only if we
>> jump up and down and scream persuasively... hmm, still sounds like a
>> big "fuck you" to the Lisp community.
>
> Sure. OTOH, f**k them, and support Apress. O'Reilly only sell books
> on shit anyway.
If by that you mean that their books suck, yes, I haven't yet
encountered an O'Reilly book I'd consider really good, but then I try to
avoid them generally.
So it's more of a *compliment* towards Lisp that there are no Lisp books
by O'Reilly!
--
The problems of the real world are primarily those you are left with
when you refuse to apply their effective solutions.
Edsger W. Dijkstra
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> jayessay wrote:
> > Kenny Tilton <·············@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> > <O'Reilly pathetic positions>
> >
> >> Ok, now we can sell a proposal on a turd like Lisp, but only if we
> >> jump up and down and scream persuasively... hmm, still sounds like a
> >> big "fuck you" to the Lisp community.
> > Sure. OTOH, f**k them, and support Apress. O'Reilly only sell books
> > on shit anyway.
>
> If by that you mean that their books suck, yes, I haven't yet
> encountered an O'Reilly book I'd consider really good, but then I try
> to avoid them generally.
Actually, I meant it both ways: your interpretation and that most of
the subject material they offer up sucks as well.
/Jon
--
'j' - a n t h o n y at romeo/charley/november com
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> I haven't yet encountered an O'Reilly book I'd consider really good,
> but then I try to avoid them generally.
I too have turned away from O'Reilly for the last five years or so,
but recently I've taken an interest in their /Theory in Practice/
series. I'm partway through /Database in Depth/� and am impressed both
with the content and production quality.
For some reason, there's no obvious page dedicated to grouping the
books in this series. Here are a few others:
o The Art of Project Management
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/artprojectmgmt/
o Applied Software Project Management
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/appliedprojectmgmt/
o Enterprise Service Bus
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/esb/
Footnotes:
� http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/databaseid/index.html
--
Steven E. Harris
Steven E. Harris wrote:
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
>>I haven't yet encountered an O'Reilly book I'd consider really good,
>>but then I try to avoid them generally.
>
>
> I too have turned away from O'Reilly for the last five years or so,
> but recently I've taken an interest in their /Theory in Practice/
> series. I'm partway through /Database in Depth/� and am impressed both
> with the content and production quality.
How does it compare against "An Introduction to Database
Systems" [1] also by C.J.Date ?
[1]
<http://www.aw-bc.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0321197844,00.html>
--
Jens Axel S�gaard
Jens Axel S�gaard <······@soegaard.net> writes:
> How does it compare against "An Introduction to Database Systems"
> also by C.J.Date ?
I haven't read /An Introduction/ (only glanced through an earlier
edition in a store), but I'm pretty sure that Date spends part of the
foreword or introduction in /Database in Depth/ addressing how this
book is different from and overlaps with others he's written.
/Database in Depth/ reads almost like a manifesto. Much of it so far
attacks commonly-held ideas as harmful simplifications and
institutionalized misunderstandings of better but more generalized
theories. It's a purist contrarian's rant.
The O'Reilly interview� with Date is worth reading to see where he's
coming from.
Footnotes:
� http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/07/29/cjdate.html
--
Steven E. Harris
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <43ktfaF1o1ftjU1@individual.net>
Steven E. Harris wrote:
> /Database in Depth/ reads almost like a manifesto. Much of it so far
> attacks commonly-held ideas as harmful simplifications and
> institutionalized misunderstandings of better but more generalized
> theories. It's a purist contrarian's rant.
No, really? ;)
Date is a well known person in the trade. See here:
http://www.thethirdmanifesto.com/
That's why I'm asking if his books go into depth (i.e. implementation of
concepts, not necessarily of SQL). It'd be cool to write a decent
database system some day. After all, nobody works in SQL directly
anymore anyway. If we use wrappers, why not one that's well designed
(or whose underlying language is)?
> The O'Reilly interview� with Date is worth reading to see where he's
> coming from.
>
>
> Footnotes:
> � http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/07/29/cjdate.html
:)
--
The problems of the real world are primarily those you are left with
when you refuse to apply their effective solutions.
Edsger W. Dijkstra
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> No, really? ;)
>
> Date is a well known person in the trade.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be didactic. I was just trying to summarize
Date's position as one unique among technical authors today.
> See here: http://www.thethirdmanifesto.com/
This will keep me busy for a while. Thanks.
--
Steven E. Harris
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <43kn1cF1o1ujnU2@individual.net>
Jens Axel S�gaard wrote:
> Steven E. Harris wrote:
>> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>>
>>> I haven't yet encountered an O'Reilly book I'd consider really good,
>>> but then I try to avoid them generally.
>>
>>
>> I too have turned away from O'Reilly for the last five years or so,
>> but recently I've taken an interest in their /Theory in Practice/
>> series. I'm partway through /Database in Depth/� and am impressed both
>> with the content and production quality.
>
> How does it compare against "An Introduction to Database
> Systems" [1] also by C.J.Date ?
OMG. Date wrote a book for O'Reilly? Hell just froze over.
> [1]
> <http://www.aw-bc.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0321197844,00.html>
How's this one, by the way?
I wonder if any of the two goes into depth, or if they're just
introductions.
--
The problems of the real world are primarily those you are left with
when you refuse to apply their effective solutions.
Edsger W. Dijkstra
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Jens Axel S�gaard wrote:
>> [1]
>> <http://www.aw-bc.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0321197844,00.html>
>
>
> How's this one, by the way?
>
> I wonder if any of the two goes into depth, or if they're just
> introductions.
I like it because of the theory. However it is the only
book on book on databases I have, so I have no idea how
it compared to the competition.
Btw - I'd like to buy a book on database *implementation* -
any suggestions? (I had a hard time finding anything
in Google - introductions are easier to find ...)
--
Jens Axel S�gaard
From: Bruce Baker
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <S9bBf.143366$WH.139349@dukeread01>
"Jens Axel S�gaard" <······@soegaard.net> wrote in message
······························@dread12.news.tele.dk...
<snip>
> Btw - I'd like to buy a book on database *implementation* -
> any suggestions? (I had a hard time finding anything
> in Google - introductions are easier to find ...)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0130402648/qid=1138048523/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-9898345-7611260?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <m23bjebvp9.fsf@gigamonkeys.com>
Jens Axel S�gaard <······@soegaard.net> writes:
> Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
>> Jens Axel S�gaard wrote:
>
>>> [1]
>>> <http://www.aw-bc.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0321197844,00.html>
>> How's this one, by the way?
>> I wonder if any of the two goes into depth, or if they're just
>> introductions.
>
> I like it because of the theory. However it is the only
> book on book on databases I have, so I have no idea how
> it compared to the competition.
>
> Btw - I'd like to buy a book on database *implementation* -
> any suggestions? (I had a hard time finding anything
> in Google - introductions are easier to find ...)
I learned (almost) everything I needed to know to build my own
transactional object database from _Transaction Processing: Concepts
and Techniques_ by Jim Gray and Andreas Reuter.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel * ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Gigamonkeys Consulting * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/
Practical Common Lisp * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <uhd7ulnap.fsf@agharta.de>
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:17:22 GMT, Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> wrote:
> [...] build my own transactional object database [...]
In Lisp?
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <m2u0buadng.fsf@gigamonkeys.com>
Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
> On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:17:22 GMT, Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> wrote:
>
>> [...] build my own transactional object database [...]
>
> In Lisp?
Sadly no. In Java. Though doing that was the thing that made me quit
my job with no more plan than to hack Lisp for a year. Instead I spent
two years writing a book.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel * ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Gigamonkeys Consulting * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/
Practical Common Lisp * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
Kenny Tilton <·············@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> * Books that have been rejected by other publishers, in most cases."
>
> [Aside: that last constraint is quite sad. It proclaims loudly "we
> have no special ability to recognize good stuff". They are almost
> bragging that they are sheep among sheep. Anyway...]
No, they just want to have the first opportunity to accept a book.
"No sir, it hasn't been rejected by anybody." (yet).
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Until real software engineering is developed, the next best practice
is to develop with a dynamic system that has extreme late binding in
all aspects. The first system to really do this in an important way
is Lisp. -- Alan Kay
Kenny Tilton <·············@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Meanwhile, I just checked to reconfirm, looks like O'Reilly has
> softened their stance on "no Lisp books!":
Too little, too late. The publisher that is going to get rich quick
with Lisp is Apress :)
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
The Common Lisp Directory: http://www.cl-user.net
From: Cor Gest
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <874q3woqxx.fsf@atthis.clsnet.nl>
Some entity AKA Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
wrote this mind-boggling stuff:
> > Meanwhile, I just checked to reconfirm, looks like O'Reilly has
> > softened their stance on "no Lisp books!":
>
> Too little, too late. The publisher that is going to get rich quick
> with Lisp is Apress :)
It would be nice to knoww, as a proud owner of a copy,, how
many copies of PCL Apress sold by now. ;-^)
Cor
--
To really make a mess of things one should use a computer
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <m27j8scl6j.fsf@gigamonkeys.com>
···@clsnet.nl (Cor Gest) writes:
> Some entity AKA Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
> wrote this mind-boggling stuff:
>
>
>> > Meanwhile, I just checked to reconfirm, looks like O'Reilly has
>> > softened their stance on "no Lisp books!":
>>
>> Too little, too late. The publisher that is going to get rich quick
>> with Lisp is Apress :)
>
> It would be nice to knoww, as a proud owner of a copy,, how
> many copies of PCL Apress sold by now. ;-^)
Several thousand. Though that's just Apress->distributors/large book
sellers; many of those copies are presumably still sitting on shelves
waiting to be bought by actual readers.
The thing I'm trying to figure is why over the past few weeks Graham's
_ANSI Common Lisp_ has been having a resurgence on Amazon, outselling
PCL pretty consistently for the first time since PCL came out. I must
need to pick up my marketing efforts. On the other hand I don't think
*any* Lisp book was selling as well as either Graham's or mine before
PCL came out so I figure he's just riding my coattails. ;-)
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel * ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Gigamonkeys Consulting * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/
Practical Common Lisp * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> wrote:
> The thing I'm trying to figure is why over the past few weeks Graham's
> _ANSI Common Lisp_ has been having a resurgence on Amazon, outselling PCL
> pretty consistently for the first time since PCL came out. I must need to
> pick up my marketing efforts. On the other hand I don't think *any* Lisp
> book was selling as well as either Graham's or mine before PCL came out so
> I figure he's just riding my coattails. ;-)
>
My previous experience with Lisp was with Weissman's "Lisp 1.5 Primer"
(yes, I'm ancient). I don't remember why in the last year I decided to
start (re)learning Lisp; it may have been one of Paul Graham's articles
(but, for the life of me, I don't remember how I got to it).
I do, however, remember downloading the .pdf version of your book,
putting pre-punched paper in the laser printer, printing the whole thing
out, and taking the 3-ring binder to the beach.
I was at a local computer store today returning a defective mouse;
afterwards I decided to browse their book section. There was one copy
of PCL. I just couldn't see spending $42.95 when I already had a copy,
even though I would prefer the bound version. Two kids in college has a
little bit to do with it.
It also doesn't help sales that "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to
Symbolic Computation" is online.
I'll eventually buy a copy because I happen to think that authors should
be recompensed for their works; but there is some truth to the saying
"why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"
BTW, how do you pronouce your last name? Long i or long e?
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <m2k6crbypj.fsf@gigamonkeys.com>
····@stablecross.com (Bob Felts) writes:
> Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> wrote:
>
>> The thing I'm trying to figure is why over the past few weeks Graham's
>> _ANSI Common Lisp_ has been having a resurgence on Amazon, outselling PCL
>> pretty consistently for the first time since PCL came out. I must need to
>> pick up my marketing efforts. On the other hand I don't think *any* Lisp
>> book was selling as well as either Graham's or mine before PCL came out so
>> I figure he's just riding my coattails. ;-)
> It also doesn't help sales that "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction
> to Symbolic Computation" is online.
Well, if I was worried about online books canibalizing sales, I'd be
more worried about my own book being online free for the taking. But
neither of those explains the recent uptick in sales of _ANSI Common
Lisp_. Maybe there's some university that just came back into session
after the winter break and uses _ANSI Common Lisp_ for some spring
semester course. Who knows.
> BTW, how do you pronouce your last name? Long i or long e?
Long i, as in "eye". SIGH-bull. (a.k.a. German pronunciation, more or
less.)
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel * ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Gigamonkeys Consulting * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/
Practical Common Lisp * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
Peter Seibel wrote:
> ····@stablecross.com (Bob Felts) writes:
>
>
>>Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The thing I'm trying to figure is why over the past few weeks Graham's
>>>_ANSI Common Lisp_ has been having a resurgence on Amazon, outselling PCL
>>>pretty consistently for the first time since PCL came out. I must need to
>>>pick up my marketing efforts. On the other hand I don't think *any* Lisp
>>>book was selling as well as either Graham's or mine before PCL came out so
>>>I figure he's just riding my coattails. ;-)
>
>
>>It also doesn't help sales that "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction
>>to Symbolic Computation" is online.
>
>
> Well, if I was worried about online books canibalizing sales, I'd be
> more worried about my own book being online free for the taking. But
> neither of those explains the recent uptick in sales of _ANSI Common
> Lisp_. Maybe there's some university that just came back into session
> after the winter break and uses _ANSI Common Lisp_ for some spring
> semester course. Who knows.
Kenny knows. You might be right a little about the coattails. Mostly we
just have a typical exponential growth curve in Lisp interest, with your
valuable tome probably giving it a timely boost. But it is really just
Lisp mindhsare taking off. So folks go looking for books and Graham is
still (sorry) the reigning Lisp Legend. his writings and slashdot
coverage of same give him the brand recognition. when folks go looking
for lisp books they see Graham and go, oh, that is what I am looking
for. a strong brand does that. And Graham's book is fine, too, in a
different way. (For learniing Lisp vs using it (your book).)
The good news is that Graham's ACL sales reflect a rising tide, and you
know what that does to all boats.
kenny
I didn't know anything about _ANSI Common Lisp_ picking up sales, but I
did notice that the price for a used copy of _On Lisp_ has gone up
recently. One guess as to why these books have picked up sales could
be that PCL acted as a bit of a catalyst. Readers who have picked up
and enjoyed PCL may be looking for their next Lisp book.
My 2cents
From: Cor Gest
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <877j8r4u8h.fsf@atthis.clsnet.nl>
Some entity AKA "RobPratte" <·······@gmail.com>
wrote this mind-boggling stuff:
> I didn't know anything about _ANSI Common Lisp_ picking up sales, but I
> did notice that the price for a used copy of _On Lisp_ has gone up
> recently.
> be that PCL acted as a bit of a catalyst. Readers who have picked up
> and enjoyed PCL may be looking for their next Lisp book.
Well, PCL does make those `heavies' and PAIP a lot easier to digest.
Cor
--
To really make a mess of things one should use a computer
From: Cor Gest
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Lisp? Looks like it is just a matter of time...
Date:
Message-ID: <87y818ruy7.fsf@atthis.clsnet.nl>
Some entity AKA Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com>
wrote this mind-boggling stuff:
> Several thousand. Though that's just Apress->distributors/large book
> sellers; many of those copies are presumably still sitting on shelves
> waiting to be bought by actual readers.
>
> The thing I'm trying to figure is why over the past few weeks Graham's
> _ANSI Common Lisp_ has been having a resurgence on Amazon, outselling
> PCL pretty consistently for the first time since PCL came out. I must
> need to pick up my marketing efforts. On the other hand I don't think
> *any* Lisp book was selling as well as either Graham's or mine before
> PCL came out so I figure he's just riding my coattails. ;-)
Well, that is not a bad anyway.
And `On Lisp' is still out-of-print to get the ride-along,
but who knows.
But all in all PCL, ACL, OL, and PAIP are most recommended titles if
Lisp-books are mentioned at all.
Maybe we'll have a `lisp for dummies in 24 hours' in a year or so :^)
(if lisp sales keep rising)
Cor
--
To really make a mess of things one should use a computer
Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> wrote:
> The thing I'm trying to figure is why over the past few weeks Graham's
> _ANSI Common Lisp_ has been having a resurgence on Amazon, outselling
> PCL pretty consistently for the first time since PCL came out. I must
> need to pick up my marketing efforts. On the other hand I don't think
> *any* Lisp book was selling as well as either Graham's or mine before
> PCL came out so I figure he's just riding my coattails. ;-)
I've noticed that I'm hearing about Paul Graham outside the lisp
community much more often the last few months or so.
I think the whole Y-Combinator stuff is starting to get noticed.
He also just published _Hackers and Painters_ last year which is aimed
at a much wider audience than any lisp book. I suspect that's getting
some attention and crossovers.
So it doesn't surprise me that _ANSI common lisp_ is selling
particularly well right now. He's becoming quite the little celebrity,
AFAICT.
Michael
> Meanwhile, I just checked to reconfirm, looks like O'Reilly has
> softened their stance on "no Lisp books!":
[snip]
> "... * Books on topics that have dismal sales despite quality books
> being available. (If you're addressing a topic where good books have
> sold dismally in the past (for instance, LISP, LaTeX, or Web-based
> training), you have a much higher threshold to clear with your
> proposal. Convince us why there is a revival of interest in your
> topic, or why your approach to a deadly topic will provoke interest
> nonetheless.)
> * Books that have been rejected by other publishers, in most
> cases."
>
> [Aside: that last constraint is quite sad. It proclaims loudly "we
> have no special ability to recognize good stuff". They are almost
> bragging that they are sheep among sheep. Anyway...]
>
> Ok, now we can sell a proposal on a turd like Lisp, but only if we
> jump up and down and scream persuasively... hmm, still sounds like a
> big "fuck you" to the Lisp community.
>
>:)
>
> kenny
You could look at it this way: Lisp has a lot of *free* books, and a
generous community to provide them that way, so it helps get people
interested in Lisp, when it doesn't cost them $40 to get to learn it.
Just off the top of my head, there's PCL (Practical Common Lisp),
Successful Lisp, On Lisp (which I printed out and I'm currently a fifth
of the way through), and so on.
Jeremy.