I'm a 48 year old techie in Denver, CO, USA. I'd like to stay technical but
it seems most of the real design/code/test work has gone overseas. All I've
been doing in the states for the last 10 years is systems integration work,
glueing together stuff developed elsewhere. I've had to do a lot of Java
and JavaScript which are really pretty weak tools compared to my favorites
(Smalltalk and Python). I'd like to find a niche where I could do more of
what I think of as "real" development. Is LISP used much
in the commercial world? And what fields is it used in? If there are some
reasonable prospects, I'll invest the time to learn this tool that appears
to be very powerful but off the radar of most hiring managers.
Techie Bill wrote:
> I'm a 48 year old techie in Denver, CO, USA. I'd like to stay technical but
> it seems most of the real design/code/test work has gone overseas.
Nonsense.
> All I've
> been doing in the states for the last 10 years is systems integration work,
> glueing together stuff developed elsewhere. I've had to do a lot of Java
> and JavaScript which are really pretty weak tools compared to my favorites
> (Smalltalk and Python). I'd like to find a niche where I could do more of
> what I think of as "real" development. Is LISP used much
> in the commercial world? And what fields is it used in? If there are some
> reasonable prospects, I'll invest the time to learn this tool that appears
> to be very powerful but off the radar of most hiring managers.
Wow. People are going to start buying PCL and then putting Lisp on their
resumes? Maybe not in that order?
Lisp is back!
As for your predicament, Lisp is damn close to making Oprah's Language
of the Month list, so those hiring managers may surprise you. And it
never hurts to have something in there that makes you stand out.
Smalltalk kinda covers that, but thx to PCL people will grok pretty
quickly that CL is a much more serious industrial-strength language.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to run out and buy a basketball. I
hear NBA players are rolling in hot chicks.
kt
Techie Bill wrote:
[top posting fixed]
>
>>Wow. People are going to start buying PCL and then putting Lisp on their
>>resumes? Maybe not in that order?
>
> OK, so what is PCL?
>
>
>
It's "Practical Common Lisp" by Peter Seibel, a regular here.
You may access it for free at:
http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
[But, of course, *purchasing* a dead tree version is an even better
idea.][1]
--ag
[1] Don't worry, Peter. That's a freebie! ;-)
--
Artie Gold -- Austin, Texas
http://goldsays.blogspot.com
http://www.cafepress.com/goldsays
"If you have nothing to hide, you're not trying!"
"Techie Bill" <······@nospam.com> writes:
> OK, so what is PCL?
Practical Common Lisp
http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
The Common Lisp Directory: http://www.cl-user.net
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:39:04 -0700, "Techie Bill" <······@nospam.com> wrote:
> Is LISP used much in the commercial world?
No. Not yet... :)
> If there are some reasonable prospects, I'll invest the time to
> learn this tool that appears to be very powerful but off the radar
> of most hiring managers.
It's definitely worthwhile to learn (Common) Lisp but if you're doing
it just to increase your chance to get a job you should probably do
something else instead.
Cheers,
Edi.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
From: Troels Henriksen
Subject: Re: Will LISP Help My Resume ?
Date:
Message-ID: <87irsma6v7.fsf@sigkill.dk>
Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:39:04 -0700, "Techie Bill" <······@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Is LISP used much in the commercial world?
>
> No. Not yet... :)
"Not anymore" might be the most accurate answer. :)
Seriously, what kind of jobs are Lisp most commonly used for? Apart
from the usual suspects of AI and miscellaneus research, I've heard
some things about it being used in bioinformatics. Am I correct in
assuming that most commercial Lisp development takes place in small
software companies developing for niche markets? While I still have
*many* years of study left, I would like to know if there is any
chance at all of using Lisp - besides starting my own company, of
course.
--
\ Troels "Athas" Henriksen
/\ sigkill.dk/blog (Danish)
Troels Henriksen wrote:
> Seriously, what kind of jobs are Lisp most commonly used for?
you seem to be making the assumption that the resume will be
evaluated by a rather dumb recruiter, i.e., someone comparing
lists of buzzwords without necessarily understanding them. And
you are right most of the time of course. One might hope however
to find this rare employer who doesn't only look for specific
skills but for a mindset, e.g., someone's curiosity or
willingness to learn new (or old as the case maybe) stuff, even
if said stuff is not used for the job... well, shoot me, I
am an optimist :-)
--Sylvain
Troels Henriksen wrote:
> Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
>
> > On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:39:04 -0700, "Techie Bill" <······@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Is LISP used much in the commercial world?
> >
> > No. Not yet... :)
>
> "Not anymore" might be the most accurate answer. :)
Geez, look at this guy's first name! How dumb does he think we are?!
Troels Henriksen wrote:
> Seriously, what kind of jobs are Lisp most commonly used for? Apart
> from the usual suspects of AI and miscellaneus research, I've heard
> some things about it being used in bioinformatics. Am I correct in
> assuming that most commercial Lisp development takes place in small
> software companies developing for niche markets? While I still have
> *many* years of study left, I would like to know if there is any
> chance at all of using Lisp - besides starting my own company, of
> course.
http://www.xanalys.com/aboutus/index.html
http://www.franz.com/success/
Also, if you've spent much time on Lisp related sites that have Google
ads, you may have noticed this one:
Functional Prog. Jobs
Lisp hackers welcome!
Program in OCaml at Jane Street
www.janestcapital.com/ocaml.html
It's not a Lisp job, per se, but it is a company that's bought the
keyword 'lisp' in order to advertise for employees.
Troels Henriksen wrote:
> Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
>
>
>>On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:39:04 -0700, "Techie Bill" <······@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Is LISP used much in the commercial world?
>>
>>No. Not yet... :)
>
>
> "Not anymore" might be the most accurate answer. :)
>
> Seriously, what kind of jobs are Lisp most commonly used for? Apart
> from the usual suspects of AI and miscellaneus research, I've heard
> some things about it being used in bioinformatics. Am I correct in
> assuming that most commercial Lisp development takes place in small
> software companies developing for niche markets? While I still have
> *many* years of study left, I would like to know if there is any
> chance at all of using Lisp - besides starting my own company, of
> course.
Of course. :) People read Graham, they just do not listen to him:
http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/ideas.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/sfp.html
Trying to find a job doing Lisp /completely/ misses the point of Lisp.
Your employer will /not/ pay you ten times as much as someone of your
ability using Java. They will merely benefit ten times as much.
Hello?
The big point Graham makes is that you need neither an astounding idea
nor a lot of capital to start a successful company. People not starting
their own companies are actually just self-limiting. "Other people start
companies, not me."
Have you /ever/ used software you did not think could be better a dozen
ways? Go get 'em. Lisp gives you the killer productivity edge to win
with a one-person team.
And really, you only need to win small to match what you can make as a
salaried Java monkey. Used to be I could pick up the newspaper and be
working for $100/hr a week later doing COBOL. Those days are gone, and
they ain't comin' back.
Hmmm. Maybe the marketing pitch for Lisp should be (and I know I did not
invent this) "Lisp: The entrepreneur's programming language." We already
have the poster boy.
kt
> I'm a 48 year old techie in Denver, CO, USA. I'd like to stay
> technical but it seems most of the real design/code/test work has
> gone overseas. All I've been doing in the states for the last 10
> years is systems integration work, glueing together stuff developed
> elsewhere. I've had to do a lot of Java and JavaScript which are
> really pretty weak tools compared to my favorites (Smalltalk and
> Python). I'd like to find a niche where I could do more of what I
> think of as "real" development. Is LISP used much in the commercial
> world? And what fields is it used in? If there are some reasonable
> prospects, I'll invest the time to learn this tool that appears to
> be very powerful but off the radar of most hiring managers.
I think you'll find adding Lisp to your resume to be fairly much
useless as far as hiring managers are concerned.
Amongst Paul Graham's proteges, there may be people hiring with Lisp
in mind. Orbitz and related companies also would value seeing
significant experience with it on a resume. But these places are
*very* specific* targets.
Most other places, it'll be of as much interest as Oberon, Prolog, or
Modula-3.
I had one coworker who mentioned Lisp on their resume; I did pick up
on it, and asked a question or two, to which the answer was the not
surprising "Oh, there was a 3 week module in a 3rd year course;
haven't touched it since..." He was a good hire anyways :-).
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="gmail.com" in name ^ ·@" ^ tld;;
http://cbbrowne.com/info/slony.html
"I would guess that he really believes whatever is politically
advantageous for him to believe." -- Alison Brooks, referring to
Michael Portillo, on soc.history.what-if
Techie Bill wrote:
> I'm a 48 year old techie in Denver, CO, USA. I'd like to stay technical but
> it seems most of the real design/code/test work has gone overseas. All I've
> been doing in the states for the last 10 years is systems integration work,
> glueing together stuff developed elsewhere. I've had to do a lot of Java
> and JavaScript which are really pretty weak tools compared to my favorites
> (Smalltalk and Python). I'd like to find a niche where I could do more of
> what I think of as "real" development. Is LISP used much
> in the commercial world? And what fields is it used in? If there are some
> reasonable prospects, I'll invest the time to learn this tool that appears
> to be very powerful but off the radar of most hiring managers.
I guess there ARE employers who care about lisp
although not all of them can give you a lisp-job.
However, since you need just ONE employer, SOME
who care might be enough. Another guess is that
an employer who DOES care about your interest in
lisp and sees it as an above-the-line skill is most
likely a very good employer.
And you CAN add less controversial line items to
your resume by using lisp. Since many programmers
not only get paid for their programming skills, but
also for their knowledge of a certain domain (mobile
phone billing, robotics, GUIs, chemical process
automation, whatever) you can develop or use
domain knowledge together with lisp. For example,
you could construct websites using lisp or write
a lispy macro-assembler for a widely-used microcontroller.
This extends not only your lisp-skills, but also your
domain knowledge and is probably fun, if you are inclined
to do such things.
An employer might not be interested in you having grokked
lisp, but in what you have done with it, i.e. the domain.
You could become a lispy point-of-sale system geek, or
a lispy VoIP-PABX-Web-Management geek or a lispy procurement
systems geek, infiltrate that particular industry and
subvert it into using lisp -- think about THAT!
DISCLAIMER: I'm an armchair-career consultant and don't
really know what I'm talking about.