A few weeks ago, I got a great new laptop on sale, installed Linux, and
installed my favorite Lisp tools. But the more sites I check out,
posts I read, and screenshots I view, it *seems* the majority of
lispers use Macs. Is this really the case?
And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
"Jonathon McKitrick" <···········@bigfoot.com> writes:
> A few weeks ago, I got a great new laptop on sale, installed Linux, and
> installed my favorite Lisp tools. But the more sites I check out,
> posts I read, and screenshots I view, it *seems* the majority of
> lispers use Macs. Is this really the case?
Quite a few lispers use mac, but the majority?
> And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
Linux is my main lisp platform - I use a linux workstation at work. But
I use a PowerBook on the road. I write cross-platform stuff with CAPI,
so I need both linux, Windows and Mac OS X anyway. I also have a linux
laptop - the main reason I use the PowerBook on the road is that I
never got suspend to work 100% on my linux laptop, and stuff like
using a bluetooth modem etc. also is easy to get to work on the mac
but sometimes a hassle on linux. I.e. the reasons I prefer the
PowerBook has nothing to do with lisp, really!
So: Don't worry - be happy with your linux laptop :-)
--
(espen)
From: Greg Menke
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <m3y81kazg4.fsf@athena.pienet>
Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
> "Jonathon McKitrick" <···········@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> > A few weeks ago, I got a great new laptop on sale, installed Linux, and
> > installed my favorite Lisp tools. But the more sites I check out,
> > posts I read, and screenshots I view, it *seems* the majority of
> > lispers use Macs. Is this really the case?
>
> Quite a few lispers use mac, but the majority?
>
> > And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
>
> Linux is my main lisp platform - I use a linux workstation at work. But
> I use a PowerBook on the road. I write cross-platform stuff with CAPI,
> so I need both linux, Windows and Mac OS X anyway. I also have a linux
> laptop - the main reason I use the PowerBook on the road is that I
> never got suspend to work 100% on my linux laptop, and stuff like
> using a bluetooth modem etc. also is easy to get to work on the mac
> but sometimes a hassle on linux. I.e. the reasons I prefer the
> PowerBook has nothing to do with lisp, really!
I use Linux & Lispworks for anything big, CLISP or CMUCL on anything
that will run it (Solaris, Windows, non x86 Linux). I quite like Apple
hardware, delete OS X and put on Linux and it makes a nice machine. ;)
Greg
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <m1irsn2a9q.fsf@vestre.net>
Greg Menke <·············@toadmail.com> writes:
> that will run it (Solaris, Windows, non x86 Linux). I quite like Apple
> hardware, delete OS X and put on Linux and it makes a nice machine. ;)
Bah. OS X and linux each has its strengths. And you can run Apples X with
a standard window manager if you like.
(Besides, I assume that x86 linux binary compatibility glue will pop
up now that macs use intel, like on OpenBSD or FreeBSD. Then you can
really have both worlds at once).
--
(espen)
Espen Vestre wrote:
> "Jonathon McKitrick" <···········@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
>
>>A few weeks ago, I got a great new laptop on sale, installed Linux, and
>>installed my favorite Lisp tools. But the more sites I check out,
>>posts I read, and screenshots I view, it *seems* the majority of
>>lispers use Macs. Is this really the case?
>
>
> Quite a few lispers use mac, but the majority?
Based on the sea of 17" PowerBooks I have seen at the last two ILC's... <g>
Well, Edi says 12%, Mac claims 4%, so Lispniks are positively saturated
with PowerBooks.
And now having a 20" inch Dell flat panel side-by-side with a 17" Apple
flat panel, wow the Apple is easier on my fading eyes. I def recommend a
Mac (and extended AppleCare, since they seem to suck at QA these days).
>
>
>>And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
iBook? Trying to save money so you can buy a real Lisp?
:)
kt
Kenny Tilton <·············@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Apple flat panel, wow the Apple is easier on my fading eyes. I def
> recommend a Mac (and extended AppleCare, since they seem to suck at QA
Even John McCarthy himself took your recommendation :)
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
The Common Lisp Directory: http://www.cl-user.net
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <u8xtkm6yv.fsf@agharta.de>
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:21:00 +0100, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> wrote:
> Even John McCarthy himself took your recommendation :)
"I happily use a Macintosh. It's not been equalled for ease of use,
and I want my computer to be a tool, not a challenge."
Fred Brooks
<http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/12/12/8363107/index.htm>
So, yeah, Macs seem to be great for girls, very old guys, and
sissies... :)
Edi (ex-Mac user)
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <42q2oqF1jo4d8U1@individual.net>
Edi Weitz wrote:
> So, yeah, Macs seem to be great for girls, very old guys, and
> sissies... :)
It's just that after a while on Windows 98 and XP, on Linux, and on
NetBSD, some people get tired of having to micromanage their computer
and its problems/features. A friend of mine complains that on his Mac,
he doesn't spend any time compiling software, anymore. To me that's
just part of having grown up.
> Edi (ex-Mac user)
Ulli, relatively short-time Windows luser, longer time Unixer, now Mac user.
--
the bottom line is that a JavaSchool that won't teach C and won't teach
Scheme is not really teaching computer science, either. -- Joel Spolsky
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <u4q48m659.fsf@agharta.de>
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:28:08 +0100, Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
> It's just that after a while on Windows 98 and XP, on Linux, and on
> NetBSD, some people get tired of having to micromanage their
> computer and its problems/features.
Incidentally, I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who are
"normal" people (i.e. no nerds) and use Macs. Most of them visit me
on a regular basis and ask for help with computer-related problems.
Another data point: On the laptop that I'm using to post this message
XP was installed around October 2004 and has been in heavy use since -
this is my main development machine. It never crashed. My wife's
iBook, about the same age and used only one hour per day on average,
crashes routinely at least once a week.
Computers that manage themselves and always work like a charm don't
exist - this is just a clever marketing stunt of Apple.
'Nuff said - this is getting too OT for my taste.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <42q470F1kbea1U1@individual.net>
Edi Weitz wrote:
> Incidentally, I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who are
> "normal" people (i.e. no nerds) and use Macs. Most of them visit me
> on a regular basis and ask for help with computer-related problems.
I know only CS people who use Macs, except in the USA, and they seem to
do fine.
> Another data point: On the laptop that I'm using to post this message
> XP was installed around October 2004 and has been in heavy use since -
> this is my main development machine. It never crashed. My wife's
> iBook, about the same age and used only one hour per day on average,
> crashes routinely at least once a week.
To be fair, my XP experience was also very, very stable, but I still
prefer X11 window managers or the Mac in usability terms. I only had
two Mac crashes so far (plus some not-wakeups), though (since december '03).
> Computers that manage themselves and always work like a charm don't
> exist - this is just a clever marketing stunt of Apple.
>
> 'Nuff said - this is getting too OT for my taste.
Yep.
--
the bottom line is that a JavaSchool that won't teach C and won't teach
Scheme is not really teaching computer science, either. -- Joel Spolsky
Edi Weitz wrote:
> Another data point: On the laptop that I'm using to post this message
> XP was installed around October 2004 and has been in heavy use since -
> this is my main development machine. It never crashed. My wife's
> iBook, about the same age and used only one hour per day on average,
> crashes routinely at least once a week.
That must be due to bad software. I use my ibook (800 MHz, 640 MB RAM)
on a regular basis. I use it for numerical simulations all the time. I
am used to surf in the internet (installing software, etc.) when some
simulations (based on Bigloo) run for hours in the background; at the
same time I am logged into the local network and the Suns. In my whole
life my ibook has never crashed. I happen to have it run for weeks
(even when transporting it home in sleep mode).
I cannot understand why Lispers want to work on something inferior ala
Windows. Windows is no help for mankind.
Sir Francis Drake
On 2006-01-14 06:03:03 -0500, "F�rster vom Silberwald"
<··········@hotmail.com> said:
> In my whole
> life my ibook has never crashed. I happen to have it run for weeks
> (even when transporting it home in sleep mode).
Naturally this will vary from one user to another, but here's another
purely anecdotal, single data point. My daughter had an iBook through
much of high shool. When she went to college a couple of years ago I
got her a new 12" powerbook and gave the iBook to my mother.
My mother is like many people of her generation - basically no clue of
how a computer works, sort of conceives of it as a typewriter with a
flatscreen TV attached. This iBook has 6 accounts on it because
everybody who visits her - children, grandchildren - wants an account.
All of these people, with the exception of my daughter, are normally
Windows users so they certainly don't have any power user knowledge of
a Mac. They use it for everything - games, ebay auctions, word
processing, java programming - I even use it for lisp ocasionally when
I'm there. In addition my mom uses it every day for email, word
processing, photo printing, and online shopping, all while commuting
back and forth with it between her apartment in NYC and her house in
western MA.
Just after Christmas I had my mom bring the iBook to my house with her
so I could throw Tiger and the latest security updates onto it. When I
went to restart the computer to begin the install I got a warning that
another user was logged in - turns out one of my nieces was still
logged in from when she had last visited my mom - in *August*. I asked
my mom if she usually shut down the computer at night - "Oh, I just
close the lid - doesn't that turn it off?" I checked uptime - this 3
1/2 year old iBook had been up for over 270 days.
Again, this is just one iBook, but in my experience Apple laptops are
pretty well behaved even if you use them pretty cluelessly.
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <uu0c6hm4p.fsf@agharta.de>
On 14 Jan 2006 03:03:03 -0800, "F�rster vom Silberwald" <··········@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Edi Weitz wrote:
>
>> My wife's iBook, about the same age and used only one hour per day
>> on average, crashes routinely at least once a week.
>
> That must be due to bad software.
Sure, it's always because of bad software. Computers without software
don't make much sense, though.
> Windows is no help for mankind.
Thanks, I usually try to avoid religious discussions. It's a waste of
time.
Cheers,
Edi.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> iBook? Trying to save money so you can buy a real Lisp?
they are not bad actually (if you don't mind fading keyboard...);
when I was shopping for a laptop, I wanted a unix based
system, w/ hassle-free wifi, and not spend more than a thousand
bucks; I did look into a Linux based one, but hesitated a bit
because there were at the time some unresolved issues -- things I
didn't know how to resolve, apparently not an issue for you --
e.g., the suspend feature and wifi; there were a couple of
laptops available with Linux installed that would have saved me
the trouble -- Dell for instance -- but quite a bit pricey;
anyway, when I actually got to play with an iBook, I was sold:
it hd everything I wanted -- once I installed fink and X window --
at a price that was ok for me, and hassle free (call me lazy if
you must);
--Sylvain
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <42rta2F1im0loU1@individual.net>
Sylvain wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>> iBook? Trying to save money so you can buy a real Lisp?
>
> they are not bad actually (if you don't mind fading keyboard...);
They're good, but the display sucks. Apple claims that the new
Intel-Powerbook has a much brighter screen; who knows, maybe they'll
upgrade the iBooks too.
--
the bottom line is that a JavaSchool that won't teach C and won't teach
Scheme is not really teaching computer science, either. -- Joel Spolsky
On 2006-01-13, Kenny Tilton <·············@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> > Quite a few lispers use mac, but the majority?
>
> Based on the sea of 17" PowerBooks I have seen at the last two ILC's... <g>
>
> Well, Edi says 12%, Mac claims 4%, so Lispniks are positively saturated
> with PowerBooks.
>
> And now having a 20" inch Dell flat panel side-by-side with a 17" Apple
> flat panel, wow the Apple is easier on my fading eyes. I def recommend a
> Mac (and extended AppleCare, since they seem to suck at QA these days).
>
> >>And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
>
> iBook? Trying to save money so you can buy a real Lisp?
I was a longtime FreeBSD user but recently switched over to the Mac
side. I picked up an iMac for the family and got an iBook for myself. I'm
of the opinion that portable computers should be, uh, portable. So I
skipped the 17" PowerBook "surfboard" and went with the 12" iBook. I did
max out the memory and hard drive though.
I've been very happy with it so far and am typing on it right now. I spend
less time keeping things working and more time actually using my
computer. Having clisp, sbcl, cmucl, openmcl, and LispWorks PE with me
wherever I go is also nice.
I agree with Kenny on the AppleCare comment though. I've had no problems
with mine but judging from the relevant message boards Apple's QA is
suffering a bit lately.
Michael
In article <······················@yahoo.com>,
Michael Price <·······@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > iBook? Trying to save money so you can buy a real Lisp?
>
> I was a longtime FreeBSD user but recently switched over to the Mac
> side. I picked up an iMac for the family and got an iBook for myself. I'm
> of the opinion that portable computers should be, uh, portable. So I
> skipped the 17" PowerBook "surfboard" and went with the 12" iBook.
I had a chance last month to pick up a two year old 1 GHz 1 GB/60 GB 17"
PowerBook for about the same price as a new 1.33 GHz 12" iBook with the
same amount of memory and disk would be. I didn't think I *really*
needed it but I decided to pension off my 266 MHz Wallstreet PowerBook
which I've had since 1998.
It's half a kg lighter than my Wallstreet (14" screen), only
fractionally wider, and still fits in my motorcycle panniers (in a
padded laptop bag, of course). So while it's certainly less portable
than an iBook it seems to be portable *enough*, and certainly far more
so than my Dual 2.0 G5 tower with 20" LCD! And the 65% more pixels than
the iBook or Wallstreet probably works out close to double the space
usable for content by the time you take off the menu bar, dock, and
window borders. It sure feels like it.
> I agree with Kenny on the AppleCare comment though. I've had no problems
> with mine but judging from the relevant message boards Apple's QA is
> suffering a bit lately.
My local Apple developer group had an informal poll on this recently.
We think those reliability figures are ... perhaps correct, but easily
influenced by personal behaviour. Most of us have had PowerBooks since
the early 90's (PowerBook 100, Duo 230, Wallstreet, and now Al-17" for
me) and out of ten people only two have had repairs required in that
time.
Yeah, laptop computers are delicate technology and if you abuse them you
can easily kill them. But it's not *that* hard to treat them reasonably
well and if you do then they don't break. I mean .. all of mine have
spent countless hours bouncing around in motorcycle lugagge, and they've
been fine...
But if you don't think you can take the necessary minor level of care
then the AppleCare insurance may well be worth it.
--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------
>>>And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
>
> iBook? Trying to save money so you can buy a real Lisp?
>
> :)
The statistical results I heard most recently were that the best Mac
laptops, reliability-wise, were the 12" iBooks.
The larger ones, whether in iBook form or PowerBook form, put more
stress on the hinge, and they have had more troubles at that point.
I find myself most tempted by the 12" iBook, and not simply because
it's the cheapest one...
--
output = reverse("moc.liamg" ·@" "enworbbc")
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/spreadsheets.html
Professor Marlin's Rule:
If you have an open book test, you will forget your book.
If you have a take home test, you will forget where you live.
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
>>>>And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
>>
>> iBook? Trying to save money so you can buy a real Lisp?
>>
>> :)
>
> The statistical results I heard most recently were that the best Mac
> laptops, reliability-wise, were the 12" iBooks.
>
> The larger ones, whether in iBook form or PowerBook form, put more
> stress on the hinge, and they have had more troubles at that point.
Well, last year they changed the main board of my iBook 12" because it
was from the serie with the problem with the video chip. So far so
good. But it breaks down once again this year with the same
symptomes. For what I see, they've not solved the problem: they've
got boards that last 13 months and they just swap them without
improving the quality.
> I find myself most tempted by the 12" iBook, and not simply because
> it's the cheapest one...
Caveat Emptor.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
ADVISORY: There is an extremely small but nonzero chance that,
through a process known as "tunneling," this product may
spontaneously disappear from its present location and reappear at
any random place in the universe, including your neighbor's
domicile. The manufacturer will not be responsible for any damages
or inconveniences that may result.
Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> Well, last year they changed the main board of my iBook 12" because it
> was from the serie with the problem with the video chip. So far so
> good. But it breaks down once again this year with the same
> symptomes. For what I see, they've not solved the problem: they've
> got boards that last 13 months and they just swap them without
> improving the quality.
My son had one of those (a G3/900) and after two swaps and a lot of
trouble (they were out of boards, so his machine was in repair for
several weeks), he got an iBook G4 from Apple.
--
(espen)
Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>
>> Well, last year they changed the main board of my iBook 12" because it
>> was from the serie with the problem with the video chip. So far so
>> good. But it breaks down once again this year with the same
>> symptomes. For what I see, they've not solved the problem: they've
>> got boards that last 13 months and they just swap them without
>> improving the quality.
>
> My son had one of those (a G3/900) and after two swaps and a lot of
> trouble (they were out of boards, so his machine was in repair for
> several weeks), he got an iBook G4 from Apple.
Let's pray they'll be as generous with me :-)
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we. -- Georges W. Bush
>From what I hear, you can use VMWare to run OS X for x86. This way, you
got all 3 major platforms covered.
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <uek3cmc3i.fsf@agharta.de>
On 13 Jan 2006 05:36:12 -0800, "Jonathon McKitrick" <···········@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> A few weeks ago, I got a great new laptop on sale, installed Linux,
> and installed my favorite Lisp tools. But the more sites I check
> out, posts I read, and screenshots I view, it *seems* the majority
> of lispers use Macs. Is this really the case?
I don't think so.
FWIW, I just grepped through my log files for the last couple of
months and filtered out the requests for the three most popular
Lisp-related pages on my server. This is certainly skewed in many
ways (and it completely ignores other operating systems like FreeBSD
or Solaris) but it might give a rough estimate.
(The log files from common-lisp.net would be more interesting.)
Win Mac Linux Sum
GET /cl-ppcre/ 14560 1934 4455 20949
% 70 9 21
GET /asdf-install/ 10646 2390 3812 16848
% 63 14 23
GET /tbnl/ 12241 2251 4245 18737
% 65 12 23
Sum 37447 6575 12512 56534
% 66 12 22
Twelve percent is probably more than the usual market share for Macs
but I wouldn't say it's the majority. Maybe the Mac guys are just
more vocal...
> And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
If you're looking for a choice of "free" (in the religious sense of
the world) Lisp implementations and libraries that work fine with
them, then you probably shouldn't use Windows. Both OS X and Linux
seem to be fine for this.
Given the current transition to Intel chips, it might be a good idea
to wait a couple of months before you buy an Intel Mac for Lisp. Lisp
implementations most likely need more than a simple re-compile to be
ready for the new processors, and my guess is that "Rosetta" won't
help much either.
Cheers,
Edi.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: Should I have bought an iBook for Lisp instead?
Date:
Message-ID: <42q24rF1kafv4U1@individual.net>
Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> A few weeks ago, I got a great new laptop on sale, installed Linux, and
> installed my favorite Lisp tools. But the more sites I check out,
> posts I read, and screenshots I view, it *seems* the majority of
> lispers use Macs. Is this really the case?
Well, more than the usual market share Macs have among "common" people.
> And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
No, why? If you like Linux, that's perfectly ok, right?
It's just in general that the Unix philosophy and the Lisp mentality are
opposed to some degree (read "Worse is better" or the Unix-Haters'
Handbook on this one).
Unlike other areas (such as Python or C hackers (not C++, many of them
use Windows), or followers of other open-source languages), Lisp people
aren't Unix lovers all over. Most seem to prefer Windows or Macs.
Some/many (not sure) use commercial Lisp implementations, too.
--
the bottom line is that a JavaSchool that won't teach C and won't teach
Scheme is not really teaching computer science, either. -- Joel Spolsky
On 2006-01-13 13:36:12 +0000, "Jonathon McKitrick"
<···········@bigfoot.com> said:
> A few weeks ago, I got a great new laptop on sale, installed Linux, and
> installed my favorite Lisp tools. But the more sites I check out,
> posts I read, and screenshots I view, it *seems* the majority of
> lispers use Macs. Is this really the case?
Whether it is the case or not, why does it matter to you?
Is your Linux laptop up to YOUR expectations? If yes, stay
with it, if not seek alternatives (Mac or otherwise) but the
very fact that you're *seeing* Mac screen-shots doesn't tell
you anything about how YOU would feel with a Mac.
> And the real question: should I have bought an iBook instead?
What does it matter what OTHER people are using? YOU are
spending the hours in front of your laptop. THEY are spending
the hours in front of THEIRS.
If you decide which laptop to use based on popularity,
you should probably drop Common Lisp instantly :)
--
JFB (Happily using a PowerBook because that is right *for me*,
as it has been right *for me* to stay in the Mac world
for the past 22 years, whatever "trend du jour" say the
Macs are worth)