Hello,
I am a prospective student researching the computer science programs
taught at universities in the U.S. What concerns me is the perceived
trend of "watered down" comp. sci. programs that teach what is really
software engineering, or teach most classes in the flavor-of-the-year
popular languages rather than teaching the real fundamenals and the
best languages in which to learn them. (see
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html)
Some schools, notably the best of the best (Stanford, CMU, MIT, etc.)
clearly are teaching Real Computer Science. But picking a dream school
or even a list of dream schools doesn't make attending one a reality,
especially not for a high-school dropout trying to re-enter the good
graces of the academic powers-that-be via a community college. So I'm
led to consider schools that aren't on the top-10 list, and that's
where things get confusing.
I'd like some help from people who have been through CS programs in the
kind of schools I'm talking about. Which schools have programs that
base their instruction around elements such as lambda calculus and
(semi-)functional languages? Which ones should I stay away from (e.g.
schools that teach OOPS before algorithms)?
It may be true that knowing Java like the back of my hand will get me a
job, but the education itself is the real reason I'm going back to
school, and if I enrolled in a university to find out algorithms are an
afterthought and the lambda calculus is left out of the curriculum
because it's "too hard" and it won't help someone land a job, I would
feel cheated for the tuition.
Many thanks for all your help,
Aaron Wyatt
That you've gotten this far on your own is admirable, so I suggest
contacting those schools' CS programs directly, and asking them the
exact same question. At the least they should know what other schools
in the country use their curriculum (MIT's Structure & Interpretation
of Computer Programs, by Sussman and Abelson). At best they may
encourage you to apply anyway, and who knows where that could lead.
Also, I'm sure you're aware but MIT makes all of their CS coursework,
including lecture videos, full text of SICP, and syllabus available at
OpenCourseWare (http://ocw.mit.edu) and MIT World
(http://mitworld.mit.edu/).
> But picking a dream school
> or even a list of dream schools doesn't make attending one a reality,
> especially not for a high-school dropout trying to re-enter the good
> graces of the academic powers-that-be via a community college. So I'm
> led to consider schools that aren't on the top-10 list, and that's
> where things get confusing.
While I wasn't a high school drop-out, my unweighted gpa in highschool
tended towards a 2.5, so I'm in a similar boat. However...
After going to a community college for a couple of years in California,
provided you take the right courses, you can then apply to UC Berkeley
(both a public school and in the top 5 national for computer science)
as a transfer student. Providing that you complete IGETC (general
education transfer credits), Berkeley doesn't even /look/ at your high
school gpa. To decide whether they want to let you in, they look at
your community college gpa and the number of required technical courses
you have taken that prepare you for the cs major (e.g.: Calculus I and
II, Discrete Math, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, Data
Structures), and of course the requisite essays (although from what I
understand, essays are only used in borderline cases).
Actually, the above process just gets you into the university. In order
to get into the cs major, you must take a semester's worth of technical
classes after being accepted, and get certain grades in them, where
"certain grades" is dependent on how many spots are available in the cs
major and how many folks are applying.
Granted, it's not the easiest process in the world, but, to be quite
blunt -- it hasn't been that difficult either. But I'm not accepted
yet, so I don't know - I'll know in two months.
I know others before me have gotten in with lesser technical grades
than I have through the same route, but I've also heard that others who
have 4.0s (as I do) can get rejected for whatever reason, even if the
requisite technical courses are completed. The important part though
isn't that "on occasion someone gets rejected who did everything by the
book," but "It's quite possible to go to a community college and then
transfer to a school with a nationally-renowned cs program." And not
just Berkeley. Some others that go to my cc have transferred into cs at
Stanford. Don't give up on it, unless you really want to give up on it.
From: Randy
Subject: Re: Seeking undergrad schools that teach "Real CS"
Date:
Message-ID: <drrhap$c6a$1@joe.rice.edu>
From what I've seen the schools that teach CS1 (first core course in CS)
using a functional language are few and almost always private schools.
State universities tend toward C++ or Java, partly because their more
conventional implementation help introduce students to topics in data
structures earlier and partly because most CS students want to learn
concrete skills (marketable languages) sooner than later.
That said, I believe there is an ACM report that's published at regular
intervals that indicates which schools use which languages for CS1. You
might find what you seek by starting there.
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=209849.209853
You also might explore which schools teach courses on programming
language theory. Those that don't probably don't teach much else in the
way of abstract/theoretical CS either.
One way to do this is to do web searches for the names of oft-used PL
semantics textbooks. The university web sites for courses that use
those books should show up in the results. Some examples:
Types and Programming Languages, Pierce
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262162091/ref=pd_sim_b_4/002-5996224-1232841?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
Formal Semantics, Winskel
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262731037/ref=pd_sbs_b_2/002-5996224-1232841?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
Foundations for Programming Languages, Mitchell
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262133210/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-5996224-1232841?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
And perhaps:
Advanced Topics in Types and Programming Languages, Pierce
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262162288/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-5996224-1232841?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming, Van Roy
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262220695/ref=pd_sim_b_3/002-5996224-1232841?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
Programming Language Pragmatics, Scott
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0126339511/qid=1138837363/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-5996224-1232841?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
Randy
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am a prospective student researching the computer science programs
> taught at universities in the U.S. What concerns me is the perceived
> trend of "watered down" comp. sci. programs that teach what is really
> software engineering, or teach most classes in the flavor-of-the-year
> popular languages rather than teaching the real fundamenals and the
> best languages in which to learn them. (see
> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html)
>
> Some schools, notably the best of the best (Stanford, CMU, MIT, etc.)
> clearly are teaching Real Computer Science. But picking a dream school
> or even a list of dream schools doesn't make attending one a reality,
> especially not for a high-school dropout trying to re-enter the good
> graces of the academic powers-that-be via a community college. So I'm
> led to consider schools that aren't on the top-10 list, and that's
> where things get confusing.
>
> I'd like some help from people who have been through CS programs in the
> kind of schools I'm talking about. Which schools have programs that
> base their instruction around elements such as lambda calculus and
> (semi-)functional languages? Which ones should I stay away from (e.g.
> schools that teach OOPS before algorithms)?
>
> It may be true that knowing Java like the back of my hand will get me a
> job, but the education itself is the real reason I'm going back to
> school, and if I enrolled in a university to find out algorithms are an
> afterthought and the lambda calculus is left out of the curriculum
> because it's "too hard" and it won't help someone land a job, I would
> feel cheated for the tuition.
>
> Many thanks for all your help,
>
> Aaron Wyatt
>
--
Randy Crawford http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~rand rand AT rice DOT edu
"Dice play god with the world." -- Anon
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Some schools, notably the best of the best (Stanford, CMU, MIT, etc.)
> clearly are teaching Real Computer Science. But picking a dream school
> or even a list of dream schools doesn't make attending one a reality,
> especially not for a high-school dropout trying to re-enter the good
> graces of the academic powers-that-be via a community college. So I'm
> led to consider schools that aren't on the top-10 list, and that's
> where things get confusing.
If you have a good enough academic record in the community college and
can show that you've been doing worthwhile (preferably educational)
things on your own time, I think you can get into a darned decent
school. Especially given that you haven't even been to college and you
know what functional programming and the lambda calculus are. Never set
the bar too low!
Mazel tov from a high-school homeschooler!
Eli Gottlieb <···········@gmail.com> writes:
> ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> > Some schools, notably the best of the best (Stanford, CMU, MIT, etc.)
> > clearly are teaching Real Computer Science. But picking a dream school
> > or even a list of dream schools doesn't make attending one a reality,
> > especially not for a high-school dropout trying to re-enter the good
> > graces of the academic powers-that-be via a community college. So I'm
> > led to consider schools that aren't on the top-10 list, and that's
> > where things get confusing.
>
> If you have a good enough academic record in the community college and
> can show that you've been doing worthwhile (preferably educational)
> things on your own time, I think you can get into a darned decent
> school. Especially given that you haven't even been to college and
> you know what functional programming and the lambda calculus are.
> Never set the bar too low!
>
> Mazel tov from a high-school homeschooler!
I agree with Eli that Aaron is showing great promise and initiative
and should get into "a darned decent school." However, I also agree
quite strongly with Aaron that he shouldn't limit himself to just
applying to the top few big name schools. Due to their name
recognition, they get a really overwhelming number of qualified
applicants from all over the world, such that they can't possibly hope
wth the information they have available to make fine enough
distinctions to select the most worthy ones -- it is necessarily a
crap shoot. There are plenty of schools that would meet the standard
of "darned decent" without being nearly so famous. I like the
strategy of trying to get into MIT but keeping some less-famous darned
decent school in reserve. (I can plug MIT as a satisfied graduate. I
won't name any names of less-famous darned decent schools, because
there I would get into conflict of interest.)
I'd say you also should be considering other issues, like where you
might want to spend four years of your life and what kind of
educational context you want to be in. I am surrounded by people who
thought spending four years in a small town in Minnesota (much like
Lake Wobegon) was a good idea, and who find the liberal arts
attractive -- but I've heard that there are plenty of people with
other tastes in weather, geography, and education.
Best wishes. -max
From: Thomas A. Russ
Subject: Re: Seeking undergrad schools that teach "Real CS"
Date:
Message-ID: <ymi8xstpur2.fsf@sevak.isi.edu>
Max Hailperin <···@gustavus.edu> writes:
> (I can plug MIT as a satisfied graduate. I
> won't name any names of less-famous darned decent schools, because
> there I would get into conflict of interest.)
OK, I'll do it for you :)
Weren't you at one time teaching a SICP-based course at your school?
I seem to recall that.
-Tom.
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute
a.k.a. Opa
···@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) writes:
> Max Hailperin <···@gustavus.edu> writes:
>
> > (I can plug MIT as a satisfied graduate. I
> > won't name any names of less-famous darned decent schools, because
> > there I would get into conflict of interest.)
>
> OK, I'll do it for you :)
>
> Weren't you at one time teaching a SICP-based course at your school?
> I seem to recall that.
>
> -Tom.
Yes, and depending on how you define "SICP-based," we may still be
teaching a SICP-based course here at Gustavus Adolphus College. Back
in the early 1990s, we unquestionably were doing so, in that we were
literally using SICP itself as the text. Then we started
supplementing it with more and more notes of our own, and eventually
that morphed into our own textbook, Concrete Abstractions. We still
are teaching out of Concrete Abstractions today, and anyone familiar
with the two books would say that it is still very much SICP-based.
(We explicitly acknowledge our enormous debt to SICP.) Anyone who
wants to make the comparison can readily do so -- both are available
online. -max
I would like to second this advice. The difference between the top 10
in CS and the rest of the top 50 (say) is partly name recognition,
partly breadth of coverage - the top 10 have world-class people in most
of CS, the others may have world-class people in half of it (and
different halves).
Also, if graduate school is a possibility, look at the faculty of your
undergraduate possibilities, and see where *they* went to school. A
recommendation from a former student can carry a lot of weight.
- Bob
[Follow-ups restricted to c.l.scheme.]
> There are plenty of schools that would meet the standard
> of "darned decent" without being nearly so famous. I like the
> strategy of trying to get into MIT but keeping some less-famous darned
> decent school in reserve. (I can plug MIT as a satisfied graduate. I
> won't name any names of less-famous darned decent schools, because
> there I would get into conflict of interest.)
Then I'm happy to say that you should give serious consideration to
schools like Grinnell and Gustavus Adolphus: they are less famous,
darned decent, and willing to buck the trends.
Shriram
I went to UC Santa Cruz and they taught me "real computer science". I
got tired of being a poor student so I went into industry after getting
my bachelors. Consequently, my daily work consists almost entirely of
"software engineering" and my "comp sci" education is of little obvious
value to the work I do.
I got lamba calculus of the wazoo in my "Denotational Semantics" class
and the professor (Mr. Kolaitis
http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/people/faculty/kolaitis.html) was awesome! He
would walk into the class and start talking and writing non-stop,
usually running a few minutes over! The man knows his stuff and was on
a mission to teach his syllabus, not wax philosphical or tell stupid
anecdotes. While he was my favorite, I had a lot of teachers like that
at UCSC. Incidentally, the Denotational Semantics class included a
scheme programming project (in addition to tons of math homework on the
traditional dead tree medium).
While UCSC is certainly not a top C.S. school, they have a lot of good
professors that will teach you as much as you want if you are
motivated. If you want to take a sequence that emphasizes theory you
can. If you want to take a sequence of courses that emphasizes
practical engineering you can do that too.
Of course Berkeley is a top school but I suspect you would find good
C.S. programs at many of the other UCs (UC San Diego comes to mind).
Cheers,
--jfc
"funkyj" <······@gmail.com> writes:
> Of course Berkeley is a top school but I suspect you would find good
> C.S. programs at many of the other UCs (UC San Diego comes to mind).
I think the CS departments at all of the UC schools teach real CS.
The OP is intending to go back to school first through a CC, so he
should also look carefully at the cirriculum there, since he will be
spending 2 years studying what they think he should. Ask the CS
departments at one of the UCs about local CCs that provide a good
start for CS.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
funkyj wrote:
> I went to UC Santa Cruz and they taught me "real computer science". I
> got tired of being a poor student so I went into industry after getting
> my bachelors. Consequently, my daily work consists almost entirely of
> "software engineering" and my "comp sci" education is of little obvious
> value to the work I do.
I bet it is of `non-obvious' value.
I'm sure you are aware of the `software patterns' that you use, and I'm
sure you've seen code that `just looks wrong'. Many people learn the
good and bad code practices through rote and wouldn't be able to tell
you *why* the code looks wrong, or whether some pattern they had never
seen before was good or bad.
I think it would be obvious to you that any coding construct that you
used that needed five pages of denotational semantic equations to
describe is probably a *really bad idea*.
I would recommend asking in touch with people and the
state of things. Perhaps start with Richard Gabriel. Email him and
ask his opinion. He is well connected. Take a random walk
and see where you end up. You can reason out his email on his
main page.
http://www.dreamsongs.com/
http://www.dreamsongs.com/ArtOfLisp.html
There are other people you can try, like
John McCarthy
Guy Steele
Wade
Wade Humeniuk <··················@telus.net> writes:
>I would recommend asking in touch with people and the
>state of things. Perhaps start with Richard Gabriel. Email him and
>ask his opinion. He is well connected. Take a random walk
>and see where you end up. You can reason out his email on his
>main page.
>
>http://www.dreamsongs.com/
>http://www.dreamsongs.com/ArtOfLisp.html
>
>There are other people you can try, like
>John McCarthy
>Guy Steele
I don't generally reply to messages with so many newsgroups -- a bad
practice to begin with -- but this one needs a reply.
It really is not a good idea to email all the most famous people in your
field of interest and ask them a question like "where should I go to
school?" It's fair to ask these people questions, if you have a question
addressed to *one* person about something that *that person* wrote or said
or did. But they're not college advisors.
Hint: Try Googling "schools using Scheme" and see what you get. (Or
any other interesting language in place of Scheme, of course.)
Wade Humeniuk <··················@telus.net> writes:
>>I would recommend asking in touch with people and the
>>state of things. Perhaps start with Richard Gabriel. Email him and
>>ask his opinion. He is well connected. Take a random walk
I recommend first reading or skimming Dick's book Patterns of Software.
>>There are other people you can try, like
>>John McCarthy
John's been busy taking care of health problems. I emailed him a few
months back after he gave a neat talk (e.g., chess and DARPA aren't AI),
then I saw him before I took off on a Europe trip a month ago.
You will likely not get a response from him. I may swing by his office
today to see how he is doing.
In article <············@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>,
Brian Harvey <··@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>I don't generally reply to messages with so many newsgroups -- a bad
>practice to begin with -- but this one needs a reply.
>
>It really is not a good idea to email all the most famous people in your
>field of interest and ask them a question like "where should I go to
>school?" It's fair to ask these people questions, if you have a question
>addressed to *one* person about something that *that person* wrote or said
>or did. But they're not college advisors.
Yes, this is generally true.
But as Brian points out, it is fair to ask questions.
Especially, if you raise an intellectually simulating question to them.
Email tends to make this too easy. Many of these guys had a nice window
in the 80s when you could email them, but now many have secretaries who
handle correspondence (and you have to know them).
Paper correspondence is sometimes better.
I started paper corresponding with Marvin Minsky in 1968, a few years
before I had ARPAnet access. It had nothing to do with AI (more about
lasers). We have stayed in touch, been to meetings together (a favorite
photo is Marvin with Peter Honeyman next to Steve Robert's bicycle),
exchanged holiday cards, etc. I've even written an admissions req. for one
student for him. McCarthy, I know from Printers' Inc. a now closed book
store and rec.arts.books rab-fests, and we attend meetings for the
computer history museum and hackers. So sometimes if you write as nice,
i.e., interesting, paper letter, they will respond if they don't get too old.
Nothing can compare with having Stanford close. Well maybe having MIT close.
I have cut the followups down to the one education group, since
this had really gotten away from languages.
--
Aaron,
It has been my experience that even schools which run a "get rich
quick" curriculum tend to have at least one professor who hates this
new regime and teaches as many of the more interesting concepts as
possible, usually to nearly empty classes. One could argue that seeking
out a more pure CS education at a "java school" might net a better
education than going for a university that teaches pure cs.
Either way you will have some time in CC to work on your programming
knowledge. There is nothing keeping you from reading the book lists of
entry level classes at some of the better schools and getting a head
start.
I also would suggest not giving up on the top ten list. You have an
academic disadvantage at the moment, but you definitley are more
interesting than "I floated through HS with a 3.8". Beyond that if you
really bust your hump in CC and get seriously involved in programming
(and make sure all this dedication shows on your applications) you may
be more desirable than recent high school grads. Not saying you
shouldn't be realistic, but do not undervalue the advantages you have.
That said, you can get a good education anywhere, even outside of
school. One of the better programmers I know is almost entirely
self-taught. His reading list puts mine to shame, and I would guess
that the two are probably correlated somehow.
Just wondering. Since you dropped out of high school, are you sure that
you *want* to undergo the sometimes tedious process of a college education?
I'm only asking this because I myself have always been at odds with
school (especially mandatory, as it is in Germany) and always considered
it a waste of my time (I myself am only attending college, because in
Germany you basically don't get a job otherwise anymore; even so, I'll
probably have to move abroad).
Admitted, if I had gone to Yale or MIT I'd probably have been much
happier (you could call my current university a Java school, even though
it's not bad at all in non-java classes), but I don't think that at any
school in the world you'll have do deal with something different from
school drudgery. So be sure that you want to get *back* into school,
before you make that huge financial choice.
I personally like reading books, because it's much cheaper, because it
gets me education from the best professors on earth (if I choose the
right books), and because I can study at my own pace.
So if you're not going to school for a degree+job (and I don't think
there are many jobs in Functional Programming), then maybe you'd be
happy with home-studying.
That said, maybe my attitude towards institutionalized education is too
dark, influenced by my country. I've experienced American college life
for a year and liked it, and I'm sure, at a school with more focus on
technology it could be even more exciting.
--
Suffering from Gates-induced brain leakage...
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> So if you're not going to school for a degree+job (and I don't think
> there are many jobs in Functional Programming), then maybe you'd be
> happy with home-studying.
I agree with the caveat that College does make sense if you want to
become an academic (i.e. a professor) or get a job somewhere doing real
computer science (these jobs are few and far between -- e.g. 'Plan 9'
at Bell Labs or 'Singularity' and Microsoft) rather than software
engineering. Getting a PhD is a requirement for this career path.
Cheers,
--jfc
[ Print article using a 'typewriter' font (like Courier) 469 lines ]
"The Best Education in the World" 4,900 words
FBSR offered
------------
An article about a two-year encounter with
contemporary British higher education, by a
recent graduate of Middlesex University.
It paints a picture of the overworked,
demoralized state of academia, the long term
effects of the devaluation of degree courses due
to the privatization of national assets for
political short term gain, and the criminal mis-
management of original talent, all of which have
dire consequences for the future.
Also suggested is a deep nihilism which has
given rise to the above problems, and which
globally effects the last decades of the
twentieth century -- a historical consequence of
cultural reverberations induced by the decline
of the British Empire...
The Best Education in the World
-------------------------------
by Sandy Anderson
Hampstead, London
Tuesday 3 June 1997
Three years ago, I applied to complete my BSc in Computer Science at
Middlesex University. To my amazement, opening their reply letter, it
was not another rejection, but an invitation to have a preliminary
interview. The Computer Science department was up in Bounds Green,
North London, right next to the North Circular. I'd seen the building
before and remembered the days when I visited it when it was a true
polytechnic, at the start of the eighties. I used to work as a
programmer in nearby Southgate.
I arrived outside of Administrative Reception and, looking up around
me, remembered the resonant architecture of the place. With the piping,
ducting, and steel girders all exposed, it looked like the interior of a
brightly painted factory. My interview was during the holidays and
there were just a few people ambling purposefully down corridors and
across metal walkways crisscrossing the long central mall. Behind
Reception's glass enclosed alcove, I took a seat and waited around with
a dozen other would-be students. My interviewer strode up to me and as
I stood up, he was shaking my arm with both hands. He was a wonderful
15 minutes late. It seemed to go with the architecture.
Here was Dr. Antony Ayoola, an English-educated Nigerian in a
youngish middle age. He took Computer Graphics. He was a dignified,
well-rounded personality, easy and approachable. He had a wry laid-back
sparkle in his eyes and warmed to my affability and enthusiasm, but
warned me to keep an eye on it. I didn't pay much attention to this,
although it had been my downfall at my last polytechnic, three years
previously. And anyway, I'd been hearing this all my life. Little did
I know at the time, but he already sensed what was in store for me.
Winding through the factory-like corridors, the exuberantly chaotic open
plan machine shops, coming down one of the metal stairways, he asked me
what I thought of the place, and I said I liked it and that it had an
atmosphere like working backstage in a theatre. Amazingly, as we
arrived at the bottom of the clanking staircase, I knew he knew exactly
what I meant.
"Yes, well, term hasn't started yet, Sandy."
With a wry smile he said goodbye to me, mentioning leisurely that
they'd be writing about the formal interview quite soon.
The most exciting and educational day at Middlesex University was
the very first. It was in the week previous to teaching for the benefit
of all the new students. We were all going to get to know one another.
I remember we were in groups of fifteen or so. And we first met by
collecting around canteen tables with our staff leader. Ours was a
stocky northerner who'd obviously once come from an industry background.
He was sporting a white plastic lapel badge on his jacket. He was
quietly as bemused by the situation as we were, but he kept a straight
face. His label said in large blue felt-tip, "ERIC".
There was a small pile of these white lapel badges in the centre of
the table, several pens, and a thin sheaf of what turned out to be the
"Working Together" instructions. Now, if we'd been lucky enough to
recognize anyone from the long interminable enrollment queues the hour
previous, well we'd now be found chatting at that table like the best of
friends. I looked at this scenario repeating itself all around the
canteen; everyone exuding a kind of Breakfast Television chewing gum
friendliness, as if they'd done this many times. Deep down I knew there
would be trouble ahead.
On the cue of the Northerner Eric, who started us off by announcing
he was Eric, and this was his label, we each in turn had to put down our
polystyrene coffee cup and introduce ourselves as in the best
California-style group therapy. Eric's eyes watched bemused, as he saw
this dictate from management being executed in front of him.
Then I found myself having to write my name onto a little
rectangular strip of white card. Beyond the first two letters, my hand
just stopped writing. I put the pen down. My label said "Sa~". There
was no point pretending to myself -- some archangel had decided for me
-- and the only way through was going to be being myself. As the groups
adjourned, ours being told to meet after lunch in room G103, and feeling
all the weight of the years to come, I was silently screaming to myself:
"Oh, shii..iit!!!"
After the lunch break, in an odd-angled room in the corner of the
building, we collected in silence, tentative, all still chewing gum.
Illuminated by strip-lighting at the front of the classroom, on an
otherwise clean blackboard, it said in a small straight line, "x = Drop
You Dead Mr. Del Borgo". There was a huge flourish of an underline
underneath it. Chewing gum, smiling occasionally, and every so often
re-slouching our arms and legs, we waited for Eric and the start of
"Working Together".
Twenty minutes later he burst in and briefly apologized about the
computer timetable system breaking down, and he'd have to make this
short. We were to design a "sculpture" with any materials that were
around, using our initiative, discretion, creative whatnots, and
obtaining any permissions whenever necessary, that would embody what we
felt Middlesex University would be like to study in. We had until
lunchtime the next day to prepare our entry for the competition. The
dean of the science and engineering building would be awarding the
prizes in the mall after the exhibition that next afternoon.
Eric summed up and apologized for immediately having to leave us
again. The computer timetable schedule for the entire university --
which was his responsibility -- had malfunctioned the week previously,
and he made a joke for us about it being just as difficult and
unsettling for the staff at the start of a year. He left.
There was an unquiet silence. All realizing that we would for the
first time have to pay attention to these people around us, and have to
cooperate. The silence grew stronger as we listened to the scraping and
shuffling of tables in adjoining rooms. Mercifully, after an
interminable period of everyone being "cool", two Taiwanese girls broke
off a whispered conversation and turned to the room.
"What we do now, prease?"
At last we were able to launch ourselves into dynamic enthusiasm,
like the rest of the college.
. . . . .
It took the entire first term at the college for me to realize just how
different from the truth was my first impression, when being shown
around the place, strolling with Dr. Ayoola.
I discovered about two weeks into the course, that I was on the
wrong degree programme entirely. I was enrolled on a set course, but my
previous stint at another poly required that I do a modular degree. It
was here when I first, unequivocally slammed up against the colossal
wall of inertia. During the next four weeks, I was sent from one
person, one department, to the next, constantly being told of short-
circuits that would send me back to where I just came from. I got used
to walking down strange corridors, trying to talk to people's backs, and
then having to half-enter a doorway to hold a parrying conversation.
And got used to waiting around whole mornings and afternoons for the
next person in the chain. This waiting was extremely unpleasant as
people ignored me utterly, resenting the implication of my being. I
simply was not there. People would casually assume a relaxed cross-
legged stance to demonstrate this. And I also came to despise the
people who would switch on an electric fence of a smile and ask
beguilingly, "Can I help you?".
Worse was to meet someone who really could solve a sub-problem. It
would take days of being sent to see other people before they had no
excuse but to see me, and solve the sub-problem. When people asked why
I had been sent to the wrong person yet again, I began to give the
reply, "It's like Kafka's 'The Trial'."
No one knew where anyone was, or where their timetable could be
found. Departmental secretaries did not seem to exist -- I was never
sure which department I was talking to, and had the ever-present feeling
that people were just plain lying.
In the end, four weeks -- one month -- went by without me attending
any lectures at all. Finally, on a Friday I remember, I really lost my
temper with ... someone. This got me the reputation hereafter of being
a "nutter". But miraculously, this immediately sorted out the
administrative hiccup that afternoon. I then found myself spending
another two weeks ensuring I was on all the right modular degree courses
and that I had definitely officially been enrolled. Because of all my
to-ing and fro-ing, I got to know a lot of the academic staff in that
first term, and they were all lenient when making allowances for
starting into the lectures eight weeks after the start of term. But
then, to compound my silent horror, I discovered I had not really missed
anything at all.
The lectures, tutorials, workshops and whatever else, were without
exception, each a relentlessly arid process. In lectures, students
would meticulously copy the notes displayed by overhead projector. One
page slowly turned into another. And while the students were busy
writing down the notes, with occasional glances up at the screen, the
lecturer paraphrased and often just carefully repeated what was on the
screen. Ending his sentences with an occasional, "Mmm-OK?" he would
wait for his audience before moving on to the next set of sentences.
Occasionally, someone would punctuate the monotony by asking a question.
"Could you rewind the overhead a bit, please? We've missed the
top."
I kid you not.
And then I would boil with silent anger during interesting topics,
trying my best not to become engaged, knowing that to reveal knowledge
of, or an interest in the subject would be to invite a cold defensive
hostility from the lecturer and insidious sarcasm from the students.
There was an unspoken force in the university to never be seen
trying, never to be seen getting excited by anything other than the twin
idols, Sex and Money. And during the revision for exams I saw at first
hand that there was an active force of evil to not understand, even if
it meant failing.
In the run-up to my very last round of exams, trying to understand
Digital Neural Networks, it dawned on me that my revision group first
had to understand binary arithmetic. So, for the first time all
directly grasping that binary arithmetic really was at the bottom of
Digital Neural Nets, and all sensing that they'd collectively intuited
this independent of any lecture notes, the group grew suddenly nervous,
shrinking back from the abyss and eventually resorted to physically
dissipating for coffee, Coca-Cola, the toilet; anything that came to
mind. A tiny piece of learning had taken place, you see.
Understanding means communication. And escaping communication was
what lay behind absolutely everything. All the cross-legged gum-
chewing, deceitful smiles behind dark glasses, the ceaseless posing and
posturing, the talk that inevitably further obscured instead of
clarifying. The conformity was total. Everyone acted as if their life
was being recorded on video. You would see them chuckling, chewing gum,
in cross-legged stances at bus stops. They wanted to make it seem as if
they were living Pepsi-Max commercials.
There were two things these hordes of the living dead feared. One
was children under the age of five -- of whatever colour -- immune to
the electric fences. They'd occasionally be left by their parents,
who'd be talking somewhere in the mall, and naturally wander up and test
everyone's defences. The other, ever-present, was me.
I would have entire conversations using the phrases "What's your
problem?", "Take it easy", "Don't worry", and "It's OK". These were,
to the Gods, genuinely hilarious and would provoke rising waves of
defensive cackling which I would try to gently amplify to the max, man.
These scenes could sometimes last, to the humourless consternation of
everyone in the room, up to an electrifying twenty minutes. Towards the
end of successful missions, the insanity in the room would reach Marx
Brothers proportions. At those moments, a large shire carthorse rearing
up and neighing through the room would not have been out of place.
"Remember the Age of Gold?" I might say, as someone's coffee cup was
dropping to the floor. Their only defense was a retreat to the
staunchest inertia, no matter what it cost them.
Those two years at college were a continuous dodging around assorted
windup clockwork mechanisms that would all reliably emit the "WHAT-IS-
YOUR-PROBLEM?" response when bumped into. Answering back, "Your
question" prompts another round of meaningless Dalek responses. Or
another variation to ease the boredom, looking at my wristwatch, might
be "I'm not sure, I haven't got a watch." and so on. And how do you
recognize a Dalek? You kick them up the ass as hard as you like, and
they say, "It's OK. Take it easy." Along with attending droning
lectures and seminars, I would thus get through each day. Yes, indeedy.
Here were the fruits of the hollow promise of power through self-
knowledge: the exterminating self-absorption that had soured the
sixties, lay dormant in the backwash of the seventies, emerged more
virulent in the eighties until manifesting the full blown disease of the
nineties. Even as the globe's climate squirms, and the seas rise once
more.
University lecturers were now a completely demoralized and harried
lot. Higher education had systematically been broken down for the past
twenty years -- a vital part of the national asset-stripping operation.
By now they had found themselves each having to do the work of five or
six people and had had to adjust their outlook accordingly. They did
not feel that education was a real profession. Unfortunately, there
are no mental hospitals for entire countries: the university had once
been a healthy Polytechnic; those unique places where people learnt
through cooperative experience. The absolute backbone of technological
industries. As part of the long historical process of the nation's
asset-stripping, all the Polytechnics had recently been dressed up as
universities, complete with new names, and fancy prospectuses, and no
doubt all flying those tell-tale flags of infection known as a "charter
of service". A land fit for Chinese investment.
Middlesex "University" now found itself in the business of competing
with all the other "universities" for income. Politics aside, education
will always be more than a commodity, so it had tremendous cash-flow
problems which were most easily handled by regulating the influx of
thousands of first-year students, and then having to fail huge swathes
of the damn things a year or so later. We're dealing with people's
lives here, and the life of an industrial nation: the lucrative markets
were overseas, and Middlesex University (I'm not sure whether it's a PLC
or a limited company -- no, it can't be floating on the stock exchange,
so it's a limited company) fought vigorously to outsell its degrees,
attempting to undercut Southampton and the like, to places like Athens
in Greece, Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, Hong Kong, Africa, and anywhere and
everywhere else it could still ply its trade. The mass-marketed bulk
selling of degrees by British "universities" -- the best education in
the world -- has produced a situation analogous to the insane inflation
during the short brutish existence of the Weimar Republic. A degree now
from these places, and also, in case you're getting smug, Oxford or
Cambridge, is almost as worthless as a wheelbarrowful of Weimar
Reichmarks.
I have seen complete idiots, from whom you wouldn't buy a used car,
let alone a personal computer, with Nigerian, Greek, Chinese, or English
accents, who couldn't program a toilet to flush, obtaining a first-class
honours degree in Computer Science, which was my subject. After three
years they have the degree, but they still cannot program. They have
passed electronics, but do not understand the simplest circuit diagram
outside of the carefully crafted lectures. They have supposedly learnt
how to use the Laplace transform (a mathematical technique ubiquitous in
engineering), but cannot rearrange f = ma in terms of 'a' without pencil
and paper!! They know nothing. They have systematically copied,
cheated, parrot-learnt, lied, paid for, forged and damned themselves all
the way through their honours degree courses in complete collusion with
today's higher education systems. "University" is, for me, now a
meaningless word. And of course, you're treated as slightly sick if you
do not do all this. This corrosive attitude runs throughout the student
body, and all of the staff. It is simply part of the stagnating
atmosphere, and goes hand in hand with "What's your problem?"
The dreadful insane consequence is that those students who are
cursed with talent must perforce censor their originality and
creativity. The alternative is ostracism, depression, failure, nervous
breakdown, or worse. There was one brilliant student who, thanks to
this fucking system, was never allowed to become aware of his phenomenal
mathematical ability. His stunning project work was quietly either
unrecognized or more likely, unconsciously _not_ recognized. He scared
the shit out of every academic member of staff he encountered, but they
would never acknowledge this to themselves, least of all to him. He was
Nigerian born. No one knew how good he was, not even himself.
A sign of his genius is that right at the very end of his degree
study, after seven years of trying and retrying, with only two
pathetically easy, so-called "advanced" third-year assignments to hand
in, he got too depressed and just didn't turn up anymore. The
university, his lecturers, his "tutor" did not notice, and to say that
they couldn't give a shit would be to anthropomorphize a burnt-out shell
of a system.
Why would he get depressed?
I'll try and spell it out. I myself had a titanic struggle to hand
in my own final year project based on the new Java Internet programming
language that you may have recently heard about:
http://www.alma-services.abel.co.uk/jam/Project/jam_000.shtml
You see, a final year project is -- historically -- meant to be an
original piece of creative work, but is now done merely as an arid
finale for today's higher education systems. There's the rub.
At the end of my tether one night, towards the end of my titanic
struggle, I rang him up for support, expecting him to have finished six
months previously, and to give me the lowdown on which poodle hoops I
really had to jump through, and which ones I didn't have to bother with.
He was the one person who really did know about programming problems
and -- even though he didn't know Java -- could be relied upon to come
back with answers and workarounds that weren't just bullshit waffle.
Polytechnos.
Unfortunately, you see, there was no one in the university at the
time, neither staff nor student, who knew Java to the extent of talking
shop. And I had to tread very lightly with people who were unwise
enough to say they did. Here's an unambiguous glimpse into the nature
of my titanic struggle, towards the end of my degree. Daleks in action,
just after my last exam:
I'm by the tables in the mall, outside the bar, waiting for someone
else to finish their exam, and return a German dictionary of mine. I'm
sitting there, and I can't help overhearing a couple just next to me,
chatting. We're the only people around.
I catch the phrase "He's the one who knows Java."
I turn around, interrupting their life's video, and ask this guy who
this is, as I know Java too.
"Mind you're own business," he says.
I really wanted to find out who the hell this other Java person in
Middlesex University was, so I explain that I'm very interested in Java,
and doing a project in it.
"Please, tell me who this person is. I'd like to meet them!"
There's a silence.
"Someone I know." is all he would say.
I notice he's reading a book on HTML (Hypertext Markup Language).
"Is that a book on HTML?"
His hand comes up to rest on the book.
"Yes, actually. What's your problem?"
It is seven hundred pages long, three inches thick and has "HTML"
emblazoned in idiot red across the front cover. One might best find a
use for it in distracting a snarling pit-bull, or maybe to stun a stupid
Doberman. It is perfectly obvious that the poor idiot knows nothing
whatsoever about HTML. I can feel my lips beginning to quiver from yet
another confrontation. After a tense -- electric -- silence of some
three or four minutes the couple, noses in the air, nonchalantly get up
and leave. As I watch them walk off down the mall pretending they're on
the beach at Ipanema, it dawns on me that when I had overheard the
phrase "He's the one who knows Java", they were in fact talking about
me.
...And since all the students I came across were like this, no one
-- in their right mind -- would describe them as all clinically ill,
except with hindsight. I do so now.
Anyway, I was saying that I rang up my friend, hoping for support
and encouragement. Instead, I found that this genius had himself just
quietly packed it all in, or so he thought, and had been idling in a
state of quiet depression in his flat in depressing Ilford, in the
clapped out East End of London. Essex. Another statistic in the
government employment figures...
...He has since gone on, with my encouragement, to hand in his
assignments and project, five days extra work, and obtained -- wait for
it -- a measly third-class degree. Yet this black man is one of the
very few people who _can_ program to save his life, and often does not
use Laplace when he's already seen a trivially easy solution.
Listen up.
I am not going to waste any more columns entertaining you with
further "Sunday morning" breakfast vignettes. You cannot avoid
recognizing everything I'm saying. Just look out the window. This
situation is not insane. This situation is criminal.
Educare, to draw out. I have been a staunch supporter of the
Conservatives ever since I could vote. However, it has become
increasingly apparent to everyone that their agenda is just a masquerade
that only serves to further themselves and their ilk. At the cost of a
whole nation. The time is now, mateys, for us to finally awaken from
this catatonic mourning over any past greatness. This has nothing to do
with New Labour. We must take over the helm of this small offshore
European island, and so assume a twenty-first century stewardship of the
islands that truly befits our place in the modern geography of the world
-- luckily, we do not have the same arrogance as the French. If we do
not do this, you and I know we will sink without trace, oil fields,
ravens and all.
In other words, WAKE UP!!!
Sandy Anderson
Tue 3-Jun-97, Hampstead
http://www.alma-services.abel.co.uk/jam/Project/Education000.html
Sandy wrote:
> "The Best Education in the World" 4,900 words
How depressing.
Fortunately, not every college is that bad.
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: "The Best Education in the World" (by Sandy Anderson, Tue 3-Jun-1997)
Date:
Message-ID: <87d5i4j0ee.fsf@kafka.homenet>
"Joe Marshall" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> Sandy wrote:
> > "The Best Education in the World" 4,900 words
>
> How depressing.
>
> Fortunately, not every college is that bad.
The Times rates Middlesex as among the worst in the UK.
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:47:42 +0000, Sandy wrote:
> Three years ago, I applied to complete my BSc in Computer Science at
> Middlesex University.
Why?
I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but it doesn't surprise me very
much at all. When I was worrying about what to study after A-levels
(around 1996 I think), everyone knew that computer science wasn't a "real"
subject, for pretty much all of the reasons in your post.
I chose maths, at Nottingham University, and took as many modules as
possible in pure maths, rather than things like probability or statistics.
The course I ended up with was more like a study in an artistic subject.
Being creative and original wasn't just tolerated, it was *the* point. I
have very fond memories of the few times when I handed in homework and was
told (proudly, enthusiastically) by the experienced lecturer that he or
she had never seen this theorem proved in the particular the way I had
done it.
I taught myself enough computing in my spare time that it's now my day job.
I'd strongly recommend anyone considering a computer science degree to at
least consider mathematics instead.
Just my two cents...
Best wishes,
Bill.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: "The Best Education in the World" (by Sandy Anderson, Tue 3-Jun-1997)
Date:
Message-ID: <44gi18F1jdgvU1@individual.net>
William Bland wrote:
> I'd strongly recommend anyone considering a computer science degree to at
> least consider mathematics instead.
My decision was that math is the part that's *hard*, and I haven't yet
seen any "big" maths in CS, so it seems to me that even that part of the
curriculum was a "waste" of time to me (but then they sh/could have
taught all of undergrad CS in one year anyway).
All the CS people that don't know CS don't do so because of a lack of maths.
I highly respect math people, because they can do both hard maths and
easy CS. I wanted to learn everything in CS, so maths would have taken
up too much of my time. So it's again about opportunity costs.
--
Suffering from Gates-induced brain leakage...
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: "The Best Education in the World" (by Sandy Anderson, Tue 3-Jun-1997)
Date:
Message-ID: <44fb7nF1v6l6U1@individual.net>
Sandy wrote:
[...]
Wow.
> The dreadful insane consequence is that those students who are
> cursed with talent must perforce censor their originality and
> creativity. The alternative is ostracism, depression, failure, nervous
> breakdown, or worse.
Yes, sounds like school to me (high school, college, doesn't matter).
--
Suffering from Gates-induced brain leakage...
From: Ray Blaak
Subject: Re: "The Best Education in the World" (by Sandy Anderson, Tue 3-Jun-1997)
Date:
Message-ID: <ulkwpywvh.fsf@STRIPCAPStelus.net>
Sandy <············@alma-services.abel.co.uk> writes:
> An article about a two-year encounter with
> contemporary British higher education, by a
> recent graduate of Middlesex University.
This guy sounds really smart....and then really moronic.
Why in god's name did he stay so many years at the school? If it was really
such a suffocating environment he should have bailed as soon as he understood
that.
There are other schools.
Seems to me he had a need to run around and antagonize everyone, however
rightly they deserved it.
--
Cheers, The Rhythm is around me,
The Rhythm has control.
Ray Blaak The Rhythm is inside me,
········@STRIPCAPStelus.net The Rhythm has my soul.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: "The Best Education in the World" (by Sandy Anderson, Tue 3-Jun-1997)
Date:
Message-ID: <44ok7qF384urU1@individual.net>
Ray Blaak wrote:
> Sandy <············@alma-services.abel.co.uk> writes:
>> An article about a two-year encounter with
>> contemporary British higher education, by a
>> recent graduate of Middlesex University.
>
> This guy sounds really smart....and then really moronic.
>
> Why in god's name did he stay so many years at the school? If it was really
> such a suffocating environment he should have bailed as soon as he understood
> that.
Don't know about other countries, but in Germany a CS degree is the only
way to a halfway secure, well-paid computer job. Plus, if you happen to
be interested in CS, college *seems* like the obvious way to go.
> There are other schools.
But IME it's the school *system* that sucks, plus the general focus on
neither practical practice nor sound theory, but some mixture of general
annoyances. No matter what school you attend; I've been to three
universities (and visited two others); the US one was slightly better,
though also a lot easier than the two German ones. But overall it's a
lot of time for a tiny bit of education.
(In hindsight maybe I should have studied at T�bingen, where they also
teach Scheme, but I don't think the degree would have been much
different overall. There are good and bad professors, and I had my
share of really good ones; but still if they have to teach crap so
slowly that you assume that most students didn't make it through high
school to go there (and in math classes so fast that even
previously-excellent math students almost choke on the exercises, even
when they spend their whole friday on them), something is wrong.)
> Seems to me he had a need to run around and antagonize everyone, however
> rightly they deserved it.
Well, nobody had to read the text, but it was an answer to the OP
seeking info on education.
--
Suffering from Gates-induced brain leakage...
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: "The Best Education in the World" (by Sandy Anderson, Tue 3-Jun-1997)
Date:
Message-ID: <uy80o7ldn.fsf@agharta.de>
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:46:34 +0100, Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
> Don't know about other countries, but in Germany a CS degree is the
> only way to a halfway secure, well-paid computer job.
I personally know at least half a dozen people without a CS degree
here in Germany who have a halfway secure, well-paid computer job.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: "The Best Education in the World" (by Sandy Anderson, Tue 3-Jun-1997)
Date:
Message-ID: <44osatF34jksU1@individual.net>
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:46:34 +0100, Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
>
>> Don't know about other countries, but in Germany a CS degree is the
>> only way to a halfway secure, well-paid computer job.
>
> I personally know at least half a dozen people without a CS degree
> here in Germany who have a halfway secure, well-paid computer job.
I suppose they are a little older than me. In the Old Days there was
much more demand than supply, so it was easy to market yourself. Plus,
CS was considered obscure, so there were only those people in it that
were *able*.
Nowadays it's hard not to drown in the flood of graduates, even if you
have really good grades. From what I've heard among friends and
acquaintances, it's not at all rare for even excellent graduates in
Germany to be unemployed for a few years ("two years is nothing"), and
most employers don't care AT ALL about your grades. It's mostly about
your relations, who you know, who you slept with (and lots of totally
inept people, also ones I know directly, end up in jobs; incredible that
those companies don't go bankrupt immediately)...
--
Suffering from Gates-induced brain leakage...
·········@gmail.com writes:
> especially not for a high-school dropout trying to re-enter the good
> graces of the academic powers-that-be via a community college. So I'm
> led to consider schools that aren't on the top-10 list, and that's
> where things get confusing.
>
> I'd like some help from people who have been through CS programs in the
> kind of schools I'm talking about. Which schools have programs that
> base their instruction around elements such as lambda calculus and
> (semi-)functional languages? Which ones should I stay away from (e.g.
Check out
http://www.gustavus.edu/
You might even be able to get a scholarship out of them.
http://admission.gustavus.edu/admissions/financialaid/default.asp
Their CompSci introduction, appears to use Dr Scheme:
http://homepages.gac.edu/~mc27/2005F/
And this should be lambda enough to start with:
http://homepages.gac.edu/~mc27/2005F/examples/2005-12-12.scm
Max is there. He is a well regarded Schemer who has written one of the
most accessible books on Scheme around.
http://www.gustavus.edu/+max/concrete-abstractions.html
http://www.gustavus.edu/+max/concrete-abstractions-pdfs/list.cfm
I wanted to teach my older son CS using his book but he turned to the
dark side and is doing law at oxford instead.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire