Hi,
I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
program in Lisp. I'm *very* interested in learning it and I'd like to
know how well it fits with emacs and lisp programming. Also, how those
who use 'national' keyboards deal with lisp programming? for instance,
I use a keyboard with dead keys to type Portuguese (so I can get
letters like ç, á, é and so on). But the dead keys get in the way
when programming in lisp, because I have to type comma-space,
tilde-space, and so on. Any tips or ideas?
Pedro Kroger
"Pedro Kr�ger" <············@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi,
>
> I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
> program in Lisp. I'm *very* interested in learning it and I'd like to
> know how well it fits with emacs and lisp programming. Also, how those
> who use 'national' keyboards deal with lisp programming? for instance,
> I use a keyboard with dead keys to type Portuguese (so I can get
> letters like �, �, � and so on). But the dead keys get in the way
> when programming in lisp, because I have to type comma-space,
> tilde-space, and so on. Any tips or ideas?
I use a QWERTY keyboard, and I enter my accented characters with the X
compose key. This is the only dead-key I have on my keyboard.
<compose>-' e to get �
This is processed before emacs gets it so there's no conflict.
It would work as well (or even better) with dvorak.
Have a look at xmodmap.
On terminals, I use emacs's key translations starting with C-x 8
C-x 8 C-h for a list
C-x 8 ' e to get �
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
"Klingon function calls do not have "parameters" -- they have
"arguments" and they ALWAYS WIN THEM."
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Have a look at xmodmap.
thanks, I'll look that. looks useful.
> On terminals, I use emacs's key translations starting with C-x 8
> C-x 8 C-h for a list
> C-x 8 ' e to get é
This is for using emacs on terminals (without X) or is for the terminal
itself?
Pedro
"Pedro Kr�ger" <············@gmail.com> writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>
>> Have a look at xmodmap.
>
> thanks, I'll look that. looks useful.
>
>> On terminals, I use emacs's key translations starting with C-x 8
>> C-x 8 C-h for a list
>> C-x 8 ' e to get �
>
> This is for using emacs on terminals (without X) or is for the terminal
> itself?
Isn't not the same? Don't you just run emacs on any terminal? ;-)
It's only inside emacs.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> "Pedro Kröger" <············@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> >
> >> Have a look at xmodmap.
> >
> > thanks, I'll look that. looks useful.
> >
> >> On terminals, I use emacs's key translations starting with C-x 8
> >> C-x 8 C-h for a list
> >> C-x 8 ' e to get é
> >
> > This is for using emacs on terminals (without X) or is for the terminal
> > itself?
>
> Isn't not the same? Don't you just run emacs on any terminal? ;-)
>
> It's only inside emacs.
I use Dvorak on a US keyboard running Emacs. I run a modified Viper
inside my Emacs though, so I can't really comment on how the Emacs
chording feels.
Cheers
Brad
Pedro Kröger wrote:
> I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
> program in Lisp. I'm *very* interested in learning it and I'd like to
> know how well it fits with emacs and lisp programming. Also, how those
I'm curious why you're interested in Dvorak keyboards. I ask because I
considered switching to Dvorak several years ago due to severe RSI
problems, but I wasn't looking forward to all that muscle memory
retraining.
So, before taking the Dvorak plunge, I borrowed a Microsoft natural
keyboard and gave it a try. I found the keyboard very comfortable, and
similar enough to a standard one that retraining was trivial. Best of
all, within a week my RSI problems had disappeared. Of course
everyone's different and results vary, but it may be worth a try
depending on your motivations.
As far as 'national' keys, I have added US English and French to my KDE
Languages configuration, then bound (in KDE) C-A-k to toggle between
the two. KDE let's you do this on a per-application basis, which can be
handy but also a little frustrating at times. I generally use emacs
with the English keyboard layout, mostly because I like my A key right
next to my Ctrl key. I might be in the minority, but for some reason I
find it easier to switch to a French keyboard layout to type in that
language, as opposed to entering multiple keystrokes to compose a
single character.
- Peter
"petere" <··········@gmail.com> writes:
> I'm curious why you're interested in Dvorak keyboards.
1. I'm not a good typist. I can type 'fast' but not with accuracy and I
have to look often to the keyboard. So, I decided to learn how to
touch type. Since I'll learn it, why not learn with a dvorak layout?
2. Dvorak is supposed to be more comfortable (since the most used
letters are in the home key). dvorak is optmized to english, but it's
pretty close to other languages as well (like portuguese)
3. it seems to be cool ;)
> So, before taking the Dvorak plunge, I borrowed a Microsoft natural
> keyboard and gave it a try.
Of course Dvorak is not a silver bullet for RSI (although some people
claim it helps). A good keyboard is important. That's way I'm interested
in the typematrix.
> for some reason I find it easier to switch to a French keyboard layout
> to type in that language, as opposed to entering multiple keystrokes
> to compose a single character.
I'm used to us keyboards with dead keys to type Portuguese. Now it's
difficult to find it here in Brazil. The 'Brazilian' (ABNT2) is much
more common. What is annoying (for me) is that some (Brazilian)
keyboards may have sightly different layouts.
Pedro Kroger
············@gmail.com (Pedro Kr�ger) wrote:
>>...
>1. I'm not a good typist. I can type 'fast' but not with accuracy and I
> have to look often to the keyboard. So, I decided to learn how to
> touch type. Since I'll learn it, why not learn with a dvorak layout?
That's exactly what I did some years ago. I also bought a Kinesis
Contoured keyboard, a good chair and an ergonomic table. And finally
get rid of a RSI.
>2. Dvorak is supposed to be more comfortable (since the most used
> letters are in the home key). dvorak is optmized to english, but it's
> pretty close to other languages as well (like portuguese)
More or less. I have designed a French variant which I known is also
well appreciated by Italian and Spanish people. See :
http://www.algo.be/ergo/dispositions.htm
and especially the "Europe" version which provides most (all ?) the
accented and special characters used in Western Europe.
BTW
- "skin" and relabelling are useless if you touch type.
- forget the Microsoft natural keyboard.
Francis
>
>3. it seems to be cool ;)
>
>> So, before taking the Dvorak plunge, I borrowed a Microsoft natural
>> keyboard and gave it a try.
>
>Of course Dvorak is not a silver bullet for RSI (although some people
>claim it helps). A good keyboard is important. That's way I'm interested
>in the typematrix.
>
>> for some reason I find it easier to switch to a French keyboard layout
>> to type in that language, as opposed to entering multiple keystrokes
>> to compose a single character.
>
>I'm used to us keyboards with dead keys to type Portuguese. Now it's
>difficult to find it here in Brazil. The 'Brazilian' (ABNT2) is much
>more common. What is annoying (for me) is that some (Brazilian)
>keyboards may have sightly different layouts.
>
>Pedro Kroger
Francis Leboutte
www.algo.be
Pedro Kr�ger wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
> program in Lisp. I'm *very* interested in learning it and I'd like to
> know how well it fits with emacs and lisp programming.
I use Dvorak all the time, and have learned to use basic emacs keyboard
shortcuts with it. This works well most of the time. Some of the cursor
movement shortcuts don't match too well with Dvorak, but I forgot which
ones. Doesn't seem to matter too much...
Pascal
--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
Pedro Kr�ger scrisse:
> I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
> program in Lisp.
I just learned it in the last few days (in fact I'm using it to write
this very post) and I'll surely be using it to program in lisp, as soon
as I overcome my current, annoying 10wpm speed :-(
By the way, do you have any useful tip on getting up to speed, after
learning every key with the right finger, other than "type, type, type"?
> how those who use 'national' keyboards deal with lisp programming?
Custom keyboard map. Just configure your X server for a vanilla US
keyboard and then load your own extensions, using mode_switch instead of
the annoying dead keys. This is my xmodmap script, for Italian:
keycode 115 = Mode_switch
keysym a = a A agrave Agrave
keysym e = e E egrave Egrave
keysym w = w W eacute Eacute
keysym i = i I igrave Igrave
keysym o = o O ograve Ograve
keysym u = u U ugrave Ugrave
115 is an unused key on my keyboard, find one on yours with xev.
Keeping it pressed and typing 'a' yields '�', and so on.
'�' is on W because that's the key next to E on QWERTY. I'll have to
change my script as soon as I switch completely to Dvorak!
Toby
Pedro Kr�ger wrote:
> I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
> program in Lisp.
I use a modified dvorak so that the parentheses are unshifted, the caps lock
becomes control, esc becomes caps lock and control becomes esc. In emacs I
remapped C-x to C-q and M-x to M-q (Dvorak q is the Qwerty x key, the
Dvorak x is a bit of a stretch) and remapped what used to be C-q and M-q to
C-' and M-' respectively. I have been very happy using this setup.
From: Pedro Kröger
Subject: Re: [OT] Dvorak keyboard and Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <87irgk8zfd.fsf@gmail.com>
Thank you guys for the help. I'm thinking about buying a typematrix [1]
keyboard but haven't decided on the layout yet (i.e. if qwerty, dvorak,
or unlabeled). The compose key idea sounds very good. I'll have to
figure out how to make a good configuration to deal with the different
kinds of accents we use in Portuguese: � � � �
Pedro
Footnotes:
[1] http://www.typematrix.com
Pedro Kr�ger wrote:
> Thank you guys for the help. I'm thinking about buying a typematrix [1]
> keyboard but haven't decided on the layout yet (i.e. if qwerty, dvorak,
> or unlabeled).
I looked at the typematrix keyboards and was very tempted, but in the end
went for an IBM keyboard with a trackpoint.
Does anyone else use your computer, even occasionally? If so it might be
better to get a qwerty. On one of my computers, which gets shared, I have
a qwerty keyboard - login is in qwerty mode and then my user account goes
into dvorak, but the others don't.
If noone else uses the computer (or you don't want them to!), get unlabelled
as it looks cool :). Or get a qwerty anyway - if you get a dvorak, you
will be tempted to look at the keys and that will slow down learning to
touch type.
From: Pedro Kröger
Subject: Re: [OT] Dvorak keyboard and Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <87wt50twh3.fsf@gmail.com>
Xavier Cabal <·····@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> Does anyone else use your computer, even occasionally?
no, not really.
> If noone else uses the computer (or you don't want them to!), get unlabelled
> as it looks cool :).
I'm _really_ tempted to get this one. They have "skins" you can put on
top of it. I asked them how this skin thing works and if it feels good
when typing.
> Or get a qwerty anyway - if you get a dvorak, you will be tempted to
> look at the keys and that will slow down learning to touch type.
that's true. also, if I really whant to go dvorak, I'll have to be able
to type without looking, because I may need to use other computers (I
may change the keymap but not the keyboard).
Pedro Kroger
Pedro Kr�ger <············@gmail.com> writes:
> I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
> program in Lisp. I'm *very* interested in learning it and I'd like
> to know how well it fits with emacs and lisp programming.
I use a DVORAK layout and program in Lisp using XEmacs, and I noticed
no difference in productivity once the transition from QWERTY was
complete. I never changed any of my keymappings; none of them feel any
more difficult or awkward with DVORAK.
However, I do notice that some /keyboards/ are better for DVORAK than
others. I'm partial to the Kinesis Contoured Keyboard range.�
Footnotes:
� http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm
--
Steven E. Harris
Pedro Kr�ger schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> I'm wandering if someone here uses the Dvorak keyboard layout to
> program in Lisp. I'm *very* interested in learning it and I'd like to
> know how well it fits with emacs and lisp programming. Also, how those
> who use 'national' keyboards deal with lisp programming? for instance,
> I use a keyboard with dead keys to type Portuguese (so I can get
> letters like �, �, � and so on). But the dead keys get in the way
> when programming in lisp, because I have to type comma-space,
> tilde-space, and so on. Any tips or ideas?
>
> Pedro Kroger
Your name "Kr�ger" sounds german.
If you are german I can suggest you to use the NEO layout instead of
Dvorak.
NEO is even better than Dvorak, because the author used tools and
knowledge that were not available when it was created.
Today we can be very sure that it is next to impossible to improve
NEO significantly. Maybe 0,8% are possible.
NEO is very well for german and really good for typing english too.
With qwertz one can write 75 german words in the home row.
With Dvorak one can write 1400 ger. words in the home row.
With NEO one can write more than 3600 german words in the home row.
NEO is available for Linux, MacOS, Windows and the C64.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEO-Tastaturlayout
Official site:
http://pebbles.schattenlauf.de/layout.php
English version:
http://pebbles.schattenlauf.de/layout/index_us.html
Under Linux you can install KTouch to train 99 Lessons with NEO.
It is good for Lisp development. The first goal was to ease typing
german, then english, and then for programmers.
For example there is no CAPS key anymore. While you hold it down
and press some key you will see useful chars showing up.
For example ( and ) are always under your right hand.
I was using qwertz for 17 years and got a good typing speed of ca.
430 keys per minute.
Now I am using NEO since the European Lisp conference 2006 and can
type so far 360 KPM. So I did not reach my full typing speed back,
but I only trained 6 weeks to reach over 220 kpm and stopped then.
I expect next year to reach my ex speed of ca. 430 with NEO.
And before 2010 I want to reach more than 500 kpm.
Another friend had 230 kpm with qwertz and now, after 5 months he has
340 kpm with NEO. All training time he spent will be regained in a
few months. From then on he will have 20-30 more minutes every day
for something else.
Andr�
--