From: Emre Sevinc
Subject: Use Emacs and Lisp for your HTML homework and be accused of cheating
Date:
Message-ID: <87wt9kdv8r.fsf@ileriseviye.org>
This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
"I'm taking a web publishing class as part of my degree program
at a local college. The teacher mentioned to us on several
occasions that we were not allowed to use WYSIWYG editors for
the class. He wants us to hand type all the HTML. That's fine
with me, in fact, I hate WYSIWYG editors. I figured I would not be
violating this rule if I were to use Emacs (my editor of choice) which
is text based and provides absolutely no WYSIWYG functionality at all.
I also assumed it would be OK to write the HTML using compact lisp
symbolic expressions to save my poor hands from RSI. In case you've
never seen HTML written this way, here\u2019s an example:
(:html
(:head (:title "Title of the web page"))
(:body (:h1 "Hello World!"))))
Writing HTML this way saves a lot of typing and avoids the
"angle bracket tax". After writing the HTML using s-exprs I run it
through a translator that spits out normal HTML, which is what
I turn in to the teacher.
Well, today I got 2 emails from my teacher. The first one said
I did a excellent job with my assignment and he even gave me some
extra credit points. The next email, which came a few hours later,
he retracted my grade stating that I must have used a WYSIWYG editor
to do the assignment. My HTML was too advanced and well formatted to
be hand written. He then said he would give me a break this one time
and let me redo my assignment by hand like the rest of the
students in the class."
http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
"No good deed will ever go unpunished"
--
Emre Sevinc
eMBA Software Developer Actively engaged in:
http://emba.bilgi.edu.tr http://ileriseviye.org
http://www.bilgi.edu.tr http://fazlamesai.net
Cognitive Science Student http://cazci.com
http://www.cogsci.boun.edu.tr
Emre Sevinc <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
> This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>
> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>
> "No good deed will ever go unpunished"
His fault.
He should have added fudge factors to the generation of the HTML...
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the "uncertainty principle," it is
impossible for the consumer to simultaneously know both the precise
location and velocity of this product.
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, Emre Sevinc wrote:
>
> This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>
> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>
> "I'm taking a web publishing class as part of my degree program at a
> local college. The teacher mentioned to us on several occasions that we
> were not allowed to use WYSIWYG editors for the class. He wants us to
> hand type all the HTML. That's fine with me, in fact, I hate WYSIWYG
> editors. I figured I would not be violating this rule if I were to use
> Emacs (my editor of choice) which is text based and provides absolutely
> no WYSIWYG functionality at all. I also assumed it would be OK to write
> the HTML using compact lisp symbolic expressions to save my poor hands
> from RSI. In case you've never seen HTML written this way, here\u2019s
> an example:
>
> (:html (:head (:title "Title of the web page")) (:body (:h1 "Hello
> World!"))))
>
> Writing HTML this way saves a lot of typing and avoids the "angle
> bracket tax". After writing the HTML using s-exprs I run it through a
> translator that spits out normal HTML, which is what I turn in to the
> teacher.
>
> Well, today I got 2 emails from my teacher. The first one said I did a
> excellent job with my assignment and he even gave me some extra credit
> points. The next email, which came a few hours later, he retracted my
> grade stating that I must have used a WYSIWYG editor to do the
> assignment. My HTML was too advanced and well formatted to be hand
> written.
I'm kinda confused. Either:
1. The teacher means that the resulting page looks too good. This is
obviously nothing to do with the Lisp; the teacher would just be
complaining that anthony is too good at web page design. Result:
Teacher is stupid.
2. The teacher means that the HTML itself looks too good. This is maybe to
do with the Lisp: the other students probably have messed up
indentation and inconsistent syntax (href=foo, href="bar", href='baz'),
anthony's script could easily have produced perfectly formatted
perfectly conforming HTML. But that means the teacher has no idea that
the HTML output from WYSIWYG tools is always hideous. Result: Teacher
is stupid.
Reason 1 would be the slightly less stupid option, except a glance at the
source file would probably make it clear that it wasn't the product of a
WYSIWYG tool.
> He then said he would give me a break this one time and let me redo my
> assignment by hand like the rest of the students in the class."
>
> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>
> "No good deed will ever go unpunished"
>
> --
> Emre Sevinc
>
> eMBA Software Developer Actively engaged in:
> http://emba.bilgi.edu.tr http://ileriseviye.org
> http://www.bilgi.edu.tr http://fazlamesai.net
> Cognitive Science Student http://cazci.com
> http://www.cogsci.boun.edu.tr
>
Emre Sevinc <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
> This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>
> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>
> "I'm taking a web publishing class as part of my degree program
> at a local college. The teacher mentioned to us on several
> occasions that we were not allowed to use WYSIWYG editors for
> the class. He wants us to hand type all the HTML. That's fine
> with me, in fact, I hate WYSIWYG editors. I figured I would not be
> violating this rule if I were to use Emacs (my editor of choice) which
> is text based and provides absolutely no WYSIWYG functionality at all.
> I also assumed it would be OK to write the HTML using compact lisp
> symbolic expressions to save my poor hands from RSI. In case you've
> never seen HTML written this way, here\u2019s an example:
>
> (:html
> (:head (:title "Title of the web page"))
> (:body (:h1 "Hello World!"))))
>
> Writing HTML this way saves a lot of typing and avoids the
> "angle bracket tax". After writing the HTML using s-exprs I run it
> through a translator that spits out normal HTML, which is what
> I turn in to the teacher.
>
> Well, today I got 2 emails from my teacher. The first one said
> I did a excellent job with my assignment and he even gave me some
> extra credit points. The next email, which came a few hours later,
> he retracted my grade stating that I must have used a WYSIWYG editor
> to do the assignment. My HTML was too advanced and well formatted to
> be hand written. He then said he would give me a break this one time
> and let me redo my assignment by hand like the rest of the
> students in the class."
>
> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>
> "No good deed will ever go unpunished"
>
I guess this says more about the teacher than anything. I once got
marked down many years ago when doing an introductory basic
programming course. I was marked down because I used subroutines and
structured code - the comment was that I should have used gotos.
Tim
--
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Use Emacs and Lisp for your HTML homework and be accused of cheating
Date:
Message-ID: <1zZBg.1026$Fs3.490@fe09.lga>
Tim X wrote:
> Emre Sevinc <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
>
>
>>This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>>
>>http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>>
>>"I'm taking a web publishing class as part of my degree program
>>at a local college. The teacher mentioned to us on several
>>occasions that we were not allowed to use WYSIWYG editors for
>>the class. He wants us to hand type all the HTML. That's fine
>>with me, in fact, I hate WYSIWYG editors. I figured I would not be
>>violating this rule if I were to use Emacs (my editor of choice) which
>>is text based and provides absolutely no WYSIWYG functionality at all.
>>I also assumed it would be OK to write the HTML using compact lisp
>>symbolic expressions to save my poor hands from RSI. In case you've
>>never seen HTML written this way, here\u2019s an example:
>>
>>(:html
>>(:head (:title "Title of the web page"))
>>(:body (:h1 "Hello World!"))))
>>
>>Writing HTML this way saves a lot of typing and avoids the
>>"angle bracket tax". After writing the HTML using s-exprs I run it
>>through a translator that spits out normal HTML, which is what
>>I turn in to the teacher.
>>
>>Well, today I got 2 emails from my teacher. The first one said
>>I did a excellent job with my assignment and he even gave me some
>>extra credit points. The next email, which came a few hours later,
>>he retracted my grade stating that I must have used a WYSIWYG editor
>>to do the assignment. My HTML was too advanced and well formatted to
>>be hand written. He then said he would give me a break this one time
>>and let me redo my assignment by hand like the rest of the
>>students in the class."
>>
>>http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>>
>>"No good deed will ever go unpunished"
>>
>
>
> I guess this says more about the teacher than anything.
The teacher said (several times): "He wants us to hand type all the
HTML." That does not mean the teacher would reject anything typed in
with their toes. That means the teacher wants the students to learn the
HTML syntax, which is not required when one uses a WYSIWYG editor. Or a
Lisp package that writes it for you. (I am guessing the student used a
Lisp-to-HTML package written by someone else.)
kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Ken Tilton schrieb:
> Tim X wrote:
> > Emre Sevinc <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
> >>The teacher mentioned to us on several occasions that we were
> >>not allowed to use WYSIWYG editors for the class. He wants us
> >>to hand type all the HTML. That's fine with me, in fact, I hate
> >>WYSIWYG editors. I figured I would not be violating this rule if
> >>I were to use Emacs (my editor of choice) which is text based
> >>and provides absolutely no WYSIWYG functionality at all. I also
> >>assumed it would be OK to write the HTML using compact lisp
> >>symbolic expressions
[...]
> >>After writing the HTML using s-exprs I run it through a translator
> >>that spits out normal HTML, which is what I turn in to the teacher.
> >>
> >>Well, today I got 2 emails from my teacher. The first one said I
> >>did a excellent job with my assignment and he even gave me some
> >>extra credit points. The next email, which came a few hours later,
> >>he retracted my grade stating that I must have used a WYSIWYG
> >>editor to do the assignment. My HTML was too advanced and well
> >>formatted to be hand written.
> >
> > I guess this says more about the teacher than anything.
>
> The teacher said (several times): "He wants us to hand type all the
> HTML." That does not mean the teacher would reject anything typed
> in with their toes.
So one would hope, but this isn't a given.
> That means the teacher wants the students to learn the HTML syntax,
Maybe. Much of the utility of a Lisp package comes from the fact
that the syntax of HTML is not nearly as important as its structure,
which is (more or less) preserved by writing it in Lisp.
> which is not required when one uses a WYSIWYG editor. Or a Lisp
> package that writes it for you. (I am guessing the student used a
> Lisp-to-HTML package written by someone else.)
While I basically agree with you, I don't think you can infer that
from the reasons given by the instructor for the change of grade. In
particular, he was simply speculating that a WYSIWYG editor must have
been used, and using that as the basis to invalidate the grade already
awarded; it wasn't until he'd already announced that decision that he
learned how it had been written. (At which point, the fact that it
involved Lisp is quite irrelevant.) That the instructor changed his
mind after several hours suggests that the reversal may have been
prompted by grading some of the other students' works, which may well
have appeared absolutely atrocious in comparison; after all, at a first
look, it had already been considered somewhat exceptional.
I suspect that any half decent programmers, accustomed to exploring
the functionality of their tools and to reading and writing neatly
formatted code, would tend to produce HTML that was "too advanced"
and "well formatted", regardless of the particular tools being used.
This tends to be rare coming from the general populace, simply
because a lot of people are intimidated by trying things on their
own, and don't write anything in sufficient quantity to have developed
a sense of what constitutes aesthetically pleasing structure in text
(whether code or prose).
Besides that, just because something is WYSIWYG, it doesn't follow
that it will produce pretty (or even correct) HTML.
On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:44:47 -0700, trm wrote:
> Besides that, just because something is WYSIWYG, it doesn't follow that
> it will produce pretty (or even correct) HTML.
Nor does it follow the other way.
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> Tim X wrote:
>> Emre Sevinc <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
>>
>>
>>>This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>>>
>>>http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>>>
>>> "I'm taking a web publishing class as part of my degree program at
>>> a local college. The teacher mentioned to us on several occasions
>>> that we were not allowed to use WYSIWYG editors for the class. He
>>> wants us to hand type all the HTML. That's fine with me, in fact, I
>>> hate WYSIWYG editors. I figured I would not be violating this rule
>>> if I were to use Emacs (my editor of choice) which is text based
>>> and provides absolutely no WYSIWYG functionality at all. I also
>>> assumed it would be OK to write the HTML using compact lisp
>>> symbolic expressions to save my poor hands from RSI. In case you've
>>> never seen HTML written this way, here\u2019s an example:
>>>
>>>(:html
>>>(:head (:title "Title of the web page"))
>>>(:body (:h1 "Hello World!"))))
>>>
>>> Writing HTML this way saves a lot of typing and avoids the "angle
>>> bracket tax". After writing the HTML using s-exprs I run it through
>>> a translator that spits out normal HTML, which is what I turn in to
>>> the teacher.
>>>
>>> Well, today I got 2 emails from my teacher. The first one said I
>>> did a excellent job with my assignment and he even gave me some
>>> extra credit points. The next email, which came a few hours later,
>>> he retracted my grade stating that I must have used a WYSIWYG
>>> editor to do the assignment. My HTML was too advanced and well
>>> formatted to be hand written. He then said he would give me a break
>>> this one time and let me redo my assignment by hand like the rest
>>> of the students in the class."
>>>
>>>http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>>>
>>>"No good deed will ever go unpunished"
>>>
>>
>>
>> I guess this says more about the teacher than anything.
>
> The teacher said (several times): "He wants us to hand type all the
> HTML." That does not mean the teacher would reject anything typed in
> with their toes. That means the teacher wants the students to learn
> the HTML syntax, which is not required when one uses a WYSIWYG editor.
> Or a Lisp package that writes it for you. (I am guessing the student
> used a Lisp-to-HTML package written by someone else.)
>
Possibly, but that isn't apparent from what is given. It is only an
assumption the student didn't write the necessary code to transform
the s-exp to html. He also didn't use a wysiwyg editor. I'd say his
only real failing was his failure to include a bit of "human"
inconsistency in how his html was presented.
Of course, the question is if he was smart enough to use s-expressions
and a converter, why the hell is he doing a course on HTML. I've
actually never heard of anyone who can program doing a course on HTML
and I use to laugh at those people in the 90s who put themselves down
as web programmers because they wrote html. I guess I should have said
I was a Tex/LaTeX programmer!
Tim
--
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au
From: Ken Tilton
Subject: Re: Use Emacs and Lisp for your HTML homework and be accused of cheating
Date:
Message-ID: <JfICg.5$FK5.1@newsfe11.lga>
Tim X wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Tim X wrote:
>>
>>>Emre Sevinc <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>>>>
>>>>http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>>>>
>>>>"I'm taking a web publishing class as part of my degree program at
>>>>a local college. The teacher mentioned to us on several occasions
>>>>that we were not allowed to use WYSIWYG editors for the class. He
>>>>wants us to hand type all the HTML. That's fine with me, in fact, I
>>>>hate WYSIWYG editors. I figured I would not be violating this rule
>>>>if I were to use Emacs (my editor of choice) which is text based
>>>>and provides absolutely no WYSIWYG functionality at all. I also
>>>>assumed it would be OK to write the HTML using compact lisp
>>>>symbolic expressions to save my poor hands from RSI. In case you've
>>>>never seen HTML written this way, here\u2019s an example:
>>>>
>>>>(:html
>>>>(:head (:title "Title of the web page"))
>>>>(:body (:h1 "Hello World!"))))
>>>>
>>>>Writing HTML this way saves a lot of typing and avoids the "angle
>>>>bracket tax". After writing the HTML using s-exprs I run it through
>>>>a translator that spits out normal HTML, which is what I turn in to
>>>>the teacher.
>>>>
>>>>Well, today I got 2 emails from my teacher. The first one said I
>>>>did a excellent job with my assignment and he even gave me some
>>>>extra credit points. The next email, which came a few hours later,
>>>>he retracted my grade stating that I must have used a WYSIWYG
>>>>editor to do the assignment. My HTML was too advanced and well
>>>>formatted to be hand written. He then said he would give me a break
>>>>this one time and let me redo my assignment by hand like the rest
>>>>of the students in the class."
>>>>
>>>>http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>>>>
>>>>"No good deed will ever go unpunished"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I guess this says more about the teacher than anything.
>>
>>The teacher said (several times): "He wants us to hand type all the
>>HTML." That does not mean the teacher would reject anything typed in
>>with their toes. That means the teacher wants the students to learn
>>the HTML syntax, which is not required when one uses a WYSIWYG editor.
>>Or a Lisp package that writes it for you. (I am guessing the student
>>used a Lisp-to-HTML package written by someone else.)
>>
>
>
> Possibly, but that isn't apparent from what is given. It is only an
> assumption the student didn't write the necessary code to transform
> the s-exp to html.
From the blog (in response to the same point I made there):
"To Kenny: You are correct, I exchanged some emails with the teacher and
by WYSIWYG he meant anything that generates HTML, even my lisp code...As
for the lisp package I was using, I chose CL-WHO."
Also: "I should have known better to do the assignment that way and I
overreacted to the teacher�s accusations."
hth, kt
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
Tim X <····@nospam.dev.null> writes:
> Possibly, but that isn't apparent from what is given. It is only an
> assumption the student didn't write the necessary code to transform
> the s-exp to html. He also didn't use a wysiwyg editor. I'd say his
> only real failing was his failure to include a bit of "human"
> inconsistency in how his html was presented.
I would fail this test too. Perhaps I'm not "human"... Call me Data!
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the
consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to
exist or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.
Emre Sevinc wrote:
> This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>
> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
I have only one question. If this programmer is so clever, why is he
taking an HTML class for morons?
If he's there just to meet girls, he should shut up and do the work the
way it's expected, keeping his mind on the real objective, and not
picking confrontations with the teacher.
This guy may be clever with emacs and Lisp, but he's obtuse when it
comes to human psychology. The dumb HTML teacher is made to feel stupid
by someone who is obviously way smarter. There are a lot of bad
teachers out there who have these two characteristics: they are
authoritarian, and deeply insecure (rightfully so) about their meagre
intellects. You work with and around these people, not through them.
It's not about being technically right or wrong, but about managing
personalities. That in itself is also a kind of software activity
requiring cleverness.
"Kaz Kylheku" <········@gmail.com> writes:
> Emre Sevinc wrote:
>> This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>>
>> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>
> I have only one question. If this programmer is so clever, why is he
> taking an HTML class for morons?
>
> If he's there just to meet girls, he should shut up and do the work the
> way it's expected, keeping his mind on the real objective, and not
> picking confrontations with the teacher.
>
> This guy may be clever with emacs and Lisp, but he's obtuse when it
> comes to human psychology. The dumb HTML teacher is made to feel stupid
> by someone who is obviously way smarter. There are a lot of bad
> teachers out there who have these two characteristics: they are
> authoritarian, and deeply insecure (rightfully so) about their meagre
> intellects. You work with and around these people, not through them.
>
> It's not about being technically right or wrong, but about managing
> personalities. That in itself is also a kind of software activity
> requiring cleverness.
Social engineering got bad press with the Mitnick witch hunt...
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality"
-- on a wall many years ago in Oxford.
On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:51:53 +0200, <···@informatimago.com> wrote:
> "Kaz Kylheku" <········@gmail.com> writes:
>> Emre Sevinc wrote:
>>> This is how a programmer paid for his being clever:
>>>
>>> http://anthonyf.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/accused-of-cheating/
>>
>> It's not about being technically right or wrong, but about managing
>> personalities. That in itself is also a kind of software activity
>> requiring cleverness.
>
> Social engineering got bad press with the Mitnick witch hunt...
Mitnick played his part well, but the real scam was at the NY Times.
Not to mention that Kevins goal and style is not what is being pointed
out in the above. I must agree that this 'example' smells fishy.
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