http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
I post the URL to this steve yeggeian blog entry
in order to pre-empt rumors that he and me are the
same person. Last time I checked we were not, but
some parts of his essay on Lisp's perceived suckage
read almost verbatimly like my handwaving in this
whopper:
http://groups.google.at/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/7529f8db13b88ba3/de1fa2ccc3c2f376?lnk=st&q=%22tin+gherdanarra%22&rnum=1&hl=de#de1fa2ccc3c2f376
So I'm paging Steve Yegge with "I'm Tin Gherdanarra and you are not".
Now go and call HIM a troll with a BDSM-fetish and bad taste. Heh.
Tin Gherdanarra wrote:
> http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
>
> I post the URL to this steve yeggeian blog entry
> in order to pre-empt rumors that he and me are the
> same person. Last time I checked we were not, but
> some parts of his essay on Lisp's perceived suckage
> read almost verbatimly like my handwaving in this
> whopper:
>
> http://groups.google.at/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/7529f8db13b88ba3/de1fa2ccc3c2f376?lnk=st&q=%22tin+gherdanarra%22&rnum=1&hl=de#de1fa2ccc3c2f376
>
>
> So I'm paging Steve Yegge with "I'm Tin Gherdanarra and you are not".
> Now go and call HIM a troll with a BDSM-fetish and bad taste. Heh.
Hey, what are you doing here? Ah, make that: Hey, where did my killfile
go?! Firefox must be server-specific, which does not make a lot of
sense, but there ya go.
Steve Yegge a troll? Well, he /does/ start off by drooling all over
another blog getting a lot of attention by flaming Lisp. Add to that his
utter ignorance (CLOS slot accessors are macros?!) and poor reasoning
and the only conclusion is that a not too bright person is hoping to
grow his blog with a Lisp flame. ie, Troll.
ken
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
minister husband, when asked if the couple had
marital problems.
Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
> Steve Yegge a troll? Well, he /does/ start off by drooling all over
> another blog getting a lot of attention by flaming Lisp. Add to that
> his utter ignorance (CLOS slot accessors are macros?!) and poor
> reasoning and the only conclusion is that a not too bright person is
> hoping to grow his blog with a Lisp flame. ie, Troll.
FWIW, he does have some other blog posts (particularly in his old blog)
about Emacs, Mathematics and programming in general that are
interesting. I was actually surprised with this somewhat misinformed
rant about CL and CLOS.
--
Luís Oliveira
luismbo (@) gmail (.) com
Equipa Portuguesa do Translation Project
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/translation/registry.cgi?team=pt
Luís Oliveira wrote:
> Ken Tilton <·········@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>Steve Yegge a troll? Well, he /does/ start off by drooling all over
>>another blog getting a lot of attention by flaming Lisp. Add to that
>>his utter ignorance (CLOS slot accessors are macros?!) and poor
>>reasoning and the only conclusion is that a not too bright person is
>>hoping to grow his blog with a Lisp flame. ie, Troll.
>
>
> FWIW, he does have some other blog posts (particularly in his old blog)
> about Emacs, Mathematics and programming in general that are
> interesting. I was actually surprised with this somewhat misinformed
> rant about CL and CLOS.
That just confirms my theory. He is out of his league and if he is as
good as you say he is (a) he knows he is out of his league and the
crappy reasoning I observed were just deliberate flames. In fact,
thinking back on some of the language, those were deliberate flames,
pushing all the most reliable buttons.
He's just trying to tap into Lisp's growing mojo and in the end turns
out to be implicit evidence (as if we needed any more) of Lisp's
ascendancy. Let's see if it works!
Time to move Lisp up on the resume (or put it back on). :)
ken
--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/
"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
minister husband, when asked if the couple had
marital problems.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:36:06 +0200, Tin Gherdanarra
<···········@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey, Kenny, be a sports...
>
>> Steve Yegge a troll? Well, he /does/ start off by drooling all over
>> another blog getting a lot of attention by flaming Lisp. Add to that
>> his utter ignorance (CLOS slot accessors are macros?!) and poor
>> reasoning and the only conclusion is that a not too bright person is
>> hoping to grow his blog with a Lisp flame. ie, Troll.
>
> You think he is doing that for the attention? That's what
> I think, too. After all, he even starts his blog entry with
> "This guy got a lot of attention, so let's jump on the
> Lisp bandwagon and here it is... my TROLLING!"
>
>
>
>> ken
>>
How about we conclude that reddit failed to devlop a Lisp version
because of lack of skill in the Lisp language.
Judging form the argumets given one does get the picture that he
dosn't know what he is talking about.
Most of he critisisms I just shrug and say so what..
Like Lisp macroes are not hygenic.
I fail to see how that reduces the usabillity.
Or CLOS uses macroes.
Duh.. So what? He seems to have trouble with the fact that
Lisp is multi-paradigm which I consider one of Lisp's great
strengths. I totally disagree in that EVERYTHING is a object!
Parser object? come on.. try this for size.. Ever seen one or
talked of one in everyday language? If No -> It's not a object!
I think half of SmallTalks software patters are just about
getting around the lack of proper procedures and global variables.
(In fact he sais "is buildt using macroes" which is wrong.
Layer one objects. Layer 2 functions.
Only the top tire has a set of macroes to facilitate
the interface. But lets assume he ment the top tire.)
He totally misses one of my critisisms.
The dissosiative world we get having classes and types being
different.
Common Lisp is far from a perfect Lisp.. But it is does produce workable
app's
Just like C++ is not a perfect languge, but most applications today are
written in it.
At some point you just have to take the language, warts and all, and get
some work done.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
John Thingstad wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:36:06 +0200, Tin Gherdanarra
> <···········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Hey, Kenny, be a sports...
>>
>>> Steve Yegge a troll? Well, he /does/ start off by drooling all over
>>> another blog getting a lot of attention by flaming Lisp. Add to that
>>> his utter ignorance (CLOS slot accessors are macros?!) and poor
>>> reasoning and the only conclusion is that a not too bright person is
>>> hoping to grow his blog with a Lisp flame. ie, Troll.
>>
>>
>> You think he is doing that for the attention? That's what
>> I think, too. After all, he even starts his blog entry with
>> "This guy got a lot of attention, so let's jump on the
>> Lisp bandwagon and here it is... my TROLLING!"
>>
>>
>>
>>> ken
>>>
>
> How about we conclude that reddit failed to devlop a Lisp version
> because of lack of skill in the Lisp language.
That's not what it looked like to me. To me it looked as
if the dynamic duo was too capricious about which lisp
to use. And they did not want "to be tethered to the server
from the mac" -- I mean, this is a stiff order. "You give
me a million bucks -- I don't want hundred-dollar bills. I
want fifties. You don't have any? Get out of here!"
> Judging form the argumets given one does get the picture that he
> dosn't know what he is talking about.
Anything you say. I believed Stevo, even where I felt that
he is wrong, because I'm a very gullible person.
>
> Most of he critisisms I just shrug and say so what..
> Like Lisp macroes are not hygenic.
> I fail to see how that reduces the usabillity.
> Or CLOS uses macroes.
> Duh.. So what? He seems to have trouble with the fact that
> Lisp is multi-paradigm which I consider one of Lisp's great
> strengths.
It goes beyond that. For some reason nobody talks about
Lisp's syntax as an idea in its own right. It is very
possible to make a C-style language without C's syntax,
using S-expressions for declaring integers, arrays,
pointers and the like. It is also possible to build
a python or smalltalk with S-expressions alone. Assembly
languages have been put to very good use that are, in
fact, lists of S-expressions. In many cases your source
code would become more verbose, but you could make up
for that using Lisp-like macros and the full power of
Lisp for your lispy C, assembler, haskell or smalltalk. In other
words: You can write ANY compiler or interpreter in Lisp
and have the user of the language formulate his programming
as s-expressions, i.e. the adorned syntax tree of the
language, then process the tree in Lisp. How more
multi-paradigm do you want that? I wasted years of tinkering
with grammers and automatons, just to find out that they
basically suck. It is much easier to write any domain-specific
or not so domain-specific language in Lisp.
I totally disagree in that EVERYTHING is a object!
> Parser object? come on.. try this for size.. Ever seen one or
> talked of one in everyday language? If No -> It's not a object!
> I think half of SmallTalks software patters are just about
> getting around the lack of proper procedures and global variables.
You can say that loud again. I'm very disappointed with
OOP. Using OOP is an architecture-desaster waiting to happen.
OOP calcifies your architecture because you end up with
fairly specialized relationship between software entitites.
Just like grammars, OOP is dangerous voodoo.
> (In fact he sais "is buildt using macroes" which is wrong.
> Layer one objects. Layer 2 functions.
> Only the top tire has a set of macroes to facilitate
> the interface. But lets assume he ment the top tire.)
>
> He totally misses one of my critisisms.
> The dissosiative world we get having classes and types being
> different.
>
> Common Lisp is far from a perfect Lisp.. But it is does produce
> workable app's
> Just like C++ is not a perfect languge, but most applications today are
> written in it.
> At some point you just have to take the language, warts and all, and
> get some work done.
The good thing is that Lisp is more than a particular implementation.
Lisp is a very good IDEA whose implications and benefits are poorly
understood, due to lack of interest and lack of industry support.
But I'm repeating myself and the sentiment of most people here.