Hi all. A couple of years ago, there was a question raised about the
legal status of the draft version of the ANSI Common Lisp spec, and the
reply was that the status was a bit murky:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5828f58fa34e2ce8
I was curious - does anybody know if the process of releasing the draft
as a public domain document could still be finished off or is that now
impossible? It would be nice to get this clarified. Does anybody know
who would need to be contacted?
Thanks,
CY
"C Y" writes:
> I was curious - does anybody know if the process of releasing the
> [ANSI CL] draft as a public domain document could still be finished
> off or is that now impossible?
It's quite unlikely that the status has changed.
In article <························@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"C Y" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree it probably hasn't changed, but is there any way it could be
> made to change?
You'd have to convince ANSI that there's some benefit to them in
diluting the value of something they sell.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article <························@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "C Y" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I agree it probably hasn't changed, but is there any way it could be
> > made to change?
>
> You'd have to convince ANSI that there's some benefit to them in
> diluting the value of something they sell.
Is it really diluting it? The draft spec is already available in
electronic form for free download, and has been for a very long time.
The only value added I can see in the ANSI spec (unless there were
significant changes between the last draft and the final version) is
that it is "official" in the sense of being ANSI endorsed. The draft
spec is not official, particularly not if it is distributed from a
source other than the original one. Sure it might be very close to the
official one, but it's already out there for anyone to read and has
been for years. What additional harm to the version ANSI sells could
be done by making the status of the draft clear? Anyone who is worried
about being truly ANSI compilant can buy the electronic version for a
nominal fee ($18 assuming I'm correct and this is the official Lisp
ANSI spec?:
http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ANSI+INCITS+226%2D1994+%28R1999%29)
and check, but for most purposes the (already freely downloadable)
draft is probably sufficient.
The main reason I'm interested is the possibility of blending the draft
specification with a lisp implementation itself in a literate
programming style, like the one the Axiom project is beginning to use.
It won't constitute any kind of guarantee of compliance but it would be
the perfect starting point for documenting an implementation. (Indeed,
since most implementations differ from the spec in some ways the
documentation in fact could not be limited to the draft ANSI spec text
- the ANSI draft would serve only as a (very useful!) starting point.)
So currently, the only significant advantage of the "official" ANSI
specification over the already available draft is that it IS the
"official specification, and any damage to that product that could be
done by another freely available version already happened long ago.
For the purposes I'm interested in no "official" spec could be used in
any case, even if some sort of "special redistribution license" could
be negociated (which I doubt) - the implementation itself would almost
certainly involve editing the spec to document the actual
implementation itself and thus making it not the official spec - hence
unendorsable by ANSI. For the purpose I'm interested in ANSI doesn't
sell any product that could be licensed, and so there is no potential
for revenue loss.
Anyway, that's the thinking. It's possible I'm missing some reason it
would be harmful to ANSI to clarify the draft standard's status.
"C Y" wrote:
> Anyone who is worried about being truly ANSI compilant can buy the
> electronic version for a nominal fee ($18 assuming I'm correct and
> this is the official Lisp ANSI spec?:
> http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ANSI+INCITS+226%2D1994+%28R1999%29)
Anyone who is considering this, should know that the PDF you get is
badly botched.
Barry Margolin wrote:
> You'd have to convince ANSI that there's some benefit to them in
> diluting the value of something they sell.
Note that "C Y" asked about the draft document, not the final
standard. ANSI doesn't sell the draft, do they?
In article <··············@junk.nocrew.org>,
Lars Brinkhoff <·········@nocrew.org> wrote:
> Barry Margolin wrote:
> > You'd have to convince ANSI that there's some benefit to them in
> > diluting the value of something they sell.
>
> Note that "C Y" asked about the draft document, not the final
> standard. ANSI doesn't sell the draft, do they?
But if the draft is 99% the same as the final standard, many would
switch to it in favor of the effectively equivalent document that they
would have to buy.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article <··············@junk.nocrew.org>,
> Lars Brinkhoff <·········@nocrew.org> wrote:
>
> > Barry Margolin wrote:
> > > You'd have to convince ANSI that there's some benefit to them in
> > > diluting the value of something they sell.
> >
> > Note that "C Y" asked about the draft document, not the final
> > standard. ANSI doesn't sell the draft, do they?
>
> But if the draft is 99% the same as the final standard, many would
> switch to it in favor of the effectively equivalent document that they
> would have to buy.
But that's the point - it's ALREADY available, and has been since the
effort to CREATE the spec. There was NEVER any reason to buy the final
ANSI standard unless you want to have the Official, Final ANSI standard
- the draft was always there to read. For some uses (like, say,
guaranteeing a commerical product is ANSI compliant) you actually need
this, but in most cases that's probably not necessary.
The only reason I'm even asking is I'd like to weave the spec and lisp
source code together into a literate document, which requires some
definite knowledge of what the status and permissions are for the draft
spec. (Of course, I COULD do it regardless, but I couldn't distribute
it and in that case what's the point?) ANSI doesn't offer any license
for including the final spec as part of a literate programming exercise
(for obvious reasons) so there's no revenue stream lost here. The
draft spec, the only potentially usable version for this work, is
already all over the internet and has been for many years - if it were
going to do any damage to sales for the ANSI spec I think it's already
done. People may very well have "switched over" to the draft spec even
before the final one came out! ANSI's only marketable value added here
is that their version is regarded as "official." That's still true -
the draft spec is not official and if you want to say you are fully
compliant you can't rely only on that - you have to buy the official
version and check. And at $18 a pop, with only lisp implementations
even needing it in the first place, I doubt there is any kind of major
revenue stream going here. When was the last time a brand new
distribution reached the point where it would have to buy the ANSI spec
to verify full compliance, instead of just going with the draft, Paul's
ANSI tests, and community resources? ANSI serves a purpose as the
keeper of the Final ANSI standard, but it is rarely needed in the Lisp
community.