So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
have a second printing. Besides the good implications this has for how
sales have been going, it also means that I have a chance to correct
small errors that appear in the 1st printing. I have to give my fixes
to Apress by the end of the week so if you have been meaning to write
to me about any errata, now'd be a good time to do it. I just put up a
first cut errata list at:
<http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/errata.txt>
so you can check there to see if I already know about something before
you send it in. Thanks. And, as always, if you don't have a copy of
the book but want to get in on the action, you can look for mistakes
online at:
<http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/>
-Peter
P.S. Note that we can only make small changes to the book--mostly
fixing typos, etc. This is a new printing, not a new edition. That
said, I'm always happy to hear any comments about ways to improve the
book, big or small.
--
Peter Seibel ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
On Tue, 24 May 2005 18:05:47 GMT, Peter Seibel
<·····@gigamonkeys.com> wrote:
>So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
>have a second printing. Besides the good implications this has for how
>sales have been going, it also means that I have a chance to correct
>small errors that appear in the 1st printing. I have to give my fixes
>to Apress by the end of the week so if you have been meaning to write
>to me about any errata, now'd be a good time to do it. I just put up a
>first cut errata list at:
>
Page 11, chapter "Getting Up and Running with Lisp in a Box"..
"grab... appropriate package .... from a Lisp in a Box Web site
listed in Chapter 32"...
In Chapter 32 there is nothing about Lisp in a Box.
It woudl be good to remember that book can be read by people who
have no clue about Lisp, therefore it would be good to be more
specific ragarding how to get Lisp, especially free implementations.
Chapter 2, pages 9 and 10 provide some names, but no single link.
Page 10: "The folks at Franz... are making available a trial version
of their product for use with this book...". It looks like there is
a special version of Franz Lisp that is available for book readers,
but this is not true.
A.L.
Peter Seibel wrote:
> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
> have a second printing. Besides the good implications this has for how
> sales have been going,...
Have you reached break even on your bet trading off early revenue for
later and the right to keep the book online?
kt
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3acmkuwf2.fsf@gigamonkeys.com>
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Peter Seibel wrote:
>> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
>> have a second printing. Besides the good implications this has for how
>> sales have been going,...
>
> Have you reached break even on your bet trading off early revenue for
> later and the right to keep the book online?
Well, I didn't trade early revenue for late revenue; I just gave up
early revenue. So if I'm right, Apress gets a windfall. And if I'm
wrong, I'm doubly screwed. But, absent communication with an alternate
universe where I didn't leave it online, there's no way of knowing
which it is.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3hdgr4zxe.fsf@4dv.net>
Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
>
> Well, I didn't trade early revenue for late revenue; I just gave up
> early revenue. So if I'm right, Apress gets a windfall. And if I'm
> wrong, I'm doubly screwed. But, absent communication with an alternate
> universe where I didn't leave it online, there's no way of knowing
> which it is.
I know that one of the reasons I bought it was that I liked what I saw
online; I know a lot of folks have said the same thing. Of course,
there's no good way to balance that with folks who didn't but it because
it was already available to them.
Regardless, it's a good book.
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Christus surrexit ex mortuis, mortem morte calcans,
Et illis in sepulchris vitam donans!
Peter Seibel wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> > Peter Seibel wrote:
> >> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is
> >> going to have a second printing. Besides the good implications
> >> this has for how sales have been going,...
> >
> > Have you reached break even on your bet trading off early revenue
> > for later and the right to keep the book online?
>
> Well, I didn't trade early revenue for late revenue; I just gave up
> early revenue. So if I'm right, Apress gets a windfall. And if I'm
> wrong, I'm doubly screwed. But, absent communication with an
> alternate universe where I didn't leave it online, there's no way
> of knowing which it is.
Larry Lessig points out about Cory Doctorow's book, which was both
published and released under Creative Commons (Free Culture p.284):
"There are two groups of people out there: (1) those who will buy
Cory's book whether or not it's on the Internet, and (2) those who
may never hear of Cory's book, if it isn't made available for free
on the Internet. Some part of (1) will download Cory's book instead
of buying it. Call them bad-(1)s. Some part of (2) will download
Cory's book, like it, and then decide to buy it. Call them (2)-goods.
If there are more (2)-goods than bad-(1)s, the strategy of releasing
Cory's book free on-line will probably increase sales of Cory's
book.
"Indeed, the experience of his publisher clearly supports that
conclusion. The book's first printing was exhausted months before the
publisher had expected. This first novel of a science fiction author
was a total success.
"The idea that free content might increase the value of nonfree content
was confirmed by the experience of another author. Peter Wayner, who
wrote a book about the free software movement titled Free for All, made
an electronic version of his book free on-line under a Creative Commons
license after the book went out of print. He then monitored used book
store prices for the book. As predicted, as the number of downloads
increased, the used book price for his book increased, as well.
"These are examples of using the Commons to better spread proprietary
content."
Perhaps this may be useful if you wish to formalize your license:
http://creativecommons.org/license/?format=text
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> Larry Lessig points out about Cory Doctorow's book, which was both
> published and released under Creative Commons (Free Culture p.284):
>
> "There are two groups of people out there: (1) those who will buy
> Cory's book whether or not it's on the Internet, and (2) those who
> may never hear of Cory's book, if it isn't made available for free
> on the Internet. Some part of (1) will download Cory's book instead
> of buying it. Call them bad-(1)s. Some part of (2) will download
> Cory's book, like it, and then decide to buy it. Call them (2)-goods.
> If there are more (2)-goods than bad-(1)s, the strategy of releasing
> Cory's book free on-line will probably increase sales of Cory's
> book.
>
> "Indeed, the experience of his publisher clearly supports that
> conclusion. The book's first printing was exhausted months before the
> publisher had expected. This first novel of a science fiction author
> was a total success.
The experience of science fiction publisher Baen Books also
supports the idea that providing free content increases
rather than decreases sales of books.
As Eric Flint (SF author and editor for Baen) explains, books
are a very opaque market. The big problem is getting
attention for your product.
See his comments at:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/45e41ca9887c6586?hl=en
Paul
From: André Thieme
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <d6vtvq$mn9$1@ulric.tng.de>
Peter Seibel schrieb:
> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
> have a second printing.
That's what I was waiting for before ordering my copy of the book :)
Until now I used your website for learning. But, Peter, I convinced my
university to buy a few copies of your book.
Andr�
--
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3mzqkv3ry.fsf@gigamonkeys.com>
Andr� Thieme <······························@justmail.de> writes:
> Peter Seibel schrieb:
>> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
>> have a second printing.
>
> That's what I was waiting for before ordering my copy of the book :)
> Until now I used your website for learning. But, Peter, I convinced my
> university to buy a few copies of your book.
Excellent.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Peter Seibel wrote:
> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
> have a second printing.
Cool. You deserve it - it is a great book.
Svenne
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <1484844.6v0U5sZufK@yahoo.com>
Svenne Krap wrote:
[...]
I'm just curious, what does your family name mean in your language?
alex goldman wrote:
> Svenne Krap wrote:
> [...]
> I'm just curious, what does your family name mean in your language?
Nothing really.
Even though I am danish, I believe it is actually a dutch surname (my
family came from there around 20 generations ago). And yes, it has been
pointed out to me, that my name has meaning in english :)
Svenne
Svenne Krap wrote:
> alex goldman wrote:
>
>> Svenne Krap wrote: [...] I'm just curious, what does your family name
>> mean in your language?
>
>
>
> Nothing really.
>
> Even though I am danish, I believe it is actually a dutch surname (my
> family came from there around 20 generations ago). And yes, it has been
> pointed out to me, that my name has meaning in english :)
Actually, it is the other way around. John Krapper invented the toilet,
leading to both "going to the john" and other popular phrases.
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton wrote:
<snip>
>
> Actually, it is the other way around. John Krapper invented the toilet,
> leading to both "going to the john" and other popular phrases.
>
Hmm, not according to <http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20000221.html>
On Wed, 25 May 2005 15:04:54 -0400, Thomas Gagne wrote:
>
>
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Actually, it is the other way around. John Krapper invented the toilet,
>> leading to both "going to the john" and other popular phrases.
>>
>
> Hmm, not according to <http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20000221.html>
this can't be right, can it?
--
mvh,
Lars Rune Nøstdal
http://lars.nostdal.org/
From: Florian Weimer
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <87k6lndr9b.fsf@deneb.enyo.de>
* alex goldman:
> Svenne Krap wrote:
> [...]
>
> I'm just curious, what does your family name mean in your language?
Probably "madder" or, more precisely, its ground roots.
In article <··············@gigamonkeys.com>, Peter Seibel wrote:
> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going
> to have a second printing.
Cool! Congratulations! So I guess I now have a valuable First
Printing copy of PCL. :)
-- L
On 25 May 2005 02:34:18 -0700, "fireblade" <········@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
>Congratulation Peter , great book looks like that Lisp is slowly
>going mainstream and your book is one of the reasons.
Where is going "mainstream"?...
A.L.
A.L. wrote:
> On 25 May 2005 02:34:18 -0700, "fireblade" <········@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Congratulation Peter , great book looks like that Lisp is slowly
>>going mainstream and your book is one of the reasons.
>
>
> Where is going "mainstream"?...
That would be in the state of mind -- mindshare to be specific -- and we
went there a couple of months ago. The initial posts by newbies indicate
they think Lisp is something reasonable to try, not some crazy thing
they will look at because Paul Graham said so. They also started
mentioning hearing about Lisp from someone at work, instead of PG and/or
fond remembrance of college days.
The tsunami is on the way and on schedule. The Cells and Cello projects
report increased wind velocity. Plywood those windows while you can.
kt
Peter Seibel wrote:
> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
> have a second printing. Besides the good implications this has for how
> sales have been going, it also means that I have a chance to correct
> small errors that appear in the 1st printing. I have to give my fixes
> to Apress by the end of the week so if you have been meaning to write
> to me about any errata, now'd be a good time to do it. I just put up a
> first cut errata list at:
>
> <http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/errata.txt>
>
> so you can check there to see if I already know about something before
> you send it in. Thanks. And, as always, if you don't have a copy of
> the book but want to get in on the action, you can look for mistakes
> online at:
>
> <http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/>
>
> -Peter
>
> P.S. Note that we can only make small changes to the book--mostly
> fixing typos, etc. This is a new printing, not a new edition. That
> said, I'm always happy to hear any comments about ways to improve the
> book, big or small.
>
> --
> Peter Seibel ·····@gigamonkeys.com
>
> Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Nice to hear that Peter , added two copies in our company library
and the response seems well.
I would like to publish some of my company past projects written in
Lisp,
something for the Lispers who finished their first introductory book
and wonder how a real world applications with all their drums and bells
luck
a like.
However writing is easy, convincing bosses and freaky lawyers
to publish the code is a tough part.
···············@lycos.com wrote:
> I would like to publish some of my company past projects written in
> Lisp,
> something for the Lispers who finished their first introductory book
> and wonder how a real world applications with all their drums and bells
> luck
> a like.
Please do! That's exactly what we need more of. Open source is one
thing, but proprietary (gone open) is a whole different ball game.
> However writing is easy, convincing bosses and freaky lawyers
> to publish the code is a tough part.
Don't tell anyone. Just slip a few choice pieces onto the web. ;-)
jonathon wrote:
> ···············@lycos.com wrote:
> > I would like to publish some of my company past projects written in
> > Lisp,
> > something for the Lispers who finished their first introductory book
> > and wonder how a real world applications with all their drums and bells
> > luck
> > a like.
>
> Please do! That's exactly what we need more of. Open source is one
> thing, but proprietary (gone open) is a whole different ball game.
>
> > However writing is easy, convincing bosses and freaky lawyers
> > to publish the code is a tough part.
>
> Don't tell anyone. Just slip a few choice pieces onto the web. ;-)
Things doesn't work that way in the corporate world .
Publishing "intellectual property" without written approval will get
your
ass sued , and guess who'll be the one with deep pockets .
Also the size of the real projects is a problem , even one project with
all
"drums and bells" like fancy gui , boring streams , database
,exceptions
handling , could easily fill a 500 pages book .
You will have a hard time finding publisher.
doug wrote:
> Also the size of the real projects is a problem , even one project with
> all
> "drums and bells" like fancy gui , boring streams , database
> ,exceptions
> handling , could easily fill a 500 pages book .
Indeed , but with some tweaks i could add a half a dozen projects
in something like 600 pages.
> You will have a hard time finding publisher.
I don't need publisher for an ebook , i'll just post it on the net.
Don't get me wrong , i would love to see it printed but even in pdf
would be just fine.
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> A.L. wrote:
> > On 25 May 2005 02:34:18 -0700, "fireblade" <········@YAHOO.COM>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Congratulation Peter , great book looks like that Lisp is slowly
> >>going mainstream and your book is one of the reasons.
> >
> >
> > Where is going "mainstream"?...
>
> That would be in the state of mind -- mindshare to be specific -- and we
> went there a couple of months ago. The initial posts by newbies indicate
> they think Lisp is something reasonable to try, not some crazy thing
> they will look at because Paul Graham said so. They also started
> mentioning hearing about Lisp from someone at work, instead of PG and/or
> fond remembrance of college days.
>
> The tsunami is on the way and on schedule. The Cells and Cello projects
> report increased wind velocity. Plywood those windows while you can.
>
> kt
Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
course to High school juniors so it would be great to meet
programmers whose learned to code with Lisp instead of Basic or Java.
And interesthing projects and nice materials will help to keep the good
wind alive . One of it is definately Peters book.
>Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
>course to High school juniors so it would be great to meet
>programmers whose learned to code with Lisp instead of Basic or Java.
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to
students that have had prior exposure to BASIC; as potential
programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
My first language was Basic , anybody started with Lisp?
I also started with Basic, GWBASIC to be specific , than qbasic,
pascal, ...
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3zmuij62h.fsf@4dv.net>
·············@hotmail.com writes:
>
> My first language was Basic , anybody started with Lisp?
My first language was Basic on the TI 99/4a (or whatever--it's been a
LONG time). I was about 8 or 9 and we'd a subscription to The Electric
Company, which was this kid's magazine which had a column with Basic
programmes. The problem was that they were always for the Commodore 64,
or Apple II, or IBM PC--never for the TI. So I'd sit there trying to
figure out what they were doing, and how to convince the TI to do the
same. Only I had no manuals. Also, instead of a disk drive I had a
tape recorder with a remote control hooked up to the TI.
Life has gotten rather better since then.
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Christus surrexit ex mortuis, | Christ is risen from the dead,
Mortem morte calcans, | Trampling down death by death,
Et illis in sepulchris vitam donans! | And to those in the tombs granting life!
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3fll58F8eud7U1@news.dfncis.de>
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to
> students that have had prior exposure to BASIC; as potential
> programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>
> My first language was Basic , anybody started with Lisp?
Basic programmers find a warm home in Lisp due to the existence of LOOP. ;-)
[Actually, I started with Basic too.. but I don't like loop. :]
mkb.
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> My first language was Basic , anybody started with Lisp?
I started with Basic, too, some 20 years ago on C64 (but switched to
assembler some time later, because Basic was too slow). Perhaps Dijkstra
was right ( http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_Wybe_Dijkstra ), because my
programming style could be better.
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Charles Hoffman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <FD1ne.23449$IC6.7020@attbi_s72>
Frank Buss wrote:
> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>My first language was Basic , anybody started with Lisp?
>
>
> I started with Basic, too, some 20 years ago on C64 (but switched to
> assembler some time later, because Basic was too slow). Perhaps Dijkstra
> was right ( http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_Wybe_Dijkstra ), because my
> programming style could be better.
>
Dijkstra was similarly harsh on COBOL: "The use of COBOL cripples the
mind, and thus its teaching should be regarded as a criminal offense."
--
Charles Hoffman
Computer Science Student
Garage Musician sans garage
Harmless Eccentric
=^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^=
From: Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <87acmhbyw9.fsf@qrnik.zagroda>
·············@hotmail.com writes:
> My first language was Basic , anybody started with Lisp?
I started from Basic too (1985, C64), but my second language was Logo,
which might count as a Lisp :-)
--
__("< Marcin Kowalczyk
\__/ ······@knm.org.pl
^^ http://qrnik.knm.org.pl/~qrczak/
From: Greg Menke
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3oeaxdcgq.fsf@athena.pienet>
My first was Basic on my Atari 800 in 1982 or so, then 6502 assembly,
then Lisp (Interlisp, also on the 800). But to be fair I didn't start
to try to use Lisp seriously until 2000 or so.
Gregm
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3fo49kF8l342U1@individual.net>
Greg Menke wrote:
> My first was Basic on my Atari 800 in 1982 or so, then 6502 assembly,
> then Lisp (Interlisp, also on the 800). But to be fair I didn't start
> to try to use Lisp seriously until 2000 or so.
There was an Interlisp an the Atari 800s? You mean, like in "Interlisp
Machine"?!?
Pascal
--
2nd European Lisp and Scheme Workshop
July 26 - Glasgow, Scotland - co-located with ECOOP 2005
http://lisp-ecoop05.bknr.net/
From: Charles Hoffman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <QB1ne.24002$g66.5261@attbi_s71>
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>>Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
>>course to High school juniors so it would be great to meet
>>programmers whose learned to code with Lisp instead of Basic or Java.
>
>
> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to
> students that have had prior exposure to BASIC; as potential
> programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>
> My first language was Basic , anybody started with Lisp?
>
Likewise, started with Applesoft BASIC on the Apple II, in my youth in
the mid-'80s. Wrote a lot of stuff in it. Maybe it was licky that I
managed to learn Pascal after just a couple years, and even though I
still primarily messed with BASIC after that, the Pascal experience had
a lof of influence thereafter.
--
Charles Hoffman
Computer Science Student
Garage Musician sans garage
Harmless Eccentric
=^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^=
From: Charles Hoffman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <AG1ne.24020$g66.15136@attbi_s71>
Charles Hoffman wrote:
> the mid-'80s. Wrote a lot of stuff in it. Maybe it was licky that I
*lucky
Come to think of it, I did learn Logo sometime in that first couple
years as well...
--
Charles Hoffman
Computer Science Student
Garage Musician sans garage
Harmless Eccentric
=^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^=
Hello!
fireblade <········@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>I also started with Basic, GWBASIC to be specific, than qbasic ,
>pascal...
[posted 3 times]
Was quite detrimental to your ability to master your news reader *g*
Kind regards,
Hannah.
Sorry about that ,i don't use a news reader i'm posting from Google
groups
directly and somettimes i experience some problems with my
internet connection
Hello!
fireblade <········@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>Sorry about that ,i don't use a news reader i'm posting from Google
>groups
>directly
Something you could change.
Kind regards,
Hannah.
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3fkmhiF8akr3U1@news.dfncis.de>
doug wrote:
> Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or as
a substantial outfit in a company or in academics, and in the latter I
see none of it in the last couple years (the almighty Java seemingly
smothering all and everything). Any recent success stories (i.e. new or
significantly increased use of Lisp) here from non-hobbyist camps that
someone is willing to share?
mkb.
P.S.: Don't get me wrong, I don't want to express that programming in a
certain language as a hobby, just for fun or for improving one's
knowledge, is inferior to doing the stuff for money or in academia.
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> doug wrote:
>
> > Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
>
> The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
> presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or as
> a substantial outfit in a company or in academics, and in the latter I
> see none of it in the last couple years (the almighty Java seemingly
> smothering all and everything). Any recent success stories (i.e. new or
> significantly increased use of Lisp) here from non-hobbyist camps that
> someone is willing to share?
>
> mkb.
>
> P.S.: Don't get me wrong, I don't want to express that programming in a
> certain language as a hobby, just for fun or for improving one's
> knowledge, is inferior to doing the stuff for money or in academia.
The company i work for is a c-driven , with so many "Faster is better"
fanatics in the management no other language has a even slightest
chance
to prosper. But i found a way to balance writing in what i want and
what
the bosses want , sketch in Lisp and than rewrite and fine tune in c.
I actually make a career from a new hire to a lead programmer thanks to
Lisp. And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
doug wrote:
> I actually make a career from a new hire to a lead programmer thanks to
> Lisp. And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
Will the candidate in question still obtain good grades when he tells
you that he doesn't like Lisp instead he prefers Haskell or better said
he has a very deep knowledge of functional programming.
I for one would always prefer the one who shares a very deep knowledge
of functional programming paradigms and techniques.
Schwinn-Mountainbike-Driver
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> doug wrote:
>
> > I actually make a career from a new hire to a lead programmer thanks to
> > Lisp. And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> > skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
>
> Will the candidate in question still obtain good grades when he tells
> you that he doesn't like Lisp instead he prefers Haskell or better said
> he has a very deep knowledge of functional programming.
>
> I for one would always prefer the one who shares a very deep knowledge
> of functional programming paradigms and techniques.
>
> Schwinn-Mountainbike-Driver
He's using geometric mean, so if you're not famigliar with Lisp you'll
fail
no matter what's your other scores.
C=100 DB=100 GUI=100 LISP=0
4 ________________
V 100 * 100 * 100 * 0 = 0
On 25 May 2005 23:42:06 -0700, "doug" <···········@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
>I actually make a career from a new hire to a lead programmer thanks to
>Lisp. And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
>skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
In your imagination, I think...
A.L.
On 2005-05-26 08:42:06, doug wrote:
> And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
Oh, the Lisp Paradox at work. :-)
doug wrote:
>Things doesn't work that way in the corporate world .
>Publishing "intellectual property" without written approval will get
>your
>ass sued , and guess who'll be the one with deep pockets .
Why the companies doesn't want to post something dead?
That's worthless something like aged computer or old chairs?
>On 2005-05-26 08:42:06, doug wrote:
>> And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
>> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
>Oh, the Lisp Paradox at work. :-)
What about promotion or raise, any NonLisper got one? :)
>On 2005-05-26 08:42:06, doug wrote:
>> And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
>> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
>Oh, the Lisp Paradox at work. :-)
>>What about promotion or raise, any NonLisper got one? :)
>2 Nope , i'm the evil PHB :)
>if you're allergic to parenthesis , i'm allergic to people allergic to
>paranthesis
You actually decide who to hire , isn't there staff manager or
something a like?
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> >On 2005-05-26 08:42:06, doug wrote:
> >> And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> >> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
> >Oh, the Lisp Paradox at work. :-)
>
>
> >>What about promotion or raise, any NonLisper got one? :)
> >2 Nope , i'm the evil PHB :)
> >if you're allergic to parenthesis , i'm allergic to people allergic to
> >paranthesis
> You actually decide who to hire , isn't there staff manager or
> something a like?
I make tests for various programming tasks , write a table
with a passed candidates showing their "average" and let the others
decide. From my 3 years experience that's allways the 1st or 2nd
from my table. :)
BTW Lisp is one of the exams , and candidates score is calculated
using geometric mean. :)
doug wrote:
> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >On 2005-05-26 08:42:06, doug wrote:
> > >> And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> > >> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
> > >Oh, the Lisp Paradox at work. :-)
> >
> >
> > >>What about promotion or raise, any NonLisper got one? :)
> > >2 Nope , i'm the evil PHB :)
> > >if you're allergic to parenthesis , i'm allergic to people allergic to
> > >paranthesis
> > You actually decide who to hire , isn't there staff manager or
> > something a like?
>
> I make tests for various programming tasks , write a table
> with a passed candidates showing their "average" and let the others
> decide. From my 3 years experience that's allways the 1st or 2nd
> from my table. :)
>
> BTW Lisp is one of the exams , and candidates score is calculated
> using geometric mean. :)
Why don't you just post in your requierements that Lisp is essential to
pass the test
so it will save time and frustrations both for you and potential hires
?
And why do you insisting with Lisp when you said that you're company is
a c-driven ?
You're potentially losing any competent programmer who doesn't do Lisp .
doug wrote:
> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >On 2005-05-26 08:42:06, doug wrote:
> > >> And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> > >> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
> > >Oh, the Lisp Paradox at work. :-)
> >
> >
> > >>What about promotion or raise, any NonLisper got one? :)
> > >2 Nope , i'm the evil PHB :)
> > >if you're allergic to parenthesis , i'm allergic to people allergic to
> > >paranthesis
> > You actually decide who to hire , isn't there staff manager or
> > something a like?
>
> I make tests for various programming tasks , write a table
> with a passed candidates showing their "average" and let the others
> decide. From my 3 years experience that's allways the 1st or 2nd
> from my table. :)
>
> BTW Lisp is one of the exams , and candidates score is calculated
> using geometric mean. :)
You sound very frustrated doug ,you can't hide that behind those
smilies .
I don't know how much do you earn as a lead programmer , but it
obviously hurt your fair judgement when you fell so low to enjoy
bullying .
Your bosses doesn't allow you to code in Lisp , how bad ?
So you prototype in Lisp and rewrite in c.
And you call that easy .That's crup man.
I tried to rewrite a lisp programm in VB and it was pain in the ass.
There was nothing i could use, when you code in Lisp you could think in
any other
language you want , but when you code in Basic you have to think in
Basic period
So unless you have a mortgage or you have to pay tuition for your
children in some fancy
private scholl , consider looking for another job.
You won't earn $120,000 but you'll love your job.
Life is too short to live it in the cubicle.
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <14912719.y0tfsBYpDv@yahoo.com>
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> I don't know how much do you earn as a lead programmer , but it
> obviously hurt your fair judgement when you fell so low to enjoy
> bullying .
On the internet, no one knows you are a doug.
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <1679978.b0H0tVQbY2@yahoo.com>
doug wrote:
> 1 Ask the CEO
> 2 Nope , i'm the evil PHB :)
> if you're allergic to parenthesis , i'm allergic to people allergic to
> paranthesis
The opening or the closing one?
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3fllgcF8bec8U1@news.dfncis.de>
doug wrote:
> I actually make a career from a new hire to a lead programmer thanks to
> Lisp. And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
That's very nice but I suspect there's a much stronger Lisp tradition,
both in industry and academics, in the U.S. in general, than here in
Europe. Here in Germany, for example, from what I've seen, academics
have been on the Pascal rails for a very long time, while in the U.S.
people have been doing lots of Lisp. That might contribute to the
scarcity of Lisp usage here...
mkb.
Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> writes:
> doug wrote:
>
> > I actually make a career from a new hire to a lead programmer thanks to
> > Lisp. And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
> > skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
>
> That's very nice but I suspect there's a much stronger Lisp tradition,
> both in industry and academics, in the U.S. in general, than here in
> Europe. Here in Germany, for example, from what I've seen, academics
> have been on the Pascal rails for a very long time, while in the U.S.
> people have been doing lots of Lisp. That might contribute to the
> scarcity of Lisp usage here...
"Hmmm," he says doubtfully from his new location in Munich, Germany.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <4296202A.5060405@incubus.de>
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>Europe. Here in Germany, for example, from what I've seen, academics
>>have been on the Pascal rails for a very long time, while in the U.S.
>>people have been doing lots of Lisp. That might contribute to the
>>scarcity of Lisp usage here...
>
> "Hmmm," he says doubtfully from his new location in Munich, Germany.
One isn't a crowd.. ;)
mkb.
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>
>>> Europe. Here in Germany, for example, from what I've seen, academics
>>> have been on the Pascal rails for a very long time, while in the U.S.
>>> people have been doing lots of Lisp. That might contribute to the
>>> scarcity of Lisp usage here...
>
> >
>
>> "Hmmm," he says doubtfully from his new location in Munich, Germany.
>
>
> One isn't a crowd.. ;)
>
> mkb.
>
Do two make a crowd? :)
Peter
--
pet project: http://dawn.netcologne.de
homepage: http://www.peter-herth.de
lisp stuff: http://www.peter-herth.de/lisp.html
get Ltk here: http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/
Peter Herth <·······@t-online.de> writes:
> Matthias Buelow wrote:
>> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>
>>>> Europe. Here in Germany, for example, from what I've seen,
>>>> academics have been on the Pascal rails for a very long time,
>>>> while in the U.S. people have been doing lots of Lisp. That might
>>>> contribute to the scarcity of Lisp usage here...
>> >
>>
>>> "Hmmm," he says doubtfully from his new location in Munich, Germany.
>> One isn't a crowd.. ;)
>> mkb.
>>
>
> Do two make a crowd? :)
>
> Peter
No. But certainly three. Count me in. But - I am also running a
company on mmy own (started in 2004 and we are now at three
employees - but only me beginning to do Lisp for real, customer-paid
projects).
Frank
Leinfelden-Echterdingen, nr Stuttgart, Germany
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <················@t-online.de> writes:
> Peter Herth <·······@t-online.de> writes:
>> Matthias Buelow wrote:
>>> One isn't a crowd.. ;)
>> Do two make a crowd? :)
> No. But certainly three.
And friends they may thinks it's a movement.
Running Bare <············@gmail.com> writes:
> Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <················@t-online.de> writes:
> > Peter Herth <·······@t-online.de> writes:
> >> Matthias Buelow wrote:
> >>> One isn't a crowd.. ;)
> >> Do two make a crowd? :)
> > No. But certainly three.
>
> And friends they may thinks it's a movement.
Hey, there's more where that list came from :-)
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> Running Bare <············@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Frank Goenninger DG1SBG <················@t-online.de> writes:
>>
>>>Peter Herth <·······@t-online.de> writes:
>>>
>>>>Matthias Buelow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>One isn't a crowd.. ;)
>>>>
>>>>Do two make a crowd? :)
>>>
>>>No. But certainly three.
>>
>>And friends they may thinks it's a movement.
>
>
> Hey, there's more where that list came from :-)
>
we'll need 8x10 glossy color photos as evidence of that.
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <7366863.LtaBo8FaAA@yahoo.com>
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> /|_ .-----------------------.
> ,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
> ,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
> / / | death penalty! |
> ( -. | `-----------------------'
> | ) |
> (`-. '--.)
> `. )----'
You really want Mumia to go free and kill again?
From: Coby Beck
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <SLnme.23295$on1.2217@clgrps13>
"alex goldman" <·····@spamm.er> wrote in message
·······················@yahoo.com...
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>
>> /|_ .-----------------------.
>> ,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
>> ,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
>> / / | death penalty! |
>> ( -. | `-----------------------'
>> | ) |
>> (`-. '--.)
>> `. )----'
>
> You really want Mumia to go free and kill again?
Presumably he believes he is innocent.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
From: David Trudgett
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3y89xlqps.fsf@rr.trudgett>
"Coby Beck" <·····@mercury.bc.ca> writes:
> "alex goldman" <·····@spamm.er> wrote in message
> ·······················@yahoo.com...
>> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>
>>> /|_ .-----------------------.
>>> ,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
>>> ,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
>>> / / | death penalty! |
>>> ( -. | `-----------------------'
>>> | ) |
>>> (`-. '--.)
>>> `. )----'
>>
>> You really want Mumia to go free and kill again?
>
> Presumably he believes he is innocent.
A good bet.
Also, there are two statements there. The second presumably implies he
believes there are ways to deal with offenders besides murdering
them. He would be correct in that.
David
--
David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/
Perhaps we have reached a point in history that will separate the
decent from the indecent -- a time when the disconnect between the
agenda being pursued and the interests of the people has grown so
enormous that lies will only continue to sell the system to those who
want to be lied to.
-- David McGowan, April 2003.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr34.html
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <1274959.Fg1DsthWs3@yahoo.com>
David Trudgett wrote:
> "Coby Beck" <·····@mercury.bc.ca> writes:
>
>> "alex goldman" <·····@spamm.er> wrote in message
>> ·······················@yahoo.com...
>>> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>>
>>>> /|_ .-----------------------.
>>>> ,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
>>>> ,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
>>>> / / | death penalty! |
>>>> ( -. | `-----------------------'
>>>> | ) |
>>>> (`-. '--.)
>>>> `. )----'
>>>
>>> You really want Mumia to go free and kill again?
>>
>> Presumably he believes he is innocent.
>
> A good bet.
>
> Also, there are two statements there. The second presumably implies he
> believes there are ways to deal with offenders besides murdering
> them.
Like freeing them. See above.
> He would be correct in that.
I hope you don't vote where I live.
From: David Trudgett
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3d5r9lnst.fsf@rr.trudgett>
alex goldman <·····@spamm.er> writes:
> I hope you don't vote where I live.
Hi Alex!
There's not much chance of that, so rest easy! To vote would be to
agree that (a) the system is legitimate; and (b) the system can change
the system.
David
--
David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/
Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning
people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as
applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to
improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of
their own. The harm done by ordinary criminals, murderers, gangsters,
and thieves is negligible in comparison with the agony inflicted upon
human beings by the professional do-gooders, who attempt to set
themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their
views on all others - with the abiding assurance that the end
justifies the means.
-- Henry Grady Weaver (author),
(from The Mainspring of Human Progress)
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3g14icF9vdtiU1@news.dfncis.de>
alex goldman wrote:
> Like freeing them. See above.
Well.. 23 years are more than long enough for simple murder, imho. Here
in Germany, a "lifelong sentence" means 15 years. If you want to lock
up someone for longer, because he remains a danger to society (sexually
perverted child murderers etc.), you'd have to use preventive detention
(which is not a "punishment") and that is re-evaluated by psychologists
on a regular schedule. Everone should have a second chance. Of course,
the death "penalty" is a totally unacceptable barbarianism.
mkb.
Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> wrote
> Well.. 23 years are more than long enough for simple murder, imho.
One would think so. Hours ago, a convicted murderer, Annika Deasy,
was denied parole for the third time. Well, she didn't actually
murder anyone, but the real killer committed suicide in custody.
Since one of the victims was a police officer, someone had to pay for
it, and they chose the murderer's girlfriend instead. She has
currently served 24 years for a crime she didn't commit, and it's
quite possible she will stay in prison for life.
That's how justice is spelled in California.
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <5908370.g3vXLNy0de@yahoo.com>
Peter Lewerin wrote:
> Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> wrote
>
>> Well.. 23 years are more than long enough for simple murder, imho.
>
> One would think so. Hours ago, a convicted murderer, Annika Deasy,
> was denied parole for the third time. Well, she didn't actually
> murder anyone, but the real killer committed suicide in custody.
> Since one of the victims was a police officer, someone had to pay for
> it, and they chose the murderer's girlfriend instead. She has
> currently served 24 years for a crime she didn't commit, and it's
> quite possible she will stay in prison for life.
>
> That's how justice is spelled in California.
Ooooh! Evil, racist, barbaric California, run by a Republican son of a Nazi!
Look, LAPD just framed a completely innocent guy for attempted homicide:
http://mediafetcher.com/?p=91&page=2
alex goldman <·····@spamm.er> wrote
> Ooooh! Evil, racist, barbaric California, run by a Republican son of a Nazi!
>
> Look, LAPD just framed a completely innocent guy for attempted homicide:
> http://mediafetcher.com/?p=91&page=2
Grow up.
From: Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <87r7fme43c.fsf@qrnik.zagroda>
·············@swipnet.se (Peter Lewerin) writes:
> Well, she didn't actually murder anyone, but the real killer
> committed suicide in custody. Since one of the victims was a police
> officer, someone had to pay for it, and they chose the murderer's
> girlfriend instead.
You are suggesting that the only connection between her and the murder
was that she was the murderer's girlfriend, which is false.
http://groups.msn.com/PRISONLONGHOUSE/cathestoryofannikastlundincarceratedinusa.msnw
--
__("< Marcin Kowalczyk
\__/ ······@knm.org.pl
^^ http://qrnik.knm.org.pl/~qrczak/
Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk <······@knm.org.pl> wrote
> > officer, someone had to pay for it, and they chose the murderer's
> > girlfriend instead.
>
> You are suggesting that the only connection between her and the murder
> was that she was the murderer's girlfriend, which is false.
I'm not suggesting that this was the only connection. I'm stating the
fact that she was *convicted* because she was the murderer's
girlfriend. The verdict was that she played a passive role in the
murders, but as the murderer's girlfriend she was still accountable
for his actions.
Whatever. Suppose she *could* be considered guilty, suppose she had
committed the murders on her own, a sentence of 25 years to life is
still absurdly long.
I'm going to respond exactly once to your completely
forum-inappropriate response to my sig. After that, I'm ignoring your
ignorant self.
alex goldman <·····@spamm.er> writes:
> You really want Mumia to go free
Yes, just as in another day I would have been calling for Sacco's and
Venzetti's freedom, and Huey Newton's.
> and kill again?
You must either be extremely ignorant or extremely backwards. My
money's on the latter.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <5822921.BXyoos6Jd3@yahoo.com>
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> I'm going to respond exactly once to your completely
> forum-inappropriate response to my sig. After that, I'm ignoring your
> ignorant self.
>
> alex goldman <·····@spamm.er> writes:
>
>> You really want Mumia to go free
>
> Yes, just as in another day I would have been calling for Sacco's and
> Venzetti's freedom, and Huey Newton's.
>
>> and kill again?
>
> You must either be extremely ignorant or extremely backwards. My
> money's on the latter.
>
> /|_ .-----------------------.
> ,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
> ,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
> / / | death penalty! |
> ( -. | `-----------------------'
> | ) |
> (`-. '--.)
> `. )----'
Typical... Call everyone who disagrees with you ignorant, backwards, racist.
Provide no facts or arguments. Repeat.
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3g3c2aFae6mdU1@news.dfncis.de>
alex goldman wrote:
> Typical... Call everyone who disagrees with you ignorant, backwards, racist.
> Provide no facts or arguments. Repeat.
In the best Usenet tradition, of course.
mkb.
On Thu, 26 May 2005 21:14:50 +0200, Matthias Buelow wrote:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>
>>>Europe. Here in Germany, for example, from what I've seen, academics
>>>have been on the Pascal rails for a very long time, while in the U.S.
>>>people have been doing lots of Lisp. That might contribute to the
>>>scarcity of Lisp usage here...
> >
>> "Hmmm," he says doubtfully from his new location in Munich, Germany.
>
> One isn't a crowd.. ;)
I'm a crowd member too - Freiburg. And, AFAIK there's been a lot of Lisp
(Scheme mostly) in university teaching. That has been replaced lately by
strongly typed functional languages (Haskell mainly).
Ralf Mattes
> mkb.
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3fpgirF91p2sU1@news.dfncis.de>
R. Mattes wrote:
> I'm a crowd member too - Freiburg. And, AFAIK there's been a lot of Lisp
> (Scheme mostly) in university teaching. That has been replaced lately by
> strongly typed functional languages (Haskell mainly).
Hmm.. where? At uni-wuerzburg.de, most, if not all seems to have been
replaced by Java by now (C, C++, Lisp, Caml-Light, ...), except in some
old Windows-C++-projects with a significant code base that are still
being developed. But then again, I've never seen Scheme here either
(only some Common Lisp).
mkb.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3fqr50F9801bU1@individual.net>
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> R. Mattes wrote:
>
>> I'm a crowd member too - Freiburg. And, AFAIK there's been a lot of Lisp
>> (Scheme mostly) in university teaching. That has been replaced lately by
>> strongly typed functional languages (Haskell mainly).
>
>
> Hmm.. where? At uni-wuerzburg.de, most, if not all seems to have been
> replaced by Java by now (C, C++, Lisp, Caml-Light, ...), except in some
> old Windows-C++-projects with a significant code base that are still
> being developed. But then again, I've never seen Scheme here either
> (only some Common Lisp).
tu-braunschweig.de is mostly Java, though I also enjoyed a bit of
Scheme there (not sure if they still do that). uni-oldenburg.de
uses Java pretty much exclusively. Both also do some C++ (not
teaching, but using).
Haven't ever seen Haskell, CL, Forth, Smalltalk, ML ... anywhere.
--
Don't let school interfere with your education. -- Mark Twain
From: Charles Hoffman
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <Rq1ne.23384$IC6.9097@attbi_s72>
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> R. Mattes wrote:
>
>> I'm a crowd member too - Freiburg. And, AFAIK there's been a lot of Lisp
>> (Scheme mostly) in university teaching. That has been replaced lately by
>> strongly typed functional languages (Haskell mainly).
>
>
> Hmm.. where? At uni-wuerzburg.de, most, if not all seems to have been
> replaced by Java by now (C, C++, Lisp, Caml-Light, ...), except in some
> old Windows-C++-projects with a significant code base that are still
> being developed. But then again, I've never seen Scheme here either
> (only some Common Lisp).
>
> mkb.
Perhaps depends on which courses you take. At University of Northern
Iowa where I currently attend, CS I was in Java when I started, recently
gone (backwards, in my opinion) to C++, but there seems to be some
interest in Python of late... CS III (Data Structures) is done in Ada
95. A little MIPS assembly exposure in Comp. Org. After you do the
requirements, you're likely to end up picking up C if you take Operating
Systems, possibly Mumps if you take Information Storage & Retrieval, VB
.NET is foisted upon Software Engineering classes without any teaching,
and Scheme is taught as part of Programming Language Paradigms.
--ch--
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3g4n9eFad3d9U2@news.dfncis.de>
Charles Hoffman wrote:
> Systems, possibly Mumps if you take Information Storage & Retrieval, VB
> .NET is foisted upon Software Engineering classes without any teaching,
> and Scheme is taught as part of Programming Language Paradigms.
VB.NET...!
man, that's bad. give me java any day, all day instead.
mkb.
On Thu, 26 May 2005 12:08:24 +0200, Matthias Buelow wrote:
> doug wrote:
>
>> I actually make a career from a new hire to a lead programmer thanks to
>> Lisp. And everytime i do an interview with candidates , beside their c
>> skill knowing Lisp is a must to get a good grade from me .
>
> That's very nice but I suspect there's a much stronger Lisp tradition,
> both in industry and academics, in the U.S. in general, than here in
> Europe. Here in Germany, for example, from what I've seen, academics
> have been on the Pascal rails for a very long time, while in the U.S.
> people have been doing lots of Lisp. That might contribute to the
> scarcity of Lisp usage here...
Hmm, here in Austria there seems to be quite some Lisp tradition in
academia, the strongest probably with the RISC (Research Institute for
Symbolic Computation) near Linz, but in industry you're very lucky to get
a job where you can use Python, let alone Lisp. For many small to medium
companies, any language not endorsed by Microsoft, plus maybe Delphi and,
if it's a Unix/Web shop, PHP and Perl is considered "exotic". I'm hoping
to change that (in the longer term) at my next job (starting next Monday),
where I'll build up application infrastructure and later a team, but a (or
rather *the*) requirement is that I use C# effectively exclusively. The
biggest problem seems to be that many programmers won't even know of
"those special open source languages" (never mind that Common Lisp has got
strong commercial implementations), while you can always hire tons of C#
or Java programmers.
--
Christopher
Christopher Koppler wrote:
> Hmm, here in Austria there seems to be quite some Lisp tradition in
> academia, the strongest probably with the RISC (Research Institute for
> Symbolic Computation) near Linz, but in industry you're very lucky to get
> a job where you can use Python, let alone Lisp. For many small to medium
> companies, any language not endorsed by Microsoft, plus maybe Delphi and,
> if it's a Unix/Web shop, PHP and Perl is considered "exotic". I'm hoping
> to change that (in the longer term) at my next job (starting next Monday),
> where I'll build up application infrastructure and later a team, but a (or
> rather *the*) requirement is that I use C# effectively exclusively. The
> biggest problem seems to be that many programmers won't even know of
> "those special open source languages" (never mind that Common Lisp has got
> strong commercial implementations), while you can always hire tons of C#
> or Java programmers.
But isn't it interesting that a whole lot of projects can be realized
by means of lesser programming languages?
That is the interesting aspect from the lessons. I have absolutely no
clue how I would be off just in case I had to perform all my models and
computations in C++ and not in my beloved Bigloo. However, but the
interesting part: there are people out there who will think the same
about Bigloo and are comfortable with C++.
Falstaff Brasil Cigarillo
PS: Be happy not being forced to use any Python or Forth. Torture where
it belongs but not in everyday programming.
On Sat, 28 May 2005 10:34:31 -0700, weeds123weeds wrote:
> Christopher Koppler wrote:
>
>> biggest problem seems to be that many programmers won't even know of
>> "those special open source languages" (never mind that Common Lisp has got
>> strong commercial implementations), while you can always hire tons of C#
>> or Java programmers.
>
> But isn't it interesting that a whole lot of projects can be realized
> by means of lesser programming languages?
Sure, but a whole lot of projects are realized over budget, way behind
schedule and/or after the nth attempt by the mth team. While quite a few
other factors contribute to that, the programming language is still the
primary tool of the programmer, and I do believe that better tools get
better results.
> That is the interesting aspect from the lessons. I have absolutely no
> clue how I would be off just in case I had to perform all my models and
> computations in C++ and not in my beloved Bigloo. However, but the
> interesting part: there are people out there who will think the same
> about Bigloo and are comfortable with C++.
>
> Falstaff Brasil Cigarillo
> PS: Be happy not being forced to use any Python or Forth. Torture where
> it belongs but not in everyday programming.
I have enjoyed using Python in a production environment (well, the
alternative was Perl) combined with C, Java and PL/SQL (and I very
much didn't enjoy the Java part - *that* was torture). And while I haven't
used Forth for a long time, and then only for toy programs, I quite liked
the way it works. Much better high-level assembler than C IMHO.
--
Christopher
Hello!
Christopher Koppler <········@chello.at> wrote:
>[...]
>"those special open source languages" (never mind that Common Lisp has got
>strong commercial implementations), while you can always hire tons of C#
>or Java programmers.
I know... The same argument was used against Erlang (and other
non-mainstream languages) recently, with the statement that the
boss had 80 C++ programmers at hand, but how would one acquire
80 Erlang (Lisp, whatever) programmers... Now, first, he couldn't
actually *show* 80 C++ programmers, nor that all C++ programmers
would be able to grasp the concepts of all of our existing C++
code. Since then, the 80 C++ programmers have become a running
gag (sometimes exaggerated into 800), with which he is sometimes
teased.
At least there's a somewhat relaxed atmosphere here so one
*can* actually tease the boss with things like that w/o fearing
bad consequences.
Kind regards,
Hannah.
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <vf3zwy9n.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
······@schlund.de (Hannah Schroeter) writes:
> I know... The same argument was used against Erlang (and other
> non-mainstream languages) recently, with the statement that the
> boss had 80 C++ programmers at hand, but how would one acquire
> 80 Erlang (Lisp, whatever) programmers... Now, first, he couldn't
> actually *show* 80 C++ programmers, nor that all C++ programmers
> would be able to grasp the concepts of all of our existing C++
> code.
It is somewhat horrifying to imagine the amount of damage 80 C++
programmers could do.
Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
> It is somewhat horrifying to imagine the amount of damage 80 C++
> programmers could do.
I once worked on a project with 140 (yes, one hundred and forty
C++ coders). Most of them were new hires working for a well-known
system integrator and didn't actually have enough training to be
productive. To allow them to create working code, the well-known SI
provided them with a fill-in-the-blanks interface -- written in
Microsoft Word. They threw a big party when the codebase reached a
million lines.
You just can't make this stuff up....
Patrick
------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc. | The experts in large scale distributed OO
| systems design and implementation.
···@spe.com | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, CORBA, UML)
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> doug wrote:
>
>> Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
>
>
> The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
> presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or as
> a substantial outfit in a company or in academics, and in the latter I
> see none of it in the last couple years (the almighty Java seemingly
> smothering all and everything). Any recent success stories (i.e. new or
> significantly increased use of Lisp) here from non-hobbyist camps that
> someone is willing to share?
>
Sure, CliniSys. Clinical drug trial management. Don't ask. It is a big
problem. Sites by FDA requirement must operate independently of the drug
sponsor in conducting trials, which the FDA further want conducted in
precise fashion and with elaborate documentation. Investigators are busy
people and often screw up. Monitors from the sponsor visit every six
weeks to corral things temporarily.
Our mission was to bring everything under control with a thick client
installed at the site guiding sites thru the process, enforcing business
rules, and basically seeing to it that the whole process runs right
while documenting everything and with a precise audit trail of that
process and documentation. The thick client also meant we needed a
sophisticated application-level partial replication scheme to move
clinical and audit data around a wide-area network of collaborating
trial professionals.
The hard part is that every trial is different. Even within a trial, the
documentation can vary from site to site. On the wish list is
customizing documentation to individual patients to support adaptable
trials. To make things worse, the documentation can change in the middle
of a trial, but data collected under one version of a document must
remain associated with that version as other versions come along.
And getting the documentation right means applying arbitrarily
sophisticated edits. eg, The pregnancy test result on Visit 2 is
required if the gender collected at Visit 1 was female, otherwise it
must be "Not applicable".
The final challenge is scaling any successful result to hundreds of
trials a year. Existing software does a small fraction of our intended
functionality and is so hard to configure to each trial that (a) they
can get $500k to do a big trial and (b) vendors max out at a couple
dozen trials a year. They hope sponsors will run the software (they call
it "technology transfer") and figure out how to configure the software
themselves faster than could the vendor. They do worse, and a lot of
these vendors go out of business.
So we needed to do WYSIWYG DTP, ICR (scanning and reading documents),
our own DBMS, workgroup software to support remote monitoring, and a
full browser app for reviewing and collaborating on the documentation
set. ie, we needed a GUI, too.
I knew right away that we would have to be able to configure the
application for a new trial without programming. Well, there would be a
scripting language, but it would be the kind of thing power users master
all the time. I also figured out pretty quickly that it would be easier
to make a programmable application with a programmable language.
The project was two years old and $2m spent when I signed on to take
over software development. My predecessor had just quit. In an exit
interview I determined that he was making the right move for himself,
but that I would like the gig.
The angel founder trusted me to use the right software, which only makes
sense since he was betting $3m on me succeeding. I brought on one other
person and in four man years we produced a system that was vastly
superior to systems built with tens of millions of dollars. 80kloc Lisp.
People in the business agree our system will revolutionize the conduct
of clinical trials. Some nice big partners have joined the effort to
make our case to our first customer. That helps since it is a little
stange for a three-person operation to have done what no one else even
thought possible (which is why they were all trying to use the Web to
solve the problem). Making progress, though. Close brushes more often
<g> getting both customer and investment.
How did we do it? First, I had done this programmable application thing
a couple times before. Second, Common Lisp. Third, Cells. Fourth,
AllegroCL's AllegroStore database. Fifth, AllegroCL's IDE and Franz tech
support.
kenny
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> How did we do it? First, I had done this programmable application thing
> a couple times before. Second, Common Lisp. Third, Cells. Fourth,
> AllegroCL's AllegroStore database. Fifth, AllegroCL's IDE and Franz tech
> support.
Fantastic story. I'm hungry for details.
Questions:
1. You mentioned a browser but also a thick-client. Is it both?
2. Did you use lots of macros? ;-)
3. What is the platform?
jonathon wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>
>>How did we do it? First, I had done this programmable application thing
>>a couple times before. Second, Common Lisp. Third, Cells. Fourth,
>>AllegroCL's AllegroStore database. Fifth, AllegroCL's IDE and Franz tech
>>support.
Sixth, I had already rolled my own GUI using Lisp and Cells and so had a
running start when the project came in.
>
>
> Fantastic story. I'm hungry for details.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. You mentioned a browser but also a thick-client. Is it both?
Yes. I meant we wrote our own thick-client trial browser, "browser" just
being a metaphor.
> 2. Did you use lots of macros? ;-)
(a) I do not use macros. I program efficiently and at as high a level of
abstraction as possible. Sometimes macros help at that.
(b) six hundred plus.
> 3. What is the platform?
WinNT/2K for now.
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
From: André Thieme
Subject: Re: CliniSys [was Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing]
Date:
Message-ID: <d74fj2$k5r$1@ulric.tng.de>
Kenny Tilton schrieb:
>> 2. Did you use lots of macros? ;-)
>
>
> (a) I do not use macros. I program efficiently and at as high a level of
> abstraction as possible. Sometimes macros help at that.
No?
No defun, defclass, when, etc.?
I am using macros all the time...
Andr�
--
André Thieme wrote:
> Kenny Tilton schrieb:
>
> >> 2. Did you use lots of macros? ;-)
> >
> >
> > (a) I do not use macros. I program efficiently and at as high a level of
> > abstraction as possible. Sometimes macros help at that.
>
> No?
> No defun, defclass, when, etc.?
> I am using macros all the time...
No defmacro i assume .
What do you have against macros ?
It's one of my favourite Lisp features
····@lycos.com wrote:
> André Thieme wrote:
> > Kenny Tilton schrieb:
> > >> 2. Did you use lots of macros? ;-)
> > >
> > > (a) I do not use macros. I program efficiently and at as
> > > high a level of abstraction as possible. Sometimes macros
> > > help at that.
> >
> > No?
> > No defun, defclass, when, etc.?
> > I am using macros all the time...
>
> No defmacro i assume .
> What do you have against macros ?
> It's one of my favourite Lisp features
Presumably he means he tries to code well, not with the biased
intention to "use macros", but willing to use macros when appropriate.
The macro is one of the most obvious features not present in other
languages, and that often leads to an overfocus on this poor innocent
feature.
Adam Smith (who economists love misquoting) pointed out that people in
wine-poor regions often suffer from drunkenness; when they visit a
wine-rich region they temporarily debauch themselves because of good
wine's novelty. Then they largely sober up, like the rest of the
population who are used to plentiful wine.
"It deserves to be remarked too, that, if we consult experience, the
cheapness of wine seems to be a cause, not of drunkenness, but of
sobriety. The inhabitants of the wine countries are in general the
soberest people in Europe; witness the Spainards, the Italians, and the
inhabitants of the southern provinces of France. People are seldom
guilty of excess in what is their daily fare. Nobody affects the
character of liberality and good fellowship by being profuse of a
liquor which is as cheap as small beer. On the contrary, in the
countries which, either from excessive heat or cold, produce no grapes,
and where wine consequently is dear and a rarity, drunkenness is a
common vice, as among the northern nations, and all those who live
between the tropics, the negroes, for example, on the coast of Guinea.
When a French regiment comes from some of the northern provinces of
France, where wine is somewhat dear, to be quartered in the southern,
where it is very cheap, the soldiers, I have frequently heard it
observed are at first debauched by the cheapness and novelty of good
wine; but after a few months residence, the greater part of them become
as sober as the rest of the inhabitants."
-- Adam Smith "Wealth of Nations", Book IV, Ch. 3
Tayssir
That's not what he said :
He said:I do not use macros.
If you notice pattern , few functions who look a like
won't you write a macro to save yourself from typing same
boring layout again and again?
From: M Jared Finder
Subject: Re: CliniSys [was Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing]
Date:
Message-ID: <hoadnXCyR8g5dAjfRVn-sg@speakeasy.net>
····@lycos.com wrote:
> That's not what he said :
> He said:I do not use macros.
Followed immediately by "(b) six hundred plus", and I don't think Kenny
was referring to the number of sales of his application.
-- MJF
M Jared Finder wrote:
> ····@lycos.com wrote:
> > That's not what he said :
> > He said:I do not use macros.
>
> Followed immediately by "(b) six hundred plus", and I don't think Kenny
> was referring to the number of sales of his application.
>
> -- MJF
What exactly was the budget for his apllication? 3M?
I'm finding hard to fallow his thoughts.
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> M Jared Finder wrote:
> > ····@lycos.com wrote:
> > > That's not what he said :
> > > He said:I do not use macros.
> >
> > Followed immediately by "(b) six hundred plus", and I don't think Kenny
> > was referring to the number of sales of his application.
> >
> > -- MJF
> What exactly was the budget for his apllication? 3M?
> I'm finding hard to fallow his thoughts.
Oh forgeth it ,i drinked too many bears.
(quit)
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>M Jared Finder wrote:
>>
>>>····@lycos.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>That's not what he said :
>>>>He said:I do not use macros.
>>>
>>>Followed immediately by "(b) six hundred plus", and I don't think Kenny
>>>was referring to the number of sales of his application.
>>>
>>> -- MJF
>>
>>What exactly was the budget for his apllication? 3M?
>>I'm finding hard to fallow his thoughts.
Those details are not so important. Just remember the Lisp effort was a
hundred times more effective than prior C++ and Java efforts.
As for one possible source of confusion, recall that I came in after two
years of money had been sunk into a failed effort. Obviously even more
was going to be sunk into the thing before it would be finished, so the
total at risk is greater than the amount that went into the result.
(Nothing done before my arrival was usable.)
kenny
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
From: André Thieme
Subject: Re: CliniSys [was Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing]
Date:
Message-ID: <d75oi4$o7m$4@ulric.tng.de>
Kenny Tilton schrieb:
>
>
> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> M Jared Finder wrote:
>>>
>>>> ····@lycos.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's not what he said :
>>>>> He said:I do not use macros.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Followed immediately by "(b) six hundred plus", and I don't think Kenny
>>>> was referring to the number of sales of his application.
>>>>
>>>> -- MJF
>>>
>>>
>>> What exactly was the budget for his apllication? 3M?
>>> I'm finding hard to fallow his thoughts.
>
>
> Those details are not so important. Just remember the Lisp effort was a
> hundred times more effective than prior C++ and Java efforts.
>
> As for one possible source of confusion, recall that I came in after two
> years of money had been sunk into a failed effort. Obviously even more
> was going to be sunk into the thing before it would be finished, so the
> total at risk is greater than the amount that went into the result.
> (Nothing done before my arrival was usable.)
The problem with this issue is: perhaps you are just a damn brilliant
programmer and you could have finished that program in any language. We
can't have a proof I guess, right?
Andr�
--
Andr� Thieme wrote:
> Kenny Tilton schrieb:
>
>>
>>
>> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> M Jared Finder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ····@lycos.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not what he said :
>>>>>> He said:I do not use macros.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Followed immediately by "(b) six hundred plus", and I don't think
>>>>> Kenny
>>>>> was referring to the number of sales of his application.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- MJF
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What exactly was the budget for his apllication? 3M?
>>>> I'm finding hard to fallow his thoughts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Those details are not so important. Just remember the Lisp effort was
>> a hundred times more effective than prior C++ and Java efforts.
>>
>> As for one possible source of confusion, recall that I came in after
>> two years of money had been sunk into a failed effort. Obviously even
>> more was going to be sunk into the thing before it would be finished,
>> so the total at risk is greater than the amount that went into the
>> result. (Nothing done before my arrival was usable.)
>
>
> The problem with this issue is: perhaps you are just a damn brilliant
> programmer and you could have finished that program in any language. We
> can't have a proof I guess, right?
(1) With all the "refactoring" I do, I cannot be that brilliant. This
application may have been written three times. Of course, we had no idea
what program we were writing in the classic Grahamian sense, so
refactoring is ot be expected.
(2) I have programmed in C as much as I have CL, hours-wise that is. I
do not think we need a controlled study to tell us CL is 5-10 times more
productive. And I guarantee Cells is 5-10 times more productive than
non-Cells. A hundred times productivity improvement follows naturally
from even one order magnitude improvement in tool productivity and the
myth of the man-month. What would we do with C++? Hire 10-20 people
instead of two? Write specs for them all? Hold meetings? Ooops, better
hire 40. Now we are really going slow, so.... well, this is where big
projects with dozens of millions already spent get cancelled.
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Andr� Thieme <······························@justmail.de> writes:
> The problem with this issue is: perhaps you are just a damn brilliant
> programmer and you could have finished that program in any language. We
> can't have a proof I guess, right?
I hear this argument all the time, but why is it that the
opinion of the supposedly brilliant programmers as to which
language is better and why is never accepted?
Alain Picard wrote:
> Andr� Thieme <······························@justmail.de> writes:
>
>> The problem with this issue is: perhaps you are just a damn brilliant
>> programmer and you could have finished that program in any language. We
>> can't have a proof I guess, right?
>
> I hear this argument all the time, but why is it that the
> opinion of the supposedly brilliant programmers as to which
> language is better and why is never accepted?
Because opinions vary?
http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/icfpcontest/proclamation.html
:-)
{hiding}
alex goldman wrote:
> Alain Picard wrote:
>
>
>>Andr� Thieme <······························@justmail.de> writes:
>>
>>
>>>The problem with this issue is: perhaps you are just a damn brilliant
>>>programmer and you could have finished that program in any language. We
>>>can't have a proof I guess, right?
>>
>>I hear this argument all the time, but why is it that the
>>opinion of the supposedly brilliant programmers as to which
>>language is better and why is never accepted?
>
>
> Because opinions vary?
>
> http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/icfpcontest/proclamation.html
>
Yes, but that team had the project cancelled out from under them at $100m.
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Alain Picard wrote:
> Andr� Thieme <······························@justmail.de> writes:
>
>
>>The problem with this issue is: perhaps you are just a damn brilliant
>>programmer and you could have finished that program in any language. We
>>can't have a proof I guess, right?
>
>
> I hear this argument all the time, but why is it that the
> opinion of the supposedly brilliant programmers as to which
> language is better and why is never accepted?
>
We might have settled on Lisp /by mistake/. :)
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Alain Picard wrote:
| > I hear this argument all the time, but why is it that the
| > opinion of the supposedly brilliant programmers as to which
| > language is better and why is never accepted?
|
| We might have settled on Lisp /by mistake/. :)
+---------------
By "mistake"? Never. By accident, maybe... ;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Alain Picard schrieb:
> Andr� Thieme <······························@justmail.de> writes:
>
>
>>The problem with this issue is: perhaps you are just a damn brilliant
>>programmer and you could have finished that program in any language. We
>>can't have a proof I guess, right?
>
>
> I hear this argument all the time, but why is it that the
> opinion of the supposedly brilliant programmers as to which
> language is better and why is never accepted?
It is because humans have no sense for such a thing. Our intuition often
is wrong. I am absolutely certain, from all what I see in the world,
that if you continue to accelerate you can reach bigger and bigger
speed, while sience says it is limited to the speed of light. Science
does not do that by intuition, but by proofs.
So, how will you do a scientific proof to show that Lisp was the
important factor?
I believe Kenny and from my feeling I see how Lisp can help, but I also
know that some people invested so much time in their ideas that they
simply want them to be true.
Andr�
--
"Andr� Thieme" <······························@justmail.de> wrote in message
·················@ulric.tng.de...
>
> is wrong. I am absolutely certain, from all what I see in the world, that
> if you continue to accelerate you can reach bigger and bigger speed, while
> sience says it is limited to the speed of light. Science
BTW, these two statements are not at odds.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
·····@lycos.com" <····@lycos.com> writes:
> That's not what he said :
> He said:I do not use macros.
More precisely, he said something to the effect:
(with-kenny "I do not use macros")
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> ·····@lycos.com" <····@lycos.com> writes:
>
>
>>That's not what he said :
>>He said:I do not use macros.
>
>
> More precisely, he said something to the effect:
>
> (with-kenny "I do not use macros")
In English we use the Latin (?) "per se" as a useful qualifier in cases
like this. I might have written (somewhat ungrammatically) "I do not use
macros /per se/, what I /do/ is try to code efficiently, and that
happens to include using macros."
Actually, I did confess to using macros in the OP, as well as supply a
rough count: 650. Some folks were just reading too fast. It happens.
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> ····@lycos.com wrote:
>
>>Andr� Thieme wrote:
>>
>>>Kenny Tilton schrieb:
>>>
>>>>>2. Did you use lots of macros? ;-)
>>>>
>>>>(a) I do not use macros. I program efficiently and at as
>>>>high a level of abstraction as possible. Sometimes macros
>>>>help at that.
>>>
>>>No?
>>>No defun, defclass, when, etc.?
>>>I am using macros all the time...
>>
>>No defmacro i assume .
>>What do you have against macros ?
>>It's one of my favourite Lisp features
>
>
> Presumably he means he tries to code well, not with the biased
> intention to "use macros", but willing to use macros when appropriate.
yes. I was being clever. Sorry for the confusion.
kenny
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Matthias Buelow wrote:
>> doug wrote:
>>
>>> Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
>> The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
>> presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or
>> as a substantial outfit in a company or in academics, and in the
>> latter I see none of it in the last couple years (the almighty Java
>> seemingly smothering all and everything). Any recent success
>> stories (i.e. new or significantly increased use of Lisp) here from
>> non-hobbyist camps that someone is willing to share?
>>
>
> Sure, CliniSys. Clinical drug trial management. Don't ask. It is a big
> problem. Sites by FDA requirement must operate independently of the
> drug sponsor in conducting trials, which the FDA further want
> conducted in precise fashion and with elaborate
> documentation. Investigators are busy people and often screw
> up. Monitors from the sponsor visit every six weeks to corral things
> temporarily.
You should forward this story to Franz.com, they don't have it in
their success page.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
You never feed me.
Perhaps I'll sleep on your face.
That will sure show you.
On 2005-05-26 06:23:36, Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> You should forward this story to Franz.com, they don't have it in
> their success page.
MORE SUCCESS STORIES
Stefan Scholl wrote:
> On 2005-05-26 06:23:36, Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>
>> You should forward this story to Franz.com, they don't have it in
>> their success page.
>
> MORE SUCCESS STORIES
According to the author of the Mythical Man-Month, optimism is the
programmers' professional disease. Do you want to make it even worse for
yourself?
alex goldman wrote:
> Stefan Scholl wrote:
>
>
>>On 2005-05-26 06:23:36, Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You should forward this story to Franz.com, they don't have it in
>>>their success page.
>>
>>MORE SUCCESS STORIES
>
>
> According to the author of the Mythical Man-Month, optimism is the
> programmers' professional disease. Do you want to make it even worse for
> yourself?
The disease is safe: I thought it would take 4 months, not 2.5 years.
:)
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>Matthias Buelow wrote:
>>
>>>doug wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lisp is steadily gaining ground, friend of mine started to teach a Lisp
>>>
>>>The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
>>>presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or
>>>as a substantial outfit in a company or in academics, and in the
>>>latter I see none of it in the last couple years (the almighty Java
>>>seemingly smothering all and everything). Any recent success
>>>stories (i.e. new or significantly increased use of Lisp) here from
>>>non-hobbyist camps that someone is willing to share?
>>>
>>
>>Sure, CliniSys. Clinical drug trial management. Don't ask. It is a big
>>problem. Sites by FDA requirement must operate independently of the
>>drug sponsor in conducting trials, which the FDA further want
>>conducted in precise fashion and with elaborate
>>documentation. Investigators are busy people and often screw
>>up. Monitors from the sponsor visit every six weeks to corral things
>>temporarily.
>
>
> You should forward this story to Franz.com, they don't have it in
> their success page.
>
Well, let's make a sale first. :) [btw, something I wrote sounded like
we had a customer, in case that caused some confusion.]
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton wrote:
<snipped>
> I brought on one other
> person and in four man years we produced a system that was vastly
> superior to systems built with tens of millions of dollars. 80kloc Lisp.
Does that LOC include only the code written by the two developers or
does it include generated code also?
Michael D. Kersey wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
> <snipped>
>
>> I brought on one other person and in four man years we produced a
>> system that was vastly
>> superior to systems built with tens of millions of dollars. 80kloc Lisp.
>
> Does that LOC include only the code written by the two developers or
> does it include generated code also?
Generated code? Whassat? Anyway, that is actual lines of source. BTW,
the man years might be low, and it has been a while since I counted,
might be 85kloc. Might be five man years, and when you factor in OT,
could be six or even seven. Ah, but one guy took a sabbatical to finish
his thesis... you get the idea. Two-three developers, two-three years.
No spec, btw, perfect for Lisp.
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Michael D. Kersey wrote:
>> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>> <snipped>
>>> I brought on one other person and in four man years we produced a
>>> system that was vastly
>>> superior to systems built with tens of millions of dollars. 80kloc Lisp.
>>
>> Does that LOC include only the code written by the two developers or
>> does it include generated code also?
>
> Generated code? Whassat? Anyway, that is actual lines of source. BTW,
> the man years might be low, and it has been a while since I counted,
> might be 85kloc. Might be five man years, and when you factor in OT,
> could be six or even seven. Ah, but one guy took a sabbatical to finish
> his thesis... you get the idea. Two-three developers, two-three years.
> No spec, btw, perfect for Lisp.
>
> kt
Interesting about the absent spec - is there one now?
So we're talking 12K-17K _debugged_ LOC per man-year, which IMO is
extremely high output over a long period. An old rule of thumb was that
the _average_ programmer could generate ~10 LOC per day debugged and
documented, regardless of language.
BTW you _did_ document that code, didn't you?-))
From: alex goldman
Subject: Re: CliniSys [was Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing]
Date:
Message-ID: <7478322.8knbtUXKPJ@yahoo.com>
Michael D. Kersey wrote:
>
> So we're talking 12K-17K debugged LOC per man-year, which IMO is
> extremely high output over a long period. An old rule of thumb was that
> the average programmer could generate ~10 LOC per day debugged and
> documented, regardless of language.
OO code tends to be that way. By the time you are done defining inheritance,
containment, accessors and serializers of a few classes, one of which you
might possibly need some day, it's a few hundred LOC already - time to go
home.
alex goldman wrote:
> Michael D. Kersey wrote:
>
>
>>So we're talking 12K-17K debugged LOC per man-year, which IMO is
>>extremely high output over a long period. An old rule of thumb was that
>>the average programmer could generate ~10 LOC per day debugged and
>>documented, regardless of language.
>
>
> OO code tends to be that way. By the time you are done defining inheritance,
> containment, accessors and serializers of a few classes, one of which you
> might possibly need some day, it's a few hundred LOC already - time to go
> home.
You have programmed with CLOS, haven't you?
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
"Michael D. Kersey" <········@hal-pc.org> writes:
> So we're talking 12K-17K _debugged_ LOC per man-year, which IMO is
> extremely high output over a long period. An old rule of thumb was
> that the _average_ programmer could generate ~10 LOC per day debugged
> and documented, regardless of language.
LOC per day is such a frustrating measure! Yesterday I put in
production the result of at least 20% of my work effort for the
last month or so. The new version of the critical file is 361 lines,
the old was 346...
--
(espen)
Espen Vestre wrote:
> LOC per day is such a frustrating measure! Yesterday I put in
Avoid recursion and loops then! Your programs will only appear smarter to
the end user. Try to write code like
(format t "please answer yes or no")
(setf he-answered-this (read-yes-or-no))
(unless he-answered-this
(format t "would you please enter 'yes' or 'no'")
(setf he-answered-this (read-yes-or-no))
(unless he-answered-this
(format t "Third time I'm asking this.. I'm getting tired already")
(setf he-answered-this (read-yes-or-no))
(unless he-answered-this
(format t "your last chance there, user!")
(setf he-answered-this (read-yes-or-no))
(unless he-answered-this
(error "uncooperative user"))
alex goldman <·····@spamm.er> writes:
> Avoid recursion and loops then! Your programs will only appear smarter to
> the end user. Try to write code like
:-) Sure, and I'll sure start pre-expanding all my macros before I
check in my code. Solves all those pesky macro dependency problems,
too.
--
(espen)
Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
> :-) Sure, and I'll sure start pre-expanding all my macros before I
> check in my code.
Gee, thanks, that'll be fun to debug when something breaks when you're
on vacation. ;)
I'm happy that we're not measured by LOC.
...Peder..., a collegue.
--
I wish a new life awaited _me_ in some off-world colony.
Michael D. Kersey wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>> Michael D. Kersey wrote:
>>
>>> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>>> <snipped>
>>>
>>>> I brought on one other person and in four man years we produced a
>>>> system that was vastly
>>>> superior to systems built with tens of millions of dollars. 80kloc
>>>> Lisp.
>>>
>>>
>>> Does that LOC include only the code written by the two developers or
>>> does it include generated code also?
>>
>>
>> Generated code? Whassat? Anyway, that is actual lines of source. BTW,
>> the man years might be low, and it has been a while since I counted,
>> might be 85kloc. Might be five man years, and when you factor in OT,
>> could be six or even seven. Ah, but one guy took a sabbatical to
>> finish his thesis... you get the idea. Two-three developers, two-three
>> years. No spec, btw, perfect for Lisp.
>>
>> kt
>
> Interesting about the absent spec - is there one now?
Just the implementation. :) But moving forward we will get away from
cowboy-mode and have to work like grown-ups -- the FDA is also fussy
about systems development in support of trials.
>
> So we're talking 12K-17K _debugged_ LOC per man-year, which IMO is
> extremely high output over a long period. An old rule of thumb was that
> the _average_ programmer could generate ~10 LOC per day debugged and
> documented, regardless of language.
(1) We were supposed to document it?
(2) Is the rule of thumb accurate as well as old?
(3) The rule says "average". Another rule says 20% of the developers
write 80% of the code. Therefore no one is programming at 10 LOC/day.
Two are writing 40 each, the other eight are contributing 2-3 each. I
worked 6-7 days a week for two years (the Graham theory of kill yourself
for a short time) so I am at 40-50 loc. Undocumented.
Don't forget that the Myth of the Man-Month cust both ways: two people,
no managers, no meetings, no need for documentation.
>
> BTW you _did_ document that code, didn't you?-))
You keep mentioning documentation... :)
kt
--
Cells? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Cells-Gtk? : http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells-gtk/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Michael D. Kersey wrote:
> > Kenny Tilton wrote:
> > <snipped>
> >
> >> I brought on one other person and in four man years we produced a
> >> system that was vastly
> >> superior to systems built with tens of millions of dollars. 80kloc Lisp.
> >
> > Does that LOC include only the code written by the two developers or
> > does it include generated code also?
>
> Generated code? Whassat?
I believe generated code is measured in conses, not lines.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> writes:
> The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
> presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or
> as a substantial outfit in a company or in academics, and in the
> latter I see none of it in the last couple years (the almighty Java
Here is a fresh story:
make money fast with common lisp
http://www.livejournal.com/users/xach/54795.html
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <uhdgqs5s2.fsf@agharta.de>
On Thu, 26 May 2005 03:19:59 +0200, Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> wrote:
> The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
> presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or
> as a substantial outfit in a company or in academics
There's not only big companies and academics, there are also
free-lance hackers. All the Lispers I know personally that earn their
money with Lisp are self-employed, most of them use Lisp 100% of their
time. (I myself managed to increase the Lisp share from 0% in 2001 to
about 75% this year. I'm pretty sure I'll be at 100% next year.)
Cheers,
Edi.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 03:19:59 +0200, Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> wrote:
>
> > The question is _where_ is it gaining ground... as a hobby (which I
> > presume is what most c.l.l readers, myself included, use it for), or
> > as a substantial outfit in a company or in academics
>
> There's not only big companies and academics, there are also
> free-lance hackers. All the Lispers I know personally that earn their
> money with Lisp are self-employed, most of them use Lisp 100% of their
> time. (I myself managed to increase the Lisp share from 0% in 2001 to
> about 75% this year. I'm pretty sure I'll be at 100% next year.)
>
> Cheers,
> Edi.
>
When my previous employer turned down few companies, because they were
too small ,unable to pay lot of money and their needs were too specific
,
i sow my chance, grab the conracts and developed their apps all by
myself.
Now i have a steady cash stream maintaining my code and adding new
features.
I don't earn much to call myself successfull story , but i'm happy.
I would rather be Lisping for 60k, than sit in a cubicle melting my
brain with Visual Basic for a 85k.
Being selfemployed has it's own virtoues, you could choose to work 20h
a day
or 2h a day or maybe grab a day off in the middle of the week and go
camping in the wilderness.
Sometimes my clients call me in the middle of night to fix something
but
with the great power comes great responsibility.
Edi Weitz wrote:
> There's not only big companies and academics, there are also
> free-lance hackers. All the Lispers I know personally that earn their
> money with Lisp are self-employed, most of them use Lisp 100% of their
> time. (I myself managed to increase the Lisp share from 0% in 2001 to
> about 75% this year. I'm pretty sure I'll be at 100% next year.)
My experience was quite similar. 2003 was 0% Lisp (mostly
php/perl/python and a little C), 2004 was 60%, 2005, so far, has been
near 100% Common Lisp.
While i'm technically self-employed, i do most of my work through the
tech coop.. and since i manage the development side of things, all our
new work is done in common lisp, and i've even hired some lisp
programmers for short-term contracts to help me out when i get busy.
The astute reader will note that my lisp timeline coincides with the
availability of PCL, and draw the logical conclusion :)
--
Drew Crampsie
drewc at tech dot coop
"Never mind the bollocks -- here's the sexp's tools."
-- Karl A. Krueger on comp.lang.lisp
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <m3k6llsma3.fsf@gigamonkeys.com>
drewc <·····@rift.com> writes:
> i've even hired some lisp programmers for short-term contracts to
> help me out when i get busy.
>
> The astute reader will note that my lisp timeline coincides with the
> availability of PCL, and draw the logical conclusion :)
Ah, in that case, next time you (or any other c.l.l. readers) have
need of a contract Lisp programmer, you should think of your friendly
neighborhood Lisp book author--I'm now into my post-book life and am
doing consulting, including, of course, Lisp hacking.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
From: Karl A. Krueger
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <d765k9$2b4$2@baldur.whoi.edu>
drewc <·····@rift.com> wrote:
> "Never mind the bollocks -- here's the sexp's tools."
> -- Karl A. Krueger on comp.lang.lisp
Aack! I've been sigged! :)
--
Karl A. Krueger <········@example.edu> { s/example/whoi/ }
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> The tsunami is on the way and on schedule. The Cells and Cello
> projects report increased wind velocity. Plywood those windows while
> you can.
While windows might get crushed, pinguins float ;-)
--
(espen)
When the last summer i said that i gonna learn Lisp there was two
reactions:
1 The slow AI language , with too many parenthesis (Usually older
coders)
2 What's lisp ? (usually younger coders)
Don't waste your time it , better learn Python , perl.. YNI
Nowadays allmost everybody heard about it, and some of them even learn
it.
I now this isn't greta measure but sticking mainstream has it virtous.
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tekst.htm
Espen Vestre wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> > The tsunami is on the way and on schedule. The Cells and Cello
> > projects report increased wind velocity. Plywood those windows while
> > you can.
>
> While windows might get crushed, pinguins float ;-)
As do apples. :-)
And dragonflies have no problem at all.
http://www.dragonflybsd.org
After a long battle with technology, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net>, an earthling, wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>> The tsunami is on the way and on schedule. The Cells and Cello
>> projects report increased wind velocity. Plywood those windows while
>> you can.
>
> While windows might get crushed, pinguins float ;-)
Penguins _swim_...
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="gmail.com" in name ^ ·@" ^ tld;;
http://linuxfinances.info/info/slony.html
"I've seen estimates that 10% of all IDs in the US are phony. At least
one-fourth of the president's own family has been known to use phony
IDs." -- Bruce Schneier CRYPTO-GRAM, December 15, 2001
From: Karl A. Krueger
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <d764tc$2b4$1@baldur.whoi.edu>
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> wrote:
> After a long battle with technology, Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net>, an earthling, wrote:
>> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>>> The tsunami is on the way and on schedule. The Cells and Cello
>>> projects report increased wind velocity. Plywood those windows while
>>> you can.
>>
>> While windows might get crushed, pinguins float ;-)
>
> Penguins _swim_...
These days, Windows swims in malware, and the Internet is awash with
junk traffic spewed out as a byproduct.
--
Karl A. Krueger <········@example.edu> { s/example/whoi/ }
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp going into 2nd printing
Date:
Message-ID: <3fpg58F93m5pU1@news.dfncis.de>
Karl A. Krueger wrote:
> These days, Windows swims in malware, and the Internet is awash with
> junk traffic spewed out as a byproduct.
I think that's rather a social than a technical problem.
mkb.
Peter Seibel wrote:
> So I received word yesterday that _Practical Common Lisp_ is going to
> have a second printing. Besides the good implications this has for how
> sales have been going, it also means that I have a chance to correct
> small errors that appear in the 1st printing. I have to give my fixes
> to Apress by the end of the week so if you have been meaning to write
> to me about any errata, now'd be a good time to do it. I just put up a
> first cut errata list at:
Just in case the book will see light in a third edition. I think it
would be a good idea to have at least one big chapter for the
scientist.
When I start out from a new language the first what I am watching out
are matrix calculations techniques and how people write things from and
to files. Surely, such techniques are described in your book - I guess
from your table of contents - but you may not forget that a typical
scientist is after a quick solution for his numerical calculations.
Or lets put it this way: if there were a dedicated chapter for the
scientist that would be an incentive for me to buy the book. Okay, the
latter would be applicable if I were interested in Lisp; but that is
not necessarily the case. But you may not forget there are still
scientists who are interested in Lisp.
That said: hats off to everyone who writes a book about programming.
Such an undertaking sounds simpler than it might turn out in reality.
Good luck with your book.
Zuckerfreies-Cola-Light
On 26 May 2005 04:21:28 -0700, <·············@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> When I start out from a new language the first what I am watching out
> are matrix calculations techniques and how people write things from and
> to files. Surely, such techniques are described in your book - I guess
> from your table of contents - but you may not forget that a typical
> scientist is after a quick solution for his numerical calculations.
>
> Or lets put it this way: if there were a dedicated chapter for the
> scientist that would be an incentive for me to buy the book. Okay, the
> latter would be applicable if I were interested in Lisp; but that is
> not necessarily the case. But you may not forget there are still
> scientists who are interested in Lisp.
What about an entire book? ISBN 0-471-50916-7
PCL would be a suppliment to Lisp-Stat.
--
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly fine.