From: Takuon Soho
Subject: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <ck8de.2366$BE3.1263@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Having discovered the remarkable "Lisp"
language and with the realization that
it does indeed possess the necessary
power to be language of the future,
the question arises if it might provide
the means of restoring individual developer
creativity and productivity and, if so,
would it help provide an alternative dominant
operating system, open sourced and with
all the consequent liberating effects that
this would entail.

The key thing to consider in contemplating
a perhaps useful alternative to Microsoft
operating system's Soviet like hegemony
over the realm of personal computers
is that Windows was designed to capture
maximum market share and to destroy
potential competitors from the outset
along with preserving backward computability
which was/is extraordinary
and for which they should
be given due credit.

But these design criteria naturally result in
an operating system full of security holes,
having frequent crashes or unstable states
and being difficult to program or interface.

As a "convenience" to its developers
Microsoft has attempted to "provide" various "visual"
development environments complete with "help" systems
which manage to waltz the user past every possible Microsoft
proprietary technology that he/or she may "need" whilst trying
to get help on some specific target.  Often an exercise in futility.

The answer to all this is NOT Linux thought that may
be part of the solution.   The Linuxers
have made great contributions.  But in my humble
opinion, the answer has been in front of us for over 20 years
and it involves LISP.

The Lisp machines of years ago provided an integrated operating 
system/development
environment and the kind of user interface many of whose features are
still only a dream today for all but the few who still have such machines.
Yes, the microcoded architectures of those machines were difficult
to design and maintain - but we are now 20 years in the future.

So any attitudes which abjures the importance of these Lisp machines,
especially after the AI winter of the early 90's, must be reconsidered.
Astoundingly, such attitudes are common and, up until a few years
ago, information about such machines was scant for all but the
few who had used them.   The information "black out"
appears to extend even to FAQ's about Emacs implementations
where every distant relative of Emacs is mentioned with the
exception of Zmacs.

THIS is the key to the question of the overthrow of Microsoft hegemony
and its consequent current stagnation of software development.
Lisp can bypass the dead end paths of C++, C# and Java, but only
by reuniting the language with a suitable development environment
and operating system, something similar to what Lisp machines
had years ago.

Is ANYONE working on this approach at all??   There is the
experimental "Croquet" operating system which runs on
Squeak Smalltalk and that is the only
one I know of but there must be others.   For that matter,
one would expect  numerous contributions of
common Lisp implementations that run under Squeak's excellent
(and genuine) visual development environment but I see only one.

Bottom line - I will no longer accept yesterday's software development
conceptions, even with Lisp with the "pretend" development
environments that offer this or that similarity with what the older machines 
did.

The world that we dreamed of, a world of intelligent computers,
geometric algorithm design and helpful robots and
all the rest of it, can occur - but will
never happen in the constricted domains that Microsoft provides.

It can and will happen in far less than another 20 years, but only
when we begin to question fundamental attitudes of design
and environments.

As always,  agreements,  objections and refutations welcome.

J. Pannozzi

From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <3dkk8dF6r916oU1@individual.net>
Takuon Soho wrote:
> Having discovered the remarkable "Lisp"
> language and with the realization that
> it does indeed possess the necessary
> power to be language of the future,

Maybe.  It's got the power and the extensibility.

> the question arises if it might provide
> the means of restoring individual developer
> creativity and productivity and, if so,

Restore from what?  Some people use it, some don't.  It's their 
choice.

> would it help provide an alternative dominant
> operating system, open sourced and with
> all the consequent liberating effects that
> this would entail.

What are those effects?

> The key thing to consider in contemplating
> a perhaps useful alternative to Microsoft
> operating system's Soviet like hegemony

??  If you like MS products, you buy them.  If you don't, you 
don't have to buy them.  No threats, no monopolies, no hegemony.

> over the realm of personal computers
> is that Windows was designed to capture
> maximum market share and to destroy

Every company designs stuff to gain market share.  The goal, 
however, is not maximum market share, but maximum profit.

The goal of Linux, btw (according to Mr Torvalds), is world 
domination, so that's just as good or bad as MS.

> potential competitors from the outset

No, the product is just a product.  MS did some illegal practices 
in the past, however, to hurt competitors.

> along with preserving backward computability
> which was/is extraordinary
> and for which they should
> be given due credit.
> 
> But these design criteria naturally result in
> an operating system full of security holes,
> having frequent crashes or unstable states
> and being difficult to program or interface.

What does that have to do with the design criteria.  ESR's book 
"The Art of Unix programming" (it's online, too) has a short 
description of system architecture and how that makes Win NT less 
secure, but that has nothing to do with the goals you stated above.

 > But in my humble
> opinion, the answer has been in front of us for over 20 years
> and it involves LISP.

Lisp is no panacea, to whatever problem you try to suggest here. 
It's just a good language.

> The Lisp machines of years ago provided an integrated operating 
> system/development
> environment and the kind of user interface many of whose features are
> still only a dream today for all but the few who still have such machines.
> Yes, the microcoded architectures of those machines were difficult
> to design and maintain - but we are now 20 years in the future.

Lisp machines were only usable by Lisp hackers, I suppose, not end 
users.

> THIS is the key to the question of the overthrow of Microsoft hegemony
> and its consequent current stagnation of software development.

(1) Why overthrow MS?  What hegemony?
(2) What does that have to do with worldwide stagnation of 
software development?  Feel free to develop without MS's support, 
for other systems.  Just pretend MS doesn't exist.

> Lisp can bypass the dead end paths of C++, C# and Java, but only
> by reuniting the language with a suitable development environment
> and operating system, something similar to what Lisp machines
> had years ago.

What do you need the OS for?  Why not use Lisp on Windows, the 
Mac, or Unix?

> Bottom line - I will no longer accept yesterday's software development
> conceptions, even with Lisp with the "pretend" development
> environments that offer this or that similarity with what the older machines 
> did.
> 
> The world that we dreamed of, a world of intelligent computers,
> geometric algorithm design and helpful robots and
> all the rest of it, can occur - but will
> never happen in the constricted domains that Microsoft provides.

Dream on ;)

> J. Pannozzi

Are you J. Pannozzi or Takuon Soho?

-- 
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's 
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
From: Takuon Soho
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <fK9de.2387$BE3.17@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
"Ulrich Hobelmann" <···········@web.de> wrote in message 
····················@individual.net...
> >Takuon Soho wrote:
>> Having discovered the remarkable "Lisp"
>> language and with the realization that
>> it does indeed possess the necessary
>> power to be language of the future,


> Maybe.  It's got the power and the extensibility.
>

>> the question arises if it might provide
>> the means of restoring individual developer
>> creativity and productivity and, if so,
>

> Restore from what?  Some people use it, some don't.  It's their choice.

No, restore TO what, that is the question!
Is there not better than what is available today -
2D windows being moved around on top of one another
and so-called "visual development" environments??
A good Perl programmer with pure text could
probably do better.



>> would it help provide an alternative dominant
>> operating system, open sourced and with
>> all the consequent liberating effects that
>> this would entail.

> What are those effects?
Search for people describing what it was like
to program on Lisp machines...

Those effects.

>> The key thing to consider in contemplating
>> a perhaps useful alternative to Microsoft
>> operating system's Soviet like hegemony

> ??  If you like MS products, you buy them.  If you don't, you don't have 
> to buy them.  No threats, no monopolies, no hegemony.

I wish this were true.  With the onset of Linux and Star Office
and the like it is slowly happening.

>> over the realm of personal computers
>> is that Windows was designed to capture
>> maximum market share and to destroy
>
> Every company designs stuff to gain market share.  The goal, however, is 
> not maximum market share, but maximum profit.

Maximum profit? Not for Microsoft.   They gave away their browser and,
early versions of Microsoft Word and Excel were included with many systems.
They therfore gave away their product to gain market share
and eliminate competition.  An OK strategy except that
Microsoft also wrote the operating systems upon which
resided the apps they were giving away.  THIS little procedure
enters the realm of anti-competitive and monopolistic practices,
at least some would, I believe, think so.

 > The goal of Linux, btw (according to Mr Torvalds), is world
> domination, so that's just as good or bad as MS.

-Agreed.

>> potential competitors from the outset

> No, the product is just a product.  MS did some illegal practices in the 
> past, however, to hurt competitors.


>> along with preserving backward computability
>> which was/is extraordinary
>> and for which they should
>> be given due credit.
>>
>> But these design criteria naturally result in
>> an operating system full of security holes,
>> having frequent crashes or unstable states
>> and being difficult to program or interface.

> What does that have to do with the design criteria.  ESR's book "The Art 
> of Unix programming" (it's online, too) has a short description of system 
> architecture and how that makes Win NT less secure, but that has nothing 
> to do with the goals you stated above.
>

> > But in my humble
>> opinion, the answer has been in front of us for over 20 years
>> and it involves LISP.
>>

> Lisp is no panacea, to whatever problem you try to suggest here. It's just 
> a good language.

Apparently, and somewhat crucially, something more than a good language.
A good metalanguage.

>> The Lisp machines of years ago provided an integrated operating 
>> system/development
>> environment and the kind of user interface many of whose features are
>> still only a dream today for all but the few who still have such 
>> machines.
>> Yes, the microcoded architectures of those machines were difficult
>> to design and maintain - but we are now 20 years in the future.

> Lisp machines were only usable by Lisp hackers, I suppose, not end users.

>> THIS is the key to the question of the overthrow of Microsoft hegemony
>> and its consequent current stagnation of software development.

> (1) Why overthrow MS?  What hegemony?
> (2) What does that have to do with worldwide stagnation of software 
> development?  Feel free to develop without MS's support, for other 
> systems.  Just pretend MS doesn't exist.

Good idea.  OK, fine, MS don't exist.
But, then, let's forget about Unix and Linux and Mac, for now too.

>> Lisp can bypass the dead end paths of C++, C# and Java, but only
>> by reuniting the language with a suitable development environment
>> and operating system, something similar to what Lisp machines
>> had years ago.
>
> What do you need the OS for?  Why not use Lisp on Windows, the Mac, or 
> Unix?

No can do - we just decided that they don't exist.

We need an OS that is self referential and that is the same
language or metalanguage as its supported development programs.
Lisp fills the bill.

Can Lisp on Windows the Mac or Unix do even a tenth of what
it could do on the old Lisp machines?

Is there a even working OpenGL implemenation for CLisp on XP that works?
Do you think that iLisp or SLIME is the final evolution in powerful
development environments?  If so then no problem.

But what I suspect is that many programmers, not having any knowledge of 
what
the Lisp machines could do or knowledge of what their development 
environments
were like, will find the modern Lisp implementation quite powerful and 
sufficent.

THIS is the problem.  I believe that there is much much more that is 
possible
and I want to find out what it is.  I will not accept the current 
implemenations as
adequate.  I am no longer impressed with a few clever pull downs, a 
hyperspec help system
and some 2D windows.

>> Bottom line - I will no longer accept yesterday's software development
>> conceptions, even with Lisp with the "pretend" development
>> environments that offer this or that similarity with what the older 
>> machines did.
>>
>> The world that we dreamed of, a world of intelligent computers,
>> geometric algorithm design and helpful robots and
>> all the rest of it, can occur - but will
>> never happen in the constricted domains that Microsoft provides.
>

> Dream on ;)

Oh, I plan to do more than dream about it.
Stay tuned.

And thanks.
J

>
>> J. Pannozzi
>
> Are you J. Pannozzi or Takuon Soho?
Jimserac, Takuon Soho and J. Pannozzi, one and the same dude!
For Soho, see "Musashi", a novel of the famous historical swordsman, by 
Yoshikawa.

> -- 
> No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's 
> consent. -- Abraham Lincoln

Good quote! 
From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Andr=E9_Thieme?=
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <d56gps$n8q$1@ulric.tng.de>
Takuon Soho schrieb:

> No, restore TO what, that is the question!
> Is there not better than what is available today -
> 2D windows being moved around on top of one another
> and so-called "visual development" environments??

There will be a better solution - becoming the computer itself. Read 
Kurzweil:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html


Andr�
--
From: Christopher Koppler
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <pan.2005.05.01.18.47.36.133465@chello.at>
On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:27:36 +0000, Takuon Soho wrote:

> Is ANYONE working on this approach at all?? 

http://tunes.org/Tunes-FAQ.html

-- 
Christopher
From: Takuon Soho
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <HR9de.2400$BE3.2383@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow!!

Many thanks for this link.

Jim


"Christopher Koppler" <········@chello.at> wrote in message 
···································@chello.at...
> On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:27:36 +0000, Takuon Soho wrote:
>
>> Is ANYONE working on this approach at all??
>
> http://tunes.org/Tunes-FAQ.html
>
> -- 
> Christopher
> 
From: Zakath
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <4275b732$0$18815$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Takuon Soho wrote:
> Yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Wow!!
> 
> Many thanks for this link.
> 
> Jim


Same thing here :)

Zakath
From: Lars Rune Nøstdal
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <pan.2005.05.01.19.36.45.895837@gmail.com>
On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:27:36 +0000, Takuon Soho wrote:

> 
> Having discovered the remarkable "Lisp"
> language and with the realization that
> it does indeed possess the necessary
> power to be language of the future,
> the question arises if it might provide
> the means of restoring individual developer
> creativity and productivity and, if so,
> would it help provide an alternative dominant
> operating system, open sourced and with
> all the consequent liberating effects that
> this would entail.
> 
> The key thing to consider in contemplating
> a perhaps useful alternative to Microsoft
> operating system's Soviet like hegemony
> over the realm of personal computers
> is that Windows was designed to capture
> maximum market share and to destroy
> potential competitors from the outset
> along with preserving backward computability
> which was/is extraordinary
> and for which they should
> be given due credit.
> 
> But these design criteria naturally result in
> an operating system full of security holes,
> having frequent crashes or unstable states
> and being difficult to program or interface.
> 
> As a "convenience" to its developers
> Microsoft has attempted to "provide" various "visual"
> development environments complete with "help" systems
> which manage to waltz the user past every possible Microsoft
> proprietary technology that he/or she may "need" whilst trying
> to get help on some specific target.  Often an exercise in futility.
> 
> The answer to all this is NOT Linux thought that may
> be part of the solution.   The Linuxers
> have made great contributions.  But in my humble
> opinion, the answer has been in front of us for over 20 years
> and it involves LISP.
> 
> The Lisp machines of years ago provided an integrated operating 
> system/development
> environment and the kind of user interface many of whose features are
> still only a dream today for all but the few who still have such machines.
> Yes, the microcoded architectures of those machines were difficult
> to design and maintain - but we are now 20 years in the future.
> 
> So any attitudes which abjures the importance of these Lisp machines,
> especially after the AI winter of the early 90's, must be reconsidered.
> Astoundingly, such attitudes are common and, up until a few years
> ago, information about such machines was scant for all but the
> few who had used them.   The information "black out"
> appears to extend even to FAQ's about Emacs implementations
> where every distant relative of Emacs is mentioned with the
> exception of Zmacs.
> 
> THIS is the key to the question of the overthrow of Microsoft hegemony
> and its consequent current stagnation of software development.
> Lisp can bypass the dead end paths of C++, C# and Java, but only
> by reuniting the language with a suitable development environment
> and operating system, something similar to what Lisp machines
> had years ago.
> 
> Is ANYONE working on this approach at all??   There is the
> experimental "Croquet" operating system which runs on
> Squeak Smalltalk and that is the only
> one I know of but there must be others.   For that matter,
> one would expect  numerous contributions of
> common Lisp implementations that run under Squeak's excellent
> (and genuine) visual development environment but I see only one.
> 
> Bottom line - I will no longer accept yesterday's software development
> conceptions, even with Lisp with the "pretend" development
> environments that offer this or that similarity with what the older machines 
> did.
> 
> The world that we dreamed of, a world of intelligent computers,
> geometric algorithm design and helpful robots and
> all the rest of it, can occur - but will
> never happen in the constricted domains that Microsoft provides.
> 
> It can and will happen in far less than another 20 years, but only
> when we begin to question fundamental attitudes of design
> and environments.
> 
> As always,  agreements,  objections and refutations welcome.
> 
> J. Pannozzi

maybe this: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/

(it runs on cheap hardware - maybe a "win-win")

-- 
mvh,
Lars Rune Nøstdal
http://lars.nostdal.org/
From: Takuon Soho
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <zg9de.3608$GQ5.3061@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
"Lars Rune N�stdal" <···········@gmail.com> wrote in message 
···································@gmail.com...

> maybe this: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/
>
> (it runs on cheap hardware - maybe a "win-win")
>
> -- 
> mvh,
> Lars Rune N�stdal
> http://lars.nostdal.org/
>

Thanks, this does look interesting!

Tak.


> On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:27:36 +0000, Takuon Soho wrote:
>
>>
>> Having discovered the remarkable "Lisp"
>> language and with the realization that
>> it does indeed possess the necessary
>> power to be language of the future,
>> the question arises if it might provide
>> the means of restoring individual developer
>> creativity and productivity and, if so,
>> would it help provide an alternative dominant
>> operating system, open sourced and with
>> all the consequent liberating effects that
>> this would entail.
>>
>> The key thing to consider in contemplating
>> a perhaps useful alternative to Microsoft
>> operating system's Soviet like hegemony
>> over the realm of personal computers
>> is that Windows was designed to capture
>> maximum market share and to destroy
>> potential competitors from the outset
>> along with preserving backward computability
>> which was/is extraordinary
>> and for which they should
>> be given due credit.
>>
>> But these design criteria naturally result in
>> an operating system full of security holes,
>> having frequent crashes or unstable states
>> and being difficult to program or interface.
>>
>> As a "convenience" to its developers
>> Microsoft has attempted to "provide" various "visual"
>> development environments complete with "help" systems
>> which manage to waltz the user past every possible Microsoft
>> proprietary technology that he/or she may "need" whilst trying
>> to get help on some specific target.  Often an exercise in futility.
>>
>> The answer to all this is NOT Linux thought that may
>> be part of the solution.   The Linuxers
>> have made great contributions.  But in my humble
>> opinion, the answer has been in front of us for over 20 years
>> and it involves LISP.
>>
>> The Lisp machines of years ago provided an integrated operating
>> system/development
>> environment and the kind of user interface many of whose features are
>> still only a dream today for all but the few who still have such 
>> machines.
>> Yes, the microcoded architectures of those machines were difficult
>> to design and maintain - but we are now 20 years in the future.
>>
>> So any attitudes which abjures the importance of these Lisp machines,
>> especially after the AI winter of the early 90's, must be reconsidered.
>> Astoundingly, such attitudes are common and, up until a few years
>> ago, information about such machines was scant for all but the
>> few who had used them.   The information "black out"
>> appears to extend even to FAQ's about Emacs implementations
>> where every distant relative of Emacs is mentioned with the
>> exception of Zmacs.
>>
>> THIS is the key to the question of the overthrow of Microsoft hegemony
>> and its consequent current stagnation of software development.
>> Lisp can bypass the dead end paths of C++, C# and Java, but only
>> by reuniting the language with a suitable development environment
>> and operating system, something similar to what Lisp machines
>> had years ago.
>>
>> Is ANYONE working on this approach at all??   There is the
>> experimental "Croquet" operating system which runs on
>> Squeak Smalltalk and that is the only
>> one I know of but there must be others.   For that matter,
>> one would expect  numerous contributions of
>> common Lisp implementations that run under Squeak's excellent
>> (and genuine) visual development environment but I see only one.
>>
>> Bottom line - I will no longer accept yesterday's software development
>> conceptions, even with Lisp with the "pretend" development
>> environments that offer this or that similarity with what the older 
>> machines
>> did.
>>
>> The world that we dreamed of, a world of intelligent computers,
>> geometric algorithm design and helpful robots and
>> all the rest of it, can occur - but will
>> never happen in the constricted domains that Microsoft provides.
>>
>> It can and will happen in far less than another 20 years, but only
>> when we begin to question fundamental attitudes of design
>> and environments.
>>
>> As always,  agreements,  objections and refutations welcome.
>>
>> J. Pannozzi
>
> maybe this: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/
>
> (it runs on cheap hardware - maybe a "win-win")
>
> -- 
> mvh,
> Lars Rune N�stdal
> http://lars.nostdal.org/
> 
From: Matthias Buelow
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <86acneh79t.fsf@drjekyll.mkbuelow.net>
"Takuon Soho" <···@somwhere.net> writes:

>The world that we dreamed of, a world of intelligent computers,
>geometric algorithm design and helpful robots and
>all the rest of it, can occur - but will
>never happen in the constricted domains that Microsoft provides.

Of course.  We just need to ditch our current operating systems and
the boob fairy will beam down from heaven and hex all the problems
away that very clever men weren't able to solve in the last 50
years...

Btw.: One humble approach to reaching that fairy land would be
learning how to quote properly (re your other fullquote-topposting
replies in this thread.)

mkb.
From: Revzala Haelmic
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <d56d38$sk7$1@domitilla.aioe.org>
Joel Spolsky, who worked at Microsoft for some time, and develops
software in BASIC, had a /chutzpah/ to write an article called
"Architecture Astronauts". Despite of that I feel a real disgust
to Microsoft company politics and don't enjoy any bit using Microsoft
products, despite of that I don't think BASIC could be powerful enough
to use for software development nowadays, I tend to agree with him and
believe that this article is very appropriate on this topic. It's main
point, if I understood it well, is not just "Don't believe a stories
about bright future". It can be expressed as "Before rushing to make
the world happy, be so kind as to feel out what the world really
needs".

Link: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html

BTW, reading words of such a profound and intense hatred to Microsoft,
I made one guess. Having looked at source of your message, I wasn't
disappointed:

X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180

There always was such a strong correlation! I made this guess hundreds
of times and never was wrong.
From: Pascal Bourguignon
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <87y8ax9oio.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Revzala Haelmic <··@fck.org> writes:
> BTW, reading words of such a profound and intense hatred to Microsoft,
> I made one guess. Having looked at source of your message, I wasn't
> disappointed:
>
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
>
> There always was such a strong correlation! I made this guess hundreds
> of times and never was wrong.

It's kind of a tautology.

People who don't (have to) use Microsoft products don't mind Microsoft,
people who have to use Microsoft products loath them and hate Microsoft.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

The world will now reboot.  don't bother saving your artefacts.
From: Hartmann Schaffer
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <iNkee.1041$pi1.6167@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> ...
> People who don't (have to) use Microsoft products don't mind Microsoft,
> people who have to use Microsoft products loath them and hate Microsoft.

or if they are exposed to other people having to use microsoft (on a 
compiler project, a customer recently sent me the source code of a 
program he had problems with.  i had to ask him to resend it from a unix 
station:  the MS mailer did something to the source code that made it 
impossible to compile)

hs
From: Takuon Soho
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <7WAee.7472$BE3.1165@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Well, I do get jobs requiring program interface to Microsoft Outlook and
other Microsoft Office products and so I try to keep abreast of the latest 
propaganda...
er, I mean features, and I do use them, but not without often wishing for
something else.

Time, that is the key.

I have quite a capable Suse 9.1 on my Sony Vaio laptop - but unlike Windows 
XP, it does'nt
grok the screen and Yast can't increase the resolution for me easily.

Now what, do I start reading pages and pages about how to input textual 
parameters
into the configuration file?

There is no time for this and so I must, for now, accept this shortcomming 
in my dream
to avoid Microsoft.

Anyway, the bottom line is that yes I do use Microsoft stuff and no I don't 
particularly like to.

By the way, just for the record, I can't figure out how to get Hemlock to 
run on XP until I know
quite a bit more Lisp.

But thanks to everyone for interesting comments.

Takuan (oder Jimserac oder Jim Pannozzi).

"Hartmann Schaffer" <··@hartmann.schaffernet> wrote in message 
························@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> ...
>> People who don't (have to) use Microsoft products don't mind Microsoft,
>> people who have to use Microsoft products loath them and hate Microsoft.
>
> or if they are exposed to other people having to use microsoft (on a 
> compiler project, a customer recently sent me the source code of a program 
> he had problems with.  i had to ask him to resend it from a unix station: 
> the MS mailer did something to the source code that made it impossible to 
> compile)
>
> hs
> 
From: Takuon Soho
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <OIBde.3524$HL2.2303@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>
"Revzala Haelmic" <··@fck.org> wrote in message 
·················@domitilla.aioe.org
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180

Any comments on a Lisp based Email  and Lisp
based newsreader(s) would be of interest to me and,
I suspect, to many others as well.

Thanks
Jim


...
> Joel Spolsky, who worked at Microsoft for some time, and develops
> software in BASIC, had a /chutzpah/ to write an article called
> "Architecture Astronauts". Despite of that I feel a real disgust
> to Microsoft company politics and don't enjoy any bit using Microsoft
> products, despite of that I don't think BASIC could be powerful enough
> to use for software development nowadays, I tend to agree with him and
> believe that this article is very appropriate on this topic. It's main
> point, if I understood it well, is not just "Don't believe a stories
> about bright future". It can be expressed as "Before rushing to make
> the world happy, be so kind as to feel out what the world really
> needs".
>
> Link: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html
>
> BTW, reading words of such a profound and intense hatred to Microsoft,
> I made one guess. Having looked at source of your message, I wasn't
> disappointed:
>
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
>
> There always was such a strong correlation! I made this guess hundreds
> of times and never was wrong. 
From: Pascal Bourguignon
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <87hdhkair1.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
"Takuon Soho" <···@somwhere.net> writes:

> "Revzala Haelmic" <··@fck.org> wrote in message 
> ·················@domitilla.aioe.org
>>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
>
> Any comments on a Lisp based Email  and Lisp
> based newsreader(s) would be of interest to me and,
> I suspect, to many others as well.

For a start, emacs with vm or mew and/or gnus.

Then you can have a look at hemlock, IIRC it has a mail client.

And there is a mail client running on McCLIM: http://codeartist.org/mel/


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

This is a signature virus.  Add me to your signature and help me to live
From: Takuon Soho
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <baMde.5061$HL2.421@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>
"Pascal Bourguignon" <···@informatimago.com> wrote in message 
···················@thalassa.informatimago.com...
> "Takuon Soho" <···@somwhere.net> writes:
>
>> "Revzala Haelmic" <··@fck.org> wrote in message
>> ·················@domitilla.aioe.org
>>>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
>>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
>>
>> Any comments on a Lisp based Email  and Lisp
>> based newsreader(s) would be of interest to me and,
>> I suspect, to many others as well.
>

> For a start, emacs with vm or mew and/or gnus.
>
> Then you can have a look at hemlock, IIRC it has a mail client.
>
> And there is a mail client running on McCLIM: http://codeartist.org/mel/


Interesting stuff, I will check it out.

Thanks
Tak


"Pascal Bourguignon" <···@informatimago.com> wrote in message 
···················@thalassa.informatimago.com...
> "Takuon Soho" <···@somwhere.net> writes:
>
>> "Revzala Haelmic" <··@fck.org> wrote in message
>> ·················@domitilla.aioe.org
>>>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
>>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
>>
>> Any comments on a Lisp based Email  and Lisp
>> based newsreader(s) would be of interest to me and,
>> I suspect, to many others as well.
>
> For a start, emacs with vm or mew and/or gnus.
>
> Then you can have a look at hemlock, IIRC it has a mail client.
>
> And there is a mail client running on McCLIM: http://codeartist.org/mel/
>
>
> -- 
> __Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
>
> This is a signature virus.  Add me to your signature and help me to live 
From: lin8080
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <4277C9F7.4E5892AA@freenet.de>
Takuon Soho schrieb:
> "Ulrich Hobelmann" <···········@web.de>

> Can Lisp on Windows the Mac or Unix do even a tenth of what
> it could do on the old Lisp machines?

What if one ffi's the c-kernel of a linux and allow a running lisp to
manipulate here and there. This acts like a virus, transforming
everything to it's needs no matter where it was deployed. It runs out of
control quicker than one can understand.

(me-count 'new-version :start :end)   ; make a laughing event

> >> The world that we dreamed of, a world of intelligent computers,
> >> geometric algorithm design and helpful robots and
> >> all the rest of it, can occur -...
> > Dream on ;)
> Oh, I plan to do more than dream about it.
> Stay tuned.
Pscht. I keep on dreaming with you. There are some rumors on my 486/66
promising dos7.0 is still running but only time runs out of control. (I
called it bit-war-ior)

stefan

create a golem
From: lin8080
Subject: Re: Alternative tof Microsoft Windows vis a vis Lisp
Date: 
Message-ID: <4277CD68.6E15E8C2@freenet.de>
Revzala Haelmic schrieb:

> BTW, reading words of such a profound and intense hatred to Microsoft,
> I made one guess. Having looked at source of your message, I wasn't
> disappointed:

> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180

> There always was such a strong correlation! I made this guess hundreds
> of times and never was wrong.

Hm-hm
Do not expect programmers only have one PC. Do not.

stefan

(i have 17, one runs win out of a virtual hd and is the net-pc
-maybe i put it on a usb-stick)