From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005jul08-007@Yahoo.Com>
In recent years I've been unable to find anyone willing to pay me an
hourly rate for my fine work writing computer software. Apparently no
company is willing to hire anyone who has been out of work, for fear of
paying even minimum wage and getting somebody nobody else wanted and
now they know it's because they can't get any software working within a
reasonble time (hence for a reasonable amount of wages given hourly
pay). I have been offering to do trial work first, then get paid if
they like my work, but no company is willing to do even that because of
problems getting me covered under their liability insurance policy if
I'm not a legal employee yet I'm on their premises a lot. And of course
Stanford University (*SU*) was the only place that ever allowed me to
work remotely and keep track of my own hours worked, so working off
premises now is not an option. Telecommuting is a fantasy, an urban
legend.
*SU* (where I used to work before the Loma Prieta earthquake absorbed all
their university funding for damage repair, while their president
Donald Kennedy used governent research funds for his personal
pleasures such as yacht and summer home so we lost all our grants as
soon as the 1990-91 fiscal year grants expired, and a recession hit
about the same time so IBM and other companies which had been funding
us until then cut off their funding.)
A while back some people on the net suggested I work for a fixed-price
contract instead of an hourly wage. That way the company can tell me
what they need, and I can do all the work on my own time, and then when
I have something fully working I present it to them and they pay me
that fixed amount, and they don't have to worry I'll bill lots of hours
without getting the job done. But I never did that before, so I had no
idea how much to charge for any given program. I would like to get at
least Federal minimum wage, just as if I had an hourly job, but I have
no idea how many hours a project should cost hence no idea how much
would be a fair asking price.
During the 2005.Spring school term I took a course in distributed java.
One thing the instructor emphasized was writing up "Use Cases", and
agreeing to them with the customer, before starting any of the rest of
the design. After doing this (*UC*) for a few class homework
assignments, it occurred to me that given each Use Case specification,
I might be able to easily brainstorm with my customer (*RC*) and we
could agree to a specific list of methods needed to implement that
single Use Case in a nicely structured manner (*SP*), and I'd write up
that two-level list of use cases with methods of each. From my
experience with the homework assignments, I had an idea how long each
method took to write and unit-test (about one hour), so if I charge a
flat rate of ten dollars per method that would be fair. So putting this
all togethe, as soon as I write up the methods for each Use Case, I
could then immediately state my fixed price for each Use Case, and
hopefully the customer would be pleased at my resonable prices and
agree to the contract.
*UC* (just on my own, the instructor playing the role of "customer"
never had time to really look at my Use Case document much less
discuss it with me)
*RC* (a *real* customer, who actually *wanted* my software, and would
be paying money for it, so he/she would be willing to spend the
time necessary to make sure we were in agreement about what I'd
be implementing)
*SP* (no method that does more than one primary task, rather a bunch of
single-task methods and a bunch of task-controller methods that
merely call the various single-task methods without doing any
significant algorithm themselves)
I have found anyone anywhere around here who wants any software work
done, and all the job ads have required skills or experience I don't
have, making it a shot in the dark to send a resume to any of them, and
precluding getting any fixed-price contracts or even interviews about
such possibilities so-far.
Recently I've been working on a software project that is so large that
I couldn't keep track of it all without breaking it into modules in a
nice organized way. Each module implements all the software for
handling one kind of data, and typically provides what I call a "weak
enumeration" (*WE*), and related software (such as getting a whole list
of elements per some range specification i.e. sub-sequence, or doing
the whole process of constructing a new enumerator and getting one
element if any and discarding the enumeration within a single call,
etc.).
*WE* (instead of one method to say whether there is another element of
the collection available later, which requires look-ahead to make
that determination, the lookahead needing to actually calculate
the new element in a way that changes the state of an inner
enumeration, so the element must be cached or lost forever, and a
second method to actually retrieve the next element of the
collection, which was already cached during the lookahead,
there's just a single method which returns either the next
element if it finds any or an EOF value if it ran off the end
before finding any new element. By the way, what I'm doing in
many cases is having the outer enumeration be a "filter wrapper"
or just a reference wrapper (*RW*) around the inner enumeration,
and in some cases there are several levels of one enumeration
acting as a filter for the next lower enumeration, and shortly
when I'm nearly finished I'll have recursive loops in these
enumeration wrappers)
*RW* (Whereas a "filter enumeration" simply returns the same elements
that the inner enumeration returns, but filtering, i.e. passing
some but nullfiling others, a reference wrapper builds a whole
new kind of enumeration but requires some inner enumeration to
feed it data to process to make that outer enumeration. If you
like the word "continuation" instead of "enumeration" that's
fine. An enumeration is nothing more than a particular kind of
continuation, namely something that successively returns the
elements of some collection, virtual or real, whereas a general
continuation might return something else such as successively
more narrow ranges around a single approximately-computed value.
In my particular application, the dynamic nesting of reference
wrappers will be recursive! I.e. there will be reference loops,
where one large enumeration is defined to include a smaller
enumeration of the same class, possibly going around the
reference loop several times, and possibly branching in a tree
structure of references, until the leaves of that kind of
enumeration get small enough to use a more basic class of
enumeration instead, finally bottoming the recursion).
Now that I've broken the program (so-far) into separate files for each
class of data being processed and the one or more enumerations dealing
with that kind of data, I can step back for a moment and see what I
have so-far, sorted by size:
8 -rw------- 1 rem user 6591 Jul 8 18:27 2005-7-ranpri-gpsq.lisp
12 -rw------- 1 rem user 11310 Jul 8 18:31 2005-7-ranpri-gp.lisp
14 -rw------- 1 rem user 13319 Jul 7 18:10 2005-7-ranpri-mf2.lisp
16 -rw------- 1 rem user 14910 Jul 7 20:43 2005-7-mbbt.lisp
16 -rw------- 1 rem user 15653 Jul 8 18:35 2005-7-ranpri-mf1.lisp
(Those sizes include: code, per-method and per-enumeration
documentation, and unit-test rigs.)
I notice the modules range from 6591 to 15653 bytes, a factor of
2.3[7..8] (*II*), which is not very wide. After seeing this, it occurs
that I could offer a fixed price per class that I write, estimating
near the high end of 15k bytes, and if it turns out that the class
wasn't as hard as I estimated so the file didn't turn out as large as I
estimated, I could offer the customer two choices:
- Get a discount from the originally quoted price.
- Think of additional features to include in the class or in any other
class within the same billing cycle, covered under the original
price quote.
*II* (Hmm, as long as I keep talking about my proposals for Interval
Arithmetic, and my proposed notation to represent known digits
and range of unknown digits for output, I might as well use the
same notation whenever I post an approximate real-number value in
a newsgroup, and here (above) is my first such usage!)
So why am I posting this? Please anybody who has ever billed software
via fixed-price contracts, if you produced Java classes or Lisp modules
of approximately that size range I cited above, how much did you charge
for each such appx.-fixed-size class/module? I need your advice how
much I should state as my going price for fully working code with
unit-test and software documentation included. What's the going rate
for professional fixed-price software contracts of approximately the
size cited above.
P.S. If anybody has looked at the filenames listed above, and it
whetted your curiosity to know what big project I'm working on, just
ask and I'll tell. But if you read what I was posting about this topic
in sci.math a few weeks, you can probably guess, and I encourage to
post a followup making your guess public.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> In recent years I've been unable to find anyone willing to pay me...
We have been around this bush. What open source projects have you started
patching since I suggested it?
--
Phlip
http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:31:26 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote or quoted :
> I would like to get at
>least Federal minimum wage, just as if I had an hourly job, but I have
>no idea how many hours a project should cost hence no idea how much
>would be a fair asking price.
There are websites where people offer contracts and bid on them.
check these out to get an idea the going rates.
--
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum. Rumsfeld confesses on video.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
From: IchBin
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <BxqdnTgBG5IuSlLfUSdV9g@ptd.net>
Roedy Green wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:31:26 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
> see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote or quoted :
>
>> I would like to get at
>> least Federal minimum wage, just as if I had an hourly job, but I have
>> no idea how many hours a project should cost hence no idea how much
>> would be a fair asking price.
>
> There are websites where people offer contracts and bid on them.
> check these out to get an idea the going rates.
>
Example would be http://www.getafreelancer.com
--
Thanks in Advance...
IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA
__________________________________________________________________________
' If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"'
-William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-)
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> A while back some people on the net suggested I work for a fixed-price
> contract instead of an hourly wage. That way the company can tell me
> what they need, and I can do all the work on my own time, and then when
> I have something fully working I present it to them and they pay me
> that fixed amount, and they don't have to worry I'll bill lots of hours
> without getting the job done. But I never did that before, so I had no
> idea how much to charge for any given program. I would like to get at
> least Federal minimum wage, just as if I had an hourly job, but I have
> no idea how many hours a project should cost hence no idea how much
> would be a fair asking price.
This is rather easy.
If the target business process earns the corporation X dollar/year
without your software, but earns X+Y dollar/year with your software,
then you can sell them at a price that depends on the time to ROI they
will accept:
P/Y = TTROI
P = TTROI * Y
For example, if their business practice on investing is to expect a
TTROI of 0.25 year, and your software will allow them to earn 1 more
dollar/year/customer and they have 100,000 customers, that is, your
software will earn them 100,000 more dollar/year, then you can quote
it for P = 0.25*100,000 = $25,000.
Note the software might allow them either to increase their income,
or to decrease their costs; it doesn't matter, what counts is that it
increases their benefice.
Also it's possible that the software allow them only to increase the
number of customer even at the cost of a decreased earned
$/year/customer: it's better to have 100,000 customers/year earning $1
each, than only $10,000 customers/year earning $2 each. Your Y will
still be positive: $100,000 - $20,000 = $80,000.
It might be profitable to target businesses that accept longer TTROI,
or businesses with a greater number of customers (or with a greater
potential increase in customer number)
or software that give greater improvments in productivity ($/year/customer),
or both.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
The rule for today:
Touch my tail, I shred your hand.
New rule tomorrow.
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> For example, if their business practice on investing is to expect a
> TTROI of 0.25 year, and your software will allow them to earn 1 more
> dollar/year/customer and they have 100,000 customers, that is, your
> software will earn them 100,000 more dollar/year, then you can quote
> it for P = 0.25*100,000 = $25,000.
So what would be the rationale for charging double for the same product
simply because they are willing to wait six months rather than three
for ROI?
jonathon <···········@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> > For example, if their business practice on investing is to expect a
> > TTROI of 0.25 year, and your software will allow them to earn 1 more
> > dollar/year/customer and they have 100,000 customers, that is, your
> > software will earn them 100,000 more dollar/year, then you can quote
> > it for P = 0.25*100,000 = $25,000.
>
> So what would be the rationale for charging double for the same product
> simply because they are willing to wait six months rather than three
> for ROI?
That they will pay for it. You don't need to have a rationale -- you
figure out what term ROI they will accept and then price your product
accordingly. If other people are out there who can and will do the same
job for a lot less, then you can't use that idea. But if you are the
only one who is calling on them (or whom they know) who can implement
the idea in question, then you should be able to get whatever the cost
savings merit from an investment standpoint.
There's a problem with Pascal's analysis though -- it doesn't allow for
uncertainty, and uncertainty is a very hard sell. You can do the math
to allow for it, but if the person you are talking to doesn't understand
things like Expected value, utility of money and other speculation (or
gambling) principles, they are going to tend to be much more risk averse
than they "should" be depending on the decision maker's personality.
Michael
"jonathon" <···········@bigfoot.com> writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> For example, if their business practice on investing is to expect a
>> TTROI of 0.25 year, and your software will allow them to earn 1 more
>> dollar/year/customer and they have 100,000 customers, that is, your
>> software will earn them 100,000 more dollar/year, then you can quote
>> it for P = 0.25*100,000 = $25,000.
>
> So what would be the rationale for charging double for the same product
> simply because they are willing to wait six months rather than three
> for ROI?
Who told anything about reason? It's psychology. You approach the
"decider" with this argument: "Hey, with my product, in six months
you'll be earning twice the dollars you earn now.". While you don't
have a competitor bidding a TTROI of three months, you don't need to
bid less. If you good at it (you approach the decider in the right
context with the right adornments), you can even bid a TTROI of one
year.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we. -- Georges W. Bush
Pascal Bourguignon <···@informatimago.com> writes:
> "jonathon" <···········@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> > Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> >> For example, if their business practice on investing is to expect a
> >> TTROI of 0.25 year, and your software will allow them to earn 1 more
> >> dollar/year/customer and they have 100,000 customers, that is, your
> >> software will earn them 100,000 more dollar/year, then you can quote
> >> it for P = 0.25*100,000 = $25,000.
> >
> > So what would be the rationale for charging double for the same product
> > simply because they are willing to wait six months rather than three
> > for ROI?
>
> Who told anything about reason? It's psychology. You approach the
> "decider" with this argument: "Hey, with my product, in six months
> you'll be earning twice the dollars you earn now.". While you don't
> have a competitor bidding a TTROI of three months, you don't need to
> bid less. If you good at it (you approach the decider in the right
> context with the right adornments), you can even bid a TTROI of one
> year.
>
A lot of people overlook the psychology aspect when first starting
out. I lost a few initial contracts because I was too cheap and
prospective clients thought I was either an amateur or didn't do a
good job. When I increased by rate, I began to get more jobs. At the
time, I felt uncomfortable asking for what seemed to be far in excess
to what the work was worth - then I realised if the market would
handle it, why not get what I could - especially if doing so gave me
more choice.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87y88610ev.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> A lot of people overlook the psychology aspect when first starting
> out. I lost a few initial contracts because I was too cheap and
> prospective clients thought I was either an amateur or didn't do a
> good job. When I increased by rate, I began to get more jobs. At the
> time, I felt uncomfortable asking for what seemed to be far in excess
> to what the work was worth - then I realised if the market would
> handle it, why not get what I could - especially if doing so gave me
> more choice.
I know the owner of a local retail store. He was asked by a customer
why he charged so much for the products he sold. His answer was, "I
charge what the market will bear."
Seems like a good strategy to me.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
Nobody nowhere on the planet is going to pay for software based on the
number of bytes in the source files! Software is not like potatos, you
don't get more money for providing more. Besides, most of the time,
the better you understand the problem domain and the higher your skill
and experience, the more you achieve with less.
If you are going to write software for a fixed price contract, the
only way to determine the right price is to have an accurate idea of
how long it will take you to do the work. The only way you can know
this is through a combination of knowledge/understanding regarding the
problem area and an accurate and honest estimate of your level of
productivity. It is also very important to have a clear and agreed
scope which not only includes specific deliverables, but also what is
not to be delivered and what the costs would be for changing the
scope.
To work out how much to charge for some software you write, you need
to know -
1. How many hours it will take you to complete the job. A useful trick
is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
come into play.
2. Determine how much you want to earn a year
3. Work out how many hours you can work a year. A useful formula is
(52 - holidays) * workdays_in_week * hours_in_workday = year_hours
Note that this is meant to be hours you can charge for, so you
cannot have 7 wordays in a week because there are lots of things
you need to do which you cannot charge for (chase down work,
marketing, taxes, general office admin etc). I've found that if
you are doing long term type contracts, you can generally work 3
days out of every 7, but if your doing short term contracts, you
need to do more admin and therefore can only work 2 days per
week. Its also important to put a real number on the hours you are
prepared to work in a day - don't put 16, put 8 or maybe 9. Note
that I'm assuming a 5 day working week with two day weekends.
4. Calculate your hourly rate by dividing your year_hours into your
targeted income for the year. Then multiple that rate by the number
of hours it will take to do the job and you have a figure you
should charge. Simple.
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Bulent Murtezaoglu
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <8764vkuuy9.fsf@p4.internal>
>>>>> "TX" == Tim X <Tim> writes:
[sane advice deleted]
[...]
TX> 4. Calculate your hourly rate by dividing your year_hours into
TX> your targeted income for the year. Then multiple that rate by
TX> the number of hours it will take to do the job and you have a
TX> figure you should charge. Simple.
Simple only in a world where the market will bear the price that you
compute. What you say is best seen as an inequality that needs to be
satisfied if the reality is to match one's financial plans (+ gravy).
Reasonable customers in a fairly stable market usually have target
prices within +/- %25 or so of what the 'going rate' is for a
particular kind of work anyway. If you don't have an preexisting
happy relationship or have word-of-mouth 'super guy' credentials,
anything much higher gets a "thank you for your time," (or, in my part
of the world, most likely a lecture that essentially tells you you are
a fool or a greedy bastard or some other insult) anything much lower
is met with suspicion. Absent financial bubbles, easy money is there
usually when the market is distorted in your favor by fads and you end
up being far more productive than the other guys on the market (eg
Peter's gigamonkey for a slight discount off of gigamoney analogy.
Paul Graham, it seems, had both the bubble and the comparatively
crippled competition working in his favor; but then again he wasn't
working under a contract.).
cheers,
BM
Bulent Murtezaoglu <··@acm.org> wrote:
+---------------
| >>>>> "TX" == Tim X <Tim> writes:
| [sane advice deleted]
| [...]
| TX> 4. Calculate your hourly rate by dividing your year_hours into
| TX> your targeted income for the year. Then multiple that rate by
| TX> the number of hours it will take to do the job and you have a
| TX> figure you should charge. Simple.
|
| Simple only in a world where the market will bear the price that you
| compute. What you say is best seen as an inequality that needs to be
| satisfied if the reality is to match one's financial plans (+ gravy).
| Reasonable customers in a fairly stable market usually have target
| prices within +/- %25 or so of what the 'going rate' is for a
| particular kind of work anyway. If you don't have an preexisting
| happy relationship or have word-of-mouth 'super guy' credentials,
| anything much higher gets a "thank you for your time," ...
+---------------
But the "Subject:" here is FIXED-PRICE contracts [a.k.a. piece-work].
If one considers themselves to be especially good, one can price the
job at what an *average* Joe would take to do it (with average tools,
if we're using Lisp), which will be some huge number, even apply a small
discount to that and be quite "competitive", but then rake in a very
high actual hourly rate if in fact it takes you a *lot* less time to
finish the task than Joe Average.
The downside of fixed-price work is that if one badly mis-estimates
the time required to complete task, one can get very badly soaked,
since it has to be finished anyway [as one watches the effective
hourly rate asymptote hyperbolically towards zero].
Still, I have personally found that small-to-medium [$10-20K] fixed-price
contracts can be a good way to get one's foot in the door at a large
company, especially if the task is one that is in some sense "optional"
for the client [e.g., an improvement to their network automation, say].
The contractor assumes almost all the risk [which makes the client happy!],
and gets a large reward if he/she is a good estimator.
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <874qau2fvz.fsf@david-steuber.com>
····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> But the "Subject:" here is FIXED-PRICE contracts [a.k.a. piece-work].
> If one considers themselves to be especially good, one can price the
> job at what an *average* Joe would take to do it (with average tools,
> if we're using Lisp), which will be some huge number, even apply a small
> discount to that and be quite "competitive", but then rake in a very
> high actual hourly rate if in fact it takes you a *lot* less time to
> finish the task than Joe Average.
>
> The downside of fixed-price work is that if one badly mis-estimates
> the time required to complete task, one can get very badly soaked,
> since it has to be finished anyway [as one watches the effective
> hourly rate asymptote hyperbolically towards zero].
This is an excellent point. If you know your limitations, you can
take on the right jobs for the right price and reduce the odds of
getting soaked by those cases where delivering on your promise costs
you more than you agreed to charge.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
Tim Cross wrote
>A useful trick
> is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
> This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
> come into play.
Every project will last three times longer and cost three times more
than your best estimation ,
even if you apply this rule to your estimates.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <3jf52iFp9up0U1@individual.net>
·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> Tim Cross wrote
>
>>A useful trick
>>is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
>>This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
>>come into play.
>
>
> Every project will last three times longer and cost three times more
> than your best estimation ,
> even if you apply this rule to your estimates.
Does this mean that the factor is nine, or that making estimates
results in you taking three times the time of your estimate?
--
By claiming a patent [...], I'm saying that you are not permitted
to use your own knowledge to further your ends. By what right?
Roderick T. Long
From: Paul Wallich
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <dau2pn$gl9$1@reader2.panix.com>
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Tim Cross wrote
>>
>>> A useful trick
>>> is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
>>> This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
>>> come into play.
>>
>>
>>
>> Every project will last three times longer and cost three times more
>> than your best estimation ,
>> even if you apply this rule to your estimates.
>
>
> Does this mean that the factor is nine, or that making estimates results
> in you taking three times the time of your estimate?
This is just a restatement of Hoftstadter's Principle: "Everything takes
longer than you think it will, even after you have allowed for
Hofstadter's principle." But for people who are not long-practiced in
making estimates, with a large database of cases to inform them, 3/pi is
usually a pretty good correction factor to account for all the stupid
things that aren't really important.
paul
Paul Wallich <··@panix.com> writes:
> Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> > ·············@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Cross wrote
> >>
> >>> A useful trick
> >>> is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
> >>> This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
> >>> come into play.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Every project will last three times longer and cost three times more
> >> than your best estimation ,
> >> even if you apply this rule to your estimates.
> > Does this mean that the factor is nine, or that making estimates
> > results in you taking three times the time of your estimate?
>
> This is just a restatement of Hoftstadter's Principle: "Everything
> takes longer than you think it will, even after you have allowed for
> Hofstadter's principle." But for people who are not long-practiced in
> making estimates, with a large database of cases to inform them, 3/pi
> is usually a pretty good correction factor to account for all the
> stupid things that aren't really important.
>
Exactly. After you have lots of experience and have learnt to factor
in the less obvious things and have a more accurate measure of your
true productivity, you can reduce the multiplier to something less
than pi, though I would still include some heuristic multiple - an
error correction if you like.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
>Does this mean that the factor is nine, or that making estimates
>results in you taking three times the time of your estimate?
That means that estimating is tricky , no matter how hard you try.
and what you know (especially what you don't know).
My latest client came with a project of porting Access application
with little bit of Basic code . Their business started with 4
computers
now there are over 50 and still growing .
At the beginning they only wanted performance issues solved ,everything
else same , day before yesterday they came asking for a remote access
via internet (browser based) and BTW they're migrating their 98s to
Suse .
I wonder what's next PocketPC . So much for my planning now i'm where i
was 3 months ago , at the beginning .
> My latest client came with a project of porting Access application
>with little bit of Basic code . Their business started with 4
>computers
>now there are over 50 and still growing .
>At the beginning they only wanted performance issues solved ,everything
>else same , day before yesterday they came asking for a remote
access
>via internet (browser based) and BTW they're migrating their 98s to
>Suse .
>I wonder what's next PocketPC . So much for my planning now i'm where i
>was 3 months ago , at the beginning .
They agreed to port their app to Lisp and migrate to Linux , right?
Music for my ears.
And i thought that every reasonable managers are extuinguished by now.
·············@hotmail.com writes:
> Tim Cross wrote
> >A useful trick
> > is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
> > This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
> > come into play.
>
> Every project will last three times longer and cost three times more
> than your best estimation ,
> even if you apply this rule to your estimates.
>
No, it means that most people under estimate how long it will take and
how much it will cost. By using a heuristic of multiplying by pi, you
are more likely to get a true estimate of what it will take/cost.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87ackm2jdt.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> 1. How many hours it will take you to complete the job. A useful trick
> is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
> This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
> come into play.
This works for you?
I hate time estimation. I always underestimate the time. When I take
that into account, I still fall short. eg, I multiply my estimate by
pi, it takes me 2pi my original estimate. So I change the rule to
3pi. Doesn't help. It always takes longer.
Except for when it doesn't.
The reality is, it takes as long as it will take.
The rest of your post was excellent. I'm going to keep it in case I
ever decide to do independent contracting.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
>
> > 1. How many hours it will take you to complete the job. A useful trick
> > is to make your estimate and then multiply it by pi.
> > This often gives a more accurate figure once unexpected factors
> > come into play.
>
> This works for you?
>
> I hate time estimation. I always underestimate the time. When I take
> that into account, I still fall short. eg, I multiply my estimate by
> pi, it takes me 2pi my original estimate. So I change the rule to
> 3pi. Doesn't help. It always takes longer.
Estimating the time to complete some software project is probably one
of the hardest skills to obtain and it is inherently error prone. I've
found the pi figure to work for me reasonably well. However, I also
tend to take work in problem domains that I'm very familiar with. If
your trying to get work in some area you have never done any work in
before, its very very difficult to get an accurate time estimate. Its
probably more an art than a science and the figure you use to correct
for under estimation is pretty personal and depends on both the
problem domain and your ability to accurately estimate your skills and
level of productivity in that area.
When I have been offer or likely to get work in a new area, I tend to
do as much research as possible prior to giving a quote or working out
the final contract. I also try to ensure that the agreement is very
clear about what is and is not included and that this is somehow
objectively quantifiable. I try to find out what other systems have
been developed for that area and look for similar projects etc. It can
be difficult to get such info and sometimes all you can do is try to
understand the problem domain as much as possible and make an educated
guess.
> Except for when it doesn't.
Yeah, things are more like they are now than they have ever been before.
> The reality is, it takes as long as it will take.
Yep, and the skill is in being able to judge how long that will be as
accurately as possible.
> The rest of your post was excellent. I'm going to keep it in case I
> ever decide to do independent contracting.
>
Well, it is stuff which worked for me - YMMV. However, be warned that
consulting is not for everyone. Like everything else, it has pros and
cons. I'm doing pretty much no private consulting now, but thats
mainly due to a change in my personal life which made consulting a
less viable option than it use to be. I enjoy the more regular and
predictable income, but I miss the level of choice and the fact no
matter how hard I work, I'm not going to change my annual salary by
much. However, I mainly work now for something to do rather than out
of a need to survive and what I'm doing is quite different for me in
that its more strategic and technological direction based with little
codeing/development. I guess in some ways, I'm in pre-retirement
slow-down. :-)
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <64v8nls1.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> I hate time estimation. I always underestimate the time. When I take
> that into account, I still fall short. eg, I multiply my estimate by
> pi, it takes me 2pi my original estimate. So I change the rule to
> 3pi. Doesn't help. It always takes longer.
Just keep multiplying by pi until you reach a fixed point.
From: Arthur Lemmens
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <opst4ettuak6vmsw@news.xs4all.nl>
Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
>
>> I hate time estimation. I always underestimate the time. When I take
>> that into account, I still fall short. eg, I multiply my estimate by
>> pi, it takes me 2pi my original estimate. So I change the rule to
>> 3pi. Doesn't help. It always takes longer.
>
> Just keep multiplying by pi until you reach a fixed point.
CL-USER 1 > (defun estimate (first-guess)
(loop for guess = first-guess then next-guess
for next-guess = (* pi guess)
until (equal guess next-guess)
finally (return guess)))
ESTIMATE
CL-USER 2 > (estimate 1.0)
+1D++0 #| +1D++0 is double-float plus-infinity |#
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
> Telecommuting is a fantasy, an urban legend.
Hmmm...apparently I, and several folks I know, are living, or more
correctly: working, in a fantasy world.
Cool! (-:
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
From: Coby Beck
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <4tSAe.106843$HI.85182@edtnps84>
"Chris Sonnack" <·····@Sonnack.com> wrote in message
·······································@4ax.com...
> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
>
>> Telecommuting is a fantasy, an urban legend.
>
> Hmmm...apparently I, and several folks I know, are living, or more
> correctly: working, in a fantasy world.
I prefer the term "virtual reality" ;)
I sometimes worry how well I will handle having to have my butt in the
office every day again (after almost 4 years with only a few months here and
there not telecommuting) if/when I change jobs next...
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Chris Sonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> writes:
> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
>
> > Telecommuting is a fantasy, an urban legend.
>
> Hmmm...apparently I, and several folks I know, are living, or more
> correctly: working, in a fantasy world.
>
> Cool! (-:
>
Me too. I telecommuted for over 6 years. Then the company was bought
and I was made to work in the office - 3 months later, they asked if
I'd like to telecommute again. I like to think it was because I was
more productive working from home, but it could have been my
personality or body odor!
Actually, when I ceased telecommuting, I actually realised I'd missed
workinig with others and I doubt I'd do it again - unless I was
semi-retired and doing it part-time.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X writes:
>>> Telecommuting is a fantasy, an urban legend.
>>
>> Hmmm...apparently I, and several folks I know, are living, or more
>> correctly: working, in a fantasy world.
>
> [snip]
>
> Actually, when I ceased telecommuting, I actually realised I'd missed
> workinig with others
I've had a similar experience. The last three positions I've had
allowed "working at home", and I've discovered that after several
days of doing so, I tend to do a fair bit of chatting with co-workers
that first day back.
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
Chris Sonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> writes:
> Tim X writes:
>
>>>> Telecommuting is a fantasy, an urban legend.
>>>
>>> Hmmm...apparently I, and several folks I know, are living, or more
>>> correctly: working, in a fantasy world.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Actually, when I ceased telecommuting, I actually realised I'd missed
>> workinig with others
>
> I've had a similar experience. The last three positions I've had
> allowed "working at home", and I've discovered that after several
> days of doing so, I tend to do a fair bit of chatting with co-workers
> that first day back.
But now we have irc, news, iChat, iChat+iSight!
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Nobody can fix the economy. Nobody can be trusted with their finger
on the button. Nobody's perfect. VOTE FOR NOBODY.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
> In recent years I've been unable to find anyone willing to pay me an
> hourly rate for my fine work writing computer software. Apparently no
> company is willing to hire anyone who has been out of work, for fear of
> paying even minimum wage and getting somebody nobody else wanted and
> now they know it's because they can't get any software working within a
> reasonble time (hence for a reasonable amount of wages given hourly
> pay).
Robert, I think you should pretend that everything you think you know
about work and what companies are willing to do is incorrect. Flush it
all out. Empty your mind. Then do some reading.
You have so many *huge* misconceptions, and you filter all your
experiences to match your map of the economic world as a brutally hard
place where no-one ever hires anyone for a living wage, and nothing you
can do will ever result in getting back the kind of career you had 15
years ago.
Programmers can't ask for minimum wage, because professional programmers
*don't* *get* *paid* *minimum* *wage*. If you walk into my company and
claim you are a software developer and expect me to pay $7 an hour for
your labor, and I don't know you, and I can't watch you do real
programming work in front of me -- I'm going to assume you are a
*crank*, and not a developer.
Competent developers in *any* language, even baby scripters make at
*least* $30K a year just about anywhere in the US or other rich
countries. Probably much more in the bay area. Competent *secretaries*
make at least $30K a year, as do competent graphic artists and any
number of other office workers. Do you think software development is
easier than that? Is what you are doing less valuable to your potential
customer than those jobs would be to an appropriate enterprise? Do you
think the pool of competent programmers is bigger relative to the
demand?
If you think your skills are worthless, why would anyone else think they
are worth anything?
> So why am I posting this? Please anybody who has ever billed software
> via fixed-price contracts, if you produced Java classes or Lisp modules
> of approximately that size range I cited above, how much did you charge
> for each such appx.-fixed-size class/module?
Are you kidding me? The price per byte of source code is exactly zero.
Nobody cares how much source you write. They care about what your
program *does*. They care about how much money or time it saves them,
or how much profit they will make on new business it allows them to get.
If you can't come up with a way to estimate those numbers and it is not
self-evident to the potential customer, then they will not pay you a
dime for any amount of code.
Secondly, if you are not charging an amount that will equate to at
*least* $30 per billable hour, nobody will take you seriously. There is
almost no profession or trade that doesn't bill at that rate or more.
Car mechanics, house painters, and small job handymen bill at least that
much. If you aren't asking for that much on a contract basis
(especially short term contracts), it will be assumed that you don't
have that much skill.
Michael
Michael Sullivan wrote:
> You have so many *huge* misconceptions, and you filter all your
> experiences to match your map of the economic world as a brutally hard
> place where no-one ever hires anyone for a living wage, and nothing you
> can do will ever result in getting back the kind of career you had 15
> years ago.
Thank you. This is a "beliefs create reality" thing, not even a career
thing. Robert is advised to read both /What Color is my Parachute/, AND /The
Nature of Personal Reality/ by Jane Roberts.
Repeatedly asking this newsgroup for advice, then not following it, is bad
karma.
--
Phlip
http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005jul12-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ·······@bcect.com (Michael Sullivan)
> Programmers can't ask for minimum wage, because professional
> programmers *don't* *get* *paid* *minimum* *wage*.
Your comment is irrelevant because I don't ask for money from anyone,
not minimum wage, not any amount whatsoever. It makes no sense to ask
money from somebody who has never indicated any willingness to pay me
whatsoever. If and when anybody expresses an interest in paying me to
do work for them, *then* the amount they offer or the amount I ask or
the amount we agree upon would become relevant. Right now what I need
most of all is simply interviews. I haven't even one employment
interview since 1994. (Somebody at a job faire who is standing in a
booth and has everyone who walks up show their resume and he spends 10
seconds looking at my resume to declare they don't have any openings
that I'd qualify for, doesn't count as an interview.) That last
interview was on Miranda street in Palo Alto just off Foothill
Expressway. I remember that street because that's my daughter's name
(named after a character in the StarTrek-TOS series). The next-to-last
interview was about four hours long, 45 minutes with each of five
interviewers, for a company on Middlefield near 237, in 1993.Dec. When
I got back home from that totally exhausting interview, my wife accused
me of being out with another woman the whole time, and refused to let
me call the company on the phone to have her talk to them to convince
her it was a job interview that took so long. That company strung me
along more than two months before they finally told me they hadn't
decided to hire me. The third-from-last job interview I can't remember
whether it was for RSA data security or the company in Concord or what.
That second-to-last-interview was so horribly exhausting it tended to
erase my memory of the sequence leading up to it.
> If you walk into my company and claim you are a software developer
> and expect me to pay $7 an hour for your labor, and I don't know you,
> and I can't watch you do real programming work in front of me -- I'm
> going to assume you are a *crank*, and not a developer.
And that whole diatribe of yours is a strawman, because I *never* walk
into any company *expecting* them to hire me, at any price, whatsoever.
I hope they'll hire me, but I would never *expect* you to hire me.
Also, I've offered to do trial work for free just to prove I can do
something useful very quickly, get it up and running in a few hours one
day, but nobody has been willing to let me demonstrate. So your remark
about "can't watch me do real programming..." is bullshit. Come here
right now (well not now at midnight, but tomorrow when it's legal
visiting hours in this subsidized housing complex) and I'll work for
you right in front of your eyes, and then I still won't *expect* you to
proceed to hire me, but I *will* expect to post to the net that I did
what I said I could do. So I've made the offer to contest your
bullshit. The ball is in your court. Put up or shut up. I can
demonstrate either Lisp (CMUCL) or Java (J2SE 1.3.1), your choice.
> Competent *secretaries* make at least $30K a year,
Competant *employed* secretaries only. Unemployed secretaries don't
make $30K/yr or anything even close.
> Do you think software development is easier than that?
For me, yes. I have no idea how to do, or I'm incapable of doing, the
kinds of tasks that secretaries usually do: schedule meetings, deal
with office politics, schedule airline flights, type 125 WPM (I can
type about 60 WPM, after deducting 5*errors, during a short test, but
then I'm exhausted for an hour or so), understanding strange foreign
accents over the phone, hearing five people talk at the same time
without spacing out, understanding somebody in high-background-noise
environment, switch back and forth between multiple tasks every 2-3
minutes without getting confused, read or type or think at the same
time as listening to somebody talk to me, make coffee, remember names
and faces of new people I've just seen for the first time.
Designing and implementing computer software to solve specific problems
that are well-defined, in a quiet environment with nobody interrupting
me or talking in the same room, is a lot easier for me than what a
secretary does.
> Do you think the pool of competent programmers is bigger relative to
> the demand?
If you're referring to people capable of designing and implementing new
software, yes, there are hardly any jobs available, but lots of
unemployed people begging for such jobs.
If you mean people with exactly the skill sets required according to
typical job ads, no, there's probably not one person in the world with
all those skills simultaneously in one person.
> If you think your skills are worthless ...
From a false premise like that, anything you say next is worthless.
(If you don't believe that "a implies b" has the same truth-table as
"not-a or b", you have some urgent homework to do.)
> They care about what your program *does*.
No they don't. They *should* care that I have produced lots of good
working software and I can make more even now, but nobody ever cares
what I can do. Not one person (other than myself) has expressed any
interest in any software I've written in the past 15 years. I've been
begging people to look at my software I've already done, but they say
they don't have the time or interest. The closest I ever came to
somebody showing an interest was when I drove around to *all* the
employment agencies/recruiters in Mountain View trying to show them my
CGI/CMUCL demo, and only one would look at, a guy at Volt, and he said
he liked it, but he recruit only for MicroSoft and they haven't been
hiring since the recession started in early 2001 and show no prospect
of hiring any time soon. When I called back another year he said they
still weren't hiring, haven't been hiring the whole time from 2001.Jan
to last time I asked. But after I left his office, as far as I know he
never again looked at my program, so I don't count him as showing
interest in it, and he didn't want to see any other of my software
whatsoever.
> They care about how much money or time it saves them, or how much
> profit they will make on new business it allows them to get. If you
> can't come up with a way to estimate those numbers and it is not
> self-evident to the potential customer, then they will not pay you a
> dime for any amount of code.
I have not the foggiest idea how much money some company will make in
the upcoming years. Even their Chief Financial Officer can't say that,
although at least he is privy to inside information that would give him
a Sahara-snowball's chance of making a halfway decent guess. Me, I have
*no* inside information, I'm not privy to their confidential business
plan or internal projects etc. so how do you expect me to do better
than their CFO at predicting their upcoming profit with and without my
new software?
> if you are not charging an amount that will equate to at *least* $30
> per billable hour, nobody will take you seriously.
What, you expect me to send a bill to somebody who has never given me
any reason whatsoever to expect them to ever hire me or pay me
anything?? Wake up, idiot! I can't charge somebody until and unless
that person agrees to hire me.
Should I start charging you $60/hr for the time it takes me to rebut
your stupid newsgroup postings?? Can I quote your remarks as evidence
that you offered to enter into a binding contract with me for more than
$30/hr for my services, and now you owe me for my time, at my stated
rate of $60/hr which is the going rate for consultants who have 22+
years experience as I do, whereupon if you don't pay I can send your
account to a collection agency and expect to collect on it?
P.S. I'm still pissed that RSA Data Security didn't hire me even though
I was fully qualified for the opening they had. That's the one job
where I got interviewed and they were impressed with me and I really was
fully qualified and I should have gotten the job.
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: ·······@bcect.com (Michael Sullivan)
> > Programmers can't ask for minimum wage, because professional
> > programmers *don't* *get* *paid* *minimum* *wage*.
>
> Your comment is irrelevant because I don't ask for money from anyone,
> not minimum wage, not any amount whatsoever. It makes no sense to ask
> money from somebody who has never indicated any willingness to pay me
> whatsoever.
Having read your initial post, and this one, I have what may sound like
a hostile suggestion. I really do not mean it to be, but I have not
found a comforting way to say this.
Your attitude, from the outside, _appears_ to be one that will offend
many potential employeers. I am not saying it is, just that it sure
sounds somewhat combative and angry. Employers want to see eagerness to
do the work, combined with an awareness of how what you do will make
them more money, or will let them accomplish their goals.
You are implicitly asking them for money, even if you are not holding
out your hand the moment you walk in the door. Part of your task is to
convince them that you are someone they want to give money to, in return
for what you offer them. That you are someone that they want to spend
time with, really. For me, a big part of that is showing such a
potential client that they will make more money, more sales, more
science, whatever, by having me help them, and that the time they spend
will be pleasant, rather than combative.
I am consultant. I solve problems for people, so they can get more
done. If someone calls, I may well go out on spec, with no written
contract. I may spend a day or two talking to them, building a
proposal, and other good stuff like that. Even though I do not quote a
rate, or a point at which I will stop, they know that this work is
supported by the eventual contract we hope to sign. Thus, if we do not
seem, in my opinion, to be making progress, I may stop talking to them.
Not in anger, just because I eventually have to do work that earns money.
Consulting groups like ours charge between $100 and $150 an hour,
depending on the exact skill set of the person at the client. To earn
that, a consultant has to earn them roughly $4000-$7500 a week, and we
always keep that number in the back of our minds. We earn them that,
because we have done this before, and we know what works for the markets
we are familiar with. We may spend a month on the beach getting a new
technology to the point where we can charge those rates, perhaps in the
context of an open source project.
If you do not have a good track record, you still need to be charging
enough to justify their time. If the person you interact with earns $50
an hour, then one marathon meeting can cost the company more than your
weekly salary or bill. I would not go below $15 an hour, and something
in the $30-$50 sounds a lot closer to what I would expect for a
reasonably experienced and competent software guy.
The true rate, of course, really depends on what you can do for a
potential employer. As an salaried employee, you should only half to
two thirds of that hourly rate goes to you - the rest goes to benefits,
overhead, and the like. Look at how much the work you propose to do
would be worth to them, then charge accordingly. You do not get all the
money you save them, but you should get a reasonable fraction, and
should be able to explain why that is a reasonable fraction.
If you do not know what your skills are worth, find an open source or a
volunteer non profit, and do some work for them. Then watch really
carefully for chances to get more done, or to save money by providing a
decent service. This is how you know what that dollar figure is.
I am not trying to be flippant, nor am I trying to be mean. The above
touchy-feely stuff is the best way I know to explain how you justify a
potential wage to someone, and even if you want to do the work for free,
you still should know what that work is worth.
Scott
--
·····@alodar.nospamtome.com
Java and Database consulting for the life sciences
--
Scott Ellsworth
·····@alodar.nospam.com
Java and database consulting for the life sciences
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005jul27-022@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Scott Ellsworth <·····@alodar.com>
> Your attitude, from the outside, _appears_ to be one that will offend
> many potential employeers.
I have 22 years experience in writing computer software, including
assembly or machine language for several different CPU types, including
several mid-level and high-level programming languages, including
utilities and applications in many different fields. I'm currently
available for work and seeking employment or contract work. In your
personal opinion, what part of that would an employer find offensive?
> Employers want to see eagerness to do the work,
Before I respond to that remark, I need clarification: Are you
referring to paid or unpaid work? Are you saying employers want to see
people eager to do unpaid work or paid work?
> combined with an awareness of how what you do will make them more
> money,
I'm sorry but I'm not privy to the internal financial affirs of various
companies. It's the job of the hiring manager to observe what software
I can produce and then decide whether such software would or would not
result in profit for the company.
> or will let them accomplish their goals.
Tell me what their goals are, and I might be able to say whether my
softare wuold contribute toward accomplishing those goals. But I can't
guess what the goals of some company might be, at least not in any way
relevant to deciding whether my software would help that goal. Is the
company interested in generalizing floating point arithmetic toward
guaranteed accuracy via interval arithmetic? Yes I can do that. Is the
company interested in automating the process of training new employees
how to use their equipment? I can help there too. I can help toward
many such different kinds of company goals, but until somebody suggests
such a goal to me, or responds to the many ideas I've posted already on
newsgroups about things I'd like to work on, there's no way to know if
there's a match or not.
> You are implicitly asking them for money, even if you are not holding
> out your hand the moment you walk in the door.
There's a subtle but important difference between what you say and what
I do. Consider the difference between the high-pressure car salesman
who drags you to a "special" car and virtually insists you buy it,
compared to a customer service representative at Macy's who is
obviously there available to help you but who waits for you to ask a
question about something or upon noticing you fretting around like
you're frustrated trying to find something might ask if you would like
some help finding something.
When I am contacting some company about employment, I'm merely saying
that I'm available, presenting a summary of what I can do, and leaving
it to them to take an interest and express that interest to me and ask
for more info. I don't harass the employer like a car salesman trying
to insist they should pay for what I offer.
I'm not directly asking them for money, like **expecting** that they
would be the next company to hire me, and getting angry if they don't
say yes. I'm simply stating that I'm available if they happen to want
to spend money to hire me. It's a hypothetical, I'm available if
you want to pay for my services, rather than GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME.
So do you understand why it pisses me off when you express it in a way
that makes it seem like I'm demanding to be hired instead of merely
offering my services contingent on suitable pay?
As I said several times, RSA Data Security was the only company where I
really expected to be hired, because I had already on my own time
developed software exactly like their main line of business, and I was
quite unpleasantly surprised when they didn't hire me. With every other
company, I think of it as a chance, maybe they'll hire me and maybe
they won't, and I have no expectation either way.
> Part of your task is to convince them that you are someone they want
> to give money to, in return for what you offer them.
I don't understand the difference between what you're asking me to do
to potential employers and what the high-pressure car salesman, or the
door-to-door salesman, does to the poor customer. I'm just not the kind
of person to treat people with such disrespect. If you mean something
else, you're not communicating it well.
From a scientific or aware-consumer viewpoint, that is the policy that
actions speak louder than words, that proof is in the pudding, that
evidence weighs a lot more than what you say, the only way any
potential employer could be really sure I can do the job would be if
they gave me an "audition", some small exercise where I could prove my
muster. I've offered to do auditions but no company has taken me up on
my offer so-far. (If any potential employer is reading this and wants
to audition me, connect to my login page:
http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/LogForm.cgi
log in as guest1 with password free, and send me a short message
introducing yourself. Or send me e-mail to my Yahoo! Mail address,
where your e-mail will be mixed in with tens of thousands of spam, then
connect to my login page to let me know you sent me the e-mail so I'll
be able to sift through ths spam haystack looking for your e-mail
needle by searching specifically for your particular e-mail address.)
> If someone calls
How would anyone know to call you? My contact info has been posted on
the net many many times in my search for employment and nobody has
called me for many years. They obviously don't bother to read the
online resumes, or they would have found me and called me already, so
why would they call you?
> I would not go below $15 an hour, and something in the $30-$50 sounds
> a lot closer to what I would expect for a reasonably experienced and
> competent software guy.
Well that's about the range I would expect, but given that I have never
gotten any such offer, it seems silly to turn down any lesser offer if
it appeared. I'd much rather earn $15/hr than remain unemployed due to
holding out for $30 and refusing to take any less. The highest offer I
ever actually got was $25/hr 1099, and I took it.
> If you do not know what your skills are worth, find an open source or
> a volunteer non profit, and do some work for them.
I've already spent several years doing that sort of thing, and it never
turned into any chance of money in that area, and I'm pretty much
burned out giving my free labor and getting neither money nor any
social benefit in return, just take my labor and throw shit back at me.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Sorry if you don't like my current attitude, but I tried your idea for
quite a number of years and it didn't result in any money, ever, and
I'm not willing to continue making the same mistake just because you
beg me to and plead that it won't be so bad this time.
So anyway, you say I should demand $30-50 per hour, and the other guy
says I should demand at least $80-100 per hour and not take anything
less, because anything less than $80/hr shows I'm completely worthless.
(Yes, I'm paying attention to the various advice I get in this thread.)
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
> ....what part of that would an employer find offensive?
Speaking as someone who's spent part of his time interviewing prospective
new hires recently....
>> Employers want to see eagerness to do the work,
>
> Before I respond to that remark, I need clarification:
That's offensive. Just answer the question. If the answer depends,
then provide two conditional answers.
Or learn to ask for clarification more politely. You imply the question
was poorly asked. It wasn't--you weren't able to parse it, so assume
the burden of seeking clarification *politely*.
> Are you saying employers want to see people eager to do unpaid work
> or paid work?
Learn to use your head. What do you *think* employers want? What makes
sense? If you can't figure out something that trivial, you're not someone
I'd want on *my* team.
>> combined with an awareness of how what you do will make them more
>> money,
>
> I'm sorry but I'm not privy to the internal financial affirs of various
> companies.
That's an offensive answer. Again, use your head. If you don't have a
clue how you can be valuable to me, then you probably aren't.
> It's the job of the hiring manager to observe what software I can
> produce and then decide whether such software....
I don't care just about "what software [you] can produce", I care about
your skills in several areas. Many of those areas go beyond your ability
to hack. Your ability to think for yourself and to work with others is
of great value. We can teach you a technique or a language, if necessary,
but we probably can't teach you to think or work well with others.
>> or will let them accomplish their goals.
>
> Tell me what their goals are,...
Why are you interviewing with us if you don't have a clue what we do?
>> You are implicitly asking them for money, even if you are not holding
>> out your hand the moment you walk in the door.
>
> There's a subtle but important difference between what you say and what
> I do. Consider the difference between the high-pressure car salesman
> who drags you to a "special" car and virtually insists you buy it,
> [snip]
There's a big difference between "implictly" and "high pressure".
By applying for a job, you are saying, "I'm worth the pay." Or did you
expect to volunteer your services?
> I'm not directly asking them for money, like **expecting** that they
> would be the next company to hire me,...
Do you really not perceive the difference between "expecting" someone
to hire you and the fact that, by applying for a job, you ARE asking
to be paid?
> So do you understand why it pisses me off when you express it in a way
> that makes it seem like I'm demanding to be hired instead of merely
> offering my services contingent on suitable pay?
No, because I doubt anyone else perceived it that way. That you did
is (1) rather typical of the behavior I've seen from you here, and (2)
exactly why you're one of the last people I'd ever consider hiring.
> As I said several times, RSA Data Security was the only company where I
> really expected to be hired, because I had already on my own time
> developed software exactly like their main line of business, and I was
> quite unpleasantly surprised when they didn't hire me.
So,.... If I made widgets and you showed me a widget you made, you'd just
expect me to hire you? And you'd be pissed if I didn't? What if I had
no openings or no budget? What if I didn't care for how you presented
yourself?
>> Part of your task is to convince them that you are someone they want
>> to give money to, in return for what you offer them.
>
> I don't understand the difference between what you're asking me to do
> to potential employers and what the high-pressure car salesman, or the
> door-to-door salesman, does to the poor customer. I'm just not the kind
> of person to treat people with such disrespect.
There is considerable middle ground between treating people with disrespect
and selling yourself to a prospective employer.
> If you mean something else, you're not communicating it well.
THAT's pretty offensive. A much nicer way to put it is to say that you
don't understand.
You have a tendancy to blame others for things that you should change
in yourself. Until you recognize this, odds are strongly against your
finding employment.
> ...the only way any potential employer could be really sure I can do
> the job would be if they gave me an "audition", some small exercise
> where I could prove my muster.
What do you think a job interview is? Exactly that. Only you are being
tested on your ability to pass muster in areas besides just hacking.
> I've offered to do auditions but no company has taken me up on
> my offer so-far.
I've read you write here something to the effect that, if you audition
and "pass" then the employer agrees to hire you. That's absurd. Once
again, hiring is based on many factors besides hacking ability.
> (If any potential employer is reading this and wants
> to audition me, connect to my login page:
> http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/LogForm.cgi
> log in as guest1 with password free, and send me a short message
> introducing yourself. Or send me e-mail to my Yahoo! Mail address,
> where your e-mail will be mixed in with tens of thousands of spam, then
> connect to my login page to let me know you sent me the e-mail so I'll
> be able to sift through ths spam haystack looking for your e-mail
> needle by searching specifically for your particular e-mail address.)
Do you really think any employer will bother to jump through your hoops?
If you're this demanding *before* I hire you, I shudder think how you
might behave on the job.
> How would anyone know to call you? My contact info has been posted on
> the net many many times in my search for employment and nobody has
> called me for many years. They obviously don't bother to read the
> online resumes,...
Or they do and found yours lacking.
Based on your apparent attitude, as expressed here, I think you'd be
a nightmare to employ.
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
From: CBFalconer
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <42E93868.4DDB294@yahoo.com>
Chris Sonnack wrote:
> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
>
... snip ...
>
>> How would anyone know to call you? My contact info has been
>> posted on the net many many times in my search for employment
>> and nobody has called me for many years. They obviously don't
>> bother to read the online resumes,...
>
> Or they do and found yours lacking.
>
> Based on your apparent attitude, as expressed here, I think
> you'd be a nightmare to employ.
If you have a lockable basement room, with suitable provisions for
sliding in food and drink and extracting produce and offal, it
might work out.
--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
CBFalconer wrote:
> Chris Sonnack wrote:
>> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
>>> They obviously don't bother to read the online resumes,...
>>
>> Or they do and found yours lacking.
>>
>> Based on your apparent attitude, as expressed here, I think
>> you'd be a nightmare to employ.
>
> If you have a lockable basement room, with suitable provisions for
> sliding in food and drink and extracting produce and offal, it
> might work out.
Whoever has seen "Office Space" knows it ultimately won't ;)
--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: Scott Ellsworth <·····@alodar.com>
> > Your attitude, from the outside, _appears_ to be one that will offend
> > many potential employeers.
>
> I have 22 years experience in writing computer software, including
> assembly or machine language for several different CPU types, including
> several mid-level and high-level programming languages, including
> utilities and applications in many different fields. I'm currently
> available for work and seeking employment or contract work. In your
> personal opinion, what part of that would an employer find offensive?
Let me re-emphasize that this is just my _personal_ opinion, and that I
was commenting on how it _appears from the outside_, not anything about
how you actually work.
That said, I found the cluster of comments around "I've been begging
people to look at my software I've already done, but they say they don't
have the time or interest" to be negative. No problem with that, of
course, on usenet, but negativity offends hiring managers. Since I tend
to be the team pessimist, this is a problem. I am never going to be a
rah-rah cheerleader, so I try to be more balanced than my wont.
I might have taken "Your comment is irrelevant because I don't ask for
money from anyone, not minimum wage, not any amount whatsoever. It makes
no sense to ask money from somebody who has never indicated any
willingness to pay me whatsoever" and "From a false premise like that,
anything you say next is worthless" to email. Then again, I might not.
Again, _personal_ opinion. Use it, or ignore it, as you like.
By the way, all of what follows only applies when you are doing job
networking, and trying to move towards an eventual job or contract.
Talking to my next door neighbor at the 4th barbeque has different rules.
> > Employers want to see eagerness to do the work,
>
> Before I respond to that remark, I need clarification: Are you
> referring to paid or unpaid work? Are you saying employers want to see
> people eager to do unpaid work or paid work?
Paid work.
Sure, they are giving you money for it, but my experience has been that
they want to see some amount of excitement. Glee, even. (Sound's
hokey, but the best ones want to see you enjoying yourself, because they
usually find the job fun. When the fun ends, the job usually does too,
IME.)
Unpaid work is rather different. Enthusiasm still matters, but often,
that enthusiasm is focussed on the organization's goals, not the code.
For something like ANT, it can be treated much like paid work, save that
the 'how much will it make' is not as important.
For something like, oh, the donation tracking software I worked on for a
local charity, they were far more interested in how much I liked the
charity and its work than in how the software would save them time.
> > combined with an awareness of how what you do will make them more
> > money,
>
> I'm sorry but I'm not privy to the internal financial affirs of various
> companies. It's the job of the hiring manager to observe what software
> I can produce and then decide whether such software would or would not
> result in profit for the company.
Right, but if you have a good idea how they make their money, then you
can adjust your pitch. For example, if a client of mine is working on
drug discovery focussed on lab work, I do not really push how much time
we can save their IT staff, or how we have written robot control
software.
Thus, part of your goal in pre-interview research is to figure out what
is going at the company, and what kinds of things they might be doing.
You also likely want a set of interview questions designed to test those
assumptions.
For example, one company contacted me about mysql and access, as they
were having trouble with their customer contact database. I came in
with a list of commercial products, and a list of 'is this why you want
a custom job' questions. Had they responded that these programs would
solve their problem, I would have talked myself out of a job, but I
would have slept better.
It turned out that they did not want commercial software because they
had people in house who wanted customizations on a daily basis. Ok - I
can help with that, and that was one of my theories going in.
> > or will let them accomplish their goals.
>
> Tell me what their goals are, and I might be able to say whether my
> softare wuold contribute toward accomplishing those goals. But I can't
> guess what the goals of some company might be, at least not in any way
> relevant to deciding whether my software would help that goal.
[...]
Very true. After a certain number of years, we all have done enough
that we have to pick and choose what to talk about during the interview
process.
That said, I can guess what their goals are. Before an interview, I
usually have read the last few annual reports, just to get a feel about
what the top level guys have been talking about. I can then at least
start with 'ok - your company seems to be really pushing the federal
grant angle. Do you have a lot of custom software handling that
paperflow', assuming I want to write grant software.
My point was that I come in with a guess about what they are doing, and
try to refine it at every contact. This way, even if I do not get the
job, I come away with a better model of what that company does for the
next time I talk with them.
> > You are implicitly asking them for money, even if you are not holding
> > out your hand the moment you walk in the door.
>
> There's a subtle but important difference between what you say and what
> I do. Consider the difference between the high-pressure car salesman
> who drags you to a "special" car and virtually insists you buy it,
> compared to a customer service representative at Macy's who is
> obviously there available to help you but who waits for you to ask a
> question about something or upon noticing you fretting around like
> you're frustrated trying to find something might ask if you would like
> some help finding something.
Thing is, there is a wide range, and not just in one dimension, between
those two examples.
A pushy used car salesman driving you to a 'special' car is rarely
trying to solve _your_ problems. He is trying to solve his. In the
case of employment, it is a bit different. I am selling myself, not
code I have already written. Part of what I bring to the party is the
code we have developed in house to solve certain problems, but really,
the thing being sold is problem elimination. I guess your problems, I
propose general solutions, and if I have guessed right, we discuss how
to turn the general into the specific, and what it will cost.
At the end of the day, my job is to help my clients get their work done.
If they could do all the work themselves, they probably would not be
calling a consultant. We do cause sticker shock, and we can be
terminated at any moment. Salaried employees can as well, but some
bosses feel guilty about that, which is not the case for someone you
hired for a few months of work.
When I have been in the salaried side of the house, I saw my job as
shipping working software. The reason for the difference? They had
committed to a longer time horizon, God willing. Contractors are less
likely than a salaried person to last an entire project, so contractors
are more likely to be hired to make a specific person's life easier.
So, think of it like a custom tailor. One who hits you up the moment
you walk in the door with '$50 minimum' is not going to deserve your
business or your time. It is, though, incumbent on him to tell you that
a bespoke suit runs about a grand (I think, never bought one personally)
early enough that if you were after a Men's Wearhouse price, you know.
> When I am contacting some company about employment, I'm merely saying
> that I'm available, presenting a summary of what I can do, and leaving
> it to them to take an interest and express that interest to me and ask
> for more info. I don't harass the employer like a car salesman trying
> to insist they should pay for what I offer.
Harass, no. I do, though, try to get across what kinds of problems I
can solve, what those problems usually cost, and what I cost by
comparison. Ideally, this comes up early in the process, because if I
am charging way more than they want to pay, why waste either of our time?
Let me be clear - I may not express it right away, but I go in to most
such networking situations thinking 'what can I do for this person', and
'what is that worth'. If I get 'nothing' and 'nothing' I still want to
know more about them, because people are interesting, but I am not
likely to be working for them.
> I'm not directly asking them for money, like **expecting** that they
> would be the next company to hire me, and getting angry if they don't
> say yes. I'm simply stating that I'm available if they happen to want
> to spend money to hire me. It's a hypothetical, I'm available if
> you want to pay for my services, rather than GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME.
> So do you understand why it pisses me off when you express it in a way
> that makes it seem like I'm demanding to be hired instead of merely
> offering my services contingent on suitable pay?
I suspect we have hit the core of our difference here. You feel that
you are not asking them for money, because asking for money means being
pushy and demanding, and getting pissed off if they say no. I feel that
every job interview is asking them for several hundred thousand a year,
once you count benefits, and thus it is implicitly asking the potential
employer for a lot of cash. Not much up front, but a bunch down the
road, so I have to let them know what they get out of the deal.
It is far from the first thing we talk about, because we have to figure
out what needs to be done before we can talk about what it will cost.
That said, once we have some idea of scope, they deserve to know what my
solution will run.
I do not get pissed off when a contract falls through, as long as
everyone acted in a reasonably professional manner. They do not owe me
a job, but since custom software does not have a price tag on it
explicitly, they have to ask me what I am going to charge. Better, in
my mind, if they have a pretty good idea early in the process.
Since we are not likely to agree on this, I suspect we should drop it.
>
> As I said several times, RSA Data Security was the only company where I
> really expected to be hired, because I had already on my own time
> developed software exactly like their main line of business, and I was
> quite unpleasantly surprised when they didn't hire me. With every other
> company, I think of it as a chance, maybe they'll hire me and maybe
> they won't, and I have no expectation either way.
>
> > Part of your task is to convince them that you are someone they want
> > to give money to, in return for what you offer them.
>
> I don't understand the difference between what you're asking me to do
> to potential employers and what the high-pressure car salesman, or the
> door-to-door salesman, does to the poor customer. I'm just not the kind
> of person to treat people with such disrespect. If you mean something
> else, you're not communicating it well.
Only you know what you can do for them, and only they know what they
need. You have to guess, based on insufficient information, what they
need, and what that is worth. The entire negotiation process is an
attempt to work that out.
> From a scientific or aware-consumer viewpoint, that is the policy that
> actions speak louder than words, that proof is in the pudding, that
> evidence weighs a lot more than what you say, the only way any
> potential employer could be really sure I can do the job would be if
> they gave me an "audition", some small exercise where I could prove my
> muster. I've offered to do auditions but no company has taken me up on
> my offer so-far. (If any potential employer is reading this and wants
> to audition me, connect to my login page:
> http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/LogForm.cgi
> log in as guest1 with password free, and send me a short message
> introducing yourself. Or send me e-mail to my Yahoo! Mail address,
> where your e-mail will be mixed in with tens of thousands of spam, then
> connect to my login page to let me know you sent me the e-mail so I'll
> be able to sift through ths spam haystack looking for your e-mail
> needle by searching specifically for your particular e-mail address.)
>
> > If someone calls
>
> How would anyone know to call you? My contact info has been posted on
> the net many many times in my search for employment and nobody has
> called me for many years. They obviously don't bother to read the
> online resumes, or they would have found me and called me already, so
> why would they call you?
A fair question, with a complicated answer. Online, I try make my posts
technically useful, in hopes that they will solve someone else's
problem, and make them want to track me down.
I do happen to have some space on my dance card, so I am calling people
I have worked for and with, and letting them know. One of them may have
something, or perhaps one may need something from me. Bread on the
waters.
I am also spinning up my involvement with some projects I want to get
better at. If I make a useful contribution to a project, I would hope
that work will result. If not, at least I have a new tool.
> > I would not go below $15 an hour, and something in the $30-$50 sounds
> > a lot closer to what I would expect for a reasonably experienced and
> > competent software guy.
>
> Well that's about the range I would expect, but given that I have never
> gotten any such offer, it seems silly to turn down any lesser offer if
> it appeared. I'd much rather earn $15/hr than remain unemployed due to
> holding out for $30 and refusing to take any less. The highest offer I
> ever actually got was $25/hr 1099, and I took it.
Sure - I have taken contracts all over the map when I needed to, where
the pay, or the work, was not my ideal. Part of effort of finding good
jobs is to let you not have to take the bad ones.
(NB - bad for me is not bad for you, and vice versa. I hate Perl, but
like Java and ObjC. I am starting to like Ruby. For our Perl master,
there are jobs that are wonderful which I would find hellish, and vice
versa.)
> > If you do not know what your skills are worth, find an open source or
> > a volunteer non profit, and do some work for them.
>
> I've already spent several years doing that sort of thing, and it never
> turned into any chance of money in that area, and I'm pretty much
> burned out giving my free labor and getting neither money nor any
> social benefit in return, just take my labor and throw shit back at me.
> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
> Sorry if you don't like my current attitude, but I tried your idea for
> quite a number of years and it didn't result in any money, ever, and
> I'm not willing to continue making the same mistake just because you
> beg me to and plead that it won't be so bad this time.
Where, in the above, did I beg and plead? You suggested that you had no
idea what your skills were worth, and I suggested that an open source
project might give you that information, by showing you how your skills
compare with others currently getting paid. If you have another path,
by all means use it.
> So anyway, you say I should demand $30-50 per hour, and the other guy
> says I should demand at least $80-100 per hour and not take anything
> less, because anything less than $80/hr shows I'm completely worthless.
> (Yes, I'm paying attention to the various advice I get in this thread.)
Fair enough.
Scott
--
Scott Ellsworth
·····@alodar.nospam.com
Java and database consulting for the life sciences
Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> Right, but if you have a good idea how they make their money, then you
> can adjust your pitch. For example, if a client of mine is working on
> drug discovery focussed on lab work, I do not really push how much time
> we can save their IT staff, or how we have written robot control
> software.
My goodness. That sounds like my advice (via /Parachute/) to research and
respect your interviewer's potential concerns.
However, I think Robert has successfully pissed off every head-hunter in
town. Recruiters can be a close-knit community, meaning "incestuous",
_especially_ in a post-apocalyptic region like The Bay Area.
If Robert's interactions with this newsgroup are similar to his interactions
with them...
> > So anyway, you say I should demand $30-50 per hour, and the other guy
> > says I should demand at least $80-100 per hour and not take anything
> > less, because anything less than $80/hr shows I'm completely worthless.
> > (Yes, I'm paying attention to the various advice I get in this thread.)
>
> Fair enough.
I have started charging per line-item in the feature request list. That
means if I estimate X to take 30 minutes, and it does, I win.
This fits the strategy of coaching the client to produce a steady stream of
small feature requests.
And it shows my confidence in my estimates.
--
Phlip
http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug13-010@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Phlip" <·········@yahoo.com>
> I think Robert has successfully pissed off every head-hunter in town.
Are you talking about after I patiently waited more than ten years for
even one of them to find me an interview, and finally after more than
ten years of their total incompetance, finally I start speaking out in
public and they don't like me telling the world how incompetant they
are? Frankly I don't care if I piss them off at this point.
Or are you saying that somehow I pissed them off way back in 1991 when
I first started the current sequence of asking them if they can find me
a job because I have just recently (1991.Sep.01) become unemployed
after being steadily employed for ten years? If you're making that
claim, please present evidence of something I said or did way back in
1991 to piss off all appx. hundred of them such that that's the reason
they haven't gotten me even one interview in all the time from 1991.Sep
until the more recent time when my patience was exhausted and I started
my public complaining about their incompetance.
> If Robert's interactions with this newsgroup are similar to his
> interactions with them...
My interactions with them during the first several years since I became
unemployed was totally different. I was totally polite and patient. I
never contacted them unless there was a job ad that I wanted to respond
to, except for some cases where I used the Yellow Pages to call them at
random to ask whether they knew of any openings in my area and might be
able to help me find a job. Never a complaint about them for quite a
number of years. I was the total nice guy who is ignored by everyone in
favor of the squeeky wheel that is irritating enough gets noticed.
Even now my interactions with them are non-complaining, merely sending
my tailored resume in response to their job ad, and waiting patiently
for them to respond, and occasionally when I have a new general resume
I FAX it to a whole bunch of them to alert them that I'm still looking
for employment and to get back onto their "hot list" of resumes at the
top of their attention spam, and only one responded in any way, to
complain that they're accepting resumes *only* via MicroSoft word
attachment to e-mail, which I have no way to send from my Unix shell
account, so it took several months before I could find a way to get a
resume to that agency, and then it just went into a black hole.
(Does anybody want the name of that MS-Word-only agency?)
> I have started charging per line-item in the feature request list.
> That means if I estimate X to take 30 minutes, and it does, I win.
I would really like to bill that way, but I've never found anyone
willing to contract or otherwise pay for my services on that basis.
By the way, how much money (US$ please) would you charge for a feature
that took you only a half hour to implement and debug and test and
integrate with the overall program and fully document as addendum to
the regular program documentation?
I especially like that idea during the initial stages of working with a
given client/employer, when I am not sure I'll ever get paid, and they
aren't sure I can really do the work, so we incrementally build trust
by my delivering and their paying for a little bit at a time.
But nobody has any money to pay for any custom software, only packaged
software from the big vendors. I can't even find somebody to let me
implement something for free as a demo of my ability to do the
particular kind of software work. For example, there's a guy with
offices near here who has written a desktop C++ application that he
would like to interface to CGI. I explained how I like to write CGI
applications, and it'd be easy for me to write a CGI front-end to his
C++ application if he just tells me which two or three use cases to
start with as my demo and then after I get a toy version of the
interface running he tells me the actual C++ function/method calls into
his program so I can convert my toy interface into a real interface
into his real program. But he hasn't been able to get any new buyers
for his program, CGI or otherwise, and he's spending all his time
looking for buyers, so he doesn't even have time to spend ten minutes
writing me an e-mail listing the use cases he'd like to see in my first
free demo, and as far as I know he hasn't even had time to try the
CGI/C++ demo I already have online as part of my how-to-HelloPlus
tutorial project, wherein my demo calls a routine to decode the
URL-encoded.form contents, then fetches the various fields by name to
demonstrate that it really does have them decoded individually. That
guy is the closest I've come to finding anyone interested in
contracting/hiring my services in the past several years.
> And it shows my confidence in my estimates.
Actually I interpret it oppositely to you: If I bill on the basis of
half-hour tasks, then it means I need at the end of a half hour to get
feedback whether my estimate was correct or not before I proceed to the
next half hour, that I don't trust my own estimates longer than a half
hour into the future. This is great for me just starting at contract
work like this, where if I make a horrible mistake in estimation, it
takes me five hours instead of the half hour I estimated, off by a full
order of magnitude, still it's only 4.5 hours of unpaid work for my
mistake, no big deal, less time than I spend responding to newsgroup
posts in the average day. It's not like if I contract for a job on the
basis it'll take me a half year and it actually takes me five years of
which I get paid only for the first half year, and I don't get paid one
penny until after the product is finally delivered 4.5 years after
promised, if the buyer hasn't found a way to back out of the contract
already by then.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> And it shows my confidence in my estimates.
>
> Actually I interpret it oppositely to you: If I bill on the basis of
> half-hour tasks, then it means I need at the end of a half hour to get
> feedback whether my estimate was correct or not before I proceed to the
> next half hour, that I don't trust my own estimates longer than a half
> hour into the future. This is great for me just starting at contract
> work like this, where if I make a horrible mistake in estimation, it
> takes me five hours instead of the half hour I estimated, off by a full
> order of magnitude, still it's only 4.5 hours of unpaid work for my
> mistake, no big deal, less time than I spend responding to newsgroup
> posts in the average day. It's not like if I contract for a job on the
> basis it'll take me a half year and it actually takes me five years of
> which I get paid only for the first half year, and I don't get paid one
> penny until after the product is finally delivered 4.5 years after
> promised, if the buyer hasn't found a way to back out of the contract
> already by then.
Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to take you up to the
bridge. Call that job satisfaction? 'Cause I don't...
--
Marvin
the Sirius Cybernetics Corp(r) Android
with Genuine People Personality(tm)
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <3m95h2F15cnjjU1@individual.net>
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: "Phlip" <·········@yahoo.com>
>> I think Robert has successfully pissed off every head-hunter in town.
>
> Are you talking about after I patiently waited more than ten years for
> even one of them to find me an interview, and finally after more than
Maybe you shouldn't have waited for others to come to you.
> ten years of their total incompetance, finally I start speaking out in
> public and they don't like me telling the world how incompetant they
> are? Frankly I don't care if I piss them off at this point.
But you should. Nobody cares if they suck or not. This is about you
selling yourself to an employer.
> Or are you saying that somehow I pissed them off way back in 1991 when
> I first started the current sequence of asking them if they can find me
> a job because I have just recently (1991.Sep.01) become unemployed
> after being steadily employed for ten years? If you're making that
> claim, please present evidence of something I said or did way back in
> 1991 to piss off all appx. hundred of them such that that's the reason
> they haven't gotten me even one interview in all the time from 1991.Sep
> until the more recent time when my patience was exhausted and I started
> my public complaining about their incompetance.
But why do *you* complain about *them*? If they can't get you a job,
it's *your* job to do so! Manna doesn't fall from the sky.
> My interactions with them during the first several years since I became
> unemployed was totally different. I was totally polite and patient. I
> never contacted them unless there was a job ad that I wanted to respond
> to, except for some cases where I used the Yellow Pages to call them at
> random to ask whether they knew of any openings in my area and might be
> able to help me find a job. Never a complaint about them for quite a
> number of years. I was the total nice guy who is ignored by everyone in
> favor of the squeeky wheel that is irritating enough gets noticed.
That tells me that you should have made more noise. Maybe you find it
irritating. Maybe you despise that kind of people. But nobody cares.
They got a job, and you didn't. It's about priorities.
> Even now my interactions with them are non-complaining, merely sending
> my tailored resume in response to their job ad, and waiting patiently
These are claims you make, but I'd like to question how well these
resumes are tailored, and how well they're presented. Since you don't
have a graphical browser, maybe your word processors aren't too modern,
either. (just assuming, maybe I'm wrong here)
> for them to respond, and occasionally when I have a new general resume
> I FAX it to a whole bunch of them to alert them that I'm still looking
> for employment and to get back onto their "hot list" of resumes at the
> top of their attention spam, and only one responded in any way, to
> complain that they're accepting resumes *only* via MicroSoft word
> attachment to e-mail, which I have no way to send from my Unix shell
> account, so it took several months before I could find a way to get a
> resume to that agency, and then it just went into a black hole.
> (Does anybody want the name of that MS-Word-only agency?)
Sure, .doc isn't cool, but if it's what everybody wants, you should get
used to it. It's your choice to stay out in the rain, but you're
complaining about that, so start playing by *their* rules.
It's a problem with several dependencies. If you need a PC with
MS-Word, get one *before* tackling the job application problem. Good
ones are on ebay for cheap.
You pay $20 every month for a shell account. What does it do? Some
file storage, a C compiler, ...? Great, I bet everybody in this ng and
every single CS student has all that on their home computer, running
Linux, BSD or whatever. And it even runs a graphical browser.
For word processing you can get OpenOffice for free, if they don't
accept resumes in TeX.
If you need to, live without web access for a year, save the $20 a
month, and go buy a decent machine then. It seems that sitting at your
shell account, writing news articles here doesn't buy you anything, so
save those $20.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Sure, .doc isn't cool, but if it's what everybody wants, you should
> get used to it. It's your choice to stay out in the rain, but you're
> complaining about that, so start playing by *their* rules.
I've already wrote about this. This is a spurious problem: just take
an ASCII file and rename it cv.doc and voil�! you've got a MS-Word file.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Litter box not here.
You must have moved it again.
I'll poop in the sink.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug15-014@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> you should have made more noise. Maybe you find it irritating.
> Maybe you despise that kind of people. But nobody cares. They got a
> job, and you didn't. It's about priorities.
Please give me advice: After I have already FAXed my resume to a given
employment agency, how long should I wait before I FAX them another
copy?
> I'd like to question how well these resumes are tailored, and how
> well they're presented.
OK, you be the judge. Here is a resume I sent in response to a job ad
on May 26:
Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
Voice: 408-749-0453
Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
EDUCATION:
Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
degree
ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
- Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
undergraduate mathematics competition
- Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
- Report on English-language programming for robot published
PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
- Java (on 3 platforms)
- C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
- Visual Basic
- Fortran (on 5 platforms)
- Lisp (on 5 platforms)
- Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
Platforms (programming environments) include: Macintosh, Unix+CGI, MS-Windows,
RedHat Linux
MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
- Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
- Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
display
- Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
- Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
interrupts from I/O devices
- Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
ADDITIONAL SPECIFIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS/ACTIVITIES/EXPERTISE/EXPERIENCE:
- Wrote software to use SAX parser in Java/J2EE to convert XML to SQL
for update to relational database.
- Wrote software to build&update tables in relational database using JDBC/SQL.
- Used ANT to maintain compiled versions of J2EE applications as source edited.
- Wrote white-box unit-testing at all levels of software modules from
single lines of code to full application use-cases.
- HTTP, HTML, CGI.
- Used JCreator to build Java projects.
Here's another customized resume I sent for a different job ad on Jun1.15:
Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
Voice: 408-749-0453
Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
EDUCATION:
Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
degree
ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
- Among top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam undergraduate
mathematics competition
- Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
- Report on English-language programming for robot published
- Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
- Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
XML parsing (SAX), JavaDoc
- JavaScript, including calls to Java packages
- C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
- Visual Basic
- Fortran (on 5 platforms)
- Lisp (on 5 platforms)
- Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
* Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI,
Macintosh (systems 6.0.3, 6.0.5, 6.0.7, 7.5.5), MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
- Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
- Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
display
- Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
- Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
interrupts from I/O devices
- Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
- HTML, SQL/databases (MicroSoft Access, CloudScape), WebServer applications
ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
- Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
- Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
- JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
- JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
- Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
- XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
Here's another tailored resume I sent to another job ad on the same day:
Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
Voice: 408-749-0453
Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
EDUCATION:
Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
degree
ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
- Among top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam undergraduate
mathematics competition
- Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
- Report on English-language programming for robot published
- Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
- Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
XML parsing (SAX), JavaDoc
- JavaScript, including calls to Java packages
- C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
- Visual Basic
- Fortran (on 5 platforms)
- Lisp (on 5 platforms)
- Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
* Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI,
Macintosh (systems 6.0.3, 6.0.5, 6.0.7, 7.5.5), MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
- Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
- Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
display
- Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
- Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
interrupts from I/O devices
- Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
- UML, API documentation of my own modules via JavaDoc
- proficient at rapid protyping&development&deployment via TDD
(Test-Driven Development based on unit-testing at all levels)
- developed major application which explored multiple data sources to
collect the best information, and consolidated it into database
ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
- Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
- Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
- JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
- JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
- Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
- XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
Here's another custom version I sent to yet another job ad the same day:
Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
Voice: 408-749-0453
Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
EDUCATION:
Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
degree
Computer-programming classes at De Anza college, Cupertino, CA
ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
- First place in University of Santa Clara High School Mathematics
contest for three years
- Undergraduate mathematics research project at University of Santa
Clara for five summers
- Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
undergraduate mathematics competition
- Abstract on differential algebra published in Notices of the AMS
- Passed California civil service exam for Programmer/Analyst I
- Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
- Report on English-language programming for robot published
- Passed Mensa exam, achieving top 1% on BOTH tests, whereas achieving
top 2% on EITHER test is sufficient to qualify for Mensa
- Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
- Passed federal civil service exam for Writing & Public Info
PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
- Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
XML parsing (SAX), GUI (AWT & swing), JavaDoc
- JavaScript, including calls to methods in Java classes
- C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
- Visual Basic
- Fortran (on 5 platforms)
- Lisp (on 5 platforms)
- Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
* Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI, Macintosh,
MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
- Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
- Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
display
- Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
- Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
interrupts from I/O devices
- Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
- Client/server applications (with both developed together by same person,
and with client written to adapt to an existing server previously
developed by somebody else and publicly available)
- Well-documented code, and separate user/API documentation
ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
- Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
- Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
- JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
- JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
- Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
- XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
Finally here's a customized version I sent for yet another job on Jul.06:
Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
Voice: 408-749-0453
Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
EMPLOYMENT OBJECTIVE: Developing Web-accessible serverside appliations,
for RDBS (Relational DataBase System) access and other business utilities
EDUCATION:
Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bach. of Science degree
Computer-programming classes at De Anza college, Cupertino, CA
ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
- Top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam
undergraduate mathematics competition
- Passed Mensa exam, achieving top 1% on BOTH tests, whereas achieving
top 2% on EITHER test is sufficient to qualify for Mensa
- Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
- Passed federal civil service exam for Writing & Public Info
PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
- Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
XML parsing (SAX), GUI (AWT & swing), JavaDoc, CGI
- JavaScript, including calls to methods in Java classes
- C (on 4 platforms, includig CGI) C++ (on 2 platforms, includig CGI)
- Visual Basic
- Fortran (on 5 platforms)
- Lisp (on 5 platforms, includig CGI)
- Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
- Shell scripts (on Unix/Linux, including CGI interfaces)
* Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI, Macintosh,
MicrosoftWindows+MicrosoftACCESS, RedHatLinux+CloudScape
MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
- Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
- Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
display
- Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
- Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
interrupts from I/O devices
- Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
- Data compression
- Generating custom large prime numbers for cryptographic use
- Manipulating vectors to discover closest linear relationships
- Researching & organizing & publishing tutorial WebPages
- Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) research to identify organic molecules
ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
- Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
- Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
- JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
- JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
- Multi-CGI-language tutorials: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
- XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
Notice how they're all based on that same starting resume but I removed
different items in each and put in special stuff in each to better fit
the job from among the experience I have but which is relevant to only
a few jobs?
> .doc isn't cool, but if it's what everybody wants, you should get
> used to it.
I don't have any money to pay for MicroSoft Word for Macintosh, so
that's not an option for me here.
> For word processing you can get OpenOffice for free
I have only 17 megabytes of unused space on my Macintosh hard disk.
How much space does the Macintosh version of OpenOffice need?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>> you should have made more noise. Maybe you find it irritating.
>> Maybe you despise that kind of people. But nobody cares. They got a
>> job, and you didn't. It's about priorities.
>
> Please give me advice: After I have already FAXed my resume to a given
> employment agency, how long should I wait before I FAX them another
> copy?
(Ooouy can't believe I'm _still_ taking the bait.) I'm a headhunter, and I
want to review technical competence.
People more technically competent than the average Pacific Treefrog know how
to use e-mail and HTML these days. If I seek reasons to reject, FAX abuse
(hence tree-killing) is fairly high on the list.
BTW I liked the first bit of the first resume I snipped. Then I dislike a
lack of employment history (that is _so_ conspicuous by its absense), and I
dislike your need to snow Ulrich by pasting in many more.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <3mdn09F15vl83U1@individual.net>
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Please give me advice: After I have already FAXed my resume to a given
> employment agency, how long should I wait before I FAX them another
> copy?
Well, maybe they don't have an opening then...
>> I'd like to question how well these resumes are tailored, and how
>> well they're presented.
>
> OK, you be the judge. Here is a resume I sent in response to a job ad
> on May 26:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
>
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> undergraduate mathematics competition
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms)
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
>
> Platforms (programming environments) include: Macintosh, Unix+CGI, MS-Windows,
> RedHat Linux
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
So far it doesn't sound too bad to me.
> ADDITIONAL SPECIFIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS/ACTIVITIES/EXPERTISE/EXPERIENCE:
> - Wrote software to use SAX parser in Java/J2EE to convert XML to SQL
> for update to relational database.
> - Wrote software to build&update tables in relational database using JDBC/SQL.
> - Used ANT to maintain compiled versions of J2EE applications as source edited.
> - Wrote white-box unit-testing at all levels of software modules from
> single lines of code to full application use-cases.
> - HTTP, HTML, CGI.
> - Used JCreator to build Java projects.
These above are IMHO too detailed. People simply *assume* that you
could do that.
Maybe a concrete bigger project wouldn't hurt, or an indication in what
way your presence at a project helped it.
[...]
> OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
> - HTML, SQL/databases (MicroSoft Access, CloudScape), WebServer applications
>
> ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
> - Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
> - Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
> - JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
> - JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
> - Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
> - XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
Leave out these small demos. Well, that is, I don't know what jobs you
were applying to, but I assume that small demos are a given. If you
need to, mention that you can code Javascript or work with XML, but I
don't think anybody needs to know specifics. If they need to, they'll
probably ask you.
> Notice how they're all based on that same starting resume but I removed
> different items in each and put in special stuff in each to better fit
> the job from among the experience I have but which is relevant to only
> a few jobs?
Yep, but it's hard for me to know what's appropriate for what job
application. (esp. since I'm still a student...)
It wouldn't hurt to indicate why you're THE MAN for the job. (well, I
assume you actually did write an introductory letter/email to accompany
those resumes)
>> .doc isn't cool, but if it's what everybody wants, you should get
>> used to it.
>
> I don't have any money to pay for MicroSoft Word for Macintosh, so
> that's not an option for me here.
Yep. Maybe running TeX on you Unix account and just sending them a PDF
works. I think most modern employers wouldn't mind that format, though
I've also heard some insist on doc.
ASCII text in an email looks too cheap, IMHO.
>> For word processing you can get OpenOffice for free
>
> I have only 17 megabytes of unused space on my Macintosh hard disk.
> How much space does the Macintosh version of OpenOffice need?
AFAIK it only runs on Mac OS X, and needs a lot of space. Maybe you can
find some room on that Redhat machine? Or maybe someone at the library
or some university/school lets you use Office.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Hi Robert,
I noticed your resumes don't include an indication of expertise
in the various categories you provide. I went over to your web
resume last night and tried to check out your languages and C++.
There was no info or C++ category. ...I know you are in the process
of a rewrite.
The resumes you posted last night list languages, OSes, and so
on, but no indication of experience. When looking for someone's
resume I'll start with a few simple buzzwords like language but
I'd really like to see an indication of the level you are at in
them. That might help to some degree. Obviously you also want
to list references to items you would like to use. I've dropped
a couple of terms from my resume because they were unrelated on
my resume, but commonly related terms when headhunters looked at
it. I kept getting inquiries for job with languages on an
operating system that I did not prefer. Yes a different resume
might use those terms again, but it is unlikely that even big
blue would consider them useful again.
The relatively simple text resumes posted last night could
be improved a bit and at least give you a chance at getting
an inquiry. Sending any of your large resume references is
both overkill and an excuse for a prospective employer to never
have the need to talk to you.
The resume is there to introduce yourself, your talents,
and get their interest to actually start a dialog. It can
be all encompassing, but rarely does that serve both your
purpose and theirs.
I've left the resumes intact below.
Good luck,
David
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:35:05 UTC, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > you should have made more noise. Maybe you find it irritating.
> > Maybe you despise that kind of people. But nobody cares. They got a
> > job, and you didn't. It's about priorities.
>
> Please give me advice: After I have already FAXed my resume to a given
> employment agency, how long should I wait before I FAX them another
> copy?
>
> > I'd like to question how well these resumes are tailored, and how
> > well they're presented.
>
> OK, you be the judge. Here is a resume I sent in response to a job ad
> on May 26:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
>
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> undergraduate mathematics competition
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms)
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
>
> Platforms (programming environments) include: Macintosh, Unix+CGI, MS-Windows,
> RedHat Linux
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
>
> ADDITIONAL SPECIFIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS/ACTIVITIES/EXPERTISE/EXPERIENCE:
> - Wrote software to use SAX parser in Java/J2EE to convert XML to SQL
> for update to relational database.
> - Wrote software to build&update tables in relational database using JDBC/SQL.
> - Used ANT to maintain compiled versions of J2EE applications as source edited.
> - Wrote white-box unit-testing at all levels of software modules from
> single lines of code to full application use-cases.
> - HTTP, HTML, CGI.
> - Used JCreator to build Java projects.
>
> Here's another customized resume I sent for a different job ad on Jun1.15:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
>
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Among top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam undergraduate
> mathematics competition
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
> XML parsing (SAX), JavaDoc
> - JavaScript, including calls to Java packages
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
> * Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI,
> Macintosh (systems 6.0.3, 6.0.5, 6.0.7, 7.5.5), MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
>
> OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
> - HTML, SQL/databases (MicroSoft Access, CloudScape), WebServer applications
>
> ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
> - Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
> - Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
> - JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
> - JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
> - Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
> - XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
>
> Here's another tailored resume I sent to another job ad on the same day:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
>
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Among top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam undergraduate
> mathematics competition
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
> XML parsing (SAX), JavaDoc
> - JavaScript, including calls to Java packages
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
> * Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI,
> Macintosh (systems 6.0.3, 6.0.5, 6.0.7, 7.5.5), MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
>
> OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
> - UML, API documentation of my own modules via JavaDoc
> - proficient at rapid protyping&development&deployment via TDD
> (Test-Driven Development based on unit-testing at all levels)
> - developed major application which explored multiple data sources to
> collect the best information, and consolidated it into database
>
> ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
> - Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
> - Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
> - JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
> - JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
> - Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
> - XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
>
> Here's another custom version I sent to yet another job ad the same day:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
> Computer-programming classes at De Anza college, Cupertino, CA
>
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - First place in University of Santa Clara High School Mathematics
> contest for three years
> - Undergraduate mathematics research project at University of Santa
> Clara for five summers
> - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> undergraduate mathematics competition
> - Abstract on differential algebra published in Notices of the AMS
> - Passed California civil service exam for Programmer/Analyst I
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> - Passed Mensa exam, achieving top 1% on BOTH tests, whereas achieving
> top 2% on EITHER test is sufficient to qualify for Mensa
> - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
> - Passed federal civil service exam for Writing & Public Info
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
> XML parsing (SAX), GUI (AWT & swing), JavaDoc
> - JavaScript, including calls to methods in Java classes
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
> * Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI, Macintosh,
> MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
>
> OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
> - Client/server applications (with both developed together by same person,
> and with client written to adapt to an existing server previously
> developed by somebody else and publicly available)
> - Well-documented code, and separate user/API documentation
>
> ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
> - Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
> - Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
> - JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
> - JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
> - Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
> - XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
>
> Finally here's a customized version I sent for yet another job on Jul.06:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
>
> EMPLOYMENT OBJECTIVE: Developing Web-accessible serverside appliations,
> for RDBS (Relational DataBase System) access and other business utilities
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bach. of Science degree
> Computer-programming classes at De Anza college, Cupertino, CA
>
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam
> undergraduate mathematics competition
> - Passed Mensa exam, achieving top 1% on BOTH tests, whereas achieving
> top 2% on EITHER test is sufficient to qualify for Mensa
> - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
> - Passed federal civil service exam for Writing & Public Info
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
> XML parsing (SAX), GUI (AWT & swing), JavaDoc, CGI
> - JavaScript, including calls to methods in Java classes
> - C (on 4 platforms, includig CGI) C++ (on 2 platforms, includig CGI)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms, includig CGI)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
> - Shell scripts (on Unix/Linux, including CGI interfaces)
> * Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI, Macintosh,
> MicrosoftWindows+MicrosoftACCESS, RedHatLinux+CloudScape
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
> - Data compression
> - Generating custom large prime numbers for cryptographic use
> - Manipulating vectors to discover closest linear relationships
> - Researching & organizing & publishing tutorial WebPages
> - Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) research to identify organic molecules
>
> ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
> - Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
> - Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
> - JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
> - JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
> - Multi-CGI-language tutorials: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
> - XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
>
> Notice how they're all based on that same starting resume but I removed
> different items in each and put in special stuff in each to better fit
> the job from among the experience I have but which is relevant to only
> a few jobs?
>
> > .doc isn't cool, but if it's what everybody wants, you should get
> > used to it.
>
> I don't have any money to pay for MicroSoft Word for Macintosh, so
> that's not an option for me here.
>
> > For word processing you can get OpenOffice for free
>
> I have only 17 megabytes of unused space on my Macintosh hard disk.
> How much space does the Macintosh version of OpenOffice need?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Categories? resume references? (was: How much should I charge f...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug24-011@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "David" <··············@United.Com>
> I noticed your resumes don't include an indication of expertise in
> the various categories you provide.
Which kinds of categories? Various programming languages? Various
platforms? Various application areas?
What indication would you like in each category? Years experience?
Specific major software I've written?
> I went over to your web resume last night and tried to check out your
> languages and C++. There was no info or C++ category.
I'm not sure what you mean by the "info" category.
I list C++ on my very latest (2005.June) resume because I took a
beginning C++ class this past Winter. Naturally it wouldn't be listed
on any resume prior to this year, including the most recently uploaded
resume which is the 2003 rearrangement of the 1998 resume and the 2004
MicroSoft Word formattings of that rearrangement.
The only version of the 2005.June resume, other than customized
versions I posted the other day, is the one I'm in the middle of
editing right now. There's no backup for it. Do you want to see it
mid-edit?
> When looking for someone's resume I'll start with a few simple
> buzzwords like language but I'd really like to see an indication of
> the level you are at in them.
You're conflating two concepts here: How much general experience and
expertise I have at programming in general, and what I've done in each
of the many particular langauges I've used. In the case of Java, I have
many years of experience in Lisp that can be converted rather easily to
Java ability, but only a little work I've done specifically in Java. So
would refuse to hire me for Java programming, even though I have all
those years of experience in a pre-Java langauge almost directly
applicable to Java, and I find Java almost natural and easy to program
in that way, just because that pre-Java language wasn't exactly Java?
> Obviously you also want to list references to items you would like to
> use.
Your English is escaping me there. Could you please re-phrase it so I
might understand it?
> Sending any of your large resume references is both overkill and an
> excuse for a prospective employer to never have the need to talk to
> you.
I'm in a dilemma. If I don't include all the buzzwords the junion staff
member is looking for when screening resumes, nobody who knows the
slightest thing about software will ever get a chance to see my resume.
But the list of buzzwords (posted in alphabetical order earlier this
evening) is very long, and I don't know how to avoid it seeming like
overkill without taking a chance the very word the junior staff member
absolutely needs to see might be missing. How can I guess which
keywords will be needed and which won't, so that I can include only the
former?
Also I don't know what you mean by "resume references".
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:28:55 -0700, Robert Maas, see ..
Robert. Stop whining - seek counselling. Your technical
problems are minor compared to your personality problems.
It is about time you p**sed your personal problems off
this slew of groups to which you are selfishly cross-posting.
[ Follow-ups to this post set to c.l.j.programmer only ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"What was it you wanted? Tell me again, I forgot."
Bob Dylan 'What Was It You Wanted'
Hello Robert,
Sorry for the delay. I've been away from home for a few days.
On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:28:55 UTC, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: "David" <··············@United.Com>
> > I noticed your resumes don't include an indication of expertise in
> > the various categories you provide.
>
> Which kinds of categories? Various programming languages? Various
> platforms? Various application areas?
A general list of languages, platforms, and so on doesn't give
me much of an idea about what you're capable of, or if you would
match my employment needs, when other parts of your resume or CV
do not indicate that information.
I understand you've been rewriting again and my view of your
resume is what was posted a week ago, I don't have time to find
it again and see what might have changed. I'll address my
previous comments where I can recall about them.
My first interest was in C++ and was related to work. You've
since indicated you had a course in C++ and that is why it was
listed. Since my immediate need is for people who would be up
to speed on my design and productive quickly, that doesn't
sound realistic even when the C++ skills I think that are needed
are fairly minimal. I also know of others that need various
Java or PDA applications written. This is new to me, so I'm not
entirely ready to help out after my normal day ends. Similarly,
just listing operating systems or development environments doesn't
give me much to go on.
Many years ago during the first five to ten years of my experience
I did list the 40 languages I knew and was productive in (not just
could read) and so on. That really wasn't helpful to the people I
submitted my resume even when I put in experience levels. I also
had a terrible time with the automated systems and headhunters of
the day looking for unrelated keywords that meant something to them.
In my case AS/400, RPG, COBOL, and similar experience was forcing
the people who really needed to fill boring $100K business positions
to contact me. Nowhere on my resume did it say these technologoies
were used together. Yes, I knew the AS/400 very well... but it was
all internals knowledge useful only to IBM. Adding a few well
chosen "Objectives" and dropping the experience that I could live
without mentioning helped my add room for other more useful
information.
It is good to have specialized resumes, but don't show them all
to a prospective employer. They just get confused. Have a general
one that whets there appetite to learn more aobut you and contact
you. Use more specified versions that are customized for a
particular position when you are ready to contact them. For
instance, just sending me a resume with your C++ or Java work
isn't helpful until you can address why it is helpful to my core
product development needs. That may take a little research to
find.
> What indication would you like in each category? Years experience?
> Specific major software I've written?
Given what I've read from you over the years and what I've had to
review from prospective candidates, I prefer people that give an
accurate objective statement, some indication of familiar technologies
and an accurate indication of expertise, but mostly this information
comes in the form of desciptions about past experience. It helps
me get to know what you've done to help others and what you might
to for me. I also do a phone interview with those that seem worth
learning more about. It is a huge turn off for me if the person
indicated some level of expertise in a couple subjects and can't
answer simple questions or say anything more than the resume already
did. At every level you want to whet their appetite for utilizing
your skills and not dissapoint them.
A good description is quite enough. What your responsibility was,
perhaps the major technologies, and what you accomplished for the
employer. I know you don't feel employed. Tell people what you
did for others.
As for any of your handicaps, they can be pluses if you sell them
properly. They need not be mentioned. Some people call this
arrogance but many people can be honest about their abilities and
find much more work. For instance, you've mentioned remote work
and about 20 hours per week maximum as part of the things you want
in a job. Okay then, find employers able to use that. Part of that
might be smaller projects that can't justify full time help. If you
want to work remotely, don't worry about the skills the employer
needs and instead listen to what they need and find a way to help
them if you are a reasonable match. Grow repeat customers. This
cannot be acoomplished with mass mailings, specialized resumes, and
classic big-company-methods. Learn to sell yourself. If you want,
you might explore teaming up with a good salesman that can help you
find the work. That keep each of you busy doing what you might do
best.
> > I went over to your web resume last night and tried to check out your
> > languages and C++. There was no info or C++ category.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by the "info" category.
You listed C++ exactly once on the multipage resume you published
a web link to. I was unable to find any further information about
what you knew or had used the language for. I did find other
language categories though. It was pretty much trial and error
finding what your recent activities and accomplishments were.
> I list C++ on my very latest (2005.June) resume because I took a
> beginning C++ class this past Winter. Naturally it wouldn't be listed
> on any resume prior to this year, including the most recently uploaded
> resume which is the 2003 rearrangement of the 1998 resume and the 2004
> MicroSoft Word formattings of that rearrangement.
I'd suggest listing C++ only if you could be useful to an employer
in that language. You could probably sight read anything and be
fairly useful.
A recent applicant claimed to be a C++ expert and could only list
six years experience using computers. Perhaps his definition of
expert and mine differ. I've used C++ since about 1989 and have
seen many compilers, tools, and language definitions. I tend to
rate myself mid-to-high but not an expert. Anyway the applicant
couldn't complete "strcpy" given the function definition and
asking him not to use any other functions. There wasn't a need
to ask any more detail about his experience. Sadly he couldn't
tell me much about his career so even as a junior developer he
wouldn't have been worth pursuing. I don't mind growing team
members. I just hate wading through the muck when a great leader
is what I'm after.
> The only version of the 2005.June resume, other than customized
> versions I posted the other day, is the one I'm in the middle of
> editing right now. There's no backup for it. Do you want to see it
> mid-edit?
I'll take a look at some point.
> > When looking for someone's resume I'll start with a few simple
> > buzzwords like language but I'd really like to see an indication of
> > the level you are at in them.
>
> You're conflating two concepts here: How much general experience and
> expertise I have at programming in general, and what I've done in each
> of the many particular langauges I've used. In the case of Java, I have
> many years of experience in Lisp that can be converted rather easily to
> Java ability, but only a little work I've done specifically in Java. So
> would refuse to hire me for Java programming, even though I have all
> those years of experience in a pre-Java langauge almost directly
> applicable to Java, and I find Java almost natural and easy to program
> in that way, just because that pre-Java language wasn't exactly Java?
Mentioning the right buzzwords just lets the reader know a bit about
the tools used. So tell the employer what you did for someone else.
If you can work in that you didn't know Java but picked it up to complete
a project that shows effort on your part.
> > Obviously you also want to list references to items you would like to
> > use.
>
> Your English is escaping me there. Could you please re-phrase it so I
> might understand it?
You mention many languages, operating systems, and abilities. An
employer doesn't care that you know all that -- at least not yet. It
would be very helpful if you told the employer what it is you wanted
to do for them. If you know so many languages, perhaps the language
isn't important and you can focus on what you want to do. I've read
that you have opinions on user interfaces, design, and development.
If you've read what an employer is looking for, write a good objective
statement to let them know how you can help them. Then complete the
resume for them with supporting information -- just not too much.
You want them to contact you, not make a decision on what they've
read thus far.
> > Sending any of your large resume references is both overkill and an
> > excuse for a prospective employer to never have the need to talk to
> > you.
>
> I'm in a dilemma. If I don't include all the buzzwords the junion staff
> member is looking for when screening resumes, nobody who knows the
> slightest thing about software will ever get a chance to see my resume.
> But the list of buzzwords (posted in alphabetical order earlier this
> evening) is very long, and I don't know how to avoid it seeming like
> overkill without taking a chance the very word the junior staff member
> absolutely needs to see might be missing. How can I guess which
> keywords will be needed and which won't, so that I can include only the
> former?
Just as an employer doesn't care about not-hiring every best candidate,
you shouldn't be concerned about getting past every screening step that
all of the potential employers have to use to address the influx of far
too many resumes.
If you must list a bunch of languages/OSes/etc I'd prefer the list
to be ordered in your preference for using them or experience level.
Somewhere else you mentioned the various spellings, such as FORTRAN
vs. Fortran, and what you felt was correct. There is no such thing.
Each employer has their preference and which you choose may make a
difference.
As I stated earlier, I think that you would find much better
employement opportunities by determining what you want to do and
address specific employers one-by-one. That doesn't mean that you
won't also approach totally different employers needs with someone
else. Keeping your resume focused also helps keep your image
focused. When you present too much information it is then up
to the screener to figure out why they should keep looking at
your resume and contact you. They probably aren't looking for
a generalist yet, so don't try to be one. Just try to address the
needs you think they have.
Cold calling or appying to jobs that don't exist can work in
your favor too. Say that you want a part-time job in Java/web and
are willing to do as much of the project as the employer will let
you. Sending that to prospective clients that don't likely have
development departments can open up opportunities just for you.
This can even be done local to you and when personal contact is
required, you ask them to come to you. Tailor your career to
what you want to do and offer them.
David
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Categories? resume references? (was: How much should I charge f...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep04-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "David" <··············@United.Com>
> It is good to have specialized resumes, but don't show them all to a
> prospective employer. They just get confused.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
When I apply for a job, I send one resume, either a specialized resume
if one is appropriate, or my general resume customized for the
particular job.
When people offer to help me write a better resume, I show them the
work I've already done so they have a starting point for suggesting
improvements. If a prospective employer happens to witness this thread,
there's nothing I can do to stop that person from seeing everything
that anyone else in the thread can see.
When I set up a Web site that explains my entire attempt to find
employment, I have different sections for people offering me help with
the general process and for people searching for some particular
specialized resume I might have. Again I can't prevent some prospective
employer from browsing inappropriate parts of my Web site.
> Have a general one that whets there [sic] appetite to learn more
> aobut [sic] you and contact you.
Both my pre-school children knew the difference between "their" and
"there". What's your excuse for not knowing that??
How do I get any prospective employer to actually see my resume,
when there are several thousand resumes submitted for each job ad?
> I prefer people that give an accurate objective statement
Other advice was that objective statements are of negative value,
unless they are almost exactly a match for the particular job offered.
Obviously that's not possible in a general resume posted for many
potential employers to browse.
> some indication of familiar technologies and an accurate indication
> of expertise, but mostly this information comes in the form of
> desciptions about past experience.
There's no room for descriptions on a one-page resume, so what are you
trying to recommend in regard to my resume?? Somebody else suggested
that an online resume should have links from each item in the resume to
a more complete explanation elsewhere on the Web, and I suggested in
response that I make a HTML resume with links, and then use lynx's
print command to create a plain text rendering which I could send as my
print/FAX resume. Is that what you're suggesting, or something else I
can't guess?
> It helps me get to know what you've done to help others and what you
> might to [sic] for me.
My helping others includes a lot of areas not included on my
programming resume, such as my years of helping people on
news.newusers.questions, tutoring, peer counseling including saving a
few lives, ... I find it difficult to believe you really want to know
about such things when considering me specifically for a computer
programming job, and even more difficult to consider including such
items on my already-crowded computer-programming resume.
> I also do a phone interview with those that seem worth learning more
> about. It is a huge turn off for me if the person indicated some
> level of expertise in a couple subjects and can't answer simple
> questions or say anything more than the resume already did.
How would you feel if you asked me for more information about something
I'd done and I spent the next ten minutes telling you about it?
> A good description is quite enough. What your responsibility was,
> perhaps the major technologies, and what you accomplished for the
> employer.
That would take a whole page for each job, far too much to include in a
one-page resume. Where should I put that info?
> You listed C++ exactly once on the multipage resume you published
> a web link to.
Please cite the URL so I know which resume you're talking about.
> A resume is only suppose tease you into cantacting me for more info.
Did you in fact try to contact me, by e-mail or telephone, or even
by my Web application for sending me instant short-messages/alerts?
> It was pretty much trial and error finding what your recent
> activities and accomplishments were.
I don't understand your difficulty. I have a chronology of many of my
accomplishments of the past few years. Were you looking at it or not?
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/SeekJobAccom.html
If that's what you were browsing, you know what I was accomplishing
during each particular time period, often during a single month. So
what do you mean trial and error? You select the time period you are
interested in, click on that link, and there you are.
> I'd suggest listing C++ only if you could be useful to an employer
> in that language.
I believe I could be useful for some C++ tasks, so if I leave it out
I'm stupidly cutting myself off from jobs I can do.
> A recent applicant claimed to be a C++ expert and could only list
> six years experience using computers.
If all six years he was not just using computers, and not even just
programming computers, but programming computers using C++, then it's
quite possible he is an expert at using C++ for programming.
> Anyway the applicant couldn't complete "strcpy" given the function
> definition and asking him not to use any other functions.
Let's see, you have two pointers, one of them to a block of data that
consists of non-null characters terminated by one null character, and
the other pointer into writable memory of sufficient size to hold a
copy of the original block of data. What if the two blocks overlap? Do
you assume this doesn't occur? Anyway, strcpy is not a C++ function,
it's a C function, so to implement it (assuming no overlapping data
areas) I'd just write a loop that incremented the two pointers in
parallel, copying one byte at a time, and checking for null byte after
each copy. (The null byte needs to be copied too.) So any beginner C
programmer could easily write that. But a C++ programmer might be more
comfortable with object oriented programming and might be dumbfounded
by such an elementary question. (Or as you suspect, he might have lied
about C++ expertise, and in fact might have had not a slightest bit of
either C or C++ programming experience, not even elementary classwork.)
Here's a more interesting, and C++ specific, riddle, which I managed to
solve after both my current-at-the-time C++ instructor and my previous
C instructor were both stumped by it (and I was stumped until I finally
read the key information later in the textbook that gave me the clue I
needed to solve the riddle and explain it to my instructors): How is it
that cin can be chained, yet cin can be used as a boolean to test for
EOF? Is the value of cin boolean, true or false depending on EOF or
not, or iostream, *always* returns itself, never returns a false
value?? The answer to the riddle is one of the reasons C++ is an
inscrutably more perverse language than just about any other language,
making it impossible to understand even one line of code sucn as a
simple C-syntax IF statement without knowing the entire rest of the
program simultaneously. Do you want me to tell you the answer now, or
do you want to try guessing first? To avoid one person telling the
answer and the other claiming to already know it when in fact he
didn't, I suggest we use an incremental-info-exchange protocol. Are you
familiar with the "tell me something I don't already know" problem with
information barter, and the incremental-info-exchange solution?
> If you can work in that you didn't know Java but picked it up to
> complete a project that shows effort on your part.
In the case of Java, I actually took three classes, beginning java,
advanced java, and distributed java. But in the cases of Perl, PHP,
HTML, CGI, awk, and sh I learned enough on my own to complete a
project, and many years previously I learned a large number of other
programming languages on my own in order to do work of my own desire.
Prior to my recent classes in VB, Java and C++, the only time anybody
gave me any help learning a programming language is when Hans Moravec
explained the read-eval-print (of Lisp) to me. All my learning of
Fortran, SAIL (Algol), the rest of Lisp, MainSail, MacSyma, Macintosh
toolbox/OS traps, Forth, and a large number of machine/assembly
languages, was me learning directly from a manual and practicing on my
own. C is the primary crossover language, part self-teach and part
class, where I taught myself the barebones, using a very crude compiler
on my Mac for one project, then using a more complete compiler on Unix
to write a major application, but never needing to learn about structs
in all that work, finally using structs for the first time when I took
a class only because it was required before taking C++ or Java.
> It would be very helpful if you told the employer what it is you
> wanted to do for them.
In a general resume written for everyone to browse, there are an
unlimited number of things I might want to do for various employers.
Your advice would seem to be useful only after I already have a general
resume perfected and I'm ready to use it as a base for preparing custom
resumes for each new job that is advertised.
> If you know so many languages, perhaps the language isn't important
> and you can focus on what you want to do.
It's very unlikely that what I really want to do, such as work with
others to design an industry standard spec for interval arithmetic,
would be of any interest to most employers.
> I think that you would find much better employement opportunities by
> determining what you want to do and address specific employers
> one-by-one.
I don't know any way to find even one employer that is interested in
what I want to do. I already tried posting introductions to some of my
ideas in comp.programming, but not a single employer responded by
offering me a job or even just talking with me about what I had
proposed. That was my only guess how to propose my ideas, and it
fizzled, and I can't think of any other approach that would be likely
to ferret out such an employer interested in my ideas for new projects.
> Cold calling or appying [sic] to jobs that don't exist can work in
> your favor too.
I'm really uncomfortable cold-calling a receptionist at a big company
trying to talk my way into a conversation with somebody who actually
knows anything about programming but who is very busy and can't take
time off work to talk with every bozo who calls. I hate spam, and I
hate telemarketing even worse. Ever heard of the Golden Rule??
Hello Robert,
I've offered you advice from my perspective.
> How do I get any prospective employer to actually see my resume,
> when there are several thousand resumes submitted for each job ad?
What makes you think that your resume does not reach the
appropriate party or invoke the appropriate response?
When you receive inquiries from potential employers how well do
you handle them?
> How would you feel if you asked me for more information about something
> I'd done and I spent the next ten minutes telling you about it?
That would depend largely on how it was presented. If we were
interacting well and I was interested, it could be a great insight.
I would hope that we could move on to other subjects when it was
appropriate. A one sided conversation lasting ten minutes would be
a bit excessive.
> > A good description is quite enough. What your responsibility was,
> > perhaps the major technologies, and what you accomplished for the
> > employer.
>
> That would take a whole page for each job, far too much to include in a
> one-page resume. Where should I put that info?
Surely you can keep your descriptions at an appropriate length for
the size resume that you want to produce. There is nothing sacred about
producing a one-page resume. Make it larger if that is what fits your
relevant experience.
As for your question, leave that information out!
The purpose of a resume is to entice the reader into contacting you
for further information or perhaps discussing a particular job
opportunity. You need the right balance of information to get by
someone that screens resumes for HR and just enough information for
the appropriate hiring manager to decide if you warrant contacting.
If you applied for a particular position it will likely get to the
hiring manager without a screener. Persons that screen resumes have
a different role, that being to take general submissions and decide
if they can meet the needs of specific groups.
> > You listed C++ exactly once on the multipage resume you published
> > a web link to.
>
> Please cite the URL so I know which resume you're talking about.
You have changed the subject line far too many times for me to
find the one post where we started this particular discussion. Perhaps
the subject is moot now.
> > A resume is only supposed to tease you into contacting me for more info.
>
> Did you in fact try to contact me, by e-mail or telephone, or even
> by my Web application for sending me instant short-messages/alerts?
Please don't take this the wrong way. We have been talking already.
I've read your posts for years. I have considered what you have to
offer and have not found a situation where your particular talents
matched the needs of any of the groups that I've been involved with.
Your name has come up in discussion with people I network with. I have
no idea what communications you may have had with them, if any.
These news groups are as an effective way as any to network with
professionals and potential employers. You need not specifically
advertise your availablity with a resume sent to posted jobs. That
is just one way to be considered for a position.
You have an online personality that presumably matches your real
life personality. That can make it easy for someone to contact you
if they want. It can also allow an employer you have already contacted
through other means to do a quick search on your name and find these
discussions, other web pages you might announce, and of course other
people with the same name. You are not anonymous and don't wish to be.
My experience has been that others are likely to remember those of
us that have a personality that is memorable. I have been offered
and taken some of the jobs offered to me through various news groups.
I have also found many people that were not in contact and needed to
be. In other words, becuase we all knew each other through some means
new relationships, including employment opportunities were formed.
> > I'd suggest listing C++ only if you could be useful to an employer
> > in that language.
>
> I believe I could be useful for some C++ tasks, so if I leave it out
> I'm stupidly cutting myself off from jobs I can do.
Are you equally open to finding junior employment opportunities in
C++? Your experience appears to be focused in other areas where you
are likely to command a higher salary.
David
From: ······@myrealbox.com
Subject: Re: Categories? resume references? (was: How much should I charge f...)
Date:
Message-ID: <3o0sr5F3dpaqU1@individual.net>
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
>> From: "David" <··············@United.Com>
[ snip ]
>Here's a more interesting, and C++ specific, riddle, which I managed to
>solve after both my current-at-the-time C++ instructor and my previous
>C instructor were both stumped by it (and I was stumped until I finally
>read the key information later in the textbook that gave me the clue I
>needed to solve the riddle and explain it to my instructors): How is it
>that cin can be chained, yet cin can be used as a boolean to test for
>EOF? Is the value of cin boolean, true or false depending on EOF or
>not, or iostream, *always* returns itself, never returns a false
>value?? The answer to the riddle is one of the reasons C++ is an
>inscrutably more perverse language than just about any other language,
>making it impossible to understand even one line of code sucn as a
>simple C-syntax IF statement without knowing the entire rest of the
>program simultaneously. Do you want me to tell you the answer now, or
>do you want to try guessing first? To avoid one person telling the
>answer and the other claiming to already know it when in fact he
>didn't, I suggest we use an incremental-info-exchange protocol. Are you
>familiar with the "tell me something I don't already know" problem with
>information barter, and the incremental-info-exchange solution?
Well, I think I understand in general terms why one can write, for
example,
while (cin << data_item)
but apparently you'd prefer people not post explanations just yet,
so I won't.
What I *am* curious about is what this has to do with needing to
know the rest of the program to understand a single line; i.e.,
what makes you say this:
>The answer to the riddle is one of the reasons C++ is an
>inscrutably more perverse language than just about any other language,
>making it impossible to understand even one line of code sucn as a
>simple C-syntax IF statement without knowing the entire rest of the
>program simultaneously.
[ snip ]
--
| B. L. Massingill
| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> How is it that cin can be chained, yet cin can be used as a boolean
> to test for EOF? Is the value of cin boolean, true or false
> depending on EOF or not, or iostream, *always* returns itself, never
> returns a false value??
std::cin does not "return" anything; it's a global instance of
std::istream.� Don't bother clarifying, though; I know what you're
trying to ask, and I know the answer, and it's just not that
mystifying.�
> The answer to the riddle is one of the reasons C++ is an inscrutably
> more perverse language than just about any other language, making it
> impossible to understand even one line of code sucn as a simple
> C-syntax IF statement without knowing the entire rest of the program
> simultaneously. Do you want me to tell you the answer now, or do you
> want to try guessing first?
First explain why you're trumpeting simultaneously both your knowledge
of and ignorant hatred of C++. That you happened to read farther than
your teacher in one area grants you neither license nor authority to
damn the entire language, nor the position to goad others with riddles
you can barely answer yourself.
Footnotes:
� ISO/IEC 14882:1998(E) Section 27.3.1
� ISO/IEC 14882:1998(E) Section 27.4.4.3
--
Steven E. Harris
From: Wade Humeniuk
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <7dnMe.223763$on1.132716@clgrps13>
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>>you should have made more noise. Maybe you find it irritating.
>>Maybe you despise that kind of people. But nobody cares. They got a
>>job, and you didn't. It's about priorities.
>
>
> Please give me advice: After I have already FAXed my resume to a given
> employment agency, how long should I wait before I FAX them another
> copy?
>
>
>>I'd like to question how well these resumes are tailored, and how
>>well they're presented.
>
>
> OK, you be the judge. Here is a resume I sent in response to a job ad
> on May 26:
>
Robert,
Looking at your resume I cannot help but think that you should do
some Undergrad/High School Mathematics Tutoring. If things are anything like here
math tutors are in great demand (~$50/hr). This is something you can
do without a employer, just register your name at the local
universities, or post your own flyers.
Wade
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <871x4txzff.fsf@kafka.homenet>
Wade Humeniuk <··················@telus.net> writes:
> Looking at your resume I cannot help but think that you should do
> some Undergrad/High School Mathematics Tutoring.
Thereby turning a whole generation of kids into maths haters.
Would _you_ want to be taught maths by Maas ?
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <m38xz1mjwt.fsf@4dv.net>
<······@bigpond.net.au> writes:
>
>> Looking at your resume I cannot help but think that you should do
>> some Undergrad/High School Mathematics Tutoring.
>
> Thereby turning a whole generation of kids into maths haters.
>
> Would _you_ want to be taught maths by Maas ?
Actually, he reminds me a fair bit of some maths folks I've known.
Wouldn't surprise me if he's a) very intelligent b) afflicted with
Asperger's. I wish him luck, but I'm not terribly optimistic.
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Remember, you're dealing with developers. If they knew what they
were doing, they wouldn't be doing it.
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87d5odwd8g.fsf@kafka.homenet>
Robert Uhl <·········@NOSPAMgmail.com> writes:
> > Would _you_ want to be taught maths by Maas ?
>
> Actually, he reminds me a fair bit of some maths folks I've known.
My younger son has a weekly maths tuition.
The tutor is polite, well prepared, articulate and
communicates well with my son. He is well worth the $60/ hour I pay.
A lesson with Maas would degenerate into farce as he
tried to convince the student that the best way to learn calculus
was to write a buggy CGI script or a abbysmal web page...
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I have only 17 megabytes of unused space on my Macintosh hard disk.
> How much space does the Macintosh version of OpenOffice need?
Go buy yourself a new hard disk! Yes, I know you don't have the
money. Then you can just do some garbage collection: with a some luck
you'll even find a whole functional CPU.
--
"Indentation! -- I will show you how to indent when I indent your skull!"
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > I have only 17 megabytes of unused space on my Macintosh hard disk.
> > How much space does the Macintosh version of OpenOffice need?
>
> Go buy yourself a new hard disk! Yes, I know you don't have the
> money. Then you can just do some garbage collection: with a some luck
> you'll even find a whole functional CPU.
I'll only say this once, but this thread is getting *really* tedious.
If this guy doesn't have the resources and/or ingenuity to put together
or access a decent machine, who would trust him to write their
software??
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Trust? (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price software...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug24-013@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "jonathon" <···········@bigfoot.com>
> If this guy doesn't have the resources and/or ingenuity to put
> together or access a decent machine, who would trust him to write
> their software??
Do you have any idea how stupid and arrogant that sounds? Basically
you're saying that only people who already have lots of money to buy
the latest equipment out of their own magic funds, should ever be
allowed to work. Nobody, in your view, should ever be allowed to work
to earn the money to buy the stuff you think we should already have.
I don't currently ave financial resources because all the employers in
recent years have been more concerned with the latest buzz words than
with solid ability to design algorithms to solve problems, and
implement those algorithms in working software.
It's not possible to put together a machine without money to buy the
components, and nowadays it's stupid to buy raw components and assemble
your own machine and then write your own operating system when
already-assembled machines with an already-installed operating system
cost less. But regardless of component or pre-built system, without any
money it's impossible to obtain either.
Over the years, I've worked on a wide variety of different computers:
Some in their time were nearly state-of-art (such as a timesharing
computer with five simultaneous local users on keyboard&display devices
plus two on local TTYs and some using TTYs via dialups in 1969,
augmented with a new display system supporting about 30 additional
timesharing terminals starting about 1972. Others were whatever I could
just barely afford on my limited income, such as the homebrew MOS 6502
machine with not one but *two* serial ports which I bought for $600
because I couldn't afford an Apple I which cost $2000 at the time and
cost an extra $200 for each serial port, and a used Macintosh Performa
I bought used for $200 (plus $100 monitor) in 1998 because that's all I
could afford at the time. On all those many computers, I've done really
good programming, innovative, functionning, useful. Only a fool would
decide that because I don't have money for the most expensive system
available today that I can't be trusted to write software.
My ingenuity is in math and software, not in hustling for money.
I expect to be hired to write software, not to hustle money.
Although this thread has been fascinating, are we coming to the point
where we realize that sometimes, some people, just cannot be helped?
My 4 year old has this syndrome sometimes...
--
Michael Campbell
In article <·············@atlmicampbell.checkfree.com>,
Michael Campbell <················@gmail.com> wrote:
> Although this thread has been fascinating, are we coming to the point
> where we realize that sometimes, some people, just cannot be helped?
Robert Maas can be helped (I think), but it's important to understand
that he doesn't really want a job. What he really wants is attention.
As long as people keep trying to help him find what he does not want the
result will inevitably be a continuation of the cycle of whining.
> My 4 year old has this syndrome sometimes...
Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
rg
From: CBFalconer
Subject: Re: Trust? (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price software...)
Date:
Message-ID: <430DE230.C98151B8@yahoo.com>
Michael Campbell wrote:
>
> Although this thread has been fascinating, are we coming to the point
> where we realize that sometimes, some people, just cannot be helped?
>
> My 4 year old has this syndrome sometimes...
Probably because many of us recognize that there is something
buried under there, and we are somewhat sympathetic. We all have a
streak of nuttiness in us.
--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:15:23 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>> From: "jonathon" <···········@bigfoot.com>
>> If this guy doesn't have the resources and/or ingenuity to put
>> together or access a decent machine, who would trust him to write
>> their software??
>
>
>It's not possible to put together a machine without money to buy the
>components, and nowadays it's stupid to buy raw components and assemble
>your own machine and then write your own operating system when
>already-assembled machines with an already-installed operating system
>cost less. But regardless of component or pre-built system, without any
>money it's impossible to obtain either.
It is possible to get guite a good machine for 50 bucks. Or for
free. I sold mine for 50 bucks (working 500 MHz Gateway with 40 GB
disk and 512M memory + 17 in. Gateway monitor) glad that somebody
took it. Out household garbage collecting company doesn't take
computers and TVs, and I would have problems what to do with this. I
don't think it will be sold for more than 100 bucks... Goodwil
Industries store dodn't want to take it. It was too "low end".
There are used computer stores where you can get stuff for very
little. Run google on "used computer store".
A.L.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Do you have any idea how stupid and arrogant that sounds? Basically
> you're saying that only people who already have lots of money to buy
> the latest equipment out of their own magic funds, should ever be
> allowed to work. Nobody, in your view, should ever be allowed to work
> to earn the money to buy the stuff you think we should already have.
I understand from your earlier articles that you live in the San
Francisco Bay area. In that case, you have little excuse for not
having better hardware. You can easily follow the craigslist
"free" section and follow up on the free computers there. Within
a few days or weeks you'd be sure to get one better than the
machine you say you're stuck with now.
--
Ben Pfaff
email: ···@cs.stanford.edu
web: http://benpfaff.org
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Trust? (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price software...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87r7cixlln.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: "jonathon" <···········@bigfoot.com>
> > If this guy doesn't have the resources and/or ingenuity to put
> > together or access a decent machine, who would trust him to write
> > their software??
>
> Do you have any idea how stupid and arrogant that sounds?
Unfortunately, Jonathan is right.
> It's not possible to put together a machine without money to buy the
> components
Corporations and individuals throw away computers daily.
I personally have thrown away a dozen computers including
several SGI Indys (sob! I hated watching the garbage compactor crunch the 20 inch monitor
and the nifty blue cases) because they were too old to be worth keeping
around and were not valuable enough to be worth the hassle of selling.
Like most people, I have also given away computers free.
If you were in Sydney, I would give you a AMD 1800+ system free.
(It is gathering dust on a shelf behind me )
Most computer hobbyists will have spare components and pcs.
Contact a local mac group or linux group or pc group and ask nicely if
they can put an item in their next newsletter about you needing
a free computer. I am sure that someone will provide one.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: "jonathon" <···········@bigfoot.com>
>>If this guy doesn't have the resources and/or ingenuity to put
>>together or access a decent machine, who would trust him to write
>>their software??
>
> Do you have any idea how stupid and arrogant that sounds? Basically
> you're saying that only people who already have lots of money to buy
> the latest equipment out of their own magic funds, should ever be
> allowed to work. Nobody, in your view, should ever be allowed to work
> to earn the money to buy the stuff you think we should already have.
>
> I don't currently ave financial resources because all the employers in
> recent years have been more concerned with the latest buzz words than
> with solid ability to design algorithms to solve problems, and
> implement those algorithms in working software.
>
> It's not possible to put together a machine without money to buy the
> components, and nowadays it's stupid to buy raw components and assemble
> your own machine and then write your own operating system when
> already-assembled machines with an already-installed operating system
> cost less. But regardless of component or pre-built system, without any
> money it's impossible to obtain either.
...
Around melbourne, the council has hard garbage pickups where everyone
dumps whitegoods on the nature strip. I've collected enough hardware
to make dozens of fully loaded pentium class PCs that work fine for web
browsing. Debian runs great on them;)
Even if you had to buy 2nd-hand components from a pc market, you can
make a web capable pentium pc for easily less than US$50.
Russell Shaw <·········@s_pam.netspace.net.au> writes:
> Around melbourne, the council has hard garbage pickups where everyone
> dumps whitegoods on the nature strip. I've collected enough hardware
> to make dozens of fully loaded pentium class PCs that work fine for web
> browsing. Debian runs great on them;)
> Even if you had to buy 2nd-hand components from a pc market, you can
> make a web capable pentium pc for easily less than US$50.
And this in a remote place on a remote continent whose habitant live
in trees. So imagine how easy it should be to garbage-collect
top-notch computing hardware in the middle of the Silicon Valley!
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Grace personified,
I leap into the window.
I meant to do that.
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Russell Shaw <·········@s_pam.netspace.net.au> writes:
>
>>Around melbourne, the council has hard garbage pickups where everyone
>>dumps whitegoods on the nature strip. I've collected enough hardware
>>to make dozens of fully loaded pentium class PCs that work fine for web
>>browsing. Debian runs great on them;)
>>Even if you had to buy 2nd-hand components from a pc market, you can
>>make a web capable pentium pc for easily less than US$50.
>
> And this in a remote place on a remote continent whose habitant live
> in trees. So imagine how easy it should be to garbage-collect
> top-notch computing hardware in the middle of the Silicon Valley!
and that's after fighting off the feral koalas and dislodging
the redbacks from the keyboard;)
Russell Shaw <·········@s_pam.netspace.net.au> writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> Russell Shaw <·········@s_pam.netspace.net.au> writes:
>>
>>>Around melbourne, the council has hard garbage pickups where everyone
>>>dumps whitegoods on the nature strip. I've collected enough hardware
>>>to make dozens of fully loaded pentium class PCs that work fine for web
>>>browsing. Debian runs great on them;)
>>>Even if you had to buy 2nd-hand components from a pc market, you can
>>>make a web capable pentium pc for easily less than US$50.
>> And this in a remote place on a remote continent whose habitant live
>> in trees. So imagine how easy it should be to garbage-collect
>> top-notch computing hardware in the middle of the Silicon Valley!
>
> and that's after fighting off the feral koalas and dislodging
> the redbacks from the keyboard;)
And dodging the drop-bears. *shudder*
--
Tiarn�n
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > you should have made more noise. Maybe you find it irritating.
> > Maybe you despise that kind of people. But nobody cares. They got a
> > job, and you didn't. It's about priorities.
>
> Please give me advice: After I have already FAXed my resume to a given
> employment agency, how long should I wait before I FAX them another
> copy?
That depends on the agency. Pesonally, I only use them if I have to
(ie company I want to work for only hires via that agency). I would
send them the fax, ring the next day to verify they received it
>
> > I'd like to question how well these resumes are tailored, and how
> > well they're presented.
>
> OK, you be the judge. Here is a resume I sent in response to a job ad
> on May 26:
OK. Lets assume you formatted it better than it is here. This looks
like you put about 10 minutes into it. If it landed n my desk, I'd use
it to stop coffee cups from leaving rings on the desktop.
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
Resonable - but only just. Normally, you should include a postal
address as well. Forget about "Internet electronic-mail" - its been
around for a while now, you can just say E-Mail. Also, why the mixed
case in the domain name - anyone who knows anyting knows that case is
irrelevant in this context.
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
Make it brief! What about the year you graduated? i.e.
1967 B. Sci (Mathematics Major)
University of Santa Clara
What about the courses you have done since (Java, C, Data structures etc)
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> undergraduate mathematics competition
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
Shorten the first one. For the published papers, where were they
published, when and in what? Were the articles refereed? Put this
last.
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms)
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
How long have you programmed in these languages? When did you lat use
them? Drop the stuff about the platforms.
> Platforms (programming environments) include: Macintosh, Unix+CGI, MS-Windows,
> RedHat Linux
Why Unix+CGI - there is no specific relationship here - you can do CGI
programming on any platform which has a web server. Skip the brand
names (ie. Red Hat). You want to just show you are familiar with and
competent on these platforms. Again, give an indication of how long
you have worked on each platform.
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
All of the above means nearly nothing. You need to re-work this to
give more of an idea of what this means and why it is relevant to the
job your applying for.
> ADDITIONAL SPECIFIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS/ACTIVITIES/EXPERTISE/EXPERIENCE:
> - Wrote software to use SAX parser in Java/J2EE to convert XML to SQL
> for update to relational database.
> - Wrote software to build&update tables in relational database using JDBC/SQL.
> - Used ANT to maintain compiled versions of J2EE applications as source edited.
> - Wrote white-box unit-testing at all levels of software modules from
> single lines of code to full application use-cases.
> - HTTP, HTML, CGI.
> - Used JCreator to build Java projects.
this does more harm than good. It looks like someone who has no real
experience and is trying to pad things to make it look like they have
some skills. Re-work this to give a better impression - what databases
did you use for this, what did you do it for etc. In fact, I would
probably try and work this into something in the previous section. You
can't call any of this a specific accumplishment - I would assume
anyone working with data retrieval and databases and java would have
all of this.
Based on the above, I would assume you have no work experience at all,
have no previous employers who are willing to vouch for you and not
even any friends who are able to provide you with even a basic
haracter refeence.
If I bothered to read this resume, I would guess it was from a high
school kid trying to get their first job (if not for the dgree). It
shows no specific ability, gives me no idea of what your real skills
look like and no idea why I would bother to interview you. In fact, I
would possibly even be pissed off as it appears I spent more time
reading it than you did writing it.
Generally, I spend around two days preparing a job application. Yours
looks like you put in as little effort as possible. Certainly not what
I want from a new employee.
> Here's another customized resume I sent for a different job ad on Jun1.15:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
ditto
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
ditto
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Among top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam undergraduate
> mathematics competition
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
Huh? What is this? If its published and available via the web, why not
include the url so that they can check it out?
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
> XML parsing (SAX), JavaDoc
> - JavaScript, including calls to Java packages
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
> * Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI,
> Macintosh (systems 6.0.3, 6.0.5, 6.0.7, 7.5.5), MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
ditto as above
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
ditto
> OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
> - HTML, SQL/databases (MicroSoft Access, CloudScape), WebServer applications
Slightly better.
> ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
> - Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
> - Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
> - JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
> - JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
> - Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
> - XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
Your demos and web site look like crap - keep them a secret and don't
offer them up. Alternatively, turn your website into something
impressive, but don't let them see it as it is now!
> Here's another tailored resume I sent to another job ad on the same day:
>
> Robert Elton Maas, Sunnyvale, CA
> Voice: 408-749-0453
> Internet electronic-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com
>
> EDUCATION:
> Mathematics major at University of Santa Clara, Bachelor of Science
> degree
>
> ACADEMIC/INTELLECTUAL HONORS, PROFESSIONAL LICENSES, AND PUBLISHED WORKS:
> - Among top five nationwide in William Lowell Putnam undergraduate
> mathematics competition
> - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
>
> PROGRAMMED IN THESE LANGUAGES:
> - Java (on 3 platforms), including: applets, JDBC/ODBC, JSP, J2EE servlets,
> XML parsing (SAX), JavaDoc
> - JavaScript, including calls to Java packages
> - C (on 4 platforms) C++ (on 2 platforms)
> - Visual Basic
> - Fortran (on 5 platforms)
> - Lisp (on 5 platforms)
> - Assembly/machine language on 7 different CPUs
> * Platforms (programming environments) include: Unix+CGI,
> Macintosh (systems 6.0.3, 6.0.5, 6.0.7, 7.5.5), MS-Windows, RedHat Linux
>
> MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS:
> - Computer-assisted instruction for Calculus
> - Laying out text mixed with mathematical formulas for printing or
> display
> - Information retrieval and indexing, including linked-text frames
> - Packet-based client/server telecommunications, including handling
> interrupts from I/O devices
> - Effective algorithm for flashcard drill
>
> OTHER SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/EXPERTISE:
> - UML, API documentation of my own modules via JavaDoc
> - proficient at rapid protyping&development&deployment via TDD
> (Test-Driven Development based on unit-testing at all levels)
> - developed major application which explored multiple data sources to
> collect the best information, and consolidated it into database
Major application? I really am beginning to think you have deluded
yourself on what you have done - there seems nothing here I can
classify as "major". I will also challenge your claim to proficiency
at rapid prototypeing and development as there is no evidence you have
devleoped anything other than a few very minor small apps.
> ONLINE (Web-accessible) DEMOS:
> - Unix+CGI: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/demos.html
> - Applet: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/Lab7a.class
> - JavaDoc: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/JavaDoc/Blab2/index-all.html
> - JavaScript: http://www.geocities.com/rem642b/JavaScript/js1.html
> - Multi-CGI-language education: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html
> - XML parsing (SAX): http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/New/2005.6.12a.zip
>
> Here's another custom version I sent to yet another job ad the same day:
<snip>
> Notice how they're all based on that same starting resume but I removed
> different items in each and put in special stuff in each to better fit
> the job from among the experience I have but which is relevant to only
> a few jobs?
I noticed that they were all based on the same flawed starting point -
that was obvious. As to them being customized for specific jobs -
although they had minor differences, these were superficial at
best. Funny that if they were taylored for specific jobs how I
couldn't tell what the jobs were.
> > .doc isn't cool, but if it's what everybody wants, you should get
> > used to it.
>
> I don't have any money to pay for MicroSoft Word for Macintosh, so
> that's not an option for me here.
More bloody excuses! If there is a will there is a way and it doesn't
need money. I don't run Windows at home and have not done so for a
very long time and don't have MS Word or Office. However, wehn asked,
I can provide my CV in doc format with no problems.
>
> > For word processing you can get OpenOffice for free
>
> I have only 17 megabytes of unused space on my Macintosh hard disk.
> How much space does the Macintosh version of OpenOffice need?
More pathetic excuses. The only one who makes you a victim is you.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug24-010@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> why the mixed case in the domain name
It's easier to visually identify that various sub-words that way.
> What about the year you graduated?
Only an idiot would make it that easy for a potential employer to see
that I'm over 40 and toss my resume in the trash without even glancing
at the rest of it. You want me to be an idiot, I presume?
> What about the courses you have done since (Java, C, Data structures etc)
My 2005.June resume includes that information. My 1998 resume, and the
early-2003 rearrangement of it by my job coach at Focus for Work, didn't
include those classes because they didn't start until 2003 Summer.
> > - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> > undergraduate mathematics competition
> Shorten the first one.
How?
> > - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> > - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> For the published papers, where were they published, when and in what?
That's not important in a resume. I'm just trying to get a programming
job. If they want more info about my published papers, they can ask me
during a telephone interview. In fact I was never told where the NMR
paper was published, and I wasn't given a pre-print as I was promised.
> Drop the stuff about the platforms.
Why? Each language is somewhat different on each different platform.
The fact I've used the languages on lots of platforms shows I've used a
wide range of versions in a wide range of environments, hence some of
what I've done is likely to be similar to whatever the employer might
want. Somebody else who has never used any of the languages except on
an Amiga, might not have the foggiest idea how to interface to system
utilities on other systems, and might not even be aware that different
platforms have different system interfaces, and might be totally
stumped when Amiga software doesn't run immediately elsewhere. I'm
trying to show my versatility of experience, showing my ability to
adapt in the past and have a variety of experience possibly useful in
the future.
> Why Unix+CGI - there is no specific relationship here - you can do CGI
> programming on any platform which has a web server.
Not true. The server needs to have built-in support for CGI, and that
support must be enabled by administration. However I've split the Unix
part and the CGI part, and combined Unix with Linux, in my latest edit
on the master of the 2005.June resume on my Mac.
> Skip the brand names (ie. Red Hat).
Done in master 2005.June resume on Mac.
> Re-work this to give a better impression
I don't know how. You'll have to help me.
> what databases did you use for this
Only databases I created myself in MicroSoft ACCESS on Windows, and
only the default database in CloudScape on Linux. In both I then made
my own tables in that database, no pre-existing tables. For one
application I manually created all the tables and manually entered all
the data by copy&paste in the ACCESS GUI, and the JDBC application used
it as a read-only lookup table. In another application, creation of all
tables and loading them with all start-up data and adding new data
under user command was all done from JDBC.
> I would assume anyone working with data retrieval and databases and
> java would have all of this.
On the other hand, anyone who had never used databases at all could lie
and write "used databases" on their resume, but only somebody who knew
a little about the techncal details could include all the specific
things that I did, thereby proving I am not lying that I wrote JDBC
software etc.
> Based on the above, I would assume you have no work experience at all,
I have more than 22 years experience writing software, including
several large useful projects. How can I best convey that in my resume
without boring the junior staff member whose job it is to screen
resumes, but without making it obvious I'm over 40 hence unemployable?
> > - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> > published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
> Huh? What is this? If its published and available via the web, why not
> include the url so that they can check it out?
Because although it was the best index on the net from 1991 to about
1995, since then it's been made obsolete first by Yahoo then by Google.
Nobody would want to look at it online now, but still it's impressive
that I created the very first toplevel meta-index to the InterNet
before Yahoo got the idea to start theirs.
> I will also challenge your claim to proficiency at rapid prototypeing
> and development as there is no evidence you have devleoped anything
> other than a few very minor small apps.
Rapid prototypeing and development is a methodology, which can't be
demonstrated by listing projects that allegedly used it.
And trying to describe the methodology would require a major essoy, at
least ten pages, not anything suitable to include in or with a resume.
How would you propose I prove conclusively, by wording on my resume,
that indeed I use that methodology when I write most of my software?
> I noticed that they were all based on the same flawed starting point
Yes. I started with my best resume to-date, which you think is crap but
it's the best I have so-far, and cut out the parts totally irrelevant
to the particular job, and added stuff that wasn't in the general
resume starting-point but where my extra experience matched the
requirements of the job ad. Yielding the best customized resume
I could do when I had collected three or four job ads from a single
search of a job-ads site and needed to get out responses to all those
ads before they became stale. It would have been totally stupid to
spend two months writing a custom resume from scratch for each of those
simultaneously going-stale-fast ads.
> Funny that if they were taylored for specific jobs how I couldn't
> tell what the jobs were.
You couldn't tell that each resume deleted different items and inserted
different new items?
One of the ads, found on CraigsList:
78086540 www.fairisaac.com/Careers/Opportunities. Job Req #383.
Another was: ············@craigslist.org
Another on CraigsList: 76790333 ·····@nextbio.com
Another on CraigsList: 75462527 ···········@rht.com
See if, upon reading the actual job ad, you can match the tailored
resume with the corresponding ad.
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87vf1uxmjb.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > > - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> > > undergraduate mathematics competition
> > Shorten the first one.
>
> How?
"Ranked 5th in the US: Putnam maths competition(undergraduate)"
······@bigpond.net.au wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
> > > > - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> > > > undergraduate mathematics competition
> > > Shorten the first one.
> >
> > How?
>
> "Ranked 5th in the US: Putnam maths competition(undergraduate)"
That's one hell of an achievement. Robert, how did you sink so low?
Drugs? (It was the 60's!) Trauma? Insanity? What happened?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug28-022@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ·········@gmail.com
> That's one hell of an achievement.
I find your comparison of my actual achievement with a mythical place
of eternal torture to be offensive. Please re-phrase whatever you
intended to say in a less offensive form.
> Robert, how did you sink so low?
What are you talking about?? I've never done anything criminal or
abusive or anything else where the word "low" would apply to my morals.
> Drugs?
Only the ones Donald Kennedy must have been using when he diverted
government research funds for his private yacht and summer home,
thereby throwing my place of employment (Stanford University) into
discrace in the eyes of all research funding agencies. When Stanford
got fed up and fired him, Science (journal of AAAS) did a really stupid
thing: hired him as their chief editor. That lowered Science as a
reputed journal in my eyes, and I cringe every time I see one of his
stupid editorials in that now-tainted journal.
> Trauma?
No. When I got laid off because Stanford had no more research funds, I
assumed that since I had 21 years computer programming experience I'd
be able to get another job very soon. It took a long period of
unemployment to convince me little by little that the whole world had
stopped being decent to nice guys like me.
> Insanity?
No. I worked hard on writing a quick resume, and then worked even
harder on an even better resume, and spent long hours, until about 4AM
every night, scanning job ads and documentating all job leads of any
kind and everything I did such as when I responded to a job ad etc. I
accumulated appx. nine (9) megabytes of such notes before I finally got
burned out from exhaustion and couldn't continue at that pace any
longer. Part of my exhaustion was that my wife was beating me up
several times a week in 1993, and abusing our children several times a
day, and I was helpless to convince her to stop the abuse, and the
police refused to ever do anything until early 1994 when they finally
took her away on psychiatric hold making me a single parent. Yes,
insanity, hers. She was totally bonkers. Apparently our not having
money to buy lots of expensive stuff was beyond her coping skills.
Did you see the desperate pleas I posted in mid-late 1993 and early
1994 trying to find anyone who would help me get her out of our lives
so her abuse of us would finally stop? For example, she destroyed her
clock radio, and tried to destroy my color TV, because she truly
believed the neighbors had planted voodoo control devices in them to
eavesdrop on everything she did. While I was in my room scanning job
ads etc., and she was supposed to be watching our children, she gave
our 3.5 yr old son an electric iron, plugged in and turned on, to play
with, and then just left him unattended while she went in the kitchen.
She was totally bonkers, and a danger to everyone around her.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
>> That's one hell of an achievement.
>
> I find your comparison of my actual achievement with a mythical place
> of eternal torture to be offensive. Please re-phrase whatever you
> intended to say in a less offensive form.
That is an.... interesting way to respond to a compliment.
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87zmr0h1in.fsf@kafka.homenet>
Chris Sonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> writes:
> >> That's one hell of an achievement.
> >
> > I find your comparison of my actual achievement with a mythical place
> > of eternal torture to be offensive. Please re-phrase whatever you
> > intended to say in a less offensive form.
>
> That is an.... interesting way to respond to a compliment.
Psychopathology is manifest.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Part of my exhaustion was that my wife was beating me up
> several times a week in 1993, ...
Kinky. A little more information than I wanted to know though.
What I was asking is this. To be one of the top 5 math undergraduates
country-wide (do you have a link proving this BTW?), you have to be
very capable of both learning (required math) and problem solving. At
what point did you feel that your abilities deteriorated and what
caused it?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug28-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> "Ranked 5th in the US: Putnam maths competition(undergraduate)"
No, that's not correct. I might have placed first, or second, etc.,
there's no way to know, because the top five are bundled together with
the individual scores deleted from the record. Those top five are then
candidates for the one-year fellowship to Harvard.
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87k6i6i9cg.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> > "Ranked 5th in the US: Putnam maths competition(undergraduate)"
>
> No, that's not correct. I might have placed first, or second, etc.,
> there's no way to know, because the top five are bundled together with
> the individual scores deleted from the record.
Does anyone really care ?
That was 40 years ago.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
>
> > What about the year you graduated?
>
> Only an idiot would make it that easy for a potential employer to see
> that I'm over 40 and toss my resume in the trash without even glancing
> at the rest of it. You want me to be an idiot, I presume?
Why would you presume Tim X wants you to be an idiot? If you talk to me
that way I'd drop you in my kill file. People here are trying to help you;
they have nothing to gain from it. Why would you assume they are trying to
make an idiot out of you?
Besides, if I apply to a company and hide information from them I'd feel
I'm already off to a bad start with them. I've seen that finding good
people is hard. Why would I eliminate someone just because they are over
40? Why would you want to work for a company that discriminates against
the elderly?
> > What about the courses you have done since (Java, C, Data structures etc)
>
> My 2005.June resume includes that information. My 1998 resume, and the
> early-2003 rearrangement of it by my job coach at Focus for Work, didn't
> include those classes because they didn't start until 2003 Summer.
>
> > > - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> > > undergraduate mathematics competition
> > Shorten the first one.
>
> How?
If you are in your 40s then you were an undergrad in the early 1980s. Why
are you talking about something you did in the 80s? When you get the
interview and the employer looks at you they are going to wonder why you
are talking about things that happened two decades ago.
> > > - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> > > - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> > For the published papers, where were they published, when and in what?
>
> That's not important in a resume. I'm just trying to get a programming
> job. If they want more info about my published papers, they can ask me
> during a telephone interview. In fact I was never told where the NMR
> paper was published, and I wasn't given a pre-print as I was promised.
>
> > Drop the stuff about the platforms.
>
> Why? Each language is somewhat different on each different platform.
> The fact I've used the languages on lots of platforms shows I've used a
> wide range of versions in a wide range of environments, hence some of
> what I've done is likely to be similar to whatever the employer might
> want. Somebody else who has never used any of the languages except on
> an Amiga, might not have the foggiest idea how to interface to system
> utilities on other systems, and might not even be aware that different
> platforms have different system interfaces, and might be totally
> stumped when Amiga software doesn't run immediately elsewhere. I'm
> trying to show my versatility of experience, showing my ability to
> adapt in the past and have a variety of experience possibly useful in
> the future.
A company will probably receive a few hundred resumes for a position. They
will spend a minute (or less) looking at each one until they short list it
to 2 or 3 dozen resumes. You have two jobs when writing a resume. The
first is not getting cut from the short list. The second is getting an
interview.
> > I would assume anyone working with data retrieval and databases and
> > java would have all of this.
>
> On the other hand, anyone who had never used databases at all could lie
> and write "used databases" on their resume, but only somebody who knew
> a little about the techncal details could include all the specific
> things that I did, thereby proving I am not lying that I wrote JDBC
> software etc.
Don't assume you have to convince the person reading your resume. If you
give an example of where you used JDBC then I'd trust you. It would be
during the interview that I would expect the details. That is when I see
if you lied on your resume.
> > Huh? What is this? If its published and available via the web, why not
> > include the url so that they can check it out?
>
> Because although it was the best index on the net from 1991 to about
> 1995, since then it's been made obsolete first by Yahoo then by Google.
> Nobody would want to look at it online now, but still it's impressive
> that I created the very first toplevel meta-index to the InterNet
> before Yahoo got the idea to start theirs.
What have you done recently? I did some really impressive things int he
80s. I don't list them on my resume because companies only care when the
last time you did something impressive. If it wasn't recent then they
don't care at all.
Bottom line, the purpose of writing a resume is to get an interview. IT IS
NOT TO GET A JOB. The purpose of the interview is to get a job offer.
Getting an interview is a job. How would you go about a software project
on a platform you never used and in a new language? Apply the same ideas
to getting an interview. Do some research. Try a few things. Get feedback.
The first few resumes will crash and burn. Learn from your mistakes. Talk
to the people who rejected it. Talk to people who hire but are not
currently looking. Find out from them what the process looks like from
their side.
--
Send e-mail to: darrell dot grainger at utoronto dot ca
(Followups reset)
·······@does.want.spam.com (".") wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> Only an idiot would make it that easy for a potential employer to see
>> that I'm over 40 and toss my resume in the trash without even glancing
>> at the rest of it. You want me to be an idiot, I presume?
>Why would you presume Tim X wants you to be an idiot? If you talk to me
>that way I'd drop you in my kill file. People here are trying to help you;
>they have nothing to gain from it. Why would you assume they are trying to
>make an idiot out of you?
I have heard varying opinions on whether one should put something on
their resume that indicates their age, such as the year they graduated
from college. I have decided that since (1) I can't hide this
information from anyone who really wants/needs to know it, and (2) it
might actually be valuable to an employer to know when I graduated, in
order to have a frame of reference about my educational background,
I'll include it.
>Besides, if I apply to a company and hide information from them I'd feel
>I'm already off to a bad start with them. I've seen that finding good
>people is hard. Why would I eliminate someone just because they are over
>40? Why would you want to work for a company that discriminates against
>the elderly?
Personally, I would not want to work for such a company. I suspect
REM is in a far more desperate situation, so such a company might be
attractive to him if they would hire him (after learning he is capable
of doing the work, but before learning how old he is).
>If you are in your 40s then you were an undergrad in the early 1980s. Why
>are you talking about something you did in the 80s? When you get the
>interview and the employer looks at you they are going to wonder why you
>are talking about things that happened two decades ago.
I've heard mixed opinions here also. In some interviews I've had,
questions were asked about things I'd done in the 1980s that were
pertinent to the work the company was currently doing. In other
interviews, no one cared about anything that I'd done prior to the
early 1990s. I think it behooves someone to put things on their
resume that are pertinent to the work the company is doing, even if
the work was done more than five or so years ago.
--gregbo
gds at best dot com
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Age visible on resume? (was: Resume questions, how convey? ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep01-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ····@best.cut.here.com
> I have heard varying opinions on whether one should put something on
> their resume that indicates their age, such as the year they graduated
> from college.
I've decided to go with this advice:
http://www.quintcareers.com/resume_mistakes.html
don't provide the date of your college graduation if it was more than
about 10 years ago.
> In some interviews I've had, questions were asked about things I'd
> done in the 1980s that were pertinent to the work the company was
> currently doing. In other interviews, no one cared about anything
> that I'd done prior to the early 1990s. I think it behooves someone
> to put things on their resume that are pertinent to the work the
> company is doing, even if the work was done more than five or so
> years ago.
There are two different issues here: Writing a single general resume to
post on a Web site, where you don't know who might look at it, and
writing a custom resume for just one individual job. Your advice
applies only to the latter, whereas the former is the topic we're
discussing here.
Here's a quote from a resume-advice Web site:
The rule of thumb for someone at the senior level is to list about 15
years worth of jobs.
I'm not sure how to apply that in my case.
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:58:10 -0700, Robert Maas, see
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> I've decided to go with this advice:
Robert, these groups are not your personal resume service.
Cease posting off-topic crap about you.
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"It's a never ending battle, for a peace that's always torn.."
Bob Dylan 'Shelter from the Storm'
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep01-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ·······@does.want.spam.com (".")
> When you get the interview and the employer looks at you they are
> going to wonder why you are talking about things that happened two
> decades ago.
Your remark is based on a false premise. I don't intend to talk about
anything the interviewer doesn't ask about, and I don't think any
interviewer would ask me about anything more than 20 years ago.
> A company will probably receive a few hundred resumes for a position.
More likely two thousand resumes for one position. That's the way
statistics have been during this recession. At a recent job fair, there
were only five employers, with probably one job each, yet several
thousand applicants came in person, lined up for hours just for their
brief moment inside the room with the five tables.
> They will spend a minute (or less) looking at each one until they short
> list it to 2 or 3 dozen resumes.
They won't look at any of the resumes at all (for that first
elimination round). A computer program will scan each resume for
buzzwords and any resumes that don't have the right buzzwords will be
eliminated before any human ever sets one glance at any of them. I
estimate 95% of the 2000 resumes are eliminated in that one scan,
leaving only one hundred resumes for some minimum-wage staff member to
scan to eliminate all but 20 resumes, before the actual hiring manager
spends five seconds on each of them.
I have no way to know whether my resume didn't have right buzz words so
got eliminated in the first round, or didn't look right to minimum-wage
staff member so got eliminated in second round, or didn't look right to
actual hiring manager so got eliminated during third round. I'm
thinking the only way to distinguish between pass/fail on first round
is to put something really threatening in the wording, whereby the
minimum-wage staff member will report me to the FBI if my resume is
even seen by a human, so if the FBI never visit me then I know I don't
have the right keywords.
> You have two jobs when writing a resume. The first is not getting cut
> from the short list. The second is getting an interview.
I agree. In theory it's the buzzwords that make the pass/fail
difference for the first round of screening. Unfortunately, except for
my idea just above, I have no way to know whether I passed the buzzword
test or not, hence no idea what part of my resume needs the most work.
> Don't assume you have to convince the person reading your resume. If
> you give an example of where you used JDBC then I'd trust you.
You'd never see my resume, it'd be eliminated before any human ever
took one glance, even before the e-mail server passed it to anyone
human, if it didn't have all the right buzzwords in it.
How do I describe, via buzzwords, that I used JDBC to query a set of
linked tables that represented a tree structure, to allow the user to
select components for building a custom PC system or select some
appropriate standard system given choice of some individual components?
That I used JDBC to set up and maintain and query a set of linked
tables that represent a message system for taxicab dispatchers?
> It would be during the interview that I would expect the details.
What happens at the interview is the least of my worries at this point.
I haven't had an actual interview (except for library page, in 1999,
which had 200 applicants for two positions) since mid-1994.
> What have you done recently?
I set up a whole fucking set of Web pages to detail what I've been
doing the past several years, to answer exactly that question, after
several others asked it just as you did now. Didn't you take even one
glance at it?
Linkname: My recent specific accomplishments
URL: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/SeekJobAccom.html
Yeah, it lists a very large number of accomplishments, because I've
been very busy, accomplishing a lot in recent years. Next time, RTFM
before asking a stupid question already answered.
> I did some really impressive things int he 80s. I don't list them on
> my resume because companies only care when the last time you did
> something impressive.
How many impressive things did you do *after* the 1980s? From your
wording above it sounds like you've done only one impressive thing
since the 1980s, but I want to check if that was correct.
I've done lots of impressive things since the 1980s. Should I list only
the very last one of them, because that's the only one (1) that
companies care about?
> the purpose of writing a resume is to get an interview.
I agree. My 1991 resume, which everyone hates, got me an interview for
CAD Lisp, data compression, data encryption, and information
classification. All of those were from direct ads, none via agencies.
My more recent resumes haven't gotten me even one interview since 1994.
I don't understand it, except if companies have totally stopped posting
direct ads, now posting only through agencies, and the agencies have
not been showing my resume to the employer. I don't know any way to get
my resume seen by an actual employer with an appropriate opening now.
> The first few resumes will crash and burn. Learn from your mistakes.
> Talk to the people who rejected it.
Everyone rejected it. I don't know how to talk to any of them, because
I don't know who any of them are. Just I see a job ad, send my resume
to the e-mail address or FAX number in the ad, and have no idea who
actually attends that address which is for resumes only, hence no way
to contact the person informally to ask a question.
> Talk to people who hire but are not currently looking.
How would you propose that I meet such people?
In the absense of a newsgroup thread already started, what would I say
to a total stranger like that?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
> > What about the year you graduated?
>
> Only an idiot would make it that easy for a potential employer to see
> that I'm over 40 and toss my resume in the trash without even glancing
> at the rest of it. You want me to be an idiot, I presume?
Over 40! LOL. What year was it you started Uni - 63? Makes you a
little more than over 40! How do you think the interviewer will feel
when you come in weilding your zimmer frame!
> > > - Among top five (in whole United States) in William Lowell Putnam
> > > undergraduate mathematics competition
> > Shorten the first one.
>
> How?
OMG - if you cannot work that out, I'd hate to see how specific any
program specifications would need to be before your able to produce anything!
> > > - Report on nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation published
> > > - Report on English-language programming for robot published
> > For the published papers, where were they published, when and in what?
>
> That's not important in a resume. I'm just trying to get a programming
> job. If they want more info about my published papers, they can ask me
> during a telephone interview. In fact I was never told where the NMR
> paper was published, and I wasn't given a pre-print as I was promised.
It is important as it shows your definition of "published" doesn't
just mean stuck up on some bodgy web site. A paper which has been
refereed and published shows you have the ability to clearly
express yourself in writing. It is also a simple way to verify the
honesty of the applicant as its reasonably trivial to verify the facts.
How could you not know where something you wrote was published? All
the papers I've had published required be to do things like sign off
copyright or sign a statement that the work was mine etc etc. Surely
you had to submit the paper to a journal/publisher?
Were you the sole author of these papers - if not, you should be also
indicating you were only a co-author and not give the impression it
was just your work. Its the only explination I can think of why you
wold not know where your paper was published.
If the paper has not been published or was simply a tech report etc,
then don't mention it at all!
> > Drop the stuff about the platforms.
>
> Why? Each language is somewhat different on each different platform.
> The fact I've used the languages on lots of platforms shows I've used a
> wide range of versions in a wide range of environments, hence some of
> what I've done is likely to be similar to whatever the employer might
> want. Somebody else who has never used any of the languages except on
> an Amiga, might not have the foggiest idea how to interface to system
> utilities on other systems, and might not even be aware that different
> platforms have different system interfaces, and might be totally
> stumped when Amiga software doesn't run immediately elsewhere. I'm
> trying to show my versatility of experience, showing my ability to
> adapt in the past and have a variety of experience possibly useful in
> the future.
That may be relevant if you had worked recently on different
plaforms. However, your experience is so outdated its not worth
cluttering up and possibly distracting from points the employer may be
very interested in.
> > Why Unix+CGI - there is no specific relationship here - you can do CGI
> > programming on any platform which has a web server.
>
> Not true. The server needs to have built-in support for CGI, and that
> support must be enabled by administration. However I've split the Unix
> part and the CGI part, and combined Unix with Linux, in my latest edit
> on the master of the 2005.June resume on my Mac.
What do you mean "Not true" - There is lots of CGI stuff out there run
on nearly every platform you can think of, windows, Mac, Linux - none
of which are Unix.
>
> > Re-work this to give a better impression
>
> I don't know how. You'll have to help me.
I don't have to do anything! This is your problem, work it out.
>
> > what databases did you use for this
>
> Only databases I created myself in MicroSoft ACCESS on Windows, and
> only the default database in CloudScape on Linux. In both I then made
> my own tables in that database, no pre-existing tables. For one
> application I manually created all the tables and manually entered all
> the data by copy&paste in the ACCESS GUI, and the JDBC application used
> it as a read-only lookup table. In another application, creation of all
> tables and loading them with all start-up data and adding new data
> under user command was all done from JDBC.
>
> > I would assume anyone working with data retrieval and databases and
> > java would have all of this.
>
> On the other hand, anyone who had never used databases at all could lie
> and write "used databases" on their resume, but only somebody who knew
> a little about the techncal details could include all the specific
> things that I did, thereby proving I am not lying that I wrote JDBC
> software etc.
Actually, they shallow level of description you have made me think you
had next to no database experience at all. From what you have since
put above, I now see you have minimal or next to know experience - so
little, that calling it experience is pushing things a bit. Connecting
to a database using odbc/jdbc or any other bridge is trivial - you can
get the directions out of the manual and have it up and working within
a day. If you are going to sell database experience, you need to show
- Familiarity with SQL, especially the more advanced aspects, such
as nested queries, corelated queries, the transaction model
(commit/rollback), constraints, differences between DDL and DML,
outer join and outer-left join etc.
- Knowledge of the relational database model, a grasp of Cobb's
"Normal Forms" and general database design principles. A good
understanding of the differences between hierarchical, network,
relational and object relational databases is also useful.
- Familiarity with database constraints (i.e. null constraint,
check constraint, foreign key constraint and various different
indexing methods, the impact of functions and indexes etc are
all very useful.
- An understanding of differences in various ANSI SQL
implementations - for example, why might you get different
results for an outer-left join query between two different
databases with the same data which both claim to be ANSI SQL
compliant?
- Optimization. What can you do to optimize ODBC or JDBC (or
whatever) based database connectivity.
- NULLS - how should they be interpreted? When should you specify
"not null" as a constraint and when not to? is null and "" the
same?
These are the sorts of things employers expect someone with experience
working with a database will have. MS Access is barely a database in
the terms of what employers think of when talking about a
database. Database experience is "bread and butter" for most
developers and you need to understand it way beyond the ability to
connect to an access database or a stripped down "wannabe". Get
yourself an instance of postgres to learn with (don't bother with
MySQL). Learn how to use it features, how to administer it, optimize
performance and maintain it. Once you have all of that, you can claim
database experience. Until then, you can only claim minimal experience
with a database connectivity method - which is not much different from
claiming experience with ftp - both are assumed to be something anyone
applying for an entry level positin would have.
> > Based on the above, I would assume you have no work experience at all,
>
> I have more than 22 years experience writing software, including
> several large useful projects. How can I best convey that in my resume
> without boring the junior staff member whose job it is to screen
> resumes, but without making it obvious I'm over 40 hence unemployable?
Over 40 again - heee heee haaa.
Bottom line, stop referring to ove 20 years experience. You don't have
over 20 years experience - stop kidding yourself. When it comes to
jobs, the only experience that counts is paid employment
experiences. Unless you have sat programming 7-8 hours a day 5 6 days
a week for the past 20 years, you do not have 20 years experience. It
also makes you seem like a liar because your skills don't match those
of someone who has been doing it full time for 20 years.
> > > - Toplevel meta-index to the Internet (including Usenet and Bitnet)
> > > published electronically and available via HTTP/WWW
> > Huh? What is this? If its published and available via the web, why not
> > include the url so that they can check it out?
>
> Because although it was the best index on the net from 1991 to about
> 1995, since then it's been made obsolete first by Yahoo then by Google.
> Nobody would want to look at it online now, but still it's impressive
> that I created the very first toplevel meta-index to the InterNet
> before Yahoo got the idea to start theirs.
Gee, maybe you gave them the idea!
If it was "the best" on the net during that period, then some of us
who have been here for a while should remember it - what was it
called? Just for interest, what web server was it being used with back
in 1991? Also, if it was the first, the techniques used to build the
index must have been pretty impressive - how did you do it?
> > I will also challenge your claim to proficiency at rapid prototypeing
> > and development as there is no evidence you have devleoped anything
> > other than a few very minor small apps.
>
> Rapid prototypeing and development is a methodology, which can't be
> demonstrated by listing projects that allegedly used it.
> And trying to describe the methodology would require a major essoy, at
> least ten pages, not anything suitable to include in or with a resume.
> How would you propose I prove conclusively, by wording on my resume,
> that indeed I use that methodology when I write most of my software?
Of course they are methodologies - but you cannot claim experience or
proficiency with a methodology unless you have used it in real world
situations (as opposed to contrived learning environments). Yo can
claim awareness and knowledge of such methodologies, but not
proficiency unless you have real-world experience applying the
methodology to something other than trivial problems.
> > I noticed that they were all based on the same flawed starting point
>
> Yes. I started with my best resume to-date, which you think is crap but
> it's the best I have so-far, and cut out the parts totally irrelevant
> to the particular job, and added stuff that wasn't in the general
> resume starting-point but where my extra experience matched the
> requirements of the job ad. Yielding the best customized resume
> I could do when I had collected three or four job ads from a single
> search of a job-ads site and needed to get out responses to all those
> ads before they became stale. It would have been totally stupid to
> spend two months writing a custom resume from scratch for each of those
> simultaneously going-stale-fast ads.
>
> > Funny that if they were taylored for specific jobs how I couldn't
> > tell what the jobs were.
>
> You couldn't tell that each resume deleted different items and inserted
> different new items?
For someone who keeps pulling up others on their failure to be
prercise, you seem to be able to get vague or inprecise when it suits
you. Read what I wrote again - I didn't say I couldn't tell what was
different from your resumes, I said I could not tell what job
type/class/catagory they were "customized" for. If I couldn't
determine that, its unlikely any employer would see anthing which
would get their attention.
> One of the ads, found on CraigsList:
> 78086540 www.fairisaac.com/Careers/Opportunities. Job Req #383.
> Another was: ············@craigslist.org
> Another on CraigsList: 76790333 ·····@nextbio.com
> Another on CraigsList: 75462527 ···········@rht.com
I don't give a shit about CraigsList and I'm not going to waste my
time holding your hand and spelling everyting out in detail and spoon
feeding you. The key point is that if the type of job was not obvious
to me reading your resumes, it is likely that any prospective employer
is not going to see what it is you have that might interest them.
I'm not going to bother responding to any more of your posts - I
realise now its totally pointless because your more intent on
justifying your current position and being defensive than on honestly
listening and considering either the validity of the criticism or if
you don't feel its valid, why people criticise it. You also seem to
have a real "victim" mentality and I cannot see you ever being able to
deal with it. I will try to put down for one last and final time some
points you may like to consider and possibly change your
perspective/outlook
1. You have been looking for work for over 10 years with no
success. Does this mean your doing something wrong or the whole
rest of the world is wrong?
2. If the whole rest of the world is wrong, why is it other people
find jobs and 10+ years of unemployment is considered excessive -
especially for someone with a University degree?
3. How many other people have you ever heard of who have spent 10+
years failing to get a job in a specific area, but have also failed
to find any other job?
4. Forget about constantly pushing "over 40". You had graduated from
uni before man walked on the moon! If I'm right and you started in
1963, and lets be generous and assume you were a bright school kid
who got through high school by 16 and started Uni at 17, that would
make you 58/59 this year. So, your nearly 60, have not worked for
10+ years, have next to know commercial programming experience with
modern/mainstream/popular languages and trying to get an entry
level position. Its not a position I would envy and I'm not trying
to make light of it, but honestly "Wake up and smell the roses" -
you are totally deluding yourself if you expect to get a
programming job - it just aint gonna happen. Its not fair, but the
world isn't fair.
To put it in a different perspective - I'm in my mid-40's and have
worked as a programmer (commercially) pretty much full time for the
past 19+ years. I was born in 1960 - three years before you entered
Uni. I've probably been a bit fortunate in being able to find jobs,
but I've also been able to find quite a few. The longest job I've
held at one place without a break is 5 years. I have been fortunate
in never having been fired and probably a third of the people I've
worked for have re-employed me at some stage to do additional work
for them. I have lived almost the whole of the last 20 years in a
rural location (a "city" of 20k people) and until about 5 years
ago, nearly all my work was done via telecommuting (apart from some
consulting where they wanted me to work on site).
The point of all of this is that I also have a lot of friends who
had difficulty getting jobs post y2k and the dot com bust. However,
they had similar work experience to me (possibly a bit more
"specialised"). These friends of mine are the ones you have been
competing with over the last 5 years (as well as young energetic
fit recent comp. sci grads). If these commercially experienced
friends of mine have had moderate difficulty in finding jobs and
competing with recent graduates, how well do you think you stack
up?
All of this is not meant to be depressing or cause despair. What I
think you need to do is a really honest and critical re-assessment
of what you want with honest and realistic reference to
reality. You are not going to get a commercial programming
job. However, you may be able to find something related which you
will find tolerable (possibly even rewarding), which will give you
the necessary finances to make life a bit easier and possibly
enable you to indulge in a more satisfying hobby of programming
where you can follow your real programming interests un-restrained
by what may or may not make you more employable as a programmer.
I'm out of this thread (and all related ones now). My apologies to the
rest of the list for this off-topic waste of bandwidth.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Chris Dollin
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <dekejf$81g$1@malatesta.hpl.hp.com>
Tim X wrote:
>> Not true. The server needs to have built-in support for CGI, and that
>> support must be enabled by administration. However I've split the Unix
>> part and the CGI part, and combined Unix with Linux, in my latest edit
>> on the master of the 2005.June resume on my Mac.
>
> What do you mean "Not true" - There is lots of CGI stuff out there run
> on nearly every platform you can think of, windows, Mac, Linux - none
> of which are Unix.
I do not think that what you wrote matches what you wanted to say. Linux
is a Unix, and Mac OS X is another Unix.
--
Chris "electric hedgehog" Dollin
Almost all predictions about life in 2015 are wrong in a fundamental
respect.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug28-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> ... zimmer frame!
I have no idea what you're talking about.
> How could you not know where something you wrote was published?
How would I find out that information? I tried searching online but I
haven't been able to find the right free database where it'd show up.
> All the papers I've had published required be to do things like sign
> off copyright or sign a statement that the work was mine etc etc.
I don't remember anything like that happening. In any case, my boss
asking me to sign something like that still doesn't tell me where the
paper would actually end up when published.
> Surely you had to submit the paper to a journal/publisher?
No, my boss handled all that, except for the abstract I submitted
myself behind the back of the supervising professor who didn't think it
was a good idea. As best I remember, that abstract was in the 1970.Oct
issue of Notices of the AMS. My copy burned up in a warehouse fire in
1972, so I can't easily look it up to verify if my memory is correct.
In that case, my original full paper was submitted, by my supervising
professor, to various journals that dealt with differential algebra,
such as Annals of Math, but no journal would accept it because it was a
specific result in a field where there were only about ten people in
the whole world working in that field who might like to see the result,
so the math department made photocopies of the manuscript and mailed
them to those ten people.
In the case of the NMR research, the paper was by my boss, whose name I
don't remember, but based on a recent online search I believe it might
have been Olav Jardetsky. I contributed my description, which his
secretary re-wrote, or somesuch. I never saw the final copy of the
paper. I was promised a re-print, but never got any. I have no idea
what journal it might have been in.
In the case of the instructable robot research, the journal was one I
never heard of before and can't remember now.
For the rest of my work, I have no idea whether my boss published any
of my work or not.
> Were you the sole author of these papers
Good suggestion. Here's the info:
NMR - contributing author
Robot - primary author
DiffAlg abstract - sole author
Others - unknown if any paper or not
> Its the only explination I can think of why you wold not know where
> your paper was published.
What if my supervisor did all the publishing arrangement?
Can you think of that?
> > I'm trying to show my versatility of experience, showing my ability to
> > adapt in the past and have a variety of experience possibly useful in
> > the future.
> That may be relevant if you had worked recently on different
> plaforms. However, your experience is so outdated its not worth
> cluttering up and possibly distracting from points the employer may be
> very interested in.
Which of the following computer systems/platforms, which I listed in my
resume (Unix/Linux shell, MicroSoft Windows, Macintosh, CGI) are so
grossly obsolete that no current employer would want to know whether I
had ever used such a system to develop software or not?
Note that I didn't include any of the following on my latest resume:
WAITS, ITS, Tenex
> > > Why Unix+CGI - there is no specific relationship here - you can do CGI
> > > programming on any platform which has a web server.
> > Not true.
> What do you mean "Not true"
Lots of Web servers don't allow CGI, or allow only Perl for CGI, not
arbitrary programs. Having CGI that allows arbitrary Unix runnables
(both native binaries and scripts that use native binaries) is
different from Perl-only WebServers such as Tripod, and
no-CGI-whatsoever WebServers such as Geocities.
> they shallow level of description you have made me think you had next
> to no database experience at all.
And what kind of description would fit on one or two lines of a
one-page resume that would convince you I had enough experience to do a
job you wanted me to do?
Or just forget the 1-2 line restriction. Let's say half my page is
stuff about relational databases. What could I reveal in half a page
to convince a skeptic that I really know how to write JDBC software?
> MS Access is barely a database in the terms of what employers think
> of when talking about a database.
MS ACCESS is the only DB available via JDBC at De Anza college.
Oracle was available, but only manually via keyboard/SQL interface,
with no way to make tables or find out what tables were already in the
database it connected to, hence no way to play with it either manually
or via JDBC.
> Get yourself an instance of postgres to learn with ...
If you require me to do that, you'll have to provide the money to buy
it for my Macintosh with only 17 megabytes unused disk space, or for my
laptop with no working modem or diskette drive or CD-Rom drive, hence
no way to install it without first fixing the modem.
If you won't provide the money to do what you want me to do, then don't
order me what to do.
> stop referring to ove 20 years experience. You don't have over 20
> years experience
That's a fucking lie! I do too have 22+ years experience at writing
computer software.
> the only experience that counts is paid employment experiences.
Fuck you! Most of my best work was unpaid.
> your skills don't match those of someone who has been doing it full
> time for 20 years.
You don't even know what my skills are! The total time I've spent
writing computer software is at least equivalent to 22 years fulltime.
> If it was "the best" on the net during that period, then some of us
> who have been here for a while should remember it
If you were reading PACS-L in 1991, you'd be well aware of it.
> what was it called?
The two files were MaasInfo.TopIndex and MaasInfo.DocIndex.
The first was a list of various indexes/lists that were around at that
time, and the second was a list of important documentation about the
InterNet that was around at that time, in both cases telling the exact
FTP site and filename etc. where to find each such.
> Just for interest, what web server was it being used with back in
> 1991?
It was on a server in Taiwan, in Texas, and in Tasmania, all FTP
servers except the Texas one also had e-mail fetch commands.
> Also, if it was the first, the techniques used to build the
> index must have been pretty impressive - how did you do it?
I did it all manually, using a text editor to build the text and
assemble the FTP data. Most of the raw data was posted to PACS-L, where
every few weeks somebody would announce they had found such-and-such
list or index and tell where to find it. I merely collected all these
pointers into my master index so that there'd be a single place
everyone could go to find all the important lists/indexes and
documents. I did a search just now, and I see that after I had been
passing word privately to various people, I still wasn't ready for a
full public announcement but I cited my index in response to a need
1991.Oct.12:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.digest/msg/cb0a1875451e5c1e
Message-ID: <··················@sumex-aim.Stanford.EDU>
then somebody else included reference to my index in her posting of
various useful resources 1991.Nov.04:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.education.distance/msg/8529d3bc37d05a98
Message-ID: <····@sousa.ltn.dec.com>
then when I felt comfortable the index was in good enough shape my
first formal public announcement on PACS-L was 1992.Jan.03:
http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.pacs-l/msg/d03e8a6c6b9fc3eb
Message-ID: <·····················@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
See also announcements of multiple FTP locations 1994.Feb.22:
http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.pacs-l/msg/eb83631e99f8f06e
Message-ID: <··········@openlink.openlink.com>
and 1994.Apr.07:
http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.pacs-l/msg/365b52adc8dc453d
Message-ID: <····················@btr.btr.com>
also 1994.Nov.21:
http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.pacs-l/msg/fdca6ca2c0219ebd
Message-ID: <····················@btr.btr.com>
also for e-mail access, 1995.Jan.03:
http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.pacs-l/msg/cfe4d9b87298e44a
Message-ID: <····················@btr.btr.com>
> Of course they are methodologies - but you cannot claim experience or
> proficiency with a methodology unless you have used it in real world
> situations (as opposed to contrived learning environments).
Spam is a real-world problem costing more than 50% of the total e-mail
resources in recent years, therefore fighting spam is a real-world
application. Not having control over a SMTP server, and not having
access to the court for suing spammers for $1000 per spam per
California law, my only active option was automating the process of
collecting CTW (Complain To Whom) data and validating it, and using it
to automatically complain about each new incoming spam just a few
seconds after it was noticed by my program that checked my inbox once
per minute. In that way the ISP, if it cared to reduce its outgoing
spam, could catch the spammer in the act.
Lots of people used my computerized pseudo-typesetting (precursor to
desktop publishing) software before Knuth did his TeX. This was
a real-world task for people who had no other practical way to
edit their manuscripts that had complicated mathematical formulas.
(Even after TeX, some people preferred my software because with
Gosper's macros it automatically converted MacSyma output to nicely
formatted output, something TeX can't do.)
Do you want more examples of my software solving real-world problems
(college payroll, college class assignments, for example), or have I
made my point with those first two?
> applying the methodology to something other than trivial problems.
I've written software to solve a large number of non-trivial problems,
not all as real-world practical as described above, but still not
trivial in any way. How about if I describe the purpose of five of my
nontrivial problems, and you see if you can write software to solve all
five of them in less than one day of effort? I bet you can't do them
all in even a month of effort, but if they were trivial as you claim
you'd be able to do all five of them in 24 hours. With such a wide gap
between my claim and your claim, it should be easy to see if they are
trivial (maybe it takes you two days because you were busy one of the
days), or very very non-trivial as I claim (it'll probably take you a
full month or two just to do *one* of them completely, but taking even
half a month to get the first completed would show for sure I am
correct and you are wrong).
> I said I could not tell what job type/class/catagory they were
> "customized" for. If I couldn't determine that, its unlikely any
> employer would see anthing which would get their attention.
An employer looking to fill a particular job, and getting resumes
labeled for that particular job, already knows which job the resume is
for, and merely has to check whether it is or is not suitable. He
doesn't have to guess, from the thousands of jobs offered by hundreds
of companies, what job each resume might be for. So your failure to do
a very difficult guessing task is no proof the employer wouldn't be
able to do that much easier task of noticing that I have a lot of
different qualifications including the ones needed for the job.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> I did it all manually, using a text editor to build the text and
> assemble the FTP data. Most of the raw data was posted to PACS-L, where
> every few weeks somebody would announce they had found such-and-such
> list or index and tell where to find it. I merely collected all these
> pointers into my master index so that there'd be a single place
> everyone could go to find all the important lists/indexes and
> documents.
[...]
> my only active option was automating the process of
> collecting CTW (Complain To Whom) data and validating it, and using it
> to automatically complain about each new incoming spam just a few
> seconds after it was noticed by my program that checked my inbox once
> per minute.
[...]
> Lots of people used my computerized pseudo-typesetting (precursor to
> desktop publishing) software before Knuth did his TeX. This was
> a real-world task for people who had no other practical way to
> edit their manuscripts that had complicated mathematical formulas.
> (Even after TeX, some people preferred my software because with
> Gosper's macros it automatically converted MacSyma output to nicely
> formatted output, something TeX can't do.)
>
> Do you want more examples of my software solving real-world problems
> (college payroll, college class assignments, for example), or have I
> made my point with those first two?
Actually, these are far more interesting than a resume filled with
buzzwords, at least for me. These are too detailed to be in resume,
but you may be able to make a link from each item under
'MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS' in your online resume to a document
that fully explains what you did.
> > I said I could not tell what job type/class/catagory they were
> > "customized" for. If I couldn't determine that, its unlikely any
> > employer would see anthing which would get their attention.
>
> An employer looking to fill a particular job, and getting resumes
> labeled for that particular job, already knows which job the resume is
> for, and merely has to check whether it is or is not suitable. He
> doesn't have to guess, from the thousands of jobs offered by hundreds
> of companies, what job each resume might be for. So your failure to do
> a very difficult guessing task is no proof the employer wouldn't be
> able to do that much easier task of noticing that I have a lot of
> different qualifications including the ones needed for the job.
Being an all-around player actually put you in a difficult position.
Job market is not for such person. It may seem unreasonable that,
if one candidate can do everything so well, and another can do
just one thing so-so, and the company tends to hire the latter
when the one thing fits the job description. That's the reailty.
Jobs that require high skills are often filled by personal
referrals. I have been asked to find a good Lisp programmer,
or even I myself have looked for one to subcontract my own
project. Those jobs are not posted publicly.
Like it or not, once you got many years of experience, you're
expected to have enough personal connections. If you haven't
got them, probably you should start from making them...
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-008@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
> > Do you want more examples of my software solving real-world problems
> > (college payroll, college class assignments, for example), or have I
> > made my point with those first two?
> Actually, these are far more interesting than a resume filled with
> buzzwords, at least for me.
But if you were trying to fill a job at your company, you'd never see
my interesting resume, because you'd be required to file your job
opening with HR, which would hire an outside agency to screen tens of
thousands of resumes down to just ten or twenty, and my resume wouldn't
have the right buzzwords so it'd never get from agency to HR much less
to you personally.
> These are too detailed to be in resume,
> but you may be able to make a link from each item under
> 'MAJOR PROGRAMMING PROJECTS' in your online resume to a document
> that fully explains what you did.
Ay, there's the rub! The agency wouldn't see any of those links, and if
the Sahara froze over and the agency passed my resume to HR it wouldn't
see links either, and you upon getting the printed resume from HR
wouldn't see them either. Should I list somewhere in the printed resume
where the online version with links is located (URL)? Should I put
square brackets around all the terms in the printed resume which
corresponding to HREFs in the online resume, so the person seeing the
printed resume would know whether the term he/she is interested in has
a link, hence whether it'd be worth the effort to look at the online
version?
I'm also thinking that the printed and online resume should look
exactly the same, as much as is possible knowing that the prited resume
is in one format whereas the online resume looks slightly different
depending on which browser was used. This is so that somebody who has
already gotten the printed resume, and marked all the places where
he/she wants to see the extra info, can then go online and see almost
exactly the same layout on-screen and therefore have no trouble finding
those same links and clicking on them. Agree? So maybe what I should do
is make a HTML resume, and then use lynx's print command to make a text
file containing what is on-screen (whole page, not just 20-line window
thereof), and then that lynx-printed image would be the printed resume
I send to people offline. (And of course I wouldn't have to maintain
two separate resumes, just one HTML and then re-do the lynx-print any
time I need to make the printed resume match the online resume.)
The main problem with that idea is that when I'm not online and I want
to edit my resume, currently I just go to my Mac and open the resume
file and edit locally, but under the new method I would have no way to
view the resume I've edited locally except to upload to my unix shell
account and then run lynx to view just one screen of it at a time, then
lynx-print then download back to my Mac to see the whole of my resume
with what I had changed, royal hassle just to make a tiny change!!
> Being an all-around player actually put you in a difficult position.
> Job market is not for such person. It may seem unreasonable that,
> if one candidate can do everything so well, and another can do
> just one thing so-so, and the company tends to hire the latter
> when the one thing fits the job description.
What do you think of "playing dumb" on each customized resume, by
filling more than half the resume with just those particular things I
did specifically related to the current job ad, and condensing
everything else to an afterthought of no apparent significance? Or more
drastic: deleting *all* experience not closely related to the job,
flushing *all* my major accomplishments or anything else impressive,
because it's counter-productive when applying for any specific job in a
different area?
> Jobs that require high skills are often filled by personal
> referrals.
Nobody has offered me any such referrals since I got laid off from
Stanford. Previously, somebody I was working for at Stanford would hear
of another department that could use me as soon as the current project
was over, or the same department would tell me about a new project in
the same department that could overlap slightly with the tail end of my
current project. But when Stanford ran out of any money to hire me any
more, and the place I used to work was closed down due to founder
retiring, there was nobody remaining to tell me about any jobs and no
money for any such jobs in the first place.
So how does such an enemployed person ever hope to get back into that
personal-referral game??
> I have been asked to find a good Lisp programmer, or even I myself
> have looked for one to subcontract my own project.
If this occurred any time since mid-1992, why didn't you find me??
Have you been blind to the several times I posted my Lisp resume online
or mentionned that I had 10+ years Lisp experience and was looking for
employment doing same but now for industry instead of university?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/623610bb8dd35943
Message-ID: <····@public.BTR.COM> (1992.Jun, asking about industry Lisp job)
http://groups.google.com/group/ba.jobs.misc/msg/924ff4f7ff612059
Message-ID: <····@public.BTR.COM> (1992.Oct, discussion mentions lisp resume)
http://groups.google.com/group/ba.jobs.resumes/msg/b251811c5fd5c948
Message-ID: <············@supernews.com>#1/1 (1998, general resume mentions lisp)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.jobs.resumes/msg/0d1bcbe92ff280fa
Message-ID: <············@remarQ.com> (1999, Lisp-specific resume)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/662ae71b1e28748d
Message-ID: <·············@corp.supernews.com> (1999, Lisp-specific resume)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a25c5d5ca184628b
Message-ID: <·················@Yahoo.Com> (2003, Lisp-specific resume)
(Folloup to: c.l.l., since it is slightly related to Lisp job market.)
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
> > Actually, these are far more interesting than a resume filled with
> > buzzwords, at least for me.
>
> But if you were trying to fill a job at your company, you'd never see
> my interesting resume, because you'd be required to file your job
> opening with HR, which would hire an outside agency to screen tens of
> thousands of resumes down to just ten or twenty, and my resume wouldn't
> have the right buzzwords so it'd never get from agency to HR much less
> to you personally.
No. There's no such screening process. If I need people to work
for me, I directly contact them. Likewise, in all the Lisp job
I've ever got, I've never gone through such screening process.
There are other kind of screening process, though. See below.
> Should I list somewhere in the printed resume
> where the online version with links is located (URL)?
I do that all the time. I also include urls to my
projects in case they want to check out.
> I'm also thinking that the printed and online resume should look
> exactly the same, as much as is possible knowing that the prited resume
> is in one format whereas the online resume looks slightly different
> depending on which browser was used.
I don't think that's important at all. But that's my personal opinion.
> The main problem with that idea is that when I'm not online and I want
> to edit my resume, currently I just go to my Mac and open the resume
> file and edit locally, but under the new method I would have no way to
> view the resume I've edited locally except to upload to my unix shell
> account and then run lynx to view just one screen of it at a time, then
> lynx-print then download back to my Mac to see the whole of my resume
> with what I had changed, royal hassle just to make a tiny change!!
I don't understand. It sounds like very little effort compared
to the real job. And you should be able to automate the verification
process to a certain degree; it is a pure technical problem solvable
in your current resources.
> > I have been asked to find a good Lisp programmer, or even I myself
> > have looked for one to subcontract my own project.
>
> If this occurred any time since mid-1992, why didn't you find me??
> Have you been blind to the several times I posted my Lisp resume online
> or mentionned that I had 10+ years Lisp experience and was looking for
> employment doing same but now for industry instead of university?
Back in 1992 I was a student. Even after I became involved
in hiring process, I didn't read c.l.l. so often, and when I did,
I just checked out the subjects that interested me.
You have to post your stuff at the right moment and the right
thread when I (or some other people like me) am looking.
Sounds unreasonable? But there are two important lessons here.
I tell you them for the last time.
First. There are more Lisp jobs than you think, but not
enough for potential employers to check c.l.l all the time.
You have to show your presense at the right moment. How can
you do so? I guess posting your resume all the time to c.l.l
wouldn't help. Instead, whenever you come up a cool technical
solution or write up a cool piece of software, post it here and web.
Keep doing that. People may or may not find it interesting.
Once in a while, some people *may* be interested. But just once
or twice aren't enough; people don't rememeber that. If a
person is interested in the idea posted here, and click the
link, and find your name once again after five or six times,
then you've finally shown your presense. That is the *beginning*.
You can start building personal connections from there. And one
in hundreds of such connections will connect to a job.
(You don't need to 'socialize' yourself. If you keep producing
good outcome, eventually people come to know you).
I sometimes recommend or contact to people I never met in
real life, but I came to know them through open-source projects
and learned they have enough technical and problem solving skills
by the chunk of code they've written.
Second. You've finally got the right moment, and succeeded to
interest me in this thread, enough to post replies.
You have to use such a rare occasion effectively.
After reading your situation, I did think some subprojects I
could outsource. If you showed the technical skills the projects
required, I was ready to contact you. You didn't. Instead, you
showed lack of them. (Don't take me wrong; you may have skills
in some other fields.) This is the implicit screening process
in the real life. You didn't make it. Sorry.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep05-005@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
> If I need people to work for me, I directly contact them.
Frankly I don't believe you. I've been available to work for you, with
14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine, yet not once in all
these years did you contact me about working for you. Why not?
Now answer my original (implied) question: How do I get you to see my
resume or other qualifications when you need somebody to do Lisp
programming for you, and how do I get you to consider me for the job?
Sitting on my butt waiting for you to contact me obviously isn't the
answer. You don't ever advertise your jobs, so there's no way for me to
know when you are looking and make special contact with you at that
time. I've posted lots of times to this newsgroup, so if you *ever*
read this newsgroup you should be well aware that I've been available,
at least since I first got newsgroup access in 1992. Do I need to spam
you every day for years just in case one of those times you will
respond?? How else can I learn when you are looking so that I might
apply at that opportune time?
> > Should I list somewhere in the printed resume
> > where the online version with links is located (URL)?
> I do that all the time. I also include urls to my
> projects in case they want to check out.
Expecting a person, reading a printed resume, to manually re-key one
URL to get the online version of the resume, and then just click on
various links to get the specific details, seems reasonable. Including
multiple URLs directly in the printed resume, and expecting the reader
to manually re-key each of them individually, seems not a good idea.
Showing the URLs from the online resume in the printed resume, as a
teaser to encourage the reader to manually key the one URL for the
overall online resume then go click on those other URLs instead of
re-keying them, seems plausable, although I wonder how many droid in HR
departments or agencies would be intelligent enough to figure out doing
that instead of manually re-keying all the separate URLs?
So you've basically agreed with my current idea/plan, of making a HTML
resume, which cites its own URL in visible form, and which has links to
the many detailed WebPages, then using the print form of that resume as
my FAXed resume, it seems, so I'm almost ready to move forward that
way.
> > The main problem with that idea is that when I'm not online and I want
> > to edit my resume, currently I just go to my Mac and open the resume
> > file and edit locally, but under the new method I would have no way to
> > view the resume I've edited locally except to upload to my unix shell
> > account and then run lynx to view just one screen of it at a time, then
> > lynx-print then download back to my Mac to see the whole of my resume
> > with what I had changed, royal hassle just to make a tiny change!!
> I don't understand. It sounds like very little effort compared
> to the real job.
It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time I change
the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume. I have to connect to my
ISP and log in, which takes 3 minutes, then start up Kermit and tell it
to receive some file, then tell VersaTerm to upload a file using
Kermit, which takes about 2 minutes to set up and another 2 minutes to
run, then quit Kermit and arrange to convert MS-DOS format upload to
Unix format file, another 2 minutes, then navigate the Web browser to
that file and print, another 2 minutes, then use emacs to convert to
MS-DOS format, another 2 minutes, then set Kermit to download, and set
VersaTerm to receive, and wait for it to download, another 2 minutes,
log back out and wait for host to disconnect, then quit VersaTerm
because it can't be running at same time as FAX software. Let's say a
total of 16 minutes without any checking to see if I was even using the
correct version of the files. Add time for checking versions, for
checking if I got the format correct in the WebPage resume, for
renaming files to correct directories, for using FTP to upload WebPage
resume to Tripod, for checking if it works from Tripod, and I'm up to a
half hour if nothing went wrong. If one thing is wrong, and I have to
repeat the cycle, that's another half hour.
> And you should be able to automate the verification process to a
> certain degree ...
Not really. With some files on my Macintosh, and other files on Unix,
and other files on Tripod, files have to be moved from one place to
another (over modem between Mac and Unix, or via FTP between Tripod and
Unix) before any software (on Unix) can compare them to check which is
the correct version. The verification process itself merely involves
running diff or compare-windows, and then manually eyeballing the
result, and there's no way to automate that beyond that fact that diff
and compare-windows already exist and are invokable from shell or from
emacs or McSink respectively.
> You have to post your stuff at the right moment and the right
> thread when I (or some other people like me) am looking.
I can't read your minds, so I can't know when you are looking.
Obviously none of you have been looking any time I've posted in the
past 12 years, and I wouldn't be comfortable spamming this group with
my resume repeated at weekly intervals just in the hope of catching one
of you when you're looking.
> whenever you come up a cool technical solution or write up a cool
> piece of software, post it here and web.
How would I do that in any appropriate way? Should I start a new thread
for each "cool" module of Lisp code I've written? What should I say?
Here's what I've done using Lisp .... would anybody like to hire me to
write similar software for you, or to configure my present software for
your situation? I don't see anybody else doing that, so I'm not sure
it'd be appropriate in this newsgroup.
I could compile a list of various Lisp software modules I've written,
and post the complete list on a Web site, and post the URL here, but I
don't see anybody else doing that either, and I doubt any employer
would bother to follow the link to see what I've done. (How many
employers have even bothered to follow the link to my Lisp resume?? I
know how many have followed the link and then contacted me about
employment doing similar work for them: ZERO.)
For those who missed the link on all previous postings, here it is again:
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-LISP.txt
> Once in a while, some people *may* be interested. But just once
> or twice aren't enough; people don't rememeber that. If a
> person is interested in the idea posted here, and click the
> link, and find your name once again after five or six times,
> then you've finally shown your presense.
Only if they happen to remember my name when they first see it, so that
when they see it again they recognize it as the same person and start
to see a pattern. If their memory for random names is as bad as mine,
they can't remember who said what except in extreme cases. (Kent Pitman
is the only person who has posted enough good stuff and some really
good stuff that I recognize his name as the person who posted it and
notice it's him again whenever I'm following a thread and come to
another of his contributions. Everyone else I get mixed up who said
what, except that one major contribution by Patricia finding obscure
references to my published works, but I can't remember anything else
specific she or anyone else except Kent posted, and even in Kent's case
I can't remember half the good stuff he wrote that I've read.)
I can't think of any way to make my name easier to remember, so that as
soon as a person sees one (1) interesting thing I've said they will
recognize my name the next time I turn up in a thread they're reading,
so they'd connect anything new with anything previous. I suppose if I
had a really cute ASCII-art I could include each time I mention some
cute hack I wrote in Lisp, that would help, but I don't have any such
that would be appropriate and not stupid.
> You can start building personal connections from there.
In theory, since I've been posting here since early 1992, more than 13
years ago, I should already have established at least one such personal
connection. But in fact the number to date is zero. So your theory
isn't valid. It just doesn't work.
> If you keep producing good outcome, eventually people come to know
> you.
That doesn't work either. I've been producing good outcome since 1971,
yet I am not aware of even one person currently in industry who is
aware of my good outcomes and has contacted me any time in the past ten
years, except Bill Gosper who, prior to going into seclusion, e-mailed
me some of his latest math-graphic hacks about 5 years ago, but only
after I contacted him first on another matter and chatted with him in
person once or twice.
The people who were aware of my early good work at Stanford A.I. lab
have gone their separate ways and have shown no interest in helping me
get employment. Bill Gosper seems to have gone into seclusion. Hans
Moravec moved to CMU many years ago and hasn't contacted me since. John
McCarthy and Les Earnest have retired and no longer have any contacts
in industry. Whit Diffie has shown no interest in me since the A.I. lab
shut down so we could no longer see each other in passing in the
building (although he did say 'hi' to me at Pat Suppes' retirement
party circa 1993). I have no idea what happened to Mike Farmwald since
the A.I. lab shut down.
The people who worked on PCNET with me have since dispersed, no word
from any of them except I saw Mike Wilber once a few years ago when we
both attended a WesTech/BrassRing job fair.
The people who used the software I developed at MIT-MC and MIT-ML have
also dispersed and I haven't heard from any of them since I lost the
ability to connect there when the Ames-TIP installed passwords and I
didn't qualify for one.
Where I used to work at Stanford all disbanded, everyone going their
separate ways. I tried to contact my former supervisor but he was out
of town. The only person who was friendly to me (in a personal way, as
opposed to a Jack Webb style of co-working) during my work there, moved
to San Francisco before the project was done, and by chance he moved to
the same neighborhood where my fiancee's family was planning our
after-wedding party, so I invited him there and he showed up briefly,
and I never saw him or heard from him since.
Except for that one MicroSoft-only recruiter at Volt that one time
(early 2001), not one person (of any technical competance) in the local
area has seriously looked at or tried any of my software of the past
ten years. Even Jennie and Elizabeth, my job coach and resume helper at
FFW, didn't have time to spend more than a moment to try my software.
I continue to do good work, whenever I'm in the mood to work for free
again just to accomplish something, but nobody ever cares or even
notices. Just this past July and August I've been working on a new
project, off and on when I'm in the mood for unpaid work and don't have
anything urgent to do instead. It's basically a complete
re-implementation of a utility I originally wrote in MacLisp in 1977.
The original used a crude hack at one point instead of a fully
recursive method, to accomplish one of the sub-tasks. The new software
uses the the mathematically proper/complete fully recursive method
instead, and is nicely structured into different modules that handle
the various kinds of tasks needed. It's not yet reported in my list of
recent achievements because it's not finished to the point where I can
claim to have achieved it yet. At the moment I'm torn between spending
the whole day responding to newsgroup articles and working on a new
resume, or spending the whole day getting back into work on that
re-impl project. As you can tell, today I chose newsgroup/resume work,
so the re-impl work will have to wait until another day.
> I sometimes recommend or contact to people I never met in
> real life, but I came to know them through open-source projects
> and learned they have enough technical and problem solving skills
> by the chunk of code they've written.
I wrote several programs (for different CPUs, 6502 and 8080, or
high-level programming languages, Lisp and Algol) for packet-based
communication. All were open source. The source, and documentation,
were openly published on MIT-MC. Did you take a look at my code before
MIT-MC ceased to exist? What did you think of my code? Did it show my
ability to write good code?
> You've finally got the right moment, and succeeded to
> interest me in this thread, enough to post replies.
> You have to use such a rare occasion effectively.
I'm not sure what I can do at this point. Do you have a suggestion?
> After reading your situation, I did think some subprojects I
> could outsource.
What sorts of applications are you talking about? I"m curious whether
they are the kinds of applications I'd be especially interested in
helping with, and/or anything I have experience or expertise or talent
with, or where upon thinking about such a problem for a while I have a
good idea how it might be accomplshed. For example, with that toy
"Strawberry Fields" problem one of the companies presented in a list of
challenges, I've been thinking about various heuristics that might be
useful for solving it, but I haven't yet thought of any that seem good
enough to warrant my writing code to implement it. Many years ago
McCarthy told me about the Minsky/Papert challenge, and the best idea I
ever came up with would work only **if** the distribution of the
records was strongly clustered, such as a fractal, which is likely to
be true in real-world information spaces, such as generated from
intermixing of threads of discussion, or deluges of auto-generated spam
trying to defeat spam filters while still holding the basic advertising
messages, but not in artificially contrived pseudo-random
break-the-algorithm datasets.
Since it's c.l.l., let me try a constructive comment
related to Lisp first.
Robert, your strong skill seems oriented to math, and
you've done some work for solving puzzles. Quite a few
people like to spend solving online puzzles for fun. How
about setting up a web application that offer various
puzzles? Lisp would be a nice fit for such a project.
You can put AdSense on it, if you like.
Actually, there are tons of such sites, but you can "beat
the averages" with Lisp, can't you?
Of course, you need to tune the problems so that people
with various math skills, not only those as smart as you,
can enjoy it. So you have to deal with users.
Dealing with users is probably much more difficult than
implementing puzzle generator and solver.
Now, I reply to your original post.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
> > If I need people to work for me, I directly contact them.
>
> Frankly I don't believe you.
It's your choice not to believe it. You've got information,
and now it's up to you to use it wisely to achieve your goal.
> I've been available to work for you, with
> 14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
> boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
> plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine
No.
> Now answer my original (implied) question: How do I get you to see my
> resume or other qualifications when you need somebody to do Lisp
> programming for you, and how do I get you to consider me for the job?
I did see your resume. I think you've been pretty successful to
let people see your resume (and remember your name).
I answer to the last question. You asked how to edit your
website and check it on IE, and I suggested to use cgi, remember?
I didn't mean to test you, but if you'd implemented it right away
with some clever security consideration, I'd have contacted you.
Because it would've shown the fundamental skill of applying technical
knowledge to solve the real-world problem in real-world constraints.
Your reply was the worst one. That immediately disqualified you.
For every single post to the newsgroup, for every single
statement in public, you've been tested. *I* haven't seen
you until recently, but it's very likely that someone like me,
or someone who knows potential employer, have seen your resume,
your ideas, and your projects. If nobody has contacted to you,
that means you didn't pass the test.
> > I don't understand. It sounds like very little effort compared
> > to the real job.
>
> It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time I change
> the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume. I have to connect to my
[snip]
> repeat the cycle, that's another half hour.
Do you realize you've just explaned in detail that how much
you are *not* qualified for most programming jobs?
Most programming jobs are to identify and get rid of this
kind of tedious manual repetitive work of clients. Usually
it is clients who complain how much tiny change takes
their time, and *you* are the person who should come up a
technical solution. The clients save their time, so
they pay for it.
> I wrote several programs (for different CPUs, 6502 and 8080, or
> high-level programming languages, Lisp and Algol) for packet-based
> communication. All were open source. The source, and documentation,
> were openly published on MIT-MC. Did you take a look at my code before
> MIT-MC ceased to exist? What did you think of my code? Did it show my
> ability to write good code?
Wow, that's a history. No, I didn't see it. I doubt that
I even had a Net connection then. Majority of programmers
you're trying to compete in the job market are
like that, too. And they're producing huge pile of code as
Open Source. SourceForge.net currently hosts over a hundred
thousand projects.
In case you overlooked it, I repeat. Just making code
open doesn't earn people's attention, let alone job offers.
Supporting it, getting users, dealing with user feedback,
solving *users'* problems, improving it to catch up the new
hardware, years of these kind of efforts count.
How many users did you get for your packet communication
program, and how many are using the newest version of it now,
adapted to the modern hadrware?
(Actually, if your code is still in use, you should
advertise it. Writing a piece of code that are used
that long certainly shows your exceptional ability.)
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
>> If I need people to work for me, I directly contact them.
>
> Frankly I don't believe you. I've been available to work for you, with
> 14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
> boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
> plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine, yet not once in all
> these years did you contact me about working for you. Why not?
Why didn't girl XY give me a call? Why doesn't everybody use SBCL? Why
don't all computers run DOS? Maybe they found something they liked better?
> Now answer my original (implied) question: How do I get you to see my
> resume or other qualifications when you need somebody to do Lisp
> programming for you, and how do I get you to consider me for the job?
> Sitting on my butt waiting for you to contact me obviously isn't the
> answer. You don't ever advertise your jobs, so there's no way for me to
> know when you are looking and make special contact with you at that
> time. I've posted lots of times to this newsgroup, so if you *ever*
> read this newsgroup you should be well aware that I've been available,
> at least since I first got newsgroup access in 1992. Do I need to spam
> you every day for years just in case one of those times you will
> respond?? How else can I learn when you are looking so that I might
> apply at that opportune time?
Let me just remind you that sending spam is illegal in some states...
Not to mention that this could be seen as harassment.
If someone doesn't give you a call, That's Life.
>>> Should I list somewhere in the printed resume
>>> where the online version with links is located (URL)?
>> I do that all the time. I also include urls to my
>> projects in case they want to check out.
>
> Expecting a person, reading a printed resume, to manually re-key one
> URL to get the online version of the resume, and then just click on
> various links to get the specific details, seems reasonable. Including
Hm, what if that person chooses to spend their time on other things?
Seems reasonable to me.
> multiple URLs directly in the printed resume, and expecting the reader
> to manually re-key each of them individually, seems not a good idea.
> Showing the URLs from the online resume in the printed resume, as a
> teaser to encourage the reader to manually key the one URL for the
> overall online resume then go click on those other URLs instead of
> re-keying them, seems plausable, although I wonder how many droid in HR
> departments or agencies would be intelligent enough to figure out doing
> that instead of manually re-keying all the separate URLs?
It's like advertising. 98% of that end up useless, because nobody
changes their buying behavior. Most resumes end up in the circular file
under the desk. Again, life.
> It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time I change
> the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume. I have to connect to my
> ISP and log in, which takes 3 minutes, then start up Kermit and tell it
> to receive some file, then tell VersaTerm to upload a file using
> Kermit, which takes about 2 minutes to set up and another 2 minutes to
> run, then quit Kermit and arrange to convert MS-DOS format upload to
> Unix format file, another 2 minutes, then ...
...
Not that I wasn't already laughing before this paragraph.
Robert, get a decent computer. Stop. Whining. Already. Oh, and while I
find some of your posts quite entertaining, others might not, so move it
somewhere else will you? (asking that much should be reasonable)
> How would I do that in any appropriate way? Should I start a new thread
> for each "cool" module of Lisp code I've written? What should I say?
> Here's what I've done using Lisp .... would anybody like to hire me to
> write similar software for you, or to configure my present software for
> your situation? I don't see anybody else doing that, so I'm not sure
> it'd be appropriate in this newsgroup.
Do you see other people create ages-long threads about looking for jobs
here? I'm not sure it's appropriate.
> I could compile a list of various Lisp software modules I've written,
> and post the complete list on a Web site, and post the URL here, but I
> don't see anybody else doing that either, and I doubt any employer
> would bother to follow the link to see what I've done. (How many
> employers have even bothered to follow the link to my Lisp resume?? I
> know how many have followed the link and then contacted me about
> employment doing similar work for them: ZERO.)
Well, after having seen your page a couple of months ago, I wouldn't
consider visiting it again. But that's just me. There are lots of
other websites out there.
>> Once in a while, some people *may* be interested. But just once
>> or twice aren't enough; people don't rememeber that. If a
>> person is interested in the idea posted here, and click the
>> link, and find your name once again after five or six times,
>> then you've finally shown your presense.
>
> Only if they happen to remember my name when they first see it, so that
> when they see it again they recognize it as the same person and start
> to see a pattern. If their memory for random names is as bad as mine,
Oh, I'm sure we will remember you :D
>> You can start building personal connections from there.
>
> In theory, since I've been posting here since early 1992, more than 13
> years ago, I should already have established at least one such personal
> connection. But in fact the number to date is zero. So your theory
> isn't valid. It just doesn't work.
I don't think it's a natural law. Also, at least you have people here
telling you to shut up about looking for jobs. That could be considered
personal connections, if you stretch the term a little.
>> If you keep producing good outcome, eventually people come to know
>> you.
>
> That doesn't work either. I've been producing good outcome since 1971,
Aw, that's too bad then.
> I continue to do good work, whenever I'm in the mood to work for free
> again just to accomplish something, but nobody ever cares or even
> notices. Just this past July and August I've been working on a new
> project, off and on when I'm in the mood for unpaid work and don't have
> anything urgent to do instead. It's basically a complete
> re-implementation of a utility I originally wrote in MacLisp in 1977.
That does ... what? No wonder nobody cares about your mysterious
utilities ;)
> The original used a crude hack at one point instead of a fully
> recursive method, to accomplish one of the sub-tasks. The new software
What subtasks?
> uses the the mathematically proper/complete fully recursive method
> instead, and is nicely structured into different modules that handle
> the various kinds of tasks needed. It's not yet reported in my list of
> recent achievements because it's not finished to the point where I can
> claim to have achieved it yet. At the moment I'm torn between spending
> the whole day responding to newsgroup articles and working on a new
Oh, if you don't spend all day here that's fine. I wouldn't mind.
> resume, or spending the whole day getting back into work on that
> re-impl project. As you can tell, today I chose newsgroup/resume work,
> so the re-impl work will have to wait until another day.
Ah :D
>> You've finally got the right moment, and succeeded to
>> interest me in this thread, enough to post replies.
>> You have to use such a rare occasion effectively.
>
> I'm not sure what I can do at this point. Do you have a suggestion?
I have one:
Take this off c.l.l :)
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
>>> If I need people to work for me, I directly contact them.
>> Frankly I don't believe you. I've been available to work for you,
>> with
>> 14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
>> boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
>> plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine, yet not once in all
>> these years did you contact me about working for you. Why not?
>
> Why didn't girl XY give me a call?
That would be girl XX no? I wouldn't expect much from a girl XY...
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Wanna go outside.
Oh, no! Help! I got outside!
Let me back inside!
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
>> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>>> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
>>>> If I need people to work for me, I directly contact them.
>>> Frankly I don't believe you. I've been available to work for you,
>>> with
>>> 14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
>>> boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
>>> plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine, yet not once in all
>>> these years did you contact me about working for you. Why not?
>> Why didn't girl XY give me a call?
>
> That would be girl XX no? I wouldn't expect much from a girl XY...
Sure :D I wasn't referring to genes, but using a free variable.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Sure :D I wasn't referring to genes, but using a free variable.
So you are interested in unbound free variables? That seems
sensible.
--
You should maybe check the chemical content of your breakfast
cereal. --- Bill Watterson
David Steuber wrote:
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
>> Sure :D I wasn't referring to genes, but using a free variable.
>
> So you are interested in unbound free variables? That seems
> sensible.
Yes. It should be mentioned that late binding (and call-by-name) have
their advantages too.
Sometimes they go out of scope (are they then garbage-collected? I don't
know, maybe it's all reference counting and someone else retains them),
so you should update the reference. With early binding (hardwired
relations?) this might not be possible.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
>> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>>> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
>>>> If I need people to work for me, I directly contact them.
>>> Frankly I don't believe you. I've been available to work for you,
>>> with
>>> 14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
>>> boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
>>> plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine, yet not once in all
>>> these years did you contact me about working for you. Why not?
>>
>> Why didn't girl XY give me a call?
>
> That would be girl XX no? I wouldn't expect much from a girl XY...
Actually, it's possible for a genotypically XY fetus to develop into a
female person. (I.e. with female secondary sexual characteristics. No
ovaries however, I don't think.)
-Peter
P.S. If I was KMP I could probably find some clever way to tie this
back to Lisp--something about how even simple classification schemes
(XX vs XY) still need to allow for a certain level of dynnamism of the
sort that Lisp offers and other languages don't. But I'm not, so I
won't try.
--
Peter Seibel * ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Gigamonkeys Consulting * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/
Practical Common Lisp * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
Peter Seibel wrote:
> P.S. If I was KMP I could probably find some clever way to tie this
> back to Lisp--something about how even simple classification schemes
> (XX vs XY) still need to allow for a certain level of dynnamism of the
> sort that Lisp offers and other languages don't. But I'm not, so I
> won't try.
Maybe X and Y are two namespaces. Then XX relates to Lisp1, because
there's one big namespace for everything, while XY has two different
namespaces.
This confirms that Scheme is for girls ;)
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Frankly I don't believe you. I've been available to work for you, with
> 14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
> boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
> plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine, yet not once in all
> these years did you contact me about working for you. Why not?
>
> Now answer my original (implied) question: How do I get you to see my
> resume or other qualifications when you need somebody to do Lisp
> programming for you, and how do I get you to consider me for the job?
> at least since I first got newsgroup access in 1992. Do I need to spam
> you every day for years just in case one of those times you will
> respond?? How else can I learn when you are looking so that I might
> apply at that opportune time?
Oh...
Careful Shiro, this guy has been known to stalk people.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time I change
> the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume. I have to connect to my
> ISP and log in, which takes 3 minutes, then start up Kermit and tell it
> to receive some file, then tell VersaTerm to upload a file using
> Kermit, which takes about 2 minutes to set up and another 2 minutes to
> run, then quit Kermit and arrange to convert MS-DOS format upload to
> Unix format file, another 2 minutes, then navigate the Web browser to
> that file and print, another 2 minutes, then use emacs to convert to
> MS-DOS format, another 2 minutes, then set Kermit to download, and set
> VersaTerm to receive, and wait for it to download, another 2 minutes,
> log back out and wait for host to disconnect, then quit VersaTerm
> because it can't be running at same time as FAX software. Let's say a
> total of 16 minutes without any checking to see if I was even using the
> correct version of the files. Add time for checking versions, for
> checking if I got the format correct in the WebPage resume, for
> renaming files to correct directories, for using FTP to upload WebPage
> resume to Tripod, for checking if it works from Tripod, and I'm up to a
> half hour if nothing went wrong. If one thing is wrong, and I have to
> repeat the cycle, that's another half hour.
There are many solutions to this pseudo-problem.
1. Get a clue
2. Use Emacs with ange-ftp
You have eloquently demonstrated why no employer wants you.
You cannot deal with the friction of the real world.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time I change
> the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume. I have to connect to my
> ISP and log in, which takes 3 minutes, then start up Kermit and tell it
> to receive some file, then tell VersaTerm to upload a file using
> Kermit, which takes about 2 minutes to set up and another 2 minutes to
> run, then quit Kermit and arrange to convert MS-DOS format upload to
> Unix format file, another 2 minutes, then navigate the Web browser to
> that file and print, another 2 minutes, then use emacs to convert to
> MS-DOS format, another 2 minutes, then set Kermit to download, and set
> VersaTerm to receive, and wait for it to download, another 2 minutes,
> log back out and wait for host to disconnect, then quit VersaTerm
> because it can't be running at same time as FAX software. Let's say a
> total of 16 minutes without any checking to see if I was even using the
> correct version of the files. Add time for checking versions, for
> checking if I got the format correct in the WebPage resume, for
> renaming files to correct directories, for using FTP to upload WebPage
> resume to Tripod, for checking if it works from Tripod, and I'm up to a
> half hour if nothing went wrong. If one thing is wrong, and I have to
> repeat the cycle, that's another half hour.
Now you say that you have decades of experience as a computer programmer
and this is your workflow for editing a text file ?
I begin to understand now why you have been unemployed for 24 years.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
······@bigpond.net.au wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time I change
> > the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume. I have to connect to my
> > ISP and log in, which takes 3 minutes, then start up Kermit and tell it
> > to receive some file, then tell VersaTerm to upload a file using
> > Kermit, which takes about 2 minutes to set up and another 2 minutes to
> > run, then quit Kermit and arrange to convert MS-DOS format upload to
> > Unix format file, another 2 minutes, then navigate the Web browser to
> > that file and print, another 2 minutes, then use emacs to convert to
> > MS-DOS format, another 2 minutes, then set Kermit to download, and set
> > VersaTerm to receive, and wait for it to download, another 2 minutes,
> > log back out and wait for host to disconnect, then quit VersaTerm
> > because it can't be running at same time as FAX software. Let's say a
> > total of 16 minutes without any checking to see if I was even using the
> > correct version of the files. Add time for checking versions, for
> > checking if I got the format correct in the WebPage resume, for
> > renaming files to correct directories, for using FTP to upload WebPage
> > resume to Tripod, for checking if it works from Tripod, and I'm up to a
> > half hour if nothing went wrong. If one thing is wrong, and I have to
> > repeat the cycle, that's another half hour.
>
>
>
> Now you say that you have decades of experience as a computer programmer
> and this is your workflow for editing a text file ?
>
> I begin to understand now why you have been unemployed for 24 years.
Yeah. Computer programmers are supposed to be problem _solvers_. I'd
hate to hear how long this guy takes to put on his shirt in the morning
...
--- Christopher Heckman
······@bigpond.net.au wrote:
>
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> >
> > It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time
> > I change the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume [..]
[talking to Robert Maas, as his post doesn't show up in sci.math]
If you're skint, which I imagine you are having not worked
for years, I'd start by exchanging your Mac for a "Wintel"
PC if anyone will take it, or beg borrow or steal one.
You can then keep your CV on a local disk (as I gather your
disk space is limited on the Mac), and easily find bootleg
copies of Microsoft Office on the Web to maintain it.
With regard to your CV, if you want employment in commercial
IT I'd lose all the stuff about academic papers, and Phds etc.
Worthy though it is, it's the kiss of death in commercial
recruitment.
Unless you're applying for permanent positions, or look as
old as Methusaleh, I'd also suggest knocking ten years off
your age and adjusting all the dates accordingly - try and
get rid of gaps, although your 24 year yawning chasm may
be somewhat harder to bridge!
(If they like the cut of your gib at interview, and your
skills are relevent, nobody checks all that stuff anyway,
unless you apply for a job at somewhere like the NSA ;-)
Also, you need to include the _times_ you have used each skill,
as HR droids are generally programmed to check these above all,
and _where_ you have worked. It looks like you'll need to make
up a few names for the latter, preferably companies that have
gone bust, for example Enron ;-)
Naturally the latest appointment should be genuine if possible,
as there is the remote chance an alert employer may check at
least one reference.
Frankly I don't think you have a chance to get into commercial
IT directly. Your only hope is to start with a lower-paid public
service job such as in a library or Government office, or even
nominally paid PC work for a charity.
There are also various web sites where clients post programming
requirements and would-be contractors vie in a Dutch auction to
undertake the work as a fixed-price contract.
One parting thought - lose the beard, long hair, and sandals,
if you own any of these ;-P
Best of luck anyway.
Cheers
John R Ramsden
P.S. I'd email CVs rather than FAX them. If you apply through
agencies they tend to transfer the salient details onto their
standard CV format anyway, so FAXing doesn't quite mean certain
rejection. But all the same it looks somewhat quaint these days,
and therefore probably makes a bad initial impression.
And another bloody one.. P*ss off, Robert.
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"Just give me one more wish. I can't get enough of this!"
New Order 'Slow Jam'
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > I have been asked to find a good Lisp programmer, or even I myself
> > have looked for one to subcontract my own project.
> Have you been blind to the several times I posted my Lisp resume online
> or mentionned that I had 10+ years Lisp experience and was looking for
> employment doing same but now for industry instead of university?
Take a serious look at yourself.
Then ask, "Would I hire myself ?"
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Personal connections (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-009@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
> once you got many years of experience, you're expected to have enough
> personal connections.
How is that possible? When I had a job, I was paid to write software,
not to socialize with co-workers thereby distracting them from the
work they were trying to do.
> If you haven't got them, probably you should start from making
> them...
That sounds like nice advice, but I have no idea how to succeed at
that. I've been trying to make contacts ever since I became unemployed
in 1991, but as far as I know I haven't acquired even one useful
contact yet. People in the same threads as me on newsgroups haven't
shown any interest in beocming my personal connections. People in
real-life have no common interests with me and have no interest in
arranging to see me again because they already have their own friends
with common interests and don't need somebody with no common interests
with them. Even the people in the computer-programming classes I was
taking 2003-05 already had enough friends and didn't need anybody new.
Why don't you join this forum:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/helprobertmaasfindemployment/
and coach me toward obtaining personal connections?
Use your limited bandwidth for something constructive,
rather than waste everybody else's please, Robert.
Follow-Ups set appropriately.
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"I know what I want but I just don't know ..how to go about gettin' it."
Jimi Hendrix 'Manic Depression'
Since this is a general comment about programming, independent of
language, followups set to comp.programming only.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
>>once you got many years of experience, you're expected to have enough
>>personal connections.
>
>
> How is that possible? When I had a job, I was paid to write software,
> not to socialize with co-workers thereby distracting them from the
> work they were trying to do.
I think this embodies a basic misconception. A programming team can be
much more effective than its members would be working in isolation.
People tend to communicate better with people they know than with total
strangers. Socializing facilitates exchanges of information and mutual
aid. The benefit in "whole greater than sum of the parts" effects of
getting to know colleagues often outweighs the costs.
Many programming and engineering managers understand this. For example,
I've known managers discussing proposed office space layouts to treat
spaces that support informal, casual conversation as an important design
feature. They plan activities, such as a weekly "donut hour", for the
purpose of getting random individuals to talk to each other.
Of course signals, such as closed office doors, are needed to get peace
and quiet when needed, but that should not be all the time.
Patricia
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: "Shiro Kawai" <···········@gmail.com>
>> once you got many years of experience, you're expected to have enough
>> personal connections.
>
> How is that possible? When I had a job, I was paid to write software,
> not to socialize with co-workers thereby distracting them from the
> work they were trying to do.
You guys didn't eat lunch?
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: What's "lunch"?? (was: Personal connections)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep05-007@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> You guys didn't eat lunch?
I don't know what you mean by "lunch" in that context. My work
situation wasn't like high school when we had a class from 8-9 then
another class from 9-10 then another class from 10-11 then another
class from 11-12 then a less-than-one-hour break when the cafeteria was
serving **LUNCH** which was the only food available all day there, then
another class from <13-<14 then another class from <14-<15. At work at
Stanford IMSSS, we had flexible hours. Except when there was a
scheduled meeting, we came to work whenever we could, and worked as
late into the night as we felt like, except in the Winter when the
steam plant was turned off at a certain time and my office, with bay
windows, got unbearably cold within about 10-20 minutes after
steam-off. Whenever one of us got hungry, we logged out, locked our
office, and went somewhere nearby to get a snack, then came back. The
nearest food place was some vending machines across the street in
another building. The burritos, with microwave oven, were usually the
best food available. I never once saw a co-worker there at the same
time I was there, and only rarely saw some stranger from another
building there. When I went to get food from the vending machines, I
didn't bother to give my eating-time a specific name such as "lunch".
Obviously your question is meaningless in regard to socializing with
co-workers, the topic of this sub-thread.
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > You guys didn't eat lunch?
>
> I don't know what you mean by "lunch" in that context. My work
> situation wasn't like high school when we had a class from 8-9 then
> another class from 9-10 then another class from 10-11 then another
> class from 11-12 then a less-than-one-hour break when the cafeteria was
> serving **LUNCH** which was the only food available all day there, then
> another class from <13-<14 then another class from <14-<15. At work at
> Stanford IMSSS, we had flexible hours. Except when there was a
> scheduled meeting, we came to work whenever we could, and worked as
> late into the night as we felt like, except in the Winter when the
> steam plant was turned off at a certain time and my office, with bay
> windows, got unbearably cold within about 10-20 minutes after
> steam-off. Whenever one of us got hungry, we logged out, locked our
> office, and went somewhere nearby to get a snack, then came back. The
> nearest food place was some vending machines across the street in
> another building. The burritos, with microwave oven, were usually the
> best food available. I never once saw a co-worker there at the same
> time I was there, and only rarely saw some stranger from another
> building there. When I went to get food from the vending machines, I
> didn't bother to give my eating-time a specific name such as "lunch".
> Obviously your question is meaningless in regard to socializing with
> co-workers, the topic of this sub-thread.
So, when you got hungry, why didn't you ask one of your coworkers if
they wanted to go get something to eat in the cafeteria or sub shop with
you? No one forced you to eat alone, you could have gotten other to go
along with you.
When I worked in a software engineering job, we also worked flexible
hours, but a bunch of us usually went out to lunch together anyway.
Finally, there are other ways to socialize at work. Don't you ever go
into your colleague's office/cube to discuss a problem you're having?
Also, I know you said "I wasn't paid to socialize, I was paid to work",
but I've never been in a high-tech workplace where people just worked
continuously. Don't you ever take breaks and shoot the breeze? Some
people go out for smoking breaks, some get coffee, some just pop out
into the hallways -- no company I've ever worked for has ever had a
problem with this, as long as you get your work done as well. The same
attitude that allows you to work flexible hours also allows you
flexibility in how you schedule your time *at* work.
Weren't there ever any social events at work, or organized by the
office? Many companies have formal holiday parties, departments often
have gift swaps at Xmas time, some groups have a monthly or quarterly
celebration of birthdays, summer picnics or outings, etc.
Or socializing with your coworkers *outside* of work hours -- at one of
my jobs, a bunch of us often went out to a movie on Friday night after
work. Or people throw parties and invite their colleagues.
If you didn't get to know your coworkers, it's really your own fault. I
admit that at some of my jobs I didn't really fit in socially, but I
never blamed the job.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Barry Margolin said:
> In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>
>> > From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>> > You guys didn't eat lunch?
>>
>> I don't know what you mean by "lunch" in that context.
<snip>
> So, when you got hungry, why didn't you [...]
I am beginning to think that Mr Maas has been gently trolling us. He's
actually got us to the point where he can say "I don't know what you mean
by 'lunch'" and still have some of us take him seriously!
--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/2005
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:27:01 +0000 (UTC), Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Barry Margolin said:
>> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>>> > From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>>> > You guys didn't eat lunch?
>>>
>>> I don't know what you mean by "lunch" in that context.
...
>> So, when you got hungry, why didn't you [...]
>
> I am beginning to think that Mr Maas has been gently trolling us.
Ya' THINK SO?
ShhEEEsh! I've been trying to beat down his last 20(?)
posts before all the hopeless, helpful, sod's fall for
his latest effort. The occasional one I miss draws yet
more suckers.
To Robert. I tip my hat. You are an *excellent* troll.
And if the rest of you people INSIST on conitinuing threads
of this nature, please learn to set follow-ups to a SINGLE
group.
[ Follow-Ups to this post set to alt.kook ONLY ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"I don't wanna' be like other people are. Don't wanna' own a key, don't
wanna' wash my car.."
New Order 'Turn My Way'
Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Barry Margolin said:
>
>
>>In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
>> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>>>>You guys didn't eat lunch?
>>>
>>>I don't know what you mean by "lunch" in that context.
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>So, when you got hungry, why didn't you [...]
>
>
> I am beginning to think that Mr Maas has been gently trolling us. He's
> actually got us to the point where he can say "I don't know what you mean
> by 'lunch'" and still have some of us take him seriously!
>
shhhhh. This is how I assess Lispniks. Anyone dumb enough not to have
Maas in their killfile for at least two years goes right in my circular
file. Bagged a couple of Lisp legends this past week, Garret and
Margolin. Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
* retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
receiver ever.
kt
In article <·······················@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> shhhhh. This is how I assess Lispniks. Anyone dumb enough not to have
> Maas in their killfile for at least two years goes right in my circular
> file. Bagged a couple of Lisp legends this past week, Garret and
> Margolin. Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
I don't have REM in my killfile, but I've been trying to kill all these
threads. The problem is that the subject lines keep changing, so they
show up again. Killfiling REM wouldn't help, since other people's
replies still show up.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:35:20 -0400, <······@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>
> In article <·······················@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> shhhhh. This is how I assess Lispniks. Anyone dumb enough not to have
>> Maas in their killfile for at least two years goes right in my circular
>> file. Bagged a couple of Lisp legends this past week, Garret and
>> Margolin. Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>
> I don't have REM in my killfile, but I've been trying to kill all these
> threads. The problem is that the subject lines keep changing, so they
> show up again. Killfiling REM wouldn't help, since other people's
> replies still show up.
Even killfiling a name doesn't help, the troll likes many gmane.com
mailboxes. His syntax remains the same, even as names rotate around
the world. Something based on the Bayesian email spam filters might
work out, or some sort of syntaxical analyzer.
The same tired questions appearing from a gmane.com email address, can
be expected to be followed by some tirade...and when no one here takes
the bait, the troll will play both sides for awhile until the hook is
set. Seems like a lot of work...I wonder what set it off and keeps it
burning for so long.
--
Program A uses CLOS, Program B is implemented with structs, leading
to a fourfold increase in execution speed. --J. B. Heimatseiten
GP lisper wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:35:20 -0400, <······@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>In article <·······················@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
>> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>shhhhh. This is how I assess Lispniks. Anyone dumb enough not to have
>>>Maas in their killfile for at least two years goes right in my circular
>>>file. Bagged a couple of Lisp legends this past week, Garret and
>>>Margolin. Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>>
>>I don't have REM in my killfile, but I've been trying to kill all these
>>threads. The problem is that the subject lines keep changing, so they
>>show up again. Killfiling REM wouldn't help, since other people's
>>replies still show up.
>
>
> Even killfiling a name doesn't help,
Nonsense. :) Works fine, except this time around too many serious
usenetters got sucked into the troll. I think cross-posting helped.
the troll likes many gmane.com
> mailboxes. His syntax remains the same, even as names rotate around
> the world. Something based on the Bayesian email spam filters might
> work out, or some sort of syntaxical analyzer.
>
> The same tired questions appearing from a gmane.com email address, can
> be expected to be followed by some tirade...and when no one here takes
> the bait, the troll will play both sides for awhile until the hook is
> set. Seems like a lot of work...I wonder what set it off and keeps it
> burning for so long.
>
All the gasoline-soaked Lispniks lying around on the floor in here.
And the sprinkler system was off. Namely, people intelligent enough to
realize the troll is playing with their compassion. Nice way not to set
off the troll detectors, btw.
--
Kenny
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>> Even killfiling a name doesn't help,
>
> Nonsense. :) Works fine, except this time around too many serious
> usenetters got sucked into the troll. I think cross-posting helped.
Hmm, your comment made me come up with a solution to automatically
kill all these threads :-)
Now maybe I can read c.l.l. again, the last few weeks I've been
so busy skipping the troll threads that I missed most of the good
stuff.
--
(espen)
Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
> Hmm, your comment made me come up with a solution to automatically
> kill all these threads :-)
(heh, works fine - it even skipped my own article :-))
--
(espen)
I for one think Robert Maas's rants, although off-topic, are hilarious
in their own way. He's not some kook claiming Einstein is wrong. Many
of Robert's oddities are an extreme amplification of many quirks
"normal" people often have: limiting beliefs, failure rationalization,
hostility to criticism
Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
> Now maybe I can read c.l.l. again, the last few weeks I've been
> so busy skipping the troll threads that I missed most of the good
> stuff.
IMO that's the worst problem with trolls like Maas: he not only makes
it hard for *me* to find the interesting content, but for everyone to,
thus reducing the amount of the good stuff, in an aweful trolly whiny
cycle. In case anyone's curious why I'm just consistently nasty to
him, there ya go. My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
ends of that equation again.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
On 07 Sep 2005 11:28:49 -0700, ···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas
F. Burdick) wrote:
>Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
>
>> Now maybe I can read c.l.l. again, the last few weeks I've been
>> so busy skipping the troll threads that I missed most of the good
>> stuff.
>
>IMO that's the worst problem with trolls like Maas: he not only makes
>it hard for *me* to find the interesting content, but for everyone to,
>thus reducing the amount of the good stuff, in an aweful trolly whiny
>cycle. In case anyone's curious why I'm just consistently nasty to
>him, there ya go. My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
>ends of that equation again.
Then, why so many people respond to him and in most cases with
multi-page essays?...
A.L.
A.L. <············@kalabambuko.com> writes:
> On 07 Sep 2005 11:28:49 -0700, ···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas
> F. Burdick) wrote:
>
> >Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
> >
> >> Now maybe I can read c.l.l. again, the last few weeks I've been
> >> so busy skipping the troll threads that I missed most of the good
> >> stuff.
> >
> >IMO that's the worst problem with trolls like Maas: he not only makes
> >it hard for *me* to find the interesting content, but for everyone to,
> >thus reducing the amount of the good stuff, in an aweful trolly whiny
> >cycle. In case anyone's curious why I'm just consistently nasty to
> >him, there ya go. My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
> >ends of that equation again.
>
> Then, why so many people respond to him and in most cases with
> multi-page essays?...
Huh? The form of what you said appears to be disagreeing with me, but
the content agrees with me completely. Yes, many people respond to
him, and in most cases with multi-page essays. That's the problem. A
simple "go away" would be much better. Failing that, an Erik-style
essay of pure acid would be okay as well.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
> Failing that, an Erik-style essay of pure acid would be okay as
> well.
I've never seen anyone live up to Erik's example. It is a real shame
that Erik does not post to cll anymore.
--
You should maybe check the chemical content of your breakfast
cereal. --- Bill Watterson
A.L. wrote:
> On 07 Sep 2005 11:28:49 -0700, ···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas
> F. Burdick) wrote:
>
>
>>Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Now maybe I can read c.l.l. again, the last few weeks I've been
>>>so busy skipping the troll threads that I missed most of the good
>>>stuff.
>>
>>IMO that's the worst problem with trolls like Maas: he not only makes
>>it hard for *me* to find the interesting content, but for everyone to,
>>thus reducing the amount of the good stuff, in an aweful trolly whiny
>>cycle. In case anyone's curious why I'm just consistently nasty to
>>him, there ya go. My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
>>ends of that equation again.
>
>
> Then, why so many people respond to him and in most cases with
> multi-page essays?...
Because until just recently no one was telling them to shut the fuck up.
So they kept on telling REM to shut the fuck up. Now most of the
REM-derived noise in here seems to be people discussing why people don't
stop responding to REM. Like you just did. Now if you would just shut
the fuck up...
:)
--
Kenny
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
Goddamn it Kenny, stop responding to these troll threads and shut up!
Go write some code or something. Having Verrazano do it for you
doesn't count.
:)
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> Goddamn it Kenny, stop responding to these troll threads and shut up!
> Go write some code or something.
OK. And while we are giving each other assignments, go check out:
http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-sockets/
...and tell me if you think this has been achieved:
> Project Title
> Lisp Sockets
>
> Synopsis
> One of the Great Complaints about Lisp is it's lack of standard sockets. As Lisp was born before the Internet became a big deal sockets did not make it into the CL standard. The current status of Lisp sockets is every Lisp has it's own implementation and various "universal" socket libraries go through each implementation's socket library. The Lisp Sockets project exists to make open source projects more shareable, by eliminating an implementation dependency by erasing this black mark from the history of Lisp. The proposal is to create single socket library with a standard interface for all Lisp implementations in all environments. This will be accomplished by using a portable OS FFI (Foreign Function Interface) to gain access to native C socket libraries. The particular FFI used will be Hello-C. [1] Hello-C is a Lisp project which allows Lisp code to include C headers and link seamlessly with C libraries. Here it will be used to write an interface directly to BSD sockets
on Unix, Winsock on win32, and either BSD sockets or native OSX sockets on OSX.
>
> Deliverables
> At the completion of this project Lisp will have a truly universal socket library with an interface similar to that of BSD sockets. This is critical to Lisp so that programmers do not have to worry about system specific features. Programmers will be able to write network driven applications in Lisp easily and deploy them across all platforms without modification.
>
> Project Details
> This project will involve defining a standard socket interface, independent of operating system and Lisp implementation. This interface will in turn integrate with the various system's socket interface with the help of Hello-C. Interfacing with the various API's will also require this project to transparently handle any/all implementation specific idiosyncrasies in order to provide a truly universal socket library. Because of differences between various current socket interfaces (and theoretical future socket implementations), Lisp sockets will offer a lowest common denominator socket interface for true system transparency. Lisp Sockets will also offer an interface to possible platform specific features/bugs for easier system specific integration with legacy code.
>
> Project Schedule
> In many ways this project has already begun. I have gotten the go ahead for this project from NYCLisp [2] mentor Kenny Tilton [3] and we have begun to flesh out the details. The following areas roughly corresponds to two week periods of work that will be completed in order to achieve truly system transparent sockets.
>
> - API
> - Regression Test
> - CLisp + NetBSD
> - Expansion and testing to other Unix-like systems
> - AllegroCL + win32
>
I am lead mentor on this one and have to give Google a report. The
student says he is still working on it. Pens were supposed to be down on
September 1 but we have the option of giving him another two weeks. Not
sure there is enough to justify that.
> Having Verrazano do it for you
> doesn't count.
VZN is totally killing my LOC count. :)
--
Kenny
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:47:50 GMT, <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>>
>> Goddamn it Kenny, stop responding to these troll threads and shut up!
>> Go write some code or something.
>
> OK. And while we are giving each other assignments, go check out:
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-sockets/
Clearly, nothing useful has been achieved. However, you needed a real
pro to pull off this one in the allotted time. Even a cleanup of
trivial-sockets would have gotten further....
--
Program A uses CLOS, Program B is implemented with structs, leading
to a fourfold increase in execution speed. --J. B. Heimatseiten
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> > Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> >
> > Goddamn it Kenny, stop responding to these troll threads and shut up!
> > Go write some code or something.
>
> OK. And while we are giving each other assignments, go check out:
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-sockets/
>
> ...and tell me if you think this has been achieved:
Yikes, it's not even close. The horribly unlispy and nearly unsable
interface aside, there's just not much there. What little is
completed is just UDP datagrams, which are not actually useful for
most purposes. You can't use this to write a simple email or http
client, nor does it look like that's going to happen anytime soon.
> I am lead mentor on this one and have to give Google a report. The
> student says he is still working on it. Pens were supposed to be down on
> September 1 but we have the option of giving him another two weeks. Not
> sure there is enough to justify that.
If what's there is the result of two week's work, then I'd guess that
in another two he could probably SOCK_STREAM communication (which is
what sockets are used for 99% of the time). I have no idea if any of
this will work on Win32 as-is (I'm not sure how close WinSock is to
the BSD interface). However, in order to have useful sockets for
Lisp, you need to be able to get a Lisp stream that corresponds to the
socket. That means using Gray streams, which I see no mention of, so
I'm guessing the author doesn't know how to do that. It's not magic,
but the work left to do is much much more than what's been done
already.
As a recommendation to anyone else who wants to attempt a project like
this: sb-bsd-sockets is a nice Lisp binding to the BSD sockets
interface. It's SBCL-specific, but not so deeply. Making it portable
would be mostly a matter of porting sb-grovel to some portable FFI
layer, and making it use Gray streams instead of SBCL-specific stream
code.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
> ends of that equation again.
Didn't someone mention that Erik was also mental and on disability.
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>
> > My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
> > ends of that equation again.
>
> Didn't someone mention that Erik was also mental and on disability.
Possibly one of his victims. You got a cite for that?
--
You should maybe check the chemical content of your breakfast
cereal. --- Bill Watterson
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> Espen Vestre <·····@vestre.net> writes:
>
>
>>Now maybe I can read c.l.l. again, the last few weeks I've been
>>so busy skipping the troll threads that I missed most of the good
>>stuff.
>
>
> IMO that's the worst problem with trolls like Maas: he not only makes
> it hard for *me* to find the interesting content, but for everyone to,
> thus reducing the amount of the good stuff, in an aweful trolly whiny
> cycle. In case anyone's curious why I'm just consistently nasty to
> him, there ya go. My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
> ends of that equation again.
>
Fool! Plenty of people are excoriating REM. That is part of the problem,
and it was all of the problem in the days for which you long.
--
Kenny
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950
···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
> cycle. In case anyone's curious why I'm just consistently nasty to
> him, there ya go. My kingdom for Erik to return and help with both
> ends of that equation again.
As if that would help anyone else than those wanting to barbequeue
their marshmallows :-(
--
(espen)
GP lisper <········@CloudDancer.com> writes:
> Seems like a lot of work...I wonder what set it off and keeps it
> burning for so long.
Most trolls don't know what they are.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Nobody can fix the economy. Nobody can be trusted with their finger
on the button. Nobody's perfect. VOTE FOR NOBODY.
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:35:20 -0400, Barry Margolin
<······@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <·······················@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> shhhhh. This is how I assess Lispniks. Anyone dumb enough not to have
>> Maas in their killfile for at least two years goes right in my circular
>> file. Bagged a couple of Lisp legends this past week, Garret and
>> Margolin. Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>
>I don't have REM in my killfile, but I've been trying to kill all these
>threads. The problem is that the subject lines keep changing, so they
>show up again. Killfiling REM wouldn't help, since other people's
>replies still show up.
It helps. Fewer people reading the junk means fewer replies to it.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
··························@att.net
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:35:20 -0400, Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article <·······················@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>> shhhhh. This is how I assess Lispniks. Anyone dumb enough not to have
>> Maas in their killfile for at least two years goes right in my circular
>> file. Bagged a couple of Lisp legends this past week, Garret and
>> Margolin. Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
> I don't have REM in my killfile, but I've been trying to kill all these
> threads. The problem is that the subject lines keep changing, so they
> show up again. Killfiling REM wouldn't help, since other people's
> replies still show up.
If you were using Gnus, you could just type
L r r p C-a C-k <······@Yahoo.Com> RET
to kill replies to REM.
'course, if you're not using Gnus you deserve what you get :-)
--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good,
you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
-- Howard Aiken
(setq reply-to
(concatenate 'string "Paul Foley " "<mycroft" '(··@) "actrix.gen.nz>"))
Paul Foley <···@below.invalid> (http://public.xdi.org/=pf) writes:
> If you were using Gnus,
I find that just `L R' usually does the trick.
That's shorthand for "Lower score by default amount on substring
matches against the References header." Or, paraphrasing, kill all
follow-ups to this article.
--
Steven E. Harris
Paul Foley <···@below.invalid> (http://public.xdi.org/=pf) writes:
> If you were using Gnus, you could just type
>
> L r r p C-a C-k <······@Yahoo.Com> RET
>
> to kill replies to REM.
>
>
> 'course, if you're not using Gnus you deserve what you get :-)
As a casual user of Gnus I had no idea such a command existed or how I
would remember such a thing. Currently I am slowly working through
the Emacs Lisp reference manual to get a deeper understanding of Emacs
so I can write a few extensions of my own. I don't know if the Gnus
info manual has as many pages, but it sure isn't small!
I still consider myself a casual Emacs user.
--
You should maybe check the chemical content of your breakfast
cereal. --- Bill Watterson
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: [OT] Jerry Rice (was: What's "lunch"?? (was: Personal connections))
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep07-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com>
> Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
> * retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
> receiver ever.
He played a game, while people watched. He was very good at his one
role (catching passes) in playing that game (American scrimmage
football), but that's not anything useful. Did he ever do anything
significantly useful in his whole life so-far? If so, what? Did he ever
solve a previously unsolved math problem, or devise a new algorithm for
solving a practical problem by use of computer, or devise a utility
that make some kind of useful work more efficient, or discover a new
kind of plant or fungus with medicinal properties, or capture a
terrorist responsible for the 9/11 attack on NYC, or jury-rig some
onboard equipment to save three astronauts after an explosion onboard
the return-from-moon capsule, or talk a 13-yr-old out of committing
suicide, or hold up a beam to prevent roof collapse after a coal-mine
explosion so that others could escape, or port Lisp or Java to a new
platform, or anything else majorly useful??
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> From: Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com>
>> Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>> * retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
>> receiver ever.
>
> He played a game, while people watched. He was very good at his one
> role (catching passes) in playing that game (American scrimmage
> football), but that's not anything useful. Did he ever do anything
> significantly useful in his whole life so-far? If so, what? Did he ever
> solve a previously unsolved math problem, or devise a new algorithm for
> solving a practical problem by use of computer, or devise a utility
> that make some kind of useful work more efficient, or discover a new
> kind of plant or fungus with medicinal properties, or capture a
> terrorist responsible for the 9/11 attack on NYC, or jury-rig some
> onboard equipment to save three astronauts after an explosion onboard
> the return-from-moon capsule, or talk a 13-yr-old out of committing
> suicide, or hold up a beam to prevent roof collapse after a coal-mine
> explosion so that others could escape, or port Lisp or Java to a new
> platform, or anything else majorly useful??
Let's be a little cynic; he did something very useful: he captived the
attention of a mob of millions who didn't think of coming to your
house and rape and steal you, thus leaving you time and peace of
spirit to do your job.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Until real software engineering is developed, the next best practice
is to develop with a dynamic system that has extreme late binding in
all aspects. The first system to really do this in an important way
is Lisp. -- Alan Kay
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] Jerry Rice
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep08-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com>
> Let's be a little cynic; he did something very useful: he captived the
> attention of a mob of millions who didn't think of coming to your
> house and rape and steal you, thus leaving you time and peace of
> spirit to do your job.
So that's all you can think of that he ever did useful, basically turn
children and teens and young adults into couch potatoes, so they'd get
too fat to commit crimes (which requiries running from police, jumping
fences, etc., difficult to do if you're 300 pounds overweight and can
barely even commute between the couch and the refrigerator or
bathroom)?
I would have been satisfied if he had a hobby on the side, which was
made public, specifically that he liked to write software, and even had
a Web site with some of his software for display, which might have
encouraged his fans to try it themselves, or that he enjoyed reading
science journals to learn some of the latest knowledge being
discovered, which might have encouraged his fans to go to the public
library and browse a few science journals themselves and maybe learn
something other than sports trivia. Just think of what could have
happened if he discovered Lisp and really liked it and started making
it known that Lisp is the best programming language in the world, and
10% of his fans tried Lisp themselves, and half of those liked it too,
and told their friends and siblings, half of which liked it too, and so
on and so on and so on.
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
>>>From: Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com>
>>>Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>>>* retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
>>>receiver ever.
>>
>>He played a game, while people watched. He was very good at his one
>>role (catching passes) in playing that game (American scrimmage
>>football), but that's not anything useful. Did he ever do anything
>>significantly useful in his whole life so-far? If so, what? Did he ever
>>solve a previously unsolved math problem, or devise a new algorithm for
>>solving a practical problem by use of computer, or devise a utility
>>that make some kind of useful work more efficient, or discover a new
>>kind of plant or fungus with medicinal properties, or capture a
>>terrorist responsible for the 9/11 attack on NYC, or jury-rig some
>>onboard equipment to save three astronauts after an explosion onboard
>>the return-from-moon capsule, or talk a 13-yr-old out of committing
>>suicide, or hold up a beam to prevent roof collapse after a coal-mine
>>explosion so that others could escape, or port Lisp or Java to a new
>>platform, or anything else majorly useful??
>
>
> Let's be a little cynic; he did something very useful: he captived the
> attention of a mob of millions who didn't think of coming to your
> house and rape and steal you, thus leaving you time and peace of
> spirit to do your job.
>
Pascal, what part of "shut the fuck up!" do you not understand?
Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go do something useful and talk
a 13 year-old fungus into committing suicide.
:)
--
Kenny
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film
"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: [OT] Jerry Rice (was: What's "lunch"?? (was: Personal connections))
Date:
Message-ID: <87y867s08v.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> He played a game, while people watched. He was very good at his one
> role (catching passes) in playing that game (American scrimmage
> football), but that's not anything useful.
> onboard equipment to save three astronauts after an explosion onboard
> the return-from-moon capsule, or talk a 13-yr-old out of committing
> suicide, or hold up a beam to prevent roof collapse after a coal-mine
> explosion so that others could escape,
Go away Robert Maas.
Stop trolling.
(Does anyone object to my adding to the noise? No? Okay then...)
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>
> * retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
> receiver ever.
Well, in my opinion, "player", not "reciever". I think part of the
impressive part of Rice is how he *did* overcome age for so long. By
the time he was playing for the Raiders he was already well over the
hill. But he killed it as a Raider -- physically he was slipping, but
his game didn't, I mean in 2002 he was bringing 88 back. He used both
his brain and his body, and he did outsmart old age for a while.
Eventually we all succumb, but it's interesting to look at those who
don't go so quickly. I mean, look at old retired lawyers who are
still on top of it; they tend to be both physically active *and* still
working. I don't know about y'all, but I plan on still trying to
solve CS problems all my life, and I'mma still make it to the gym and
work with my hands.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> (Does anyone object to my adding to the noise? No? Okay then...)
>
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>>
>>* retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
>>receiver ever.
>
>
> Well, in my opinion, "player", not "reciever".
Gosh, wouldn't a QB have to be the greatest player? Montana or Fahvre (sp?)?
I think part of the
> impressive part of Rice is how he *did* overcome age for so long.
And with Roger Clemens and Lance Armstrong we see an incredible work
ethic, an off-season training regimen that would make other players cry.
Coincidence? I think not!
By
> the time he was playing for the Raiders he was already well over the
> hill. But he killed it as a Raider -- physically he was slipping, but
> his game didn't, I mean in 2002 he was bringing 88 back. He used both
> his brain and his body, and he did outsmart old age for a while.
> Eventually we all succumb, but it's interesting to look at those who
> don't go so quickly. I mean, look at old retired lawyers who are
> still on top of it; they tend to be both physically active *and* still
> working. I don't know about y'all, but I plan on still trying to
> solve CS problems all my life, and I'mma still make it to the gym and
> work with my hands.
>
Use it or lose it. :) Tai chi is good for old age because it is very
hard work but nice and slow. Builds bone strength as well as balance,
and a simple fall and broken bone often start a final decline.
--
Kenny
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film
"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> > (Does anyone object to my adding to the noise? No? Okay then...)
> > Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> >>Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
> >>* retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
> >>receiver ever.
> > Well, in my opinion, "player", not "reciever".
> Gosh, wouldn't a QB have to be the greatest player? Montana or Fahvre (sp?)?
Why should you privilege one particular position?
One thing some talking head mentioned the other day that struck me:
At every other full-time position, pick who you think the greatest of
all time is, and you have to admit that one could make a reasonable
*case* for at least one or two others (Payton/Brown, Montana/Unitas,
etc.) Is there anybody else even in the discussion at receiver?
That tells me we must consider substituting "player".
Michael
Michael Sullivan wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>
>>>(Does anyone object to my adding to the noise? No? Okay then...)
>
> > > Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>>>Well, even Jerry Rice* could not overcome old age...
>
>
>>>>* retiring after twenty years as the greatest (American) football
>>>>receiver ever.
>
>
>>>Well, in my opinion, "player", not "reciever".
>
>
>>Gosh, wouldn't a QB have to be the greatest player? Montana or Fahvre (sp?)?
>
>
> Why should you privilege one particular position?
Because they play so much greater a role in determining the outcome of a
gane than any other position. It is as if a baseball pitcher could pitch
every day. They would face every batter and determine one side of each
at-bat. The greatest hitter bats only 4-5 times a game. So think of it
as a weighting factor -- no one can overcome the weight of the QB role
by being such a great receiver. Besides, a good QB makes any receiver
look good, and Rice had two great QBs.
--
Kenny
Why Lisp? http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film
"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: What's "lunch"?? (was: Personal connections)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep07-001@Yahoo.Com>
>>> You guys didn't eat lunch?
> From: Richard Heathfield <·······@invalid.invalid>
> I am beginning to think that Mr Maas has been gently trolling us.
> He's actually got us to the point where he can say "I don't know what
> you mean by 'lunch'" and still have some of us take him seriously!
You're taking a fragment out of context. The context was my work at
Stanford. The situation was that I worked alone until I got hungry
enough to prompt me to stop work and lock up and go across the street
to get a vending-machine burrito, then back to work. There was no such
thing as standard meals at the same time every day, nothing that would
deserve a name such as "lunch". So in that context, the word "lunch" is
meaningless.
I suppose I could have just posted a criptic minimal answer to the
direct question (>>> quoted above): "I didn't." and left everyone
wondering what that was supposed to mean. But actually one of my
vending-machine snacks might qualify as "lunch" in the mind of whoever
asked that question, so I really don't know what the question was
supposed to mean in that context.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: What's "lunch"?? (was: Personal connections)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep06-002@Yahoo.Com>
Note: I'm currently seeking work, preferably programming in Lisp or Java.
> From: Barry Margolin <······@alum.mit.edu>
> when you got hungry, why didn't you ask one of your coworkers if they
> wanted to go get something to eat in the cafeteria or sub shop with
> you?
Your question has nothing to do with Java, so why are you posting it in
comp.lang.java.programmer? Where do you want me to answer your question?
> Don't you ever go into your colleague's office/cube to discuss a
> problem you're having?
We were specifically forbidden to do that.
> Some people go out for smoking breaks
I wouldn't want to be within 50 feet of somebody smoking. I get sick
from the smell.
> If you didn't get to know your coworkers, it's really your own fault.
Only one of my co-workers was in any way friendly toward me, and he
moved to San Francisco before the project was finished, so there was no
chance of maintaining social contact with him. Are you suggesting I
should have rummaged around the building harassing people who didn't
want anything social to do with me, repeatedly begging them to change
their attitude and become my friends? If somebody acted like they
didn't want anything personal to do with me, I left them alone. Was
that wrong?
If you have any further questions specific about me, why don't you join
my Yahoo! Group and ask the questions there, instead of posting the
questions to these newsgroups and expecting me to answer here?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/helprobertmaasfindemployment/
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:00:00 -0700, Robert Maas, see
> ...I left them alone. Was that wrong?
Given your personality, no. That was simply being decent.
Now why don't display that you still have some of that
decency remaining?
[ Follow-Ups set to alt.kook only ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"Tell your Mama, tell your Pa. I'm gonna send you back to Arkansas.."
Ray Charles 'What'd I Say'
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Note: I'm currently seeking work, preferably programming in Lisp or
> Java.
And a brilliant job you are doing.
> > From: Barry Margolin <······@alum.mit.edu>
> > when you got hungry, why didn't you ask one of your coworkers if they
> > wanted to go get something to eat in the cafeteria or sub shop with
> > you?
>
> Your question has nothing to do with Java, so why are you posting it in
> comp.lang.java.programmer? Where do you want me to answer your question?
Good grief, Pot! Could it be that you have cross-posted to the entire
comp.* hierarchy and Barry didn't notice and trim the Newsgroups
accordingly? Note that I'm only posting to cll.
> > Don't you ever go into your colleague's office/cube to discuss a
> > problem you're having?
>
> We were specifically forbidden to do that.
Perhaps only you were specifically forbidden to do that. If your real
life persona is anything like your usenet persona I would fully expect
people to actively avoid interacting with you whenever possible. I'm
only posting to let you know that this may be the case so that you can
practice a little introspection on yourself to see how you might
irritate people to the point of wishing that the bus you ride to the
library gets T-boned by a speeding train even if all the other
passengers are members of a kindergarten class on a field trip.
> > If you didn't get to know your coworkers, it's really your own fault.
>
> Only one of my co-workers was in any way friendly toward me, and he
> moved to San Francisco before the project was finished, so there was no
> chance of maintaining social contact with him. Are you suggesting I
> should have rummaged around the building harassing people who didn't
> want anything social to do with me, repeatedly begging them to change
> their attitude and become my friends? If somebody acted like they
> didn't want anything personal to do with me, I left them alone. Was
> that wrong?
Your posts have devolved into rummaging around usenet harassing people
who don't want anything social or professional to do with you,
repeatedly begging them to help you get a job. To top that all off,
when people are kind enough to not only read your long-winded posts
but also respond with useful advice, you go into some long tirade on
why you can't do this that and the other. You desperately need to
beaten about the head and neck with a L.A.R.T.
> If you have any further questions specific about me, why don't you join
> my Yahoo! Group and ask the questions there, instead of posting the
> questions to these newsgroups and expecting me to answer here?
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/helprobertmaasfindemployment/
Good luck with that. Now that you have a dedicated group expressly
on the topic of getting Robert Maas a job you don't need to post any
employment related ravings to usenet again.
--
You should maybe check the chemical content of your breakfast
cereal. --- Bill Watterson
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87oe7ii9ew.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Oracle was available, but only manually via keyboard/SQL interface,
> with no way to make tables or find out what tables were already in the
> database it connected to, hence no way to play with it either manually
> or via JDBC.
You can use Oracle PL/SQL from the "keyboard" to create
tables and query the tables in the database.
The relevant commands are:
CREATE TABLE
eg:
CREATE TABLE EMPLOYEE (
EMP_ID NUMBER(8),
LNAME VARCHAR2(30),
FNAME VARCHAR2(15),
HIRE_DT DATE,
SALARY NUMBER(8,2) )
PCTFREE 20
PCTUSED 50
STORAGE (
INITIAL 200K NEXT 200K
PCTINCREASE 0 MAXEXTENTS 50 )
TABLESPACE ts01
LOGGING ;
and
get_schema(GDA_CONNECTION_SCHEMA_TABLES)
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
<······@bigpond.net.au> writes:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
> > Oracle was available, but only manually via keyboard/SQL interface,
> > with no way to make tables or find out what tables were already in the
> > database it connected to, hence no way to play with it either manually
> > or via JDBC.
>
> You can use Oracle PL/SQL from the "keyboard" to create
> tables and query the tables in the database.
> The relevant commands are:
>
> CREATE TABLE
>
> eg:
> CREATE TABLE EMPLOYEE (
> EMP_ID NUMBER(8),
> LNAME VARCHAR2(30),
> FNAME VARCHAR2(15),
> HIRE_DT DATE,
> SALARY NUMBER(8,2) )
> PCTFREE 20
> PCTUSED 50
> STORAGE (
> INITIAL 200K NEXT 200K
> PCTINCREASE 0 MAXEXTENTS 50 )
> TABLESPACE ts01
> LOGGING ;
>
> and
>
> get_schema(GDA_CONNECTION_SCHEMA_TABLES)
>
Actually, thats just standard SQL, not PL/SQL. I would advise dropping
the storage, allocation, tablespace and logging commands - it can
cause problems if yo don't know what your doing, the dba probably
woldn't be impressed and for the level he is operating at, its just
another complication not required - let it just inherit the system
defaults. Also, it may or may ot work depending on whether his login
has the right privilages, such as create table etc.
Probably should mention that for development (i.e. not to be sold)
purposes, you can get a free copy of Oracle. The 10g version for Linux
is quite nice. Of course, I'm sure he won't be able to do any of this
as his position is so hopeless!
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Free Oracle (was: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much...))
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-004@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> for development (i.e. not to be sold) purposes, you can get a free
> copy of Oracle. The 10g version for Linux is quite nice.
This is the first I've ever heard of such. All the information I got
previously was that Oracle is the high-end commercial RDBS that hardly
anybody can afford and so there's no way they'd give it away for free.
If I ever can get the modem on my laptop working again, I might see
about downloading the free Oracle. Thanks for the clue, even though I
can't make any use of it at present.
Is there a free version that works on FreeBSD Unix?
If the whole things occupies less than ten megabytes, I could install
it on my personal shell account.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
>> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
>> for development (i.e. not to be sold) purposes, you can get a free
>> copy of Oracle. The 10g version for Linux is quite nice.
>
> This is the first I've ever heard of such. All the information I got
> previously was that Oracle is the high-end commercial RDBS that hardly
> anybody can afford and so there's no way they'd give it away for free.
Oracle has been available for testing purposes for free for several
years now. You can download it or (as I did a few years ago) ask them
for a CD and they'll ship one (or last did) for free. As far as I
understood the rules back then, this is for "test and evaluation" only.
> If I ever can get the modem on my laptop working again, I might see
> about downloading the free Oracle. Thanks for the clue, even though I
> can't make any use of it at present.
Make sure that laptop has a gig of free RAM or you won't have much fun
with 10g - Oracle is a _serious_ ressource hog. At a previous place of
employment, we ran an Oracle DB on a 4 CPU PA-RISC box with 16 GB of
RAM and that database wasn't _that_ big, just around 100 GB of
tablespace.
> Is there a free version that works on FreeBSD Unix?
> If the whole things occupies less than ten megabytes, I could install
> it on my personal shell account.
*ROTFLMAO*
When thinking about disk or memory sizes for Oracle you better forget
about counting in megabytes and go straight to gigabytes.
Regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Free Oracle (was: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much...))
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep05-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Alexander Schreiber <····@usenet.thangorodrim.de>
> Oracle has been available for testing purposes for free for several
> years now. You can download it or (as I did a few years ago) ask them
> for a CD and they'll ship one (or last did) for free.
Thanks for the info (below), so that I don't feel bad about not knowing
this until today, because I've never had access to any machine it'd run
on so I haven't lost any time due to not knowing about it until today.
> Make sure that laptop has a gig of free RAM ...
That's not possible with only 39 MB total extended memory.
> When thinking about disk or memory sizes for Oracle you better forget
> about counting in megabytes and go straight to gigabytes.
Idea dead, unless there's room on the UK server/shell system where I
got tentative access via ssh just a few days ago. I wonder if there's
any standard Unix/Linux system utility which would tell users the total
amount of RAM available to the CPU, so as to enable deciding whether
it's worth even trying to install free-trial-Oracle there?
Does Oracle support ODBC? If so, does any free version of Lisp provide
an ODBC interface?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> I wonder if there's
> any standard Unix/Linux system utility which would tell users the total
> amount of RAM available to the CPU, so as to enable deciding whether
> it's worth even trying to install free-trial-Oracle there?
"free". But if you don't know even this, it is probably not a good idea
trying to install Oracle :-)
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Free Oracle (was: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much...))
Date:
Message-ID: <87ek85cup7.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Is there a free version that works on FreeBSD Unix?
There is a Linux version.
> If the whole things occupies less than ten megabytes,
Around one gigabyte of space, from memory.
( It has been a few years since I used the free version )
> I could install
> it on my personal shell account.
Unlikely.
I think that you would need superuser access to install it.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
>> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> for development (i.e. not to
>> be sold) purposes, you can get a free copy of Oracle. The 10g
>> version for Linux is quite nice.
>
> This is the first I've ever heard of such. All the information I got
> previously was that Oracle is the high-end commercial RDBS that
> hardly anybody can afford and so there's no way they'd give it away
> for free. If I ever can get the modem on my laptop working again, I
> might see about downloading the free Oracle. Thanks for the clue,
> even though I can't make any use of it at present.
>
> Is there a free version that works on FreeBSD Unix? If the whole
> things occupies less than ten megabytes, I could install it on my
> personal shell account.
The temporary Java installation you'd need to do in order to run the
Oracle installer would consume _considerably_ more than 10MB.
And no, running it on a personal shell account on FreeBSD won't be an
option. The installer needs root access because it needs to set up
multiple Unix user IDs.
And no, there will never be any dimension in which Oracle would be
less than 10MB in size. It would prefer to have a gigabyte of RAM,
forget about disk.
You likely can't run Oracle on hardware wimpy enough that people would
throw the hardware away...
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" ·@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/
If we were meant to fly, we wouldn't keep losing our luggage.
for a list of cheap and free SQL engines see:
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/sqlvendors.html
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Free Oracle
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep05-004@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Christopher Browne <········@acm.org>
> The temporary Java installation you'd need to do in order to run the
> Oracle installer would consume _considerably_ more than 10MB.
JDK 1.2.1 is already installed on the FreeBSD Unix account. Would that
be sufficient already? (It's moot since I don't have a gigibate of disk
space available for Oracle itself, but I'm curious.)
> And no, running it on a personal shell account on FreeBSD won't be an
> option. The installer needs root access because it needs to set up
> multiple Unix user IDs.
So that's yet another reason I wouldn't be able to install it on my
personal account on my Unix ISP shell account. So the next time
somebody tells me I should learn Oracle, I can tell them to Fuck Off
not once but three times (disk, RAM, root).
So back on topic: Is there any employer who would hire me for an
entry-level position programming with Java or CommonLisp (CL) through
ODBC to Oracle which they already have installed on their monstrous
computer whose shell is accessible from here via TELNET or SSH? I've
never used Oracle, and can't ever until you hire me, but I already know
how to write Java/ODBC code that works equally well with MicroSoft
ACCESS and CloudScape/Derby, so I think I'm well qualified for an
entry-level Oracle position.
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" wrote:
>
...
> So back on topic: Is there any employer who would hire me for an
> entry-level position programming with Java or CommonLisp (CL) through
> ODBC to Oracle which they already have installed on their monstrous
> computer whose shell is accessible from here via TELNET or SSH? I've
> never used Oracle, and can't ever until you hire me, but I already know
> how to write Java/ODBC code that works equally well with MicroSoft
> ACCESS and CloudScape/Derby, so I think I'm well qualified for an
> entry-level Oracle position.
I don't think anybody will hire you approaching age 60 for any
entry-level position in a software field of that type. At that age you
should be well beyond "entry-level" and that you're looking for such a
position is indicative that there's a problem.
As I've said before I think you need to figure out how to use what you
were trained in.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: How to get paid to use my many programming skills? (was: Free Oracle)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep10-004@Yahoo.Com>
(Note: I'm still available for work programming, such as Lisp or Java.)
> From: Duane Bozarth <·········@swko.dot.net>
> I think you need to figure out how to use what you were trained in.
I was never trained in anything. I mostly just learned things on my
own, by practicing with whatever facilities were available (IBM 1620 +
card reader with Fortran With Format and SPS, IBM 360/50h + card reader
with Fortran IV and Watfor, IBM 1130 + card reader with Fortran IV,
PDP-10 + III terminals (and later also DataDisk terminals) with SAIL,
FAIL, and Stanford Lisp 1.6 (and later also ILISP = UCI-LISP), PDP-10
via ArpaNet/AmesTIP with MacLisp and MacSyma, IBM 370 + Wylbur with
Fortran IV and WatFiv, PDP-10 with MainSail, PDP-10 with SL and PSL,
Macintosh Plus with HyperCard and Pocket Forth and Sesame C and
Macintosh Allegro Common Lisp, Unix shells via VT100 dialup with GNU C
and CMUCL and J2SE and lots of other programming languages, Linux
laptop with J2EE I installed myself and GNU Emacs Lisp and BeanShell.
Generally I consulted reference manuals, and more recently
Web-accessible tutorials. Once in a long while somebody coached me a
little, such as when somebody suggested I try SAIL instead of the
cruddy Fortran they had, and when Hans Moravec told me how R.E.P.
works, and when somebody told me about the existance of MacSyma at
MIT-ML accessible via the ArpaNet. More recently I've occasionally
gotten stuck and asked for help on a newsgroup and gotten a useful
answer, such as when I was stuck trying to get PHP to work, and
somebody told me about .htaccess which I needed to set up to enable
PHP, after which I could then proceed to learn PHP from online
documentation without any further human help.
The recent classes I took (Visual Basic, Java, C++) weren't training,
they were just lecture plus homework assignments I had to do all by
myself (except for two group projects we were assigned, and a couple
times I needed extra help from the instructor, first what driver and
URL needed to use any RDBMS on the campus machine, which turned out to
be MicroSoft ACCESS via ODBC, after instructor tried to download and
install MySql and a couple others only to find that none of them would
work there due to various firewall protection and lack of root access,
and second which version of J2EE to install on my laptop which already
had J2SE 1.3.1 on it, and the answer was 1.3.1 instead of 1.4 as
originally instructed by syllabus, because only 1.3.1 would work
correctly with J2SE 1.3.1 already on my laptop; Note that my instructor
didn't know about CloudScape/Derby which was already included in the
J2EE that I had already downloaded at that point. I discovered that by
accident while researching Google, and checked and found indeed it was
already on my machine and worked just fine.).
So given the many skills I learned on my own, none of which are
sufficient for any jobs I've seen advertised any time in the past ten
years, I have no idea what jobs you meant by the remark I quoted above.
I already know how to use what I've taught myself. I just don't know
how to get paid for any of that use. So assuming you meant to say:
>>I think you need to figure out how to get paid to use what you taught yourself.
I have no idea how to do what you say. Please suggest how.
From: Duane Bozarth
Subject: Re: How to get paid to use my many programming skills? (was: Free Oracle)
Date:
Message-ID: <43234FA6.656C2F3@swko.dot.net>
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" wrote:
>
> (Note: I'm still available for work programming, such as Lisp or Java.)
> > From: Duane Bozarth <·········@swko.dot.net>
> > I think you need to figure out how to use what you were trained in.
>
> I was never trained in anything. ...
You claim you have a BS in Mathematics and have at least some
credentials (albeit quite dated) that you at least demonstrated some an
apptitude there. I have suggested several times that you attempt to
make use of what appear to be your strengths.
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:57:08 -0700, Robert Maas, see
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> (Note: I'm still available for work programming, such as Lisp or Java.)
Oh joy. The thought of working in a team with *you* on
the project would make me not take the job. And I *need*
the money.
Robert, these are not - get 'you a job' groups.
Please find some Java technical matters to discuss, or cease
posting c.l.j.programmer.
[ Follow-Ups set appropriately. ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"..and now you do what they want ya', ..now you're under control"
Rage Against the Machine 'Killing In The Name'
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Putnam winner unemployed for 20 years. Re: How to get paid to use my many programming skills? (was: Free Oracle)
Date:
Message-ID: <87oe70cm7y.fsf_-_@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> So given the many skills I learned on my own, none of which are
> sufficient for any jobs I've seen advertised any time in the past ten
> years,
> I already know how to use what I've taught myself. I just don't know
> how to get paid for any of that use. So assuming you meant to say:
> >>I think you need to figure out how to get paid to use what you taught yourself.
> I have no idea how to do what you say. Please suggest how.
Maas, you need to get your mental health issue sorted out
first. They are the biggest barrier to your employment.
BTW, I wonder if you are the biggest failure among the putnam
winners or are the other winners bozos too ....
From: Alf P. Steinbach
Subject: Re: How to get paid to use my many programming skills? (was: Free Oracle)
Date:
Message-ID: <4323a784.6269718@news.individual.net>
* Robert Maas:
> see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t:
Well, you don't exactly make it easy for anyone to contact you:
E-mail: ·······@Yahoo.Com with Subject field starting with the special
word ReSpam2002Jan08 -- Then immediately after sending me the e-mail, log
into my Web-alert system (username guest1, password free, unless you have
your own individual account), then click on button to see if I'm online,
and click on button to send me an online alert letting me know to look at
the e-mail you already sent.
> (Note: I'm still available for work programming, such as Lisp or Java.)
Why don't you contact a few companies in the vicinity of where you live.
Look neat, be nice, and just visit them.
Try to focus on what you can do for them (good technical problem solver, fast
learner, putnam winner etc.), and don't mention all that archaic technology...
> cruddy Fortran they had, and when Hans Moravec told me how R.E.P.
... and don't drop names like George Bush (or Hans Moravec) that causually in
mid-stream. That's darned _dumb_. You're begging for a job and don't want to
emphasize how far you've fallen. Of course it's difficult to get across what
you know without mentioning that. But the point is, what you know isn't
what's interesting to an employer, because all that's mostly old sh*t; the
important thing is your capacity for solving, working, and learning. Btw.,
don't use words like "cruddy" or "darned" or "sh*t". At least not at first.
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I've never used Oracle..
> ..so I think I'm well qualified for an entry-level Oracle position.
Right !!!!!!!!!!!
Maas, a lucrative career as a comedian awaits you !
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> So back on topic: Is there any employer who would hire me
just in case you didn't realize it already: this is not on topic for this
newsgroup. Perhaps the followup group can help you with your resumes.
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Followup set to comp.programming.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> So that's yet another reason I wouldn't be able to install it on my
> personal account on my Unix ISP shell account. So the next time
> somebody tells me I should learn Oracle, I can tell them to Fuck Off
> not once but three times (disk, RAM, root).
HP offers testdrive where you can evaluate their various platforms
with software, including Oracle. It's free to get a telnet account.
http://www.testdrive.hp.com/
> So back on topic: Is there any employer who would hire me for an
> entry-level position programming with Java or CommonLisp (CL) through
> ODBC to Oracle which they already have installed on their monstrous
> computer whose shell is accessible from here via TELNET or SSH? I've
> never used Oracle, and can't ever until you hire me, but I already know
> how to write Java/ODBC code that works equally well with MicroSoft
> ACCESS and CloudScape/Derby, so I think I'm well qualified for an
> entry-level Oracle position.
What you describe about Java/ODBC doens't count much in terms
of qualification. Since learning APIs is one of the easiest
part of the job, I'd rather seek for the right attitude towards
solving problems, rather than knowledge of particular technology,
as the qualification for an entry position. BTW, being good at
finding excuses not to do things earns a big negative score.
If you want your experience counted, I suggest to include how
much size your ODBC project was (approx. number of records,
number of transactions, number of users, years you maintained it,
etc), unless it was just a toy project. If you say you had
millions of records and dealt with tens of transactions per second,
for example, that counts. Even when it's a small size database,
if it was actively used by lots of users and you've maintaned
it for years, it counts.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> So that's yet another reason I wouldn't be able to install it on my
> personal account on my Unix ISP shell account. So the next time
> somebody tells me I should learn Oracle, I can tell them to Fuck Off
> not once but three times (disk, RAM, root).
Right. When someone suggests that you might need more (current) skills
and experience to get any computer job again, just tell them to fuck
off. I'm sure every potential employer will love you for that attitude!
Why confront your problems when you can use simple insults instead?
> So back on topic: Is there any employer who would hire me for an
> entry-level position programming with Java or CommonLisp (CL) through
> ODBC to Oracle which they already have installed on their monstrous
> computer whose shell is accessible from here via TELNET or SSH? I've
After you have *never* used Oracle? After you seem to have never
installed MySQL or PostgreSQL (or did you)? When there are loads of
students available that have used at least one of these, if not all of them?
> never used Oracle, and can't ever until you hire me, but I already know
> how to write Java/ODBC code that works equally well with MicroSoft
> ACCESS and CloudScape/Derby, so I think I'm well qualified for an
> entry-level Oracle position.
Right. I don't know what Cloudscape is, but Access isn't even SQL,
AFAIK. You really should forget about going into a job area where you
don't already have the current experience, as there's too much young
competition that does it better than you.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> I don't know what Cloudscape is, but Access isn't even SQL, AFAIK.
Access is a graphical programming tool that generates SQL.
You click on a button to toggle between viewing (or manually
editing) the SQL and drawing arrows between relations/attributes
to construct the query terms.
From: Joan
Subject: Re: Free Oracle (was: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much...))
Date:
Message-ID: <v4OdndaOQPtMPb3eRVn-uA@comcast.com>
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" <·······@Yahoo.Com>
wrote in message ······················@Yahoo.Com...
>> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
>> for development (i.e. not to be sold) purposes, you can get a
>> free
>> copy of Oracle. The 10g version for Linux is quite nice.
>
> This is the first I've ever heard of such. All the information
> I got
> previously was that Oracle is the high-end commercial RDBS that
> hardly
> anybody can afford and so there's no way they'd give it away
> for free.
> If I ever can get the modem on my laptop working again, I might
> see
> about downloading the free Oracle. Thanks for the clue, even
> though I
> can't make any use of it at present.
Yes it is free for developers, I downloaded it for windows xp and
it works fine.
My guess is that projects that use oracle are not simple things
that get
developed in a few days and that if the developer needs to buy a
copy of Oracle at
a high price to build a prototype, they might just as well use
another db instead.
>
> Is there a free version that works on FreeBSD Unix?
> If the whole things occupies less than ten megabytes, I could
> install
> it on my personal shell account.
From: Juha Laiho
Subject: Re: Free Oracle (was: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much...))
Date:
Message-ID: <dgk167$oam$3@ichaos.ichaos-int>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) said:
>> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
>> for development (i.e. not to be sold) purposes, you can get a free
>> copy of Oracle. The 10g version for Linux is quite nice.
Note, not just "not to be sold". It is "not to be used in a production
environment" -- and even the conditions for the development use
are rather strict; if I recall correctly, the Oracle instance is
not to be utilised by more than two persons (and this doesn't mean
simultaneous access; this means access at all -- f.ex. the limit
is "you and your boss", but not "you, a co-worker and your boss").
So, if you're building a web-application on top of this developer
Oracle, you can only have one tester in addition to yourself.
There's no technical limit to this, however - the limit is purely
contractual.
>This is the first I've ever heard of such. All the information I got
>previously was that Oracle is the high-end commercial RDBS that hardly
>anybody can afford and so there's no way they'd give it away for free.
Developer distributions for Oracle databases have been available for
download at Oracle Technet for at least three years now. I think
the available platforms are the same as for commercial distributions.
Note though, you may not get an up-to-date version, and updates and
patches are only available for customers with an existing support
contract.
>Is there a free version that works on FreeBSD Unix?
Not supported, at least. You could get it working with some kind
of Linux emulation environment on FBSD, but no guarantees.
>If the whole things occupies less than ten megabytes, I could install
>it on my personal shell account.
Hmm.. the download for Oracle 10gRel2 for Linux is a 600MB .zip file.
Then there's a few hundred more megs of auxiliary material. No,
Oracle is neither small nor lightweight -- and I'd guess many of
the most simple queries with just a handful of concurrent users
might run faster with some other DB engine. It's big databases,
huge amount of concurrent usage, and complex database schemas
combined with complex queries which get a benefit from Oracle.
And even there you need a DBA who knows his/her trade to keep it
running smoothly (ok, should be easier with the 9i/10g versions,
but was this way at least still with 8i versions). With default
installation/db setup at least 8i is far from fantastic.
--
Wolf a.k.a. Juha Laiho Espoo, Finland
(GC 3.0) GIT d- s+: a C++ ULSH++++$ ···@ L+++ E- ···@ N++ !K w !O !M V
PS(+) PE Y+ PGP(+) t- 5 !X R !tv b+ !DI D G e+ h---- r+++ y++++
"...cancel my subscription to the resurrection!" (Jim Morrison)
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> In the case of the NMR research, the paper was by my boss, whose name I
> don't remember, but based on a recent online search I believe it might
> have been Olav Jardetsky. I contributed my description, which his
> secretary re-wrote, or somesuch. I never saw the final copy of the
> paper. I was promised a re-print, but never got any. I have no idea
> what journal it might have been in.
With the additional name, I've been able to track down a candidate:
Biophysical Journal, Vol 24, 103-117, Copyright � 1978 by Biophysical
Society
ARTICLES
Magnetic relaxation analysis of dynamic processes in macromolecules in
the pico- to microsecond range
R King, R Maas, M Gassner, RK Nanda and WW Conover
A formalism based on the theory of Markov processes and suitable for the
analysis of multiple internal motions in macromolecules is presented.
Computer calculations of specific motional models for (13)C nuclear
magnetic resonance (NMR) relaxation, treated as special cases of the
proposed formalism, demonstrate the potential of this approach for
discriminating between different motional models on the basis of NMR
relaxation data.
Although this does not mention Jardetsky, it is referenced in a paper,
http://spin.niddk.nih.gov/clore/Pub/pdf/60.pdf, as:
King, R., Maas, R., Gassner, M., Nauda, RX.,
Conover, W.W. and Jardetzky, 0. (1978) Biophys.
J. 6, 103-117.
Only the abstract is available on-line. Does it look familiar to you?
The full article should be available at any good scientific library, in
the 1978 volume of Biophysical Journal.
Patricia
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: King/Gassner/Shanahan (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug28-020@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Patricia Shanahan <····@acm.org>
> > In the case of the NMR research, the paper was by my boss, whose name I
> > don't remember, but based on a recent online search I believe it might
> > have been Olav Jardetsky. I contributed my description, which his
> > secretary re-wrote, or somesuch.
> With the additional name, I've been able to track down a candidate:
> Biophysical Journal, Vol 24, 103-117, Copyright ) 1978 by Biophysical
> Society
> ARTICLES
> Magnetic relaxation analysis of dynamic processes in macromolecules in
> the pico- to microsecond range
Yes, that's the kind of research we were doing.
> R King, R Maas, M Gassner, RK Nanda and WW Conover
Aha! I recognize the name "Gassner". He might have been my immediate
supervisor. I don't remember whether Jardetsky's name was mentionned
once or twice, or even whether I met him once or twice. "King" is such
a common name, with more recent memories (Rodney King's beating, Martin
Luther King's legacy) that I don't remember that name at all in
connection with my NMR work. We had no e-mail, so I never saw any of
those names in e-mail headers or mentionned in memos etc. That work
occurred over a mere nine-month period, 28-29 years ago, so you can
understand how I can't be really sure of names that I never was able to
learn in the first place due to my learning disability.
> A formalism based on the theory of Markov processes and suitable for the
> analysis of multiple internal motions in macromolecules is presented.
> Computer calculations of specific motional models for (13)C nuclear
> magnetic resonance (NMR) relaxation, treated as special cases of the
> proposed formalism, demonstrate the potential of this approach for
> discriminating between different motional models on the basis of NMR
> relaxation data.
*my* computer calculations, based on formulas from a published paper.
Indeed that's exactly what we were working on and my software aided.
So this sounds indeed like a correct search result. Thank you very much!
Did you find the citation in some public index, or only in some
commercial index where you have to register or somesuch to use it?
Google doesn't have even one match for title keys and first author.
On the other hand, if I search for just 3 terms:
Magnetic relaxation Gassner
up come matches which contain the other terms Google said it couldn't
find!! I think the Google search engine is broken!!
Anyway, these good results:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=708816&dopt=Abstract
Biophys J. 1978 Oct;24(1):103-17
http://www.biophysj.org/cgi/content/abstract/24/1/103
Biophysical Journal, Vol 24, 103-117
And this result which looks good from the Google end:
Linkname: THEORY AND PRACTICE OF NUCLEAR SPIN RELAXATION IN PROTEINS
URL:
http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.phy
schem.47.1.243
but when I try to go there it refuses to let me see the article:
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
I don't want to accept your fucking poison cookies just to view some
Web content! Cookies are for setting up sessions that persist through
multiple HTTP cycles/transactions, which is nothing I intend to do
here, or for spying on users to enable commercial advertisements via
spam and other unethical methods, and to commit identity theft, which I
vehemently object to!!
So anyway, thanks to you, I now have two different formats of the
citation, and I don't know which is the "standard" format that somebodh
else in this thread said I should include in my resume to prove I'm not
lying about having this paper published. (One other person actually
called me a liar, not using that particular word, but he said flat out
that he believes I'm not telling the truth that anything from my work
was ever published in a respected journal. But of course he'll claim
that he never heard of the "Biophysical Journal" so it must not be any
respected journal.)
> Although this does not mention Jardetsky, it is referenced in a paper,
> http://spin.niddk.nih.gov/clore/Pub/pdf/60.pdf, as:
> King, R., Maas, R., Gassner, M., Nauda, RX.,
> Conover, W.W. and Jardetzky, 0. (1978) Biophys.
> J. 6, 103-117.
I don't have any way to view PDF from here.
I downloaded it to my shell account temporarily, just to see how
big it was:
704 -rw------- 1 rem user 701519 Aug 28 13:58 60.pdf
Let me convert to uuencode:
960 -rw------- 1 rem user 966563 Aug 28 13:59 60.uu
and then just start Kermit to get an idea how long it'd take to
download... after a half minute it's downloaded 14k bytes, so that's
28k per minute, so it'd take about 34-35 minutes to download.
> Only the abstract is available on-line. Does it look familiar to you?
No, just the subject matter, not the abstract itself.
(I never saw the article or abstract, just the part I contributed to
the one article regarding my software.)
> The full article should be available at any good scientific library, in
> the 1978 volume of Biophysical Journal.
I don't have access to any such library, unless the San Jose public
library would have it (the new Martin Luther King library on campus of
San Jose State University). I suffer motion sickness riding the bus all
the way to San Jose, so I don't go there often, and when I do go there
it's to go somewhere else where I'm busy until 5PM or 7:30 PM, and the
library closes at 6PM so there's no time to sign up for an InterNet
terminal to find your reference then try to find the journal.
If I have any time during my one hour on InterNet terminal at Sunnyvale
public library, I'll check whether that PDF is viewable there.
Does anybody know of a free program that does OCR on PDF files and
keeps track of layout so as to convert to reasonable HTML or plain
ASCII? Or if I wrote such a program myself would anyone think it was a
good thing and pay me money for all that effort? Or am I the only
person who thinks that converting a megabyte PDF file to a 30K text
file would be a useful utility?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: Patricia Shanahan <····@acm.org>
...
> Did you find the citation in some public index, or only in some
> commercial index where you have to register or somesuch to use it?
> Google doesn't have even one match for title keys and first author.
I used Google. I started with a search for
Jardetsky Maas
That did not get many results, so I accepted Google's advice to
change the spelling to
Jardetzky Maas
Jardetzky has co-authored a lot with another Maas, so I went to advanced
search, and excluded "Maas, EV".
The top two hits did not look useful. The third hit was the on-line
paper that referenced your paper. That gave me the journal abbreviation
"Biophys. J" and the year 1978. A Google search for "biophys journal"
got me its home page, and then it was just a matter of scanning the
issue-by-issue index for 1978.
It's amazing what Google can do if you twist it the right way.
> And this result which looks good from the Google end:
> Linkname: THEORY AND PRACTICE OF NUCLEAR SPIN RELAXATION IN PROTEINS
> URL:
> http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.phy
> schem.47.1.243
This is more likely to be a review article referencing your paper, than
to have a copy of the paper you want.
>> Only the abstract is available on-line.
In support of this, the Biophysical Journal web site says "Abstracts
only: Jan 1976 - Dec 1997". The lack of Google hits for title keyword
and first author also argues against the paper being stored in any
on-line archive.
Patricia
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:18:14 +0100, Robert Maas, see
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
>
> Does anybody know of a free program that does OCR on PDF files and
> keeps track of layout so as to convert to reasonable HTML or plain
> ASCII? Or if I wrote such a program myself would anyone think it was a
> good thing and pay me money for all that effort? Or am I the only
> person who thinks that converting a megabyte PDF file to a 30K text
> file would be a useful utility?
There are various command-line utilities. Search for "pdf2ascii",
"pdf2html", "pdftohtml", "pdf2txt" etc. Maybe your shell account already
has one of these available.
Dan.
--
Daniel Dyer
http://www.dandyer.co.uk
"Daniel Dyer" <···@dannospamformepleasedyer.co.uk> writes:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:18:14 +0100, Robert Maas, see
> http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
>>
>> Does anybody know of a free program that does OCR on PDF files and
>> keeps track of layout so as to convert to reasonable HTML or plain
>> ASCII?
>
> There are various command-line utilities. Search for "pdf2ascii",
> "pdf2html", "pdftohtml", "pdf2txt" etc. Maybe your shell account
> already has one of these available.
To my knowledge, none of these utilities do any form of OCR.
They only work with PDF files that render text characters with a
font. They will not produce useful results for PDF files that
just encapsulate a scanned bitmap.
--
"But hey, the fact that I have better taste than anybody else in the
universe is just something I have to live with. It's not easy being
me."
--Linus Torvalds
"Daniel Dyer" <···@dannospamformepleasedyer.co.uk> writes:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:18:14 +0100, Robert Maas, see
> http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
>>
>> Does anybody know of a free program that does OCR on PDF files and
>> keeps track of layout so as to convert to reasonable HTML or plain
>> ASCII? Or if I wrote such a program myself would anyone think it was a
>> good thing and pay me money for all that effort? Or am I the only
>> person who thinks that converting a megabyte PDF file to a 30K text
>> file would be a useful utility?
>
> There are various command-line utilities. Search for "pdf2ascii",
> "pdf2html", "pdftohtml", "pdf2txt" etc. Maybe your shell account
> already has one of these available.
But a megabyte PDF that reduce to 30K text will containt the text as
scanned bitmaps, not as PDF text. On these file, pdf2ascii doesn't
work, you need real OCR.
Happily, it's not too difficult to find free OCR software with google...
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: Patricia Shanahan <····@acm.org>
...
>>The full article should be available at any good scientific library, in
>>the 1978 volume of Biophysical Journal.
>
>
> I don't have access to any such library, unless the San Jose public
> library would have it (the new Martin Luther King library on campus of
> San Jose State University). I suffer motion sickness riding the bus all
> the way to San Jose, so I don't go there often, and when I do go there
> it's to go somewhere else where I'm busy until 5PM or 7:30 PM, and the
> library closes at 6PM so there's no time to sign up for an InterNet
> terminal to find your reference then try to find the journal.
According to its web page, the library is open 8:00 AM - 10:00 PM Monday
through Thursday.
Like most large libraries, it makes its catalog available on-line,
searchable from anywhere using http://mill1.sjlibrary.org/search/
They say they have volumes v.11 (1971)-v.73 (1997) of Biophysical
Journal, location "King Periodicals Lower Level", call number "QH505.A1
B537". You need pages 103-117 for October 1978, in volume 24.
Patricia
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Does anybody know of a free program that does OCR on PDF files and
> keeps track of layout so as to convert to reasonable HTML or plain
> ASCII? Or if I wrote such a program myself would anyone think it was a
> good thing and pay me money for all that effort? Or am I the only
> person who thinks that converting a megabyte PDF file to a 30K text
> file would be a useful utility?
Google does give you a link for each PDF to view that PDF as html. I
don't know how those pages look in lynx, though. I'm not sure how to
let it convert your own PDF, maybe you need to put in online and wait a
few weeks for Google to index it, or maybe you could try to see what
google does with the URL and direct it to your PDF file. But then I've
also seen PDFs for which Google didn't show the "show as HTML" link.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: Patricia Shanahan <····@acm.org>
> > The full article should be available at any good scientific library, in
> > the 1978 volume of Biophysical Journal.
>
> I don't have access to any such library, unless the San Jose public
> library would have it (the new Martin Luther King library on campus of
> San Jose State University).
I believe she is suggesting that you go to a good library, and see if
they have the paper journal in their stacks. Many university libraries
have their catalogs online, and most will allow you to go to the stacks
and xerox articles. If you are not a student, you usually do not have
borrowing privileges, but you are often allowed to go into the library.
Failing an online catalog, call their reference desk, and ask whether
they have this journal, and whether you would be allowed to go get a
copy of it.
Most good university libraries should carry Biophysical Journal.
Scott
--
Scott Ellsworth
·····@alodar.nospam.com
Java and database consulting for the life sciences
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:20:19 -0700, Scott Ellsworth <·····@alodar.com>
wrote:
>In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>
>> > From: Patricia Shanahan <····@acm.org>
>> > The full article should be available at any good scientific library, in
>> > the 1978 volume of Biophysical Journal.
>>
>> I don't have access to any such library, unless the San Jose public
>> library would have it (the new Martin Luther King library on campus of
>> San Jose State University).
>
>I believe she is suggesting that you go to a good library, and see if
>they have the paper journal in their stacks. Many university libraries
>have their catalogs online, and most will allow you to go to the stacks
>and xerox articles. If you are not a student, you usually do not have
>borrowing privileges, but you are often allowed to go into the library.
>
>Failing an online catalog, call their reference desk, and ask whether
>they have this journal, and whether you would be allowed to go get a
>copy of it.
>
>Most good university libraries should carry Biophysical Journal.
>
>Scott
Many public libraries participate in inter-library programs and can
obtain such things on request.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
··························@att.net
Oh well, it's Sunday...
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> Were you the sole author of these papers
>
> Good suggestion. Here's the info:
> NMR - contributing author
> Robot - primary author
> DiffAlg abstract - sole author
> Others - unknown if any paper or not
The DiffAlg was only an abstract?? And you seriously have no idea what
papers were published with you as an author, or where they appeared?
You didn't ask anybody? This is sooo ridiculous :D
>> Its the only explination I can think of why you wold not know where
>> your paper was published.
>
> What if my supervisor did all the publishing arrangement?
> Can you think of that?
And he didn't answer your question at all??
> Having CGI that allows arbitrary Unix runnables
> (both native binaries and scripts that use native binaries) is
> different from Perl-only WebServers such as Tripod, and
> no-CGI-whatsoever WebServers such as Geocities.
Here I actually agree. But most providers these days should provide CGI.
>> they shallow level of description you have made me think you had next
>> to no database experience at all.
>
> And what kind of description would fit on one or two lines of a
> one-page resume that would convince you I had enough experience to do a
> job you wanted me to do?
After reading this whole thread, and all your excuses for everything?
Hmm...
> Or just forget the 1-2 line restriction. Let's say half my page is
> stuff about relational databases. What could I reveal in half a page
> to convince a skeptic that I really know how to write JDBC software?
You could create or participate in an open-source project and mention that.
>> MS Access is barely a database in the terms of what employers think
>> of when talking about a database.
>
> MS ACCESS is the only DB available via JDBC at De Anza college.
> Oracle was available, but only manually via keyboard/SQL interface,
> with no way to make tables or find out what tables were already in the
> database it connected to, hence no way to play with it either manually
> or via JDBC.
Or you could again cancel your $20 shell account, get a used computer
for $50, get a free shipping of Ubuntu Linux, install that, install
PostgreSQL or MySQL or something else. For webspace and dialup service
there are cheaper alternatives than $20, too (at least in Europe).
>> Get yourself an instance of postgres to learn with ...
>
> If you require me to do that, you'll have to provide the money to buy
> it for my Macintosh with only 17 megabytes unused disk space, or for my
> laptop with no working modem or diskette drive or CD-Rom drive, hence
> no way to install it without first fixing the modem.
Or you could come up with some really innovative excuses...
> If you won't provide the money to do what you want me to do, then don't
> order me what to do.
Who the hell orders you to do anything?? Remember? You came here
asking for help with your work life (if we want to call it with those
two words).
>> stop referring to ove 20 years experience. You don't have over 20
>> years experience
>
> That's a fucking lie! I do too have 22+ years experience at writing
> computer software.
Then mention some practical key examples that are appropriate to the job
you're applying to.
>> the only experience that counts is paid employment experiences.
>
> Fuck you! Most of my best work was unpaid.
Now you are ordering him to do things he might not want to do...
If your unpaid work resulted in anything useful (that interests the
$COMPANY), just mention it.
>> your skills don't match those of someone who has been doing it full
>> time for 20 years.
>
> You don't even know what my skills are! The total time I've spent
> writing computer software is at least equivalent to 22 years fulltime.
We know what you said they are. But we don't see lots of cool
applications that could have been written in that time.
> Do you want more examples of my software solving real-world problems
> (college payroll, college class assignments, for example), or have I
> made my point with those first two?
Don't know about him, but I don't give a rat's ass (well, I don't even
have one). Some potential employer might, though, if it involves some
for him interesting technologies.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface (a
la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as the
standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Or you could again cancel your $20 shell account, get a used computer for
> $50, get a free shipping of Ubuntu Linux, install that, install PostgreSQL
> or MySQL or something else. For webspace and dialup service there are
> cheaper alternatives than $20, too (at least in Europe).
Why Ubuntu Linux?
(You had me Googling for some kind of funky Central African Linux with 'fro
themes, so I wouldn'a asked, but it's from the Isle of Man!)
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Phlip wrote:
> Why Ubuntu Linux?
it is actually a pretty good distribution (imagine
Debian, except that they get it right -- running
for cover :-) -- seriously, installation and update
is a bit more user friendly than Debian) *and* there
is an Ubuntu bootable CD that you can try without
having to install the thing.
--Sylvain
Sylvain wrote
(in article <······················@speakeasy.net>):
> Phlip wrote:
>> Why Ubuntu Linux?
>
> it is actually a pretty good distribution (imagine
> Debian, except that they get it right
almost.
Kubuntu gets it right. :-)
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
Randy Howard wrote:
> > it is actually a pretty good distribution (imagine
> > Debian, except that they get it right
>
> almost.
>
> Kubuntu gets it right. :-)
Kugh....
;-)
-- chris
[ note f'ups: this is offtopic on all of these groups ]
Sylvain <····@att.net> writes:
> Phlip wrote:
>> Why Ubuntu Linux?
>
> it is actually a pretty good distribution (imagine
> Debian, except that they get it right -- running
> for cover :-) -- seriously, installation and update
> is a bit more user friendly than Debian)
I don't believe this is true any longer. The first release of Ubuntu
(4.10, almost a year ago) based its installer on the then-unreleased
"sarge" version, and consequently shone when compared to Debian's
released 3-year-old "woody" installer. However, now that "sarge" has
released, its installer is essentially the same as Ubuntu's: neither
has a particular advantage over the other.
> *and* there is an Ubuntu bootable CD that you can try without having
> to install the thing.
This is true: there are no official Debian live CDs (though Knoppix is
mentioned on <http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/>)
Christophe
Phlip wrote:
> Why Ubuntu Linux?
Oh, a friend of mine gave me a PowerPC install+live CD just yesterday.
Turns out he got a package with four copies of CDs for PPC, x86, and
x86-64 each, shipped, and all for free on their website. That's why I
thought I'd mention it. Free is a good price, and I didn't know any
Linux organization would actually give you free CDs and shipping.
> (You had me Googling for some kind of funky Central African Linux with 'fro
> themes, so I wouldn'a asked, but it's from the Isle of Man!)
Hehe, no, it's just a repackaged Debian I think. But on my machine it
booted fine from CD out of the box, very nice. It didn't seem to have
stuff like gcc installed, but I think you could use the normal Debian
tools to do that after installation.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Oh well, it's Sunday...
Oooh, just one more!
> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> Fuck you! Most of my best work was unpaid.
Well, that's the sort of blinkard, philistine pig ignorance I've come to
expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit on your loathsome spotty
behinds, squeezing blackheads, and not caring a tinker's cuss for the
struggling artist.
You excrement! You whining hypocritical toadies with your color TV sets and
your Tony Jacklin golf clubs, and your bleeding Masonic secret handshakes,
you wouldn't care would you, you black-balling bastards!
Well I WOULDN'T BECOME a FREEMASON NOW if you went DOWN on your LOUSY
STINKING KNEES and BEGGED ME!
(entirely from memory, folks...)
--
John Cleese
"Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
> Well, that's the sort of blinkard, philistine pig ignorance I've come to
> expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit on your loathsome spotty
> behinds, squeezing blackheads, and not caring a tinker's cuss for the
> struggling artist.
>
> You excrement! You whining hypocritical toadies with your color TV sets and
> your Tony Jacklin golf clubs, and your bleeding Masonic secret handshakes,
> you wouldn't care would you, you black-balling bastards!
>
> Well I WOULDN'T BECOME a FREEMASON NOW if you went DOWN on your LOUSY
> STINKING KNEES and BEGGED ME!
>
> (entirely from memory, folks...)
It *was* a nice abattoir.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Oh well, it's Sunday...
>
> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> >> Were you the sole author of these papers
> > Good suggestion. Here's the info:
> > NMR - contributing author
> > Robot - primary author
> > DiffAlg abstract - sole author
> > Others - unknown if any paper or not
>
> The DiffAlg was only an abstract?? And you seriously have no idea what
> papers were published with you as an author, or where they appeared?
> You didn't ask anybody? This is sooo ridiculous :D
I agree and doubt that they were ever published in anything reputable
or recognized. I also love the line where he says his supervisor may
have asked him to sign something, but he didn't know what it was for -
imagine that, signing things when you have no idea what you are
signing away!
> >> Its the only explination I can think of why you wold not know where
> >> your paper was published.
> > What if my supervisor did all the publishing arrangement?
> > Can you think of that?
>
> And he didn't answer your question at all??
I published a couple of articles during my post grad work. Some were
with my supervisor and in each case, we had to sign copyright
statements, had some reviews and feedback from the reviewers and both
recieved free copies of the books/journals. For me his story doesn't
really add up. I suspect his "publications" were probably just
technical reports or he was just a minor (and possibly not
accredited).
> > Having CGI that allows arbitrary Unix runnables
> > (both native binaries and scripts that use native binaries) is
> > different from Perl-only WebServers such as Tripod, and
> > no-CGI-whatsoever WebServers such as Geocities.
>
> Here I actually agree. But most providers these days should provide CGI.
The point I was making here and which Robert manages to twist by
judicious quoting was his original assertion that CGI and Unix were
linked. My point is that CGI is NOT limited to Unix environments. You
have CGI support with most multi-purpose web servers, like Apache and
they run on multiple platforms. I never made any statement that all
web servers provided CGI, only that CGI is not limited to Unix
environments.
> >> they shallow level of description you have made me think you had next
> >> to no database experience at all.
> > And what kind of description would fit on one or two lines of a
> > one-page resume that would convince you I had enough experience to do a
> > job you wanted me to do?
Robert, if I'm honest, I would now say that NOTHING you say would ever
convince me of anything.
> After reading this whole thread, and all your excuses for everything?
> Hmm...
>
> > Or just forget the 1-2 line restriction. Let's say half my page is
> > stuff about relational databases. What could I reveal in half a page
> > to convince a skeptic that I really know how to write JDBC software?
>
> You could create or participate in an open-source project and mention that.
>
> >> MS Access is barely a database in the terms of what employers think
> >> of when talking about a database.
> > MS ACCESS is the only DB available via JDBC at De Anza college.
> > Oracle was available, but only manually via keyboard/SQL interface,
> > with no way to make tables or find out what tables were already in the
> > database it connected to, hence no way to play with it either manually
> > or via JDBC.
>
> Or you could again cancel your $20 shell account, get a used computer
> for $50, get a free shipping of Ubuntu Linux, install that, install
> PostgreSQL or MySQL or something else. For webspace and dialup
> service there are cheaper alternatives than $20, too (at least in
> Europe).
I don't know about you, but I would be very reluctant to employ anyone
to solve my problems who cannot even solve the simple problem of
getting hs own reasonable computing environment together.
> >> Get yourself an instance of postgres to learn with ...
> > If you require me to do that, you'll have to provide the money to buy
> > it for my Macintosh with only 17 megabytes unused disk space, or for my
> > laptop with no working modem or diskette drive or CD-Rom drive, hence
> > no way to install it without first fixing the modem.
>
> Or you could come up with some really innovative excuses...
>
> > If you won't provide the money to do what you want me to do, then don't
> > order me what to do.
>
> Who the hell orders you to do anything?? Remember? You came here
> asking for help with your work life (if we want to call it with those
> two words).
Precisely. Robert strolls in here and despite far too many people
trying to help him out, he has an excuse for why every suggestion is
no good. He has no ability to take responsability and really doesn't
want help - he just wants an avenue to moan about how miserable life
is.
> >> stop referring to ove 20 years experience. You don't have over 20
> >> years experience
> > That's a fucking lie! I do too have 22+ years experience at writing
> > computer software.
I love this bit! Robert has conveniently cut out what I wrote earlier
about only commercial experience being counted and pretends that was
not what the emphasis was on.
> Then mention some practical key examples that are appropriate to the
> job you're applying to.
>
> >> the only experience that counts is paid employment experiences.
> > Fuck you! Most of my best work was unpaid.
Heee Heee. Now he is feeling boxed in and has to resort to base poor
language. He refuses to acknowledge that regardless of what you have
done outside paid employment, it doesn't count. What he doesn't
realise is there is a reason for this. Work you do on your own is
generally not reviewed by anyone, not used by many people and
therefore has no external evaluation, only his on subjective opinion,
which to an employer is worth very little. Now, if he had spent the
last 10 years working on some open source projects and atually
developed a reputation, he may have something. As it is, he is now a
bitter old man rappidly approaching 60 with no job.
Initially, I did feel for his situation, but now I realise he is
pretty much an obnoxious jerk who has got the life he
deserves. Possibly a bit harsh, I guess I'm beyond caring.
> Now you are ordering him to do things he might not want to do...
>
> If your unpaid work resulted in anything useful (that interests the
> $COMPANY), just mention it.
Watch out - he will order you to go and use is computer aided learning
system for a few months just so that you can see how wonderful it
is. However, don't bother suggesting he gets some sort of demo
together which prospective employers can see how clever he is in under
half a lifetime - he has already rejected that suggestion.
> >> your skills don't match those of someone who has been doing it full
> >> time for 20 years.
> > You don't even know what my skills are! The total time I've spent
> > writing computer software is at least equivalent to 22 years fulltime.
He still misses the point that its not the time you spend, its what
you produce. In the last 10+ years, the only things he seems to have
produced are some pretty skanky CGi apps.
> We know what you said they are. But we don't see lots of cool
> applications that could have been written in that time.
>
> > Do you want more examples of my software solving real-world problems
> > (college payroll, college class assignments, for example), or have I
> > made my point with those first two?
>
> Don't know about him, but I don't give a rat's ass (well, I don't even
> have one). Some potential employer might, though, if it involves some
> for him interesting technologies.
Nah, I'm beyond caring about robert anymore. As I said, he doesn't
really want suggestions or honest criticism, he just wants a venue for
moaning. No realisation that a job and working is a lot more than just
being able to write code - there is a little something called
personality and the ability to play well with others. I suspect to
some extent, past employers and colleagues may have some of the blame
- from all the things he has written, I suspect he has never been told
the reasons why he lost each job he had. People can be very cowardly
about telling people the truth if they think it will hurt their
feelings and I think its very likely Robert has been given all sorts
of made up reasons for why his jobs were terminated or contracts were
not renewed rather than telling him it was to do with his personality
and the fact he was difficult to work with. Its a pity really, given
true feedback and the support to make the necessary changes early
enough and he could have made positive contributions rather than just
being another burden on the welfare systtem.
My suggestion, ignore further posts and let the whole thread die the
death it should have had way too long ago......
Tim
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
>> > Having CGI that allows arbitrary Unix runnables
>>> (both native binaries and scripts that use native binaries) is
>>> different from Perl-only WebServers such as Tripod, and
>>> no-CGI-whatsoever WebServers such as Geocities.
>> Here I actually agree. But most providers these days should provide CGI.
>
> The point I was making here and which Robert manages to twist by
> judicious quoting was his original assertion that CGI and Unix were
> linked. My point is that CGI is NOT limited to Unix environments. You
> have CGI support with most multi-purpose web servers, like Apache and
> they run on multiple platforms. I never made any statement that all
> web servers provided CGI, only that CGI is not limited to Unix
> environments.
Sure it's not. But if you want a custom program to run as CGI, you
might need access to the local environment (compilers, headers,
libraries) to build your program for that environment. For those
servers who run Linux and do allow generic (non-Perl) CGI execution,
maybe finding a Linux machine somewhere else and doing a static link
might work. But then it might not, if the server's kernel interface
differs slightly for whatever reason.
I just got a small webspace account which gives me ssh (and scp) access
to a chrooted environment (with very few commands at all, no gcc, not
even tar and gzip), Apache, PHP, and CGI. I have to ask how I'm
supposed to be able to install CGI stuff without any way to compile
anything... Maybe I'll just get a different web-package when I need it
(this one was free for me for this year).
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> I just got a small webspace account which gives me ssh (and scp)
> access to a chrooted environment (with very few commands at all, no
> gcc, not even tar and gzip), Apache, PHP, and CGI. I have to ask how
> I'm supposed to be able to install CGI stuff without any way to
> compile anything... Maybe I'll just get a different web-package when
> I need it (this one was free for me for this year).
You have scp. Depending on your disk quota, you may be able to scp
other executables that you need. You just need to be sure they are
compatible with the libc in your /usr/lib/.
Do you have access to /etc/apache/httpd.conf? (location may vary)
There are a number of minor details. But the way chroot works, every
file you will need must be in your chroot environment (symlinks don't
even work, IIRC). Your real limit is disk space. You might even be
able to scp gcc to the server in your $HOME.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
David Steuber wrote:
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
>> I just got a small webspace account which gives me ssh (and scp)
>> access to a chrooted environment (with very few commands at all, no
>> gcc, not even tar and gzip), Apache, PHP, and CGI. I have to ask how
>> I'm supposed to be able to install CGI stuff without any way to
>> compile anything... Maybe I'll just get a different web-package when
>> I need it (this one was free for me for this year).
>
> You have scp. Depending on your disk quota, you may be able to scp
> other executables that you need. You just need to be sure they are
> compatible with the libc in your /usr/lib/.
Well, that means I might need a compatible system to compile stuff.
> Do you have access to /etc/apache/httpd.conf? (location may vary)
No, just the chroot.
> There are a number of minor details. But the way chroot works, every
> file you will need must be in your chroot environment (symlinks don't
> even work, IIRC). Your real limit is disk space. You might even be
> able to scp gcc to the server in your $HOME.
Yeah, well, the account is free and I don't really need it, so static
pages are ok, too. For trying out things I always have my home machine.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey?
Date:
Message-ID: <m34q98qdm9.fsf@4dv.net>
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
>> You have scp. Depending on your disk quota, you may be able to scp
>> other executables that you need. You just need to be sure they are
>> compatible with the libc in your /usr/lib/.
>
> Well, that means I might need a compatible system to compile stuff.
A full gcc is supposed to be able to cross-compile IIRC. No idea what
sort of a setup you'd need to do it, though.
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Congress has the authority to raise an army, but it does not have the
constitutional authority to enslave a certain group to bear the brunt of
the fighting. A society that cherishes liberty will easily find
volunteer defenders if it is attacked. A free society that cannot find
those willing to defend itself without coercion cannot survive, and
probably does not deserve to. --Ron Paul
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> David Steuber wrote:
> > Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> >
> >> I just got a small webspace account which gives me ssh (and scp)
> >> access to a chrooted environment (with very few commands at all, no
> >> gcc, not even tar and gzip), Apache, PHP, and CGI. I have to ask how
> >> I'm supposed to be able to install CGI stuff without any way to
> >> compile anything... Maybe I'll just get a different web-package when
> >> I need it (this one was free for me for this year).
> >
> > You have scp. Depending on your disk quota, you may be able to scp
> > other executables that you need. You just need to be sure they are
> > compatible with the libc in your /usr/lib/.
>
> Well, that means I might need a compatible system to compile stuff.
>
> > Do you have access to /etc/apache/httpd.conf? (location may vary)
>
> No, just the chroot.
Well *local* chroot can be your best option. Install on a free
partition of your home machine a similar system, then do:
chroot /mnt/hdaXX
cd /where/your/stuff/is/
nice -20 make
to your heart pleasure :)
That's how I compiled gentoo from debian, BTW.
O-MY-GLIFE wrote:
> Well *local* chroot can be your best option. Install on a free
> partition of your home machine a similar system, then do:
>
> chroot /mnt/hdaXX
> cd /where/your/stuff/is/
> nice -20 make
>
> to your heart pleasure :)
>
> That's how I compiled gentoo from debian, BTW.
Well, I have a Mac, so I'd have to install binary Linux shared-libs, a
GCC cross compiler and make sure that the GCC produces Linux ELF and not
something else...
I guess I don't bother; it's not that important anyway.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: TimX says journals not reputable? (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-011@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> I ... doubt that they were ever published in anything reputable or
> recognized.
Let me check if I understand you correctly. In your opinion, none of
the following journals is reputable or recognized:
Biophysical Journal
Theoretical Linguistics
International Journal of Man-Machine Studies
Instructional Science
Is that correct?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
>>I ... doubt that they were ever published in anything reputable or
>>recognized.
>
>
> Let me check if I understand you correctly. In your opinion, none of
> the following journals is reputable or recognized:
> Biophysical Journal
> Theoretical Linguistics
> International Journal of Man-Machine Studies
> Instructional Science
> Is that correct?
Can you find somewhere else to debate this, other than c.l.java.programmer
where it's way off-topic? (probably also offtopic for .lisp)
--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: ·······@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307
From: Tim X
Subject: Re: TimX says journals not reputable? (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Date:
Message-ID: <878xyd8gcq.fsf@tiger.rapttech.com.au>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > I ... doubt that they were ever published in anything reputable or
> > recognized.
>
> Let me check if I understand you correctly. In your opinion, none of
> the following journals is reputable or recognized:
> Biophysical Journal
> Theoretical Linguistics
> International Journal of Man-Machine Studies
> Instructional Science
> Is that correct?
Robert you are a complete and total waste of space. Look at what I
wrote (which was prior to you ever stating what journals your papers
were written in BTW). Now, just in case there is a very very slight
chance you can actually engage in some real critical thought and
analysis - which I doubt - if I posted my text prior to you ever
stating what journals you published in (and in fact after you stated
you couldn't remember), the how the hell can you interpret what I
wrote as making any comment on the journals themselve?
What my statement was saying is that if you cannot state what journals
you were published in, I doubt your claim to have ever been
published. Now thanks to Patricia, who was able to find the details
very quickly - something you were unable to do for yourself (which is
another clue as to why nobody will ever offer you a job), those
journals you got published in are known and I am quite willing to
accept you did get publshed. However, I reject totally yyour twisting
of what I said as to somehow imply I was implying anyting about the
journals themselves.
To make it very very clear. I have not comment regarding the journals
themselves - I am not familiar with them personally and therefore will
not pass judgement on them. You on the other hand are a complete and
utter jerk who refuses to give up this constant wining and
complaining, who refuses to acknowledge the bleeding obvious point
that you are totally unemployable, incapable of taking responsability
for your own situation and instead of spending effort in changing your
life, continually put all your effort into rejecting any of the sound
suggestions from these newsgroups.
This is the absolute last time I will respond to your self obsessed
moaning and poor attempts to justify your hopeless position by
misquoting and misrepresentation of what everyone has suggested. You
have the dubious honor of being the first person from c.l.l to be put
into my kill file. Enjoy your self imposed misery.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
For the love of god, GO AWAY. Stop whining on technical newsgroups.
If you insist on posting here, POST ABOUT LISP. Better yet, go write
some fucking code. Or walk to the library, whatever. But stop
smelling up c.l.lisp with the stench of pathetic failure and death.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | Free Mumia Abu-Jamal! |
,--' _,' | Abolish the racist |
/ / | death penalty! |
( -. | `-----------------------'
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Memories/CGI/tools/commercial (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-012@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> I also love the line where he says his supervisor may have asked him
> to sign something, but he didn't know what it was for - imagine that,
> signing things when you have no idea what you are signing away!
No, what I'm saying is that at the time I would have carefully read
what I was signing, but that would have been in 1977 (NMR) or 1984
(robot), both of which were more than 20 years ago, and I can't
remember so long ago which particular papers I did or did not sign at
some particular time. I have a vague memory of having to sign something
back in 1984 in regard to publishing the robot paper, but it was so
very long ago I can't trust that memory. And I have no memory at all of
any 1977 paper-signing which would have been more than 28 years ago.
Both are so awfully long ago you can't really expect me to remember
them as distinct events I can testify to here. I do however remember
that I did sign papers in 1978, in conjunction with the technology
assessment office at Stanford, when they were agreeing to help me
patent my data-compression invention. I was signing the dating of my
description so it'd be a legal document in their files whenever needed
for legal means such as proving that I was the first person to invent
that particular algorithm, and they were signing a non-disclosure
agreement, and witnessing my signature on the description on
such-and-such date, or something like that, I can't remember exactly
how many papers we signed 27 years ago, but it was a distinct thing I
had make a special appointment to do with them so that memory is more
distinct and definite than memory of other paper-signing events so very
long ago.
> My point is that CGI is NOT limited to Unix environments. You
> have CGI support with most multi-purpose web servers, like Apache and
> they run on multiple platforms. I never made any statement that all
> web servers provided CGI, only that CGI is not limited to Unix
> environments.
Nice of you to agree with me now. Your original statement was unclear
and tended to imply that CGI on Unix is nothing more than just Unix by
itself because all Unix hosts support CGI and allow their users to use
CGI. My original point was that programming for the CGI environment is
quite a bit different from programming for the Unix stdio/stdout
environment in either filter (*) mode or interactive mode, so that fact
that I've written both CGI applications and regular Unix applications
is better skillset than if I had written only regular Unix
applications. But I was specifying CGI/Unix as the environment, because
I've never had access to any networked host that supported CGI except
this one that runs Unix, so if somebody is looking for somebody with
experience specifically on CGI/Windows I don't qualify, and if I just
say I have CGI experience somebody could easily mistakenly believe I
had such experience on Windows.
(*) Unix filter mode means you pipe some file or script or other data
source into stdin, and pipe stdout to another file or process, such as
with this command I wrote:
ps | grep '\- ' | awk ' {printf("kill %s\n",$1)} ' | sh
ps is the data source, while grep and awk are used in filter mode, and
sh is used in final-destination batch mode.
Note that *most* people who have written Unix applications have never
written any CGI application, so my experience there is special, more
than the average Joe's Unix programming experience. Also I specifically
used Unix features from CGI, rather than writing 100% pure CGI that
would run the same on Windows. In fact my first attempt at CGI/Perl ran
fine on Unix but wouldn't work at all on Tripod because they don't have
the underlying Unix that I was using, so I had to rewrite my CGI/Perl
script to make it run in pure CGI/Perl on Tripod. But that very limited
CGI/Perl experience was after I wrote that particular resume, so of
course only CGI/Unix was reported there. That was also before I got my
laptop running Linux, so of course my more recent Linux experience
wasn't reported either. My very latest resume, which is after both my
CGI/PurePerl and Linux experience, has CGI and Unix split apart, and
Unix/Linux joined together as a single kind of environment, to better
represent the range of my experience to-date. That part now reads:
* Platforms (programming environments): Unix/Linux shell, CGI,
Macintosh, MicroSoft Windows, and many others now obsolete
Do you have any nitpicks about that wording now?
> I would now say that NOTHING you say would ever convince me of
> anything.
That's a good skeptical attitude, not just for me, but for everyone who
ever tries to convince you of anything, such as that if you invest only
five dollars in a chainletter you can receive millions, or that male
enhancement drugs will make you popular with women, or that some
particular religion is based on the word of the Creator and therefore
is better than all other religions put together, or that by mixing
chemicals in a flask you can cause useful nuclear fusion to occur and
thereby provide a cheap safe source of energy.
Go with evidence, not with somebody claiming authority on some topic.
Please tell me what evidence I could present to you to convince you to
hire me to write software applications for you.
> I would be very reluctant to employ anyone to solve my problems who
> cannot even solve the simple problem of getting hs [sic] own
> reasonable computing environment together.
I actually had a reasonble computing environment from 1989 until 1999,
able to develop Lisp applications on my Macintosh Plus, and wrote
several really useful applications there. But my MacPlus died in 1999,
and I haven't had the money to get it fixed, nor the money to purchase
a comparable programming environment on my newer Macintosh Performa.
Why didn't you hire me any time from 1991 to 1999 when I was unemployed
but still had a reasonable programming environment on my MacPlus, or
from 2004.Nov to 2004.May when I had a reasonable programming
environment on my Linux laptop plus a working modem for
uploading/downloading files between it and the net?
(I still have that reasonable programming environment on my laptop, but
without any way to move files between there and any other machine it's
not of much practical use for showing you my recent work or for doing
new work for you.)
Most employers in virtually any profession provide all the tools needed
by their employees. At most a company might require an employee to
purchase a short-sleeved white shirt (as with my job at Round Table
Pizza) or a uniform (advanced from first paycheque), but not the whole
computer system where software will be developed. When I worked for
SCU, they provided the IBM 1620 computer I used. When I worked for
Four-Phase, they provided the IV/70 computer I used. When I worked for
Stanford, they provided the PDP-10 and IBM-370 computers I used for the
various jobs there. If you claim to be an employer, but can't do the
common thing of providing a company computer for your employees to use
in developing software for you, your company totally sucks. It is
*you*, the prospective employer, not me, the prospective employee, who
needs to get a decent computer system for your employees to use.
> what I wrote earlier about only commercial experience being counted
Please supply a clear definition of what *you* mean by "commercial
experience". I have no idea whether you refer *only* to software that
is sold in shrink-wrapped packs (CD-ROMs for example) in stores, or
also software that is distributed invisibly over the net in return for
e-money, or also software that isn't itself sold but which is used
in-house to solve practical problems for the employer, or also software
that is used in support of research that offers prestege to the
employer, or also software that is commercial quality but which is
written only for my own use to solve real life problems I face, or
something else I can't even guess what you might possibly mean.
> regardless of what you have done outside paid employment, it doesn't
> count.
Commercial contracting isn't employment, according to the IRS, it's in
a completely different tax/income category. So it doesn't count??
Likewise all open-source software is a complete waste, because even if
you eventually get income from supporting the software, it doesn't
count because it isn't formal employment?
> Work you do on your own is generally not reviewed by anyone, not used
> by many people and therefore has no external evaluation, only his on
> subjective opinion,
That is a good point but only for *some* non-commercial work. Work for
which I got paid, as part of a university research project, is not
commercial in the shrink-wrap nor in any other software-for-sale sense,
yet still is reviewed by my supervisor. Work for which I didn't get
paid, but which is used substantially by other people, such as my
document formatting for XGP, is reviewed by the users, who choose
whether to use it for free or not use it. If they choose to make heavy
use of my software, as Bill Gosper and several others did, I consider
that a recommendation that my work is worthwhile.
For some other of my work, I put up free demos on the net, so that
random people could see my work and try it and announce how they like
it.
> which to an employer is worth very little.
Do you speak for all employers there??
> if he had spent the last 10 years working on some open source
> projects ...
I already spent enough years of my life doing that in the past.
Why should I spend yet another ten years doing the same thing?
> In the last 10+ years, the only things he seems to have produced are
> some pretty skanky CGi apps.
You are quite ignorant of what I've done. I'm not going to waste my
time posting the information about my accomplishments that I've already
posted before. If you want to cease being ignorant, go look up what I
already posted.
Use your limited bandwidth for something constructive,
rather than waste everybody else's please, Robert.
Follow-Ups set appropriately.
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"Got no time to pack my bag, my foot's outside the door"
Led Zeppelin 'The Ocean'
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Why each temporary job ended, duh! (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-013@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> I suspect he has never been told the reasons why he lost each job he
> had.
That remark would apply in only one case, when Four-Phase told me they
didn't think I'd be able to maintain the COBOL compiler all by myself,
but told the state employment department that they dismissed me because
I'm disabled, whereby they were not obligated to pay their share of my
unemployment benefits.
However in all other cases I had a clear reason for the job ending:
SCU payroll program: Job accomplished, all done.
SCU pre-registration program: Job accomplished, all done.
NMR research: Job accomplished, all done, and a better job awaiting.
Remote sensing: After having me add features in SAIL program, then
having me convert entire program to MainSail, they discovered MainSail
had too many system bugs, so they decided to convert it all to Fortran,
and one of their other employees had more Fortran experience so they
decided to have him do the conversion, and I had another job waiting
anyway.
Various porting jobs at IMSSS: Job accomplished, all done.
Research on instructible robot: We'd gone about as far as we could go
with the cruddy context-free parser we were using, and another
department was using a new parser we didn't have access to, and they
had more urgent use for me on another porting project.
CAI-Calculus: Program all working, end of five-year funding, couldn't
get funding for follow-on project for CAI-precalculus due to recession.
Tracking lineaments: One-person company had only $1500 total cash
available to hire me in middle of recession, I had used up $1492 of
that and reached a good stopping point, and any more significant unit
of work would have gone past the available cash, and it would have been
unreasonble for me to work an additional 25 minutes to use up that last
eight dollars and not be able to accomplish anything worthwhile during
that itty bitty final time period.
> I think its very likely Robert has been given all sorts of made up
> reasons for why his jobs were terminated or contracts were not
> renewed ...
The only time we had a follow-on project planned was that
CAI-precalculus. It wasn't just me laid off. It was our entire staff,
appx. ten employees, except my supervisor who was strung along another
year, and the head honcho who retired and closed down the entire
institute at that time.
In the majority of cases, where I was hired just to perform a single
major task, either helping port some software system to a new platform,
or writing a single major application from scratch, it was obvious from
the start that as soon as the task was completed the job would be
ended, and that's exactly what happened. In all those cases we had
success, either working program put into full use, or existing software
now working just fine on new platform.
If you honestly believe I was lied to in any of those cases regarding
the reason for the project ending, please explain your perverse opinion
to the whole world here.
Use your limited bandwidth for something constructive,
rather than waste everybody else's please, Robert.
Follow-Ups set appropriately.
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"So I've got some advice for you, little buddy,.."
Tool 'Hooker With A Penis'
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Ulrich owes me an explanation (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-010@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> The DiffAlg was only an abstract??
Only the abstract was published. The main paper was nicely printed but
not accepted by any publisher because of only about ten people in the
world who would be interested in details of such a specific result.
> You could create or participate in an open-source project and mention that.
I already did that. Nobody cares.
> > I do too have 22+ years experience at writing
> > computer software.
> Then mention some practical key examples that are appropriate to the job
> you're applying to.
That's not possible in a single general-purpose resume that I post on
the net for everyone to see. In fact in customized resumes for single
jobs I already do what you suggest, and it doesn't get me any contact
back from the employer/agency that posted the ad. I suspect that the
customized resume is no good because it's based on the general resume
which you and everyone says is complete crap (except for Jennie and
Elizabeth at FFW who helped me work on the 2003 edit to the 1998 resume
and believe their handiwork is just perfect, and Blanche at DeAnza who
converted the format to MS-Word without making any major changes to the
information). I've gotten advice how to improve the latest general
resume, but the advice is contradictory, both to itself and to really
good advice on Web sites and from other good-advice sources.
> If your unpaid work resulted in anything useful (that interests the
> $COMPANY), just mention it.
I already do that in the case of customized resumes (see earlier above).
> > You don't even know what my skills are! The total time I've spent
> > writing computer software is at least equivalent to 22 years fulltime.
> We know what you said they are. But we don't see lots of cool
> applications that could have been written in that time.
A lot of my work was research, rather than practical applications, such
as my work on mathematical and board games, and fractals and base&digit
systems, and the paid work on English language interface for
instructable robot where I invented some new methods that might be
useful someday but the software I wrote up to the end of funding wasn't
itself of any immediate practical use, and my symbolic algebra package
for differential algebra.
A lot of my work was R&D, where I had to do a lot of trying different
approaches before I found the right way to do it. For example, for my
spam-reporting software I tried ad hoc semi-parsers, but then I
discovered cases where they produced the wrong IP number, a number
forged by the spammer rather than supplied by the SMTP server from the
TCP/IP source. At that point I decided I absolutely had to start from
scratch writing a true parser, only to discover that there were more
than a hundred different formats of Received lines in headers, causing
my work on the parser to take several weeks, but finally I had it fully
working and could replace the old semi-parser with the new genuine
parser and resume running the main program.
Did you actually look at the list of my major accomplishments which I
posted? Here's a quick one-[compound]-word-per-accomplishments
checklist for you to consider: SegMat, languagerecognizer,
flashcardsequencer, XGP, mathprint, calculusderivations, directories,
pcnet, compression, linrel, MaasInfo, SeekJobIndex, lineaments,
sourcesyntax, treeinfo, imageprocess, NMR, payroll, preregistration,
filecopy, cobolfixes, differentialalgebra. If that list doesn't look
familiar, then I presume you didn't even bother to read that list of
accomplishments before complaining that you don't see enough
accomplishments to represent 22 years of programming work. If that's
the case, you need to go back and look at where I posted a link to that
list of accomplishments which has been online for years sitting there
waiting for you to see it even before I posted the link again:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.programming/msg/5aba4006df4e0f70
Message-ID: <·················@Yahoo.Com>
In any case, obviously some of those accomplishments aren't software
applications themselves, but most are, and the few that are something
else involved software work to make them possible. Also those (by
coincidence 22) accomplishments are just the major highlights of my 22
years of software work. So do you consider 22 major accomplishments,
each worth listing individually, and hundreds of lesser accomplishments
not listed there, would ordinarily be achieved by average programmers
in much less than 22 years of effort, so that you are justifieid in
basically calling me a liar to claim 22 years experience with such a
small amount of major accomplishments (appx. one per year)?
The message you wrote, basically calling me a liar, was written five
days after I posted that link to my list of accomplishments, which has
been sitting there ever since early 2001, more than five years ago, so
you had plenty of time to look at it. So I expect you to go through my
checklist and tell me which of those items refer to software you would
admit are "cool applications", which are not software applications at
all so they aren't to be considered here, and which are software
applications but you don't consider them "cool" so you need to explain
what's un-cool about each of them. Hint: One is not software, it's
math. One is not a software application, it's just data. One is not an
application, it's a callable utility package. Two aren't complete
programs, they're just fixes I made to somebody else's programs. One is
not a useful appliation, it's just a demo of a software technique I was
researching that turned out to have surprizingly good results. The
remaining sixteen (16) are useful software applications, and I expect
you to tell me which of those are not "cool" in your opinion, to
attempt to justify you basically accusing me of lying about my 22 years
software programming experience.
Also, you said "... we don't see ..." when you call me a liar, so
please tell me who else you're speaking for there. I would like that
other person to likewise state which of my 16 major practical software
application accomplishments are not "cool" in that person's opinion. If
you were speaking only for yourself, you owe me an apology for posting
a public message basically saying the you and other people all consider
me to be lying about my 22 years software experience. If you were in
fact speaking for more than just yourself, you owe me the name of the
other person you speak for who is with you calling me a liar.
> Re: Ulrich owes me an explanation (was: Resume questions, how convey?)
Just a note to clarify that Ulrich, like everbody else *here*,
as well as aahh.. yes,..
Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.lisp
c.p. and c.l.l.
Owes you exactly *nothing*!
Further, you are abusing these groups to chase your own personal
agenda and it is OFF-TOPIC for these groups.
Follow-Ups directed to alt.kook, which probably does not exist,
but should.
P*SS OFF!
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"The shackles of commitment fell, in pieces on the ground"
Led Zeppelin 'Achilles Last Stand'
Hm, first of all I don't think I owe you anything, but well, if you want
a post, you can get one today... (sorry to everybody else who is forced
to read this)
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> Then mention some practical key examples that are appropriate to the job
>> you're applying to.
>
> That's not possible in a single general-purpose resume that I post on
> the net for everyone to see. In fact in customized resumes for single
That's why it's called applying. I don't think many people search the
web hunting for potential employees. Even if they did, I'm not sure
they would be intrigued by your website.
> Did you actually look at the list of my major accomplishments which I
> posted? Here's a quick one-[compound]-word-per-accomplishments
I don't have the time or interest to do that. Sorry.
If your job applications are as long as your posts (or just the
paragraphs) here, no wonder nobody reads them.
> The message you wrote, basically calling me a liar, was written five
> days after I posted that link to my list of accomplishments, which has
> been sitting there ever since early 2001, more than five years ago, so
> you had plenty of time to look at it. So I expect you to go through my
> checklist and tell me which of those items refer to software you would
> admit are "cool applications", which are not software applications at
> all so they aren't to be considered here, and which are software
> applications but you don't consider them "cool" so you need to explain
> what's un-cool about each of them. Hint: One is not software, it's
Short answer: no, I won't. I also don't see where I called you a liar.
I don't think I'd mean that you lied. Most posts in here revolve
around people not wanting to help you any more with you job search,
because they have other stuff to do (and this is c.l.l, just to remind
you), and that part of your situation is self-inflicted and could be
changed. That's what I mean, too. I'm tired of this thread.
> math. One is not a software application, it's just data. One is not an
> application, it's a callable utility package. Two aren't complete
> programs, they're just fixes I made to somebody else's programs. One is
> not a useful appliation, it's just a demo of a software technique I was
> researching that turned out to have surprizingly good results. The
> remaining sixteen (16) are useful software applications, and I expect
> you to tell me which of those are not "cool" in your opinion, to
> attempt to justify you basically accusing me of lying about my 22 years
> software programming experience.
Wherever I said that... You said yourself that you don't have that long
of an employed history, and that's what people call "programming
experience". Outside employment I'm sure you did write some stuff, but
I don't care enough, nor have the time, to evaluate that.
> Also, you said "... we don't see ..." when you call me a liar, so
> please tell me who else you're speaking for there. I would like that
Well, once in a while I did follow some link of yours, but didn't find
anything that kept me on that page for more than a few seconds. Maybe I
missed a good piece of software, dunno.
> other person to likewise state which of my 16 major practical software
> application accomplishments are not "cool" in that person's opinion. If
> you were speaking only for yourself, you owe me an apology for posting
> a public message basically saying the you and other people all consider
> me to be lying about my 22 years software experience. If you were in
I don't consider you lying. IIRC someone else here wrote that coding
isn't the same as employed software experience, and the latter one
counts. I agree (even if coding experience is nice, too). I'm not an
employer, so I likewise have to live with that fact.
> fact speaking for more than just yourself, you owe me the name of the
> other person you speak for who is with you calling me a liar.
Ok, I don't care about your stuff. For what other people think, see for
yourself. The way I interpreted most posts here that I glanced at, is
that they carried that vibe, too.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > Get yourself an instance of postgres to learn with ...
>
> If you require me to do that, you'll have to provide the money to buy
> it for my Macintosh with only 17 megabytes unused disk space, or for my
> laptop with no working modem or diskette drive or CD-Rom drive, hence
> no way to install it without first fixing the modem.
I browsed your 'situation' document:
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/mySituation.html
and suspected you have an external modem connected to your Mac, right?
I wonder if you've tried to connect that modem to your laptop's
external
serial port. Didn't that work?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > What about the year you graduated?
>
> Only an idiot would make it that easy for a potential employer to see
> that I'm over 40 and toss my resume in the trash without even glancing
> at the rest of it. You want me to be an idiot, I presume?
Probably not. ;-)
My site has many career and resume articles fro different 'job search
situations'. For example, if you consider that the most important
'employability' factor is you age, see these articles:
http://www.easyjob.net/career/job-interview-tips-for-seniors.html
http://www.easyjob.net/resume/senior-resume.html
http://www.easyjob.net/resume
If you have been unemployed for a long time and you think that is
reducing your chances of getting a new job, please see the articles
resulting from this search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=gaps+site%3Awww.easyjob.net
I'm not aware of your situation, but have you considered other options,
besides getting a job? You don't need a lot of money to start a
software business, for instance.
Good luck! :-)
"Fernando" <···@easyjob.net> wrote:
>I'm not aware of your situation, but have you considered other options,
>besides getting a job? You don't need a lot of money to start a
>software business, for instance.
The amount of money necessary to start a business depends on the type
of business, among other things. You may only need a few thousand US$
to build a small prototype, but you may need far more to build out an
infrastructure to support a client base of substantial size. Your
ability to attract investors may depend on being able to support the
substantial client base.
--gregbo
gds at best dot com
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...)
Date:
Message-ID: <3nfva6F1aum5U1@individual.net>
···@best.cut.here.com wrote:
> The amount of money necessary to start a business depends on the type
> of business, among other things. You may only need a few thousand US$
> to build a small prototype, but you may need far more to build out an
You don't need anything to *build* software, as long as you can pay the
rent and feed yourself (and all other developers). Of course that's a
problem not to be neglected ;), but if you can stay at your parents' for
instance it might be cheap.
> infrastructure to support a client base of substantial size. Your
> ability to attract investors may depend on being able to support the
> substantial client base.
That's true. But server resources are cheap anyway, and hiring support
people wouldn't kill a (working) business, either, so I guess it depends
on how much support you'd have to do all by yourself (since I'm afraid
you don't scale ;) ).
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
>···@best.cut.here.com wrote:
>> The amount of money necessary to start a business depends on the type
>> of business, among other things. You may only need a few thousand US$
>> to build a small prototype, but you may need far more to build out an
>
>You don't need anything to *build* software, as long as you can pay the
>rent and feed yourself (and all other developers). Of course that's a
>problem not to be neglected ;), but if you can stay at your parents' for
>instance it might be cheap.
Well, I was thinking of the cost of a few computers, a LAN, UPC, net
connection, web site (or putting a server in a colo), printer, etc.
Add rent if you can't start the business somewhere where you don't
have to pay for the use of the space.
--gregbo
gds at best dot com
....
>>> The amount of money necessary to start a business...
This has strayed far off topic for c.l.j.programmer.
Please cease cross-posting these (interminable) threads
to this group.
[ F'Ups set to comp.programming only. ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"..a government for hire and a combat site."
R.E.M. 'It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)'
[edit of previous post]
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
>···@best.cut.here.com wrote:
>> The amount of money necessary to start a business depends on the type
>> of business, among other things. You may only need a few thousand US$
>> to build a small prototype, but you may need far more to build out an
>
>You don't need anything to *build* software, as long as you can pay the
>rent and feed yourself (and all other developers). Of course that's a
>problem not to be neglected ;), but if you can stay at your parents' for
>instance it might be cheap.
Well, I was thinking of the cost of a few computers, a LAN, UPS, net
connection, web site (or putting a server in a colo), printer, etc.
Add rent if you can't start the business somewhere where you don't
have to pay for the use of the space.
--gregbo
gds at best dot com
From: Kent M Pitman
Subject: Re: Cost of starting a software business (was: Resume questions, how convey? (was: How much should I charge fo...))
Date:
Message-ID: <u4q97eewm.fsf@nhplace.com>
[ comp.lang.lisp only; http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PFAQ/cross-posting.html ]
···@best.cut.here.com writes:
> [edit of previous post]
>
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
> >···@best.cut.here.com wrote:
> >> The amount of money necessary to start a business depends on the type
> >> of business, among other things. You may only need a few thousand US$
> >> to build a small prototype, but you may need far more to build out an
> >
> >You don't need anything to *build* software, as long as you can pay the
> >rent and feed yourself (and all other developers). Of course that's a
> >problem not to be neglected ;), but if you can stay at your parents' for
> >instance it might be cheap.
>
> Well, I was thinking of the cost of a few computers, a LAN, UPS, net
> connection, web site (or putting a server in a colo), printer, etc.
> Add rent if you can't start the business somewhere where you don't
> have to pay for the use of the space.
There's a difference between writing software and "starting a
business". Anyone can write a product, by pretending it's a hobby and
avoiding the scrutiny of government. But a business is generally
something that's registered, taxed, regulated, ... it generally has a
first class identity that can be inspected from the outside, a tax
status, various government ID numbers. It's a matter of record when
it appears and disappears. It's considerably more effort and expense
exactly because it cannot be done privately. One can be "in business"
sometimes as an individual, but if you start "a business" (with a name
distinct from your own), it's generally more complicated, and
consequently more expensive. Then again, many of the activities of
starting a business are tax deductible, and mostly your hobbies are
not, so you have some incentive to expose your intent. Then again again,
if you're not making money, tax deductions often don't matter. They
might to the parents--the ones paying for the couch--but to be effective,
you probably have to make them legally involved in your business.
Personally, I have an accountant to make sure I don't mess up the money
part. But then, that's not cheap either. And so it goes, the spinning
of the web as you fill in all the details...
From: Bulent Murtezaoglu
Subject: Re: Cost of starting a software business
Date:
Message-ID: <87fysrglk3.fsf@p4.internal>
>>>>> "KMP" == Kent M Pitman <Kent> writes:
[...]
KMP> There's a difference between writing software and "starting a
KMP> business". Anyone can write a product, by pretending it's a
KMP> hobby and avoiding the scrutiny of government. But a
KMP> business is generally something that's registered, taxed,
KMP> regulated, ... it generally has a first class identity that
KMP> can be inspected from the outside, a tax status, various
KMP> government ID numbers. It's a matter of record when it
KMP> appears and disappears. It's considerably more effort and
KMP> expense exactly because it cannot be done privately. One can
KMP> be "in business" sometimes as an individual, but if you start
KMP> "a business" (with a name distinct from your own), it's
KMP> generally more complicated, and consequently more expensive.
[...]
Hmm, I dunno what it is like in NH and MA, but this didn't quite ring
true for NY (it does ring true for Istanbul but I doubt that's the
jurisdiction you had in mind). If you mean with a 'first class
identity', 'suable idependently' then it _does_ get considerably more
expensive, you are correct. On the other hand, an entity not
operating under your own name can be had for $35 + possibly 1/2 hr. in
NY. I happened to know this, but google is your friend for other
states. eg:
http://www.erie.gov/depts/government/clerk/applications_permits_dba.phtml
Right at the start, especially if the amounts are low and you go the DBA
route, the legal expenses in time and money (while they do exist) are
really minimal. "Doing Business As" is the keyword you want if you
will search, since DBA also stands for Database Administrator.
Kent's advice _is_ sound, consult the pros, of course. I just wanted
to point out that the expense does not need to be high. (I am unsure
if the gov't will do anything bad to you if you call your business
Joe's Wondersoft and keep on using your Joe Schmoe bank account w/o
filing anything. Possibly not, but your bank will probably ask for
some kind of DBA paperwork if you want Joe's Wondersoft checks.)
BM
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: "Phlip" <·········@yahoo.com>
> > I think Robert has successfully pissed off every head-hunter in town.
>
> Are you talking about after I patiently waited more than ten years for
> even one of them to find me an interview, and finally after more than
> ten years of their total incompetance, finally I start speaking out in
> public and they don't like me telling the world how incompetant they
> are? Frankly I don't care if I piss them off at this point.
Robert, the mere fact these people didn't get you a single interview
during a period which most would have considered a boom time for
programmers should be tellng you something. These agencies get paid
for filling positions - they don't really care about you as an
individual - your just another commodity to them - if they can fit you
in somewhere, they will. Now, if you were dealing with them for 10
years, you cannot claim they were incompetent because incompetent
agencies of this type simply do not survive for 10 years.
So, what we have is a situation where you provided some details and a
resume to job agencies during a boom period in which they undoubtably
found positions for thousands of other programmers, but did not find
you a single interview - hmmm, lets think about that and possibly
consider that maybe its you who is not doing something right. Maybe
its a simple as you not putting your resume into an acceptable format?
Having seen some of the staff you have on the web and only just a
while ago following one of the links you posted to your "resume", I
would say this is almost certainly a contributing factor.
Your resume is completely incorrect - its too long, its badly
formatted and lots of it is totally irrelevent in the current
market. You need to do a well formatted CV, clearly labelled in
sections with brief but informative text. Something like (but properly
formatted)
Name:
Address:
Phone
Key Skill (dot points only!)
e.g. * Strong written and verbal communications skill
* Self-motivated and able to work independently or within a team
* Proven ability to multi-task and prioritise effectively in an
environment involving rapid change and conflicting priorities
* Familiar with xxxxx project management methodologies
* etc
Employment Histor (from most recent to oldest)
Period Position
Employer
Key Duties
....
Education/Training (from most recent to oldest)
Date Qualification
Institution
(Optional Details - such as thesis topic or research project)
Programming Lnaguages
(Usually, you would only include languages you have used commercially)
Language | Period Used | Last Used |
Publications
(List of any publications you have, where they were published and an
indication if, for journals etc, they were refereed)
Hobbies/Interest/Private Projects (very brief)
References/Referees
Name
Position
company
contact details
> Or are you saying that somehow I pissed them off way back in 1991 when
> I first started the current sequence of asking them if they can find me
> a job because I have just recently (1991.Sep.01) become unemployed
> after being steadily employed for ten years? If you're making that
> claim, please present evidence of something I said or did way back in
> 1991 to piss off all appx. hundred of them such that that's the reason
> they haven't gotten me even one interview in all the time from 1991.Sep
> until the more recent time when my patience was exhausted and I started
> my public complaining about their incompetance.
You may not have pissed them off - but its obvious you either didn't
present yourself well or failed to provide the right sort of
information.
> > If Robert's interactions with this newsgroup are similar to his
> > interactions with them...
>
> My interactions with them during the first several years since I became
> unemployed was totally different. I was totally polite and patient. I
> never contacted them unless there was a job ad that I wanted to respond
> to, except for some cases where I used the Yellow Pages to call them at
> random to ask whether they knew of any openings in my area and might be
> able to help me find a job. Never a complaint about them for quite a
> number of years. I was the total nice guy who is ignored by everyone in
> favor of the squeeky wheel that is irritating enough gets noticed.
Its not about being irritating enough to be noticed - its about
presenting yourself in such a way that they immediately think of you
when an appropriate position comes up. For example, if you only listed
all your experience with assembler on PDPs etc, then its unlikely you
would be considered except in the very unlikely case where some
company had an old PDP-10 and just happened to need an assembly
programmer. However, if on the other hand you presented yourself as
someone with a proven track record of workinig in assembler, someone
with a good grasp of low level hardware programming and someone
capable oflearning, then possibly you would be thought of when that
job comes up workinig on developing software for that new chip
xxxxxx.
> Even now my interactions with them are non-complaining, merely sending
> my tailored resume in response to their job ad, and waiting patiently
> for them to respond, and occasionally when I have a new general resume
> I FAX it to a whole bunch of them to alert them that I'm still looking
> for employment and to get back onto their "hot list" of resumes at the
> top of their attention spam, and only one responded in any way, to
> complain that they're accepting resumes *only* via MicroSoft word
> attachment to e-mail, which I have no way to send from my Unix shell
> account, so it took several months before I could find a way to get a
> resume to that agency, and then it just went into a black hole.
> (Does anybody want the name of that MS-Word-only agency?)
I'm sorry, but this is just more pathetic moaning and not at all a
good advertisment for your abilities or even your problem solvinig
skills. Technically, there is no reason you can't sent an MS Word
document as an attachment from a Unix shell account - I've been doing
this since MS Word first existed. There are plenty of Unix utilities
to help do this. If your argument is that you couldn't get your MS
Word file to your unix shell account because you only have a dumb
terminal connect, thats rubbish as well - there are utilites to allow
this - kermit, rz/sz etc. You could probably even do it from your
library. Where there is a will there is a way!
> > I have started charging per line-item in the feature request list.
> > That means if I estimate X to take 30 minutes, and it does, I win.
>
> I would really like to bill that way, but I've never found anyone
> willing to contract or otherwise pay for my services on that basis.
> By the way, how much money (US$ please) would you charge for a feature
> that took you only a half hour to implement and debug and test and
> integrate with the overall program and fully document as addendum to
> the regular program documentation?
>
> I especially like that idea during the initial stages of working with a
> given client/employer, when I am not sure I'll ever get paid, and they
> aren't sure I can really do the work, so we incrementally build trust
> by my delivering and their paying for a little bit at a time.
>
> But nobody has any money to pay for any custom software, only packaged
> software from the big vendors. I can't even find somebody to let me
> implement something for free as a demo of my ability to do the
> particular kind of software work. For example, there's a guy with
> offices near here who has written a desktop C++ application that he
> would like to interface to CGI. I explained how I like to write CGI
> applications, and it'd be easy for me to write a CGI front-end to his
> C++ application if he just tells me which two or three use cases to
> start with as my demo and then after I get a toy version of the
> interface running he tells me the actual C++ function/method calls into
> his program so I can convert my toy interface into a real interface
> into his real program. But he hasn't been able to get any new buyers
> for his program, CGI or otherwise, and he's spending all his time
> looking for buyers, so he doesn't even have time to spend ten minutes
> writing me an e-mail listing the use cases he'd like to see in my first
> free demo, and as far as I know he hasn't even had time to try the
> CGI/C++ demo I already have online as part of my how-to-HelloPlus
> tutorial project, wherein my demo calls a routine to decode the
> URL-encoded.form contents, then fetches the various fields by name to
> demonstrate that it really does have them decoded individually. That
> guy is the closest I've come to finding anyone interested in
> contracting/hiring my services in the past several years.
Firstly, I would be extremely skeptical about how well a CGI wrapper
to provide a web interface to an already written program would
work. I've seen this attempted before and its never very robust or
reliable unless the underlying program itself is extremely basic.
Secondly, forget all about that stuff regarding decoding URI elements
etc - thats just trivial stuff, a real no brainer for which you can
usually find pre-existing libraries/modules to do all the work
anyway. You need to come up with really original and inovative stuff
if you want to impress anyone with your abilites - decoding URI
strings is a student exercise.
> > And it shows my confidence in my estimates.
>
> Actually I interpret it oppositely to you: If I bill on the basis of
> half-hour tasks, then it means I need at the end of a half hour to get
> feedback whether my estimate was correct or not before I proceed to the
> next half hour, that I don't trust my own estimates longer than a half
> hour into the future. This is great for me just starting at contract
> work like this, where if I make a horrible mistake in estimation, it
> takes me five hours instead of the half hour I estimated, off by a full
> order of magnitude, still it's only 4.5 hours of unpaid work for my
> mistake, no big deal, less time than I spend responding to newsgroup
> posts in the average day. It's not like if I contract for a job on the
> basis it'll take me a half year and it actually takes me five years of
> which I get paid only for the first half year, and I don't get paid one
> penny until after the product is finally delivered 4.5 years after
> promised, if the buyer hasn't found a way to back out of the contract
> already by then.
Forget about consulting - you are almost guaranteed never to get any
ral work consulting because you have no recent proven track record and
no track record in current technologies. Most people who move into
consulting do so after working commercially for some time and usually
have customers (at least one decent one) lined up before they even
begin.
Robert, I hate to say it, but I don't think you will get a programming
job. Apart from the problem of not having working for 14 years, your
age is going to work against you. Assuming you were 18 when you
started your degree in 1963, you must be now in your late 50s. Your
technical commercial experience is outdated and if your lucky, you
probably only have around 10 more years of productive work left in you
(I'm being devils advocate here and looking at it from the orientation
of a prospective employer). Why would we employ you at this stage when
there are both plenty of experienced younger programmers around and
even the recent graduates have more experience with current
technologies than you? Unless you can convince an employer that you
have something which the others don't and its something the employer
considers valuable, you have no hope.
I have to wonder why you haven't been trying to get more specific
programming jobs that relate to what seems to have been one of your
strength areas. If you have a strong and sound math background, why
not look for jobs with companies doing software which has a strong
mathematical basis - modelling, communications, signal processing
etc. Why are you even bothering trying to compete in an area which is
flooded with programmers (Java/Web) when thre are companies out therer
who are constantly frustrated at not being able to find enough skilled
programmers who also have skills in mathemtaics?
Play to your strengths!
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug15-013@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> Your resume is completely incorrect - its too long
Let me check it right now:
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.98B.txt
That's 60 lines of text. You're correct, it's too long too many lines.
How many lines is the maximum for a resume?
> its badly formatted
It looks formatted pretty well given the one-page restriction and plain
ASCII text, but perhaps you have some specific changes you'd like?
> and lots of it is totally irrelevent in the current market.
What specifically? I'd be glad to cut out parts that the majority of
people in this newsgroup consider so grossly worthless that I shouldn't
include them even though I spent a lot of time doing those things and
it would really be dishonest to exclude them, but if dishonesty by
omission is necessary to get a job I'm willing to bend. So which items
specifically should I delete?
> You need to do a well formatted CV
No, I most definitely do not want a CV for applying for non-academic
jobs doing software development.
http://jobsearch.about.com/cs/curriculumvitae/a/curriculumvitae.htm
http://www.careers.ucr.edu/students/graduates/cvsample.html
http://jobsearch.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurograduate.com%2Fplan2.html
http://www.quintcareers.com/curriculum_vitae.html
http://www.careers.ucr.edu/Students/Graduates/CV/
I want a resume, not a CV, because a resume, not a CV, is what is asked
by *all* job ads I've seen in this area.
> clearly labelled in sections with brief but informative text.
It's already that. What are you complaining about??
> Employment Histor (from most recent to oldest)
My most recent employment is more than ten years ago. I've gotten good
advice *not* to make my lack of recent employment a major attraction in
my resume, or it'd be tossed before any of the good stuff would ever be
seen.
I've also been advised very strongly not to include any employment more
than ten years ago, and to only summarize anything between five and ten
years ago, not list it individually.
> Programming Lnaguages
> (Usually, you would only include languages you have used commercially)
I've never used any programming language commercially, except 2.5 weeks
of Think C 9n 1992.
> if you only listed all your experience with assembler on PDPs etc,
> then its unlikely you would be considered except in the very unlikely
> case where some company had an old PDP-10 and just happened to need an
> assembly programmer. However, if on the other hand you presented
> yourself as someone with a proven track record of workinig in
> assembler, someone with a good grasp of low level hardware programming
> and someone capable oflearning, then possibly you would be thought of
> when that job comes up workinig on developing software for that new
> chip xxxxxx.
Well there was one resume I wrote that didn't say any specifics at all,
no PDP-10 or 6502 or 8080 or 68000 or IBM-1620 or IBM-1130, only the
number/variety of different things I did to emphasize how I've learned
so many different languages/environments/applicationAreas that surely I
can easily learn five or ten more on a new job.
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
It's only 57 lines, three lines shorter than the other. Maybe you'd
like it better?
> forget all about that stuff regarding decoding URI elements
> etc - thats just trivial stuff, a real no brainer for which you can
> usually find pre-existing libraries/modules to do all the work
> anyway.
I agree. That's why for C and C++ I used Google to find a free set of
code to do the form-contents-decoding, not part of a large library, but
just a standalone piece of already-debugged (almost, I had to fix a few
bugs before they'd work on this system) that would be small enough that
I could show it as part of my demo of how to do CGI/C and CGI/C++
software. I made sure the C code was pure C, no cheating by using stuff
that the Gnu C/C++ compiler or Visual-C++ compiler could fake in C
program even though it wasn't valid ANSI C but was actually C++. Also I
made sure the C++ code was true C++ code in both standard and style,
not C code that got minimal transformation to run under C++
environment but which was actually C at heart and only sham of C++.
> you are almost guaranteed never to get any ral work consulting
> because you have no recent proven track record and no track record in
> current technologies.
I tried looking for regular employment for years, but lots of people
told me that was impossible, that I need to get some short-term
contract work, and then with that proven track record some company
might risk hiring me on the longer term, in fact one of the short-term
contracts might develop into a long-term job. So you see I get so much
contradictory advice that I really have to ignore most of it, and
accept only that which doesn't contract a lot of other advice I also
get.
> Your technical commercial experience is outdated
My only technical commercial experience, except for 2.5 weeks in 1992,
is within the past 2.2 years. How can you say such recent experience is
outdated? Are Visual Basic, C, C++, and Java, all outdated, in your
opinion?
> Unless you can convince an employer that you have something which the
> others don't and its something the employer considers valuable, you
> have no hope.
I have a lot of good talent and skills, valuable to an employer, that
most others don't have. Maybe you can help me convince an employer to
recognize that?
> I have to wonder why you haven't been trying to get more specific
> programming jobs that relate to what seems to have been one of your
> strength areas.
Your question is based on a false premise. I **have** been trying to
get programming jobs in areas where I have expertise (educational
software, information retrieval/access, etc.), but I've never been able
to find anyone interested in my skills in those areas. The closest I
ever came was when my former boss referred me to a company that did
educational software for children, and took me on a tour of what they
were doing, but none of it was actually educational where it actually
makes sure a child learns something, it was all play-explore stuff
which is fine for spending idle time getting familiar with some stuff
that looks interesting but is totally insufficient at making sure the
child ever really learned anything. It's like a computer version of the
child watching Sesame Street all day. Yeah, the child eventually picks
up a few things here and there, but there's no competance at anything.
So anyway I was told they aren't interested in any software that
actually teaches the child anything, only in making sure the child
enjoys the experience of playing with the computer games, so none of my
experience is of any value there.
> why not look for jobs with companies doing software which has a
> strong mathematical basis - modelling, communications, signal
> processing etc.
I have no experience in the kind of modeling you're talking about, nor
in any signal processing whatsoever. The only communications jobs I've
seen required specific experience managing/configuring TCP/IP stacks,
which I've never done.
> Why are you even bothering trying to compete in an area which is
> flooded with programmers (Java/Web)
Because Java is my second-best language, my best being Lisp, and there
are no jobs whatsoever in Lisp, whereas 2.5 years ago I actually saw a
job ad for Java that I would have qualified for a year later. So I'm
only one year away from a chance at a Java job, whereas twenty years
away from any other kind of job.
> Play to your strengths!
Show me one job opening that matches my strenghths in Lisp programming
or computer-assisted instruction.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Let me check it right now:
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.98B.txt
> That's 60 lines of text. You're correct, it's too long too many lines.
> How many lines is the maximum for a resume?
For a newb resume, one page one page only only only one page.
For a senior, drop a book on them. But make _certain_ they need to read only
the minum possible number of lines to make the pass-fail decision.
The Objective is where you pack into a few lines all the wisdom legitimately
grown from "20 years experience developing medium-level tools and
incorporating them into applications". After that, you have nothing to prove
about general mentality.
Then, list the acronyms, and let folks skip to the jobs with those acronyms
easily.
The decision "I refuse to work for anyone so stupid they only look at
acronyms" is closely related to the decision "I refuse to learn an acronym
and prepare my resume, so a hirer will know that I will hit the ground
running once hired." I'd jog before a marathon, so I'd learn an acronym
before getting the gig that asks for it.
Save up for and pay for .NET experience. (And GNU Mono counts.) The hirers
are sick and tired of only getting kiddies who know .NET but don't know how
to think to avoid debugging. They would be delighted to locate someone with
long-term experience with big bad projects, _and_ with .NET.
Replace ".NET" in my paragraph with any other peesashit new wave
vendor-lockin-oriented toolkit out there...
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Not debugging? (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug22-004@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
> The hirers are sick and tired of only getting kiddies who know .NET
> but don't know how to think to avoid debugging.
I suppose it depends on what you consider "debugging". I write a line
of code and immediately apply it to the data I have to see if it gives
the data I want. If not, I change that line of code. If it works, I
move on to writing the next line of code. When I get to the end of the
function I'm working on, I put all those lines together and unit-test
the entire function on the data I was just using and any other cases
that are useful to make sure it really works correctly in all cases.
You consider that not to be debugging, correct? What do you call it then?
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:53:44 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote or quoted :
>I suppose it depends on what you consider "debugging".
Debugging is fun. Programs behave strangely. You get to perform
experiments, make hypotheses, and gradually track down the problem. It
is like an Ruth Rendell mystery novel.
Debugging is far more entertaining than cranking out code that works
first time. I think people are sometimes unconsciously careless just
to gives themselves that challenge later.
This may also be the root of why programmers are so reluctant to use
any sort of tools that accelerate, automate or check programming.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com
Roedy Green wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:53:44 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
> see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote or quoted :
>
>> I suppose it depends on what you consider "debugging".
>
> Debugging is fun. Programs behave strangely. You get to perform
> experiments, make hypotheses, and gradually track down the problem. It
> is like an Ruth Rendell mystery novel.
You think it's fun if all you *really* want is a working program, to
poke its innards until you find the tumor? For hours maybe?
> Debugging is far more entertaining than cranking out code that works
> first time. I think people are sometimes unconsciously careless just
> to gives themselves that challenge later.
More entertaining that constructing a program, a living entity that
actually *does* something useful (hopefully)? That's like *walking* to
work if it takes you 20 minutes just by car...
> This may also be the root of why programmers are so reluctant to use
> any sort of tools that accelerate, automate or check programming.
Two reasons: learning curve and black magic. Show me a tool that boots
productivity while still being intuitive, easy to learn, and transparent
to see what the hell it does in the background and I'll take it.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
In article <··································@4ax.com>, look-
··@mindprod.com.invalid says...
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:53:44 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
> see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote or quoted :
>
> >I suppose it depends on what you consider "debugging".
>
> Debugging is fun. Programs behave strangely. You get to perform
> experiments, make hypotheses, and gradually track down the problem. It
> is like an Ruth Rendell mystery novel.
But then there's the pain when you find the bug after searching for
hours and it's something really really stupid.
- Gerry Quinn
From: Rob Warnock
Subject: Re: Not debugging? (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <s92dnSFFo-1yAJDeRVn-3w@speakeasy.net>
Roedy Green <·······@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
+---------------
| Debugging is fun. Programs behave strangely. You get to perform
| experiments, make hypotheses, and gradually track down the problem. It
| is like an Ruth Rendell mystery novel.
|
| Debugging is far more entertaining than cranking out code that works
| first time. I think people are sometimes unconsciously careless just
| to gives themselves that challenge later.
|
| This may also be the root of why programmers are so reluctant to use
| any sort of tools that accelerate, automate or check programming.
+---------------
This is why Tom De Marco suggests that to make any progress on software
quality one needs to change from talking about "bugs" to talking about
"defects". "Bugs" are cute; "defects" are at best... embarrassing.
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
> > The hirers are sick and tired of only getting kiddies who know .NET
> > but don't know how to think to avoid debugging.
>
> I suppose it depends on what you consider "debugging". I write a line
> of code and immediately apply it to the data I have to see if it gives
> the data I want. If not, I change that line of code. If it works, I
> move on to writing the next line of code. When I get to the end of the
> function I'm working on, I put all those lines together and unit-test
> the entire function on the data I was just using and any other cases
> that are useful to make sure it really works correctly in all cases.
> You consider that not to be debugging, correct? What do you call it then?
I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level IDE
which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace through the
code one line at a time and watch what happens to variables in a watch
window.
IMO this is a really bad trend because it means programmers stop
thinking about their code and how it actually works. this sort of
'debugging' tends to be extremely slow - especially for trivial type
bugs which would noramlly be spotted very quickly by someone wh
understands what their code is doing and how it works.
I cold be just from an 'old school' that pretty much predated
integrated IDEs with all the snazzy features that are common these
days. Debuggers were around, but often getting them and your code
configured to use them, loadinig them up and setting breakpoints etc,
was more effort than it was worth except for really difficult problems
which could not be solved by looking at the code and thinking about
what was going on at the logical level.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
On 24 Aug 2005 17:31:43 +1000, Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> wrote or
quoted :
>I cold be just from an 'old school' that pretty much predated
>integrated IDEs with all the snazzy features that are common these
>days.
Up until the mid 70s, you could only count on one compile/run a day
per project. You REALLY had to make it count. The alternative was to
book time at 3 AM to have exclusive use of the mainframe.
I think though, code that has been watched running catches more bugs
than just examining output. You need to account for any unexpected
run behaviour, not just unexpected final results.
The problem is, today's programs are so big, there is no way you could
exhaustively watch them over every code path.
Because finding and fixing bugs is so easy, we tend to be more
careless about writing code in the first place. Dr. Kennedy, the head
of our computer science department bragged that he had never had a
compile error. He was a fanatical desk checker.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: Not debugging? (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87vf1rhcbq.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Roedy Green <·······@mindprod.com.invalid> writes:
> I think though, code that has been watched running catches more bugs
> than just examining output. You need to account for any unexpected
> run behaviour, not just unexpected final results.
That may be true to a point. But unexepcted final results may be your
first indication that something isn't right.
> The problem is, today's programs are so big, there is no way you could
> exhaustively watch them over every code path.
Idealy you shouldn't have to do that. With interactive development,
using functional programming when practical, and testing small bits of
code as you go, you should be able to avoid bugs in the first place.
Programmers being human, this is not fool proof.
> Because finding and fixing bugs is so easy, we tend to be more
> careless about writing code in the first place.
Some bugs are easy to find. I don't think that all bugs are easy to
find. The worst bugs are probably the ones that are hard to find.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Not debugging? (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep02-013@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Roedy Green <·······@mindprod.com.invalid>
> Up until the mid 70s, you could only count on one compile/run a day
> per project.
Speak for yourself! As early as 1964 I was able to get more than one
compile/run per day, and often I would stay in the computer room late
at night to have the computer all to myself for hours. One night I was
there almost all night. When I got back to my car to drive home, and
turned on the car radio, all the radio stations were covering the
Crescent City tsunami from the Alaska earthquake, so you know one such
night down to the exact date!
Starting in 1970 I could get several compile/runs per hour on the PDP-10.
> today's programs are so big, there is no way you could exhaustively
> watch them over every code path.
But you can protect every module from bad data coming in, and from bugs
that cause bad data going out, and from bugs that cause syntactically
bad intermediate results, merely by having asserts at those point. (Of
course a bug that produces syntactically valid but inappropriate output
can't be detected by that means.)
> Because finding and fixing bugs is so easy, we tend to be more
> careless about writing code in the first place.
Speak for yourself! I'm not like that. I try to get each line of code
working correctly before moving to the next, and each function working
in all reasonable cases before starting work on the next function.
> Dr. Kennedy, the head of our computer science department bragged that
> he had never had a compile error. He was a fanatical desk checker.
Too bad he didn't know about Lisp, whereby he could replace a lot of
that desk checking with live testing, which is much faster and more
complete in some ways, leaving the desk checking only for those few
cases where it's better than live testing.
Tim X wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
>>>From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
>>>The hirers are sick and tired of only getting kiddies who know .NET
>>>but don't know how to think to avoid debugging.
>>
>>I suppose it depends on what you consider "debugging". I write a line
>>of code and immediately apply it to the data I have to see if it gives
>>the data I want. If not, I change that line of code. If it works, I
>>move on to writing the next line of code. When I get to the end of the
>>function I'm working on, I put all those lines together and unit-test
>>the entire function on the data I was just using and any other cases
>>that are useful to make sure it really works correctly in all cases.
>>You consider that not to be debugging, correct? What do you call it then?
>
>
> I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
> programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level IDE
> which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace through the
> code one line at a time and watch what happens to variables in a watch
> window.
>
> IMO this is a really bad trend because it means programmers stop
> thinking about their code and how it actually works. this sort of
> 'debugging' tends to be extremely slow - especially for trivial type
> bugs which would noramlly be spotted very quickly by someone wh
> understands what their code is doing and how it works.
Totally agree. The amount of time I save by "thinking" about my code
(before I write it, and after I write it) is enormous. More often than
not, my own testing doesn't find the problems that could occur, because
it's difficult to get those test conditions. 1 hour of not doing any
typing, just performing thought experiments and I've discovered very
subtle problems with home-brew IPC protocols (via sockets).
Even better, when I am in a rush to release software to somebody, it
works relatively well.
>
> I cold be just from an 'old school' that pretty much predated
> integrated IDEs with all the snazzy features that are common these
> days. Debuggers were around, but often getting them and your code
> configured to use them, loadinig them up and setting breakpoints etc,
> was more effort than it was worth except for really difficult problems
> which could not be solved by looking at the code and thinking about
> what was going on at the logical level.
>
I find that not many people have thought about "unit testing" their new
code. They'd prefer to write a new function that is reasonable (i.e. 3-5
printed pages) and just compile it in with the already 100k line program
and test if it works to find typos and stupid decisions that would have
been caught if they'd unit tested it with another framework. They keep
up the compile, fix cycle until it compiles the first time. No wonder it
never works (and takes a day).
For me, it's emacs and the command line. I know exactly what's going on.
And I read my code before I compile it to see that it makes some kind of
sense.
On the other hand, debugging tools are extremely useful when interfaces
that are external don't work (I've had this problem repeatedly with
cygwin assuming a behaviour the same as Linux).
Jason.
Tim X wrote:
> I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
> programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level IDE
> which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace through the
> code one line at a time and watch what happens to variables in a watch
> window.
No. I'm talking about developers who don't write unit tests as they write
code. These provide the option of using Undo, instead of debugging, when the
tests fail unexpectedly.
This leads to a development cycle with highly bug-resistant code, and
without proactive debugging to implement new functions.
Yes, you still need the debugger - typically for legacy situations - and you
still need elaborate debugging skills. New code stays ahead of them.
The idea that we can implement without debugging is incomprehensible to most
programmers. But that really is what I meant.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
"Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
> Tim X wrote:
>
> > I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
> > programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level IDE
> > which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace through the
> > code one line at a time and watch what happens to variables in a watch
> > window.
>
> No. I'm talking about developers who don't write unit tests as they write
> code. These provide the option of using Undo, instead of debugging, when the
> tests fail unexpectedly.
>
> This leads to a development cycle with highly bug-resistant code, and
> without proactive debugging to implement new functions.
>
> Yes, you still need the debugger - typically for legacy situations - and you
> still need elaborate debugging skills. New code stays ahead of them.
>
> The idea that we can implement without debugging is incomprehensible to most
> programmers. But that really is what I meant.
>
Its quite hard and maybe impossible to write unit tests for some (new)
things; OS bootloaders, device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc. In
some circumstances, a debugger can be used. Otherwise you have to do it
the old fashioned way; diagnostic counters, printks, bus analyzers,
sometimes even logic analyzers.
Unit tests are great, but they also have their limits.
Gregm
Greg Menke wrote:
> Its quite hard and maybe impossible to write unit tests for some (new)
> things; OS bootloaders, device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc. In
> some circumstances, a debugger can be used. Otherwise you have to do it
> the old fashioned way; diagnostic counters, printks, bus analyzers,
> sometimes even logic analyzers.
>
> Unit tests are great, but they also have their limits.
Don't use the debugger to delay the inevitable: Writing an emulator for your
CPU.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
"Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
> Greg Menke wrote:
>
> > Its quite hard and maybe impossible to write unit tests for some (new)
> > things; OS bootloaders, device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc. In
> > some circumstances, a debugger can be used. Otherwise you have to do it
> > the old fashioned way; diagnostic counters, printks, bus analyzers,
> > sometimes even logic analyzers.
> >
> > Unit tests are great, but they also have their limits.
>
> Don't use the debugger to delay the inevitable: Writing an emulator for your
> CPU.
Sure... that'll help debug drivers on bizzaro hardware with
incomplete/inaccurate datasheets & interrupt/context switch routines
suffering from various race conditions. Sometimes you just have to bite
the bullet and debug right on the metal because of heisenbugs if nothing
else.
Care to guarantee that the emulator duplicates the bugs & timing
characteristics of the real thing?
Gregm
Greg Menke wrote:
> Sure... that'll help debug drivers on bizzaro hardware with
> incomplete/inaccurate datasheets & interrupt/context switch routines
> suffering from various race conditions. Sometimes you just have to bite
> the bullet and debug right on the metal because of heisenbugs if nothing
> else.
>
> Care to guarantee that the emulator duplicates the bugs & timing
> characteristics of the real thing?
My admonition answers the common complaint, "I don't have time to write
tests; I'm too busy debugging".
You have time to write tests. Writing an emulator gives you a framework to
hang all your discoveries about the real things' bugs, and this in turn
frees up your schedule by automating as much low-value labor as possible.
And you find those bugs --> by debugging <--.
You describe a legacy situation - someone else invented this bizarro
hardware, and legacy situations require debugging to learn their
characteristics.
As you learn them, add tests about them to your emulator, to _approach_ a
state where a code failure causes a red flag in the tests _before_ it causes
an error situation near the hardware.
The point is not to never debug. The point is to always seek ways to replace
any necessary debugging with test cases, so the remaining debugging is
manual labor of the highest value.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
> Gregm
"Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
> Greg Menke wrote:
>
> > Sure... that'll help debug drivers on bizzaro hardware with
> > incomplete/inaccurate datasheets & interrupt/context switch routines
> > suffering from various race conditions. Sometimes you just have to bite
> > the bullet and debug right on the metal because of heisenbugs if nothing
> > else.
> >
> > Care to guarantee that the emulator duplicates the bugs & timing
> > characteristics of the real thing?
>
> My admonition answers the common complaint, "I don't have time to write
> tests; I'm too busy debugging".
Never heard that one myself. We routinely work out detailed end-to-end
test plans as well as unit tests, but as much as possible on the real
hardware. Automated where possible certainly. Often, detailed testing
on an emulator is a waste of time because the emulator isn't high
fidelity enough.
> You have time to write tests. Writing an emulator gives you a framework to
> hang all your discoveries about the real environmentthings' bugs, and this in turn
> frees up your schedule by automating as much low-value labor as possible.
Sure thing, thats why we have scripts and analysis programs to suck data
out of logic & bus analyzers to profile interrupt performance, packet
latencies, etc.. but an emulator only provides the roughest sort of
functional test.
> And you find those bugs --> by debugging <--.
>
> You describe a legacy situation - someone else invented this bizarro
> hardware, and legacy situations require debugging to learn their
> characteristics.
No I don't. I describe a realtime system- or even a simple device
driver. There are lots of those, new and old.
Say you wrote some subsystem on this embedded system, and you
implemented some kind of test framework to help you get it as
functionally debugged as possible. What you've tested is your inputs,
outputs and algorithms work in an fairly abstract and simplistic
situation. Thats helpful for first order easy debugging, but you're
going to be doing it the hard way along with everybody else once the
software is on the hardware and some of the unknown idiosyncracies of
the system start showing up. More of the unknown idiosyncracies will
appear over time. And at this stage, your emulator is pretty much
useless because nobody cares about what it says when the real thing is
sitting in the lab & thats were the bugs are.
> As you learn them, add tests about them to your emulator, to _approach_ a
> state where a code failure causes a red flag in the tests _before_ it causes
> an error situation near the hardware.
Sounds great. You going to step up and write the emulator for the
embedded system, from the fpga glue, busses and cpu- prove that it is of
reasonable fidelity- and keep it in sync with the vhdl as it evolves
too? Be advised that hardware specs will continue to change (you'll
have to emulate all its bugs, or at least its most important ones- maybe
they're documented), you'll have to also emulate as much as possible of
the expected and unexpected interface characteristics the system will
operate in. AND you have deadlines on your part of the delivered
software whatever your testing methodology is- nobody is going to wait
for you to write an emulator before you start delivering code according
to project schedule.
The last cpu emulator I worked with had writable registers that were
read-only on the variation of the cpu we're actually using... which is
not to say the emulator is useless, I use it for rough "does it crash on
boot" tests so I don't waste time on the real hardware. If you want to
call that a "test case", feel free- but its not really testing much.
> The point is not to never debug. The point is to always seek ways to replace
> any necessary debugging with test cases, so the remaining debugging is
> manual labor of the highest value.
I'm not talking about web-apps, I'm talking about realtime systems on
dedicated hardware- or maybe just a simple device driver- and useful
"test cases" on that sort of thing essentially involve the real hardware
in situations as close as possible to what the system will experience in
the field.
Gregm
Greg Menke wrote:
>> You describe a legacy situation - someone else invented this bizarro
>> hardware, and legacy situations require debugging to learn their
>> characteristics.
>
> No I don't. I describe a realtime system- or even a simple device
> driver. There are lots of those, new and old.
The define "legacy" as "requires debugging".
> Say you wrote some subsystem on this embedded system, and you
> implemented some kind of test framework to help you get it as
> functionally debugged as possible. What you've tested is your inputs,
> outputs and algorithms work in an fairly abstract and simplistic
> situation. Thats helpful for first order easy debugging, but you're
> going to be doing it the hard way along with everybody else once the
> software is on the hardware and some of the unknown idiosyncracies of
> the system start showing up. More of the unknown idiosyncracies will
> appear over time. And at this stage, your emulator is pretty much
> useless because nobody cares about what it says when the real thing is
> sitting in the lab & thats were the bugs are.
This sounds like the code went through an emulation phase and then a real
thing phase.
Ideally, I would configure one button on my editor to run all tests against
the emulator, then run all possible tests against the hardware. If the code
fails in the hardware I would trivially attempt to upgrade the emulator to
match the fault, so the code also fails with the emulator. But this is
speculation, and of course it won't prevent the need to debug against the
hardware.
Realistically, you are apparently relentlessly testing, and admittedly in a
"legacy" situation that prevents you from using tests to make the hardware
more bug resistant. Carry on!
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Phlip wrote:
>
> Greg Menke wrote:
>
> >> You describe a legacy situation - someone else invented this bizarro
> >> hardware, and legacy situations require debugging to learn their
> >> characteristics.
> >
> > No I don't. I describe a realtime system- or even a simple device
> > driver. There are lots of those, new and old.
>
> The define "legacy" as "requires debugging".
That's a bizarre (at best) definition of "legacy"...
....
> Realistically, you are apparently relentlessly testing, and admittedly in a
> "legacy" situation that prevents you from using tests to make the hardware
> more bug resistant. Carry on!
Scratch the "legacy" and you have a reasonable description of much of
embedded system development.
The "trivial" upgrading of the emulator is <definitely> an ideal state
in most instances, too...
Duane Bozarth wrote:
>> The define "legacy" as "requires debugging".
>
> That's a bizarre (at best) definition of "legacy"...
That's why Greg didn't understand why I used it like that.
Me: Strive to never debug.
Greg: What about blah blah blah.
Me: You are using something that you can't design
fresh from scratch to resist bugs. So you must
run the debugger more often than greenfield code
Greg: It's not "legacy" it's embedded blah blah blah
My point is you must frequently debug it, just as you must frequently debug
user-level code that someone wrote without good unit tests. "Legacy" code.
> The "trivial" upgrading of the emulator is <definitely> an ideal state
> in most instances, too...
If you can't, then skip it. (That's also a rule when attempting to TDD
legacy code.)
Just don't leave the emulator out of the loop. Greg implied using it would
slow down the tail end of development.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Phlip wrote:
>
> Duane Bozarth wrote:
>
> >> The define "legacy" as "requires debugging".
> >
> > That's a bizarre (at best) definition of "legacy"...
>
> That's why Greg didn't understand why I used it like that.
I didn't either (and still don't) because it has nothing whatsoever to
to w/ "legacy" or not...
> Me: Strive to never debug.
>
> Greg: What about blah blah blah.
>
> Me: You are using something that you can't design
> fresh from scratch to resist bugs. So you must
> run the debugger more often than greenfield code
>
> Greg: It's not "legacy" it's embedded blah blah blah
In that sense everything is "legacy" -- I can't redesign a commercial
compiler, either.
...
> Just don't leave the emulator out of the loop. Greg implied using it would
> slow down the tail end of development.
At some point in most embedded systems, that <is> true...you get to a
point at which the depth of emulation required isn't worth the effort
that would be required. Once at that point, reverting is rarely
productive use of resources.
"Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
> Greg Menke wrote:
>
> >> You describe a legacy situation - someone else invented this bizarro
> >> hardware, and legacy situations require debugging to learn their
> >> characteristics.
> >
> > No I don't. I describe a realtime system- or even a simple device
> > driver. There are lots of those, new and old.
>
> The define "legacy" as "requires debugging".
Bizarre.
> > Say you wrote some subsystem on this embedded system, and you
> > implemented some kind of test framework to help you get it as
> > functionally debugged as possible. What you've tested is your inputs,
> > outputs and algorithms work in an fairly abstract and simplistic
> > situation. Thats helpful for first order easy debugging, but you're
> > going to be doing it the hard way along with everybody else once the
> > software is on the hardware and some of the unknown idiosyncracies of
> > the system start showing up. More of the unknown idiosyncracies will
> > appear over time. And at this stage, your emulator is pretty much
> > useless because nobody cares about what it says when the real thing is
> > sitting in the lab & thats were the bugs are.
>
> This sounds like the code went through an emulation phase and then a real
> thing phase.
Nope- went through breadboard designs of the hardware using inputs &
outputs first from emulation hardware and eventually from the real
hardware. The breadboard designs are used to work up hardware and
software designs and implementations, feeding back changes & bugfixes,
etc into the evolving specs. Ideally, the working software meets the
working hardware later on in the project. Low fidelity emulation is
pretty handy for easier classes of bugs early on; mismatched or unpacked
structs, endian stuff, etc.. But race conditions and pathological i/o
states (the harder problems) often depend on the real hardware in the
real operating environment (maybe interrupt timing changes because
capacitors & clocks drift when the system goes below freezing, for
example).
> Ideally, I would configure one button on my editor to run all tests against
> the emulator, then run all possible tests against the hardware. If the code
> fails in the hardware I would trivially attempt to upgrade the emulator to
> match the fault, so the code also fails with the emulator. But this is
> speculation, and of course it won't prevent the need to debug against the
> hardware.
Neat. Who's going to pay for the emulator (build it & prove that it
matches the hardware- and keep it matching) when we also have to do the
real system?
Now one place that emulators are really handy are for working up smaller
subsystem elements; ie logic in a single fpga or related fpga's- then
excercising the i/o is a bit easier.
>
> Realistically, you are apparently relentlessly testing, and admittedly in a
> "legacy" situation that prevents you from using tests to make the hardware
> more bug resistant. Carry on!
>
We don't get many opportunites to make hardware more bug resistant. If
software discovers a discrepancy in the documented interface we can
sometimes get fixes back into hardware, but it has to be well proven.
Early in the hardware lifecycle its easier to get changes to the
interface specs, but later on the software people pretty much have to
lump it.
Gregm
Greg Menke wrote:
>> Then define "legacy" as "requires debugging".
>
> Bizarre.
Then define "foo" as "frequent punitive open-ended debugging causing
occassional schedule risk". Some teams use "legacy" as a casual shorthand
way to say "foo". Please substitute my definition for "foo" wherever I wrote
"legacy", so we can address the actual points raised.
> Nope- went through breadboard designs of the hardware using inputs &
> outputs first from emulation hardware and eventually from the real
> hardware. The breadboard designs are used to work up hardware and
> software designs and implementations, feeding back changes & bugfixes,
> etc into the evolving specs. Ideally, the working software meets the
> working hardware later on in the project.
Sorry to interrupt; why is that "ideal"? Does the software match up even
later sometimes?
> Low fidelity emulation is
> pretty handy for easier classes of bugs early on; mismatched or unpacked
> structs, endian stuff, etc.. But race conditions and pathological i/o
> states (the harder problems) often depend on the real hardware in the
> real operating environment (maybe interrupt timing changes because
> capacitors & clocks drift when the system goes below freezing, for
> example).
As you stated before, in that space you often must research the nature of
faults, and that research will occupy significant development time.
>> Ideally, I would configure one button on my editor to run all tests
>> against
>> the emulator, then run all possible tests against the hardware. If the
>> code
>> fails in the hardware I would trivially attempt to upgrade the emulator
>> to
>> match the fault, so the code also fails with the emulator. But this is
>> speculation, and of course it won't prevent the need to debug against the
>> hardware.
>
> Neat. Who's going to pay for the emulator (build it & prove that it
> matches the hardware- and keep it matching) when we also have to do the
> real system?
In my experience, many teams are too busy doing "foo" because they did not
carefully plan a development environment that reduces the odds of "foo". I
suspect your team does have a good development environment, so we may be
talking past each other now.
But that's no reason to stop!
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
"Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
> Greg Menke wrote:
>
>
> > Nope- went through breadboard designs of the hardware using inputs &
> > outputs first from emulation hardware and eventually from the real
> > hardware. The breadboard designs are used to work up hardware and
> > software designs and implementations, feeding back changes & bugfixes,
> > etc into the evolving specs. Ideally, the working software meets the
> > working hardware later on in the project.
>
> Sorry to interrupt; why is that "ideal"? Does the software match up even
> later sometimes?
I'm not proposing that it is. But theres not much alternative to
something like that when both the hardware and software are being
developed.
> > Low fidelity emulation is
> > pretty handy for easier classes of bugs early on; mismatched or unpacked
> > structs, endian stuff, etc.. But race conditions and pathological i/o
> > states (the harder problems) often depend on the real hardware in the
> > real operating environment (maybe interrupt timing changes because
> > capacitors & clocks drift when the system goes below freezing, for
> > example).
>
> As you stated before, in that space you often must research the nature of
> faults, and that research will occupy significant development time.
And for these hard problem, you have to test with the real thing because
any emulator is going to miss some (many) of these subtle issues. For
the many easy bugs, an emulator (or maybe simulator) makes a good deal
of sense, but its no panacea.
> >> Ideally, I would configure one button on my editor to run all tests
> >> against
> >> the emulator, then run all possible tests against the hardware. If the
> >> code
> >> fails in the hardware I would trivially attempt to upgrade the emulator
> >> to
> >> match the fault, so the code also fails with the emulator. But this is
> >> speculation, and of course it won't prevent the need to debug against the
> >> hardware.
> >
> > Neat. Who's going to pay for the emulator (build it & prove that it
> > matches the hardware- and keep it matching) when we also have to do the
> > real system?
>
> In my experience, many teams are too busy doing "foo" because they did not
> carefully plan a development environment that reduces the odds of "foo". I
> suspect your team does have a good development environment, so we may be
> talking past each other now.
How do you reduce the chances of bugs by writing an emulator thats as
least as complicated as the real system, and that is essentially
guaranteed to have different & unknown bugs which will limit its
fidelity at some ill-defined point? Do you really think that teams
working on systems like this don't spend a lot of time trying to
minimize the opportunities of bugs showing up? There is lots of
code-reuse, walkthroughs, reviews, etc... on both the hardware and
software- emulators and simulators where feasible; for example, opnet
may be used to evaluate task and network schedulability in all sorts of
circumstances before the software is even started.
As we speak, I'm helping deal with a crash-on-reset problem on the
production hardware that doesn't happen on the development hardware,
plus weird edac behavior to go along with it. Analyzing this problem
requires a top to bottom analysis of the system will all sorts of
inter-team documentation of whats going on. How is an emulator going to
help here? At best it will exhibit the same problems (but we still
don't know what the problems are), at worst it will not duplicate the
behavior. It hasn't gotten us any closer in the former case, in the
latter its worse because project management is now nervous because its
presenting another difference from the real system yet they're (supposed
to be) relying on it to help them test.
Now if you're talking about a high-level app that can afford to ignore
hardware issues, then a low-fidelity emulator doesn't have to address
the hard problems and so offers greater coverage.
Gregm
Greg Menke wrote:
> As we speak, I'm helping deal with a crash-on-reset problem on the
> production hardware that doesn't happen on the development hardware,
> plus weird edac behavior to go along with it. Analyzing this problem
> requires a top to bottom analysis of the system will all sorts of
> inter-team documentation of whats going on. How is an emulator going to
> help here?
The outer topic is your development environment. Yours is resisting this bug
as we "speak".
(You also had few opportunities to _prevent_ the bug.)
The inner topic is an emulator.
> At best it will exhibit the same problems (but we still
> don't know what the problems are), at worst it will not duplicate the
> behavior.
Here's a completely unrelated topic. When you use "make menuconfig" to build
Linux, you get a zillion options for all kinds of hardware peripherals. You
can freely mix and match all the options, and build a stable Linux.
How could Linux possibly be stable if you activate some combination of
options that nobody ever activated before? The odds increase as you plug in
weird hardware combinations.
The answer is those combinations are not a zillion opportunities for bugs,
they are a zillion forces against bugs. Each cross-constraint, passing its
tests, reduces the odds of bugs in parallel situations. Constraint spaces
with a high number of dimensions are naturally sparse, so a viable Linux
kernel can only exist in very few states.
I would prefer code that passed both emulation tests and tests in real
hardware. Cross-testing is good, even when the emulator doesn't exactly
match the hardware. Sometimes it's good _because_ they don't match. Run such
tests more often.
There are indeed many reasons why an emulator might not be ideal for every
kind of embedded situation.
In _theory_, for each bug you debug in the hardware, you should force the
emulator to exhibit the same bug before killing it.
The decision to do that should be per-bug, not per-emulator.
> It hasn't gotten us any closer in the former case, in the
> latter its worse because project management is now nervous because its
> presenting another difference from the real system yet they're (supposed
> to be) relying on it to help them test.
Ah, so you are exposing your managers to implementation details.
Pay no attention to the little emulator behind the curtain!
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Greg Menke wrote:
> "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
>>Greg Menke wrote:
>>>Ideally, the working software meets the
>>>working hardware later on in the project.
>>Sorry to interrupt; why is that "ideal"? Does the software match up even
>>later sometimes?
> I'm not proposing that it is. But theres not much alternative to
> something like that when both the hardware and software are being
> developed.
Forgive me for asking, but if you are part of a team that is
developing both specialized hardware *and* software to run on
it, don't you have an accurate emulator in the first place in
your HDL file for the new hardware? I mean, if you're
designing the hardware, you've got the design in a Hardware
Description Language (such as VeriLog) and your HDL
development environment will support some excruciatingly
exact simulations that you can test software against.
At least, I've never seen a Verilog environment that didn't
have a simulation mode you could test software against.
Bear
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: DevDrive/IntHand vs. applications (was: Not debugging?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep02-016@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Greg Menke <············@toadmail.com>
> Its quite hard and maybe impossible to write unit tests for some
> (new) things; OS bootloaders, device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc.
In some such cases I'd recommend putting the absolute minimum amount of
code into the device driver or interrupt handler itself, putting all
the complicated stuff in an application that invokes the low-level
driver directly. Things may run slowly that way, but it's relatively
easy to debug. Later when you get confidence that your application code
(emulating higher functions of device driver) is solid, you can try
miagrating it into the driver.
> Unit tests are great, but they also have their limits.
I agree. I do application programming, where line-by-line and
each-function unit testing works great 99% of the time. That's the kind
of programming where I strongly recommend that method of program
development. In the case of tools used locally, exactly that method
(which I've described in more detail elsewhere, and which I teach to
absolute beginners) works all the way up to the very top level. In the
case of tools used via CGI applications, nearly all the tools can be
developed in a read-eval-print (Lisp or java/BeanShell), all but the
very toplevel application. That latter requires a slightly different
interaction:
- REP: Get test input, code&execute first line of code, use that
already existing data to execute second line of code, etc.
- CGI-toplevel: Write test rig to get test input, and print it, and
load WebPage to execute it. Add first line of code, and print
statement, re-load WebPage, which re-executes the get-test-input and
runs the first line of code for first time. Add second line of code,
and print statement, re-load WebPage, which re-executes get-test-input
and first-line and runs second line of code for the first time. Etc.
keep adding more lines of code and re-loading to re-do everything old
and first-time-do everything new. Since the test input usually comes
from a HTML FORM, it's trivial to test other input merely by changing
the contents of the form and re-submitting it. One nice thing about the
Web is that it's easy to jump to the end of the output, so you don't
have to worry about too much print statement output before the final
result, and if there's a problem you can then scroll back easily to see
the earlier print outputs.
(Remarks about CGI apply equally to JSP, PHP, etc., but not to Java
HttpServlets where you have to compile and install each new version
before you can run it, but even then the modular nature of Java and
automatic compile-only-what-changed and dynamic runtime loader makes it
not too horribly painful if you can compile directly to the runtime
directory and thereby avoid needing to run deploytool each time.)
Phlip wrote:
> Tim X wrote:
>
>>I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
>>programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level IDE
>>which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace through the
>>code one line at a time and watch what happens to variables in a watch
>>window.
>
> No. I'm talking about developers who don't write unit tests as they write
> code. These provide the option of using Undo, instead of debugging, when the
> tests fail unexpectedly.
>
> This leads to a development cycle with highly bug-resistant code, and
> without proactive debugging to implement new functions.
>
> Yes, you still need the debugger - typically for legacy situations - and you
> still need elaborate debugging skills. New code stays ahead of them.
>
> The idea that we can implement without debugging is incomprehensible to most
> programmers. But that really is what I meant.
You can only write tests before the code if you are very familiar with what
you want and have thought about it for hours/days/weeks. In the process of
making the solution of a very tedious problem clear to me, i can do a *lot* of
throwing away of code and refactoring for weeks at a time. The amount of extra
churn from rewriting unit tests would be hopeless. Refactoring of code *is* my
thought process. Write code that works, then write unit tests to make sure it
keeps working. Gdb/ddd is indispensible.
Russell Shaw wrote:
>> No. I'm talking about developers who don't write unit tests as they write
>> code. These provide the option of using Undo, instead of debugging, when
>> the tests fail unexpectedly.
> You can only write tests before the code if you are very familiar with
> what
> you want and have thought about it for hours/days/weeks.
We ain't talking about white-box acceptance tests.
If you can think of the next _line_ of code to write, you must perforce be
able to think of a complementing test case that would fail if the line were
not there. Just make writing the test case part of writing that line.
> In the process of
> making the solution of a very tedious problem clear to me, i can do a
> *lot* of
> throwing away of code and refactoring for weeks at a time.
That's not "refactoring" it's "rework". But it's okay - more below.
> The amount of extra
> churn from rewriting unit tests would be hopeless.
There are two forks to the answer to this.
One fork: Those tests support you because they should _decouple_ from the
tested code. After you have that line, you can move it around (_that's_
refactoring), screw with it, rewrite it, etc. The tests _support_ this
noodling around, when you run them over and over again. If a test fails
unexpectedly, you use Undo until it passes, then try another change.
> Refactoring of code *is* my
> thought process. Write code that works, then write unit tests to make sure
> it
> keeps working. Gdb/ddd is indispensible.
Here's the other fork of the answer:
Software Engineering is 99% inspiration and 1% perspiration. Harnessing any
kind of creativity is priceless. Until you learn TDD enough to use it
creatively, you might like to work out designs and algorithms using
code-and-fix (or UML diagrams, or Tarot cards, or LSD, or NBC, or whatever).
When you like a solution, now convert it into robust coding by using TDD to
recreate it. If you already know the code's behaviors and design, you must
perforce be able to think of a series of test cases that will force the code
to reappear in your production codebase.
While I find TDD for creativity very useful, TDD to reconstitute an existing
module is as easy as falling off a log.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:24:01 GMT, "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>If you can think of the next _line_ of code to write, you must perforce be
>able to think of a complementing test case that would fail if the line were
>not there. Just make writing the test case part of writing that line.
>
In principle you're right ... but it's rarely that simple.
I support testing and assertions wherever possible, including
intra-procedure if there is some meaningful test that can be done on a
partial result - but testing line by line is ridiculous. It may be
extremely difficult or quite impossible to figure out what would
happen if a particular line of code is wrong or missing. It's also
unwieldy because such tests frequently can't be batched but must be
executed in-line due to following code altering the test conditions.
I didn't agree with this "line by line proof" approach in 1981 when
Gries proposed it in "The Science of Programming" and I don't agree
with it now. YMMV.
I use to do image processing in which the processing was a dependent
chain of fuzzy logic. All the possible answers were wrong in some
absolute sense - and the object was to find the answer that was least
wrong. If I missed a minor step or had a bug in a calculation
somewhere, the chances are I wouldn't be able to tell by looking at
the intermediate results.
George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address
George Neuner wrote:
> In principle you're right ... but it's rarely that simple.
Yes it is. You are considering the harder task of retrofitting
acceptance-level tests to the outside of finished APIs. Not the simpler and
more direct task of writing tests that fail so you can write a line or two
of behavior to pass them.
> I support testing and assertions wherever possible, including
> intra-procedure if there is some meaningful test that can be done on a
> partial result - but testing line by line is ridiculous. It may be
> extremely difficult or quite impossible to figure out what would
> happen if a particular line of code is wrong or missing.
That's why you run the test and ensure it fails for the correct reason,
before writing the code to pass the test. The test doesn't have to be
exact - it doesn't need to constrain your code to only one possible new line
[or two]. You write more tests until all of them constrain.
> It's also
> unwieldy because such tests frequently can't be batched but must be
> executed in-line due to following code altering the test conditions.
Design-for-testing implies you have just a little more API, and you use it
to detect these intermediate states. The requirement to write tests first
makes such API adjustments easier.
> I didn't agree with this "line by line proof" approach in 1981 when
> Gries proposed it in "The Science of Programming" and I don't agree
> with it now. YMMV.
That was probably something different, and TDD is not a "proof" system.
> I use to do image processing in which the processing was a dependent
> chain of fuzzy logic. All the possible answers were wrong in some
> absolute sense - and the object was to find the answer that was least
> wrong. If I missed a minor step or had a bug in a calculation
> somewhere, the chances are I wouldn't be able to tell by looking at
> the intermediate results.
Right. Such tests can be very fragile and hyperactive. Hence, run them
_more_ often, and if they fail unexpectedly use Undo to back out your
change, then think of a smaller change that doesn't change an irrelevant
side-effect. Tests that constrain too much are better than ones you run
infrequently.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
In article <··································@4ax.com>,
George Neuner <·········@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:24:01 GMT, "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>If you can think of the next _line_ of code to write, you must perforce be
>>able to think of a complementing test case that would fail if the line were
>>not there. Just make writing the test case part of writing that line.
>>
>
>In principle you're right ... but it's rarely that simple.
>
>I support testing and assertions wherever possible, including
>intra-procedure if there is some meaningful test that can be done on a
>partial result - but testing line by line is ridiculous. It may be
>extremely difficult or quite impossible to figure out what would
>happen if a particular line of code is wrong or missing. It's also
>unwieldy because such tests frequently can't be batched but must be
>executed in-line due to following code altering the test conditions.
You left out the important sentence in Phlip's original where he said "It's
not white box testing." From this I deduce he's talking about providing
inputs to the unit (method), not adding lines of code to what's being tested.
There remains the problem of "figuring out what would happen if a particular
line of code is wrong or missing". Once again I plead ignorance of TDD
(thankfully Phlip is kind to me when I make mistakes!), but it seems to me
that Phlip is talking about the simplest form of "test coverage" which gives
us two tests for "if A and B then S" -- one for if true, one for if false.
There are more complex forms of coverage such as checking all possible
combinations of truth values, and others which look at number of repetitions
of loops (somewhere I have an old reference to an article defining a hierarchy
of test coverage approaches, which I will try to find if anyone needs it). It
seems to me that the line-by-line approach would have to suffer from the same
limitations as test coverage: number of test cases grows exponentially as the
program gets longer and more complex. I suppose "small methods" helps limit
that problem, but isn't it still present?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Line-by-line testing, not Gries! (was: Not debugging?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep02-015@Yahoo.Com>
> From: George Neuner <·········@comcast.net>
> I support testing and assertions wherever possible, including
> intra-procedure if there is some meaningful test that can be done on a
> partial result - but testing line by line is ridiculous.
I disagree 99%. What I do most of the time is write one line of code,
then execute it to see if it did what I wanted it to. If it did, I
write the next line of code, which depends on the (already seen to be
correct) result from the first line of code, then I execute it to see
if it also did what I wanted it to. Repeat as many lines of code as
needed to finish the function these line will go into. By the time I am
ready to wrap a function declaration form around them, every line of
code works for that first test case, so I know for sure they are
connected properly, and testing additional boundary cases would then
make sure any decisions within my code, or any boundary cases of the
individual statements, are correct.
So what you do is write one line of code, then without checking whether
it works at all you go ahead to write another line that depends on it,
then another, then another, then another, etc., until you have enough a
complete function definition, at which point you wrap a function
definition form around the code and perform the very first test of all
that code as a whole unit, and if you have a bug you have to guess
which of those several lines of code, or which dependency between two
adjacent lines of code, might be the problem?? That sounds stupid
compared to how I do it.
I say 99% disagree, because once in a while I need to write a function
where every line of code is so trivial that I can write the whole bunch
of code faster than I can test each part individually. This hardly ever
happens with inline code. Usually it happens only with mapping
functions, whereby I treat the whole mapping operation as if it were a
single line of code. If the entire function has just that one "line" of
code, I might write the function wrapper immediately after the inner
code, and test the whole one-line-of-code function as a unit. But more
often the one "line" of code including the mapping call is not the
whole function, so I indeed test that "line" of code individually, and
other lines of code before/after it likewise, and only write the
function definition wrapper after all the lines of code are tested.
Here's an example of a mapping operation which is sufficiently complex
that I probably tested the innerds individually before putting the
pieces together into the mapc form:
(mapc
(function (lambda (ip)
(let ((ix (position ip iptable :test (function ipinrange))))
(cond (ix (cond (verbose (format t " ~D " ix))) (push ip revmatch))
(t (cond (verbose (format t " x "))) (push ip revmiss))
))
))
ip3nums)
This was written several years ago so I can't remember exactly how I
did it at the time, I'm just expressing what I probably would have done.
By comparison, here's an example where I probably wrote and tested the
entire function at one time (after the key function it calls had
already been fully unit-tested):
(defun one-nicid-find-eadrs (nicid res2)
(mapcan (function (lambda (rec2)
(one-nicid-one-rec2-maybe-eadr nicid rec2)))
res2))
> It may be extremely difficult or quite impossible to figure out what
> would happen if a particular line of code is wrong or missing.
That's a "red herring". If there is a setup followed by three lines of code:
;TestRig: (setq x0 '(sometestdata))
(setq x1 (dosomething x0)) ;first loc
(setq x2 (dosomethingelse x1)) ;middle "
(setq x3 (dosomethingdifferent x2)) ;last "
then it's obvious what happens if the middle line of code is missing:
The last line of code will encounter an unbound variable and signal
that error. How is that difficult or impossible to figure out?? If the
middle line of code is wrong because it can't accept the kind of data
in x1, then it'll signal an error when it's tested. If the middle line
of code is wrong because it produces wrong output, and you don't notice
it's wrong when testing it, surely when you run the last line of code
it'll signal an error or produce obviously wrong output. If no errors
are signalled, then you pay special attention to the final output from
the very last line of code intended to be in your function, and you'll
notice any bugs up to that point, and then looking back at the
intermediate results you can figure out where you went wrong. There's
no need to figure out, in advance, what would happen if a particular
line of code is wrong. You just try it and it's blatantly obvious
either immediately or very shortly that it was wrong.
> It's also unwieldy because such tests frequently can't be batched but
> must be executed in-line due to following code altering the test
> conditions.
Line-by-line unit testing is done only during initial coding of each
new function, or when making a drastic refactoring that requires you to
check the function all over again from scratch. There's nothing
unwieldy about executing each line of code individually, assuming
you're using any decent live-interactive programming environment such
as Lisp read-eval-print or Java BeanShell.
On the other hand, assertions can be left in the code permanently, and
they aren't unwieldy in any case, regardless of programming
environment.
> I didn't agree with this "line by line proof" approach in 1981 when
> Gries proposed it in "The Science of Programming" and I don't agree
> with it now. YMMV.
I haven't seen the writing by Gries. Is a summary online?
Google search gets:
http://www.springeronline.com/sgw/cda/frontpage/0,10735,4-40109-22-1332860-0,00.html
This is the very first book to discuss the theory and principles of
computer programming on the basis of the idea that a proof of
correctness and a program should be developed hand in hand. ...
Propositions
and predicate calculus are presented as a took [sic] for the programmer,
rather than simply an object of study.
This is something very different from line by line testing. Constructing
a formal proof of correctness it nothing at all like simply testing a
piece of code under a variety of typical situations, both valid and
invalid, to get a pretty good idea that indeed it's all working
correctly, producing good results with good data, and signalling a
clearly worded explanatory error if given bad data.
> I use [sic] to do image processing in which the processing was a dependent
> chain of fuzzy logic. All the possible answers were wrong in some
> absolute sense - and the object was to find the answer that was least
> wrong. If I missed a minor step or had a bug in a calculation
> somewhere, the chances are I wouldn't be able to tell by looking at
> the intermediate results.
It might be interesting to revisit that code, refactoring it to clearly
use a bottom-up tool-building design, whereby you can map the tiny
tools across contrived synthesized images, starting with clean
geometric images, then noisy geometric images, then clean fractally
generated landscapes, and finally noisy fractally generated landscapes,
to test whether they produce the expected outputs as inherent in the
synthesizer input. Also, natural images can be fed through the image
processing to create an abstract model, then that abstract model can be
fed back into the synthesizer to see if that synthetic image when
re-processed produces the same model gotten the first time around.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Not debugging?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep02-014@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Russell Shaw <·········@s_pam.netspace.net.au>
> You can only write tests before the code if you are very familiar
> with what you want and have thought about it for hours/days/weeks.
I disagree with most of that.
When unit-testing single lines of code, the test consists of two parts,
the data going in, and the data going out. The data going in is already
there before I write that one line of code to deal with it. The data
going out is immediately checked by eye upon executing that one line of
code. No hours/days/weeks of prior thought are necessary to perform
that single-line unit test.
When unit-testing single functions, the input part is already there
before even the first line of code is written, which is long before the
function is put together. The output part is already there immediately
after the last line of code is tested, which is immediately before
putting the function together. That's for the first unit-test for that
function. Other unit tests are then constructed immediately after
running the first unit test. The whole bunch of them are finished a few
minutes after the function is put together. No hours/days/weeks of
prior thought are necessary to set up and perform those single-function
unit tests.
> In the process of making the solution of a very tedious problem clear
> to me, i can do a *lot* of throwing away of code and refactoring for
> weeks at a time. The amount of extra churn from rewriting unit tests
> would be hopeless.
I don't see it that way. I test just about every single line of code,
and every function, regardless of whether it's a brand-new function or
a refactoring of something. Unit testing is no burden, it's how I make
sure my code works before I move to writing the next part of my code.
> Write code that works, then write unit tests to make sure it
> keeps working.
So you don't test your code until after you're sure it's working?
How can you be sure it works when you havne't yet tested it??
Phlip wrote:
> Tim X wrote:
>
>
>>I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
>>programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level IDE
>>which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace through the
>>code one line at a time and watch what happens to variables in a watch
>>window.
>
>
> No. I'm talking about developers who don't write unit tests as they write
> code. These provide the option of using Undo, instead of debugging, when the
> tests fail unexpectedly.
>
> This leads to a development cycle with highly bug-resistant code, and
> without proactive debugging to implement new functions.
>
> Yes, you still need the debugger - typically for legacy situations - and you
> still need elaborate debugging skills. New code stays ahead of them.
>
> The idea that we can implement without debugging is incomprehensible to most
> programmers. But that really is what I meant.
I've been waiting for someone to make this claim about unit testing.
Guess I'll pick on you :)
I don't believe that unit testing eliminates debugging. I'll give a
real life example.
We had a bug where an update to our library disabled some features of a
client program. After some investigating, it was determined that the
client program was doing this:
if (library_version == 3)
instead of this:
if (library_version >= 3)
Our fix for this bug was to detect the client and report 3 for the
version if the client was the offending program, and otherwise report
the true version.
This is the sort of bug that gets caught in integration testing. I
can't think of any way that unit testing would have helped this
situation. I'd be very interested in hearing how this sort of bug would
be approached in the test-first "no debugging" philosophy.
-Peter
--
Pull out a splinter to reply.
Peter Ammon wrote:
> I've been waiting for someone to make this claim about unit testing. Guess
> I'll pick on you :)
Oh goody 'cause I didn't claim it. [I think.]
> I don't believe that unit testing eliminates debugging. I'll give a real
> life example.
Some TDD authors prevaricate and say "/virtually/ bug free". My emphasis. I
prefer to prevaricate more accurately and usefully.
TDD produces bug-resistant code, with reduced the odds of long bug hunts.
The kind that typically require debugging and/or trace statements.
> We had a bug where an update to our library disabled some features of a
> client program. After some investigating, it was determined that the
> client program was doing this:
>
> if (library_version == 3)
>
> instead of this:
>
> if (library_version >= 3)
>
> Our fix for this bug was to detect the client and report 3 for the version
> if the client was the offending program, and otherwise report the true
> version.
TDD works in tiny steps. Upgrading a library is a big step (and another
"legacy" situation). Fortunately, your tests let you roll back to the
previous library version for frequent sanity checks (and emergency
releases), until you debug the situation.
> be approached in the test-first "no debugging" philosophy.
There is no test-first "no debugging" philosophy. Test cases make an
exquisite platform for debugging. For example, in VB[A] I use Debug.Assert
in a test case, and failure raises the debugger. Then I move the current
execution point back to the called method, step inside it, fix the code to
pass the test, and resume running the remaining tests.
Without TDD, this is the Unholiest of Unholies - programming in the debugger
to generate spaghetti code. With TDD, it's nothing more than leveraging your
tools effectively.
When people use TDD, they generally report surprise that the incidences of
_punitive_ debugging, with absolutely no other recourse, go way down. And
some teams (in greenfield projects with user-level code) indeed never turn
on their debugger, and code for years without it.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Unit vs. integration testing (was: Not debugging?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Peter Ammon <········@splintermac.com>
> I don't believe that unit testing eliminates debugging.
But would accept that comprehensive unit testing, to make sure every
tool does its job correctly before it's called from a higher-up tool,
reduces the needed amount of whole-system debugging by one or two
orders of magnitude?
> We had a bug where an update to our library disabled some features of a
> client program. After some investigating, it was determined that the
> client program was doing this:
> if (library_version == 3)
> instead of this:
> if (library_version >= 3)
It's obvious to me that the client program was never unit tested
properly. Since there was a line of code that checkd the library
version, there should have been a unit test whereby different library
versions were supplied by a test rig and the client program was checked
to make sure it performed correctly in all such cases. Testing boundary
cases would have sufficed for this line of code.
> Our fix for this bug was to detect the client and report 3 for the
> version if the client was the offending program, and otherwise report
> the true version.
Given that the client program had a bug, it made more sense to fix that
bug rather than accomodate it by introducing a matching bug in another
module. What happens, per your "our fix", if somebody later adds new
code to the client to deal specially with library version 4, and that
code doesn't work, because the library is reporting 3 instead of 4?
Imagine how long it'll take to track down that bug, then it can't be
fixed without re-breaking the version 3 bug? The best immediate fix is
to document client as having a bug that makes it not work with any
version beyond 3, and roll back the library to version 3 on any system
used by that client until such time as somebody can fix the client,
meanwhile on any system with properly working clients they get a full
working version 4 of the library.
> This is the sort of bug that gets caught in integration testing.
Only because complete unit testing of the client never occurred. With a
TDD-style of testing, although not necessary actual TDD (development),
each such line of code that tests a condition would be deliberately
disabled in various ways, and tests would be set up to signal
malfunctions whenever any line of code other than the correct one is in
that position. Perhaps having a contest between two teams would make
this practical: One team designs tests to signal malfunction whenever
the line of code is wrong. Other team contrives bogus lines of code to
try to fool the test. Rule is you can't make a super-complicated
perverse line of code such as:
if ((library_version == 3) || (library_version == 4) || (library_version > 7))
which would pass all boundary tests for versions 1,2,3,4, and also pass
far-beyond test such as 100, but fail at untested 5 or 6. The bogus
lines of code have to be approximately the same complexity as the
correct line of code. So the predicate could be == != > >= < <= or any
other test of a similar nature that might be in the programming
language, as well as stupid mistakes such as = or +=, and the constant
value can be any integer, and the variable name might be wrong. At some
point two different lines of code would be recognized as correct (with
< or <= for different adjacent constants), and a policy decision would
have to be made to reject one of the two in favor of the other, then
the game could continue with that restriction on the
bogus-loc-generator team until the tests are sufficient to make the
bogus-loc-generator team resign the game. However very early in the
game/contest the bogus line of code actually in the program would have
been signalled as malfunctionning by the test for version 4. (I admit
the test rig for this game, whereby various features are attempted and
a malfunction is signalled if some supposedly available feature turns
out not to be available, is a bit complex. But maybe the first team
would enjoy such a challenge?)
> I can't think of any way that unit testing would have helped this
> situation. I'd be very interested in hearing how this sort of bug
> would be approached in the test-first "no debugging" philosophy.
Have my ideas about need to fully unit-test the client, and the
contest, helped you think of a way that unit testing the client could
have helped? I'm not saying that unit testing is guaranteed to help in
this case, because unit testing isn't perfect, and could possibly
overlook this particular case. I'm just saying that unit testing would
have a good chance of having found this bug already, and the better
quality the unit testing is the lower the chance of the bug slipping
through undetected. Like I said at the top: I don't claim unit testing
eliminates *all* bugs, merely that it eliminates 90-99% of potential
bugs already, depending on the quality/exhaustiveness of unit testing,
leaving just those very few remaining bugs to occur later.
From: Duane Bozarth
Subject: Re: Unit vs. integration testing (was: Not debugging?)
Date:
Message-ID: <431A10B1.448903F8@swko.dot.net>
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" wrote:
>
...
> > We had a bug where an update to our library disabled some features of a
> > client program. After some investigating, it was determined that the
> > client program was doing this:
> > if (library_version == 3)
> > instead of this:
> > if (library_version >= 3)
>
> It's obvious to me that the client program was never unit tested
> properly. Since there was a line of code that checkd the library
> version, there should have been a unit test whereby different library
> versions were supplied by a test rig and the client program was checked
> to make sure it performed correctly in all such cases. Testing boundary
> cases would have sufficed for this line of code.
Except for the fact that at the point in time there was probably not
another libarary of the type to do the test...that is an oversight in
the design/specification stage, and more than likely would not have
reported an error on a test suite.
Unit testing won't uncover logic flaws in the design or even in the
testing scope/design.
> > Our fix for this bug was to detect the client and report 3 for the
> > version if the client was the offending program, and otherwise report
> > the true version.
>
> Given that the client program had a bug, it made more sense to fix that
> bug rather than accomodate it ...
In all likelihood, the client was not <their> product...
> > This is the sort of bug that gets caught in integration testing.
>
> Only because complete unit testing of the client never occurred. ...
No, because the client wasn't part of the unit under test...
Tim X wrote:
> ...
> I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
> programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level IDE
> which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace through the
> code one line at a time and watch what happens to variables in a watch
> window.
>
> IMO this is a really bad trend because it means programmers stop
> thinking about their code and how it actually works. this sort of
> 'debugging' tends to be extremely slow - especially for trivial type
> bugs which would noramlly be spotted very quickly by someone wh
> understands what their code is doing and how it works.
working with an IDE debugger beats analysing a binary (i.e. hex or
octal) core dump
> ...
hs
Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> Tim X wrote:
>> ...
>> I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
>> programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level
>> IDE which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace
>> through the code one line at a time and watch what happens to
>> variables in a watch window.
>>
>> IMO this is a really bad trend because it means programmers
>> stop thinking about their code and how it actually works. this
>> sort of 'debugging' tends to be extremely slow - especially for
>> trivial type bugs which would noramlly be spotted very quickly
>> by someone wh understands what their code is doing and how it
>> works.
>
> working with an IDE debugger beats analysing a binary (i.e. hex
> or octal) core dump
I can't really remember when I last used a debugger. Judicious
printf statements, or the equivalent, have handled everything for
me for years.
--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
CBFalconer wrote:
> Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
>
>>Tim X wrote:
>>
>>>...
>>>I'm guessing he was referring to the irritating development of
>>>programmers who are not able to debug code without a high level
>>>IDE which includes a debugger which allows them to step/trace
>>>through the code one line at a time and watch what happens to
>>>variables in a watch window.
>>>
>>>IMO this is a really bad trend because it means programmers
>>>stop thinking about their code and how it actually works. this
>>>sort of 'debugging' tends to be extremely slow - especially for
>>>trivial type bugs which would noramlly be spotted very quickly
>>>by someone wh understands what their code is doing and how it
>>>works.
>>
>>working with an IDE debugger beats analysing a binary (i.e. hex
>>or octal) core dump
>
>
> I can't really remember when I last used a debugger. Judicious
> printf statements, or the equivalent, have handled everything for
> me for years.
>
The key issue for me is the round trip time to make a change in the
debug output, recompile, and run to the point of failure. If that takes
a few minutes, I have no problem using printouts.
On the other hand, I have been faced with problems in unfamiliar
programs that took several hours from starting the run to first symptoms
of the problem. Once I was at a failure point, I wanted to squeeze every
scrap of data I could.
An interactive debugger allows you to ask questions you didn't know you
wanted to ask until you saw the answer to another question. For example,
you can see which variable is incorrect at the failure point, look at
the source code to find the variables that affect it, and immediately
probe their values.
Patricia
Patricia Shanahan <····@acm.org> writes:
> CBFalconer wrote:
> > Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
>
> The key issue for me is the round trip time to make a change in the
> debug output, recompile, and run to the point of failure. If that takes
> a few minutes, I have no problem using printouts.
>
> On the other hand, I have been faced with problems in unfamiliar
> programs that took several hours from starting the run to first symptoms
> of the problem. Once I was at a failure point, I wanted to squeeze every
> scrap of data I could.
>
> An interactive debugger allows you to ask questions you didn't know you
> wanted to ask until you saw the answer to another question. For example,
> you can see which variable is incorrect at the failure point, look at
> the source code to find the variables that affect it, and immediately
> probe their values.
OTOH, a debugger is a kludgy way of getting you something like a REPL
environment when you reach a breakpoint or some kind of error. The fact
that the best the debuggers can do is basic arithmetic with symbols
speaks more to the limitations of the program's runtime situation than
any particular interface virtues. An IDE is helpful in that state
displays can be more complicated and remain useful- just try and set up
& maintain a bunch of watchpoints in tty gdb ha ha ha. OTOH, sometimes
its just faster to trap the segfault & probe around in a tty gdb than to
fool around with getting an IDE tweaked just so.
Its quite entertaining when debuggers start providing "advanced"
features like unwinding execution and access to frames back up the
stack. When you begin seriously learning Common Lisp it feels like you
finally get rid of the debugger training wheels.
Gregm
Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> working with an IDE debugger beats analysing a binary (i.e. hex or
> octal) core dump
The goal is decreasing the odds you need to do either.
One way to achieve that goal is to learn debugging and add it to your tool
set.
CBFalconer wrote:
> I can't really remember when I last used a debugger. Judicious
> printf statements, or the equivalent, have handled everything for
> me for years.
You think too much. I don't have that problem.
Patricia Shanahan:
> The key issue for me is the round trip time to make a change in the
> debug output, recompile, and run to the point of failure. If that takes
> a few minutes, I have no problem using printouts.
Hence debuggers that recompile their code on the fly as you change it.
These debuggers support designs that are all coupled together. (For example:
Write an ActiveX control and run it from a server-side ASP.NET page. You
must warm up an entire web server and all its pages just to debug this
control in-situ. MS coupled everything together as part of vendor-lockin.)
> On the other hand, I have been faced with problems in unfamiliar
> programs that took several hours from starting the run to first symptoms
> of the problem. Once I was at a failure point, I wanted to squeeze every
> scrap of data I could.
>
> An interactive debugger allows you to ask questions you didn't know you
> wanted to ask until you saw the answer to another question. For example,
> you can see which variable is incorrect at the failure point, look at
> the source code to find the variables that affect it, and immediately
> probe their values.
Legacy situations suck. We achieve debugger-free development typically in
new code that's fully decoupled and fully designed for testing.
Like I told Russell Shaw, if you can think of the next line of code to type,
you must perforce be able to think of a test case that will fail if that
line is not there.
Someone invented these legacy code situations by debugging down to the place
where the next lines go, adding the lines, and evaluating them on the fly.
Or the equivalent, to within the limits of their muscle memory. This
technique tends to couple everything together.
If you force all code to come through test cases, the test cases must be
able to access their tested lines without intervening layers of cruft. So
Design By Testing is a powerful way to decouple all the modules apart.
If they have any unintended features, after characterizing them (possibly
via debugging), you can very rapidly create new test cases, re-using similar
test cases, and these can isolate the bug before you kill it.
(How many times in legacy code have we given up debugging and just poked
around, hoping to change something so the bug symptoms go away?!)
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Phlip wrote:
> Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
>
>>working with an IDE debugger beats analysing a binary (i.e. hex or
>>octal) core dump
>
> The goal is decreasing the odds you need to do either.
>
> One way to achieve that goal is to learn debugging and add it to your tool
> set.
>
> CBFalconer wrote:
>
>>I can't really remember when I last used a debugger. Judicious
>>printf statements, or the equivalent, have handled everything for
>>me for years.
>
> You think too much. I don't have that problem.
>
> Patricia Shanahan:
>
>>The key issue for me is the round trip time to make a change in the
>>debug output, recompile, and run to the point of failure. If that takes
>>a few minutes, I have no problem using printouts.
>
> Hence debuggers that recompile their code on the fly as you change it.
>
> These debuggers support designs that are all coupled together. (For example:
> Write an ActiveX control and run it from a server-side ASP.NET page. You
> must warm up an entire web server and all its pages just to debug this
> control in-situ. MS coupled everything together as part of vendor-lockin.)
>
>
>>On the other hand, I have been faced with problems in unfamiliar
>>programs that took several hours from starting the run to first symptoms
>>of the problem. Once I was at a failure point, I wanted to squeeze every
>>scrap of data I could.
>>
>>An interactive debugger allows you to ask questions you didn't know you
>>wanted to ask until you saw the answer to another question. For example,
>>you can see which variable is incorrect at the failure point, look at
>>the source code to find the variables that affect it, and immediately
>>probe their values.
>
> Legacy situations suck. We achieve debugger-free development typically in
> new code that's fully decoupled and fully designed for testing.
>
> Like I told Russell Shaw, if you can think of the next line of code to type,
> you must perforce be able to think of a test case that will fail if that
> line is not there.
>
> Someone invented these legacy code situations by debugging down to the place
> where the next lines go, adding the lines, and evaluating them on the fly.
> Or the equivalent, to within the limits of their muscle memory. This
> technique tends to couple everything together.
>
> If you force all code to come through test cases, the test cases must be
> able to access their tested lines without intervening layers of cruft. So
> Design By Testing is a powerful way to decouple all the modules apart.
>
> If they have any unintended features, after characterizing them (possibly
> via debugging), you can very rapidly create new test cases, re-using similar
> test cases, and these can isolate the bug before you kill it.
>
> (How many times in legacy code have we given up debugging and just poked
> around, hoping to change something so the bug symptoms go away?!)
The tedious stuff i've done would never have been started if i'd tried to
know the exact end result so that i could work back to a lower level, and
write tests for what i wanted. It's more a case of poking in the dark, having
a rough overall idea of how the whole thing should work, and writing and
debugging a rough framework that gets more things added to it during a lot
of chopping and changing along the way. It's more like evolutionary code
that grows from a very rough and hard to define shape. That said, i also
design the overall thing in a way that is modular and easy to test. Then
you could write unit tests for the interfaces between modules. I'd never
write intra-module tests, because that would take 3-5x the resources taken
to write the original code for me. For something like a GUI program, i make
the GUI generate commands that the backend then interprets, so that it can
also be script driven and have automated test scripts.
CBFalconer writes:
>> working with an IDE debugger beats analysing a binary (i.e. hex
>> or octal) core dump
>
> I can't really remember when I last used a debugger. Judicious
> printf statements, or the equivalent, have handled everything for
> me for years.
And any programmer who can't do it that way isn't worth his salt.
But using an interactive debugger--when you do need to debug--is
so much easier, faster and,... well, more fun.
And, as Patricia wrote, it lets you poke around and investigate
things--that can be very helpful.
My bottom line is that you NEED to know how to do it the basic way,
and you need to be comfortable doing that, but given access to
advanced tools, there's no reason not to use'm.
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <874q9qf9vk.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I've never used any programming language commercially, except 2.5 weeks
> of Think C 9n 1992.
So all those stories about years of programming experience were
basically untrue ?
I hate to say this, but at 50-60 years of age, with no
track-record or industry experience, you are not going to get a job in programming.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Not untrue (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug20-006@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> > I've never used any programming language commercially, except 2.5 weeks
> > of Think C in 1992.
> So all those stories about years of programming experience were
> basically untrue ?
Nope, where would you get such a silly idea?
About half my work was paid by Stanford University:
- develop software to be used within the university (data compression,
XGP document layout, SL/PSL porting, processing images)
- perform pure research (NMR relaxation, natural language understanding)
- develop software to be tested in local high schools (CAI-calculus)
None of that software was for commercial sale.
About half my work was unpaid, just working on software that I considered
of benefit to the world at large, or fun stuff, or teaching myself new
stuff, plus one major open-source group project at communication protocols.
Only 2.5 weeks was on for-sale commercial software: converting bitmap
image into parameterizations of all the lineaments within it
And 5 months enhancing copy-file utility and fixing bugs in COBOL compiler.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
>> > I've never used any programming language commercially, except 2.5 weeks
>> > of Think C in 1992.
>
<snip>
>
> Only 2.5 weeks was on for-sale commercial software:
The term "commercially", applied to the use of a programming language, is
not restricted solely to programs intended for sale on the open market.
Let's say you work for Walmart, and spend a year writing POS software for
their cash tills. They're never going to sell that software, but
nevertheless that year counts as a year of commercial programming
experience.
--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
mail: rjh at above domain
In article <············@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
·······@address.co.uk.invalid says...
> Let's say you work for Walmart, and spend a year writing POS software for
> their cash tills.
When acronyms clash...
- Gerry Quinn
Gerry Quinn wrote:
> In article <············@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
> ·······@address.co.uk.invalid says...
>
>> Let's say you work for Walmart, and spend a year writing POS software for
>> their cash tills.
>
> When acronyms clash...
Oops. I hadn't noticed that. But of course you're right. In fact, it's
amazing just how much commercial programming experience people have gained
from writing POS. :-)
--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
mail: rjh at above domain
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>, ·······@Yahoo.Com says...
> My most recent employment is more than ten years ago. I've gotten good
> advice *not* to make my lack of recent employment a major attraction in
> my resume, or it'd be tossed before any of the good stuff would ever be
> seen.
> I've also been advised very strongly not to include any employment more
> than ten years ago, and to only summarize anything between five and ten
> years ago, not list it individually.
That advice pre-supposes that there is something more recent that you
will be talking about instead!
For what it's worth, I think you should consider looking for some job
right now that will give you exercise preferably in the open air, and
give your brain a bit of a rest. You might find that things look
different after a couple of months.
- Gerry Quinn
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Your question is based on a false premise. I **have** been trying to
> get programming jobs in areas where I have expertise (educational
> software, information retrieval/access, etc.), but I've never been able
> to find anyone interested in my skills in those areas. The closest I
> ever came was when my former boss referred me to a company that did
> educational software for children, and took me on a tour of what they
> were doing, but none of it was actually educational where it actually
> makes sure a child learns something, it was all play-explore stuff
> which is fine for spending idle time getting familiar with some stuff
> that looks interesting but is totally insufficient at making sure the
> child ever really learned anything. It's like a computer version of the
> child watching Sesame Street all day. Yeah, the child eventually picks
> up a few things here and there, but there's no competance at anything.
> So anyway I was told they aren't interested in any software that
> actually teaches the child anything, only in making sure the child
> enjoys the experience of playing with the computer games, so none of my
> experience is of any value there.
Isn't that a problem? Couldn't you solve it?
Forget about getting a job: you're not a "professionnal".
(read Jeff Schmidt's, "Discplined Minds. a critical look at salaried
professionals and the soul battering system that shapes their lives.")
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0742516857/qid=1124211076/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-5385686-2832937?v=glance&s=books
Instead, start up an enterprise to develop and commercialize truly
educationnal software. Well, start progressively. You've already got
some code you said. So make sure that it's better than most of the
reading educational software described in the 7,620,000 hits returned
by google http://www.google.com/search?q=reading+educational+software
and package it into an easily downloadable and installable software,
an make a web page to let parents download it against Paypal payment.
Once you've got a little war treasury from paypal payments, you'll be
able to feed yourself and perhaps an employee to develop a arithmetic
educational software, and then a whole calatlog.
--
"Remember, Information is not knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom;
Wisdom is not truth; Truth is not beauty; Beauty is not love;
Love is not music; Music is the best." -- Frank Zappa
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > Your resume is completely incorrect - its too long
>
> Let me check it right now:
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.98B.txt
> That's 60 lines of text. You're correct, it's too long too many lines.
> How many lines is the maximum for a resume?
If you have a lot of "meat", you can possibly go as long as 3 pages -
but thats not 3 pages of plain ascii, thats 3 pages correctly
formatted in an "accepted" format - MS Word Doc or PDF. Normally,
about 2 pages of formatted text (with headings, columns, tables,
bold/italic/unerline etc.
> > its badly formatted
>
> It looks formatted pretty well given the one-page restriction and plain
> ASCII text, but perhaps you have some specific changes you'd like?
Plan ascii text won't do it. People like to see something which is
presented well - it shows effort, ability to use a word processor and
possibly some style. Your resume needs to be eye catching and it needs
to be presented in such a way that the person reading it can identify
the key bits immediately and not have to read the whole thing. You
have to remember in larger organisations, the initial culling of
applications is usually done by some junior staff member from the HR
department - they know nothing about programming, computer or IT. They
have a list of key words or criteria which they look for - those that
have it get to the next stage, those that don't get filed in the round
filing cabinet under the desk!
>
> > and lots of it is totally irrelevent in the current market.
>
> What specifically? I'd be glad to cut out parts that the majority of
> people in this newsgroup consider so grossly worthless that I shouldn't
> include them even though I spent a lot of time doing those things and
> it would really be dishonest to exclude them, but if dishonesty by
> omission is necessary to get a job I'm willing to bend. So which items
> specifically should I delete?
Well, as you have soooo many resumes at the web site, I couldn't be
bothered reading all of them (hint). The one I looked at had lots
about programming assembler on computers that haven't be around for
20+ years i.e. PDP-10. All of that could have been summarised as
something like x years assembler programming. this would show you have
that skill - the specifics is not that relevant unless the job had a
specific requirement. Again, the objective is to just peak interest,
not tell them all the detail.
> > You need to do a well formatted CV
>
> No, I most definitely do not want a CV for applying for non-academic
> jobs doing software development.
> http://jobsearch.about.com/cs/curriculumvitae/a/curriculumvitae.htm
> http://www.careers.ucr.edu/students/graduates/cvsample.html
> http://jobsearch.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurograduate.com%2Fplan2.html
> http://www.quintcareers.com/curriculum_vitae.html
> http://www.careers.ucr.edu/Students/Graduates/CV/
> I want a resume, not a CV, because a resume, not a CV, is what is asked
> by *all* job ads I've seen in this area.
You can use CV or resume - these days, the two are pretty
interchangable. Generally, a CV indicates you have a degree. However,
use what you feel most comfortable with and stop nit pickiing - you
know perfectly well what I was getting at.
> > clearly labelled in sections with brief but informative text.
>
> It's already that. What are you complaining about??
The one I looked at was not clearly labelled and looked pretty bloody
awful.
> > Employment Histor (from most recent to oldest)
>
> My most recent employment is more than ten years ago. I've gotten good
> advice *not* to make my lack of recent employment a major attraction in
> my resume, or it'd be tossed before any of the good stuff would ever be
> seen.
You don't have any "good stuff"! Normally, that advice would be pretty
good, but you need to show that you can hold down employment and if
you don't put it in, you have nothing. Besides, the resume I looked at
had stuff going all the way back to high school and all your
employment from the 70's. If your going to put it all in, put it in
reverse order.
>
> I've also been advised very strongly not to include any employment more
> than ten years ago, and to only summarize anything between five and ten
> years ago, not list it individually.
Well, thats not what was in the resume I looked at.
> > Programming Lnaguages
> > (Usually, you would only include languages you have used commercially)
>
> I've never used any programming language commercially, except 2.5 weeks
> of Think C 9n 1992.
then your stuffed.
> > if you only listed all your experience with assembler on PDPs etc,
> > then its unlikely you would be considered except in the very unlikely
> > case where some company had an old PDP-10 and just happened to need an
> > assembly programmer. However, if on the other hand you presented
> > yourself as someone with a proven track record of workinig in
> > assembler, someone with a good grasp of low level hardware programming
> > and someone capable oflearning, then possibly you would be thought of
> > when that job comes up workinig on developing software for that new
> > chip xxxxxx.
>
> Well there was one resume I wrote that didn't say any specifics at all,
> no PDP-10 or 6502 or 8080 or 68000 or IBM-1620 or IBM-1130, only the
> number/variety of different things I did to emphasize how I've learned
> so many different languages/environments/applicationAreas that surely I
> can easily learn five or ten more on a new job.
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
> It's only 57 lines, three lines shorter than the other. Maybe you'd
> like it better?
No, it still looks like crap.
> > forget all about that stuff regarding decoding URI elements
> > etc - thats just trivial stuff, a real no brainer for which you can
> > usually find pre-existing libraries/modules to do all the work
> > anyway.
>
> I agree. That's why for C and C++ I used Google to find a free set of
> code to do the form-contents-decoding, not part of a large library, but
> just a standalone piece of already-debugged (almost, I had to fix a few
> bugs before they'd work on this system) that would be small enough that
> I could show it as part of my demo of how to do CGI/C and CGI/C++
> software. I made sure the C code was pure C, no cheating by using stuff
> that the Gnu C/C++ compiler or Visual-C++ compiler could fake in C
> program even though it wasn't valid ANSI C but was actually C++. Also I
> made sure the C++ code was true C++ code in both standard and style,
> not C code that got minimal transformation to run under C++
> environment but which was actually C at heart and only sham of C++.
In 25 years involvement in IT, I've never once been asked to show a
demo. In the past 10 years, I cannot remember the number of selection
committees etc I've been on and not once have we ever asked to see a
demo.
think of it this way -
1. You send off an application which includes a 1 page covering
letting, your resume and possibly, if asked for in the ad,
demonstration (in words) of how you meet the selection criteria. If
they do list selection criteria, address each of them individually
with clear headings and don't use more than 1 or two paragraphs for
each. If they don't list or ask for you to demonstrate how you meet
each criteria, make your covering letter a bit longer (no more than
two pages) presenting a convincing argument why you should be
selected for interview and what you think you have of benefit to
them. The only goal at this point is to make them believe your
worth interviewing either because you meet all the selection
criteria or because you bring something new to the table which
peaks their interest.
> > you are almost guaranteed never to get any ral work consulting
> > because you have no recent proven track record and no track record in
> > current technologies.
>
> I tried looking for regular employment for years, but lots of people
> told me that was impossible, that I need to get some short-term
> contract work, and then with that proven track record some company
> might risk hiring me on the longer term, in fact one of the short-term
> contracts might develop into a long-term job. So you see I get so much
> contradictory advice that I really have to ignore most of it, and
> accept only that which doesn't contract a lot of other advice I also
> get.
That rarely works. You are almost never ever going to get contract
work or consulting work without a proven current track record. Nobody
is going to take the risk of getting fired for employing someone with
no proven ability or track record - even if they thought you were very
capable and possibly a good choice, they will go with the safer person
who has (or appears to have) a good track record.
> > Your technical commercial experience is outdated
>
> My only technical commercial experience, except for 2.5 weeks in 1992,
> is within the past 2.2 years. How can you say such recent experience is
> outdated? Are Visual Basic, C, C++, and Java, all outdated, in your
> opinion?
No, they are not outdated, but you do not have any real commercial
experience in any of those - stuff you have done on your own does not
count for anything - its only commercial experience they are
interested in and since by your own admission you have not had a job
in ove 10 years, I can't see how you could claim Java experience (nor
C/C++ for that matter).
> > Unless you can convince an employer that you have something which the
> > others don't and its something the employer considers valuable, you
> > have no hope.
>
> I have a lot of good talent and skills, valuable to an employer, that
> most others don't have. Maybe you can help me convince an employer to
> recognize that?
No, you are the one who has to convince them. However, your
argumentative attitude, constant blaming of your situation on external
forces and (unfairly) your age are all against you. I do not see you
getting a job as a Java, C or C++ programmer in this lifetime.
> > I have to wonder why you haven't been trying to get more specific
> > programming jobs that relate to what seems to have been one of your
> > strength areas.
>
> Your question is based on a false premise. I **have** been trying to
> get programming jobs in areas where I have expertise (educational
> software, information retrieval/access, etc.), but I've never been able
> to find anyone interested in my skills in those areas. The closest I
> ever came was when my former boss referred me to a company that did
> educational software for children, and took me on a tour of what they
> were doing, but none of it was actually educational where it actually
> makes sure a child learns something, it was all play-explore stuff
> which is fine for spending idle time getting familiar with some stuff
> that looks interesting but is totally insufficient at making sure the
> child ever really learned anything. It's like a computer version of the
> child watching Sesame Street all day. Yeah, the child eventually picks
> up a few things here and there, but there's no competance at anything.
> So anyway I was told they aren't interested in any software that
> actually teaches the child anything, only in making sure the child
> enjoys the experience of playing with the computer games, so none of my
> experience is of any value there.
I must have missed the part in your resume which outlined your
commercial experience in writing educational software. All I saw was
work at Santa Cruz and Stanford - but I could easily have missed it as
the resume was not very well formatted and very boring. I have to
admit, I lost interest about half way through (which should tell you
something).
> > why not look for jobs with companies doing software which has a
> > strong mathematical basis - modelling, communications, signal
> > processing etc.
>
> I have no experience in the kind of modeling you're talking about, nor
> in any signal processing whatsoever. The only communications jobs I've
> seen required specific experience managing/configuring TCP/IP stacks,
> which I've never done.
I suggested this because your degree was in mathematics, your awards
at school were in mathematics and you obviously (I thought) had an
aptitude in this area. Finding programmers with really good solid
backgrounds in maths is actually qite difficult - thre seems to be a
lot of programmers out there which have mastered programming, but are
very poor in maths. I know of quite a lot of companies who have had a
very difficult time finding good programmers which are also talented
at maths. Some of the most interesting programming jobs I've seen fall
into this catagory. Lets face it, web application programming can be
extremely dull and there are lots of people willing to do it. However,
programming in areas relating to things like modelling of complex
systems, stock breeding/genetics, processing signals from various
sensors, application of technology in new areas etc, can be extremely
rewarding. Personally, I find this sort of work far more interesting
than web apps or basic information storage and retrieval. While there
may not be as many jobs in these areas, there is also a lot less
competition. Also, in these types of jobs, they tend to be less
interested in your knowledge of the "hot" language technology and mroe
interested in your abilities to solve problems etc.
> > Why are you even bothering trying to compete in an area which is
> > flooded with programmers (Java/Web)
>
> Because Java is my second-best language, my best being Lisp, and there
> are no jobs whatsoever in Lisp, whereas 2.5 years ago I actually saw a
> job ad for Java that I would have qualified for a year later. So I'm
> only one year away from a chance at a Java job, whereas twenty years
> away from any other kind of job.
If thats the case, I would *strongly* suggest you give up looking for
a programming job - apart from not ahving any experience, I'm now
skeptical about your ability to program.
The reason I make such an outrageous statement is that I beleive the
language is, in the main, irrelevant. What is more important is your
understanding of the underlying concepts (data structurers,
algorithms, analytical skill and the ability to apply these skills).
etc). The language is just syntax and less important. I've often
employed people who did not have much experience in the specific
language being used, but had excellent understanding of data
structures, algorithms and their analysis and the ability to take a
problem, analyse it and design a robust and maintainable solution. In
fact, nearly every time I've changed jobs, I've ended up having to
learn a new language. Like the book titles say "Learn XXX in 21 Days"
- you only need that long to learn the syntax - it takes a lot longer
to learn how to analyse a problem, identify the correct data
abstractions and algorithms and then implement the solution - the
implementation is the easy part (assuming you got the earlier steps
correct).
> > Play to your strengths!
>
> Show me one job opening that matches my strenghths in Lisp programming
> or computer-assisted instruction.
Again, I woldn't consider those to really be strengths. Your strengths
are (possibly) in your rigor and ability to abstract a problem down to
its fundamental parts (coming from a maths background), possibly your
life experiences, possibly skills you developed in what little work
you have had etc. I will employ the prson who fits in with the rest of
the team, shows they are self motivated and have initiative and keen
before I'll ever employ that bitter twisted arrogant and difficult
loner who has 10 yeras experience with the language we use - its much
easier to teach simple language syntax than to change someones
personality or waste resources getting them motivated etc.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> You can use CV or resume - these days, the two are pretty
> interchangable. Generally, a CV indicates you have a degree.
My impression is that the term resum� is used mostly in the US and CV
(curriculum vitae) in Europe. See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curriculum_vitae
Petter
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <m3d5odmk8r.fsf@4dv.net>
Petter Gustad <·············@gustad.com> writes:
>
> My impression is that the term resumé is used mostly in the US and CV
> (curriculum vitae) in Europe.
At least in my experience, a resume is purely work-related, and hence
fairly short, whereas a curriculum vitae is everything one has done, and
can thus be quite long.
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Ne Cede Malis Sed Contra Audientor Ito
Don't yield to misfortunes, but go more boldly to meet them.
--Virgil
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <FkgNe.4090$R5.831@news.indigo.ie>
Robert Uhl wrote:
> At least in my experience, a resume is purely work-related, and hence
> fairly short, whereas a curriculum vitae is everything one has done,
> and can thus be quite long.
>
That's my understanding of the usage in the US - however in europe (or
at least the english-speaking bits), CV is used where an american would
say resume - see e.g
http://www.recruitireland.com/careercentre/news/rinews.asp?articleid=680&zoneid=34
"You know how irritating it is to receive endless junk mail? Employers
feel exactly the same way about badly-written, unsolicited CVs."
"No-one cares about your life history. No-one! Get it down on one or two
pages. Put the information that is most pertinent, recent and
persuasive to that employer first and work your way down from there."
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: SeekJob keywords (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug24-008@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> in larger organisations, the initial culling of applications is
> usually done by some junior staff member from the HR department - they
> know nothing about programming, computer or IT. They have a list of key
> words or criteria which they look for - those that have it get to the
> next stage, those that don't get filed in the round filing cabinet
> under the desk!
So would you recommend the keywords be listed in logical sections, such
as programming languages in one list, platforms in another list,
application areas in another list, etc., or should I just mix all the
unrelated keywords together in one huge alphabetical list to make it
easy for the junior staff member to find the keywords he/she is looking
for?
Given my experience, which keywords from my various resumes should I
keep, which should I flush, and which keywords do I not yet have but
based on my experience I should include as synonyms for the non-keyword
descriptions I already have? To save you the trouble of looking through
my dozen resumes, here's the complete list currently:
1620
360/370
6502
68000
8080
acia
algol
altair 8800a
anti-spam
applet
archie
arpanet
assembler
awt
bachelor of science degree
balanced binary trees
bitmapped image of graph to parameterized lineaments
bitnet
blockade puzzles for 3-yr-olds or dan quayle
bnf-driven type-checking
c
c++
cai
calculus
canonical representations
card input
cgi
class-assignment
client/server telecommunications
clustering
cmucl
cobol
college graduate
combinatorics
computer-assisted instruction
console typewriter
consumerism
cross-reference
data compression
ddt
dec pdp-10
destructuring
device interfaces
diablo disks
diet optimization
differential algebra
differential polynomials
dm2500 emulator
docindex
dom
eqd
expert system
file maintenance and indexing
finger
flashcard drill
forth
fortran
four-phase iv/70
fractals
frontpanel
ftp
gcd
generalized computer dating
graph hockey
gui
hashing
heapsort
help-net
hermes
high-level languages
html
hypercard
hypertalk
i/o device interrupt handlers
ibm 1130
ibm 1620
ibm 360/370
image processing
imsss
indexing
info-nets
information retrieval and indexing
intel 8080
interval arithmetic
interval refinement stochastic mapping
inventions
its
j2ee
j2se
java
javadoc
javascript
jdbc
jsax
jsp
jsys
kermit
large prime numbers
lattice manipulation
laying out text
linux
lisp
listserv
maasinfo
machine language
macintosh
macintosh allegro common lisp
macl
maclisp
macsyma
mail
mainsail
mathematical research
mathematical-formula printer
mathematics
mathprinter
mensa
meta-index
microsoft windows
mos 6502
ms-windows
natural language understanding
net-relaxation
netnews
netscout
nmr relaxation
note
nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation
numrel
nutritional diets.
odbc
opacs
os traps
packet-based data communication
packet-based telecommunications
pacs-l
payroll
pcnet
pdp-10
perl
permutations
php
pnews
pocket forth
portable standard lisp
porting
pre-registration
prettyprinter
principal differential ideals
processing and rendering remote-sensing multi-spectral images
programmer/analyst
proofreading
proximity-hashing
pseudo-random numbers
psl
putnam contest
pvm
rdrlist
redhat linux
reduce
rlisp
rmail
rmi
rn
rsa cryptosystem
rscs
s-expressions
sail
save/restore environment
sax
segmat
servlets
sesame c
shortanswertests
single-step debugger
sl
software engineer
sokoban puzzles for 3-yr-olds or dan quayle
sort/merge
space exploration
sprouts
standard lisp
stanford
stipple
sunos
svc202 commands
swing
syntax&semantics checking
syscalls
telecommunications
telnet
tenex
terminal emulation
text compression
toolbox traps
topindex
toplevel meta-index
tops-10
uci-lisp
university payroll
university pre-registration
unix
us citizen
usenet
uuo
vb
versaterm
virus detection and removal
visual basic
visual c/c++
vm/cms
waits
wilbur
word problems
wordprob
writing & public info
www
xml
zmodem
zterm
So which of those are so grossly obsolete that there's no chance anyone
will ever want somebody with such experience, so I should permanently
delete them from my keywords list? Which new keywords did I overlook?
> All of that could have been summarised as something like x years
> assembler programming.
Which is better keyword for that: assembler or assembly-language?
Or should both be included in case the junior staff member is looking
for the other one and doesn't realize they mean the same thing?
(Splitting my reply here, in case anyone stopped reading at that list
of keywords and wouldn't see the rest of the topics I'm discussing
later in the second part of this reply.)
From: CBFalconer
Subject: Re: SeekJob keywords (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price...)
Date:
Message-ID: <430D7875.8E3DDF42@yahoo.com>
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" wrote:
>
... snip ...
>
> Given my experience, which keywords from my various resumes should
> I keep, which should I flush, and which keywords do I not yet have
> but based on my experience I should include as synonyms for the
> non-keyword descriptions I already have? To save you the trouble
> of looking through my dozen resumes, here's the complete list
> currently:
I have deleted all those that should be ignored IMO.
> 68000
> applet
> assembler
> bachelor of science degree
> balanced binary trees
> bnf-driven type-checking
> c
> c++
> calculus
> canonical representations
> cgi
> client/server telecommunications
> cobol
> cross-reference
> data compression
> device interfaces
> expert system
> file maintenance and indexing
> forth
> fortran
> fractals
> ftp
> gui
> hashing
> heapsort
> high-level languages
> html
> i/o device interrupt handlers
> image processing
> information retrieval and indexing
> java
> javadoc
> javascript
> linux
> lisp
> machine language
> macintosh
> mail
> mathematics
> microsoft windows
> ms-windows
> nuclear magnetic resonance relaxation
> packet-based telecommunications
> payroll
> perl
> php
> prettyprinter
> programmer/analyst
> proofreading
> redhat linux
> rsa cryptosystem
> software engineer
> sort/merge
> standard lisp
> sunos
> swing
> telecommunications
> telnet
> text compression
> unix
> usenet
> visual basic
> visual c/c++
Some deleted because they are meaningless to me. I probably should
have deleted even more.
--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > in larger organisations, the initial culling of applications is
> > usually done by some junior staff member from the HR department - they
> > know nothing about programming, computer or IT. They have a list of key
> > words or criteria which they look for - those that have it get to the
> > next stage, those that don't get filed in the round filing cabinet
> > under the desk!
>
> So would you recommend the keywords be listed in logical sections, such
> as programming languages in one list, platforms in another list,
> application areas in another list, etc., or should I just mix all the
> unrelated keywords together in one huge alphabetical list to make it
> easy for the junior staff member to find the keywords he/she is looking
> for?
Robert,
I, personally, write my resume so the company knows who I am and what I
can do for them. If they list requirements I will make it INCREDIBLY easy
for them to see that I meet or exceed their requirements. If the company
uses someone who just scans the resume for keywords then most likely they
are scanning the resume for keywords relating to the requirements for the
position.
If they are just looking for a list of unrelated keywords then why would
you want to work for them.
For example, if you apply for a job at IBM they have you do an online
application. The application will quiz you on your skill set and level of
experience. You will notice that all the technologies they quiz you about
are also listed in the job ad requirements.
> > All of that could have been summarised as something like x years
> > assembler programming.
>
> Which is better keyword for that: assembler or assembly-language?
> Or should both be included in case the junior staff member is looking
> for the other one and doesn't realize they mean the same thing?
I never worry about this sort of thing. If the company is not going to put
forth the effort to know assembler and assembly-language are the same
thing then why would I want to work for them. I'm willing to put a great
deal of effort into applying for a job but I expect the employer to put
some effort into it as well.
--
Send e-mail to: darrell dot grainger at utoronto dot ca
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: SeekJob keywords (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep03-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ·······@does.want.spam.com (".")
> I, personally, write my resume so the company knows who I am
That phrase makes no sense to me. Who you are is you, exactly you, and
nothing else except you. To say that you are somebody other than
yourself is nonsense. It makes no sense to tell somebody who you are
because you are you and they already know you are you.
> and what I can do for them.
This part makes more sense. Part of what you can do is just generally
the sorts of things you can do for anyone. Part of what you can do is
more specifically what you can do for that one company that would be
impossible to do for any other company, such as add features to a
product only this one company makes. Do I seem to understand that you
are referring to?
> If they list requirements I will make it INCREDIBLY easy for them to
> see that I meet or exceed their requirements. If the company uses
> someone who just scans the resume for keywords then most likely they
> are scanning the resume for keywords relating to the requirements for
> the position.
You are obviously talking about writing custom resumes, a different
resume for each job you see advertised such that you respond to it. It
has been recommended that I apply for ten jobs per day, despite the
fact that I haven't seen even one job I qualify for in the past ten
years, and it takes a full workday of scanning job sites such as
CraigsList just to find one or two jobs where I only half qualify.
It takes weeks or months to compose a brand new resume from scratch
without any base resume as a starting point. At present I have a half
dozen general resumes and a half dozen specific-area resumes, any one
of which might serve as a starting point for editing to yield a custom
resume for a single job ad. Unfortunately general concensus is that
every last one of my existing resumes is total crap and not suitable
for using as a base for any custom resume. I don't believe adding a
bunch of custom keywords to a crap resume would get me an interview, do
you?
> For example, if you apply for a job at IBM they have you do an online
> application. The application will quiz you on your skill set and level of
> experience. You will notice that all the technologies they quiz you about
> are also listed in the job ad requirements.
IBM actively discriminates against disabled people such as myself in
their advertising of jobs available, so I'd just as soon not discuss
them any further here.
> If the company is not going to put forth the effort to know assembler
> and assembly-language are the same thing then why would I want to work
> for them. I'm willing to put a great deal of effort into applying for a
> job but I expect the employer to put some effort into it as well.
I'm desperate for a job. If it's a company such as IBM that makes it
impossible for disabled people to even see their job ads, then I
dismiss them as fucking shitheads who deserve to be bombed by the
military by "friendly fire" or boycotted by all organizations that help
disabled people or all their employee's cars being attacked with 2-by-4
sticks of wood to break windows and dent bodies by vigilantees who are
fed up with their anti-disabled-people attitude. But if the company's
only problem is that they didn't happen to think of all the synomyms
when configuring their resume-filtering software, I'd be glad to
include both synonyms just to make sure their little oversight doesn't
deprive me of a job. I would consider their Web being accessible to
disabled people, so we can at least see their job ads, to be sufficient
effort by the employer.
>> If they list requirements I will make it INCREDIBLY easy for them to
>> see that I meet or exceed their requirements. If the company uses
>> someone who just scans the resume for keywords then most likely they
>> are scanning the resume for keywords relating to the requirements for
>> the position.
>
> You are obviously talking about writing custom resumes, a different
> resume for each job you see advertised such that you respond to
> it. It has been recommended that I apply for ten jobs per day,
> despite the fact that I haven't seen even one job I qualify for in
> the past ten years, and it takes a full workday of scanning job
> sites such as CraigsList just to find one or two jobs where I only
> half qualify.
>
> It takes weeks or months to compose a brand new resume from scratch
> without any base resume as a starting point. At present I have a
> half dozen general resumes and a half dozen specific-area resumes,
> any one of which might serve as a starting point for editing to
> yield a custom resume for a single job ad. Unfortunately general
> concensus is that every last one of my existing resumes is total
> crap and not suitable for using as a base for any custom resume. I
> don't believe adding a bunch of custom keywords to a crap resume
> would get me an interview, do you?
OK, so that seems to establish that it is hopeless for you to present
resumes to the sorts of organizations that post opportunities in those
sorts of places.
>> For example, if you apply for a job at IBM they have you do an
>> online application. The application will quiz you on your skill set
>> and level of experience. You will notice that all the technologies
>> they quiz you about are also listed in the job ad requirements.
>
> IBM actively discriminates against disabled people such as myself in
> their advertising of jobs available, so I'd just as soon not discuss
> them any further here.
Presumably they aren't interested in hiring a lot of people that are
going to be more costly than the "productivity" that they provide.
And if you're "disabled," there's definitely going to be some cost to
them to support you.
Unfortunately, that factor applies equally to plenty of organizations
other than just IBM.
Any company that is sufficiently large will have sufficient similarity
to IBM that they're probably hopeless for you to apply to for a job.
Unfortunately, smaller companies, that haven't got IBM's stunning
levels of bureaucracy, aren't likely to have a place where you'll fit,
either. IBM has the "merit" that they're so enormous and
management-bound that they have rather a lot of room for people who
aren't productive to fit in without being noticed.
Small companies can't afford to hire people that offer the risk of
lack of productivity that your disabilities present.
>> If the company is not going to put forth the effort to know
>> assembler and assembly-language are the same thing then why would I
>> want to work for them. I'm willing to put a great deal of effort
>> into applying for a job but I expect the employer to put some
>> effort into it as well.
>
> I'm desperate for a job.
Unfortunately, that is unlikely to change.
Desperation is typically downright unhelpful in such processes; it
represents a further "disability," albeit one which can be cured.
Based on what you have said in the discussions you have participated
in, I know that I'd have grave reservations about considering you as a
candidate for *any* sort of job. Unfortunately, for you, that seems
to be a common reaction.
I just can't see any likelihood of your entering a career in either
Lisp or Java programming, regardless of any unemployment office's
"aptitude tests" to the contrary.
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" ·@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/
If we were meant to fly, we wouldn't keep losing our luggage.
On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:29:49 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>
>That phrase makes no sense to me. Who you are is you, exactly you, and
>nothing else except you. To say that you are somebody other than
>yourself is nonsense. It makes no sense to tell somebody who you are
>because you are you and they already know you are you.
<sigh> I've finally had enough. This newsgroup is not appropriate for
thousands of lines relating to the ongoing tale of one man's effort to
find employment. You have the honor of joining a very select group. I
have filtered only two others from this newsgroup.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
··························@att.net
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: SeekJob keywords (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87oe7jhapb.fsf@david-steuber.com>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > in larger organisations, the initial culling of applications is
> > usually done by some junior staff member from the HR department - they
> > know nothing about programming, computer or IT. They have a list of key
> > words or criteria which they look for - those that have it get to the
> > next stage, those that don't get filed in the round filing cabinet
> > under the desk!
>
> So would you recommend the keywords be listed in logical sections, such
> as programming languages in one list, platforms in another list,
> application areas in another list, etc., or should I just mix all the
> unrelated keywords together in one huge alphabetical list to make it
> easy for the junior staff member to find the keywords he/she is looking
> for?
Here's what you do. Take your resume and alphabetize it, removing
duplicates. Just as an example, the quoted text from your post would
look like this:
> I So all alphabetical another application areas as be easy etc.,
> find for for? he/she huge in is it junior just keywords languages
> list list, listed logical looking make member mix one or platforms
> programming recommend sections, should staff such the to together
> unrelated would you
This is the result of using `sort | uniq > foo.txt` with an Emacs
shell command after replacing the \#Space characters with \#Newline
and then fixing it back up again after the sort. Clearly the
algorithm can be refined a bit. Case insensitive sorting would be
good as well as fixing the punctuation.
An alternative is to insert the keywords into your resume in the same
order that they appear in the job ad.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Accomplishments, math (was: How much should I charge for fixed-...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug24-009@Yahoo.Com>
> You don't have any "good stuff"!
Please look in
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/ResApp.00C-Acc.txt
and tell me briefly why each accomplishment is not good.
> I must have missed the part in your resume which outlined your
> commercial experience in writing educational software. All I saw was
> work at Santa Cruz and Stanford
I have no idea where you came up with Santa Cruz here.
My work at Stanford was developing innonative new software which was
then tested in several low-income high schools in East San Jose to
evaluate it for more general distribution. I don't know whether the
schools had to pay or got it for free, but I'd guess the latter.
> Finding programmers with really good solid backgrounds in maths is
> actually qite difficult
Anyone unable to find an unemployed math whiz must be pretty stupid.
If anyone really wanted math whizzes, I would never have been
unemployed. John McCarthy was the only person who ever offered me a job
on the basis of my math awards, and after six months of my working for
free to impress him he hired me for only a two-month temporary job, not
anything longterm or even medium-term, so it almost counts for nothing,
i.e. my math was *never* a positive factor in getting any real job.
> I know of quite a lot of companies who have had a very difficult time
> finding good programmers which are also talented at maths.
If you know of any with offices/branches in this part of California,
please tell me the company names, and if possible names of people in
each such company who might like to hear I'm available.
> I'm now skeptical about your ability to program.
Given the very large number of applications and utilities I've written
in the past, and my continued software development (when I'm not
spending all my time responding to newsgroup messages instead), what
makes you be skeptical in that way? Do you need me to write some
software for you to prove I can still do it even now? What evidence
would it take to convince you that even though I'm currently not
employed I still can and do program?
> I beleive [sic] the language is, in the main, irrelevant.
I half agree with you. See below.
> What is more important is your understanding of the underlying
> concepts (data structurers, algorithms, analytical skill and the
> ability to apply these skills). etc).
I fully agree.
> The language is just syntax and less important.
Now here is where you show your gross ignorance of the variety of
programming languages available. Some such as C are almost nothing
more than assembly language with a user-friendly syntax. Indeed they
don't provide any major facilities different from assembly language.
The only big difference is syntax.
But when you compare Lisp or Java, you see a much richer runtime
environment, which is partly reflected in the syntax, but really it's
the runtime environment that makes the difference. What is a royal pain
to program in C is trivial in Lisp and very easy in Java.
When programming in C, you're spending your time re-inventing the wheel
over and over instead of just getting on with implementing the data
structures you need and writing the algorithms to use those data
structures effectively.
For example, here's a single expression in Lisp which filters a linked
list, building a new linked-list with the successful matches:
(remove-if-not
#'(lambda (iprec) (iprec+lostr+histr-match-or-bigger iprec lostr histr))
g*ip-ranges)
Even with templates and ctors/dtors in C++ this would be a bit of work
to write, and in C it'd be a major hassle just to write the code to do
that, and you'd still have to write code elsewhere to keep track of
references or otherwise arrange when to deallocate the original and/or
filtered-copy at just the right time to avoid memory leak, whereas in
Lisp it's trivial.
> Your strengths are (possibly) in your rigor and ability to abstract a
> problem down to its fundamental parts (coming from a maths background),
> possibly your life experiences, possibly skills you developed in what
> little work you have had etc.
So how do I put such skills in my keywords list so my resume won't be
tossed in the trash can before anyone can actually read it to discover
the subtle things that I'm really good at that you cite there?
And you're grossly wrong about where I developed skills! I have 22+
years programming experience, about half paid and half unpaid, and I
develop just as much skill in the unpaid work as in the paid work, it's
just that they are different kinds of skills, which complement each
other nicely to where I have a more well-rounded understanding of
software than somebody who worked for somebody else all their lives
making money but never had any free time to work on more interesting
projects that go outside the commercial straightjacket/box.
But again, if my resume is going to be tossed in the trash unless the
junior staff member sees just the right keywords, then what keywords do
I need to include? Please tell me what to add to the keywords/phrases I
listed in the first part of this two-part reply.
Any of these I just now realized I forgot to include in the earlier
list because they weren't in any of my previous resumes from which I
was gleaning the keywords?
abstract problem
agile programming/development
inline documentation
read-eval-print debugging
rigor
tdd
test-driven development
unit testing
Imagine Robert Maas selling T-shirts near Fisherman's Wharf.
Customer: How much is this one?
Robert: How much what? I can not parse your English.
Customer: How much money does this T-shirt cost?
Robert: As much as you will agree to pay me for it.
Customer: OK, how much do you want for it?
Robert: As much as possible
Customer: Grrrr. What's the least amount of money you would agree to
sell it to me for?
Robert: Only an idiot would reveal this during price negotiations. Do
you think I'm an idiot?
Customer: Yes!
Robert: That's libel! I can sue you now.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug14-007@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Phlip" <·········@yahoo.com>
> I think Robert has successfully pissed off every head-hunter in town.
So my WebSite is really that bad? My attempt to make small-screen
WebPages suitable for displaying on handheld devices is just pissing
off everyone on the net? Fine, you're the straw that broke this camel's
back. I decided within the past hour to dismantle nearly all my
attempts to make small-scrreen WebPages. As a starter, I've written
this WebPage to explain my reasons for this decision:
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
Before I link it from my main uh3t WebPage, I want you and everyone
else in this thread to look at it and tell me how I might re-word it to
avoid pissing off anyone any further. As soon as all of you are happy
with this *one* (1) WebPage, I'll link it from my main uh3t page and
start the dismantling transformation.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> I think Robert has successfully pissed off every head-hunter in town.
>
> So my WebSite is really that bad?
It was just a charitable assessment why you seem to be having trouble. I
don't think I implicated your web site. As others have stated, if you treat
potential hirers the way you treat this newsgroup, then...
> http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
As yet another torrent of pure negativity, and _again_ completely lacking
the <body bgcolor=""> tags to save us from the Windows default of middle
grey (I know I know "I don't have a windows computer because etc. etc."),
this page doesn't seem to discuss why anyone would want to review a resume
in a cell phone. A few more years, and the cellphone and palmtop will finish
merging, and you'l have an 8 by 5 inch paper-white screen serving native
HTML.
Until then, please provide a link to a single resume, neatly formatted in
high-quality HTML, with a little care taken to make it easy to read and
print out.
What you seem to have now is a maze of links to fragments of multiple
resumes. Remember that good written and verbal communication skills _should_
be critical for any job. I'm aware they usually are not, but they help...
BTW I added the More tags to mine. Now someone delirious with curiosity
about one of my gigs can click More and instantly expand an inline list of
its projects and their challenges.
Tell me what y'all think (and _no_, I'm not shopping here, thank you!).
http://flea.sourceforge.net/resume.html
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug14-008@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
> if you treat potential hirers the way you treat this newsgroup,
Vague derogatory innuendo is of no value in tracking down a bug and
fixing it. You need to state the precise bug-behaviour you observe so
that it can be tracked down and diagnosed and possibly even fixed.
For example, I don't bash Yahoo! Mail with vague remarks about how it
sucks. I point out specific features that used to work years ago but
were dismantled in May of last year. Just today when I was on an
InterNet terminal at the public library trying to a very important
search, namely to find all instances of a certain class of spam within
certain folders, I discovered that the checkboxes for selecting which
folders to search is now totally broken. I checked only four of those
boxes, and then initiated my search, but it searched *all* folders,
just the same as I had done check-all-boxes.
And I don't bash Google Groups 2 vaguely either. I point out many
really serious bugs they've introduced compared with GG1 that was in
effect until the beginning of this year and in effect on some foreign
sites until just a couple weeks ago.
So please stop bashing me with derogatory generalities. If there's a
specific WebPage that I wrote which you don't like, cite the exact URL
and state your exact problem with it. (I see you did this just below,
thank you, but your derogatory remark above is not of that quality.)
> > http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
> ... completely lacking the <body bgcolor=""> tags to save us from the
> Windows default ...
Is it impossible on Windows to set your own local default to override
the factory setting? If so, yet another reason to put MicroSoft out of
business so that other companies are no longer destroyed by Bill's
preditory tactics, so that better companies can have a chance to
produce much better software than what MicroSoft produces.
Oh, you want *me* to make up for your cruddy MicroSoft-ware by
providing *your* favorite color as background in every one of *my*
WebPages? Fine. Please make an appointment to come over here with your
laptop MS-Windows computer and local (from Sunnyvale) PPP-access ports,
and we'll connect to the InterNet from here and simultaneously run
TELNET to my shell account (for editing the HTML) and MS-IE/HTTP to my
Web site (for viewing my Web pages), and I'll put what you want in my
style sheet and link it from one of my Web pages, and then later I'll
have the bgcolor stuff in a known working state so that I could easily
link the same stylesheet in any other WebPage of mine that you suggest.
Am I willing to edit my WebPage blind using VT100 mode from my
apartment, then bicycle to the public library and sign up for an hour
of InterNet MS-IE time just to view my work, write down on paper in
what way it didn't work, bicycle back home to try to guess how to fix,
again without being able to see the result as I make the edit, then
another day bicycle back to the library to see if I have it fixed yet,
make more notes how it doesn't work, then bicycle back home to try to
fix it again, then back to the library to view it again, as many times
as necesary to get one command in one WebPage the way you like it? No,
no, and never. The last time I suffered 24-hour turnaround on
submitting batch jobs was in 1968, and I never want to suffer that ever
again, especially for something like this.
So I hope you don't mind if I put your critique on the back burner
until such time as I ever have fast turnaround on submitting changes
and seeing the result of such matters?
> this page doesn't seem to discuss why anyone would want to review a
> resume in a cell phone.
Correct, because that's not the purpose of the WAP pages, hence
irrelevant to my explanation of why I'm dismantling almost all my WAP
work.
When I had a cellphone (2003.Nov) I tried one of the WebSites that was
supposed to be designed for small screens of cell phones, which was
supposed to show a map of any selected city in California. It had about
ten or twenty names of cities in alphabetical order, with a NEXT link
to the next group of ten or twenty, with a NEXT link to the next group
of ten or twenty, etc. I wanted to find San Jose, which would have been
about a hundred screens down the list, and on a cellphone it takes
about a minute to step the cursor one link at a time downward and
thereby scroll down to the bottom of the page to find the NEXT link,
and I lost patience after about ten screens like that. That's when I
decided even the most feeble effort on my part could do better than
that already-existing small-screen WebSite that had been touted.
But the first step was simply to make *any* WAP-compatible WebPage
whatsoever. It took several tries before I got the size of the file
below the limit of 2k bytes or whatever it was, but once that was
achieved (my "Hello World" for WAP), then I knew what the size limit
was, and I started coding a few more useful Web pages for WAP, and
tested them all on my Nokia cellphone. That's when I got the tinyurl to
link to it, because on a cellphone it's very painful typing
alphanumeric characters by multiple presses on the telephone keypad,
but if you have to type only four characters after going to your
bookmarked tinyurl.com or google.com starting point then it's not a
pain at all to select my Web site. Since then I've tried to build a Web
site with that uh3t as my home page, by making very small Web pages,
but in regard to making it work with WAP I've been doing it blind, with
never again even one chance to see my work on a cellphone, to see if it
even worked at all (within the 2k bytes limit) much less whether it
actually looked reasonable on a cellphone screen. Still I tried. But
today I gave up. There's no reward, only rebukes, for my efforts.
> please provide a link to a single resume, neatly formatted in
> high-quality HTML,
Please tell me what you consider "high-quality HTML".
If I can't view it with lynx, then I can't do it unless and until you
bring your laptop over here so that I can see the results as I edit the
HTML source. HTML is not anything that is easy to do blind!!
Ignoring the HTML aspect for the moment, which of my plain-text resumes
do you like best, for content, not presentation style, so that I might
use that as a starting point for conversion to HTML format?
Also, still ignoring HTML formatting, what changes in content would you
like in my best-so-far resume to yield a better-than-ever resume?
> What you seem to have now is a maze of links to fragments of multiple
> resumes.
I have online 11 complete resumes, plus one set of reference notes:
Specialty resumes, sent only regarding particular kinds of jobs:
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-LISP.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Mac.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-CAI.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Util.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.93Games.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.947-ISR.txt
General resumes, sent when none of the specialty resumes is appropriate:
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.91C.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.928.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.98B.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Robert_Elton_Maas.doc
Reference notes for filling out appliations, never sent to a potential employer:
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/RESUME.REM.txt
Please tell me in what way (other than HTML formatting) each of these
resumes is, in your opinion, not complete.
> http://flea.sourceforge.net/resume.html
> See resume.doc
I can't read that online. Please provide a plain-text version.
I support high quality and responsive process.
That's not grammatically correct English. If "process" is plural, it
needs to be spelled "processes", but if it's singular, then you need
the word "a" before the word "high".
I keep you in the driver's seat
Bullshit, unless your profession is driving instructor where your
student is literally in the driver's seat while you sit on the
passenger side with your foot ready to hit the emergency brake if
needed. I would toss this in the trash can at this point if I were
screening resumes. So far you've beat around the bush with metaphor but
you haven't given me the slightest idea what kinds of projects you have
done (landscaping/gardening, driving instructor, DMV person who
administers driving tests, astronaut trainer, etc.).
and give you a system that you can steer accurately
towards business goals.
More stupid metaphor. Maintenance had a laugh when they were emptying
the trash can and your resume happened to blow out of the catcher so
they had to retrieve it and they happened to glance at it.
I have worked in many industries and solved
every kind of technical problem imaginable
Fucking liar. It's unlikely you solved more than one percent of all the
technical problems imaginable.
from inventing languages
OK, now you're finally getting down to specifics, too late for the
resume screener to see it. But what kind of languages?? Experanto? CAD?
Klingon?
to debugging embedded hardware,
Aha, something actually useful! Do you debug it after it's already
embedded, or so you debug it in a test rig before it's ever embedded in
an actual device? (That would be an interview question if you hadn't
already shot yourself in the foot earlier.)
using adaptive planning and
sustainable, disciplined techniques that hold value and enable
teamwork.
That's a little bit too vague for my tastes. Is "adaptive planning" a
buzz phrase that everyone in that particular industry knows, so it
doesn't need to be explained? Or is this more handwaving, beating
around the bush as to what you actually did? For example, do you set up
a dependencies graph for the whole project, and then use dynamic
programming or branch-and-bound to optimize the allocation of resources
toward finishing the project in minimal time with maximal effective use
of your teams?
"disciplined techniques" sounds like something appropriate for a book
review for the book "Positive Parenting for Teens", not anything about
computer technology. This is getting back to sounding like Bob&Ray's
interview about the Komodo Dragon, or the standard bad example of a
term paper that is all fluff but no substances, or the live game
commentary (in a Chess match) that I saw on PBS about 15 or 20 years
ago where the host was asking pre-teens for their analysis of each move
as it occurred, and the pre-teens gave comments similar to"WOW, that's
strong. No, that's very very strong" with not the slightest explanation
why it's strong, leading me to believe the pre-teen hadn't the
slightest idea what was really happening either tactically or
strategically in the game. Compare that to high-quality kibitzing of a
live game such as "I think that was a mistake. Now his queen is
vulnerable to the following sequence .... I think he should have played
.. which would have given his queen an escape route." or "That takes
advantage of his mistake. Now the queen is in danger."
> requirements gathering
That is an important thing to do in commercial projects. An interview
question would be about how that process breaks down. For example, do
you explicitly brainstorm with the customer about use cases, or do you
talk more loosely with the customer, and later try to guess which use
cases he/she really wanted in your product? (Note that use cases
usually refer to application software, showing the transactions between
user/client and software/server. But analagous requirements occur in
hardware design, transactions between the CPU or other controlling
device and the device under question, such as CPU issues a READ
operation on memory-mapped-register CTLSTAT which then returns a 32-bit
word of status data in the following format with the following meaning
in terms of the function of the device, or CPU issues a WRITE operation
to CTLSTAT with the CONFIG bit turned on, then issues consecutive WRITE
operations to the DATA register with a configuration record in the
following format, then issues a WRITE operation to CTLSTAT with the
CONFIG bit off and the DOIT bit on, then waits 3 microsceonds then
ussues a WRITE operation to CTLSTAT with both CONFIG and DOIT bits off.
The effect is to establish a new configuration for the device.)
Programming
( click any item:)
You've mixed together in a single menu, as if they were somehow
brothers in concept, all of: programming languages, text formatting
languages, Web browsers, operating systems, serverside frameworks,
software application suites, data communication protocols, admin tools,
software development frameworks, software development methodologies,
and qualatitive aspects of work. Furthermore you've run them down one
very tall and skinny vertical column, wasting an awful lot of paper if
anyone were to print this as offline familiarization and then handy
reference when online to browse the links more fully.
The only one of those which interested me was:
Test-Driven Development
but clicking on it took me to:
http://flea.sourceforge.net/resume.html#anonymizer
For Anonymizer, I used TDD to build a DHTML web page hosting a CAB
file providing an OCX control and a helper ATL DLL file.
I was hoping for more description of what flavor of TDD you used. These
two lines are completely useless in deciding whether you even know what
TDD means much less whether your use of TDD if any is in any way
compatible with the way we do it here at our company (the garbage
collector saw past the humorous crap at the start and noticed this TDD
mention, circled it in brightly colored highlighter, and put it on my
desk, so I looked at it, went online out of curiosity, and was
disappointed).
Test Engineer
Linkname: Broadband Feedback
URL: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?BroadbandFeedback
OK, so the primary thing you test is animation interfaces for games, by
capturing a sequence of screen shots while the game is being played and
later building them into a animated GIF? I still don't see how that
qualifies as TDD in the sense that I saw it defined/described.
Used Test-Driven Development to write test scripts in Ruby
and Perl, via CygWin and XML, to generate HTML reports.
How exactly did you get from TDD to test scripts and HTML reports??
TDD, OO, HTML, refactoring, tracking, and acceptance tests.
Again you mention TDD like a buzzword but give not the slightest
indication that you know what it means much less telling the reader
which type of TDD you were doing.
The book extends the Test Driven
Development concept into GUIs, demonstrating tests, written at the
same time as the source code, aggressively resisting bugs and
preventing the need to operate a debugger.
That's still too much fluff and not enough saying what people really
did which you described in this book.
SVG Canvas - Combining Ruby, Tk, XML, XPath and GraphViz via
Test-Driven Development to display graphs in a canvas.
Again you use TDD like a buzzword, never saying what you really did.
Family Tree - Extending the previous case study to add interactive
editing.
Embedded GNU-C++ Mophun) Games - A tiny game for color cell phones.
Fractal Life Engine - Grow rotating fractals in OpenGL.
Why is this in the TDD section?? It seems to all be orthoginal to TDD.
SYSTRAN Software
Was, arbeiteten Sie auf dem Entwickeln der BabelFish Technologie?
Eingef|hrte Software-Produktserien, Tageszeitung Bauten und die
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durch ActiveX mit kundenspezifischem MS B|ro und Internet Explorer
toolbars. F|hren Sie die Logitech Toolbar Bem|hung. Kundenspezifische
HTTP Transportschichten. Vorger|cktes XML und XSLT und vorger|ckte
Internationalisierung Techniken und Bauindexe in Perl, das auf Linux
und MS Windows arbeitet. Automatisch konfigurierbare, mehrsprachige
MSI Installateure. [ TASTE
Pas de comment.
Back to the main "resume": After two full screens of one word per line:
Mission
Objected-oriented design, advanced user interfaces, art,
and "Agile" development.
OOD is a methodology, not a goal, so it doesn't belong here in your
mission. The rest here is appropriate. By the way, virtually all my
software from as far back as I can remember was "Agile" development.
Should I mention that in my resume, or is that just fluff?
(Yeah, I have you in a double bind here.)
Experience
This seems to be the same information that I got when I followed the
TDD link.
From: Christopher C. Stacy
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <uk6inviy5.fsf@news.dtpq.com>
I don't think people are doing WAP anymore; I'm told that
all the newer handheld devices just use regular HTML
(although you have to design it for the small screen).
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <3mb0qbF1656imU1@individual.net>
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Please tell me what you consider "high-quality HTML".
> If I can't view it with lynx, then I can't do it unless and until you
> bring your laptop over here so that I can see the results as I edit the
> HTML source. HTML is not anything that is easy to do blind!!
You keep turning in circles. You run Redhat, as you mentioned, so your
computer *can* do PPP. Your computer can run a graphical browser. Fix
the f***ing problem instead of complaining. (or go to another newsgroup
for that)
Five years ago I ran a laptop with 32MB memory and it ran Mozilla on
Linux just fine (slow, but it looked good), so I know it works.
>> http://flea.sourceforge.net/resume.html
>> See resume.doc
>
> I can't read that online. Please provide a plain-text version.
That's weird. It looks like ok HTML. Read the source if you have to.
> I support high quality and responsive process.
>
> That's not grammatically correct English. If "process" is plural, it
> needs to be spelled "processes", but if it's singular, then you need
> the word "a" before the word "high".
Great! Nitpick about others' SPELLING, but ignore the crap in your own
yard. Making me laugh right now :D
> I keep you in the driver's seat
>
> Bullshit, unless your profession is driving instructor where your
> student is literally in the driver's seat while you sit on the
> passenger side with your foot ready to hit the emergency brake if
> needed. I would toss this in the trash can at this point if I were
> screening resumes. So far you've beat around the bush with metaphor but
> you haven't given me the slightest idea what kinds of projects you have
> done (landscaping/gardening, driving instructor, DMV person who
> administers driving tests, astronaut trainer, etc.).
Raaaant.
> and give you a system that you can steer accurately
> towards business goals.
>
> More stupid metaphor. Maintenance had a laugh when they were emptying
> the trash can and your resume happened to blow out of the catcher so
> they had to retrieve it and they happened to glance at it.
Who gives a ...?
> I have worked in many industries and solved
> every kind of technical problem imaginable
>
> Fucking liar. It's unlikely you solved more than one percent of all the
> technical problems imaginable.
Well, I don't think he's stupid, his resume looks
well-formatted/structured, even if it uses tables, and he doesn't keep
bitching about the whole, bad, world all the time.
> Programming
> ( click any item:)
>
> You've mixed together in a single menu, as if they were somehow
> brothers in concept, all of: programming languages, text formatting
> languages, Web browsers, operating systems, serverside frameworks,
> software application suites, data communication protocols, admin tools,
> software development frameworks, software development methodologies,
> and qualatitive aspects of work. Furthermore you've run them down one
> very tall and skinny vertical column, wasting an awful lot of paper if
> anyone were to print this as offline familiarization and then handy
> reference when online to browse the links more fully.
Maybe he formatted it badly (but I like it). Or your browser does. You
know you can just read the raw HTML instead? If you want, there's tools
that strip the HTML tags as well.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Ulrich, before we start, please oggle this legendary list:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/target.htm
The target provides elaborate arguments that everyone knows to be incredibly
wrong. The target generates endless and complex double-speak to lead us
around why their position is right, when their position is commonly
dismissed as trivially wrong for the simplest reasons. An example is posting
to news:comp.object endless screeds why OO programming is wrong.
'When Warriors unleash their collective fury upon him his usual reaction is
"Hey, what did I do?" or "Why do you all hate me?"'
This activity must be identified for what it is, before we have fun with it.
So here we go...
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Five years ago I ran a laptop with 32MB memory and it ran Mozilla on Linux
> just fine (slow, but it looked good), so I know it works.
Me too. It worked great in both Mozilla and Konqueror. And the DHTML in my
resume is still compliant.
>>> http://flea.sourceforge.net/resume.html
>>> See resume.doc
>>
>> I can't read that online. Please provide a plain-text version.
Irrelevant. Those who can read DOC get DOC. Those who can see this resume
don't need text. And hirers should request a format before I submit, so this
isn't really a showstopper.
> That's weird. It looks like ok HTML. Read the source if you have to.
He means the outlink to resume.doc.
>> I support high quality and responsive process.
>>
>> That's not grammatically correct English. If "process" is plural, it
>> needs to be spelled "processes", but if it's singular, then you need
>> the word "a" before the word "high".
>
> Great! Nitpick about others' SPELLING, but ignore the crap in your own
> yard. Making me laugh right now :D
Grammar. In this case, it's a literary tension. From my point of view, there
is One Process, flowing through all my projects. (_Not_ One True Process for
everyone, either...)
>> I keep you in the driver's seat
>>
>> Bullshit, unless your profession is driving instructor where your
>> student is literally in the driver's seat while you sit on the
>> passenger side with your foot ready to hit the emergency brake if
>> needed. I would toss this in the trash can at this point if I were
>> screening resumes. So far you've beat around the bush with metaphor but
>> you haven't given me the slightest idea what kinds of projects you have
>> done (landscaping/gardening, driving instructor, DMV person who
>> administers driving tests, astronaut trainer, etc.).
>
> Raaaant.
It's a wink to Kent Beck's driving metaphor in XPX. When you give me feature
requests, I return them rapidly, giving you visibility into the project's
current state. That allows you to deliver a right-sized stream of requests
that steer the project towards a goal. You steer, I work the engine.
>> and give you a system that you can steer accurately
>> towards business goals.
>>
>> More stupid metaphor. Maintenance had a laugh when they were emptying
>> the trash can and your resume happened to blow out of the catcher so
>> they had to retrieve it and they happened to glance at it.
>
> Who gives a ...?
Well, when someone devolves to empty flaming it generally shows they have no
point.
>> I have worked in many industries and solved
>> every kind of technical problem imaginable
>>
>> Fucking liar. It's unlikely you solved more than one percent of all the
>> technical problems imaginable.
>
> Well, I don't think he's stupid, his resume looks
> well-formatted/structured, even if it uses tables, and he doesn't keep
> bitching about the whole, bad, world all the time.
I rescued our server from a fire in the server room once. Everyone else just
ran away. I didn't want to admit I was qualified due to prior experience in
... pyromania ;-)
>> Programming
>> ( click any item:)
>>
>> You've mixed together in a single menu, as if they were somehow
>> brothers in concept, all of: programming languages, text formatting
>> languages, Web browsers, operating systems, serverside frameworks,
>> software application suites, data communication protocols, admin tools,
>> software development frameworks, software development methodologies,
>> and qualatitive aspects of work. Furthermore you've run them down one
>> very tall and skinny vertical column, wasting an awful lot of paper if
>> anyone were to print this as offline familiarization and then handy
>> reference when online to browse the links more fully.
>
> Maybe he formatted it badly (but I like it). Or your browser does. You
> know you can just read the raw HTML instead? If you want, there's tools
> that strip the HTML tags as well.
I formatted it with a table, hence it is correct HTML, and easy on the eyes.
If someone needs a given acronym, they find it in alpha order. I don't make
them play Easter Eggs with it. Ohh, if you Really Loved Me, you would Find
my Acronym Needle in this Haystack of Mixed Metaphors! Oh, I'm going to list
irrelevancies at the top, so you have to Prove you really Deserve to Hire
me!!
> I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
> all day long and I assume they deserve it.
> Dogbert
>Sigh< - my role model!
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-012@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> You run Redhat, as you mentioned, so your computer *can* do PPP.
Not without any working modem. Please see:
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/mySituation.html
> Your computer can run a graphical browser.
If you mean my Linux laptop, yes, but only with local files I make
myself or what comes with the system, without any modem to have access
to anything new online.
> Five years ago I ran a laptop with 32MB memory and it ran Mozilla on
> Linux just fine (slow, but it looked good), so I know it works.
And my Linux laptop runs very old version of Netscape just fine too.
(Except when J2EE is activated, it runs v e r y s l o w l y.)
> >> http://flea.sourceforge.net/resume.html
> >> See resume.doc
> > I can't read that online. Please provide a plain-text version.
> That's weird. It looks like ok HTML.
The resume.html is just fine HTML, but the resume.doc is MicroSoft Word
which I have no software capable of viewing in any meaningful way. The
Web access at the public library might be able to read it, or might
not. It doesn't have MicroSoft Word available, but might have plug-in
to just view Word documents without being able to edit them, I don't
know. My time at the library (one hour per day maximum) is very limited
and the last two times I wasn't able to finish the really important
stuff I wanted to do so there was absolutely no time to browse
newsgroups during my hour. Even if I could view the resume at the
library, I wouldn't be able to take the text home to respond to in a
newsgroup, and I wouldn't be able to post to a newsgroup from the
library, and I wouldn't be able to even format a newsgroup reply text
to download to diskette and reply from home because there's no text
editor available at the library.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Not without any working modem.
If you insist to lose a lot of money on modem telecommunications, you
can get modems for free. Just ask anybody, or search a dump. Myself
I've got two or three useless modems here. Only it would cost twice
or thrice its price to send one to you from Europe.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we. -- Georges W. Bush
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <3mo9svF17o98eU1@individual.net>
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>> You run Redhat, as you mentioned, so your computer *can* do PPP.
>
> Not without any working modem. Please see:
> http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/mySituation.html
How does your shell access work? Is it a real VT terminal, or emulation
on another machine? Is it over phone line, so you have to pay per time?
In that case you could indeed grab a modem somewhere and use the
"shell account" on your Redhat machine. Most ISPs allow uploading PHP,
CGI stuff, too, even for cheap mini-accounts, so you wouldn't need full
shell access there.
>> Your computer can run a graphical browser.
>
> If you mean my Linux laptop, yes, but only with local files I make
> myself or what comes with the system, without any modem to have access
> to anything new online.
True...
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87r7cvqyir.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Am I willing to edit my WebPage blind using VT100 mode from my
> apartment,
Are you running X on your BSD box ?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-013@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> Are you running X on your BSD box ?
What are you talking about??
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/mySituation.html
Please read that, and then reconsider your question.
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <877jehmghx.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > Are you running X on your BSD box ?
>
> What are you talking about??
I was under the impression that you had FreeBSD on one of your PCs.
I realise now that you were talking about your shell account on
your ISP.
BTW, X is the X Window System:
http://www.x.org/
and it sometimes looks like
http://xwinman.org/screenshots/enl-anakin.jpg
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <871x4pmg42.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/mySituation.html
> Please read that, and then reconsider your question.
You say that you are running running System 7.5.5 on your Mac Performa.
There should be no problem using PPP on your system.
TCP/IP and PPP work fine even with system 7.01
If you are unfamiliar with Macs and TCP/IP ask at a local user group.
Configuring PPP is something that even a child can do.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Slow PPP/IE with 8 MB (was: How much should I charge for fixed-pri...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug22-009@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> You say that you are running running System 7.5.5 on your Mac Performa.
> There should be no problem using PPP on your system.
With only 8 megabytes of RAM, and not just a simple test/echo loop but
actual useful software: InterNet Explorer / Mail And News
When I tried that in 1998, it took 20 minutes just to download the home
page of AT&T WorldNet, and 5 minutes each time I clicked on the scroll
bar to see a different portion of that home page. Do you know how to
get better response time with only 8 megabytes of RAM?
> Configuring PPP is something that even a child can do.
Only if that child has the proper set of instructions.
Currently when I try to start IE from CD-ROM, it freezes the whole
machine, requiring cold restart. Do you know where to find instructions
for diagnosing what is causing that problem and fixing it?
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Slow PPP/IE with 8 MB (was: How much should I charge for fixed-pri...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87r7cknsb9.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > You say that you are running running System 7.5.5 on your Mac Performa.
> > There should be no problem using PPP on your system.
>
> bar to see a different portion of that home page. Do you know how to
> get better response time with only 8 megabytes of RAM?
With system 7.5.5 8 megs should be fine for the trivial things you are trying.
I have run graphical web browsers on systems with 4 megs.
> > Configuring PPP is something that even a child can do.
> Only if that child has the proper set of instructions.
But you are the "experienced programmer with 20 years of experience"
And it turns out that your inability to access the internet is because you
dont know how to install software on your system !
LOL!!!
> Currently when I try to start IE from CD-ROM, it freezes the whole
> machine, requiring cold restart.
So dont use IE
There are many other browsers.
Only idiots who are completely oblivious to security issues use IE.
I think that you should abandon any idea of working in a computer related field.
Your computer skills are abyssmal.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
······@bigpond.net.au wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
>>>You say that you are running running System 7.5.5 on your Mac Performa.
>>>There should be no problem using PPP on your system.
>>
>>bar to see a different portion of that home page. Do you know how to
>>get better response time with only 8 megabytes of RAM?
>
>
> With system 7.5.5 8 megs should be fine for the trivial things you are trying.
> I have run graphical web browsers on systems with 4 megs.
>
>
>
>>>Configuring PPP is something that even a child can do.
>>
>>Only if that child has the proper set of instructions.
>
>
> But you are the "experienced programmer with 20 years of experience"
> And it turns out that your inability to access the internet is because you
> dont know how to install software on your system !
> LOL!!!
>
>
>>Currently when I try to start IE from CD-ROM, it freezes the whole
>>machine, requiring cold restart.
>
>
> So dont use IE
> There are many other browsers.
> Only idiots who are completely oblivious to security issues use IE.
>
> I think that you should abandon any idea of working in a computer related field.
> Your computer skills are abyssmal.
>
That is a bit harsh, but I think there is a real message here. You see
identifying useful applications, downloading them, and getting them
running as absolutely essential computer skills. It doesn't matter
whether someone can program well, if they can't make effective use of
the enormous body of existing software. That is, I believe, the reality
today. It wasn't, when I started programming. Few programs existed and
there was relatively little chance of finding one that did just what you
wanted, and ran on the computer you had.
If Robert is going to get a computing job, he needs to develop the
skills that are needed now. My suggestion, given his limited resources,
is to become a CS grad student.
Student loans have lower interest rates than credit cards, he would have
access to college computing labs, and college placement services, and
would benefit from immersion in a mass of youngsters with 10+ years of
experience selecting and downloading software. Between being able to TA
for the more mathematical courses, and writing scientific programs for
professors as a research assistant, he could probably cover his fees
plus some living money. Robert might also be able to make some money on
the side doing mathematics tutoring.
Of course, I may be biased, because I'm enjoying being a student again,
as well as learning a lot.
Patricia
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
>> You say that you are running running System 7.5.5 on your Mac Performa.
>> There should be no problem using PPP on your system.
>
> With only 8 megabytes of RAM, and not just a simple test/echo loop but
> actual useful software: InterNet Explorer / Mail And News
> When I tried that in 1998, it took 20 minutes just to download the home
> page of AT&T WorldNet, and 5 minutes each time I clicked on the scroll
> bar to see a different portion of that home page. Do you know how to
> get better response time with only 8 megabytes of RAM?
In 1998 some people were using P2s running at 300 MHz with 32MB RAM or
more. Those machines are now considered garbage by most. *Nobody* buys
them, because you can get better (used) machines that are even more
quiet, several times as fast, and that still cost less than $200.
Go find a decent, old machine that works and sell you Mac to the museum.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> In 1998 some people were using P2s running at 300 MHz with 32MB RAM or
> more. Those machines are now considered garbage by most. *Nobody* buys
> them, because you can get better (used) machines that are even more
> quiet, several times as fast, and that still cost less than $200.
>
> Go find a decent, old machine that works and sell you Mac to the museum.
>
Or go even crazier and get a
http://vfxweb.com/index.php?productid=8655
for $29US or if that is too steep, get a
http://vfxweb.com/index.php?productid=7689
for $9US.
At my children's school a business gave 150 PIII's.
(Some of them end up going to the dump
since there are too many to use). They have a small
mountain of hard drives, cards and stacks of monitors
in one room.
Wade
Wade Humeniuk wrote:
> Or go even crazier and get a
>
> http://vfxweb.com/index.php?productid=8655
>
> for $29US or if that is too steep, get a
>
> http://vfxweb.com/index.php?productid=7689
>
> for $9US.
Like all webstores, it's kindof ugly and probably won't display nicely
in lynx ;)
Also, they want 50 bucks shipping in the US. Ouch!
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
>
> Like all webstores, it's kindof ugly and probably won't display nicely
> in lynx ;)
>
> Also, they want 50 bucks shipping in the US. Ouch!
>
It was just an example. I am sure most everyone living in an urban
area has a store similar to this. Panhandle on the way to the store,
purchase your "new" PC, and hike back.
Wade
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> if you treat potential hirers the way you treat this newsgroup,
>
> Vague derogatory innuendo is of no value in tracking down a bug and
> fixing it. You need to state the precise bug-behaviour you observe so
> that it can be tracked down and diagnosed and possibly even fixed.
...
>> > http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
>> ... completely lacking the <body bgcolor=""> tags to save us from the
>> Windows default ...
>
> Is it impossible on Windows to set your own local default to override
> the factory setting? If so, yet another reason to put MicroSoft out of
> business so that other companies are no longer destroyed by Bill's
> preditory tactics, so that better companies can have a chance to
> produce much better software than what MicroSoft produces.
>
> Oh, you want *me* to make up for your cruddy MicroSoft-ware by
> providing *your* favorite color as background in every one of *my*
> WebPages? Fine. Please make an appointment to come over here with your
> laptop MS-Windows computer and local (from Sunnyvale) PPP-access ports...
I stand corrected.
> So please stop bashing me with derogatory generalities. If there's a
> specific WebPage that I wrote which you don't like, cite the exact URL
> and state your exact problem with it. (I see you did this just below,
> thank you, but your derogatory remark above is not of that quality.)
All of them. Other web pages don't make me change my own browser settings.
Why should yours?
This exchange leads me to imagine conversations like this:
Headhunter: Thank you for the resume, but can we change the colors
before it goes out? Everyone has different default settings, so you
should configure your resume to look the same across all of them.
You: [Long screed against Microsoft, who did not invent web pages or
their default color system...]
Headhunter: I'm going to add you to my "special" list, okay?
> Specialty resumes, sent only regarding particular kinds of jobs:
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-LISP.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Mac.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-CAI.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Util.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.93Games.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.947-ISR.txt
> General resumes, sent when none of the specialty resumes is appropriate:
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.91C.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.928.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.98B.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Robert_Elton_Maas.doc
> Reference notes for filling out appliations, never sent to a potential
> employer:
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/RESUME.REM.txt
Which one is the best? And is there a _clear_ link from your tinyurl to the
_best_ one?
I picked Resume.93Games.txt, because games have different entry requirements
than normal gigs. The top doesn't contain an objective or an acronym list.
Then it leaps into a bunch of computer science stuff. Real game shops need
to read, "I worked on a videogame where, as you dismember your opponent, you
get to see the blood spurt out of their head and the stumps of their limbs
in slow motion, forming permanent, alpha-blended splotches all over the
ground and nearby props."
> Please tell me in what way (other than HTML formatting) each of these
> resumes is, in your opinion, not complete.
_"Each"_? You have a gift for setting each of your conversations up for
failure.
> Mission
> Objected-oriented design, advanced user interfaces, art,
> and "Agile" development.
>
> OOD is a methodology, not a goal, so it doesn't belong here in your
> mission.
That's specious. I put in the acronym list all my acronyms. An HR guy has
been told to look for NBQ, and they find it in my list, in the Ns. The HR
guy is not required to know if NBQ is a database, or a chip, or whatever.
Similarily, my "mission" is to improve OO designs. If it's here, it's a
goal. This is an example of a literary art, to provide tension and drama.
(The good kinds.)
> The rest here is appropriate. By the way, virtually all my
> software from as far back as I can remember was "Agile" development.
> Should I mention that in my resume, or is that just fluff?
> (Yeah, I have you in a double bind here.)
Ah, so you wrote lots of unit tests, and passed them after every few edits,
way back when?
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87iry652ct.fsf@kafka.homenet>
"Phlip" <········@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> Headhunter: I'm going to add you to my "special" list, okay?
My favourite parts of his resume are:
"Games included are Sprouts, pile Nim, urinary Nim, NimLine, domino Nim."
I guess that faecal Nim is the R rated version.
And it cant be a typo.
The allusion to micturition has been pointed out to him earlier.
and
"TestWords.Lisp - Educational game for vocabulary.
My wife, ... says it's great for improving English
vocabulary."
I wonder why he hasnt included comments from his
children and his pets.
rambam wrote:
> The allusion to micturition has been pointed out to him earlier.
My Cod, until this moment I thought Douglas Adams made up "micturition",
among his other made-up words, to scansify Vogon poetry.
Thanks! I think...
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Phlip writes:
>> The allusion to micturition has been pointed out to him earlier.
>
> My Cod, until this moment I thought Douglas Adams made up "micturition",
> among his other made-up words, to scansify Vogon poetry.
Think the folks at Google will wonder about all the hits for:
define micturition
:-)
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
Chris Sonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Phlip writes:
| >> The allusion to micturition has been pointed out to him earlier.
| > My Cod, until this moment I thought Douglas Adams made up "micturition",
| > among his other made-up words, to scansify Vogon poetry.
|
| Think the folks at Google will wonder about all the hits for:
| define micturition
+---------------
Especially since it's spelled "micturation". ;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87k6iixtho.fsf@kafka.homenet>
····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> | Think the folks at Google will wonder about all the hits for:
> | define micturition
> Especially since it's spelled "micturation". ;-}
Google: "Did you mean: micturition "
:-)
<······@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
+---------------
| ····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
| > | Think the folks at Google will wonder about all the hits for:
| > | define micturition
|
| > Especially since it's spelled "micturation". ;-}
|
| Google: "Did you mean: micturition " :-)
+---------------
By gosh, you're [and they're] right! I was thinking of the
verb form, "to micturate". Note that Merriam-Webster Online
gives both the inflected form "micturating" *and* the noun
"micturition".
Ah... English and its irregular declensions... ;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87fyt6xs2i.fsf@kafka.homenet>
····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> Ah... English and its irregular declensions... ;-}
"English as she is spoke: Familiar Phrases"
http://crossroads.net/honyaku/easis/familiar_phrases.html
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <r7cqaun3.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> <······@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> +---------------
> | ····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> | > | Think the folks at Google will wonder about all the hits for:
> | > | define micturition
> |
> | > Especially since it's spelled "micturation". ;-}
> |
> | Google: "Did you mean: micturition " :-)
> +---------------
>
> By gosh, you're [and they're] right! I was thinking of the
> verb form, "to micturate". Note that Merriam-Webster Online
> gives both the inflected form "micturating" *and* the noun
> "micturition".
Great. Another thread degenerates into a micturating contest....
http://www.verba.org/owa-verb/verba_dba.verba_en.select_page?query_verba=micturate
Robert, Robert, Robert,
This time you have just made my day - rolling around here laughing so
much I'm in danger of choking. It is now confirmed - my suspicions
werer correct, you are definitely a very sad person who has absolutely
no ability to take any responsibility for your own situation.
In this lovely last rant of yours, you attack someone for suggesting
that you do some *really* basic html to set foreground and background
colour to give your pages a better DEFAULT look and you immediately
attack them as if its their fault you have no money. Moaning that
your too poor to have easy access to a gui browser which would allow
you to see what it would look like and lots of other excuses. I wold
have thought that even you would be able to imagine what it would look
like as long as you did something pretty normal, like, maybe just
white background with black text - I'm sure you would have seen that
somewhere before. It is also wonderful how you blame the user for not
setting decent defaults in their browser to cover up for your
inability to set reasonable colours in your pages - the good old
attack being the best defence strategy - your probably best off
sticking to the tried and true tactics.
Then your post gets even better!!!!
Robert Mass, the guy who has not been able to even get an interview
for a programming job in 15 years because a resume critic. This part
of your post is priceless and gets even funnier when you compare the
resumes with the one referenced by your victim - this truely was a
blast. While I could certainly see ways phlip could improve his
resume, yours are not even close to been what I could call a
resume. You then proceed to slice and dice for paragraphs, effectively
showing why you have no clue and rather than take on some advice and
actively improve your situation, you will just hit out attacking
anyone for criticising what you do - I can see why you would be such a
great asset in any team!
Oh, and just in case there is a chance you can accept criticism, I
would recommend you take a copy of your resume to one of those
recruting agencies and ask them for some suggestions on how you could
improve it. From your earlier posts and definitely confirmed by this
most recent one, you have absolutely no clue on how to put together a
resume. If your lucky enough to get a compassionate staff person who
takes you seriously and doesn't fall into fits of laughter while
reading what you give them, you may actually learn something. I'm sure
you will not believe this recruitment professional and will disagree
with any advice he/she may give, but I would just suggest you sit and
listen and maybe just try out doing it their way. After all, they are
exactly the types of people who will be looking at your resume when
you apply for jobs - or of course you can just fight against it as
they are all so wrong and be the rebel you dream of. I'm really sure
that one day, somewhere, somehow you will find that one other
enlightened individual who will get where your coming from and not
only give you a job, but make you a senior principal analyst
programmer team leader boss!
Tim (still laughing loudly and heading to the kitchen for a glass of
water)
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug15-012@Yahoo.Com>
It's been more than 24 hours since I asked for suggestions about the
wording in this explanation why I'm discontinuing my work on WAP and
dismantling most of what I previously did. So-far I haven't seen any
followup that gives any specific comments about anything I may have
worded wrong that needs improvement. If I don't get any feedback soon,
I don't know what I'll do.
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
Please, everybody, hurry up and tell me any improvements in wording
that you can suggest.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> It's been more than 24 hours since I asked for suggestions about the
> wording in this explanation why I'm discontinuing my work on WAP and
> dismantling most of what I previously did.
The first few sentences should "hook" the readers, and make them "care"
about the story.
In your case, you start with negative complaints about yourself, like this
post. "In the first place" and "briefly" are complaintful, and "stopped work
soon after beginning" & "cruddy" are negative and self-abasing.
Then, readers have trouble getting started without at least expository
verbiage about what WAP is. (Yes, I _know_ what WAP is. The expository
verbiage is still necessary, to entrain the readers and help you lead them.)
For example, "WAP is a growing and frequently meaningful miniaturization of
HTML, targeting cell phones, and enabling a whole new realm of pop-up ads".
Start with a joke that burns the industry, not yourself.
Next, I used to think that Free Software emulators for WAP were available.
Maybe they are not, so you seem to complain that without a cell phone with
good "service" (signal? tech support?) you can't continue to experiment with
WAP.
And the reason you didn't whip out your computer science credentials and
_write_ a WAP emulator are..?
I can't read farther, but at least I read enough to offer [more!]
constructive criticism.
> http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
> Please, everybody, hurry up and tell me any improvements in wording
> that you can suggest.
Nope. No improvements to suggest in the wording. Each of your words
successfully conveys how you feel about yourself and your situation.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug17-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
> The first few sentences should "hook" the readers, and make them
> "care" about the story.
I have no skill in this area, and there's no available source of free
help in this area. Accordingly I'll have to skip over this suggestion.
Linkname: Why WAP inactive?
URL: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
> In your case, you start with negative complaints about yourself, like
> this post. "In the first place" and "briefly" are complaintful.
OK, I've changed that now. See if it looks better.
> and "stopped work soon after beginning" & "cruddy" are negative and
> self-abasing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=self-abasing&db=*
Lowering or humbling one's self.
Saying that I stopped work on that project because I lacked the
resources necessary to continue, is factual, not what you say.
Saying that AT&T services is cruddy is my person opinion based on
suffering beeping from incoming text-message spam about once every two
or three minutes and spending several hours per day for several days on
customer support trying to get them to shut down the incessant beeping,
all to no avail. I hope somebody sues AT&T for all the spam they've
sent out, at $1000 per spam, hundreds of billions of dollars per day
they owe, and puts AT&T out of business, because I hate that fucking
company for multiple reasons.
Do you honstly consider my hatred of AT&T to be "humble"? Howso?
> Then, readers have trouble getting started without at least
> expository verbiage about what WAP is.
I turned my first mention of WAP into a link to suitable WAP-p.r.
> I used to think that Free Software emulators for WAP were available.
I don't have any net access such that it'd be possible to correctly
emulate a small cellphone screen. Piping small-screen Web pages through
a VT100 (fixed-pitch single-font test) would not give a proper idea
what a WebPage would look like rendered properly on a cellphone screen,
and IMO would not be worth even trying.
> you seem to complain that without a cell phone with good "service"
> (signal? tech support?) you can't continue to experiment with WAP.
Without any cellphone whatsoever, nor any other way to render WAP
output to look as it would on a cellphone, indeed I can't do any
meaningful experiments in that medium.
> And the reason you didn't whip out your computer science credentials
> and _write_ a WAP emulator are..?
Because I don't have access to any system on which it would be possible
to render Web output in any way similar to how it'd appear on a cellphone.
"person opinion" should read "personal opinion"
From: Bob Day
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <IdRMe.3358$yb.2296@trndny01>
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote in message ······················@Yahoo.Com...
>> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
>> The first few sentences should "hook" the readers, and make them
>> "care" about the story.
>
> I have no skill in this area, and there's no available source of free
> help in this area. Accordingly I'll have to skip over this suggestion.
>
> Linkname: Why WAP inactive?
> URL: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
>
>> In your case, you start with negative complaints about yourself, like
>> this post. "In the first place" and "briefly" are complaintful.
>
> OK, I've changed that now. See if it looks better.
>
>> and "stopped work soon after beginning" & "cruddy" are negative and
>> self-abasing.
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=self-abasing&db=*
> Lowering or humbling one's self.
>
> Saying that I stopped work on that project because I lacked the
> resources necessary to continue, is factual, not what you say.
>
> Saying that AT&T services is cruddy is my person opinion based on
> suffering beeping from incoming text-message spam about once every two
> or three minutes and spending several hours per day for several days on
> customer support trying to get them to shut down the incessant beeping,
> all to no avail. I hope somebody sues AT&T for all the spam they've
> sent out, at $1000 per spam, hundreds of billions of dollars per day
> they owe, and puts AT&T out of business, because I hate that fucking
> company for multiple reasons.
>
> Do you honstly consider my hatred of AT&T to be "humble"? Howso?
>
>> Then, readers have trouble getting started without at least
>> expository verbiage about what WAP is.
>
> I turned my first mention of WAP into a link to suitable WAP-p.r.
>
>> I used to think that Free Software emulators for WAP were available.
>
> I don't have any net access such that it'd be possible to correctly
> emulate a small cellphone screen. Piping small-screen Web pages through
> a VT100 (fixed-pitch single-font test) would not give a proper idea
> what a WebPage would look like rendered properly on a cellphone screen,
> and IMO would not be worth even trying.
>
>> you seem to complain that without a cell phone with good "service"
>> (signal? tech support?) you can't continue to experiment with WAP.
>
> Without any cellphone whatsoever, nor any other way to render WAP
> output to look as it would on a cellphone, indeed I can't do any
> meaningful experiments in that medium.
>
>> And the reason you didn't whip out your computer science credentials
>> and _write_ a WAP emulator are..?
>
> Because I don't have access to any system on which it would be possible
> to render Web output in any way similar to how it'd appear on a cellphone.
> "person opinion" should read "personal opinion"
I could give you some suggestions, but you'd probably
just figure out reasons you "can't" do them. So I won't
waste my time. Go find something you can do.
-- Bob Day
http://bobday.vze.com
> "Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote in
> message ······················@Yahoo.Com...
>> I have no skill in this area, and there's no available source of free
>> help in this area. Accordingly I'll have to skip over this suggestion.
The weak are the most treacherous of us all. They come to the strong and
drain them. They are bottomless. They are insatiable. They are always
parched and always bitter. They are everyone's concern and like vampires
they suck out life's blood. (Bette Davis)
die reine Wahrheit wrote:
> The weak are the most treacherous of us all. They come to the strong and
> drain them. They are bottomless. They are insatiable. They are always
> parched and always bitter. They are everyone's concern and like vampires
> they suck out life's blood. (Bette Davis)
That's an excellent quote.
(Not taking a position on its applicability here.)
-- chris
Chris Uppal wrote:
> die reine Wahrheit wrote:
>
>> The weak are the most treacherous of us all. They come to the strong and
>> drain them. They are bottomless. They are insatiable. They are always
>> parched and always bitter. They are everyone's concern and like vampires
>> they suck out life's blood. (Bette Davis)
>
> That's an excellent quote.
The good is the enemy of the best. (via Voltaire)
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: HalfTruth=Lie (was: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer co...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug26-008@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
> The good is the enemy of the best.
A half-truth is a lie.
A bicycle with only one wheel isn't useful.
Yin without yang isn't useful.
A glass half full but not half empty, or vice versa, is not the whole
picture.
For nearly every cliche there's an opposite which is equally valid in
different circumances.
Please choose which of the following activities you would most and
least like to participate in:
(1) Have bamboo shoots driven up under your fingernails.
(2) Undergo Chinese water torture.
(3) Be trapped in a large tank with one (1) pihrana.
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:57:12 -0700, Robert Maas, .. wrote:
> A half-truth is a lie.
You have written enough to have covered many full-truths.
Now give it a rest, *please*.
[ F-Ups set as usual. ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"You know you done me wrong baby, and you'll be sorry someday."
B.B.King 'The Thrill Is Gone'
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> I used to think that Free Software emulators for WAP were available.
>
> I don't have any net access such that it'd be possible to correctly
> emulate a small cellphone screen. Piping small-screen Web pages through
> a VT100 (fixed-pitch single-font test) would not give a proper idea
> what a WebPage would look like rendered properly on a cellphone screen,
> and IMO would not be worth even trying.
Once again, this doesn't bode well for your employability, if you
don't understand what was suggested here.
The suggested setup is to put your web pages on your computer, to run
a web server on your computer and to run a web browser on the emulator
running on your computer, so you can spend all the time you need to
test the communication chain without having to pay for actual
communications. Once you're satisfied with your modified web pages,
you connect to your Internet web server and transfer your new web page
to it.
>> And the reason you didn't whip out your computer science credentials
>> and _write_ a WAP emulator are..?
>
> Because I don't have access to any system on which it would be possible
> to render Web output in any way similar to how it'd appear on a cellphone.
You're being silly! To write your own WAP emulator you only need
programmig knowledge (what you claim to have with your computer
science credentials), and information about the WAP protocols. You
don't need access to an existing WAP system.
Alternatively, http://www.google.com/search?q=wap+emulator returns 436,000 hits,
and http://www.google.com/search?q=free+wap+emulator returns 278,000 hits.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
The mighty hunter
Returns with gifts of plump birds,
Your foot just squashed one.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug20-007@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com>
Please read this:
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/mySituation.html
and then respond below:
> The suggested setup is to put your web pages on your computer
Which computer are you referring to, the laptop with no working modem,
or the Macintosh with no working Web browser and not enough disk space
to install anything new.
> To write your own WAP emulator you only need programmig knowledge
> ... and information about the WAP protocols.
So you're suggesting that I write both a WAP client and WAP server on
my Laptop, as well as a full HTML-to-renderedView function (basically
re-invent the innerds of NetScape/IE/Mozilla wheel)? Even if I went to
all that work, what good would it do me, with no way to move files back
and forth between InterNet-accessible Web space and my laptop?
> Alternatively, http://www.google.com/search?q=wap+emulator returns 436,000 hits,
> and http://www.google.com/search?q=free+wap+emulator returns 278,000 hits.
And even if that ran on FreeBSD unix over a VT100 dialup, how would
that show me what the WebPage would actually look like on a cellphone?
If I just want to see what it looks like over VT100 dialup, I can use Lynx.
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <87ek8pj610.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Which computer are you referring to, the laptop with no working modem,
> or the Macintosh with no working Web browser and not enough disk space
> to install anything new.
Even on a low end Mac like the Performa, you should be able
to run:
Icab ( version 2.9.8 is available free on their web site and
will run on a 68k Mac running System 7.1 or better )
Netscape , cyberdog or Macweb will also run on your box.
From: Michael Sullivan
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <1h1l7hc.1bg5tl81ireczvN%mes@panix.com>
<······@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
> > Which computer are you referring to, the laptop with no working modem,
> > or the Macintosh with no working Web browser and not enough disk space
> > to install anything new.
>
> Even on a low end Mac like the Performa, you should be able
> to run:
> Icab ( version 2.9.8 is available free on their web site and
> will run on a 68k Mac running System 7.1 or better )
You can run this, but as someone who limped along on an old mac 7.5.5
system for too long (followed by limping along on OS 9.2.2 for too long
up until about 6 months ago), it's not particulrly fun dealing with most
commercial websites. It's probably better than using lynx on many
sites, but not much. Most old time hacker sites work pretty well, and
basically anybody willing to work to older web standards.
Of course it is certainly superior to sticking your fingers in your ears
and going "I can't! I can't!" all day long.
Michael
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug20-013@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> Icab ( version 2.9.8 is available free on their web site and
> will run on a 68k Mac running System 7.1 or better )
OK, I searched on Google and found: http://www.icab.de/download.php
where it says:
You will be redirected to one of our download servers in 2 seconds,
then your download of iCab in English for Mac OS 7.1-8.1, 68k will
start...
Nope, that didn't happen.
Please click here if the download doesn't start automatically ...
OK, I did that, and lynx then reported:
Downloaded link: http://aegis.at/icab_down/iCab_Pre2.98_English_68k.sit
Suggested file name: iCab_Pre2.98_English_68k.sit
So it wants to download to Unix not a BinHex, whereby I could then use
Kermit to download to my Mac and then unBinHex it there, but a stuffit
archive in binary form directly on my Unix shell account, with no known
way to convert to BinHex on Unix, hence no known way to get it to my
Mac. Any ideas how to proceed?
I searched Google for: BinHex Unix
and found this: http://kb.iu.edu/data/aewr.html
where it says:
To create a BinHex file, enter at the Unix prompt: binhex [options]
file > file.hqx Replace file and file.hqx with, respectively, the file
you wish to encode and the name you wish to give the resulting
BinHexed file. This command has the following options:
-r With this option selected, binhex encodes file as a resource fork.
-d With this option selected, binhex encodes file as a data fork.
First question: Is the iCab_Pre2.98_English_68k.sit file just a
resource fork, or just a data fork, or a MacBinary file which must be
first decoded into resource+data+info files and then re-coded as
BinHex, or is it total garbage when residing on Unix as a binary file?
-c [creator] Replace [creator] with the file creator code you wish to
assign to the document. If you do not specify a file creator, the
resulting BinHexed file's creator will be MACA with the -d and -u
options and RSED with the -r option.
-t [type] Replace [type] with the file type code you wish to assign to
the document. If you do not specify a file type, the resulting
BinHexed file's type will be TEXT with the -d and -u options and
RSRC with the -r option.
I think I may be able to find out what the correct creater and type
codes are for StuffIt archives, except there are several different
versions of StuffIt and I don't know if I have the correct one.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <3mr4csF182n32U1@individual.net>
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
>> Icab ( version 2.9.8 is available free on their web site and
>> will run on a 68k Mac running System 7.1 or better )
>
> OK, I searched on Google and found: http://www.icab.de/download.php
> where it says:
> You will be redirected to one of our download servers in 2 seconds,
> then your download of iCab in English for Mac OS 7.1-8.1, 68k will
> start...
> Nope, that didn't happen.
> Please click here if the download doesn't start automatically ...
> OK, I did that, and lynx then reported:
> Downloaded link: http://aegis.at/icab_down/iCab_Pre2.98_English_68k.sit
> Suggested file name: iCab_Pre2.98_English_68k.sit
> So it wants to download to Unix not a BinHex, whereby I could then use
> Kermit to download to my Mac and then unBinHex it there, but a stuffit
> archive in binary form directly on my Unix shell account, with no known
> way to convert to BinHex on Unix, hence no known way to get it to my
> Mac. Any ideas how to proceed?
So what? Why would you need a binhex file? Isn't stuffit one of the
native packaging formats of the old Mac OS? Just transfer the binary
file to the Mac. If you need, use UUencode, mimeencode, whatever, but
usually binary works fine, unless you have a braindead program that
thinks it needs to twiddle the high bit in some bytes, just because in
ASCII that bit doesn't exist. Get a transfer program (or write one)
that does what it's supposed to: transferring 8-bit bytes without
munging them in a totally unnecessary way.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
From: Michael Sullivan
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <1h1mwwd.18yeo8w6qkc0yN%mes@panix.com>
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
> So what? Why would you need a binhex file? Isn't stuffit one of the
> native packaging formats of the old Mac OS? Just transfer the binary
> file to the Mac.
Doesn't work -- old style mac binaries put important info in the
resource fork, which gets trashed if the file has to sit on a
non-HFS/HFS+ volume at some point. Putting a normal .sit binary (of the
versions he can decode on his sys 7.5.5 mac) on a unix volume probably
destroys it.
Binhex was the standard solution for old macs that creates a file which
will survive on unix and windows filesystems (the resource fork also
ends up in the data stream and mac binhex->binary converters know what
to put back in the resource fork.
I'm almost tempted to get the file myself, convert it binhex and email
to Robert, just to see what the next obstacle he comes up with will be.
Bad Michael, no biscuit!
Michael
From: Steven E. Harris
Subject: Re: I'm still waiting for somebody to offer constructive criticism
Date:
Message-ID: <q94hddpri2c.fsf@xenon.gnostech.com>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> If I don't get any feedback soon, I don't know what I'll do.
How about concluding that no one cares about your discovery that no
one cares?
--
Steven E. Harris
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
> It's been more than 24 hours since I asked for suggestions about the
> wording in this explanation why I'm discontinuing my work on WAP and
> dismantling most of what I previously did. So-far I haven't seen any
> followup that gives any specific comments about anything I may have
> worded wrong that needs improvement. If I don't get any feedback soon,
> I don't know what I'll do.
> http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/WhyInactive.html
> Please, everybody, hurry up and tell me any improvements in wording
> that you can suggest.
You really are an ass, Robert.
You're waiting for constructive criticism because you couldn't recognize
constructive criticism if it was a shark that swallowed you whole.
You've gotten so much more than you deserve, from people who persist in
giving you real informatin and suggestions in the face of your bitching
and moaning about what they say to you.
It's not anybody's job here to edit your fucking wording. Did you grow
up rich with a bunch of servants around or something? Or have you been
catered to by a wife/mother/brother/whatever for your whole life? Take
responsibility for your own shit. When you ask a question on a
newsgroup and nobody answers, that means nobody gives a shit, and they
have every right not to give a shit. Do you really think that because
you beg and plead, you are being any more polite than if you were
ordering people around?
You're asking a favor. Apparently few people care about why you aren't
doing WAP anymore. Which makes sense, because if I read your page
correctly, you're not doing it essentially because nobody cared when you
*were* doing it.
I'm amazed at the lengths you go build the case for a world in which
your huge talents go untapped because of the stupidity/malice/whatever
of hiring managers. If you had put half that much energy into thinking
what people actually want and where it intersects with your
skills/wants, instead of looking for exactly and precisely the kind of
work that you have done in the distant past, I'm quite sure you wouldn't
be where you are.
Go work at McDonalds or a factory for crying out loud. You want a job
where people define the exact parameters of what you have do as if you
aren't much more aware of business and culture than the computers you
program, and that's that. Well, there aren't any programming jobs like
that anymore. Not in the US anyway. Because a lot more brainpower goes
into defining the problems that explicitly than into the actual coding,
and once you've done that part -- Indians and Chinese can and will
finish the code just as well for 1/10th the money. Tough luck. Buggy
whip makers and weavers have been having trouble finding work too, I
hear.
The world doesn't owe you a living. Frankly I'd rather have my taxes
paying you a welfare check than listen to your faux self-righteous
whiny-ass moocher bitching as an employer.
Michael
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: McDonalds/RoundTable, design&farm (was: I'm still waiting for ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug26-005@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ············@spambegone.null (Michael Sullivan)
> ... instead of looking for exactly and precisely the kind of work
> that you have done in the distant past, ...
You're displaying a serious misconception. I'm available for any legal
work where I'd be doing something actually useful so that it would be
worth paying me to do it. It's the employers who refuse to even
consider people who haven't done exactly the same kind of work before.
> Go work at McDonalds
I tried that, when I had less than one year work experience. The
manager at the McDonalds on El Monte near El Camino Real told me that
because I have a college degree he won't consider me for employment
because he'd waste two months training me and then I'd find a better
job elsewhere and he'd be out the expense of training. Later that year
I got a job at Round Table Pizza on University in Palo Alto, where a
ditzy redhead Mrs. Masinter wasn't watching where she was going and
collided with my car and then freaked out seeing the car parts strewn
on the pavement, apologizing, exchanging insurance info, then she drove
off before giving me a chance to inspect the damage and see that all
the damage was to *her* car, not mine. Anyway, Round Table fired me
because I suffer a learning disability, unable to memorize the prices
on the menu. A year or two later I was sitting at a terminal at the
A.I. lab doing my usual work for free, and occasionally running FINGER
to see who else was around, when I saw Larry Masinter logged in, so I
wwnt over and asked if he was in any way related to that ditzy driver,
and indeed that was his former wife. He showed me Lisp for the first
time, impressed me, and after Hans Moravec explained the REP loop to me
I was forever going strong with Lisp.
> or a factory
That's not a good idea. I have very poor muscle coordination, can't
write legibly, can't do sports at all, take ten times as long as anyone
else to do a simple mechanical task in metal/wood shop in school and
still the result is cruddy, need extra space on both sides of car when
I'm driving because I can't judge distance between car and parket cars,
break almost anything physical I try to work on, did I tell you about
the disaster when I tried to do work on my car (tune-up, and lubricate
the air-duct wire-in-sleeve control cables)?
> a lot more brainpower goes into defining the problems that explicitly
> than into the actual coding,
Much of my work at Stanford was like that. Unfortunately there's no way
to express that with buzzwords on a resume, so you're not aware of that
from reading my resumes.
> and once you've done that part -- Indians and Chinese can and will
I'd be glad to design the software, farm it out to I&C, then check what
comes back to make sure it does the job that was required. Do you know
any such software-design jobs available now? I've never seen any such
jobs advertised anywhere, ever in all the years since I started
programming.
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:46:24 -0700, Robert Maas, see
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> ...You're displaying a serious misconception.
We care about your incessant, whining ramblings?
[ F'Ups set to c.l.j.p. only. ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"Use those seconds sensibly or you will inevitably die."
Hawkwind 'Sonic Attack'
From: Joan
Subject: Re: McDonalds/RoundTable, design&farm (was: I'm still waiting for ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <b-ednQ8Mg9dFFY3eRVn-og@comcast.com>
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" <·······@Yahoo.Com>
wrote in message ······················@Yahoo.Com...
>> From: ············@spambegone.null (Michael Sullivan)
>> ... instead of looking for exactly and precisely the kind of
>> work
>> that you have done in the distant past, ...
>
> You're displaying a serious misconception. I'm available for
> any legal
> work where I'd be doing something actually useful so that it
> would be
> worth paying me to do it. It's the employers who refuse to even
> consider people who haven't done exactly the same kind of work
> before.
>
<snip>
Most places that I've worked at don't do something actually
useful.
They try to make it interesting sometimes. But they cancel most
of
the good projects.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug11-011@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Scott Ellsworth <····@alodar.com>
> I found the cluster of comments around "I've been begging people to
> look at my software I've already done, but they say they don't have the
> time or interest" to be negative.
I was just being honest. In 1969 I developed a really good algorithm
but didn't have anybody to show it to. In the 1970's I implemented it
in Algol but didn't use it much at that time. At the start of 1995 I
adapted it to run on my Macintosh Plus and found it very effective at
teaching my children how to read and spell when my son was in
kindergarden (when I first wrote the program) and later when my
daughter was not yet in kindergarden. I impressed everyone around with
their abilities that exceeded their classmates, but I couldn't get
anyone to come over and witness the program itself, up to mid-1999 when
my Mac Plus blew the power/video board and I didn't have enough money
to get it fixed so I had to retire the program. Meanwhile I had
developed a lot of other useful software on my Mac Plus and I couldn't
get anyone to look at them either. Then in late 2000 I discovered that
my Unix shell ISP had CMUCL, so I started porting some of my software
to Unix, but again I couldn't find anyone to sit with me for a
demonstration of my software on my Unix shell account. Then at the end
of 2000 I discovered how easy it was to make my software run in CGI
mode, so that it'd be accessible to just about anyone anywhere on
InterNet, so I set up some CGI demos of some of my useful software
modules that had been previously ported to Unix shell. I was hoping
that with CGI, people wouldn't have to come to my apartment to see a
demo, I could now take the demo to whereever they had a Web browser. I
hoped I could show what I had already, then interface more demos with
CGI and show that too, and pretty soon somebody would see so much good
stuff they'd decide I'm worth hiring me. But it didn't work out that
way. I could only get one person in Real Life to take a serious look at
my CGI demo. He really liked it, but didn't know of any jobs he could
refer me to. So I'm frustrated that nobody (except that one person) is
even interested in looking at a free demo of even a tiny portion of
what I've accomplished in software.
I'm not the kind of person to toot my own horn, to brag and brag and
brag incessantly until somebody takes a chance and hires me without any
evidence except my bragging. I'm a shy kind of person who would rather
show a demo of my work and let the other person decide if it's good or
not. But if nobody will ever look at my work, then nobody will ever
have any reason to hire me.
So if I can't brag about my abilities (because I'm not the braggart
type), and if I can't show demonstrations of my work to people, then
what's your advice how to ever get somebody to hire me again?
> all of what follows only applies when you are doing job networking,
I've never been able to do that, because I've never been able to find
anyone willing to refer me to anyone else, with one exception: A few
weeks ago I was trying to get a roll of quarters for bus and laundry
but the bank had closed earlier than I expected, so I dropped by the
post office but they were closed too but somebody referred me to the
post office annex around the corner that was open on Saturday, but they
didn't carry any significant amount of money. Before leaving I happened
to ask if they knew anyone in the area who might hire me for computer
programming. They referred me to a guy who had an office very close to
the annex. I checked there, met the guy, and indeed he is working on
projects where he might need a CGI interface to some standalone
software he'd already written and was marketing. So the referral from
the post office annex to the guy needing CGI was one instance of
"networking". But so-far that has been a dead-end because he hasn't
gotten any contract to do the CGI stuff so doesn't yet have any money
or need for my services, and he doesn't know anyone else to refer me
to.
All other times I've asked anyone if they knew anyone hiring, they
either knew their own company definitely wasn't hiring and didn't know
any company that was, or they didn't know about anything specific in
their company so I should check the Web site, which I did only to find
it devoid of any job ads except the ones that require 3-5 years
fulltime paid experience in each of ten or twenty technologies that
didn't exist more than five or ten years ago, the same as I get from
Monster.com or CraigsList or any other regular job site, all worthless
to me.
> > I'm sorry but I'm not privy to the internal financial affirs of various
> > companies. It's the job of the hiring manager to observe what software
> > I can produce and then decide whether such software would or would not
> > result in profit for the company.
> Right, but if you have a good idea how they make their money, then you
> can adjust your pitch.
OK, let's work on on a single example: I'd like to work for Sun
Microsystems, implementing some new ideas in Java. But Sun doesn't make
money from Java, they give it away for free. How does Sun actually make
its money, and how can I make a pitch in that direction if I'm actually
intending to develop Java further, or at least that's what I'd like to
work on, actually I'll do whatever they pay me to do, but if I'm to be
excited about my work it should be something I'm personally advocating,
or something else I haven't thought of which somebody there mentions to
me which makes me interested in it. So anyway, how do I learn how Sun
makes money?? I have no idea. I don't a Google search for "how Sun
Microsystems makes money" would give me the info. OK, just to cover all
bases I tried that search just now, and saw comments about how Sun
ought to make money or is trying to make money, but nothing about how
they actually make money, not even on selling operating systems.
So do you know how they make money?? Or even if they do?
> Before an interview, I usually have read the last few annual reports,
> just to get a feel about what the top level guys have been talking
> about.
OK, back to Google: Sun Microsystems annual reports
Done, none of the matches provide any online access to Sun's annual report.
So I guess I don't have that option unless you know of a secret place
where their annual report is available that Google doesn't have indexed.
> In the case of employment, it is a bit different. I am selling
> myself, not code I have already written.
I assume you mean to say you are selling what you can do in the future,
not your physical biological flesh, right? So how is it possible to
sell something that doesn't exist until the future, with no reference
to what I've already done that is indicative of the range of things I
could do in the future?
> Part of what I bring to the party is the code we have developed in
> house to solve certain problems, but really, the thing being sold is
> problem elimination.
Please clarify what you mean by "problem elimination". It sounds like
"pest extermination", but I don't think that's what you mean. Do you
mean like if they have a business procedure involving five steps, but
one of the steps is taking an inordinate amount of time, but if that
one step were automated in a way that fit in with the other steps
nicely then that one step would take much less time without any bad
side effect on the procedure as a whole? Or one of the five steps is
producing very inaccurate results which is messing up the next step
after it, and if that one step were made more accurate then the whole
procedure would come out better? Or am I guessing wrong?
> At the end of the day, my job is to help my clients get their work done.
That's what I'd like to do. How can I find somebody who needs help and
is willing to admit it to a total stranger like me?
> think of it like a custom tailor. ... It is, though, incumbent on him
> to tell you that a bespoke suit runs about a grand (I think, never
> bought one personally) early enough that if you were after a Men's
> Wearhouse price, you know.
I suppose you could characterize my work as custom software at Men's
Wearhouse price.
> I do ... try to get across what kinds of problems I can solve, what
> those problems usually cost, and what I cost by comparison. Ideally,
> this comes up early in the process, because if I am charging way more
> than they want to pay, why waste either of our time?
I have no idea how much other people charge for custom software on a
per-use-case basis or per-function/method basis, so I wouldn't know how
to compare their standard charges with my (hopefully) more-affordable
charges.
> I go in to most such networking situations thinking 'what can I do
> for this person', and 'what is that worth'.
I have no idea how it's possible for a person such as myself seeking
employment (in the generic sense of *any* mode of formal paid work, not
necessarily W-4) to have any reasonable idea whatsoever how much a work
of software will truly be "worth" to the company hiring me. So all I
can honestly claim is what capabilities my new (future) software will
provide, now how much additional profit it'll produce for the company
using it.
> I feel that every job interview is asking them for several hundred
> thousand a year,
Shit, that's an order of magnitude more money than anyone ever paid me
for my work. I would feel like an idiot even mentionning the
possibility of so much money from a new employer. Now I've made a few
significant inventions, such that I think I deserve about a million
dollars for rights to each, but that possibility is just pie in the
sky, not anything realistic.
> It is far from the first thing we talk about, because we have to
> figure out what needs to be done before we can talk about what it will
> cost.
OK, we're in complete agreement on that. I personally need to know
enough about what is needed that I can assess whether it's even likely
I can do the job with reasonable effort in the first place. I don't
want to talk myself into a job where I just sit there frustrated that I
can't figure out how to accomplish the task, and get fired for
incompetance after two weeks or a month. I'd rather let somebody more
qualified have such a job, so I don't get a reputation as somebody who
talks his way into jobs he can't handle. Note that in all my past jobs,
I *could* handle the work, I *could* accomplish the objectives. I
*could* produce software that did what was expected of it. The only
borderline case was a pure A.I. research job (designing software to
convert sloppily-phrased typewritten English-language instructions into
precise algorithms, by having the "robot" recognize ambiguities and
resolve them by not by asking the human what he/she means by the
ambiguous instruction but instead by actually single-stepping the
algorithm up to the point where the ambiguity in instruction means
ambiguity in what micro-step to perform next, and at that point asking
the human which of the various micro-steps he/she intended at that
point, and then reflecting that decision back into resolving the
ambiguity of the original English command). In that pure-research
project, it wasn't necesary to produce useful software, merely to
explore the idea and see how it worked in test cases and then publish a
paper in some computer-linguistics journal. The title was "English
Language Interface for an Instructable Robot", but it was in some
obscure journal I never heard of and can't remember now. I wonder if
Google has it indexed:
English Language Interface for an Instructable Robot Patrick Suppes Robert Maas
Ha ha, the only match it finds is my resume where I mentionned that,
sigh. Is there a good search engine for finding articles in
computational linguistics journals?
> Only you know what you can do for them, and only they know what they
> need. You have to guess, based on insufficient information, what they
> need, and what that is worth. The entire negotiation process is an
> attempt to work that out.
I was going to amend that to say that sometimes from knowing what they
are doing and how they are doing it I can sometimes say what they need,
but then I guess you'd consider that guesswork on my part, which you
already covered. But sometimes my guesses are very educated or
knowledgeable or informed or expert, for which the word "guess" seems
off-base a little. As I said, I can't guess at all how much it's worth
to the company's "bottom line" (net profit).
> Online, I try make my posts technically useful, in hopes that they
> will solve someone else's problem, and make them want to track me down.
I do that too. A couple people have contacted me privately about some
hairbrained idea of the moment they felt a desire to do, such as using
a programmable logic array to emulate a Lisp-machine CPU, and I'd start
talking with them regarding more specifics of what they wanted to
accomplish and how to do it, and I'd start brainstorming a prototype
(strawman) design as a starting point for the analysis/design stage,
but within a few days they'd realize their original idea wasn't a good
one and they'd close off communication on that topic. I've never had a
serious contact from somebody who had a serious workable business idea.
I have no idea why the serious people contact you but not me. I've
proposed a heap of good ideas for future R&D projects, regarding Java
libraries, abiogenesis research, whatever, but none of it has triggered
anybody wishing to hire me to develop some of those ideas nor even for
developing their own business plans that were similar enough in general
ways to my proposals that they would think I might like their ideas and
be able to implement them. So why do you get such offers, but I don't?
I've done more than my share of helping people online for more than
thirty years, in the Stanford and MIT and ARPANET communities way back
then, and over the InterNet since early 1991.
> I do happen to have some space on my dance card, so I am calling
> people I have worked for and with, and letting them know.
I don't have that option. I don't know how to contact anyone from my
former work except Patrick Suppes who retired about ten years ago, my
supervisor there who got laid off at that time when Pat shut down IMSSS
where we had worked, and some people from the Stanford A.I. lab who
have all retired. None of them know of any current or recent openings
to suggest to me, and none of them have any connections to anyone else
who could talk with me about employment etc.
> I hate Perl, but like Java and ObjC.
I like Java but Lisp better for most purposes. I hate Perl, for one
precise reason, that it mixmashes lots of datatypes together so you
can't tell what type an item is supposed to be and you absolutely can't
distinguish two different types that happen to have the same print
representation such as strings whose characters all happen to be digits
at the moment and actual numeric values, so a+b could either add or
concatenate depending on what characters happen to be in the two
strings at the moment. I'm curious as to your reason for hating Perl.
> I am starting to like Ruby.
% whereis ruby
ruby:
It doesn't seem to be available here on FreeBSD Unix, unless there's
some other name it's called here, do you know the correct filename to
look for on Unix? Anyway, AFAIK I've never had access to any system
that supported Ruby, so I'm jealous of your situation of getting a
chance to try it.
> You suggested that you had no idea what your skills were worth, and I
> suggested that an open source project might give you that information,
> by showing you how your skills compare with others currently getting
> paid.
The whole point of open source is that nobody is getting paid one dime
for all their work, and the work will be given to the world at large
absolutely for free, right? I don't see how that kind of environment
will produce any data whatsoever about how much people get paid in
their employment if any they might have elsewhere than open-source
projects. In the past, open-source projects I've worked on never had
any hint of money anyone was getting from anywhere. I don't see why
it'd be any different now. What am I missing about the argument you're
trying to make? Oh, are you saying the project wouldn't tell anything
about pay rates, but might tell something just about raw skills and
abilities and productiveness of variuos people as they contribute to
the project? It didn't work out that way either. Each of us was working
on totally different implementations, and it was impossible to compare
one person's work on one system compared with another person's work on
another system, and no record was kept of how many hours anybody worked
so there was no way to compare per-hour-worked productiveness of the
various people. Just at one group meeting somebody would say they were
working on something, and then a month or so later at another group
meeting they'd announce they had their implementation partly working
and they'd pass out printouts of their source code (8080 assembly for
example). I had no idea how many hours of work it took them to write
and debug ten printed-pages of code. I didn't even keep track of my own
time on such free projects, so I didn't even know my own rate of
production per unit work time.
So, I ask everyone, how can I find somebody with money for hiring who
would interview me for serious consideration for some kind of paid work?
Is there any value in showing work I've already done as a sample of
what I am capable of, toward the goal of getting a serious interview?
Is there any online software-piecework morket where I can make bids on
small (*) tasks somebody wants done, and if I'm the lowest bidder then
I have one week to finish a fixed-price contract per my bid?
* (expected 20-30 hours work needed to complete such a software task)
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote in
message
> So if I can't brag about my abilities (because I'm not the braggart
> type)...
I'm not sure how you are taking my posts here, because they might sound like
cheap shots. They are not. Please understand what I mean when I point out
you are _very_ good at bragging about what a bad time you are having.
Done right, that's called The Blues. Just keep it short!
Now, about setting yourself up for impossible expectations...
> OK, let's work on on a single example: I'd like to work for Sun
> Microsystems, implementing some new ideas in Java.
What the hell does working in Java have to do with working for Sun? Do you
really expect them to drop what they are doing and declare a permanent
corporate holiday on the day you arrive and announce you want to experiment
with their toy language??
If you _really_ believed in this new idea, you would write it up, give it
away for free on the Java communities, and generate some buzz. Never think
for a minute that getting money has anything to do with preserving your
intellectual property. That ways lies madness.
> ...But so-far that has been a dead-end because he hasn't
> gotten any contract to do the CGI stuff so doesn't yet have any money
> or need for my services, and he doesn't know anyone else to refer me
> to.
One more thing. If you ever get near the negotiating step again, offer to
pay per "story point". (Look it up.) That means the customer requests a
line-item for a feature ("put a button here that..."), and you estimate in
hours how long it will take.
Then you charge to the estimate, not the actual. Demand the _smallest_
possible line items - 2 to 9 hours each - to make them easy to estimate.
This technique simplifies the hell out of client negotiations and
discussions. If the cost is high, the client redacts line-items from a
feature. If the estimate is low, you learn something and coast for a while.
If the estimate is low, you spend time cleaning up the codebase. So you and
the client have a compelling motivation to efficiently converge on the
minimum feature set that maximizes value.
The reticence at the "now I need funds to put you on this job" step is
because so many of your peers have destroyed your potential customers' faith
in programmers. Yes, they would rather hire an idiot freshly graduated to
use the latest buzzword-compliant crap, rather than a senior who knows how
to prevent bugs and stabilize development. Then they must have a huge cash
reserve to retain this idiot, because they never know which feature request
will cause long expensive bug hunts. Charging per estimate flattens all that
overhead and puts you in front of the whole bad scene.
> It doesn't seem to be available here on FreeBSD Unix, unless there's
> some other name it's called here, do you know the correct filename to
> look for on Unix? Anyway, AFAIK I've never had access to any system
> that supported Ruby, so I'm jealous of your situation of getting a
> chance to try it.
What the hell? You have no Win32? The Ruby distro on RubyForge has a
standard installer, easier than falling off a log!
You really need to work on the positive thinking angle!!!
> The whole point of open source is that nobody is getting paid one dime
> for all their work, and the work will be given to the world at large
> absolutely for free, right?
No. It's to get them hooked and then charge for the upgrades. Nobody said
you couldn't start charging if someone starts using your code, then needs a
new feature. Do you think the GNU license prevents you from charging for
that?
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Phlip wrote:
> > It doesn't seem to be available here on FreeBSD Unix, unless there's
> > some other name it's called here, do you know the correct filename to
> > look for on Unix? Anyway, AFAIK I've never had access to any system
> > that supported Ruby, so I'm jealous of your situation of getting a
> > chance to try it.
Let me make sure I understand this... you are looking for Ruby on
FreeBSD? If so, it's a fundamental part of the portupgrade system.
Ruby works great on FreeBSD.
> > The whole point of open source is that nobody is getting paid one dime
> > for all their work, and the work will be given to the world at large
> > absolutely for free, right?
>
> No. It's to get them hooked and then charge for the upgrades. Nobody said
> you couldn't start charging if someone starts using your code, then needs a
> new feature. Do you think the GNU license prevents you from charging for
> that?
Don't forget about the wonderful BSD license. You can do whatever you
want with it, pretty much. You can take it (it's not stealing to take
something given to you), modify it, and then either keep the changes to
yourself, contribute them back to the project, or use them for
competitive advantage for a time, and *then* contribute them. That's
the one I like. Keep in mind, if you keep the changes to yourself, it
becomes harder and harder to maintain the codebase and keep it in sync
with the original project. So the incentive is to merge your
improvements before that happens. The BSD model is great, IMHO.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug15-015@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "jonathon" <···········@bigfoot.com>
> Let me make sure I understand this... you are looking for Ruby on
> FreeBSD?
Yeah. Somebody said they really liked Ruby, so I thought maybe I'll
give it a try and see what I think of it. But when I said whereis ruby
nothing turned up, so I guess it's not installed here.
> If so, it's a fundamental part of the portupgrade system.
Then I suppose the Unix shell ISP where my account is located, doesn't
have the portupgrade system installed.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Expect/standards/lineItemBilling (was: How much should I charge...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug26-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
> about setting yourself up for impossible expectations...
I have 22+ years experience writing computer software. I expect that
should be sufficient to qualify me for *some* job by now.
> If you _really_ believed in this new idea, you would write it up,
> give it away for free on the Java communities, and generate some buzz.
I am not Bill Gates. I don't have the power to decide upon my pet idea,
without consulting other leaders in industry, order my staff to install
my pet idea exactly as I conceived it, without any improvements that
might be obtained by consulting with other leaders in industry, make it
a bundled part of my operating system, and thereby force my albatross
across the neck of half the computer users in the world, as a de facto
standard everyone else must follow or die.
I'm just one bright guy among many. I get new ideas, which might be
really good, but require consultation with others to get a wider idea
of how to make it a best standard that really ought to be adopted
widely. So I'm looking to find a community of developers who get
feedback from many customers, to brainstorm with me to work out the
kinks in my idea before we start trying to standardize it.
Some of my ideas don't require standardization. I'm just providing an
end-user service, and I can just write the code my own particular way,
get it working, and install it as a CGI service for others to use. But
my proposal for a portable interval-arithmetic standard, that is
essentially the same in Java, Common Lisp, Scheme, Emacs Lisp, and any
other suitable languages, requires more than just one person saying how
it'll be.
Please let me know if you were thinking of some other idea of mine, not
interval arithmetic.
> If you ever get near the negotiating step again, offer to pay per
> "story point". (Look it up.)
What do you "again"? When, to your knowledge, do you allege that I was
ever in a situation where I could negotiate about anything in any way
related to employment?
I tried to look up "story point" in both Google Web and Google Groups.
Virtually all references were to literature (writing fiction). The only
useful references for what you might be talking about were in "extreme
programming", that IMO ridiculous programming system where all code has
to be duplicated by two different people on a team, and where the teams
are shuffled every day or even more often, and then I presume some sort
of regression is used to determine the individual output of each
employee:
I've been looking into using a use-case driven progress-tracking
appoach based on Robert Martin's 12/2003 SD article called The Bottom
Line. The idea is that you use weighted groups of requirements (e.g.,
stories or cohesive groups of use case steps) called story points to
find out just how many story points your team can complete within a
set amount of time.
Story points is an
interesting idea, I've started tagging stories/use cases as Easy,
Medium or Hard. Is this a similar thing? Or do story points translate
to some arbitrary time/effort expense?
Is that what you're talking about there?
> Then you charge to the estimate, not the actual. Demand the _smallest_
> possible line items - 2 to 9 hours each - to make them easy to estimate.
I can't demand anything. I'm lucky if they pay me any money at all for
the work I do for them. The most I can do is suggest that line
micro-items might be a good way to do the billing. Then I'll give them
exactly what they say they most want instead of a whole package of
stuff that is half what they wanted and half extra stuff I thought
they'd like but I was mistaken (or they really did need it and like it
but it was "invisible" so I never got credit for it because then never
looked at my code enough to see it in there). Then later when they
realize they need more, such as the stuff I would have just thrown in
as part of the bundle using the old system, they pay me more to do
more, and it ends up the same as the old system (same total software,
same total money) except they appreciate every little thing I did,
nothing "invisible".
> The reticence at the "now I need funds to put you on this job" step
> is because so many of your peers have destroyed your potential
> customers' faith in programmers. Yes, they would rather hire an idiot
> freshly graduated to use the latest buzzword-compliant crap, rather
> than a senior who knows how to prevent bugs and stabilize development.
I can't prevent *all* bugs by my all-levels unit testing, occasionally
a design oversight leaks through and I have to track down which module
is misbehaving and fix it. But one bug per month of programming, and
one day to track it down and fix it and re-test everything programmed
to date, IMO isn't a bad bug-rate for a one-person project with not
even one other person to give feedback about design or to help
unit-test large modules. Agree?
Anyway, in general I like your suggestion of charging per estimate
(standard for all contract work AFAIK) but making that charging based
on micro-features written&debugged rather than just a bulk price for a
poorly-specified overall system. It seems more likely that I can get
the customer pinned down on exactly what use cases are to be installed
if each is priced separately. (There would be two kinds of use cases in
this kind of micro-billing system: Middle-level capability, which is
apparent only in test rigs, and top-level user-application cases, which
show up in actual product. I'd make it clear which middle-level
capability is being programmed, and how it might enable a more general
class of user-application cases in the future, in addition to its need
as a foundation for the current user-application case. That should
avoid the client telling me to write totally unstructured code where
everything is inline at the topmost level with not a single reusable
mid-level utility, to reduce the number of items I bill for by a
cheapskate customer.)
Example (I'm talking to my client): You said you wanted a way for users
to log in and log out. I propose a mid-level utility which keeps track
of logged-in users in a table in a relational database. This will
support all of the following use cases easily:
- User logs in the normal way via the Web.
- User logs out the normal way via the Web.
- User loses his/her net connection, and tries to log in again while
already logged in. Option of killing old login first, or attaching to
old login and simply continuing where left off.
- User forgets to log out and leaves login hanging. Sysadmin needs to
bring down system to do backup, and therefore needs to log out all such
hanging logins first.
- User is misbehaving. Sysadmin needs to lock that user out.
At this time, I'd bill for the mid-level utility, and the first two use
cases, leaving the rest as easy options if you ever need them, OK?
> You have no Win32?
That's correct. I have no access to any Windows system whatsoever,
except at the public library which allows only IE, no other program
whatsoever, not even Note Pad.
> You really need to work on the positive thinking angle!!!
Lying to myself to convince myself things are better than they really
are, has never been my strong suit.
I have, however, been tricked many times, when things seemed like they
were getting better, and I actually believed they were getting better,
until I realized I had been mistaken. For example, a few times I
thought a woman loved me, only to find out that wasn't true. One time I
got a permanent job, only to be fired five months later because my
employer discovered I was disabled. Several more such examples.
> > The whole point of open source is that nobody is getting paid one dime
> > for all their work, and the work will be given to the world at large
> > absolutely for free, right?
> No. It's to get them hooked and then charge for the upgrades. Nobody said
> you couldn't start charging if someone starts using your code, then needs a
> new feature. Do you think the GNU license prevents you from charging for
> that?
Except the people who don't have money for software in the first place,
who therefore are forced to use free software (freeware, and open
source), are unlikely to be willing to pay for upgrades. It would be a
very small market for those tiny fraction of people not willing to pay
for the software in the first place but then willing to pay for
upgrades, like probably less than one percent of the total free users,
and even so they wouldn't be willing to pay for a new feature that cost
thirty hours of my time (a thousand dollars) unless there are at least
ten others who want exactly the same feature to share the cost.
Something general like Linux, I can see a million customers, with one
thousand of them willing to pay for an extra feature, but only ten of
them agree on exactly which new feature, and that's right at the
threshold for sharing cost $100 per customer. But I don't expect to
have a million users for some specialized tool I write. The main tools
used by millions (Linux, RDBMS, spreadsheet, WebBrowser,
mail&newsgroups, wordProcessor, incomeTaxFiling, etc.) have already
been written so there's no way I could get into those markets. I doubt
there'd be a million customers for an XML/RSS-based utility for
consolidating and prioritizing watches on various sources (newsgroup
threads, Yahoo! Groups, e-mail accounts, news wire topics, blogs,
etc.), but I might be able to attract a hundred users, in which case a
centralized server-side consolidator/prioritizer with freeware
client-side alerter would support charging for CGI directly after an
introductory free period.
So how can I find anyone in the local area (Sunnyvale, CA) willing to
purchase my services on a line-item basis, or anyone anywhere on the
net willing to brainstorm with me on a new interval-arithmetic
standard, or willing to try my various specialized utilities and give
me feedback?
(Missing word "mean", exercise for reader where it belongs.)
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:45:07 -0700, Robert Maas, .. wrote:
X-Post to: comp.programming,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.lisp
Isn't it about time you stopped abusing these 3 groups
for your personal whining and bitching, Robert?
It got quite boring, around 5-10 threads ago.
[ F'Ups to this post set to c.l.j.p. only ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"Not a word, could I relate. The story was quite clear.."
Led Zeppelin 'Kashmir'
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote
(in article <·················@Yahoo.Com>):
>> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
>> about setting yourself up for impossible expectations...
>
> I have 22+ years experience writing computer software. I expect that
> should be sufficient to qualify me for *some* job by now.
McDonald's is hiring. I know, it's not funny. But, if you were
carrying a foreign passport, you'd probably be hired instantly.
Or, you could move to a foreign country to work for US countries
that want to outsource. Yeah, real enticing isn't it?
> So how can I find anyone in the local area (Sunnyvale, CA) willing to
> purchase my services on a line-item basis, or anyone anywhere on the
> net willing to brainstorm with me on a new interval-arithmetic
> standard, or willing to try my various specialized utilities and give
> me feedback?
Put an ad in the paper? Knock on small business doors and ask
them if they need help, and offer to do something they need done
/today/ for no charge to show your abilities. IOW, work for it,
instead of sitting around on Usenet whining about why people
aren't hiring you. If you have time for this despite being
unemployed, then you have time to working on some commercial
software product that you can sell, even if it's 9.95 a copy
shareware on download.com.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: Expect/standards/lineItemBilling (was: How much should I charge...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87wtm7pz4z.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I tried to look up "story point" in both Google Web and Google Groups.
> Virtually all references were to literature (writing fiction).
Then you need to learn to do a search.
A search on ' "story point" programming' brought up several documents
that discuss story points and how many story points a pair programming
team can handle each week.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
······@bigpond.net.au wrote
(in article <··············@kafka.homenet>):
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>> I tried to look up "story point" in both Google Web and Google Groups.
>> Virtually all references were to literature (writing fiction).
>
> Then you need to learn to do a search.
Why bother?
> A search on ' "story point" programming' brought up several documents
> that discuss story points and how many story points a pair programming
> team can handle each week.
Anytime you are worrying about counting story points, or lines
of code per delta_t, or 'programmer activity units' or any other
made-for-the-slideshow gibberish, you are working to make some
micromanager happy, not to write code. Programmers don't give a
hoot about 'story points', they care about meeting (and
hopefully exceeding) their project requirements and schedule
without compromising quality.
Spending 6 months out of every 12 memorizing a new set of
made-up terms to describe some supposedly novel way to write
software may be interesting for project planners, and keep them
going to nice seminars adjacent to interesting golf courses, but
for everyone else it is a colossal waste of time.
(It does of course open up a financial bonanza for the evil
folks that descend on these new buzzword festivals with training
materials, certification programs, books, self-paced CD study
kits, t-shirts, motivational posters and of course, special
high-$$ software to track all the new buzzwords as the lemmings
meander through the new labyrinth now created for them.
Here's an example of the mind-numbing stupidity expressed in the
latest incarnation, 'story points' from google searching...
"Managing estimation and keeping with deadlines is always a art
than a science."
Let's pretend like that is a well-written sentence and keep
going.
"... But it doesn't mean we can not utilize the science at all
for project management."
I knew this was BS for managers and planners.
"... Robert Martin suggests us two charts that can be very
useful hanging on wall -"
The author is functionally illiterate, but we finally get to
something...
"... 'Velocity Chart' - illustrating, week by week, how much
work is actually getting done?"
Hmm, sounds like something a project planner would keep track
of, but is basically irrelevant to programming. What needs to
be tracked is how much is remaining. Since development isn't
linear, like walking at nn miles per hour, you can't really
measure that all that well either unless the person doing the
measuring is extremely experienced, knows all of the project
details, and has worked with all the team members long enough to
be an accurate predictor of their likely forward progress rate
given the remaining problems.
"... 'Story Points Chart' - week by week, how much work remains
to be done in the project."
Ahh, there we are. A story points chart, doesn't that sound
lovely? Well guess what. It's a dated to do list, although
when created by people that buy into lingo instead of action,
it's probably not as informative.
And here we have an open admission of what I was saying
earlier...
http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=8958/sdm0312f/sdm0312f.html
"Well, here�s the bottom line: Agile methods are merely a
technique for managing software projects. Their purpose is to
provide managers with the data they need to make timely
management decisions. And this should be good news for those
project managers who know that managing a software project often
involves more prayer than science."
So there is the smoking gun, it is to make managers happy. Note
that it doesn't say anything about better, faster, cheaper, or
anything that might actually be useful, but gives them better
charts for their powerpoint presentations to the next layer of
morons in the meeting next Tuesday. Don't pretend like "make
timely management decisions" means anything valuable. It means,
"should I ask them to work late and slide a pizza under the lab
door before I knock off early to bang my secretary?".
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
In article <·······························@news.verizon.net>,
Randy Howard <···········@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote:
[...]
> Ahh, there we are. A story points chart, doesn't that sound
> lovely? Well guess what. It's a dated to do list, although
> when created by people that buy into lingo instead of action,
> it's probably not as informative.
I have joined very few software teams whose programmers had a good grasp
of time, or progress towards the goal.
After one dreadful experience, I started to make 'what is the goal, and
how are we doing on getting there' a part of my toolkit. Not because I
love project management or project planning - I prefer writing code -
but because I saw teammates get their teeth into an interesting problem,
then burn cycles trying to optimize something only done once in a blue
moon.
The whole 'story points' or other agile bushwah at least gets the
programmers committed to shipping software that does something somebody
wants. Sure, that is what management is supposed to do, but a lot of
those managers have never been taught how to manage. Thus, a wise
developer finds ways to manage their own time, and ways to be clear
about what they need their manager to do to get the job done.
Story points is just one of many ways, and it works or it fails
depending on who does it, and how much their own management is listening.
[...]
> "Well, here�s the bottom line: Agile methods are merely a
> technique for managing software projects. Their purpose is to
> provide managers with the data they need to make timely
> management decisions. And this should be good news for those
> project managers who know that managing a software project often
> involves more prayer than science."
Yep. I have used Agile and XP methodologies, along with waterfall, seat
of the pants, low hanging fruit, and hardest problem in sight. Each one
worked or failed depending on the team, the project, and the management.
> So there is the smoking gun, it is to make managers happy. Note
> that it doesn't say anything about better, faster, cheaper, or
> anything that might actually be useful, but gives them better
> charts for their powerpoint presentations to the next layer of
> morons in the meeting next Tuesday.
I sense bitterness.
Look, better, faster, cheaper, and useful all depend on the next word -
better than _what_. If an agile methodology means that your team
figures out that they have six months of work, and three months of
schedule sometime in month one, rather than in the last week of month
three, then it did its job. If it then lets you prove it to whoever is
setting the schedule, then you had a big win.
If it is just a set of buzzwords a manager uses, and that the team could
care less about, it is a waste of time. Like any other methodology.
It is not magic, it is not a mind control laser that will make your
management get clue it has lacked. It may, though, have the buzzwords
needed to get someone to listen. Very often, getting a dramatic change
requires evidence that someone else tried a similar change, and is still
employed.
Scott
--
Scott Ellsworth
·····@alodar.nospam.com
Java and database consulting for the life sciences
From: Joan
Subject: Re: Expect/standards/lineItemBilling (was: How much should I charge...)
Date:
Message-ID: <W9adnTiDuIqfFY3eRVn-pw@comcast.com>
"Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t" <·······@Yahoo.Com>
wrote in message ······················@Yahoo.Com...
>> From: "Phlip" <········@yahoo.com>
>> about setting yourself up for impossible expectations...
>
> I have 22+ years experience writing computer software. I expect
> that
> should be sufficient to qualify me for *some* job by now.
<snip>
Can you say "welcome to wallmart"
Can you say "bye bye"
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> OK, back to Google: Sun Microsystems annual reports
> Done, none of the matches provide any online access to Sun's annual report.
> So I guess I don't have that option unless you know of a secret place
> where their annual report is available that Google doesn't have indexed.
search for "Sun Microsystems annual reports" at Google (without the quotes)
and the seconds link show you a page with a link to
http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/investor/annual_reports/sun_ar04.pdf, which
shows you some interesting information, for example that one of the main
income was $1,950 million from Microsoft.
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss <··@frank-buss.de> writes:
> Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>
>> OK, back to Google: Sun Microsystems annual reports
>> Done, none of the matches provide any online access to Sun's annual report.
>> So I guess I don't have that option unless you know of a secret place
>> where their annual report is available that Google doesn't have indexed.
>
> search for "Sun Microsystems annual reports" at Google (without the quotes)
> and the seconds link show you a page with a link to
> http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/investor/annual_reports/sun_ar04.pdf, which
> shows you some interesting information, for example that one of the main
> income was $1,950 million from Microsoft.
eg. which were not earned by programmers, but by lawyers. Become a lawyer!
--
"I have challenged the entire quality assurance team to a Bat-Leth
contest. They will not concern us again."
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:42:30 -0700
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> strings whose characters all happen to be digits
> at the moment and actual numeric values, so a+b could either add or
> concatenate depending on what characters happen to be in the two
> strings at the moment.
Perl doesn't do that, a+b will always add and a.b will always
concatenate. If there are no leading digits in the string it turns to 0
for the adding.
perl -e 'print "fred" + "jim"';
0
perl -e 'print "fred" . "jim"';
fredjim
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> So anyway, how do I learn how Sun
> makes money?? I have no idea. I don't a Google search for "how Sun
> Microsystems makes money" would give me the info. OK, just to cover all
> bases I tried that search just now, and saw comments about how Sun
> ought to make money or is trying to make money, but nothing about how
> they actually make money, not even on selling operating systems.
> So do you know how they make money?? Or even if they do?
> [...]
> OK, back to Google: Sun Microsystems annual reports
> Done, none of the matches provide any online access to Sun's annual report.
> So I guess I don't have that option unless you know of a secret place
> where their annual report is available that Google doesn't have indexed.
finance.yahoo.com is better to answer this question.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SUNW
See the SEC Filings: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/sec?s=SUNW
In the Net revenues. you'll note that it gets twice more revenues from
products (computers) than from services (programmers?).
From the Operatin gexpenses, you'll see that they don't send too much
on programmers anyway: most is spent on "selling, general and
administrative" (become a seller or an accountant), and the rest on
R&D (get a PHD).
> So, I ask everyone, how can I find somebody with money for hiring who
> would interview me for serious consideration for some kind of paid work?
>
> Is there any value in showing work I've already done as a sample of
> what I am capable of, toward the goal of getting a serious interview?
>
> Is there any online software-piecework morket where I can make bids on
> small (*) tasks somebody wants done, and if I'm the lowest bidder then
> I have one week to finish a fixed-price contract per my bid?
>
> * (expected 20-30 hours work needed to complete such a software task)
http://www.codelance.com/
By the way, you don't need to limit yourself to $200 tasks. Microsft
offers $5M to track virus writers (you'd need a good Internet
connection to do that though).
http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/05/technology/microsoftbounty/?cnn=yes
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not
want merely because you think it would be good for him. -- Robert Heinlein
From: Tiarnán Ó Corráin
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <m2r7cz8m8p.fsf@Cascade.local>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> I am starting to like Ruby.
>
> % whereis ruby
> ruby:
> It doesn't seem to be available here on FreeBSD Unix, unless there's
> some other name it's called here, do you know the correct filename to
> look for on Unix? Anyway, AFAIK I've never had access to any system
> that supported Ruby, so I'm jealous of your situation of getting a
> chance to try it.
% pkg_add -r ruby
HTH
Tiarn�n
········@yahoo.com (Tiarn�n � Corr�in) writes:
>> ruby:
>> It doesn't seem to be available here on FreeBSD Unix, unless there's
>> some other name it's called here, do you know the correct filename to
>> look for on Unix? Anyway, AFAIK I've never had access to any system
>> that supported Ruby, so I'm jealous of your situation of getting a
>> chance to try it.
>
>% pkg_add -r ruby
and:
$ pkg_info -R ruby*
Information for ruby-1.8.2_4:
Required by:
portupgrade-20041226_3
ruby18-bdb1-0.2.2
...
Odd that his ISP's sysadmin doesn't have portupgrade installed on the
FreeBSD box (which sucks in ruby as a dependency)... I'd think that's
pretty standard but then again, some of those people just setup the
box once and then don't bother about it anymore...
mkb.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
Sorry Robert, I have snipped everything. Now, do I have this right?
You are a highly skilled programmer located in Silicon Valley and out of
work for how long? A year? More?
You can't find a job in Santa Clara County even at minimum wage? There
are thousands of programming jobs in the Valley. The turnover is on the
order of hundreds of programmers a day.
What's your problem, Body Odor? Are you really Ugly?
Do you want cheese with your whine sir?
It's called Selling. Do it!
--
Joe Wright
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <87zmrlgsya.fsf@kafka.homenet>
Joe Wright <·······@comcast.net> writes:
> You are a highly skilled programmer located in Silicon Valley and out
> of work for how long?
Delete the "higly skilled"
His idea of skills is displaying his Hello World programs
on his web site.
>A year? More?
Fifteen years or more.
> You can't find a job in Santa Clara County even at minimum wage?
> What's your problem, Body Odor? Are you really Ugly?
Appears to be emotional/mental.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug15-016@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> His idea of skills is displaying his Hello World programs on his web site.
You blindly walk up to an elephant, reach out, and feel one tooth, and
immediately conclude that tooth is the entire elephant.
I suggest you play this game: Connect to this URL:
http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/topscript.cgi
Select the radio button titled "Random words from file"
Click on the submit button titled "Start the demo of SegMat per ..."
then try to guess the missing words. Each time you get one correct,
read the enlarged text to get an idea of something I have accomplished.
Then press BACK button on your browser until you're back at the big
form, then press the submit button again to start the game with a new
random world. While you're playing that game repeatedly, see if you can
find *any* mention whatsoever of Hello World programs among the
accomplishments I'm proud of.
Hi, Robert.
Just a couple of quick comments in direct response to some questions:
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: Scott Ellsworth <····@alodar.com>
[...]
>
> I'm not the kind of person to toot my own horn, to brag and brag and
> brag incessantly until somebody takes a chance and hires me without any
> evidence except my bragging. I'm a shy kind of person who would rather
> show a demo of my work and let the other person decide if it's good or
> not. But if nobody will ever look at my work, then nobody will ever
> have any reason to hire me.
>
> So if I can't brag about my abilities (because I'm not the braggart
> type), and if I can't show demonstrations of my work to people, then
> what's your advice how to ever get somebody to hire me again?
Simply put, there is a world of difference between "brag and brag and
brag incessantly" and making it clear to the world that you are looking,
and bringing certain skills to the party. Essentially, you try to find
a context where talking about what you know how to do, and what "they"
need is acceptable, like a user's group meeting or a BOF.
I would not want to hire someone that buttonholed me, then would not
shut up. I do not think, though, that it is out of line to attend a
Java users group meeting, talk about recent projects, and then to hand
out my cards to those who seem at all interested in what I have done.
Mine say 'Java, Cocoa, and database consulting for the life sciences' as
that is what earns _most_ of my income.
I do a heck of a lot more than that - after reading a rails book,
experimenting some on my own, and writing up my feelings about how it
compares to Tapestry, JSP, and PHP, I have a pretty good feel for how
Ruby on Rails works. I would be willing to take on a contract in it.
My card does not mention it, but I might in conversation at such a
users' group meeting.
I might consider presenting my thoughts at such a meeting, perhaps with
a few slides showing identical results, and how I got there using the
three technologies. Alternatively, perhaps this goes on a blog.
Different audience, and no way to pass out cards, but people can find it
by google - it balances.
[...]
Others have discussed how you might research Sun and what they do, and
how you might find people at Sun who are publicly visible, and perhaps
willing to talk.
> > Part of what I bring to the party is the code we have developed in
> > house to solve certain problems, but really, the thing being sold is
> > problem elimination.
>
> Please clarify what you mean by "problem elimination". It sounds like
> "pest extermination", but I don't think that's what you mean. Do you
> mean like if they have a business procedure involving five steps, but
> one of the steps is taking an inordinate amount of time, but if that
> one step were automated in a way that fit in with the other steps
> nicely then that one step would take much less time without any bad
> side effect on the procedure as a whole? Or one of the five steps is
> producing very inaccurate results which is messing up the next step
> after it, and if that one step were made more accurate then the whole
> procedure would come out better? Or am I guessing wrong?
Exactly right. More, I want my clients to feel like I make their lives
easier - if they ask me to solve a problem, they get a list of options,
their costs and tradeoffs, and someone willing to implement them for
those prices. Sometimes, they just want me to pick a solution,
implement it, and tell them it is done, and it is my call which class a
given problem is in.
I do guess wrong sometimes, but if I understand their process, and keep
my eye on how much they are paying, those mistakes are minor and can be
recovered from.
> > At the end of the day, my job is to help my clients get their work done.
>
> That's what I'd like to do. How can I find somebody who needs help and
> is willing to admit it to a total stranger like me?
The user group example I gave above is just an example, but it is one I
am trying to work up. Based on the past, if I convince the people
running a user group to let me talk, at least one person is going to
want to talk about their problems in that area - something like 'We
tried a JSP-based app, and it was just too slow.' This might lead to
work - I know how a profiler works and a depressing number of people do
not.
[...]
> > I do ... try to get across what kinds of problems I can solve, what
> > those problems usually cost, and what I cost by comparison. Ideally,
> > this comes up early in the process, because if I am charging way more
> > than they want to pay, why waste either of our time?
>
> I have no idea how much other people charge for custom software on a
> per-use-case basis or per-function/method basis, so I wouldn't know how
> to compare their standard charges with my (hopefully) more-affordable
> charges.
I meant that you should compare it to what the problem is costing them.
For example - if every sales guy has his own Access database of
contacts, and I am proposing one big MySql database with everyone's
contacts, I can argue that this will let them cross sell, or perhaps
that it will save them their four hour 'sales report meeting' every
week. If it saves ten people three hours (they still likely need to
report and meet some), then that is worth mumble mumble figure figure
30*25 or $750 per week for ten sales guys at $50k.
Again, I have to guess, but a wild assed guess is better than nothing,
and if I am clear about my assumptions, they will usually correct any
really boneheaded number I used.
Others have already addressed ruby, and pointed out some online
piecework places.
Good luck,
Scott
--
Scott Ellsworth
·····@alodar.nospam.com
Java and database consulting for the life sciences
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: BuzzWords/BOF/UG (was: How much should I charge for fixed-price...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug26-006@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Scott Ellsworth <····@alodar.com>
> there is a world of difference between "brag and brag and brag
> incessantly" and making it clear to the world that you are looking,
How do I let potential employers know I'm looking, and able to start
work immediately, without letting them know I'm currently umemployed? I
got castigated by some people in this thred just because the very first
resume I wrote in 1991 happened to mention that I was currently
unemployed (3 months at the time) and available to start work
immediately. I'm not the kind of person to jump jobs, quit a job before
the project is completed, and while they still need me, just because I
found a better job at another company, and I don't want any potential
employer to think I'm that kind of person.
> and bringing certain skills to the party.
I have no idea how to express my qualities of work in buzzwords that
the junior staff member filtering resumes into trash can would
recognize as a reason to select mine to stay out of the can. Do you
have any ideas to help me, or do you just like kicking people while
they are down and I shouldn't expect you to offer any useful ideas?
When I used to have a car and be on the mailing list, I used to attend
the BOF meetings at Shorline Park in Mountain View, but I haven't been
able to find any announcements of them in recent years, so I haven't
been able to attend any, and since late 2003 I haven't had a car to get
to them anyway. But back when I did attend, there was no opportunity to
talk with other attendees about anything that would help me get a job.
Many years ago I went to Macintosh UG meetings, no chance to talk about
anything there either.
Last year my Java instructor told me about a Java puzzles meeting in
the Oak room near Wolfe and Pruneridge, and I did good at solving the
puzzles, but the only chance to talk with anyone was just one
conversation that lingered afterward and then had to be moved outside
so the building could be locked, and none of the conversation was of
any use toward employment or inside contacts. I haven't heard of any
other Java meeting in this area since then.
Lisp UG meetings in this area seem to be secret, no way to find out
about them until after the fact.
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:22:45 -0700, Robert Maas, ...wrote:
..& wrote and wrote and wrote.
You probably cannot get work becasue you bore
people to death. Go away Robert.
[ Follow-ups set to c.l.j.p. only ]
--
Andrew Thompson
physci.org 1point1c.org javasaver.com lensescapes.com athompson.info
"The rich getting richer, the poor get the picture."
Midnight Oil 'Read About It'
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
> Should I start charging you $60/hr for the time it takes me to rebut
> your stupid newsgroup postings??
Only if we can re-charge you back $120/hr for your whining Eeyore.
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <cmWAe.2394$R5.586@news.indigo.ie>
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: ·······@bcect.com (Michael Sullivan)
>> Programmers can't ask for minimum wage, because professional
>> programmers *don't* *get* *paid* *minimum* *wage*.
>
> Your comment is irrelevant because I don't ask for money from anyone,
> not minimum wage, not any amount whatsoever. It makes no sense
Do you think normal humans are sensible, logical?
(or at least naively logical like a programmer expects a computer to be
by default - often there is some sort of twisted logical system
governed by discernable rules that the terran scum <sorry> humans, are
acting within or marketing wouldn't work.)
There's your problem. A theory of computer-mind you might have for
dealing with computers won't work well with most humans without
significant rewriting.
You might want to read through the http://www.consumerpsychologist.com
pages.
e.g. from http://www.consumerpsychologist.com/price_response.htm
"""
Note that consumers often have few indicators of quality, so price may
be perceived as one of the better available cues.
"""
If you set your initial price too low you risk being perceived as low
quality. Prior to a sale, and even if your labour is the product for
sale, those perceptions really matter!
From: CliffMacGillivray
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <fLqGe.35362$hE4.18409@fe15.lga>
Not for nothing but you sound kinda nuts. Like, pretty mentally
unstable. Seriously, do you have social or mental health issues which
may be hindering your job search?
Michael Sullivan writes:
> Are you kidding me? The price per byte of source code is exactly zero.
> Nobody cares how much source you write. They care about what your
> program *does*.
It's like the old joke about the ocean-going vessel that broke down
at sea. The ship's engineer--no slouch--just couldn't identify the
problem, so they had to call for help.
Guy arrives on a helo, spends some time walking around the ship, takes
out a large wooden mallet and bangs on one particular pipe a few times.
Ship starts working, and the guy gives the Captain a bill for $10K.
"Ten thousand dollars," exclaims the Captain! But all you did was
pound on a pipe.
"Ah," replies the guy, "it's knowing where to pound."
--
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
In article <··································@4ax.com>,
·····@Sonnack.com says...
> Michael Sullivan writes:
>
> > Are you kidding me? The price per byte of source code is exactly zero.
> > Nobody cares how much source you write. They care about what your
> > program *does*.
>
> It's like the old joke about the ocean-going vessel that broke down
> at sea. The ship's engineer--no slouch--just couldn't identify the
> problem, so they had to call for help.
>
> Guy arrives on a helo, spends some time walking around the ship, takes
> out a large wooden mallet and bangs on one particular pipe a few times.
>
> Ship starts working, and the guy gives the Captain a bill for $10K.
>
> "Ten thousand dollars," exclaims the Captain! But all you did was
> pound on a pipe.
>
> "Ah," replies the guy, "it's knowing where to pound."
Probably based on a similar story about Picasso, who was asked to make
a drawing on a handkerchief. He did so, and was asked how much he
wanted for it. "10000 francs", said Picasso.
"But it only took you two minutes."
"No", said Picasso, "it took me thirty years."
- Gerry Quinn
From: Duane Bozarth
Subject: Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract?
Date:
Message-ID: <42D520DD.B27642D3@swko.dot.net>
Gerry Quinn wrote:
>
> In article <··································@4ax.com>,
> ·····@Sonnack.com says...
> > Michael Sullivan writes:
> >
> > > Are you kidding me? The price per byte of source code is exactly zero.
> > > Nobody cares how much source you write. They care about what your
> > > program *does*.
> >
> > It's like the old joke about the ocean-going vessel that broke down
> > at sea. The ship's engineer--no slouch--just couldn't identify the
> > problem, so they had to call for help.
> >
> > Guy arrives on a helo, spends some time walking around the ship, takes
> > out a large wooden mallet and bangs on one particular pipe a few times.
> >
> > Ship starts working, and the guy gives the Captain a bill for $10K.
> >
> > "Ten thousand dollars," exclaims the Captain! But all you did was
> > pound on a pipe.
> >
> > "Ah," replies the guy, "it's knowing where to pound."
>
> Probably based on a similar story about Picasso, who was asked to make
> a drawing on a handkerchief. He did so, and was asked how much he
> wanted for it. "10000 francs", said Picasso.
>
> "But it only took you two minutes."
>
> "No", said Picasso, "it took me thirty years."
>
No, it's a classic in which shows up in a million guises. The original
prototype supposedly was Westinghouse.