Just in case folks didn't see this:
---
Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
Programming
Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
programmatic entities -- like: <invoke-expr
method="myMethod"><evaluate>record</evaluate></invoke-expr>. Wacky, but
perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/18/2157249&tid=156
---
~T
taltman wrote:
> Just in case folks didn't see this:
>
> ---
>
> Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
> Programming
> Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
> from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
> gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
> proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
> XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
> indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
> programmatic entities -- like: <invoke-expr
> method="myMethod"><evaluate>record</evaluate></invoke-expr>. Wacky, but
> perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"
You are in good company in mis-applying Greenspun's Tenth here. The
tenth is about application code written in C or Fortran ad-hoccing Lisp.
The above is about a language (or at least a standard general-purpose
source tool) carefully adopting (not ad hoc) some Lisp feature.
What we have here is confirmation of Tilton's Observation, which is that
the Fortran evolutionary branch is growing towards the light over on the
Lisp side of the language tree.
kt
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> taltman wrote:
>
> > Just in case folks didn't see this:
> > ---
> > Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
> > Programming
> > Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
> > from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
> > gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
> > proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
> > XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
> > indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
> > programmatic entities -- like: <invoke-expr
> > method="myMethod"><evaluate>record</evaluate></invoke-expr>. Wacky, but
> > perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"
>
> You are in good company in mis-applying Greenspun's Tenth here. The
> tenth is about application code written in C or Fortran ad-hoccing
> Lisp.
>
> The above is about a language (or at least a standard general-purpose
> source tool) carefully adopting (not ad hoc) some Lisp feature.
>
> What we have here is confirmation of Tilton's Observation, which is
> that the Fortran evolutionary branch is growing towards the light over
> on the Lisp side of the language tree.
While the reticences of businesses to switch from FORTRAN or Cobol to
LISP might be understandable, why on earth would these people without
legacy applications need to take such small and convoluted steps to
evoluate toward Common-Lisp?
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
I need a new toy.
Tail of black dog keeps good time.
Pounce! Good dog! Good dog!
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>taltman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Just in case folks didn't see this:
>>>---
>>>Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
>>>Programming
>>>Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
>>>from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
>>>gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
>>>proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
>>>XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
>>>indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
>>>programmatic entities -- like: <invoke-expr
>>>method="myMethod"><evaluate>record</evaluate></invoke-expr>. Wacky, but
>>>perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"
>>
>>You are in good company in mis-applying Greenspun's Tenth here. The
>>tenth is about application code written in C or Fortran ad-hoccing
>>Lisp.
>>
>>The above is about a language (or at least a standard general-purpose
>>source tool) carefully adopting (not ad hoc) some Lisp feature.
>>
>>What we have here is confirmation of Tilton's Observation, which is
>>that the Fortran evolutionary branch is growing towards the light over
>>on the Lisp side of the language tree.
>
>
> While the reticences of businesses to switch from FORTRAN or Cobol to
> LISP might be understandable, why on earth would these people without
> legacy applications need to take such small and convoluted steps to
> evoluate toward Common-Lisp?
Well, there is this in common with Greenspun: they do not /know/ they
are implementing Lisp, nor do they know they are drifting towards Lisp.
If it is pointed out to them, or if, as in this case and others we have
seen, the heritage is made explicit, they still know Lisp is dead, Lisp
is slow, no one uses Lisp, etc etc.
Give them time. Look at cll. You can't put your foot down without
stepping on a newbie rugrat. Peter's book should kick off a firestorm,
and if Graham releases Arc... fuggedaboutit. Interestingly, it will be
the death of C++ and Scheme both, because Graham is after Scheme's thunder.
But it will be one of those binary deals, where the arrow spins pi
radians in an instant.
my2
kt
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
[...]
> Well, there is this in common with Greenspun: they do not /know/
> they are implementing Lisp, nor do they know they are drifting
> towards Lisp.
They know:
<http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=247&page=2>.
For some reason parentheses are evil and obsolete, but angle brackets
are absolutely wonderful and cutting-edge.
[...]
> Give them time. Look at cll. You can't put your foot down without
> stepping on a newbie rugrat. Peter's book should kick off a firestorm,
> and if Graham releases Arc... fuggedaboutit. Interestingly, it will be
> the death of C++ and Scheme both, because Graham is after Scheme's
> thunder.
I think Peter's book will have some impact (I'm intending to buy the
book when it comes out, anyway). Don't know about Arc---depends what
it's like, I'd guess.
Something that would make a difference would be reasonable
cross-platform (maybe cross-implementation) GUI stuff, with some
documentation, and preferably (depending on the nature of it, I guess)
a GUI builder. Don't know where something like that might come from,
though.
(Even commercial Lisps don't seem compelling to me, if you don't want
to develop on Windows: when I looked a day or two ago at Franz and
LispWorks it looked like LispWorks was the only one that would really
work for primarily GNU/Linux developers. I may be misunderstanding,
but it looked like Windows is the intended platform for creating GUIs,
even if that produces cross-platform Common Graphics code (which isn't
clear). I guess I should get an eval of LispWorks before ruling the
idea out entirely. My guess is we'll end up using some unholy mixture
of C# on Windows and Java on Unix. Or something. Quite possibly with
the GUIs themselves described in XML.)
Bruce Stephens wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>
>>Well, there is this in common with Greenspun: they do not /know/
>>they are implementing Lisp, nor do they know they are drifting
>>towards Lisp.
>
>
> They know:
> <http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=247&page=2>.
>
> For some reason parentheses are evil and obsolete, but angle brackets
> are absolutely wonderful and cutting-edge.
Oh, god yes, I forgot about those unreadable parentheses.
>
> [...]
>
>
>>Give them time. Look at cll. You can't put your foot down without
>>stepping on a newbie rugrat. Peter's book should kick off a firestorm,
>>and if Graham releases Arc... fuggedaboutit. Interestingly, it will be
>>the death of C++ and Scheme both, because Graham is after Scheme's
>>thunder.
>
>
> I think Peter's book will have some impact (I'm intending to buy the
> book when it comes out, anyway). Don't know about Arc---depends what
> it's like, I'd guess.
>
> Something that would make a difference would be reasonable
> cross-platform (maybe cross-implementation) GUI stuff, with some
> documentation, and preferably (depending on the nature of it, I guess)
> a GUI builder. Don't know where something like that might come from,
> though.
A portable Lisp GUI? I know only of three. :) But no builders. Bad idea
anyway, but that's a different flame.
>
> (Even commercial Lisps don't seem compelling to me, if you don't want
> to develop on Windows: when I looked a day or two ago at Franz and
> LispWorks it looked like LispWorks was the only one that would really
> work for primarily GNU/Linux developers. I may be misunderstanding,
> but it looked like Windows is the intended platform for creating GUIs,
> even if that produces cross-platform Common Graphics code (which isn't
> clear). I guess I should get an eval of LispWorks before ruling the
> idea out entirely. My guess is we'll end up using some unholy mixture
> of C# on Windows and Java on Unix. Or something. Quite possibly with
> the GUIs themselves described in XML.)
LispWorks's CAPI runs everywhere, but at the last Lispnyk meeting
someone said CAPI was ugly. I had never heard that before. Didn't get
the deets because just then a bouncer grabbed me and threw me in a
dumpster (not to worry, that is how all our meets end.)
If you want native, cells-gtk is what you want. If you want right-sexy,
gpu-accelerated, and undocumented, then Cello is your ticket.
kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
>>>>> "Kenny" == Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
Kenny> Bruce Stephens wrote:
>> <http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=247&page=2>.
This actually one of the better issues of ACM Queue. The interview
with Alan Kay is alone worth hunting down the issue for. Even if he
thinks that Lisp and smalltalk are obsolete, he still has lots of good
insights into what is going on with programming languages.
One interesting thing is that he explains the apparent popularity of
lesser languages from the point of view that we are having a
pop-culture, the inevitable result of pumping more people into the
field than we do education.
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech | christian ··@ defun #\. dk
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- ·······@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
Christian Lynbech <·········@defun.dk> writes:
[...]
> This actually one of the better issues of ACM Queue. The interview
> with Alan Kay is alone worth hunting down the issue for.
Free subscription, but no space for a country, so I'm guessing it's US
only. (Which is probably tricky to avoid; it seems to be funded by
advertising.) Never mind, maybe the interview will be put online one
day.
I enjoyed Kay's Stanford seminar about Croquet (there's a link from
this page <http://www.opencroquet.org/links.html>). Not so much for
the Croquet content (to be honest I don't see the point), but for the
extended rant against almost everything done in the last 30 years or
so in computer science which happens in the Q&A section.
>>>>> "BS" == Bruce Stephens <············@cenderis.demon.co.uk> writes:
[...]
BS> Free subscription, but no space for a country, so I'm guessing
BS> it's US only. [...]
Gets delivered here (Istanbul Turkey), no problem. I haven't quite
figured out why as I don't recall filling anything out. I think maybe
it gets sent to all acm members regardless of where they are. ACM isn't
that good at web stuff, it may be an oversight if the form is missing
fields.
cheers,
BM
Christian Lynbech <·········@defun.dk> writes:
>>>>>> "Kenny" == Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> Kenny> Bruce Stephens wrote:
>
>>> <http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=247&page=2>.
>
> Even if he thinks that Lisp and smalltalk are obsolete, he still has
> lots of good insights into what is going on with programming
> languages.
How can /that/ be?
> One interesting thing is that he explains the apparent popularity of
> lesser languages from the point of view that we are having a
> pop-culture, the inevitable result of pumping more people into the
> field than we do education.
I hope someone gives him a prize for such an eminently original
discovery.
> Give them time. Look at cll. You can't put your foot down without
> stepping on a newbie rugrat. Peter's book should kick off a firestorm,
> and if Graham releases Arc... fuggedaboutit. Interestingly, it will be
> the death of C++ and Scheme both, because Graham is after Scheme's thunder.
What is Peter's book?
Jon
----
Learn to program using Linux assembly language
http://www.cafeshops.com/bartlettpublish.8640017
Why do you care and when are you going to stop reading slashdot?
Misinformation for nerds, FUD is what matters
You better visit a cook recipes site.. At least you learn something new and
don't have to read idiotic linux zealots spreading their ignorance.