From: yello62
Subject: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1135748970.549497.99890@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
i am going to admit something from the start.  i am not a well-seasoned
developer.  my opportunities for coding have been few.  i've probably
written less-than 1000 lines of code.  most of that in perl, with some
vba, mumps, and sql thrown in for good measure, so my opinion may not
be relevant, but i'm going to ask my question, as we are allowed to do
on the internet.

i'm having difficulty framing the question.  my question and the thing
that i don't understand has to do with the use of lisp as a programming
language for "large" applications.  it appears that people have
difficulty understanding how it could be used.  much of the discussion
i see centers around providing ".exe" like applications that someone
can run from their desktop.  correct me if i'm wrong, but desktop
applications are not what i would consider large applications (unless
they're written in java, and then they're fricking huge!).

when i think of large, i think of the applications that were used in
the hospitals that i worked in.  patient management systems that handle
potentially hundreds of users at any given time and potentially
millions of records.  there are larger applications, i am sure, but my
exposure is in the health-care arena where the majority, the
overwhelming majority of applications are written in a language known
as "M" to those that code in the language and "mumps" to those who know
something about c.s. and such things.  the veterans admin's medical
application (Vista) application (as of today) is written in mumps.
three of the largest p.m.s.s are written in mumps (IDX, HBOC/McKesson,
Epic).

i am not a comp sci phd or a programming language expert, but from what
i know about mumps, it's about as unusual a language as you would want
to find, but it as an effective language for building large records
based systems and as such, does well with patient management systems.

i have no intent in bashing mumps.  i enjoyed what little programming i
did in the language.  it was challenging to make sense of the existing
code base that i made modifications to as well as trying to figure out
how to do anything with the language.  i'm using it as an example
because i've read some of the same arguments against mumps as i've read
about lisp.  but damned if it don't get the job done.

mumps is an interpreted language (supposedly providing slower response
times than compiled languages, which i believe is a reason given for
not using lisp).  it doesn't have a windowed environment as a native
part of the language (come to think of it, what programming language,
other than Tk does?).  it's got a screwy syntax (if you'd like a treat,
lookup the comp.lang.mumps group and search for "D $O").  and you can
place any of the arguments against lisp here because some of the same
arguments are used against lisp.  you think lispworks is expensive?
try getting your hands on a mumps environment (if memory serves,
although intersystems cache has free downloads for windows and linux,
they restrict user connections to one).

my question is this, why not lisp?  why not lisp for patient management
systems, why not lisp for banking systems, why not lisp for retail
systems?  i interviewed for a manufacturing company that wanted a mumps
programmer for a pos system, why not lisp for a pos system?

i'm not familiar with all of the software system out there and all of
the domain specific needs, but i have to believe that lisp has the
ability to address most needs as well as any other language as any, so
again i ask, why not lisp?

From: Tom Russ
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1135757318.630926.140030@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> mumps is an interpreted language (supposedly providing slower response times than compiled languages, which i believe is a reason given for not using lisp).

Well, this may be a reason, but it isn't a good one.  Lisp has been a
compiled language for longer than C++ has been in existence.  It is an
enduring myth though, but one which is regularly refuted here.

> my question is this, why not lisp?  why not lisp for patient management systems, why not lisp for banking systems, why not lisp for retail systems?  i interviewed for a manufacturing company that wanted a mumps programmer for a pos system, why not lisp for a pos system?

Well, there aren't very many technical reasons not to do this, and a
fair number of technical arguments in favor.  The main reason it isn't
done has to do with non-technical reasons of various kinds.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to elaborate tonight, but it often
boils down to Lisp not being popular, leading to management fear of (a)
the unknown (b) difficulty in finding lisp programmers to build and
especially maintain the system.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <41f7crF1duel5U2@individual.net>
Tom Russ wrote:
> Unfortunately, I don't have time to elaborate tonight, but it often
> boils down to Lisp not being popular, leading to management fear of (a)
> the unknown (b) difficulty in finding lisp programmers to build and
> especially maintain the system.

I'm not sure that the above are valid points, given that I've never even 
heard of Mumps (unless it's the name for some kind of disease), nor that 
there exist people who can program it.  Lisp is at least known to most 
people, even if they think it's a weird language.

-- 
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
	H. L. Mencken
From: yello62
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1135772259.540311.220920@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
"...given that I've never even
heard of Mumps (unless it's the name for some kind of disease), nor
that
there exist people who can program it..."

you see, that's somewhat my point.  mumps isn't well known outside the
community of people that program in it, and there is a pretty large
community.  the vista application is one of the largest open source
applications available.  it's being used in hospitals around the globe
for their patient management systems.  and like lisp programmers, mumps
programmers are zealous in their affection for their language.  it's
not popular, it's not even that well known, but it does what it does
well.  the organizations that use it don't worry with whether it's
popluar.  and they charge millions (at least the organizations that
sell commercial products developed in it) for their products.

and i guess that is my question.  i know there are organizations, large
organizations, paying large amounts of money for applications written
in a language that some folks have never heard of.  

why not lisp?
From: Pascal Bourguignon
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87d5jh4cll.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
"yello62" <·······@yahoo.com> writes:

> "...given that I've never even
> heard of Mumps (unless it's the name for some kind of disease), nor
> that
> there exist people who can program it..."
>
> you see, that's somewhat my point.  mumps isn't well known outside the
> community of people that program in it, and there is a pretty large
> community.  the vista application is one of the largest open source
> applications available.  it's being used in hospitals around the globe
> for their patient management systems.  and like lisp programmers, mumps
> programmers are zealous in their affection for their language.  it's
> not popular, it's not even that well known, but it does what it does
> well.  the organizations that use it don't worry with whether it's
> popluar.  and they charge millions (at least the organizations that
> sell commercial products developed in it) for their products.
>
> and i guess that is my question.  i know there are organizations, large
> organizations, paying large amounts of money for applications written
> in a language that some folks have never heard of.  
>
> why not lisp?

Why do you think not lisp?

Only the folks don't hear of lisp applications anymore than they hear
of mumps applications.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

"You can tell the Lisp programmers.  They have pockets full of punch
 cards with close parentheses on them." --> http://tinyurl.com/8ubpf
From: yello62
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <1135779189.850272.211530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> "yello62" <·······@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > "...given that I've never even
> > heard of Mumps (unless it's the name for some kind of disease), nor
> > that
> > there exist people who can program it..."
> >
> > you see, that's somewhat my point.  mumps isn't well known outside the
> > community of people that program in it, and there is a pretty large
> > community.  the vista application is one of the largest open source
> > applications available.  it's being used in hospitals around the globe
> > for their patient management systems.  and like lisp programmers, mumps
> > programmers are zealous in their affection for their language.  it's
> > not popular, it's not even that well known, but it does what it does
> > well.  the organizations that use it don't worry with whether it's
> > popluar.  and they charge millions (at least the organizations that
> > sell commercial products developed in it) for their products.
> >
> > and i guess that is my question.  i know there are organizations, large
> > organizations, paying large amounts of money for applications written
> > in a language that some folks have never heard of.
> >
> > why not lisp?
>
> Why do you think not lisp?
>
> Only the folks don't hear of lisp applications anymore than they hear
> of mumps applications.

i guess my question is to those folks that don't see lisp as providing
any value in the programming process.  i don't understand lisp all that
well, but it looks like a problem solver to me.  when i read in this
forum the question about using lisp for "real world" applications.
from what i've read, that seems to translate as gui desktop
application.  as i stated in my original post, i don't have a ton of
exposure outside of the healthcare domain, but i see lisp as being very
applicable in large, real-world applications.  i'm thinking of the
examples that are usually provided for lisp applications (Viaweb, CAD
systems, et al) and they are huge, real world problem solving
applications.  as my understanding grows both of lisp and the
programming process, i envision using this language to try to address
some of those large real world problem type stuffesses using lisp.  if
i ever get there...
From: Rob Warnock
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <-JednTphXo1pFS_eRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net>
Ulrich Hobelmann  <···········@web.de> wrote:
+---------------
| Tom Russ wrote:
| > Unfortunately, I don't have time to elaborate tonight, but it often
| > boils down to Lisp not being popular, leading to management fear of (a)
| > the unknown (b) difficulty in finding lisp programmers to build and
| > especially maintain the system.
| 
| I'm not sure that the above are valid points, given that I've never even 
| heard of Mumps (unless it's the name for some kind of disease), nor that 
| there exist people who can program it.  Lisp is at least known to most 
| people, even if they think it's a weird language.
+---------------

MUMPS [Massachusetts (General Hospital) Utility Multi-Programming System]
is now called simply "M" (the name change came during the ANSI standard-
ization process). <http://www.mcenter.com/mtrc/mfaqhtm1.html#Hist>
has some historical notes. One commercial version was MIIS (Meditech
Interactive Information System); another was DEC PDP-11 MUMPS; there
also are/were several free versions, since it was originally funded by
an NIH(?) grant which required that it be public domain. For quite a
number of years, it was *the* language to use for hospital information
systems, and still has a number of devotees today. For more background,
see <http://www.mcenter.com/mtrc/whatism.html>.

One of the reasons for its popularity [besides NIH & the VA practically
*mandating* it for a while for funded projects!] was that "global"
variables in MUMPS -- which are a kind of tree-structured associative
array [usually stored as B-trees] -- are actually stored in a database
on disk, one of the earliest (1966) languages with an "implicit object
store" that I know of.

The Wikipedia article <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS> contains
a lot more of the history, lists key language features, has some
code examples, and a number of frequent criticisms of the language.
Lispers will instantly recognize several of them:   ;-}

- "The syntax and terms are dramatically different from C."

- "Unusual control constructs."

- "Skilled programmers are hard to find and even harder to replace
  when they retire."


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607
From: Pascal Bourguignon
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <87lky54hkc.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:

> Tom Russ wrote:
>> Unfortunately, I don't have time to elaborate tonight, but it often
>> boils down to Lisp not being popular, leading to management fear of (a)
>> the unknown (b) difficulty in finding lisp programmers to build and
>> especially maintain the system.
>
> I'm not sure that the above are valid points, given that I've never
> even heard of Mumps (unless it's the name for some kind of disease),
> nor that there exist people who can program it.  Lisp is at least
> known to most people, even if they think it's a weird language.

Well, it's known enough to have a 99-bottles program:
http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-mumps-415.html

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
The rule for today:
Touch my tail, I shred your hand.
New rule tomorrow.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <41fp1iF1e2q45U1@individual.net>
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> 
>> Tom Russ wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, I don't have time to elaborate tonight, but it often
>>> boils down to Lisp not being popular, leading to management fear of (a)
>>> the unknown (b) difficulty in finding lisp programmers to build and
>>> especially maintain the system.
>> I'm not sure that the above are valid points, given that I've never
>> even heard of Mumps (unless it's the name for some kind of disease),
>> nor that there exist people who can program it.  Lisp is at least
>> known to most people, even if they think it's a weird language.
> 
> Well, it's known enough to have a 99-bottles program:
> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-mumps-415.html

Wow, couldn't tell it from a program in Perl or J.

-- 
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
	H. L. Mencken
From: Coby Beck
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <xj_sf.21107$m05.9252@clgrps12>
"Pascal Bourguignon" <····@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message 
···················@thalassa.informatimago.com...
>
> Well, it's known enough to have a 99-bottles program:
> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-mumps-415.html

I still think this one takes first place by a long shot!

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/3b3058f737cd38de?hl=en&

-- 
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <Pw2tf.27465$i1.25510@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com>
Coby Beck wrote:
> "Pascal Bourguignon" <····@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message 
> ···················@thalassa.informatimago.com...
> 
>>Well, it's known enough to have a 99-bottles program:
>>http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-mumps-415.html
> 
> 
> I still think this one takes first place by a long shot!
> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/3b3058f737cd38de?hl=en&
> 

Yes, indeed. And it is on that site under "Common Lisp":

    http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-common-lisp-114.html

Priceless. Oh, that Fred. :)

kt
From: Geoffrey Summerhayes
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <Kjftf.6674$l87.774442@news20.bellglobal.com>
"Kenny Tilton" <·············@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message 
·························@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
>
> Yes, indeed. And it is on that site under "Common Lisp":
>
>    http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-common-lisp-114.html
>
> Priceless. Oh, that Fred. :)
>

Hey! What am I, chopped liver?
Every time I see a reference, it's Kent's program, now it's Fred's.
I hate you guys so much.
Screw you guys, I'm going home.
     _._
  .-'---'-.
 /___\_/___\
|   (.I.)   |
 \   ___   /
  '._____.'

--
Geoff 
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <Axhtf.28233$i1.21889@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com>
Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote:
> "Kenny Tilton" <·············@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message 
> ·························@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
> 
>>Yes, indeed. And it is on that site under "Common Lisp":
>>
>>   http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-common-lisp-114.html
>>
>>Priceless. Oh, that Fred. :)
>>
> 
> 
> Hey! What am I, chopped liver?
> Every time I see a reference, it's Kent's program, now it's Fred's.


<g> Your comment in the code:

   ;; Original idea and primary coding by Geoff Summerhayes
   ;;   <·······@hotmail.com>
   ;; Formatting idea by Fred Gilham <······@snapdragon.csl.sri.com>
   ;; Actual formatting & minor recoding by Kent M Pitman
   ;;   <······@world.std.com>

Was something other than the formatting idea "priceless"ly funny? :)

> I hate you guys so much.
> Screw you guys, I'm going home.
>      _._
>   .-'---'-.
>  /___\_/___\
> |   (.I.)   |
>  \   ___   /
>   '._____.'

Oh my god, you kill me.

kenny

ps. Hey, I did throw in a "True GEEK" scoring for you.
From: Geoffrey Summerhayes
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <cgzuf.1488$H37.219531@news20.bellglobal.com>
"Kenny Tilton" <·············@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message 
·························@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
> Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote:
>
> Was something other than the formatting idea "priceless"ly funny? :)
>

(melodramatically) Ha ha! Save your feeble excuses for someone rational.

>> I hate you guys so much.
>> Screw you guys, I'm going home.
>>      _._
>>   .-'---'-.
>>  /___\_/___\
>> |   (.I.)   |
>>  \   ___   /
>>   '._____.'
>
> Oh my god, you kill me.
>
> kenny

Old school, once an episode, no hot chocolate mixes, thank you.

> ps. Hey, I did throw in a "True GEEK" scoring for you.

No such thing as bad publicity, it jumped 11 places in the hot list
after this series of posts. :)

--
Geoff 
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <bz2vf.32783$Ed.22432@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com>
Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote:
> "Kenny Tilton" <·············@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message 
>>ps. Hey, I did throw in a "True GEEK" scoring for you.
> 
> 
> No such thing as bad publicity, it jumped 11 places in the hot list
> after this series of posts. :)

Priceless. You are surprised? Back to the temple, grasshopper.

kt
From: John Thingstad
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <op.s2l6etnlpqzri1@mjolner.upc.no>
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:50:15 +0100, Geoffrey Summerhayes  
<·············@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> "Kenny Tilton" <·············@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
> ·························@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
>>
>> Yes, indeed. And it is on that site under "Common Lisp":
>>
>>    http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-common-lisp-114.html
>>
>> Priceless. Oh, that Fred. :)
>>
>
> Hey! What am I, chopped liver?
> Every time I see a reference, it's Kent's program, now it's Fred's.
> I hate you guys so much.
> Screw you guys, I'm going home.
>      _._
>   .-'---'-.
>  /___\_/___\
> |   (.I.)   |
>  \   ___   /
>   '._____.'
>
> --
> Geoff
>
>

lol.. Happy new year Geoff..
You are not the only one..


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
From: Fred Gilham
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <u7sls3sbbs.fsf@snapdragon.csl.sri.com>
Those that can, do.  Those that can't, make priceless suggestions.

-- 
Fred Gilham                                         ······@csl.sri.com
There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to
govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
                                                  --- Daniel Webster
From: Lars Brinkhoff
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <85bqytmu8j.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
"Tom Russ" <···@isi.edu> writes:
> Lisp has been a compiled language for longer than C++ has been in
> existence.

Much, much longer.  As far as I can tell, Lisp compilers predate most
of C++'s lineage, including C, B, and BCPL.  Maybe not CPL.
From: Karl A. Krueger
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <dpfisb$phh$1@baldur.whoi.edu>
Lars Brinkhoff <·········@nocrew.org> wrote:
> "Tom Russ" <···@isi.edu> writes:
>> Lisp has been a compiled language for longer than C++ has been in
>> existence.
> 
> Much, much longer.  As far as I can tell, Lisp compilers predate most
> of C++'s lineage, including C, B, and BCPL.  Maybe not CPL.

According to Wikipedia, CPL was published in 1963.  Hart and Levin
published AI MEMO 39, on the first self-hosting compiler (written in
Lisp, to compile Lisp) in 1962.  I believe Hart and Levin's was not the
first Lisp compiler.

-- 
Karl A. Krueger <········@example.edu> { s/example/whoi/ }
From: Peder O. Klingenberg
Subject: Re: something i don't understand...
Date: 
Message-ID: <ksvex5cqh7.fsf@beto.netfonds.no>
"yello62" <·······@yahoo.com> writes:

> why not lisp for banking systems,

My employer, Netfonds, is now officially a bank, and virtually all of
our systems are written in Lisp.  So your implication that Lisp is not
used for banking systems is not universally true.

...Peder...
-- 
I wish a new life awaited _me_ in some off-world colony.