The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
(equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
Lisp's honor to head over to /.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
>The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already
I rather enjoyed some of them. This one for example:
=================================
There was a story of a hacker stole one of the A.I code from the
government. The code turned out to be the last 100 pages of the
program. It was all closing paranthesis. That should sum up how nasty
the language is.
=================================
I wonder if anyone actually codes like that. Imagine how long a
function would have to be in order to get more than one line worth of
parentheses in a row.
"Eric Lavigne" <············@gmail.com> writes:
> >The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already
>
> I rather enjoyed some of them. This one for example:
>
> =================================
> There was a story of a hacker stole one of the A.I code from the
> government. The code turned out to be the last 100 pages of the
> program. It was all closing paranthesis. That should sum up how nasty
> the language is.
> =================================
>
> I wonder if anyone actually codes like that. Imagine how long a
> function would have to be in order to get more than one line worth of
> parentheses in a row.
It all started when god said:
(let ((light (make-light)) ...) ...)
And the entire universe was contained in the LET form.
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
No excuses. No apologies. Just do it.
--- Erik Naggum
From: Tiarnán Ó Corráin
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp reviewed on /.
Date:
Message-ID: <m2fyx7sks7.fsf@Cascade.local>
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> It all started when god said:
>
> (let ((light (make-light)) ...) ...)
>
> And the entire universe was contained in the LET form.
Ah, but what is the lexical environment for the "let"?
--
Tiarn�n
Tiarn�n � Corr�in wrote:
> David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
>
>>It all started when god said:
>>
>>(let ((light (make-light)) ...) ...)
>>
>>And the entire universe was contained in the LET form.
>
>
> Ah, but what is the lexical environment for the "let"?
Fool. It is turtlets all the way up.
kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Tiarn�n � Corr�in wrote:
>> David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
>>
>>> It all started when god said:
>>>
>>> (let ((light (make-light)) ...) ...)
>>>
>>> And the entire universe was contained in the LET form.
>> Ah, but what is the lexical environment for the "let"?
>
> Fool. It is turtlets all the way up.
You mean the universe is implemented in Logo, not Lisp?
Yikes!
--
Gareth McCaughan
.sig under construc
Gareth McCaughan <················@pobox.com> wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>> Fool. It is turtlets all the way up.
>
> You mean the universe is implemented in Logo, not Lisp?
> Yikes!
perhaps Kenny means "Turtles all the way down" :-)
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/T/Tu/Turtles_all_the_way_down.htm
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss wrote:
> Gareth McCaughan <················@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Kenny Tilton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Fool. It is turtlets all the way up.
>>
>>You mean the universe is implemented in Logo, not Lisp?
>>Yikes!
>
>
> perhaps Kenny means "Turtles all the way down" :-)
>
> http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/T/Tu/Turtles_all_the_way_down.htm
>
Wow, that is a terrible version! The lady is supposed to say the first
turtle is standing on the back of another turtle. Then she is asked on
what /that/ turtle stands, and she replies, "It's no use, young man, it
is turtles all the way down."
Of course, with lexical scope it is all the way up. Or is it out?
kt
--
Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Peter Seibel wrote:
> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
> Lisp's honor to head over to /.
>
> -Peter
>
I say screw them.. Nobody cares about brainwashed people. They're
nothing but meat for ibm/apple/google PR departments. Let them live a
"happy life" full of java and unix.
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:20:50 +0100, Puhat wrote:
> Peter Seibel wrote:
>> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the (equally
>> predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an oxymoron".
>> Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend Lisp's honor
>> to head over to /.
>>
>> -Peter
>>
>>
> I say screw them.. Nobody cares about brainwashed people. They're
> nothing but meat for ibm/apple/google PR departments. Let them live a
> "happy life" full of java and unix.
Success is the best revenge.
Puhat <·····@ph.com> writes:
> I say screw them.. Nobody cares about brainwashed people. They're nothing but
> meat for ibm/apple/google PR departments. Let them live a "happy life" full of
> java and unix.
I'm curious. What do you consider to be a better system than Unix? The only
other workstation operating system I know of is NT, and IMO the current version
of NT (Windows XP) is not a patch on some of the current Unix-like systems
(Debian/Knoppix/Ubuntu).
--
Trent Buck, Student Errant
+ Trent Buck <·········@gmail.com>:
| I'm curious. What do you consider to be a better system than Unix?
| The only other workstation operating system I know of is NT [...]
Well, I think some people are still running OS/2. And I know several
who are still running MacOS (versions before 10, eh, X). Plus
whatever the Lisp Machines are running. Better than Unix you say?
Try reading the Unix haters' handbook. Oh, I use Unix myself, and
don't see anything better on the horizon that I can use as easily, but
it's also not hard to imagine something much better. Imaginary OSes
won't run my computers, however. ...
--
* Harald Hanche-Olsen <URL:http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/>
- Debating gives most of us much more psychological satisfaction
than thinking does: but it deprives us of whatever chance there is
of getting closer to the truth. -- C.P. Snow
From: André Thieme
Subject: Re: Practical Common Lisp reviewed on /.
Date:
Message-ID: <d4rnsm$s8q$1@ulric.tng.de>
Peter Seibel schrieb:
> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
> Lisp's honor to head over to /.
These postings over there are so amusing. All these wannabe experts
explaining the curious reader what Lisp really is and how it really
works ;-) Such a bs *g*
Andr�
--
Peter Seibel wrote:
> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
> Lisp's honor to head over to /.
>
> -Peter
>
I just can't be bothered to even read /. these days, much less take part
in discussions. It has degenerated into a site where the news is old
and the discussion peurile. Even the people I know who still look at it
for 'news' don't look at the discussion threads.
I prefer to read 'The Register' (www.theregister.co.uk) for my tech news
these days. Before I stopped looking at /. it seemed like I had seen
the interesting stories there first anyway.
Barry.
* Peter Seibel:
> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> oxymoron".
Most of the high-ranked comments are surprisingly positive, given the
claims over here that most programmers are just too stupid to see the
value of Lisp. 8-)
Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
> Lisp's honor to head over to /.
"non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa"[*] - Dante Alighieri, "La
Divina Commedia", Inferno, Canto 1.
Paolo
P.S.
Lame translation: don't bother with them, move along.
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> writes:
> Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
>
>> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
>> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
>> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
>> Lisp's honor to head over to /.
>
> "non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa"[*] - Dante Alighieri, "La
> Divina Commedia", Inferno, Canto 1.
>
>
> Paolo
>
> P.S.
> Lame translation: don't bother with them, move along.
Probably good advice. On the other hand, it turns out /. still has
some clout--PCL's Amazon Sales Rank, which was at 2,771 just before
the review appeared, is back in the three-digit range, and within 40
or so of it's best ever, presumably thanks to appearing on /. (and
subsequent diffusion of chatter via del.icio.us and bloggers who saw
it on /.) Interesting.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@gigamonkeys.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Peter Seibel wrote:
> Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> writes:
>
>
>>Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
>>>(equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
>>>oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
>>>Lisp's honor to head over to /.
>>
>>"non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa"[*] - Dante Alighieri, "La
>>Divina Commedia", Inferno, Canto 1.
>>
>>
>>Paolo
>>
>>P.S.
>>Lame translation: don't bother with them, move along.
>
>
> Probably good advice. On the other hand, it turns out /. still has
> some clout--PCL's Amazon Sales Rank, which was at 2,771 just before
> the review appeared, is back in the three-digit range, and within 40
> or so of it's best ever, presumably thanks to appearing on /. (and
> subsequent diffusion of chatter via del.icio.us and bloggers who saw
> it on /.) Interesting.
Possibly validating that old Hollywood adage: "There's no such thing
as bad publicity."
Larry
Laurence Kramer wrote:
<snip>
>
>
> Possibly validating that old Hollywood adage: "There's no such thing
> as bad publicity."
>
How does that other adage go? Grossly paraphrased as "All that is
necessary for bad languages to succeed is for good languages to do
nothing." Did anyone know if Edmund Burke was a Lisp advocate?
Delurk...
On 29/04 11:41:02, Peter Seibel wrote:
> Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> writes:
> > Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
> >> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> >> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> >> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to
> >> defend Lisp's honor to head over to /.
[ snip ]
> > P.S.
> > Lame translation: don't bother with them, move along.
>
> Probably good advice. On the other hand, it turns out /. still has
> some clout--PCL's Amazon Sales Rank, which was at 2,771 just before
> the review appeared, is back in the three-digit range, and within 40
> or so of it's best ever, presumably thanks to appearing on /.
Cool.
Whatever else you can say about slashdot (and there's certainly a lot
of negative things you can say, some of them even true), there are a
_lot_ of geekpeople (or semi- or proto-geek people) that read it. And
some of them even have money and like to buy interesting books. :)
I thought the review was pretty decent. And while there were a few
ill-informed comments, there's also a lot of people smacking them
down. And a few more people making some comments interesting in their
own right (or at least interesting IMHO - sometimes an outsider's POV
can be worth reading).
But ah well. Slashdot follows Sturgeon's Law too, surprise surprise. :)
> (and subsequent diffusion of chatter via del.icio.us and bloggers
> who saw it on /.) Interesting.
I'm still patiently waiting for the copy I ordered a while back to
arrive at my local technical bookstore. I might have to give them a
call tomorrow and find out what's taking so long. It's probably there
and the bastards just forgot to tell me. :-/
> -Peter
Pete.
--
http://akira.apana.org.au/~pete/
All programmers are optimists. Perhaps this modern sorcery especially attracts
those who believe in happy endings and fairy godmothers. Perhaps the hundreds
of nitty frustrations drive away all but those who habitually focus on the end
goal. Perhaps it is merely that computers are young, programmers are younger,
and the young are always optimists. But however the selection process works,
the result is indisputable: "This time it will surely run," or "I just found
the last bug." -- Frederick Brooks, "The Mythical Man Month"
Peter Wright wrote:
> On 29/04 11:41:02, Peter Seibel wrote:
> > Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> writes:
> > > Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
> > >> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> > >> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> > >> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to
> > >> defend Lisp's honor to head over to /.
> [ snip ]
> > > P.S.
> > > Lame translation: don't bother with them, move along.
> >
> > Probably good advice. On the other hand, it turns out /. still has
> > some clout--PCL's Amazon Sales Rank, which was at 2,771 just before
> > the review appeared, is back in the three-digit range, and within
> > 40 or so of it's best ever, presumably thanks to appearing on /.
>
> Whatever else you can say about slashdot (and there's certainly a lot
> of negative things you can say, some of them even true), there are a
> _lot_ of geekpeople (or semi- or proto-geek people) that read it. And
> some of them even have money and like to buy interesting books. :)
They seemed overall smart to me. There were some arrogant blowhards
(like in any forum), but many were honestly curious and properly
skeptical.
That is, they rejected overly ideological reasons why Lisp is of use to
them, but accepted reasonable ones.
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/28/1936206
Peter Wright <····@flooble.net> wrote:
> I thought the review was pretty decent.
thanks. English is not my native language, but Tim, the Slashdot editor,
corrected some of my grammatical errors before publishing it :-)
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss wrote:
> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/28/1936206
>
>
> Peter Wright <····@flooble.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I thought the review was pretty decent.
>
>
> thanks. English is not my native language, but Tim, the Slashdot editor,
> corrected some of my grammatical errors before publishing it :-)
>
What a rare occasion. Slashdot's headlines are usually full of
grammatical and punctuation, even spelling, errors. :)
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Frank Buss wrote:
> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/28/1936206
>
> thanks. English is not my native language, but Tim, the Slashdot editor,
> corrected some of my grammatical errors before publishing it :-)
>
I really enjoyed the review and comments afterwards, but next time you
plan on getting me slashdotted, could you send me an email first so i
can watch it happen :)
72000 + hits from that slashdot article on a cliki using a serve-event
listener on a UML instance with 128mb RAM, and it stayed solid... Lisp
is "practical" indeed :)
Anyways, great review Frank, great book Peter, great software Dan B.,
great language John M. et al. :)
--
Drew Crampsie
drewc at tech dot coop
"Never mind the bollocks -- here's the sexp's tools."
-- Karl A. Krueger on comp.lang.lisp
drewc <·····@rift.com> writes:
> I really enjoyed the review and comments afterwards, but next time you
> plan on getting me slashdotted, could you send me an email first so i
> can watch it happen :)
>
> 72000 + hits from that slashdot article on a cliki using a serve-event
> listener on a UML instance with 128mb RAM, and it stayed solid... Lisp
> is "practical" indeed :)
You may post this comment to Slashdot's PCL thread.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> drewc <·····@rift.com> writes:
>>
>>72000 + hits from that slashdot article on a cliki using a serve-event
>>listener on a UML instance with 128mb RAM, and it stayed solid... Lisp
>>is "practical" indeed :)
>
>
> You may post this comment to Slashdot's PCL thread.
I did, of course, but the genius that is slashdot's moderation has kept
me well below the radar of anybody who cares. :)
drewc
--
Drew Crampsie
drewc at tech dot coop
"Never mind the bollocks -- here's the sexp's tools."
-- Karl A. Krueger on comp.lang.lisp
Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
> Probably good advice. On the other hand, it turns out /. still has
> some clout--PCL's Amazon Sales Rank, which was at 2,771 just before
> the review appeared, is back in the three-digit range, and within 40
> or so of it's best ever, presumably thanks to appearing on /. (and
> subsequent diffusion of chatter via del.icio.us and bloggers who saw
> it on /.) Interesting.
Well, I meant to not bother with their opinions--it's better to
concentrate on their pockets :)
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Peter Seibel <·····@gigamonkeys.com> writes:
> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
> Lisp's honor to head over to /.
You really should be blaming Frank Buss for not only writing a nice
review of your book, but also getting front page coverage of /.
Anyway, now is the time to see if there really is no such thing as bad
publicity. And perhaps now that individual who was saying Lisp needed
more marketing will be happy.
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
No excuses. No apologies. Just do it.
--- Erik Naggum
This is so sad. I guess I won't even reply...
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=147701&cid=12400979
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> This is so sad. I guess I won't even reply...
>
> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=147701&cid=12400979
>
My approach to things like this is not to get worked up over the other
person's issues, but to stay "on message". Do not worry about errors or
illogic or inconsistency or mischaracterization by the other, just
selectively pick a few quotes you can use as a springboard to sing the
praises of Lisp (or whatever you want to sing about). This is a public
forum, and your antagonist may be beyond help. Whatever you say is for
the lurkers. Tit-for-tat just encourages bozos, but a consistently
patient, positive message that ignores their deliberate obfuscations
quickly drives them off. You will know you are succeeding when decent
folk jump in for clarifications of some point you made.
If that fails, hunt them down and kill them.
hth, kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> If that fails, hunt them down and kill them.
Is it because if that fails, hunt them down and kill them that you
came to me?
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
No excuses. No apologies. Just do it.
--- Erik Naggum
David Steuber wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>If that fails, hunt them down and kill them.
>
>
> Is it because if that fails, hunt them down and kill them that you
> came to me?
>
Lisp is great! Macros, CLOS, special variables, even LOOP!
:)
kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
Peter Seibel wrote:
> The Lithp jokes have (predictably) started already as have the
> (equally predictable) responses of "Practical Common Lisp is an
> oxymoron". Anyway, might be a good time for folks who want to defend
> Lisp's honor to head over to /.
Before this, I never tried Lisp, but this /. article perked my interest.
Now I've started learning it, and even ordered the book. I'm very
impressed with this language - I've been (and still am) a Java advocate,
but I really didn't have a clue what I was missing.
I like the strategy of making the book available online - I probably
wouldn't have bought it otherwise.
--
Morten
Morten Alver <······@invalid.no> writes:
> Before this, I never tried Lisp, but this /. article perked my interest.
> Now I've started learning it, and even ordered the book. I'm very
> impressed with this language - I've been (and still am) a Java advocate,
> but I really didn't have a clue what I was missing.
When you are done or almost done with the book, and you feel
sufficiently comfortable with the material, it will be interesting to
know your opinion on Lisp, e.g. whether you will still be impressed,
or maybe disappointed.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> Morten Alver <······@invalid.no> writes:
>>Before this, I never tried Lisp, but this /. article perked my interest.
>>Now I've started learning it, and even ordered the book. I'm very
>>impressed with this language - I've been (and still am) a Java advocate,
>>but I really didn't have a clue what I was missing.
>
> When you are done or almost done with the book, and you feel
> sufficiently comfortable with the material, it will be interesting to
> know your opinion on Lisp, e.g. whether you will still be impressed,
> or maybe disappointed.
Yes, it happens sometimes that a good first impression fades when you
look closer into things. Maybe I'll post some further impressions after
a while.
--
Morten